 Tervetuloa takaisin, että on todella hyvää kautta. Hyvää järjestelmää. Mä oon tullut katsomaan, että ihmisiä voidaan loppua. Otetaan. Hei kaikkein. Tervetuloa Tervetuloa. Minä olen Viljan. Kopenhagen on Isak Rauti. Mitä on Isak? Mä oon hyvä, miten olet? Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Seuraavaksi, kun sinä olet tullut katsomaan Tervetuloa, olen tullut katsomaan, että ihmisiä voidaan loppua. Tervetuloa. Tervetuloa Tervetuloa. Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Tervetuloa. Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Mä oon hyvä, kiitos. Tervetuloa. Ei ole hyvä, ja me ajattavasti, että ensimmäinen katsotaan, että ymmärrän Euroopan läheä ja ymmärrän, ja ymmärrän, että me saimme uusi puolesta ja katsomme, että mitä tapahtuu. Se näkyy, että twice as much capital invested in European tech in Q1 of 2021, ja basically any quarter before that. Do you have any thoughts on why that is? Yeah, I have many thoughts, and it's true that since the day I joined 11 years ago to today, things have changed quite a bit. It's been a bit of a while run, and things have accelerated, and I think that's what happened with these businesses, where they themselves have accelerated and have gotten a lot larger. You have companies like Addian, like Spotify, which are worth the $50 billion plus, which would never have thought of anything of that magnitude a decade ago. So you had companies growing very fast, especially in recent years, to larger scale, a lot faster. You have entrepreneurs and early team members who are starting company, who are investing in early search companies. So you have that flywheel that's now being, and also just to some extent, I think there is just a catching up. Europe always had fantastic talent, always had great infrastructure, very fast broadband, and the only thing that was somewhat lacking originally was the capital, but that's what's happening now. There is a catching up, and I think that piece has been solved as well. Now the only thing that's left to do is really around talent and around regulation, European company to scale quickly across Europe to hire easily across Europe. That's the last missing piece that we've been fighting for for a couple of years now with the index. So it sounds like it's a long process that is now coming to some sort of combination point. It's easy to look at, if we say Q1 of 2021, it's easy to make a connection with the pandemic and see how that has affected this whole situation. Do you see that as sort of, it sounds like it's not a cause of this, but how do you see the role of the pandemic in this culmination of Q1? Yeah, it's been definitely a catalyst and for, I'd say, two main reasons. One is the impact on the businesses themselves, which a lot of them have benefitted from the fact that people were just stuck at home and had to use the internet for pretty much everything from ordering food to entertaining themselves. There has been obviously a lot of that, especially on the consumer front. We've done a lot of consumer investments over the past 12 months because there's really been an acceleration and we believe that it's, for a lot of these businesses, it's given them a lot of new customers for a very low amount, but these customers are going to stick around. So it's just made them better businesses, more profitable businesses and growing fast from a bigger base of customers. And obviously the second aspect is also related to the VC business itself. It's that we used to have a very structured process where we had to meet in person for the due diligence for the partner presentation. Folks had to fly to London to meet in person on Monday afternoon. It was a very, very kind of limited window and very kind of strict and structured process and all of that had just been thrown out. Now you can do due diligence any time of the week. You spend half a day and you meet 10 people from the team, the whole senior team. So you can do much better due diligence. You get a lot more data because everything is now kind of being recorded and monitored and everything is online. And then you can have partner presentation any time of the week. Why should it be on a Monday afternoon? It can be on a Thursday evening. It can be on Friday morning. Just with the US team, it's opened up a lot more windows because again, we work as one team together. So it's a bit more of a tactical thing but I think that actually has had a big impact on just the number of companies that you could meet. And also for entrepreneurs, especially in Europe where if you were not based in London and you had to travel there, you could only meet the funds that were in London, suddenly you can meet with anyone anywhere in Europe but also in the US and the rest of the world. So it's made access to capital, access to people. It's really kind of too overcharged it. Yeah, it's kind of confusing from a founder's perspective actually because there's a lot of mixed signals at least. I've had a lot of discussions also about the EU not being able to produce big companies, losing out on platform economies, over-regulating everything. Bullshit! So as a founder... I want to hear this debate. Yeah, no, it's not a debate from my side but there's a lot of this discussion actually going on that Europe lost the platform economy at least on the consumer side and there's no big companies coming out. At least if you compare to companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, really the giant tech companies. So do you think Europe is still a good place to be as a founder? Absolutely. It's a great place to live. It's a great place to hire talent. It's a great place to raise capital. The rule of law is fantastic. I think it's a fantastic place to live. You can attract talent and the beauty is today you don't even have to attract talent anymore. You can hire people from wherever they are. We've been bullish. That's really why index got set up 25 years ago. We believed that you looked at the facts and the number of computer science graduates there are more of them than in the US. You've got great universities, you've got fantastic talent, you've got great capital. There's no reason why there wouldn't be the case. The only advantage that European companies have is the fragmentation of each individual European markets for certain types of industries. Obviously if you do, a lot of these businesses are going after global opportunities. If you go for music or gaming, there are many consumer categories, enterprise software. You have very large markets that are global from day one and you have had fantastic successes from European companies or European entrepreneurs who have moved to the US. There's no reason why there is. I would even challenge the fact that it is true. Clearly we don't have yet companies of the scale of Google and Amazon. If you look at the next generation of businesses, Spotify is a platform business for music. At the end, to a larger extent, is a key infrastructure piece for the internet, for the e-commerce. Companies like Delivery, Delivery Hero, Justice, they are new types of platforms for hyper-local delivery. You look at what's happening in the hyper-local delivery world. There are many more companies coming from Europe than in the US. I would argue that there are much more interesting companies because European companies are very dense and these businesses are very well suited to Europe. I think we shouldn't listen to the defeatists and the cynics and just look at the facts. If you just fast forward what's been happening in the past 10 years, for the next 10 years, for sure we're going to have some Giga platform-scale businesses out of Europe. It's like music to my ears, but what do you think if I rephrase William's question, because there's still something in it, why would you say that this hasn't happened already? It takes time. I'm sorry, it's a bit of an easy answer, but when we talk about flywheel, you need to get started and then you need to leave the time for the wheel to turn. Those cycles from starting a company to going public, it will take you, if you're really fast, it will take you 7 years. Deliveroo started in 2013 going public today and that was a really fast growing business. If you're a bit less fast, it will take you 10, 12, 15 years. You were talking about transfer wise, UI path, fantastic IPO, how long has it been around, whatever, 15 years. Until that's been happening, until these businesses are public, which means that the founders have become wealthy. The early team and the employees, and that's something we've been obviously pushing forward with index for as many, it's for every employee to have options and as many options as possible to really see that next generation. So you need these people to have some wealth, have experience seeing that scale and going through that scale. But you need, we just didn't have these companies and add-ins, Spotify, UI paths, Deliveroo, they've all come public fairly recently and only now you're seeing the next generation with even bigger ambitions, more capital, more experience. But again, it's going to take them, they started over the past five years, it's going to take them another five years. You won't really see them at that scale for another five years. Yeah, I think that's a fair point when you think about businesses like Google or Amazon, they feel quite new, but people forget that they are already quite old. Microsoft and Apple are like really old companies in a sense, so it's not maybe, it's not a fair comparison, I agree with that. And they themselves got built on the shoulders of giants, and they got, Jeff Bezos invested in Google and it was already that, that flywheel was already there. They already had these successful people around. Exactly. And the language which Europe is just getting to now. Yeah, while running the numbers also, we saw that running the numbers sounds very fancy, but we came across the fact that also free seed and seed rounds, both in amounts of capital and also amounts of rounds have been declining or not maybe declining, but staying quite stagnant in Europe for the past five years. Is that something you're worried about? Because that's obviously maybe a bit part of the flywheel effect and ensuring the future of big companies being founded in Europe. We haven't thought about that to a massive extent to be honest. We were super bullish about seed. We in fact just launched a new seed fund called Index Origin, $200 million. Half of that is going to go, at least it's going to go to European companies. So we have been doing a lot of seed since the inception of index. We'll double down, triple down on that. I don't see that. Our pipeline has never been fuller, so I don't really recognize. I don't dispute the numbers. I trust you guys, the quality of your research and analysis, of course, but it's definitely not what we've seen. We've seen tons of activity and yeah, I think it's just, maybe there is probably at any moment of time, there's probably a finite number of great opportunities. If you take a step back, an opportunity is the meeting between a change in customer needs, whether the customer is an individual or a company, and a technology enabling a new solution for that need. You need the two to happen together. At any moment of time, you've only got so much technology and so many entrepreneurs to go after that opportunity sets. It's clear there is a phenomenon where you have, on these new opportunities, you have a certain number of companies at the beginning running for it and then very quickly when you see what's happening with the 10 minute grocery delivery is a good example where the few winners get selected probably faster than they would have in the past because it's just this wall of capital that comes in very quickly as soon as there is clear product market fit and you're on a large market, then you have a wall of capital that focuses on a few opportunities that can then really get turbo charged and make it very big very quickly. Which probably is maybe a new feature of this market. I'd like to speak more on the index origins project. What's the thesis behind that? The thing is that we've always done a lot of seed. This is really part of the index DNA. We love to be the first check in a company. Be there since the very early days. And we also felt we just wanted to help the ecosystem. The spirit of this fund is not to build big ownership to sharp elbow other funds out of these funds at all. It's the exact opposite. We see it as a vehicle to actually work with the ecosystem, work with the early stage funds with the angels. Whenever we invest we try to bring in funds with us, we try to bring in angels even if in a way it's a proprietary deal. We very much want to use that to work and collaborate with more people and just help the ecosystem. But for us it's really a way to build relationships very early, see the stories from the early day and help out we've got some dedicated resources to help with the first hires with the first customers. And that's just contributing to that effort. Well, there's other big VC firms doing the same like Clyder Perkins and Sequoia. Do you think they come from the same place? Is it about identifying and trying to get to the best founders as early as possible? I don't want to comment on their strategy. I would let them do that. I think the thing that we're trying to do again a little bit differently is that we're not proprietary. I think that's the thing that we really want to emphasize here is that this is actually an opportunity for us to work with more folks and not the opposite. And I'm not sure that's the case for everyone. Right. There's also a switching gears a little bit to talk about companies going public which is happening in massive numbers these days. Why do you think that is? Is this something temporary for the new status quo? Yeah, there is clearly a window that is open in the market. I think people are keen on getting exposure to these fast growth opportunities. In the world where there is low yield if you're managing large amount of money you need to find ways to generate growth and today it's more on the capital growth side of things that is generated by these companies. I think that it is just the fact that people have seen that the past 10 years has been an almost abnormal return for these high tech growth companies. And they've seen the successes of the Shopify of this world and many others where there has been a lot of value creation on the public market and so there is just a lot of appetite. And I think so that's on the one hand there are several public market environments. And on the other hand you just have a lot of companies coming of age. All of these companies that got built from basically 08 which is when the iPhone really got released and started scaling so a lot of these mobile whether it's actually on the application side on the consumer side all of these mobile related companies Uber, Deliverware, BNB the world or on the infrastructure side everything around the cloud and everything that needs to be managed on the cloud those two very very large areas they all got started around 08 and as I was saying you take minimum 7 years and very often 10-15 years to get public while you get to 2019 2020-2021 and there's a few more coming out of that out of that cohort so I think that's also that phenomenon this cohort that was enabled by new technology and new user behavior that is now coming of age. I think that's a good perspective something we've thought about as well and probably if you look at that trend that's something that's not going to slow down anytime soon since the ecosystem with engineers and with more venture capitalists as well is coming of age as well so there should be more mature companies hopefully coming also and being listed in the coming years but we thought we'd go over some of your investments and through that also maybe some of your ways of thinking and mental models and starting off by obviously the last 12-15 months have been quite difficult in many ways for many people and many people are struggling to reassess how to think about the world post pandemic or even now and as investor you obviously need to also look at the world as a generalist and know quite a lot of things and understand quite a wide variety of aspects of it but how do you think it's how should you assess the world in the middle of all this is it going to totally change or are the fundamentals still the same I think it's the fundamentals are the same they are but the trends have accelerated I think people will by and large go back to the office for example I think they by and large will go back eat at restaurants and go to concerts and go to football matches so a lot of the behaviors we had before I think people quite enjoy them and they are all related to very deep seated human needs of connected on the human level of experiencing things physically with their senses so there's a lot of fundamentals that are not going to change but on the other hand it's opened up it's accelerated in the weather it's forced people to experience things they wouldn't have experienced otherwise and realize that actually there's a lot of things that they used to do in person that are actually done very nicely on the smartphone yesterday just to give you a concrete example I I used Levy so free it's called Levy in the UK and it reminded me of basically I went on the app I booked an appointment half an hour later I had one and with the GP we had the meeting they recommended me a course of action and it took me it took ten minutes of my time for the exact same results that I would have had hired before but that would have meant booking calling them trying to find the time probably in two to three days at least going there taking half an hour meeting in person going back half an hour so the whole thing so I would have had for the same results there was nothing to examine really so that's just one example of many things that are just done so much better virtually and that just don't need to be physical because it's very transactional and that's just one of many healthcare is a massive space so just some of these massive spaces that are all going to move a lot of it is going to move online faster but this was pre was already in existence before Covid it didn't invent pre it just kind of turbo charged it again so I think that's the that's one thing you talked about mental model and I want to say something about that people have different ways of working and analysing things some are very intuitive and they go with the flow I'm more analytical and so just to give you an example what I did probably in April or May last year I spent the day just kind of doing a mind maps of what are the first order and second order consequences of what is happening now and it was not to kind of top down say okay I'm going to invest in all of these businesses it was more of just being aware of what are the trends that are going to be accelerated to the end in the long run by what's happening and not the obvious one your stack at home you do telemedicine instead of going to see a doctor in person but what is the second order and potentially third order consequence of that and so yeah I just spent the day kind of mapping all of these just to make sure that I wasn't missing anything and that it wasn't necessarily to go after these opportunities kind of top down I'm more of a bottom up I like to follow entrepreneurs and I trust them a lot more than I trust myself to come up with brilliant ideas and show me opportunities that are exciting rather than me telling them what they should be working on but to have a prepared mind for what was going to come so that's just the way I did it so that's just to give you a sense for my way of working Do you want to share a bit of that mental map or is that your golden goose that you want to keep a secret well I mean the reality is there was nothing there was nothing radically new or unexpected that came out of that it was more making it comprehensive and going one or two layers deeper than just the obvious and forcing myself to have to go through that thinking and that's something that's actually really hard when you are in the day to day you've got your whatever 8, 9, 10 portfolio companies there's always something going on some new funding, some new strategies hiring so you're working really hard with them you've got looking at all of these new potential investments on the other side but then you still need to find some headspace to be sometimes a little bit more deliberate and a little bit more structured in your thinking and that's balancing of the things that's the tricky piece Exactly we mentioned platform economy a few times already through delivery and the EU but how do you view the future of that you're obviously involved in delivery and anchor store but looking at the future what are some of the untapped markets or yet to be tapped into opportunities in the platform platform economy One area, I guess when you set platform there is an element of marketplace which is a little bit the way we think about it there is one big area which we've been investing in quite a bit about the past 12 months which is on the B2B side I think there's still going to be some B2C innovation food is obviously one healthcare like some of these which are still a lot less penetrated than some other markets obviously second hand fashion marketplace you've got some very big players meal delivery you've got some big players so those clearly the new ones are not going to look like the old ones and they're going to go after probably less penetrated markets but then there's one massive area where you still don't have a lot of very big players on the B2B side so you mentioned anchor store we're also investing in a business called cargo one which is kind of air cargo booking we're about to close another investment in another B2B marketplace so this is the one of those that's been in the past 12 months and we believe that's a big area for a few reasons why massive spaces, we're talking hundreds of billions of trillions in some cases for some of these verticals and the other thing is a lot of still very manual or very analog in a base case people use emails and that's kind of the most modern but very often people still use faxes and phone calls if you look at the air cargo market that's still very much how it's done you've got these airlines an airline like TAP has 30 or 40 employees just managing taking on bookings mostly on the phone and through emails and so that's definitely right for disruption and on the other hand you have two things happening you have consumers or actually users expectations that they have from their personal life if they can book a flight using kayak and sky scanner why when they work in the freight for waters why can't they book air cargo using the same equivalent to kayak so that's what they want they don't want to send a fax they don't know how to use a fax machine so that just doesn't work with that new generation and plus now suddenly you have again you have changing user needs and expectations and technology that's become a lot better to handle these more complex transactions you need different kind of payments you got a lot of data that needs to be extracted from legacy enterprise software so you need a very strong API a lot of backend integrations you need a lot more faceting searching more sophisticated type of searches and booking experience versus consumer more standard and basic in many cases and those technologies just weren't there before for that to happen and we feel like now you've got those two again this is a moment where user expectation and technology finally meeting to unlock very large spaces so that's an area where we've been spending quite a bit of time yeah we did a podcast with a Finnish leading university actually with a researcher into market basis and platform economy and he had the same conclusion as you guys had Interesting, just to say that I need to listen to that yeah that was interesting as well maybe as a last case you had this article on your website by Mark Goldberg and I found it pretty interesting there was this quote the battleground for consumer finance has shifted from technology to brand and pop culture has become the ultimate weapon it was kind of a stopping quote for me how do you view that since you've been heavily involved with with Revolute of course yeah it is a fascinating phenomenon I think it took almost everyone by surprise but when you think about it it kind of makes sense people are they are on Twitter and they are on Instagram they are on TikTok there is no reason why most sectors and most activities would become gamified and terrified and kind of and memified to some extent and obviously Robin Hood saw that and really sees the moment and managed to make to turn stock trading in particular into something a lot more accessible to many more people it's not personally that's not my strength when I grew up I didn't watch TV so I don't have a great sense for pop culture I have to admit that's really my framework of analysis of a kind of analytical structure person and to me I like to go back always to the fundamentals and of course you always have the game stuff and then the Dogecoin and some more funny and crazy phenomenon so you don't think it's going to go to the moon? yeah I know exactly and that's fun I love it but when I invest I like to really go back to first principle and look at is it 10x cheaper is it 10x faster is it 10x better experience than the existing going back almost to Jeff Bezos approach of what stays the same people want the cheapest price and the more choice and the best convenience really going back to those fundamentals and if you think about Revolute if you think about Robinhood at the end of the day those were incredible product where they had both an insight a new business model and a new angle to kind of make it 10x better so Robinhood was free free trading and fractional trading Revolute was free effects so they all had this this wedge and the fact that you can't beat free that's as good as it gets and it's so much better than what's existing plus you had an incredible product vision and insight and the fact that on mobile there was a different experience that was required versus what was offered and you had those two things coming together that made it 10x cheaper and 10x better and so it was so compelling that as a consumer product you need to grow at the beginning without marketing those are all of the most successful consumer companies there is no supply constraint they are not demand constraint because they have something so compelling that people can't get enough of and they don't have to sell it all they have to do is focus on building infrastructure and making sure it scales as quickly as possible those are the very very big outlayers all of them in the early days that they had such a compelling value proposition and then after that to go maybe cross a chasm and go into the mainstream they will all have to become a lot more attuned to pop culture and go and become household names and being quoted in rap songs and have memes made about them and they are very very best they will get there but at the end of the day that's not really I'm not too interested in the one that are just that aspect and they are great memes and they capture the zeitgeist but there is no first principle thinking because we invest for 10 year horizons and fads just a fad where are they going to be in 10 years they may be still there but they may not and you know I want to invest in things where I know that the fundamentals are there in 10 years time I can be confident and they are only going to be better companies and stronger and more valuable than they were when they were smaller yeah I think that's a good no matter what happens the fundamentals don't change we're always going to be social monkeys living on a small rock small finite rock and that's never going to change or maybe someday who knows maybe in 100 years we won't be but yeah we have a few more questions a few more questions left actually about you Martin you've been at index for 10 years now did you say 11 actually in your introduction so what did you learn what did you learn during these years I didn't know anything when I started the list is long I don't even know where to start but there are a few things one is I got very fortunate to incredibly lucky to be working at index this is just such a privilege every day I repeat it to myself I don't even have to repeat it I'm just amazed I'm like a kid in a candy store really that's how happy I am I've been very fortunate to it's an apprenticeship business the venture capital world and you need to and being able to learn from the best the best investors and seeing the best entrepreneurs operate from up close it's an incredible experience and so my first learning is try to be surround yourself and work directly with the very best people you can but optimize for that optimize for the learning that you get from the direct relationship with the very best people so I think that's that's really the most important thing and that's been the most transformational thing in my life because you are the sum of the people you spend time with and you spend a lot of time to choose those people very carefully especially in my case I spent as I said a couple of years in investment banking before and if I had no intention of staying there and there was always a short term stop but if I had stayed there I think it would have made me a very different person not only in work but in my life in general in the people I would have met in my outlook on the world in my optimism and how I see things and arguably a much I prefer the the person I have become being at the index of being in this industry the other thing which is more related to investment itself I would say is there are very few things that really matter at the end of the day there is a lot of noise there is a lot of movement people are always trying to run around and turn every stone and get caught up in the moment but at the end of the day you have very few opportunities that really matter so for me the first one was joining index but after that while at index there were a few big calls that need to be made investing in in delivery in revolution in personio in train line but you don't have hundreds of them you have if you are in most cases you are going to have one or two if you are very lucky you are going to have five maybe ten after a very long period of time but you need to make sure that you make these big calls that you are in a position to make these big calls and that you see the potential when you have this high level of conviction and you are in front of really big opportunities that you lean in that you forget everything else that you shut down the rest of your life and your monkey brain and you just focus on this one thing and you give everything you have because nothing else matters really at that moment in time and that's a really making the difference between what's relevant and what's critical the very few things that really really matter and can change your career, your life you know for a very long time for maybe generations potentially that's the thing that it's really hard until you've seen it and you've lived through these very few companies that go mega it's really hard to really to comprehend it because at the series there all companies look roughly the same you know they all have a million of them and they all kind of roughly the same thing and it's obviously really hard so finding and identifying the very very few that instead of growing 50% or 100% you can grow 10x just an order of magnitude larger they are the one that really make a difference it's not about investing your money it's also about investing your time if you are an employee joining one of those absolute rocket ships is going to again change your career change your life both personally financially and on many different levels and I think focusing on those and really finding those is that would be at least at the beginning of your career once you've done it a few times you can optimize for other things in terms of the learning curve those are the places to be yeah this is really refreshing sometimes here these perspectives in hindsight someone says the first time I saw that guy I knew that was the you never knew really it just ended up happening that way it's a very refreshing perspective from you finally you have some campaigns so that I don't botch up the names so this campaign called not optional startup nation standard feel free to talk about that and also I heard you have a podcast coming index welcome to the club yeah yeah I know exactly who does and this does exactly no so not optional it's a campaign we've launched maybe 3 bits years ago this is it started as we've been doing a lot of work around started very the first step was every single company was asking us how many options do I need to give to whom so very simple every board meeting, every company every partner had a different answer and it was all kind of anecdotal okay that's not the way to do it we always tell our companies you need to productize you need to scale things so let's do the same for us and let's productize it and let's make something scalable and that can be automated and it can be trustworthy and consistent so we did a lot of work and research around how much equity is being given to whom at what stage in the US in different European countries and we created this tool called option plan so we wrote a book and created a tool that allows companies to create the option plan depending on at what stage they are the valuation, the growth rate and the sector and the country and then while doing that a few things became apparent one of which being there was quite a big gap between Europe and the US so typically European companies would give half of the number of options at exits versus US companies and they would give a lot more of these options to senior people versus junior people and the other thing that we realized was that there was a very big discrepancy between European European companies themselves depending on where they were and when we looked at the reasons why were sometimes less generous in Europe with options and why especially certain countries had big gaps is that the legal structure was very very different and you had so we ended up going through that rabbit hole of ranking each European country for how it kind of favourable to options they were and options are just to take a step back options are the most single most critical piece of tool that you have as an entrepreneur to attract talent into your company you can't pay the same salary as Google and Facebook your only currency is options and if you are in a country where either options don't exist which is still the case in some European countries are so painful and expensive because of tax and admin that really massive headache they are just not attractive to the employees which is the case in Belgium in Germany and Spain then you are such a big disadvantage you just can't attract talent into your business and you just can't compete and you can't grow the way you should be able to grow so this is such an important topic and so we went to this rabbit hole and started ranking countries realized some countries are brilliant you know the obviously imagine the Estonia all of the Baltic countries are incredible the UK was not too bad France was pretty good and then you had countries that were terrible you know Germany, Spain, Belgium Sweden so you had this massive massive discrepancies every country had their own different kind of setup so we started lobbying which is kind of not optional as a campaign really kind of bringing European entrepreneurs together especially in markets with really poor kind of option plan and Germany has been a very big movement where to try to at least first step is get everyone to let's say the level of France and Estonia and then second step will be let's try to harmonize and create who knows maybe some sort of passport where you can use if you can employ people from anywhere in Europe and you can use one single it's the same standard everywhere or at least you can use the standard from your home market to apply to that employee within that market so that's really what the option is all about and we made some big progress and Germany, Sweden has made some progress Ireland has made some progress Germany there's a new look coming but this is a long standing fight and we are pushing super hard on that to finish up on the podcast it's just a way it's related to another piece of work we've been doing around helping entrepreneurs European entrepreneurs go across the Atlantic and scale in the US and so we've just we published a book about that folks can find it on our website and in the podcast kind of a series around that to share some of that knowledge and bring more color to that bringing to incredible entrepreneurs like Daniel Eck and Peter van der Doors and also the new generation sharing some of their learnings especially on that very topic and so there's just a lot of learnings for any entrepreneur that wants to make it big and especially wants to make it big in the US that's really the focus sounds really good Destination USA check it out, all listeners will link to that and also the not optional program in the description of the episode it's been a real pleasure talking to you thanks so much for joining thank you so much, I loved it guys thank you to everyone who tuned in see you in the next episode again stay safe guys thank you