 You can get a vegan burger, you can find vegan food, pretty easy, you know, you look pretty privileged here, you know, starving and having to hunt or anything like that. So you can make that choice, but when you don't make that choice, you're choosing to abuse animals. Yeah, I can. You can prove me wrong, mate. Being fish is cruelty to animals. That's my, that's my position. I'm saying it's cruel to eat fish. Would you like to talk about it, mate? Your argument is they're already dead? You can all come here, I don't care. Sit down, mate. YouTube, it's just YouTube. I like having discussions with people. How old are you, mate? 15. I remember when I was 15, man. I'm 34 now. But anyways, you're saying if the fish is already dead, it's not really cruelty to animals? Is that what you're saying? Not really, no. Because it's already dead. There's no point for chucking it back in the water. We should just use it for our resources. Okay, yeah? So like, if there was like a bird that had, you know, died a natural death and was on the ground and you ate that bird, that wouldn't be cruelty to animals, right? Well, no. But I wouldn't really eat the bird. That's your position. That's what you're trying to say. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. You know, if it was dead, yeah. But I wouldn't personally eat a bird myself. But if I was actually like, you know, starving, then I wouldn't even... We eat birds. You eat chickens. Yeah. Yeah, so you eat dead birds all the time? Yeah, that's right. Every single day. I'm all right with that, yeah. But what I'm talking about, right, when I'm saying eating fish, is like, where do you usually get your fish from? Soup. No, no, where do you... Do you go into the... Oh, no, I go to the supermarket. You go to the supermarket? Okay, so that's what I'm talking about. That's where most of you get your fish from, eh? Yeah. Yeah, most of the fish you eat, you... Yeah, fish and chip. Yeah, fish and chip shop. Yeah, okay. A bit of a veg, I would say. You're a bit of a veg? Okay, cool to hear. Good to hear. Yeah. Like, basically you're going to put your money into the fishing industry, yeah? Yeah. And what happens in the fishing industry? They kill the fish. Yeah. They don't just kill them. They cause immense suffering to the fish first, and then they die. Yeah. I'm not sure about that. You're not sure about the suffering that happens to fish? What aren't you sure about? Let's talk about it. You don't think fish just suffer when they're dragged out of the ocean? Not really. Yeah, like, you know, I don't really see much harm in that. Well, let's just say, tuna, they get a massive hook in their face, don't they? Yeah. No. Who told you fish can't feel pain? I don't know, age ago. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, that's actually been scientifically proven wrong. Fish have a central nervous system, a brain. They react to noxious stimuli, which is like pain. If you harm a fish and then give them, like, numbing cream, they won't act the same. They do react to pain. But fish have a biological mechanism to escape pain. So, like, they'll try to escape a predator. If you try to stab a fish, they'll try to escape that pain and they'll suffer. But, like, let's just say, like, there's a big trawling net. You know what a trawling net is? They drag up tons of fish from the bottom of the ocean. And then they dump them on the deck of a boat, right? Yeah. And all the fish that are underneath there, they're suffocating and they're being crushed by a tons of other fish. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, do you think the act of, like, suffocating to death is suffering? Well, I wouldn't say suffering. I'd say more, like, suffering is, you know, being brutalised, like, you know, being bashed or something like that. But if it's for maybe a good four seconds and then you're out, I think, yeah. Well, they suffer for a lot longer than that. This is a fish being stabbed in the head? Well, I wouldn't really... Do you think cutting their gills and that causes them harm? Pain? Yeah, but, you know... You think that's cruelty? Would you say that's animal cruelty? Yeah. Okay, so you agree with the sign then? Ah, I mean, yeah, partially, yeah. Well, I don't really like seeing it. I reckon it's, like, it's cruelty a little bit. Oh, yeah, yeah, it is, but, like... A little bit? Oh, no, I'd say this. Probably the most cruel things we do to animals happen on boats to animals. Well, not really, because, you know, there's still, in Africa, people shooting animals with arrows. If they don't get those, you know, if they don't get those animals, they're walking around with bows and with arrows in them their whole life. So I wouldn't really say it's the most cruelest thing that we've done. I just don't really... Yeah. Well, let me just tell you about, like, what were you gonna say before we cut you off there? What were you gonna say? I was gonna say it's pretty cruel, but, like, I don't think it's the end of the world. Not for you, because you're not the victim, are you? You don't have a hook in your face, do you? Yeah. Yeah, you're not suffocating on a boat deck, are you? I don't think I'll ever be a fish. But I'm asking you to empathize with other victims. Like, if you've seen a kid getting their head kicked in. Yeah, because you can empathize with that kid. I'm asking you to empathize with a different species. You know what I mean? Like, it's not the end of the world for you, but for the 2.7 trillion animals that are killed in the oceans every year, it's a big deal for them. But if it's going to, like, a good use where, like, say, like, someone that doesn't have a lot of food is getting it, it's cruel, but at least it's going towards a good use. Like, it's cruel, but it's also helping someone else out. What are you... What are you... We could talk about that. But let me just answer your question here of, like, it's fine if it's cruel as long as it goes to people to eat. Yeah. Is that your position? Yeah, like, maybe, like, you know, like, people that can't get a lot of food. Yeah. If it's going to them, then, like, at least it's going towards a good use. I don't know. Yeah, okay. Like, have you thought that through? Are you consistent with that? Like, if it's cruel, it's okay if it's going to people who need food? If you need the food, and they're killing it, it's like, well, they have to get their food one way or the other. Yeah, okay. Are you talking about survival? Yeah. Okay. A bit different, but, like, yeah, like, so... Like, do you need to eat fish? Are you in a survival situation now? No. Okay. So what if it's cruel and you don't need to do it? What do you think about that? I mean, yeah, I guess it's cruel, yeah. So it's just needless cruelty? I will say, you do have to actually eat meat. This is all about meat. You actually do have to eat meat as you're a kid. You can do it when you're actually, like, you can eat, you know, vegetables for your life when you're actually, like, an owl. But it's actually been scientifically proven that you have to actually eat meat to keep yourself alive, to keep your, you know, your immune system, stuff like that, to actually be alive. So you're saying that scientists have now proven that you can't be a plant-based child? No, you can't. Okay, because what will happen to you? Because your whole immune system will just shut down. So you're saying that kids, if kids don't eat fish or animals, they'll actually die. I wouldn't say kids, preferably. I'm saying, like, you know, kids between, like, literally newborns. Well, let's say a newborn and a toddler. What do newborns eat? Well, you know, they eat milk. Mother's milk, yeah? Yeah, mother's milk, yeah. Not from a cow, mother's milk's ideal food for them. And they can breastfeed for how long? I'm not sure, maybe like an hour or so, I'm not sure. Okay, so what did this study actually say that you're sighting here? Well, no, it's just saying that they actually have to eat meat and they actually have to consider it. What is it, what is it in meat that they need? They need the, um, yeah, the protein and the carbs in there. Protein, there's no carbs in meat, by the way, brother. Well, there's a, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can't get protein, so protein is the essential nutrient that growing children need? Yeah. Okay, do you think there's protein in plants? Yeah. Yeah, but still. So why can't we get protein from plants? Because it's not enough for them. It's actually not enough. How much does a baby need? Well, I'm not really. So you're saying a full-grown adult can eat just vegetables, right? But a little kid needs way more protein than a full-grown adult. Yeah, because they're growing. Yeah. So how much protein does a kid need? I'm not sure. You don't know. Do you know? Yeah, well, it's less than what an adult needs, isn't it? Well, yeah, I would know that. But would you know that? Think an average adult just that doesn't train needs about 50 grams to sustain a normal body weight without, like, extra 50 grams. I think I have a question. But we'll get to that. I just want to get this protein because you think that kids need to kill animals to grow or they'll die, basically, and you're citing some study that I've never heard of. Yeah. How long are we talking? No, literally, like newborns. Newborns have mother's milk, yeah? Because my niece, she's five, and she's a vegan. Yeah, she's been vegan her whole life, yeah? Yeah. She's not dead yet. But like, so I'm just, like, you're saying something that's not actually true? I mean, it is, but right now... People, kids don't die if they're vegan. There's plenty of vegan kids. I know people who've been vegan their entire life. Well, yeah, right now... Every single essential nutrient that you can think of come from plants. If this is, like, you know, harming the fishes and you're talking about harming the fish, what about the plants? What about them? Aren't you technically harming them by cutting them off? So isn't that also going against, like, harming? Do you think you can be cruel to a plant? Yeah, you can, because it's a living thing. Yeah, plants are living, but do they feel pain? No, it's pain. Do they have a brain? No. Sorry? No, they don't. They don't have a brain, do they? So how are they supposed to perceive pain if they don't have a brain? I don't know. How are they supposed to experience anything if they don't have a brain? So why would you think I could be cruel to a carrot? Because you're planting it, it's taking it out of the ground, where it's actually supposed to be. I don't care about a carrot. They don't perceive pain. They don't suffer. They don't have a consciousness. That's all right. They don't have a brain. All right. They don't have a nerve system or pain receptors, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But a fish, like, a fish does, obviously. Like, this octopus has been grilled alive. Do you think that's cruel? Well, yeah, I would say grilled alive. But, you know, if you immediately kill the fish and straight after you get it, I wouldn't actually say that's cruel. If you stab it, like, right where it has to be stabbed, with, like, crabs, you have to... If someone stabbed me right where it needed to be stabbed, do you think it would be cruel to take my life from me right now? If it's going to a good cause. It's okay to murder me if it's going to a good cause. Well, it depends on what that cause is. Well, what about because you want a fish and chip sandwich? Well... But a joey and chip. My name's Joey. So you want joey and chips? But you could eat something else, right? You could eat, like, a... You could eat a vegan burger. You could get a vegan... I've got a Lord of the Fries there. They've got vegan fish burgers, right? You could get that. But instead, someone killed me really quickly. So you could have me fried up with some chips. Needless. You just want a taste. You like the taste of me or whatever. Would you... Do you think that's justified? Yeah. I think that's justified. Yeah. No, no, let me talk to these kids. Just wait. I've been vegan for 26 years. Have you, brother? Yes. Good to hear, mate. What's your name? My name's Joey. Let me talk to these kids, man, and we'll talk a little bit. Bless you, my friend. Thank you. Thank you for that, mate. 26 years vegan. He should be dead by now, eh? Yeah. Ah, but, like... We do, brother. We do. Yeah. They will, brother. You're really big on YouTube, aren't you? How do you know? I've seen you before. My mum showed me videos. Really? Is your mum a vegan? Ah, she's vegetarian. Vegetarian? Yeah. So basically, you think it's fine to murder me for Joey, fish and chips? Yeah. You know, I don't think you believe that, brother, eh? Well, I wouldn't say... No, no, you'd be honest with me, man, because I'd be straight out with you, eh? Like, I don't lie. I'd be straight out with you. If someone tried to kill you so they could eat you, I would bash them so they were incapacitated. I would make sure they couldn't hurt you, man. Yeah. Well, the difference is, you know, fish and human. There's quite a difference there. I never said that we were the same, but the things that matter are what I'm concerned about. Yeah. The things that I've explained to you, like a fish, experience their reality. Yeah. Yeah, they feel pain. They don't want to die. They avoid pain and suffering if you give them the chance. And for these reasons, I think we shouldn't be exploiting and killing them if we have plant-based alternatives, which we do. Let me get his answer, and then I'll speak to you. What was the question again? I forgot, sorry. Ah, I said, the things that we have in common are what matter. Yeah, we're different. Yeah, and you might not empathize with a fish. They look completely different. They're alien to you. Aren't they? They're alien to you, so you don't understand them. Yeah. But when you cut them in half, they're still squirming and he's felt that, yeah? Yeah. They don't want to die. And I'm saying for these reasons, we should respect them. Leave them alone. Yeah. And if we have an alternative, which is like, you can get a vegan burger, you can find vegan food pretty easy. You look pretty privileged here. Yeah. You're not starving and having to hunt or anything like that. Yeah. So you can make that choice, but when you don't make that choice, you're choosing to abuse animals. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. You can say that, yeah? Yeah, well, I was four years, man. I just come to that realization. I was like, I don't want to be an animal abuser. I don't want to abuse the fish, even though I don't understand them. Yeah. I don't want them to suffer on my behalf. Yeah. Well, you know, you've done it before. You've probably been fewer in my case. You know, I haven't grown up all, so I don't know what's the harm in it. Yeah. So, you know. I ate meat for longer than you've been alive. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was also doing bad shit. I was in drugs. I was into violence towards people and that. You know? But I realized you're only 15. I sort of doubt, man. Like, you know, some 15-year-olds are vegan, right? But they just haven't come across this information yet. They haven't thought about this. They just go through life, mindlessly consuming, like I was, without thinking of the animals on the other end. Yeah. I still haven't got my mind really through this, but yeah. Yeah. Well, if you think of the victims, right? Yeah. Being vegan is easier, right? Being vegan, you might think, oh, it's a weird word. It just means you're against animal abuse in your actions. Yeah. It's a philosophy against the abuse of animals, basically. Yeah. That's all a vegan is. So if everyone on the planet, right, went vegan, wouldn't all the animals, like, overpopulate? So then... So what animals? Which animals? Like a horse or a cow or something. Wouldn't they, like, overpopulate? Well, what would a horse overpopulate if we went vegan? Are you talking about domesticated cows that we breed? Yeah. Okay. Well, we, you know, they're mass bred for... They're forcibly bred. No, but I mean, like, fishes. The fish, would they overpopulate? No. Well, they could. Yeah. Well, they... An ecosystem will only take as many animals as it can handle, so no more animals would breed if there's not enough food for them to survive. So an ecosystem will only take as many animals as it sort of can handle. You don't have to worry about overpopulation. What's happening now with cows and pigs and chickens is we're forcibly breeding billions of them. And we're feeding all the plant food to them and all the water to them so we can have a small bit of steak. So we've got 74 billion land animals being killed every year, only 7 to 8 billion humans. And the land animals that we eat outnumber us 10 times and we're feeding them all of our resources so you can have a bit of steak. And we're also abusing and murdering them. That's true. Yeah. But let me... This here... Look, there's a bit of fish facts for you. Watch Sea Spiracy. This here is how to... If you need help being a vegan, right? We made this and if you can go, where do I eat? This app here helps you find restaurants. What can I swap my stuff out with? What are some good movies that... Like if you want to know about what happens in farms... Dominion. You did? Yeah. What do you think? If you can sit through Dominion, like activists left cameras in farms and abattoirs, like at slaughterhouses. Like you've been in slaughterhouses. I've been in slaughterhouses before, yeah. I have. But these investigations were done by undercover people. The industry hired it because they want you to buy their product and they want to tell you it's all humane in there. But, yeah. Anyway, this is that. The word humane means to show compassion, kindness, benevolence. I don't think it's humane to take someone's life from them if they don't want to die. Like if someone come up and killed you with a bolt gun really quickly and you didn't feel it, I'd call that murder and I'd say it's an injustice. That's why we have murder laws. Vegan. Veganism. So you know how your cow's fish and stuff. Yeah. Like the most humane out of all of them is that they're killed. Like every other... Like I said, the fact that they're being exploited in the field means that it's murder, it's not humane. That word doesn't fit any of those. The best thing you can do to lessen your impact on animals is be vegan. I wouldn't advocate for anything less. Like if it was you on the other end of the bolt gun, I wouldn't be saying, oh, get him. He's been tortured less. Kill him. You know, obviously, if you had two choices to make, one, an animal was tortured like to death. The other, the animal lived a happy life and was killed. Obviously, you'd want the animal with the less suffering. But you've always got another choice, and that's leave them alone. Don't torture them. Don't kill them. Just be vegan. All right, brother. Good chat to you. Take care. Hey, bro, how many bowls do you have? 100,000. Take care, man. Hope you can go vegan, mate. Dairy and egg industries are disgusting, brutal industries. I mean, I don't believe in the caged eggs. That's the thing that I don't believe in. Well, if you don't believe in caged eggs, that means you believe animals matter morally. So they shouldn't be treated cruelly. So if you believe that, then you should also believe they shouldn't be murdered for you. I feel like it's how your pants raise. If you care about how they're treated, you should care that they get murdered, no matter how they do it. My mom's still a vegetarian since she was mine. She was a documentary. When she was nine, she saw how the sheep dies. That's what she just told me. Live export of sheep or something like that? Or wool industry or something like that? Yeah, man. This one was very against the live export. You should look into it, man, and make your own decision. You've got two eyes, brain, heart, compassion. Make your own choices, man. Peace out, brother. Take care. No worries, guys. Let's just say we could sustain torturing and killing animals en masse. Would that make it morally justifiable? I'd say we could eat fish. So there's nothing wrong with eating fish. No, God did not say anything like that.