 So, good evening. My name is Albertina Alvars-Lorens. I am the Deputy Chair of the Law Faculty and the Chair of the Advisory Board for Cambridge Women in Law. I am delighted to welcome all of you to today's event whose theme is a discussion about the work of women in publicly funded law. This is the first event organized jointly by Cambridge Women in Law and the Cambridge University Graduate Law Society. One of the objectives of Cambridge Women in Law is to promote the crucial role that Cambridge Law alumni play in inspiring and supporting younger generations of women lawyers and also to provide a strong platform for interaction between them. We are therefore thrilled that this event represents just that. We have this evening an impressive array of panelists who have very kindly agreed to take a number of questions. With us today, we have Allison Monroe, a barrister at Garden Court Chambers specializing in family and public law. This is Zola Johnson, a specialist prosecutor in the specialist crime and counterterrorism division at the Crown Prosecution Service. Kaelin Gallagher, a barrister at Daughty Street Chambers specializing in human rights and Olivia McGannis, a barrister at one Garden Court Chambers family law and an expert in the application of human rights law in cases involving children. The panel will be chaired by Professor Nikki Patfield, Professor of Criminal and Penal Justice here at the University of Cambridge and the Director of the Cambridge Center for Criminal Justice. Before I hand over to Professor Patfield for the discussion, I would like to thank her and the panelists very much in advance for joining us today. I would also like to thank Julia Freitek, the president of the Graduate Law Society, Claire Gordon, our wonderful development associate and Dan Bates on the technical side for all their help and their work organizing this exciting event. So without any further delay, I leave the floor to Professor Patfield. Thank you very much. Thanks very much, Albertina. And now we'll dump this Professor Patfield stuff and we'll become much more informal, I hope. We're all absolutely exhausted, I think by zoom and we're longing to meet and hug and talk about life in real ways. And I hope that in this session we can be as informal as possible. Now being informal is really difficult on these events, and how are we going to do the discussion. I'm not going to talk for very long. I'm going through the floor open to the panelists. The panelists have seen a list of seven questions that they've been forearmed with, and I'll leave it to them largely to fight it out between them. And I have no doubt that we're going to have a very lively debate and that the time will flow very fast and at 730 will all be sad that it's over. We haven't really choreographed it in any sense because it seems to me it's not such fun to do it that way. I'm grateful to have been invited to chair it. I'm going to talk about Albertina representing the Cambridge women in law. Thank you very much Julia, the Cambridge University Graduate Law Society. What are my credentials to chair this well I'm a failed barrister. I hope that you're all going to be the people in the audience are all going to be convinced that they really want to go into public law, because we need you we sure do need you out there and I hope the message this evening isn't too negative. I did my pupil each in 1979 and left the bar in London to go and practice in the Gambia and never went back to practice and it is one of my regrets in life it would be something that I haven't done I've sat as a part time judge a recorder, but I haven't done what these wonderful women have done. And so I really look forward to this evening to hearing from them about life in public funded law now everybody's going to say. There's not enough money it's chaotic the pandemics made it worse, but hey, these four wonderful women are doing it and they're not doing it because they don't like doing it. So can I start off by asking each of you just to introduce yourselves, say something jolly just for a couple of minutes. If you want to choose one of those questions to hit straight in on your very welcome, but I'm not asking at this moment I think for a 10 minute speech from each of you. If we could just have a two minute two minute introduction from each of you, and then we'll go from there. So I'll follow the same order which I don't quite know what the order is but it's the order that I have and it's the order that Albertina had said Alison would you like to introduce yourself to the crowd, the invisible crowd. If you want to ask specific questions, please ask them in the Q&A, and I'm going to keep an eye on that Q&A all the time, and allow your questions in a sense to interrupt we're not going to leave questions to the end. When you have a burning question, ask it in the quick Q&A, and I'll sadly be the translator I don't think we've set it up have we done for the people in the audience to ask the questions themselves. And I'll do the translating of your questions, but please do ask questions further Q&A chat further chat if you want to, and we'll go from there. So Alison, sorry, I interrupted you already. Nostal, thank you very much Nikki and thank you everyone for inviting me to be on the panel this evening with such wonderful speakers. I'm very grateful. I'm sure it will be an interesting and thought provoking session. A little bit about myself, my name is Alison Monroe. I practice at Garden Court chambers. I have a mixed practice which is perhaps slightly unusual in as much as I have been practicing since 1992. I used to primarily be a criminal defense barrister, but I've always done family public law and inquests and inquiries and live changes over the years and my practice has changed over the years and I'm now arrived, you know, 27, 28 years later and I'm primarily a family practitioner who does a lot of inquests, public inquiries and hardly any crime at all. It's strange for me that, you know, this has been my career because I started back in 1985 at Noonam. I did history, had no intention of doing law whatsoever, saw myself as being a historian really and being an academic. And I sort of came into law through politics and through campaigning work that I was doing and did the law conversion course and ended up as a barrister and very fortunately for me, I have all my professional life only been at two chambers. I started as a pupil at Garden Court. I went then to Tuck's chambers. When Tuck's spent 25 years there, when Tuck's ended, I came back to Garden Court. Both Garden Court and Tuck's and perhaps with a few others such as Doughty Street where Keelan's at are regarded for the sake of a better word as radical sets, human rights, sets that are political, that do certain types of work and have a certain ethos. So I think perhaps I've been somewhat insulated at the bar and as much as my experience of colleagues has been probably very different to many people at the bar. And I say that in terms of diversity, which is obviously buzzword now, but 25 years ago I was in a diverse set of chambers in terms of its mix and gender and people of color and people's sexuality, people were open about that because of the nature and the community that we were in as the chamber. So I've had a very different experience perhaps, but that's informed me and my politics is important, the kind of work I do. At the moment I'm representing a number of the families on the Grenfell inquiry. And that to me is again very much part parcel of bringing together campaigning, community based work and legal work. Keelan and I know each other well. We were Hillsborough together up in the Northwest for a number of years. And again, that's that was another experience that you were representing people and you felt that you were actually making a difference to their lives. So that's a little bit about me where I come from what what I want to do what I'm doing at the moment. And I hopefully will answer some more questions as the evenings go on. Thank you. I'm sure you will. I'm already full of questions for you, but we're going to go on to the solar. You're muted. I had a meeting this afternoon and every other minute there was you're on mute. And I think in 50 years time we'll tell our nieces and nephews and children about this bizarre time when all we said was you're on mute and they just won't know what we mean. I'm really thrilled and really honored to be here tonight. I studied law at Lucy Cavendish and I already had a degree in philosophy from UCL and that's when I met the amazing. They keep outfield and she was my favorite tutor and really gave me an amazing love for constitutional law. And so I was so thrilled, I think a year or two ago when we reconnected. So I'm really delighted to be here. I am 50 in two weeks time. I was called to the bar in 1998. And last year was the first time I really calculated how many years ago I was called and I was astonished to find that it was over 20 years ago, because in many ways I feel as if I know as little now as I did then. Or maybe I just know how much I don't know. And at that time I thought I knew everything, but so initially I was in chambers. I was nine golf square chambers, which is a general common law set, and it did very kind of good quality crime. And I decided to leave because I just felt that I was a bit different and difference wasn't really celebrated in that set. They're very nice people, you know, I've got nothing bad to say about them really but it just felt that I wasn't. I didn't kind of belong there in any meaningful way so I joined the CPS. I was first a crown advocate and then I managed a team of crown advocates at Snerswick Crown Court. And one of the amazing things that I discovered about working in the civil service is that there are huge numbers of opportunities for lawyers in the in the civil service. So from, from the CPS I then went to the Home Office and worked at the UK Central Authority, which helps the UK and foreign countries to get evidence and people in and out so we do mutual legal assistance, they did mutual legal assistance and extradition. And from there I got a job at the European Commission, so I worked in Brussels for a year, drafting mutual legal recognition instruments. And that's all ancient history for us now because we're out of the EU, but it was really interesting and I moved my husband and my dog and we went to Brussels for a year is really fascinating. When I came back, I applied and got applied for and got my current job, which I have to tell you is my favorite job, since I qualified, and I really love it. And my current job is prosecuting mostly corporate manslaughter and gross negligence manslaughter, as well as misconduct in public office and election offenses so it's a really specialized area of law is incredibly interesting. I like Alison I'm, I'm doing the right thing in every case because unlike most homicide cases, the suspects in our cases are usually people like me and you who are at work, and something terrible happens and they kill someone. And I'm really aware all the time about the fact that the investigation is hanging over their heads. Often for years at a time and I want to do the right thing and only charge them if there's enough evidence we've got bereaved families on the other hand, who have lost somebody that they love so it feels like important work. So the question I won't answer it now but I just want to bag see it in advance. The question that I really find interesting is, do clients teach you with respect, and have you experienced racism or sexism at work. And so may I please ask Nicky to ask me about that question in due course. And when I forget you will doubtless remind me. Thank you very much. Thanks very much, Nicky. And what a pleasure to be here at sharing a virtual room with you all, and to follow Alison and basola who I really admire greatly in many ways. So, my name is Keelan Gallagher QC. The spelling is just there to fool you. It's one of those classic Irish names with lots of spare letters. And I've got to say, when I was appointed a silk, a number of years ago, a number of my colleagues said, you're the last person who needs some extra consonants in your name do you really need a QC edit but there we are. So it's just Keelan. And I think some of you may know that I was referred to Alice and I'm sure you know this. I was doing a case the number of years ago the 77 London bombings case acting for a number of briefed families and a rather enthusiastic spell check by a journalist reported that barrister Collie flower Gallagher had made a particular argument in court. So it is Keelan and thank you for planting it properly everyone. So I do look very committed to the brand this evening with the Doughty Street backdrop. It's not because I'm particularly corporate and committed to the brand it's in reality because I'm in chambers having just done a hearing. And my bookshelves are a on tidy and be have confidential client information. That's why I've used it. I'm conscious in this age of zoom that there is a new concept of bookcase credibility which I see Nikki and Albertina are doing very well on. But I would not be doing well if you could see at my backdrop, there's even now a service in curating your bookshelves on zoom, where someone will arrange your bookshelves so that you hit particular notes, which is like an Irish author referred many centuries ago to a service of someone coming in and reading your books and dog hearing them and putting sensible margin alien to make you look well read. So there's a zoom equivalent. So, one of the reasons I'm really delighted to be here today is because I went to Cambridge as a graduate so I'm a little different to some others on the panel. And it was a lifetime and life changing experience for me when I went to Cambridge. So I came to Cambridge as a graduate student having done my undergraduate degree in Dublin, and having done my barrister training in Dublin and having done a masters in Dublin and fully intending that I was going to return to practice at the bar there. But I spent a year doing the LLM in Cambridge. I met my husband there doing a PhD, and I've stayed ever since. And it really was because of the teaching that I had at Cambridge and particular guidance from Pip Rogers and many of you will know at keys that I changed course really. So I had a very clear plan and suddenly in my mid 20s changed my mind. And it was because of the time I had a Cambridge so I'm really pleased to be here. And I think it's useful to hear from someone who was also a Cambridge as a graduate but not as an undergraduate. And at the time when I was there certainly the graduate population was in some ways more diverse than the undergraduate population so I'm a state school pupil. And, you know, I'm not from a background of privilege at all. And there was certainly at the time when I was there quite a distinction between the graduate and undergraduate population in some ways. But my time was wonderful there. And after I was there, I was completely certain that I wanted to practice as a specialist in human rights and civil liberties law. Before that I'd intended, as you have to, at the Irish bar, I'd intended to be doing as much human rights law as I could, but necessarily you have to be a generalist at the Irish bar so it would have also involved doing landlord and tenant work and a whole range of other civil pieces of work with human rights probably making up about 15% or 20% of your practice if you're lucky. But I was sure that I wanted to specialize in it after my time in Cambridge. So I spent a number of years at Liberty, the NGO, and then I transferred to the bar of England and Wales in 2005, and just a few weeks actually after the London bombings and the decision about the Olympics. And actually that was a time when many people will be familiar with this as immigrants who live in the UK. It's the first time when I really felt like a Londoner. I didn't feel British, but I felt like a Londoner over that summer. And then I started at the bar. And so I've been at the bar for 15 years and specializing in human rights, as Alison says, our paths have crossed in many ways, particularly on Hillsborough, but also I've had the same experience as Alison in that you start at the bar knowing you want to do human rights work but actually the precise shape that that takes and you change your view as time goes on and you discover areas that you knew nothing about. So I was very firm when I started about international human rights law the right to protest freedom of expression which are all things that I do in my practice but I knew very little about some very practical areas of work which I now love and see is hugely important. Things like community care. So making late night applications for homeless children to secure a roof over their head for example really fundamental bread and butter human rights work, which I just didn't know about particularly before I came to the bar. So your practice does change I think as you come in. And the one thing I wanted to say at the start really is, there is a quote, let me see if I can find it because I may miss remember it. There is a quote from roll down, and which I wanted to just give to you. And, and it is from. Yes, from my uncle Oswald, and it is, I began to realize how important it was to be an enthusiast in life. He taught me that if you're interested in something, no matter what it is, go out at full speed ahead and brace it with both arms, hug it, love it and above all become passionate about it. Luke warm is no good. Hot is no good either. White hot and passionate is the only thing to be at the single thing I would say right at the outset is what you need to do your working life is long. You need to have something that you're quite hot and passionate about and that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning. I got out of bed in the morning. This morning at 5am to a message from my client Maria Ressa in the Philippines is in dire circumstances, and I am happy to get up at 5am to speak to Maria Ressa. I am confident that I would not be happy to get up at 5am to deal with some aspects of corporate finance, for example. So as well as doing something that's worthwhile. It's something that actually gives you the drive to get up and go. And it's also something thinking of Hillsborough, which makes up for the difficult times. I'm the mother of three young children. This is the last thing I'll say in opening. I'm the mother of three young children and many of the cases that I do take me away from my family for a number of days at a time or sometimes for extended periods. And when you are finding that very difficult as a working parent with young children, the one thing that keeps me going is when you are acting for clients who have lost a loved one. The fact that you are missing your family really pales into insignificance. So with Hillsborough, as Alison knows, we traveled up on a regular basis. We were in Warrington for months on end and weeks on end and only coming back at weekends. And every time I found that difficult and found that tough. I just used it as more of a driver to try to work for my clients who lost their children, whose children went to a football match and never came home. And I think when you're doing a job that you are passionate about, you can into motivators to do your job better. It was rather a long start. White, hot and passionate. That's great. Olivia, how are you going to introduce yourself, please? Well, I am also delighted to be here and thank you very much for having me. I am a Christ's graduate. I did my undergrad there from 2000 to 2003 and was taught by both Nicky and Albertina. So it's extremely nice to be back in a virtual room with them. I did study law as an undergrad, mainly because I had read and watched Rumpole and felt that that was really the life for me. It helped that I thought I might be doing something quite important, but I wanted a job that I enjoy. That was really the key for me. So that was undergraduate law. And then I joined a common law set as a pupil in 2004. Can I interrupt you, Olivia? Do you know why we're not seeing your face move? Have you frozen your photograph? Because if it's an error, you could make us see you talking, but if it's just the system, I think none of us are actually seeing your face moving. We've got a very nice photo of you, but we haven't stopped you actually talking. It's definitely not deliberate. There we are. You're normal now. Right. I had just frozen, I'm sorry. My tech is very, very low down my list of skills, I'm afraid. So if something goes wrong, I can't fix it. Yeah, so I was at a common law set for pupillage and for the first 10 years of my practice, I started out doing pretty much exclusively criminal defense and slowly developed a bit of an interest in particularly child abuse, children proceedings, family proceedings. And so I had a mixed practice for a while until I joined my current set in 2016, having been an exclusively family practitioner for some time by then. I present predominantly parents in proceedings where the state has intervened if there are allegations of abuse, sexual or physical and radicalization or neglect. That's really where my publicly funded practice is. I couldn't agree more with what the panellists have said so far and in particular Keelan, white, hot and passionate feels like really the only way to endure the bad times in this job because there are some and they are intense. But it is a wonderful, wonderful thing to be doing with my time. It's much easier to get out of bed in the morning to do something that you care about and something that feels important in some way, even if, as certainly I often am, you're on the wrong side of it really. So far as being a woman at the bar is concerned, I'll just tell you some tiny personal details so that you know I have a three year old son and I'm about six weeks away from maternity leave with baby number two, all being well. And so far as something fun and light hearted my dog had his first haircut today and I thought you might all like to know that he's seven months old and he's great. Thank you very much indeed. Wonderful. So now you're all here. And rather than going to the questions. I straight away like the Q&A questions have you all worked out how to look at the Q&A. The participants can't see them so I will read out this question from anonymous attendee it sounds very uncame bridge to be anonymous, but you're allowed to be anonymous. My question for Alison, I'm wondering when you say that your politics and values brought you to the bar. Why it was you felt that being a barrister was a good career for that purpose. I'm drawn to the bar for the same reason but find it hard to explain why, when people ask, wouldn't it be better to be an activist, staff and NGO, be a politician. And I think that's a great question. And it's for you Alison. Yeah, it's a great question. I, as I said, when I was studying history, I saw my career path as being an academic, but at the same time I was always heavily involved in politics. And as an undergraduate, I was very much involved with the lab students and in my third year was chair of the Labour Club and we had it in those days back in the mid 80s, we had what was called university left. So it would be an amalgamation of various groups of greens, the SDP remember them, the Liberal Party and the Labour Club and the communist students would all we would all be, you know, the student elections we'd have a joint platform it was about the rainbow coalition really back in the mid 1980s. And so I saw myself, perhaps being an academic but I was also drawn to politics or, you know, being involved in politics. And when I graduated I did, I went for an interview to be a researcher with my local Labour MP, possibly the worst body in the history of interviews it's ever had. I ended up having an argument with him, telling him why his politics were wrong, what he was doing wrong as a constituency MP. Surprisingly enough, he didn't give me the job. And it was at that point I thought, no politicians, no politics is not the way to go. You need to find something that engages the community that actually you're working face to face with people. And at the same time you're making an effective change. And it's sort of dawned on me that, you know, actually being a lawyer, could well be that answer, you know, that encompasses all those aspects of community work, campaigning work, but you're actually able to affect change, you know, in the law courts. And so I was fortunate enough to do a mini pupilage at Tuck's Chalmers, which is where I spent the majority of my professional career. It was run by Michael Mansfield, had amazing, we had an amazing set of embarrassers there. And, you know, after a week of the mini pupilage it cemented my view that yes there are people at the bar who are like me, because I too came from a state school background. And despite going to Cambridge, you know, I still very much felt like an outsider when I got to the bar. And it made me think there are people who are like me there are people who have those similar principles, there are people who, you know, are not motivated simply by career goals and wanting to make money but by actually wanting to achieve an effect change as best they can I'm not saying it's perfect in any shape or form. But that really cemented for me the notion that this was something you can do, rather than being a politician rather than working for an NGO or a group like that where you're actively obviously campaigning and working with people but being a barrister being a solicitor, you can be part of actually changing somebody's life, you know, what you do in be it representing somebody on a small case in the magistrates court or doing Grenfell or Hillsborough at the other extreme in terms of science and publicity and magnitude. You affect people's life and can affect people's life for the better and it's a really immediate sense of effecting change. So I think that for me was the motivating factor and I have to say over the years, I do think there've been times where I've been incredibly frustrated. I still, even now after all those years and I was called in 1992, still feel that it's an area of work that I can do and I can actually have a platform and as I've become more senior your platform grows. I was one of six, amazingly, six black women QCs who were appointed, you know, were rare as hen's teeth quite frankly, but for six of us in one go, that was something and it was really interesting because of course we then sort of like spent most of last year doing webinars because they were like, Oh, we need those six black women again, kept them on. But it was great because it gave us a platform to talk about our experiences as women as black women and getting past that breaking through that glass ceiling and achieving things that you can then, because representation matters, you then become somebody that other young black men and women are the working class for me working class people can look to and think, Well, if she can get there, I can get there. If she can do something that's making it a real difference, then I can do that's something that's making a real difference. So, so those are the reasons and slightly rambling multifaceted reasons why I felt that the legal route was the best one, as opposed to going into politics. And I would interrupt and say that it's still not too late for your political career. There are many people who move on. Did any of the rest of you think about just like killing you. Yeah, I was just going to make that point Allison that it's not too late. My colleague is obviously Kirstarmer who is a very successful silk Allison, you may have heard of him. So you have another room. And but also for me I share Allison's view and I think the questions are really good one. For me it was social justice first and then law second. So I've always struggled from people. I taught for a while at the LSE and I had first year students. And when I asked them why have you become a lawyer, a lot of them would say, Well, medicine or law, or they would talk about wanting money. They would be connected to their academic results or finances. And I always find that very strange because for me it wasn't, I would not be a housing I would not be a landlord and tenant lawyer, and I would not be a financial services lawyer or commercial lawyer. So for me it was always a driver to want to do social justice and human rights work and law was a means to achieve that. That was a large part of the reason why I decided to stay and practice from London which gives you so many international issues in a way that you don't necessarily have in other jurisdictions. So I grappled with exactly the issue that the person asking the question has put just like Allison did, you know, thinking, Well, should I go down the NGO roof and of course I did in fact work for an NGO for a period of time after being at Cambridge. So for me, I've always seen the value of the law as an instrument of social change. And just to give you some really practical examples on that. And in international human rights, and being a lawyer allows you to do things which you could not do with other skills and just as an NGO working in an NGO without those skills. So for example, I've got the privilege of leading the international team for Daphne Karawana Galitia's family the Maltese journalist who was assassinated in 2017, and working with the family who are absolutely incredible and working with some very brilliant free speech organizations, like reporters without borders and really fantastic civil society activists in Malta. And we have managed to secure the first ever article to investigation in Malta into a debt. So they don't have an inquest system in the same way that we have here. They don't have a system where you explore whether a death was preventable and what lessons should be learned what the state complicity was that's all just done through the criminal justice system ordinarily. So we managed to achieve that and that is only something that we've managed to achieve through the use of law, we wouldn't have been able to do it just lobbying in another way. So I really would emphasize that if you are keen on the issue of social change and human rights rule of law in other fields. Thank you very much. I'm going to go on straight away I think to another question and Cynthia Fernandez question is, I think typical of many general questions which will come your way. Hello, I'm a final year undergraduate very interested in becoming a barrister specializing in public law and human rights. What can I expect. And what can I do now to get there. Now that seems to me a lovely question because it's very typical of a third year undergraduate either. Can you tell me whether I'm right, because I don't quite know what I'm expecting. And then this endless thing. What should I do to get it you know how do I build my CV in the right way. How would any of you like to answer Cynthia's question. I'll choose you. Fine. I'll probably defer the more the more kind of pure public law aspects to others on the panel who are definitely more knowledgeable in that respect but I certainly sit on our pupilage. I don't have a committee but I do do the marking. And I have done that in my previous chambers as well. And what you what you need to do from a chambers perspective is I suspect what you already know you need to do. Mooting is brilliant and any evidence that you can give in a pupilage application of arguing whether on paper or in a mooting competition that's really valuable and considered to be a very good indication, not only of your own ability and commitment to your skills but of course hopefully it's given you an idea of whether you actually like this or not, because particularly in the kinds of in the areas of law where in your second six you are up on your feet and arguing. Actually, it's good for you as well as for chambers to have a sense that that's something you're going to enjoy rather than find paralyzingly awful as a friend and ex colleague of mine did. So mooting is great. Many pupilages are of course what we are looking for and a number of those will be helpful, although you don't need to have a million of them under your belt. I think we appreciate and accept that there are financial constraints on the number of many pupilages a person can do over a summer, for example, if you don't live in a place where you're close to chambers, and you would have to be commuting in and out every day all of that is taken into account. So mooting is very important and of course your grades are very important. If you are taking a break following completion of your undergraduate degree from a chamber's application perspective, lots of extra curricular stuff is helpful, you know, the projects that you can do in the States and on death row or any of these activities that you can do that show again your commitment to what your career is going to be, and also your own development of your skill set before you get to us all of that is really important. But there is no hard and fast path and I think probably other panellists would agree the bar is I think quite unusual in that you often have people coming from another career, and that is completely standard people who have been in France, people who have been in journalism, people who have been in politics. My co people was an actor for 10 years before he applied to the bar. So, you know, whilst like I say that there are all these things that will help your application equally bear in mind that if you can justify what you have done and why you took route A rather than route B, that will be of lots of interest to the chambers you're applying to I'm sure. So, can you add to that useful answer. Yeah, Keelin. Yeah, that was a really helpful answer just a couple of very quick points. And the first thing is, and that I agree with the point Olivia has made about so many people coming from other careers. So, you know, we have had a range of pupils who've come from running a small NGO, for example, and having been a police officer having been a journalist. We've had people who are into their 40s or even their 50s. And, in fact, interestingly, we do a lot of self reflection on our recruitment processes, and we were concerned that we may have an age discrimination issue in the sense that it's difficult to see no matter how brilliant you are as a 23 year old how you get in in those circumstances so we've adjusted our processes to take account of that. And I think particularly in public law, especially in sets that do predominantly claimants public law, there is that kind of issue that a lot of people have come from being a solicitor or being in a firm for a long time or doing something else. So I think that I know we and a number of others are just examining whether we have set the bar in a way which makes it very difficult no matter how brilliant you are as a junior person. The other thing I would say is, just check what the yardstick is for the individual chambers and I realize that the process makes that quite difficult, but every single year when we do the pupillage shift we get over a thousand applications. And we get people who quite obviously have tried to do a one size fits all and you can tell they've applied for Doughty Street and for Garden Court but they've also applied for a specialist immigration set. And they've also applied for a set that does clinical negligence and they're trying to be all things to all men and women. And one of the best pieces of advice really is to think about where you're applying, tailor your application in that way, and make sure that you're meeting the yardstick because I'm afraid in a very competitive field when we get one of those catch all applications they just don't make it past the first round. Okay. I'm going to return to Boussola with her demand at the beginning that she wanted to be answered a specific question before I forget and get told off at the end. Boussola, answer your question. Thanks. Also, in the Q&A there was a question that I said that I would answer live. I don't know if you want me to do that at the same time. But that was the one I asked for and then you can decide if you want me to take a break. So the question was, do clients treat you with respect and do you get, you know, sexism and racism at work? When I first qualified, right, I had been to an all girls boarding school, and I had three years at UCL with boys, and I found that actually quite frightening, because I've got three sisters, and you know, and I haven't really lived with boys. My older brother, he was 18 when I was born, so he was at university when I was little, so basically I'd never lived with men except my father and he doesn't really qualify. And then I went to Lucy Cavendish, which is a lovely college then, with only women, now it's got men as well. And I didn't really know how to be assertive with men. And I think that I found it very difficult to deal with male professionals when I qualified as a barrister. So I found it hard to be with male pupil masters, I wasn't assertive enough, I was a bit scared about it all. And over a period of time, I've developed techniques that I use, such as, so a lot of my work now is done with police officers, and because the cases are big and serious, they tend to be quite experienced and senior police officers. And so I'm very conscious from the minute I meet them about how I present myself, and I present myself as a professional, I'm not trying to be anybody's mate. I'm very careful about where I sit on the table. And I think being a black woman is also, it's a kind of dual intersectionality, which can make people treat you in a certain way and treat you not as they're equal, but rather that they are your superior. So I take the seat, you know, I take the head of the table seat, and I'm very well prepared and I've got questions for everybody. Actually, if they step out of line, I just tell them, that's my job. Thank you. You know, I often have police officers trying to help me with the analysis of whether there's gross negligence or not. And I say to them, that's my role. Thank you. What I'd like you to do is to get ABC evidence. Thank you. And so, you know, I think it's really important that the way in which you comport yourself can affect how people treat you. In terms of racism, I didn't think any of this. I didn't think anything of it until Alexandra, I can't remember her surname, Wilson, was in the press last year about the fact that when she went to court, she was, people thought she was a defendant or something. That happened to me all the time. I would go with my standard issue, Samsung night suit case, which every barrister in the world has at court with my black suit, and a bag containing my wig and my gown. I'd go through security and they'd say, Miss, family go into the court that way, Miss. Are you here for your brother? Oh, the cells are down that way, Miss. Are you waiting for your solicitor? I mean, it just happened twice a month. And I didn't even think it was remarkable. So the fact that Alison, Alexandra was talking about it last year was saddening because it clearly still happens. She's rightly made a big fuss about it. But I think there's a lot of unconscious bias actually at work in the way that people approach you. So what can you do about it? In terms of clients and people you interact with, I think, as I said, I think it's worth doing a bit of prep about how you want them to see you. And the other thing is about being assertive and actually, you know, saying to that security guard who directs you to the public gallery because you're clearly the defendant's sister. Now, why do you think that is? And just, you know, let them come up with an answer. And so don't not being afraid about causing a bit of discomfort that challenges people and makes them think about their unconscious bias, conscious or unconscious bias. I'd like to come back to the imposter syndrome thing, but, you know, Nikki, I'll shut up for the moment. No, I think it follows on quite nicely and I will open it up to everyone else around the table. It's not first by the imposter syndrome. So I've had it a lot. And when I saw the question I just thought I haven't had it so often actually so often recently. I think what's happened is that firstly, I'm in an area of law that I really, really love. I feel very comfortable and I feel competent. So I'm generally feeling quite well prepared and, you know, competent. So what I have found very helpful is to have allies at work. So people to whom you can be completely honest and say, I'm feeling a bit scared about that conference because and let them reassure you and listen to the reassurance and also use them as sounding boards for your ideas. There are tricky, tricky matters that you think are going to come up in that conference run them past somebody who's whose legal judgment you trust and listen to their feedback about it and let let yourself be challenged so that when you are in that meeting, you are speaking from a position of strength. So I think it's really important you have allies who will tell you the truth, and who will support you and help you to build up your self esteem. And then also the other thing is to prepare really well so that so that if you are challenged during the meeting or you know the court hearing whatever it is, you've got a good foundation on from which you can push back and that's I think really done by being competent and preparing well so there's, there are two pieces of work to be done in terms of the imposter syndrome. The first is get external support, get allies and get their help and bounce ideas off people and the second is do your own prep so that you feel less insecure and you're better able to manage in the moment. I'll be quiet. Thank you very much so there's a lot there for the rest of you to come in on racism, gender is an imposter syndrome. You all have something to say on this one I think who would like to go next. I'd like to go next. I'm glad you said what you said about your reaction to Alexandra and saying that she was stopped because they thought she was a defendant's girlfriend and you know of course it was like human cry on the BBC news. And I thought, yeah, welcome to my world 25 years ago, you know, everybody of our generation and subsequent generations happen to happen to the only difference that I noticed over the years is I went from being the defendant's girlfriend to his mother, you know, that was the only, that was the only change. And I can recall the first time it happened, and I know that I was at Thames Magistrates Court. And in those days, you know, I'm a bit scruffier today but in those days, you know, as a new shiny barrister, I was really, really well dressed. And in those days we had our breeze still with pink ribbons around it. And I from Bethnal, I grew up in Bethnal Green and my accent has flattened out over the years. But back in the early 90s, and as clients used to remind me I'd go into court I start a quite posh, and I'd become more and more cock me as the hearing went on. And I was stopped by the security guard who asked me if I was a defendant's girlfriend. And I turned around to him and said, Listen, mate, what do you think I've got in my hand? It's got pink ribbon on it, isn't it? And he sort of looked at me and I said, I'm a barrister, I'm a barrister. Where'd I have to go? Because I was quite, I was so taken aback and so angry about it. And I thought, God, I've worked really hard to get to where I am. No disrespect to the defendant's girlfriend. But I'm here as a professional in my lovely shiny new suit with my pink ribbon and my brief. And this is how you treat me. And it sort of made me angry, but it also deflated me. And I just thought, is this what the bar is going to be like? And the thing that I've noticed about the bar, I've never encountered from clients overt racism, because that's not how it operates quite often in this country anyway. It's often a low key level of racism that you know it's there, but you can't always put your finger on it, but you know it's there. It's a reluctant handshake. It's the uncomfortable, them being uncomfortable in your presence, you know it's there. And sometimes I know it's been there with clients. But ultimately, what are they going to do? They've got nowhere else. And the case is being called only in five minutes. So they've got to just, you know, put up and shut up really. And I think that's that used to happen a fair amount of times in the early days. And so, you know, that that that sort of sense of being deflated was something that I really noticed at the bar, which brings me on to the question of imposter syndrome. Coming as a graduate from Cambridge. And can I just go back to our last question about, you know, what things that, you know, undergraduates should do at the end of the day. You know, you're all Cambridge graduates and regardless of whether you went to state school or public school, you come out with a Cambridge degree. It makes a difference. I applied as a pupil to all the lefty chambers, you know, Pleisters, Doughty Street, Garden Court, Toots. I also, as an experiment, applied to some really pucker sets that I had no interest in them. And I thought, I just see what will happen. They will see the name Alison Monroe, they will see a graduate at Cambridge and learn the whole, all of them gave me interviews. You can see their faces drop as I walked through the door because I wasn't what they were expecting. But, you know, we have to accept that, you know, as graduates from Cambridge, you are in at an advantage to many, many other young people who are who were coming out of universities and trying to get into the bar into the bar and a part of that cake. But going back to the imposter syndrome, I left Cambridge as a super confident 21 year old, you know, I felt I could take on the world. I was incredibly fearless. I looked back at the person that I was at 18, 19, 20, 21. And I think this was, you know, borderline insufferable, you know, that she was so enthusiastic about everything and was so go getting. The bar, not that confidence out of me, it chips away at you year after year after year. And despite the fact that I was in this lovely set of chambers, once I left chambers, and I was going to court and I was facing judges who would, you know, treat you in a different way and you could never quite put your finger on it, but sometimes you were treated differently. Your opponents would treat you differently. People sometimes would react with astonishment that you could, you know, string a sentence together and use words of more than three syllables. You know, so that just knocked your confidence year after year after year. And I, there was a time I thought, am I good enough for this? Should I be doing this? And even as late as 2019 when I was applying for SIL, I was sitting there with this form in front of me thinking, why are you doing this, Alison? You're not going to get this good enough with this. You know, and I had to have phoned up a friend who said, don't be so stupid, just put the application in. And that's what happens to a lot of women, to a lot of black people at the bar. You almost talk yourself out of doing the job, which is a terrible state of affairs. But as Bessola says, you know, you've got to earn your place at that table and, you know, we shouldn't feel that we have to do more and have to be twice as good as everybody else in order to level them. And that shouldn't be the situation. And if I can just end up with a quote, I've used this quote before, but I think it's quite apposite at the moment that we've got Kamala Harris as the vice president in the US. Shirley Chisholm was a black woman who's born in New York. She is Caribbean, Bayesian and Guyanese heritage, which is my family's heritage. And it goes to my heart as one of my heroines. But Shirley Chisholm, in 1968, she became the first black woman to be elected to the US Congress. She was a Democrat. And in 1972, she became the first woman of color to contest the Democratic presidential selection didn't succeed, obviously, but she was a pioneer. And Shirley Chisholm says this about, you know, fighting for your place at the table. She said this, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. And I think that's something that I really would live by and I tell people, you know, don't wait for them to give it to you, you know, you bring your folding chair and you put yourself on that table and you claim your place. Olivia and Keely, do you want to add anything on imposter syndrome or challenging prejudice? Unless Olivia wants to go first, I'll go ahead. And yeah, for me, I mean, obviously, it's nothing like what Allison and the solo have experienced with black women. And, you know, I hear from a lot of my colleagues about microaggressions and repeated incidents. So, you know, one of my colleagues who is Southeast Asian often gets mistaken for the interpreter. It's a particular thing that she has when she goes to court. The assumption is she's there as an interpreter. It's no slight on interpreters, but why do you have her in that particular camp? And many of my colleagues who are black women say it's just exhausting. So one of my colleagues who's been at the bar for about 30 years says every single time she goes to court in her suit with her wheelie bag. I mean, the most cliched picture of a barrister you can imagine, she braces herself for the security guard or the court clerk or the person who interacts with her in a way which belittles her. And that is just something which many of our colleagues, particularly the pale, stale male ones just don't have to deal with ever. And look, I have nothing like that. But as a woman, there are many experiences, despite privilege as being a white woman, there are many experiences which we have repeatedly, particularly at the bar. And I think it's particularly because it's a profession where you're self-employed and where you don't have a human resources department when things happen. So I'll just give you a couple of examples, because for me, I think many of us do experience imposter syndrome. And the reason for that is because the world often tells us that we don't belong or somehow that we're not good enough. So first example is, since taking silk, I cannot tell you how many times people see my unusual name and just assume I'm a man. And it absolutely happens to me more as a QC than it did as a junior council. Absolutely. So people assume they see my name, they see Keel and Gallagher QC, I get addressed as Mr. I turn up and they are visibly taken aback that a woman has turned up who's relatively young. I say in my mid 40s, I'll call myself relatively young and not just not what they pictured. And I have often been in this situation. And in fact, it happened to me very recently where I've attended a hearing or a meeting with someone very junior who's male. Most recently, as a female silk with a pupil who was a man, where the assumption was that the pupil who was the man was the QC. That's the assumption. So I mean, that just tells you and of course that's that's discombobulating and difficult. And then your interaction with people you're undermined right from the outset. That's quite important. And I think the point the solo made earlier about, you know, obviously being very brilliant at our job and people now recognizing that one of the difficulties of the bar which a lot of my female colleagues, particularly the junior female colleagues describe is that they every single time they meet a new client, they have the credibility gap that they've got to get over. So one of my colleagues who's in her 40s, and also Cambridge graduate was in a very senior role at the UN for a long time, looks very young. So, you know, if you were told she was 25, you'd believe it. She had any credibility gap in the UN, and that assumption that maybe she's too young for the job is overtaken by the fact that she's in the role for a long time and people know who she is. People recognize her expertise. That's quite different. If you then are a junior criminal barrister, for example, and every single time you turn up to a cell to meet a client for the first time, or every single time you turn up in court, people are thinking, who's she? She looks very young. Surely she's too young to be the barrister. She doesn't make jokes about barristers getting younger all the time. And that's how her interactions tend to start simply because she has the advantage of looking rather younger than she is. So I think that's a key issue. And the other example I wanted to give is, and it really is, there's a phrase which was used by the founder of the Irish Country Woman's Association, Donald, a number of years ago, where she said, I didn't start out as a feminist. It was life that made a feminist out of me. And I always think, think of that when I remember something that happened to me. My eldest child is now 12. So about 13 years ago, when I was pregnant with my eldest child, I was very positive. I told people relatively early on about being pregnant was quite had quite clear plan about how I was going to manage my practice and manage my maternity leave had spoken to a lot of people. And the experience I had of soft sexism, if I can put it that way, you know, came like a thump in the stomach. And it was that having told one of my colleagues, an ally, you would think about the pregnancy. I then later in the day, I got told by him, white man, much older, he said, Oh, a solicitor mentioned to me he wanted to instruct you on a case and I said, you're pregnant and you're very tired. And you just think what do you do with that as a self employed person. Do you ring the solicitor about the non existent brief which has gone elsewhere. Where do you go with behavior like that which is well meaning but misplaced. And there's a particular problem with being self employed with behavior like that and people sometimes meaning well for doing things which are really quite offensive. So that backdrop, I just wanted to tell you, when an Allison you've obviously taken silk in recent years to and you'll have the same thing as me, the wonderful letter that we got from the absolutely wonderful letter and I see some of you nodding from Eleanor Plath QC at one garden court who took silk in 1982. Exactly. I see you waving, and it started dear female QC I knew nothing about this until I had it. So when I got when I took silk in 2017. In my chambers pigeonhole I got a letter from Eleanor Plath QC saying dear female QC I attached to this email as well as a letter of congratulation a list now quite long of all female silks ever. And it made for very sobering reading so reading it in 2017. It commenced with a list of women who died. So Helena Normanton Rose Heilbronn, the first women silks in 1949. And Helena Kennedy QC one of my colleagues and a very close friend, silk in 1991, shockingly was only number 44 ever mean you think about what was happening in the early 90s. She was only silk 44 ever alive or dead. The numbers don't even hit 200 until 2008. And they're climbing, but I was only number 397 ever. So at the time when I was made a silk in 2017 fewer than 400 women silks ever alive or dead. And at that time, I looked up when I got that letter, the number of male silks in practice at the time, and the answer was 1574 male silks. So there I was below number 400. And of course what Alison says about female silks of color that the stats are even worse. So there is a huge, huge way to go and that's why we have imposter syndrome because of numbers like that and attitudes like that. Thank you. I think we should push on. So with some of the other questions. Let's combine two of them. We've got in the audience and non law PhD student who works on social justice issues. Do you think it's too late to make the shift to legal practice. And also as someone currently on a PhD stipend and not from a wealthy background, what sort of financial support is available money was certainly going to raise its head in this discussion. So then, I think we can connect it to a Holly sergeant's question, who Holly has escaped corporate law to come to Cambridge as a graduate student. So on the topic of it on on the topic of exploring our passions, what level of autonomy. Do you have as a junior barrister to pursue pieces of work that you're passionate about that quite different but I think you can combine. Where do you get money, and how do you keep your passion going. I'll start because I didn't let you speak on the last round. That's fine, although I fear because I live with imposter system syndrome permanently. I fear that these are not my questions really, but so far as autonomy money you can certainly advise where you find these mythical pots of money. Yeah, that's not that's not straightforward. And there are, as I know, you know, but there are loans available for the BTPC. And there are scholarships available from the ends. And if you manage to get pupillage sufficiently far in advance with a chambers which pays a sufficient sum of money. Some of those chambers permit or allow a drawdown of some of your chambers award during your bar school year. So there are some options, but I have to say as far as I know they really are very limited. And you are talking about, of course, a significant debt for bar school in particular, at least once you get pupillage you're getting paid something. But bar school is a very tricky year financially. And as I say, most people finance it, I think with loans. And then I certainly work throughout my bar school year. In fact, from a really practical perspective, if I had my time again, I would probably have split it over two years. I would have done more legal stuff to boost my CV and would have worked a bit more to earn some more cash as well. As I say, I worked in a pub three or four nights a week, and was also trying to CV build because I didn't have pupillage when I started at bar school. The timing was all slightly different then. And so I was desperately trying to make sure my CV was in the right place, but also that I could afford to pay for everything I needed to pay for living in London as a student at 22. So the financial sources I think are quite limited and I'm happy for anyone else to jump in if they have more knowledge of that than I do. There's a related question which is, are you rich enough, people want to know, people have coded words that they ask, have you found the work financially sustainable? It all depends what your aspirations are, I guess. I'll just jump in there quickly. I think Keelan said it earlier. It may have been someone else I was listening to the legal aid panel yesterday, but no one comes to the publicly funded bar for the money. I think you have to be realistic about that before you start. You're never going to be driving a Porsche or flying first class at the publicly funded bar. And if those are your aspirations financially, then rethink now. There are ways to make it work, although I have to say one of the reasons I abandoned crime in the end completely was because it was not for me financially sustainable. And as a Cambridge graduate, you see your friends starting, you know, you all start learning absolutely nothing anyway or pretty much at the same time when you're 22, 23. But very quickly, your friends start being able to go out for dinner and maybe even buy a flat and not worry about paying train tickets. And after five years of nothing but criminal defence and the problems with the legal aid agency that I think everyone knows that one has, I took the view that I just didn't. I never came to this job to be rich, but I also assumed I would be able to pay my bills every month and that was not actually as straightforward as you think. So that was a factor in the move over to family, which I have to say is better paid, still not gold plated, but significantly better paid than crime. So sorry, I'll let other people speak now. Thank you, Nikki. In terms of how do you pay for the training. I joined in a temple because I heard I don't know if it's true actually that it had the most amount of funds and the fewest number of members and so the chances of getting a scholarship was slightly higher. And I got a decent scholarship which paid for my basketball fees. I also took a bank loan which although it seemed enormous at the time I did actually pay off after a number of years, you know, on target. So it's doable, but you're not rich. And I also worked during my basketball year. I think all people now have to be paid. And I know about the CPS I looked up before we started the meeting today that they pay their pupils, it nationally outside London between 23 and a half to 26 and a half thousand a year. And then you're pretty much guaranteed a job on what's the word, you know, on acceptable completion of your satisfactory completion of your pupil age and then you get taken on as a Crown prosecutor and then after that as a senior Crown prosecutor. The advantage of being employed as opposed to self employed of course is that you get start to contribute to a pension, and the civil service pension is excellent. You get a holiday pay you get sickness pay. So if you're if you're ill you can actually take a day off unlike when you're in chambers where you drag yourself in unless you've got, you know, your legs are being smashed smashed under a bus, you know, and then you physically can't drag yourself in. So it's, I find it a really good way to balance my personal life and work. Now, I agree with Olivia, you're never going to be rich. But if you're not greedy, it is possible to live a decent life as I mean I work as a criminal barrister in in the CPS. I think I'm very well paid. I'm not, I'm not going to be rich but I'm very well paid, and I can live comfortably. I'm able to buy a house. I've got a good pension, which I will eventually get if I'm ever able to retire and good benefits. We're all working from home now but generally speaking I can work from home when I choose even outside of the pandemic times. And I think the CPS has become a very progressive employer it's incredibly sympathetic to working parents. It's very encouraging of its staff to bring their whole lives, their whole persons to work. So, you know, I don't feel embarrassed or I don't find it problematical to talk about my African descent or, you know, if I've got friends who are openly get work and that's completely fine. So I think it depends on what you're after. What I was after really was finding an area of the law where my values were in alignment with the work that I was doing. My main motivation was wanting to work in an area where where I was contributing to the survival of the rule of law. So for Alison and for Keelan it was about social justice. For me, it's not mutually exclusive it's slightly different but it was about working to ensure that the rule of law was working well and that nobody was above the law. I get that completely every single day of my life. I'm able to make a contribution which I feel is valuable. I mean just very briefly, this is a slightly different tangent from the straight question I was thinking about, you know, why I love this work so much, and why is it that it satisfies my love of rule of law. And I was just thinking about some cases that my team has dealt with recently so I've prosecuted some police officers a few years ago who had been corrupt and who had been chucking cases they didn't want to do basically. A colleague of mine in my team prosecuted Charlie Elfik who was the MP who was convicted of sexually abusing his employees and also former nanny. I prosecute people for election offences. It's really important to me that nobody is above the law and that people who are accused of have a good chance to defend themselves but then if they can't, if the if the state can prove the case against them that they be convicted and it's really important to me that you know I'm part of a system where that's possible. And for that I don't need to be able to drive a Porsche. It's enough for me just to be able to live comfortably and with dignity and I get that in the area of work that I do. I can see the clock marching on and I want to bring in Erica sans question because well done Erica for not being anonymous attendee. And this is a question for Alison. What you said about the bar knocking the confidence out of you resonates with me quite a bit regarding my experience at Cambridge. I'm wondering how you managed to bounce back. And if you have any tips on this. Yes, Erica. I surround yourself with good people. You need a good support network, be that your family, be that colleagues it doesn't have to be lots of people but you need those people around you that so when you come back from court. So we sort of graphic example, I did a case once and we made an application we, you know, it wasn't made prior to the hearing but it didn't have to be, because something arose it was a family case is this quite a few years ago. And the other parties I think I was one of the parents the other parties will sort of grumbling slightly but you know these things happen and they didn't make a big song and dance about it. And the judge turned to me and said Miss Monroe in this country, we don't deal with palm tree justice. And I kind of looked around the court thinking, well that's really racist everyone's going to be, you know, backing me up on that, and nobody did. My client just sat there with their head in their hands thinking, God, you know, if things weren't bad enough the judge really hates my barrister as well. I said, did no one hear that and they were like, no not really and they just kind of left it. And I was almost in tears but I thought I'm you know going to front this out. And I went home and I sort of remember pacing around the room thinking what am I going to do about this and I phoned up Mike, Mike Mansfield, I said Mike, this is what happened today and he was like who's the judge. Which court were they in? And he literally got on the phone straight away to have it out with them and said, whatever, whatever fallout, I'll take fallout, we've got your back. And knowing that, you know, and when things like that happened, you know, there were other women, particularly, you know, there were some really amazingly strong women that tooks who as a young barrister they kind of, you know, they cradled you and nurtured you and they were there when you came back and you were feeling down and they would see, you know, why are you looking a bit miserable you're usually smiling and laughing at us and what's wrong. And you tell them, and they'd be, I've experienced that this is how we deal with it, we don't, you know, we don't internalize it. And having that constantly, someone saying, you know, don't internalize it, talk to us, you know, we will have your back, made a huge difference, which is why I persevered. And also because of the, you know, the love of the job, you know, it's as Kailin says, you know, I wouldn't get out of bed on a, on a cold winter morning to get on a train that Kings Cross at six o'clock to go to Manchester or Durham or Cardiff or to do a to do a corporate case, but I do it for the clients and I do it for the work I do so I think it's a combination of doing something and making sure you're doing work that you are passionate about that you do feel really passionate about but having that support network that's going to cradle you but also sort of sometimes giving you tough love and saying, you know, don't, you know, don't internalize this, don't take this, don't, you know, slouch and literally let it grind you down you've just got to, you know, face up to these people because you are good enough, you know, Sandra Graham is my pupil supervisor, and she sadly passed away and amazed at quite young and absolutely amazing and she was funny, she was clever, she was brave, she was bold and Sandra would always, you know, sort of set me straight whenever I was going down a little bit, she'd be there and there are people like that, I mean that's a fantastic thing as well that there are people like that at the bar, Keelan will tell you this from her experiences as well, there are people, good people at the bar who are there, you know, you know, because they want to do the right thing, do right, doing the right thing and doing right isn't the same as necessarily doing justice and to do right and be fearless. There are people like that, so Erica, that's how, I mean that's how I found a mechanism to bounce back and, you know, in terms of tips I would give you, because, you know, I understand that, you know, you say that your experience of Cambridge is similar and it resonates, because I was so involved in politics and it kind of, at some point was kind of slightly all consuming to me, but I know, you know, people that I'm still friends with now, people who were my contemporaries had a very, very different experience of Cambridge and had three quite miserable years, you know, or a very good friend of mine, if she was here she would have a very, very different tale to tell about her experience being in a, I think when we got, when we first came in 85, Peter House had just taken women, she was one of the first intakes, horrific, it was horrific and I remember it, some of it was absolutely horrific, you know, so I can interrupt because I'm going to move you on, but I'd also say just very briefly to Erica and to Allison, Cambridge and the pandemic is of course particularly isolating for students. I feel really my heart bleeds for students who are not able to go and join political clubs in the way that you were able to, and Erica I hope that you can reach out and find sympathetic allies out there. Those are tough times. A not unrelated question comes from anonymous attendee, which is a variation on the question which are often asked to criminal barristers, how can you ever defend somebody who knows guilty. What anonymous attendee says is, are you always working for the right client and I thought it was worth asking you that question because I think most of you, certainly persona is always working for the right client, I think as far as she's concerned. I think most of you have positioned your career so that you don't have this problem about how can you deal with cases where you feel you're perhaps on the wrong side, for example arguing in defence of human rights claims rather than for them. Is it something that still happens to you all. Olivia and then Keelan. For me, less in terms of the human rights aspect but certainly I am regularly representing those who, if the question were in relation to criminal proceedings would be considered guilty and a client I had relatively recently was accused of and found by the court to have killed her adopted child. So yeah, it's, it's part and parcel of the job and it's just something that you do because you have to and it's essential because how could the justice system function properly if you weren't to. That's my answer anyway. Say something really quick just from that which is, and, first of all, if you haven't seen it, it's worth seeing Diana roses rather brilliant letter yesterday on the cabra in principle, and you've probably seen it but if you haven't, and do take a look at was published by Joshua Rosenberg. And I would have a look at that about arguing the Cayman Islands case. And I don't express any view on that she she's against my colleague Edward Fitzgerald. You see who's acting in the case for the women who want to seek gay marriage but if you look at that there's been a very interesting debate in the last 24 hours on Twitter on that precise issue. And the other thing I would say is that in the will to other things the first thing is I entirely agree with the point that's just been made about the rule of law. Our job as barristers being to represent our clients interests, and under the cabra and principle within England and Wales that's what you do now it's quite different when you're looking at some international issues for example. So, there is no obligation to accept the case, and arguing for the death penalty, for example there's a range of cases where you can have red lines, and which are international cases, and where those issues don't rise. But just domestically, the picture is quite complicated so just to give you an example, within my chambers, and my colleagues who do criminal defense which I don't do, and sometimes acting cases where they are acting for an individual who is from the state body of an organization like Circo or G4S in criminal proceedings for other colleagues of mine are acting for the bereaved family in the inquest, or similarly, some of my colleagues who do international criminal law represent on an international stage individuals accused of the most violent crimes against humanity, and they represent them in criminal defense internationally, and when there's obviously a human rights side to that but there's also a human right side in acting for the victims, and in seeking accountability for those forms, those forms of those actions. So, it's also important just to remember that actually in the human rights field, often the human rights role can be on one side or the other and the picture is a lot more complicated than just thinking you're on the right side or the wrong side. So, I hope that helps. Thank you. Julia you've been very quiet. I'm going to ask you in a minute whether you have a question before we come to the end but before that who solo wants to come in. I'll be really quick. I was only going to say that, you know, I'm very lucky in my job that if I think that somebody is being prosecuted, and that that decision is incorrect, I can take steps to stop that. And so, you know, it's a privilege actually to be in that position. And I think, although I don't myself defend anymore I did used to defend. And I always think when I'm asked that question if it were my sister, or me, or my brother or my mother who were accused of something terrible, would I want them just to be thrown to the walls or would I want them to be to be protected with the law and to be represented properly so that the law was applied, you know, as fairly as possible so that justice was done and I think there is no alternative really to make sure to making sure that even people we think are dreadful who have done terrible things are treated in accordance with that law and that's only going to be possible. If they're well represented so I don't, I didn't find it terribly difficult to defend when I used to do it, and I don't find it difficult to prosecute. Yeah, that was all I wanted to say really. Thank you. Firstly, can I just say thank you everyone very much it's really inspiring to hear from women who are basically just leading the way for the rest of us. I think one of the questions that I get asked quite a lot as the president of the Graduate Law Society is more of a practical side about well we know we want to do it we know we love this but how do we get there it's so competitive so many people in this field. So I suppose on a sort of application point. How does one really beyond the generic well make sure that you've got XYZ make sure you've got the grades and many peopleages but what is it that in terms of a passion you can really show that will make you stand out because as we know it's particularly tough in a pandemic for anyone to get any work experience you can't go out there and do things. So for any of our listeners today who have decided they want to be a barrister I know a lot of people in the chat already done the bar course. What can they do that makes them really stand out. And what about that extra question from anonymous attendee again about is it significantly more difficult to get a pupillage for the two one. Well I think the answer has to be doesn't it of course it's more difficult to get a pupillage for the two one because in fact there's so much more to you than your degree and a fabulous person with the two one will get the pupillage ages before the boring person with the first who hasn't got any life in their head. I don't know whether you can give any more advice to anonymous attendee as well as answering Julia's question. I had a look at this just before we logged on and in terms of the CPS. They have a minimum requirement of a two two. And then if you meet certain eligibility criteria and you then you you get considered properly. So if you can step over that hurdle of getting at least a two two. You are considered at the same in the same way as everybody else. So that's certainly the case with the civil service so you know I can speak about that. And then after after that first stage of getting to being considered and going through the paper then it's kind of up to you actually to sparkle and to show who you are at the following in the following rounds which consists of a legal test and an interview and role play and all sorts of other things so once you can jump that first hurdle and get past the same paper sift then you are absolutely considered with everybody else. So persona's busy selling the CPS and the government legal service, which of the rest of you would like to speak Alison. I think that Olivia and Keeland alluded and spoke about this earlier. When you're applying to do your research, you know, tailor your application to those chambers that you want to apply for so that it's not a sort of plan generic document that it's actually shows that you've looked at who is here, what work are they doing, why are they doing that kind of work, you know, show, show an interest, tailor your application accordingly. And, you know, a first as opposed to a two one that's not the end that's a criteria but it's not the only criteria. You know, I've been doing a took size to be on the pupillage and tenancy committee for many, many years. And I saw the changes that, you know, initially used to be people would send you letters and CVs and it became far more formalized and it's sort of similar to sort of going to university, you know, you have proper forms and people actually applied equal opportunity criteria and all the rest of it. So you look at the person as a whole. And, you know, someone not everybody is going to have the money or the ability to go off and do internships in the UN and do exciting things abroad and work in Strasbourg in their spare time. You know, there were people I can think of people that we gave pupillages to who had done none of that, because they couldn't afford to, they spent their year between university, graduating and doing their pupillage applied to so many of the pupillages working in a local shop, you know, to earn enough money to, you know, help out their parents, you know, so you look at that if you look at the individual, what is this person going to be bringing to chambers, you know, what, what is this person going to be adding to the chamber and you think about all those different skills and they're a myriad when you sit down and you think about yourself as a person and what you can bring. So, you know, so couple that was doing real research into the chambers, and it will stand out and those people do stand out so it's solely on academic criteria or which university you went to or how many internships you did, you know, they, to an extent, you know, they are secondary really to you as the individual and why you want to be embarrassed to show that passion that Keelan spoke about. So that's what I look for when sifting through pupillage applications. Keelan, you're itching to get in. Just a quick thing. Well, two things. I will answer that question in a moment. I just wanted to say just a couple of sentences on the question earlier about money, which I know is not something we necessarily talk about that much, but I think it is that there are quite a few questions about whether this work is financially sustainable. And I did just want to flag I mean this is not her shirt, you know, we're all very privileged, you know, you look at the average income that people earn around the country, and this is a job where people can and do earn good money. You're all earning more than teachers and social workers, aren't you? Well, exactly. That's exactly what I was going to say. I mean, you know, I mean the amount, obviously we're not going to all air the precise amounts, but you know, we do earn more than teachers and social workers, people who do really fundamentally important jobs. We earn more than a lot of doctors and so on. And the other thing is within publicly funded work, there's a huge range. Now where the real crunch point comes is criminal defense work. Criminal defense work at the moment is under tremendous pressure. And for those of you who haven't seen it, you should try to catch up on the APPG, the old party parliamentary group on legal aid. Their sessions are all available online and you can see the brilliant work that's been done there. And you can see the evidence about just how appallingly low the pay is at the bar in particular for junior criminal defense barristers. And also the impact of swinging cuts to legal aid. Unfortunately, it's had a particular impact on women, particular impact on people from a minority background, because they tend to be more, there's quite good statistics. They tend to be more in criminal defense and other areas that have been badly hit. But there's other areas of publicly funded work which are actually relatively well paid and we're all pretty comfortable. For example, if you do public law work, the bottom line is that actually the amount we're being paid hourly, you know, it might be less than some of our other colleagues at the bar, it's still pretty good, actually. And there are serious delays with payments. But if you win your cases, and you get into parties costs, you get paid a commercial rates. So, you know, I just want to talk brass tacks, we are earning far far more than the vast majority of people in this country. And I do think that's important. I don't want people to think that and it's the equivalent of doing a kind of voluntary job and it's all very low paid because that's not necessarily the case. And if you are concerned about finances, but you are driven to do social justice work. Just think carefully about what specific bits you want to do because some of them are better paid than others. And there are ways to make it at work and for you to be very comfortable on how to get there people have made brilliant comments on the two one to two issue can I just say this. Of course, it's undoubtedly more difficult if you don't have a first and you are against people who have fantastic results all the way through top of their class top of their year and so on. But there are many, many examples of people with two twos and even lower who have carved out very successful careers at the bar. And if you don't know him, I recommend that you take a look at my colleague Tunde Ocquale, who founded Urban Lawyers, who speaks very openly about the fact that he's from a Hackney Council estate. He got a tutu in large part because he was working in Sainsbury's whilst trying to do his law degree because he was under a lot of financial pressure within his family. And when he applied to our chambers, he was completely upfront about his circumstances. And like Alison, I've gone through many of these forms. And when people say, you know, the reason that I don't have super duper list of moot in competitions and doing all these fancy internships is because in order to make my way through university I needed to work in a bar. You know, when they spell it out and explain it and it's clear that it's taken into account and many chambers now have a recognition of life circumstances and difficulties and they take that into account. So if there's a good reason explain it and I would just emphasize that. And finally, I put it in the chat but in case people haven't seen it, the Human Rights Lawyers Association and has a specific bursary which was parked in the last year because of the financial budget but it's a specific bursary for people who do not have the financial means to do an internship at the UN or other roles which might involve either working on paid or needing to travel. And you can make an application to them for funding in order to do a specific piece of work which you otherwise couldn't do for financial reasons. And I put the link in the chat in reply to one of the questions and I urge you to take a look about opportunities like that which you can use if you're under financial pressure to bolster your CV. And I'm going to stop it then because we've hit the witching hour, and I want to say you're all brilliant, wonderful, fantastic. And we could go on all evening but we're not going to go on all evening. Really, thank you amazingly. Julia, do you want to say anything I want to say thank you to Julia. And then I'll get the last word to Albertina. I just want to thank everyone for coming as well and to let you know that some good news is that we are everyone really on our committee by one our females so we're going to hopefully try and claw some of those figures back to something that's a little bit less unbalanced but thank you very much Albertina thank you Claire thank you Dan and Nikki thank you so much for your wonderful chairing. I'm so grateful that everyone could attend and this has been really inspirational thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much I seem to have some trouble turning my video on, but I'm here. Thank you so much for a wonderful session. It's been really inspirational and for giving up your time to be with us today. Thank you so much and also thank you to do Nikki for excellent chairing. Thank you everybody and make sure you go to the bar they need you.