 That's great to get all the grants that we need the money for. As many people as we have, we need the torso of the fire police. See, the microphones have two purposes. One is for meter 4. Any other is for broadcast? There's always someone retiring. So, don't worry. Okay. The motion's critical, please. Pick up where I need to. Okay. So it is good, at least on the labor side, like for something like this. For this weather, it's different. It's actually bodies to put in place. It's going to be a sparsely. It's going to be a sparsely. Even on the stock, I would say. It might be a lot of air. That seems a little lingering. Somebody's budget is the first up. Maggie's budget is the first up. Well, I did remind the guys, otherwise, there's a meeting tonight, and you can, like the walkways are, you know, see? Well, we got it. Shoveled pretty well. I offer that. Let's see our legs right now. Yeah. Freezing. Sound check, okay? Are you? What's happening? I think we didn't go through that much in here. Of course, questions, are there any that you want to say? Or you just want to be here in case there's a question? Just want to be, but is the truth questions ready for you? Or can they be? Yeah, they're pretty much at A&M, so I think if there's any fire, we can do it. You do it right then, because I don't want to have to stay too long. I don't think it would be. Because you're going to mention our missing half the staff. Yes, I'll say that right after I even get to that budget. Thank you. I lose her again. Well, how about, did she just come back? I haven't seen her in a while. Oh, okay. I can drive for a bit if you need me to. I wouldn't, we don't need it on to start anything. We just lost it. I can, I'll drive till she gets back. Okay. Right. Like to call to order this, is this considered a special meeting? Yeah, I guess it is a special meeting of the South, yeah, there's a special session of the South Burlington City Council on Thursday, November 4th, for the purpose of hearing from department heads about our budget and January, December, like November, January 4th, in 2018. That's important. And we'll start with a Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. And looking at the audience, I appreciate everyone who did come out and drive through the storm. I think we probably all have had lots of experience driving through snowstorms in Vermont. So it was a little greasy, but, you know, get snow tires and you drive slowly. We all made it safely. So that's terrific. Hopefully we'll have snow tires. Pardon me? Yeah. Is that what you forgot? Yeah. But because of the weather, we also are offering the opportunity for the public to call in if they have questions related to the budget. And I would also like to have, if there are any people in the audience, when a particular department is giving their presentation, if the audience have questions, you'll have an opportunity once the council asks their questions to also either make a comment or address the department head since I think they will leave after they make their presentations and not stay to the very end. So the phone number, I can't read it from here, but Charlie has it on the television. So please call in. Can you read the number? Yes, there's three, eight, three, one, seven. So that's how we'll proceed tonight. Blue, unusual, but I think, you know, it's warranted from the weather and budgets are big deals. So our second item is approved disbursement. I don't think there were any. Okay. So we can flip over to budget presentations. And Tom's going to begin to cover with an overview. Excellent. Thank you, Tom. And there are a few department managers that live at a distance that won't be here tonight. So I'll try to put my hat on for those departments as well. I'll let you know right there at the call. Great. Thank you very much. So I'd like to begin with just kind of a general overview. Some of this much of disinformation I'm about to share. The council's already been made aware of, but I think in terms of the other presentations would be helpful information to have. So back in G, I think it was October. We sought guidance from you all in terms of where you felt comfortable with a percentage increase in terms of the tax rate. And I think what we heard at that time was something around three. The budget that you have received is 3.44%. This marginally maintains our current level of service. I know we've talked a little bit about that. It meets all of our contractual obligations. This will meet all of our bonded debt obligations. It supports as much of the proposed CIT as we were able to fit into the agency budget. It funds the annual assessments in support of other entities, continues support to the housing trust fund, and maintains the existing funding levels for the stewardship plan and the sick bank if we're hoping it to increase. Some of the revenue factors, we have both positive revenue factors and we have some negative revenue factors. We're starting with good stuff. On the positive side, we have a projected 3.25% growth in the grand list. That gives us approximately $221,000. With the 3% proposed increase, and I know we're a little bit more than that, in the tax rate, that's roughly $550,000. The proposed budget includes the use of grant money and impact fees for various projects separate from the general fund, and use of allocation from approved bonding, and this applies to both projects that are in the CIP for the open space fund, as well as the communications bond for equipment for the radios and the type of tower for all of our different departments with that upgrade, which was approved last year. On the negative side for the revenue factors, we've decreased the fire inspection revenue that we anticipate receiving. We've decreased it by $85,000. We actually feel we probably should have decreased that a little bit more, but we're still trying to make the budget work. So it's a high number that we hit a couple of years ago, but in the past year, as you know, it was significantly under what we had projected. So we're trying to bring it back into a more realistic zone that we can kind of stay with on a consistent basis. We did the same with electrical inspection. We decreased that by $25,000. We decreased the police department impact fees by $15,000. Again, these were to try to better align them in terms of what an actual projection would be. On the non-discretionary side of things, we have contractual agreements for salaries with an increase in public safety salaries of $166,000 and in non-public safety of $70,000. The health insurance increase, which is about 12%, is $218,000. And the pension increase that we talked a little bit about is $290,000. I just want to repeat that the market had a great year and it allowed us to do some things we probably wouldn't have been able to do. But because of those things that are going to help us in the long term, such as lowering the projected interest rate from 7.5% to 7.25%, that increased our liability on that end. We also raised the level of payout for someone leaving employment with the city. It used to be if they had under $10,000, they could collect that full amount and be out of the plan. We raised that ceiling to $25,000 and are able to now pay that out and that assists us in terms of what the liability is in the plan on. So I appreciate Pat's help in that and the Council's support of getting those recommendations adopted. And even though that increases our liability and our expense for this year in the long run, that's significantly going to help us. The delta from just the growth in the grand list and the 3% increase in the tax on those non-discretionary items that we just talked about is over $27,000. So as you know, you're not hearing this for the first time as you know that didn't leave us a lot of room to work with. In the original proposals, the CIP increased $115,000. That's been decreased, obviously. We had two new positions proposed, those have both been cut. There was an increase proposed in the CIP Bank with our long-term liability that's been level funded. There was a proposed stabilization fund that we were going to set up. Again, this was on the recommendation of our auditor. That's been cut. There was an increase proposed in the stewardship fund that's been level funded. There was an increase again this year proposed in paving that's been level funded. The DPW fleet has been reduced by $75,000. And the PE vehicle replacement's been cut by one vehicle. Some of the existing funding reductions include taking the designated reserve down by $50,000, eliminating the undesignated reserve that was $21,000, cutting the social services funding by $25,000, and cutting the city center reserve fund by $110,000. That would take the annual contribution from $860,000 to $750,000. The estimated cost increased to taxpayers based on the budget as you have it right now at a 3.44% increase. For an average home of $336,000 would be an annual increase of $57.14 or $4.76 a month. For a condo owner valued at an average of $231,000, there'd be an annual increase of $39.33 or $3.28 a month. Some of the general comments that I'd like to share with you are several changes within line items due to an inadvertent error in library salaries. This was not Jennifer's mistake, but one that was created within the comm schedule. So $14,000 has been added into the library salary line, which is line 418. I forget what page that's on, but it's line 418 in here, handouts. So again, we're adding $14,000 there. And to make up that difference, we cut $10,000 from the undesignated reserve. We had already proposed cutting $11,000 from that. So that eliminates the undesignated reserve. That's line 788. And then additional $4,000 has been cut from property insurance because we've got that exact payment now. And that is line 65. And again, these will offset the increase to the library salaries, which keeps our total at the 3.44% increase. Yes, property insurance. And you said that it was going to go down by 5,000? 4,000. What's the library error again? It was in the comm schedule. One of the part-time positions... Yes, I don't need the particular. I just wanted the dollar figure was at $14,000. So $11 of it or 10 of it is coming from the... 10 from the undesignated reserve and 4 from the property insurance. What line was the library? What line was the library? The library was line 418. What is that undesignated reserve fund that you used for the funding? A variety of different things. It can be used for things like if we overspend the salt budget, we could take it out of there. In the past, we've used some of that because we are going into negotiations and we don't know what is actually going to come out of those. So we had a little bit of a surplus built-in in case we needed it. We have that situation this year. So it doesn't leave us to leave alone. And then just other anticipated things that have come up. We've used it for some of the improvements around City Hall the last few years between physical changes with offices as well as some of the furniture that's been purchased. So just a variety of things that really haven't been aligned with any particular line item within the budget. A little question. I'll share with you. This is one of the toughest budget proposals I think we've put together to many hours of deliberations with departments to put the budget into its present form. And we know there is a shared concern from managers about the future operations of their respective departments. As mentioned in a previous council meeting, last year's budget increase, which was nearly 3% resulted in a $35,000 positive delta for us in the budget onto the balance sheet. Those are accounts receivable that we're still getting. Ron Smith will be presenting the audit to you in February. Ron's not going to be able to make the January meeting. So we'll have the official presentation of the audit in February, but we'll actually have it as a document by the end of this month. So we'll have that to you in electronic form and we'll have it up on the website so that it's available for people to look at. And then Ron will have the hard copies when he comes in February. While in the short term over the next fiscal year, we feel the current bubble of service can be maintained. This is not sustainable moving forward at this pace without a larger growth in the grant market or additional funding. Otherwise, we feel reductions in service or loss of positions are inevitable. And again, I know you're not hearing that for me for the first time, but that's where we're at. We're mindful of the impacts of salaries and benefits as we move into negotiations with our three bargaining units over the next few months. Again, sustainability will be addressed here. We know that's a major item that we have to work out. While we've been able to put money back on the balance sheet in previous years, last year was an indication that there is little room to do that as the budget now exists and we're just over halfway toward the goal recommended by our auditor of $1.7 million on the balance sheet. Reductions in the reserve funds and contingencies allow us for some flexibility, such as winter storm plowing. We have a perfect example of that tonight and kind of the winter we've had today, as well as salting is another example for other unexpected issues that arise. Decreasing or eliminating these sources of funding presents risks and possible need to reduce other funding that has been approved and or needed. There's only so much lack of funding that the CIP can tolerate before it becomes an obsolete tool for long-term planning. We will work to provide assessment on the potential impact of changes in the level of service to assist you in making informed decisions on appropriate funding levels should services need to be cut in succeeding years. Our overall municipal funding remains at 22 cents out of every dollar paid in taxes. Without significant changes in education funding, financial pressures will remain that jeopardize the appropriate level of funding for municipal services. We continue to work on a mean process and we'll report back to you on the results of these efforts. We also continue to seek regionalization and coordination of shared services as a tool to help offset the rising costs of services. There are many items and initiatives within the proposed budget that was submitted to Kevin and I from the various departments that have been removed out of necessity to make the budget work. Many of the items were proposed while discretionary, more important and critical to the operations overall function of the departments which we would have supported had the financial resources been available. We know our department has to understand that as well as the reality that you are all faced with in approving a budget that ultimately requires the support of voters. Certainly a tough balancing act. So with that, I'd like to go into the individual presentations with a focus on what you've asked the department members to come prepared to do and that's to speak to what the proposed budget allows their department to do and what it does not allow their department to do. Before we actually get to that I had asked Kevin to share with us some of the thinking and the expected budget increases and is intact on the tax rate by the school department since they're the majority of the budget so we have a sense of where they think they're going. So at your seats, council members, there is an administration recommendation budget for FY19, this is draft. And Kevin, if you could just highlight what Superintendent Young believes to be the best guess at this point. So we have the back of our minds when we're adding this all up and just really understand the full import on the public. Thank you, Helen. Much has been made in the press and in state government about the governor's projection that there would be 8% plus increase in the statewide property tax rate against that backdrop your colleagues across the street and school district have been working on their budget and at this moment in time as they move toward approval from the school board they're looking at a 0.68% 0.68% increase in the budget that would translate into a tax rate increase of 1.74% Also the school board anticipates asking the voters for approval of a $950,500 bond article for facility stewardship. David attributes the less than expected rise in the school district tax rate to a less than 1% increase in expenditures to a increase in equalized students and the tuition coming in from the sending schools such as the islands and Georgia has been positive factors. So those are the big numbers. There is a sheet there that would probably take John all about to explain but those are the numbers I thought that you would want to have. Do you know what the value of that bond issue is? $950,500 $950,500? $950,000 I'm sorry. $950,000 And it is for? This would be the second time this would be I think the school district has done this in maybe two years. And how long do we know how long that bond is of their force? I do not know that. David did not state how long that would be at. They like to do the bond separately because it doesn't contribute to the general budget so it doesn't get part of the normalized people or the normalized student. I believe you are correct. Right. But it will add in the next year I want to discuss the school budget but if they pass that bond the next fiscal year you will see additional cost. And probably translated into their general fund budget it may be a standalone like we did for the technology bond stood alone and this year we incorporated it into the general fund for the next year. The technology bond will be in this year so they may do the same thing it might stand alone out there and then come into their general fund the next year. I don't know how David can hold that. Were those figures that you showed us was the school figures on the top and the city figures on the bottom? I wasn't right there. What I had asked you to do was to demonstrate what the 3.44% was that I shared with you here was I think what the other one. Tom, you did the calculations of what what their 1.74% increase and our 3.44% increase would mean in terms of actual dollars. Right. And it was roughly well that would be about a 6% increase in our budget to have the tax rate increase the same amount it would take a 6% increase on the city side equal the same amount that's because the school budget is much larger is the kind of development to happen. And what is the approximate final date when they would the school department would hear from the state what their actual numbers are going to be? I mean this is the usually after the budget after the budget is better so it's going to be there so they always ask their budget depending on what the final numbers from the state come in at it's pretty well projected but it's not exact I just thought it would be helpful if we had some idea in terms of their budget yeah definitely that's actually a window right? yeah I mean we need to kind of step forward together to approach the taxpayers but it does some light in too yes and I my cousin surprised at the 1.74% it's almost incredible again it's incredible who factors as David articulated holding down that growth in their expenses and the increased equalized students so they're getting money from the state based upon equalized students and I think you know you got to have credit I think for doing a pretty good marketing campaign with sending sending schools and as Dave Sharp said in this room like two summers ago the tax rate is tied directly to the cost per normalized student right so the less you spend the lower the tax rate that's very good news good thank you very much do we have the equivalent of this for the city and the two put together so like for those two home situations house and condo I can send it to you Tim okay alright so let's thank you get back to our budget and the first presenter will be the library she had a ways to travel so we didn't mind her heading out earlier Penny is here from the library board tonight and Penny please chime in if there's anything that you'd like to add not a lot of changes in the library revenue on the revenue page so maybe we'll focus on the expense she here for Jennifer and she asked that we just remind folks that the school use even though that she eliminated it's basically being transitioned to where the new library is for rent and other costs so that's kind of a wash there the computer operations has a cut of about $2400 and that's because with the move to the new location we incorporated the newer computers in the move so we wouldn't have to do it twice so everything is set up for her there and we took out the two computers she was going to get next year and just did those now while we were doing the whole setup so that's one of the reductions the janitorial services for the new library makes it a wash and again I think the thing that we want to stress there is that our move from the existing library to the model is not one for saying oh this is going to save us a lot of money you're hosted by the reason why we needed to do that it's basically a wash and then the school budget has that money taken out from the library that we would give them the repair and maintenance line number 449 the $9000 figure there there's still some things that we're going to be working on that we'll go into the next fiscal year with the transitional space that I think Jennifer would want to do and probably some of the increase in what some of the utilities might be so we built in a little bit of money just to make sure that those pass with are there any more questions for the library any did you have anything you wanted to add I think Jennifer felt that this budget would basically allow her to do what they've done in the past she has some concerns because of replacing their children's library or has left but the hope is that they'll be able to get somebody new as soon as possible to offer those children's programs against them so the money is in the budget to replace that there will probably be some vacancy savings there will be there's also a payout usually when somebody leaves for time that was on the books especially if you fill a position right away which is our intent so we hope within the next month that that position will be felt I just have a notational Jennifer's mind that being in this line is also partly a place where the utilities expense is being captured now so it's appearing on a different line because it was part of those school expenses part of the budget so that also explains why it's so much different that's the only thing yes alright, thank you thank you you're welcome you're welcome Justin Robinson, Department of Public Works I think I have a few budgets here in the row I'll try to get us back on time if I can in the general fund for highway most of what you're seeing in the plus and minus category column U is simply a reflection of trying to accurately capture past three years of actuals so whether that's vehicle maintenance or fuel we're just trying to trend and not predict for example what salt we might use so when you see something going up or down a thousand dollars that's generally what's happening in those line items that said there are a couple of larger things I think worth discussing Tom had mentioned the reduction the reduction in highway fleet expenses $75,000 that in actuality the reduction applied to my budget that's a reduction upon a reduction there are reductions made by Tom and Kevin before you're seeing things so the $75,000 was an additional reduction it's there you go don't pay attention to plus and minus from last year this is $75,000 less than the manager approved budget based on some of the financial pressures that Tom led us off with and the way we're achieving we went to the finance office with this recommendation because the city needed hundreds of thousands of dollars hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and that could not be achieved by buying less staples and one of the few departments that has purchases of that size and might help cut into that deficit so we are forestalling yet again X years in a row of boy crying wolf here the purchasing of a frontline plow to attempt to compensate for that one of the other trucks we're purchasing this year we're not going to trade the existing vehicle in we're going to defer that trade in for a year when hopefully we can catch this back up next year so we're actually keeping around two older vehicles in hopes that they'll be able to do the work of the one newer one $75,000 that's part of the $75,000 the other part of the $75,000 is you have all seen what our silent piles look like the little yellow guys that could unfortunately for some random reasons those are becoming extremely expensive they used to cost us $120,000 all in now they're about $140,000 we have three front lines $5,000 we always keep kind of our newest oldest one if you will as a backup because these things take a beating when they're bouncing around we think that having a full fleet of these things at that price per unit is really not a sustainable answer we've identified another machine that basically cost about half the price we think it provides 85 to 90% of the value at 50% of the price so we're proposing to do one lead so that's another way in which we were able to achieve the reduction $75,000 for the manager it's a little bit of a finger crossing here because we just purchased from these machines this year to kind of test them out it probably has about 15 or 20 hours on it so nowhere near enough conclusive information for us but again, mindful that the way you hack the way in a $908,000 budget is $50,000 at a time this is one of our recommendations in this budget how much is the front line of that $75,000 the we're saving about 50 on the sidewalk plow and the net of not trading in one truck versus buying another truck was another $25,000 but this really speaks to a larger issue that randomly and coincidentally rose its head today in the city's normal operations of as we were reviewing an application an Act 250 application for a large development in South Burlington I'm not going to pick on that development because it's not their fault we are always asked to have the ability to provide services without creating a new adverse impact on our ability to provide services there and elsewhere Kevin's probably doesn't like hearing this from me anymore but my answer to this is I can't check the yes box I'm not quite comfortable checking the yes box and that's like a compound itself over time going forward as that development and many others over the next 3 to 5 years become city streets that combined with the continual annual deferring of recommended fleet purchases is creating a problem so we have a few options going forward we cannot take over neighborhoods you have the authority to not accept streets but the capital there we can take over this infrastructure and not add additional monies to the department continue to cut fleet and have a demonstratively less level of service or we can find a way to come up with a level of service metric that we're all comfortable with and we can provide ways to perhaps out of achieve that mind you the 5 year future of all the people we currently employ and the equipment we currently own and our HRIP which I don't think we did an update on that in the council's chair but our HRIP has a little caveat on the bottom of if we're going to have we're going to own new units of acts to maintain or any two people one in a plow truck, one in a sidewalk plow and also plow in a sidewalk plow and amortized over a 20 year period with life cycle cost and inflation that's about $225,000 a year which we all know that is relative to a penny on the grand list and that's just maintaining monosal service going forward so our budget message this year is we certainly worked with Tom and Kevin and with Sudori in ways to meet the council directive which is our job but it's also our job to let you know that if this is what we're doing next year or a year after something certainly is going to give and it's going to be on the maintenance side we're just not going to be able to turn the trucks around the town in a manner fast enough to keep people happy so that's kind of our message relative to with the highway fund we are also at a desire as has been addressed to you numerous times so those are kind of the two big highlights within public works on the revenue side we just did a couple of things to match up with actual we have nothing revelatory on the revenue side of this budget in my opinion with regard to road striping and the bike lanes I am on the mind to increase that line issue and our bike and bike committee has put together a list of priorities that add up to $10,000 which is our budget which is the current budget so that also pays for crosswalks and turn arrows and all the other stuff and I certainly had discussion with them and last year we overspent that line item by 25% and still there was a lot that we all know didn't get done so we'd be supportive of additional revenues in that line item it's line 674 so you would recommend higher than $20,000 to have the bike and head priorities with the lanes in addition to the crosswalks just having normal taking no input doing no additional work that's historically even costing us $10,000 it's a lot of paint and it's not just the committee and the individuals who have really complained to me why are there no lines on Thorset Street why are there no lines on Heinsberg Road and so I really I do hear that crying can I ask you just in general what percentage of your budget is personnel salaries and benefits so so just go around the body so we're about $2.4 million probably is about a ton 40% about 40% I mean I'm just I'm doing numbers on the fly here about 35-40% sounds like 33% well there's a lot of other stuff down here bike and that's the benefit on the city wide scale that's about 58% we spend a lot of money on stuff so so when we think about negotiating new contracts when they are negotiated and aren't managed to what resources are available the impact could be significant a little less so in your department than others but it's a big piece of a department which I know that's out of your control but that's just one of the pressures the city has when we let's talk, it's just a little less in other departments bargaining reunions and the impact on the overall budget when it's just lean there's some good news to report we've done a lot of energy efficiency stuff traffic signals and in our facilities that are lowering expenses some of that's reflected in some line items we're doing what we can where we can to lower expenses and some of those other line items are contained directly within public works but we're certainly involved in that work and one of the new projects goes in and we have a new housing project and we have impact fees and what have you is the line stripping of roads anything that is considered within that so that is maintenance impact fees cannot pay for maintenance however and Paul Conner and I were discussing this literally today impact fees can pay for and have pay for equipment we presently do not have a public works impact fee and we've used this in the past for police and fire one of the other possible solutions I didn't want to try to be mindful of time here tonight but it's conceivable there could be a public works impact fee that could help pay for new equipment not people the initial purchase of new equipment and the existing levels of service I mean I look at that the same way that if we have new areas that are drawing on our resources and our resources are limited then how do we get that taken care of and while I'm not trying to make it extremely burdensome for those that want to develop in our area we have a highly desirable area to develop in but we also have limitations as to where our funds are in order to take care of the new services that would be required yeah and I think you heard the people often say well isn't that what the new property happens before, don't they help people you heard how much to growth in a granular sketchy and what that's projected to be that certainly isn't enough to offset the impact of some of those of certain types of development I should say so additional revenue streams or ones we haven't used in the past for the purchasing of equipment would certainly be in order for discussion well I mean it's hard for me to get my head around our grand list goes up by three quarters of a percent but our taxes in order to even maintain services is 3.44 we have some disproportionate need to examine where our funds are coming in so I think everybody has shown an effort I saw a lot of little tweaks here little tweaks there but I have to really say that Justin I think that you who have perhaps gone a little bit too deep into the muscle for my taste and I know it's because you were trying to please us well no you tried to please us but you were trying to the three way comes around the salt we're down to 100,000 whereas last fiscal year we went well above 100,000 dollars in salt which was a warm winter salt prices are lower this year our per unit we're paying 8% less on per unit ton this year we historically use about 1,800 tons of salt so we use that 1,800 tons whatever our contractual prices it's I don't remember the exact number but so that's the number that ends up in the salt budget so it's a little bit of a combination of 1,800 is a reasonable 1,800 maybe 2,000 that's a reasonable average for what we use historically it gets us within the ballpark and then some years it goes up a bunch for whatever reason this year Chittin County salt not other parts of the state but Chittin County salt prices were lower okay so you feel that's not trust me I would not show up I would not even go to Tom with a budget that tried to hit a zero on winter maintenance I'm not going to do it the other one would seem like a fix so there's 1,500 out of this budget and 1,500 combined out of sewer and stormwater that kind of helped pay again public works fund so it's $3,000 total you heard earlier we were trying to move around $14,000 to deal with so in my view with where every $1,000 accounts paying $3,000 for service that we get input for free for a variety of other services I felt it was my duty to try to show that that may not be entirely necessary since we have email phones, letters, facebook, phone calls twitter, walk ins citizen input council input so my way of trying to do a little bit more for the budget was to drop this $3,000 total $15,000 out of this budget $15,000 out of the other two combined so that's why I did it though because there's so many ways and we also pay I don't remember the exact number but the city pays a decent amount to be part of front porch forum which is also another way in which people communicate with us do you read the I read all of them apples on my row I read every front porch forum poster so that's why I did that because getting the cut holes looking at the highway caving line that we cut to even fund it that's another cry I've heard from the public and I also believe it's a safety issue and it's a lot like in a way it's all like a line page the more we can spend on these items the more units we can buy because the price goes down so if we can do a line painting contract of $10,000 or $12,000 I can probably get even a 9 cents a foot for that price if I'm going to do one of a few thousand dollars I'm probably paying 16% you know it's the same thing with paving if we're buying more paving if that line item goes up by more than $25,000 we're actually getting more than that out of it and that increases our buying power so it reduces our per unit cost so things like that if we would reasonably do a contract citywide contract paving line striking which they sort of haven't had the capacity because again it's all we can do within the budget to paint crosswalks and stuff like that but that money would go kind of even further than it might appear on the ledger if you will degrees of level of service for like sidewalk plowing in different areas of the city so for example in core areas where the kids definitely have to walk over close to the schools do those but maybe in the more rural areas maybe not do them right during the storm but wait until after the storm do you do that now or do you try to attack everything equally I know other communities do that other communities don't do sidewalks but they get true for example right now everyone's out we're plowing sidewalks we're plowing streets we're doing the part so we treat sidewalks we've got us to where they are just like we do the roads different people are signed to different machines sometimes they're stealing from one for the other that could be a way of dealing with future level services is to have that type of policy discussion the city decides what level of service to provide where and if duly warned the citizenry then understands that that's a level of service that you pay for so with limited resources if you look at the core city areas where there's a lot of foot traffic and as you go out from there into the rural areas where there's a lot less foot traffic they may be able to tolerate during a big storm instead of like force wipes you get one swipe afterwards I don't know maybe in the rural areas people want snow on the rec pass so they can ski there are lots of different ways to look at that because of the huge cross country community you'd have to ask people how much they mind that but that's a possibility we could have sidewalks everywhere in rec paths everywhere and it would take a lot of money with a lot of snow to plow them off the roads you kind of have to plow because you kind of move traffic on some communities the owner the homeowner is responsible for shoveling the sidewalk in front in some do and some don't I think all good things for a future discussion as these pressures really build well maybe we should have some of those discussions this winter you know not necessarily the impact on this budget but thinking about future budgets I mean if we have Tom and I notified the staff on Tuesday or Wednesday morning to prepare for exactly that we would like I was going to do it on the 16th but we would like to propose a 3 month long process that examines all manner of where revenues are coming from levels of service long term CIP and other longer term projections political factors that drive the acceptance of the population of tax increases things like that we have a very organized and comprehensive discussion over those months and it's going to take a while and really engage the council in that and so the staff already has been notified that we're going to begin that it's a great point Helen and I think the presentation tonight exemplifies why yeah because it's a little hard right now to respond to changes in the budget looking ahead I think they have to have those conversations and have the public understand and as Tom said and as our managers are saying the sustainability issue is front and center here and we don't really often hear the word sustainable attached to government but we need to think in terms of sustainable government Paul Tom and I will be the leads on that we will be involved in that discussion yeah I have a couple more questions okay I saw you have special projects and I don't know I had surgery so maybe my memory's been erased but the 1.75 million dollar project for fiscal year 2018 I'm sorry what one that is my 710 the reduction of that is that is the remaining money in the exit 14 federal earmark that money has in the past paid for the widening of 89 south exit 14 w in front of the Sheridan to two lanes back in the ox it paid for the recent widening of the Sheridan from the Sheridan it was also some seed money for a projected intercept facility in the back of the Sheridan which is now kind of DOA we're using the remainder of that money just through the CIP not here to do adaptive signal traffic signals on Dorset Street and Wilson Road those projects have been considered proximate enough to exit 14 that complies with the language in the original federal earmark bill which was I believe one sentence that said transportation improvements in the exit 14 area and bless it for its vagueness so I thought that we weren't going forward with the adaptive we are there was a shortfall or we didn't get the money that's in the current fiscal year budget and just to be clear though there's also an offsetting revenue so while that goes away the revenue on the other side will be in this year's budget also so it's an FY18 project we're doing now and we hope to have it done in FY18 if not as a standalone kind of special fund that will just carry forward almost like an enterprise fund into 19 traffic signals traffic signals, right that's what I meant so we are going forward with that in the next year okay I would have no money for that at this point so that will be done throughout the city it's specific to what I call Dorset proper from Kennedy Williston and then as much as we can suck on top of it so Dorset and then as much of Williston Road and perhaps even in the Burlington and this is new PLC's logic it's hardware software detection yep does it include new coils in the road coils in the road so today's method, preferred method of detection is no longer the coils in the road because the pavement stinks, the detection stinks so with cameras or radar that are mounted up on the actual signal equipment above the road or solar thermal, camel radar thermal whatever it is any timeline for that we're hoping to have it done this fiscal year so before I have a phone call Monday at 4 that's where you require a contractor to do that installation it will result in probably some of the traffic boxes that I've been paving we're probably going to get new everything new hardware, new guts I won't go into details because I'm all over on time so we need a museum for the old boxes okay Megan has one more question she's got a doubt I'll make her find them on the utility budget and then she doesn't have any more for the rest of the evening so right now just use my budget so the special project for fiscal year $19, $85,000 that is Tom can you help me out on what that one is one of the stewardship is the I think it's still I think it's still additional stewardship slash energy efficiency projects is what we're programming through here could you use any of your paving budget to bike lanes that were kind of waning in the parking lot do you like to build new bike lanes as a capital expense I guess my best answer to that is I could spend the money in any way that you direct Kevin to direct me to spend the money so if we were to there's a minimum amount of money we have to spend I think it's $225,000 we have to spend more which is our state aid revenue we have to spend more than that on actual just paving to be eligible for that state highway only on bike lanes or road lanes which often includes bike lanes the new Wilson road but the state aid a lot of new bike lanes in that paving project okay so no more from this any other questions okay Tim what is the highest prairie paving project in FYI 2018 continuing south on spear I believe right now in 18 we're going as you know we've been incrementally going south on both spear and dorset to lead children now why thank you I know you're is that old for the CPW there's really nothing to speak right and we ask you any more questions the enterprise so enterprise funds we're not subject to kind of the same budgetary scrutiny they're standalone the projects that are contained therein have been discussed with the council before stormwater is going to keep doing stormwater things we're going to eat this year we're going to be doing 8 or 9 projects aggregate value is probably $5 million in sewer our focus as you know is on disconnecting the sewer from the neighborhood just over at high school actually on January 16 we're going to bring you some very good bonding information I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what we're going to put together for a project that already has an incredible ROI it now has a very incredible ROI and that will be coming to you on January 16 okay all of our utility rates the water rate increase is 1.2 something percent stormwater is just a standard 2 sewer again is kind of a standard 3 the only new initiative in water is as we've discussed we want to buy we're going to do an additional booster pump station which will be put in place just in advance of the doors of the street water tank which will allow us to add volume which then adds downward pressure into the system so the SEQ can continue to have what I would consider quality water pressure service for existing and proposed developments so that's the one new initiative in water and the one new initiative the one big initiative is sewer is the project near rice otherwise everything else is going to continue to be really exciting well just the savings the savings from the 2012 upgrade project again we pay less money per year now in sewer then we did before we started spending $1.3 million in bonded annual bonded debt we added that to the budget and our budget is smaller than it was before the upgrade so it's going to be great and we hope to have the same type of impact in the part of the bank which we're starting to give some seed money to it's getting near the end of this useful life cycle as well did you say you're raising the doors of the street tank? no we're we're going to add volume to the doors of the street tank right now the operational we're going to add water just make the water column higher we're going to make the water column higher does that require any special study or authorization or special study which we're doing it requires permits from the state water supply we try to solve this problem by raising the water level countywide because you can't just raise the water level in South Burlington and not raise it in Jericho it's the same water system however by adding adding increased volume adds pressure if you have older vulnerable systems in the more rural parts that type of pressure water hammer if you will didn't work out so well for some of our neighbors so now we have to do a South Burlington only solution which is to add additional volume of our own and we're going to help offset that by introducing a tiered impact fee for developments of the areas above a certain elevation because this is only a problem for properties that exist above a certain elevation for example City Hall not a problem central of course problem hey give me paper I read it I studied it I got questions alright for the stormwater which I realize is an enterprise fund self sustaining but the projected revenues could you explain to me how we go from FY17 actual on line 268 of $6,500 $38,000 fiscal year 18 and 19 and same for the line 270 where we have the actual FY17 figure of $12,043 that jumps to 940,000 and then 250,000 so take them one at a time can I like line 268 please for GIS services so pay for GIS services that's reflective of some new internal and external customers the city's GIS services reside within the stormwater utility so when that utility provides service to other work groups other than stormwater be they sewer general fund the town of Shelburne Shelburne water district we get revenue for that so there's just additional revenues coming our way and as that as our ability to provide service has expanded the demand for the service so the revenues have expanded so that's why you see the growth there is that the new employees here we've had it's been a full time staff position but for the first couple years of it it was really just kind of organizing our house internally if you will making sure our data was really good for stormwater and now we can provide the same type external that's just extra grant writing for the SW grants so stormwater grants this Tom earlier had mentioned passed through money this has passed through money for the umpteen different grants and I think a couple counts of means I know you approved two I mean before that you approved one we have stormwater grants coming left and right this is the line item in which we pass the revenue side of those grants through the budget on the expense side they show up under the really one large dollar figure stormwater projects or whatever the big one is um and I think this was provided to you in your last counts of means budget update by Sudori some of our FY 18 projects because these things take a while to permit so the money just kind of follows it doesn't mean it costs any more or less at the end of the day it's just it's a function of putting together a budget for an enterprise fund that's adherent to a fiscal year principle when it really doesn't matter in the enterprise fund if the money is spent on June 30th or July 1 when we have to account for it when we move those monies around it and there these are big projects these projects are $1 million dollars a lot of money comes with them and when they move around a bit it shows it can show big increases or decreases at the end of the day it's all still the same amount of work it's just when do we think remember we're sitting here tonight projecting what we're going to do 18 months from now in the permitting world for stormwater that's a tricky gamut so we don't often hit the target some projects get delayed some projects get advanced they take two weeks ago they want to give us a free project as part of the they want to give us a free stormwater project as part of the Hadley Road sewer project I'll worry with that on the 16th that's great I guess my bottom line question is is there enough revenues that we can really count on in order to have a storm to aid just maintaining remaining flush we have a we have a rate for stormwater our projected ERU and once we put that together in 2012 we've been able to all of our projected ERU rates which is what a stormwater fee is that we projected in 12 up to now have been dead over so our forecasting which we did back then for 20 years and we update annually has been accurate we anticipate additional need for increase in ERUs in the future as the volume of projects we have adding an employee is but a blip in the stormwater budget if you will relative to how much money that fund spends we've also heard a lot in the news both the Governor and Secretary Julie Moore AR frankly the uncertainty of who's willing to commit how much money for how much time for stormwater so our projections are extremely conservative going forward even though we always get grants we're not counting always getting them in year 789 we probably will which will make the future even better for us in stormwater for budget standpoint just in case stay conservative all right any other questions on the enterprise okay now we go to CWD John did I ask a question on the CWD budget I guess I heard that memory say she requested an extra $10,000 plus did that happen or how does that happen we have to discuss that that's a separate discussion yeah after we hear all the heads that's walking heads that's patience I just think Bob Rick and I'm just thinking that it is a safety concern for both vehicle drivers as well as bicycle riders and commuters and it also helps to slow down traffic on some of these major arterial and collector roads that we have and some haven't been paying in for a number of years so I think it is important that the council allocates some additional funds for that purpose and I think 10,000 plus would do it but 10,000 would be a good start based on what was able to be done in 2017 and most likely will only be done in fiscal 2018 so wanted to get that in yes just take a comment about the snow plow and the sidewalks just to be mindful that the frequency of snow plow for one person more snow on sidewalks so recreational for another person for mobility issues absolutely okay I am Jim and John and I quickly previously during my last deal discussed what we are doing in the water budget relative to the Dorsey Street Booster Station and the rating freeze is like 1.2 percent town of Rutland commission kind of an informal study of the respondents from all the major communities we have the lowest combined water and sewer rates out there very robust systems but thanks to a great canonical manner we are proud of that so a water rate of 1.7 percent also going to have to credit Shelfland Water District because they first add their wholesale increase to it before it even gets to us but they are doing a good job in their fiscal house and have a big number to pass along to us is their bond project done the construction of the new tank I think it is substantially done I believe there is a little touch up landscaping thing for me thank you all right Donna City Clerk first one half an hour late I thought too bad I don't have a lot of questions about that phew they try to raise the rates which factors are can I get more poop bags that's one of the reasons one of my liners is the poop bags the poop bags which is great because I do have to see if I can I like Justin's in place and fire that you're going to hear later the activities of the clerk department are more of a services disposable kind of supplies that we use my budget is really pretty much the same year to year working really hard trying to find ways to keep some of the costs down like for instance if we get a new voter instead of sending out one of the this city seal on it or the logo and we get the largest envelope and paper which can cost about like 80 cents to send out I send out a postcard which is much more cheaper cost effective things so we look for little ways to try to keep some of the costs down so in my budget revenues went down about $600 part of that is the fact that it's a good it's kind of a plus and minus it's because our pets our dog and cat licenses continue to increase and they go 6% last year and it was like 5% the year before they continue to grow and where other municipalities have seen that go down so we're doing something right but because of that we have less late doggies and we've reported we're covering in late so because we're getting them on the front end we're getting a little less of the late fees that we used to accumulate so there's a slight difference with that so that's really about it on revenues one thing I will say is that the clerks are proposing although Governor Scott said no new fees we're looking for a free restructure of the recording fees so every deed and mortgage is stuff that comes in currently the way it sits now is the city actually the recording fees do not cover the cost of what it costs the office to record a transfer of property once you get into the mortgage you've got a 20-page mortgage it does cover that so we're looking at a way to restructure and put more emphasis on the state of the deed when we come in and that's what most of the work is so we capture more up front so we may see the recording he's actually agrees that that does happen you're doing that legislatively and we've actually asked to be put onto the biannual review of fees the clerks fees have never been on that so yeah I don't know what that is we put on that review schedule so then work on that so hopefully the recording fees will increase so excuse me on the revenues our expenses again things don't really change that much except for this year you guys all know you have to work next year so we have the August and the November August election is always one of the more expensive ones in a sense that it costs more to program the tabulators the machines actually are valid but they're more than separate for hours and cost and accuracy that we would have by having people work trying to decipher all those primary ballots so between that and this so we will add the expenses of it that is really about the only increase that you have I mean we have the election and election workers but other than that my budget really is pretty much that when we had the two extra votes for the school the school paging for them we built the school I'm assuming that the school would go to the city budget we would have shared in that cost and we do build them every March for their share of our annual income did you tweak the number at all this year just in case we think last year might have been an anomaly who knows are we just thinking positive that you know well in the election expenses there is a small we have to do a really quick additional quick load or something to add a special storm article came up there is a little bit in there to do that but it's in there for those contingency elections that we don't so that really is kind of my bottom line and it is really it is kind of the bare bones where we are trying to plan to cut and stick money where we can but unfortunately 90% of the work is done and this is is such a totally required so we are following what the state of our life tells us we have to do so how do we any questions thank you thank you good work Holly is going to present for Maggie I'm actually presenting for me at our department Holly from the Recreation and Parks Director so just to kind of give maybe a bird's eye view things that might be different for years we've had a very healthy and somewhat declining recent years summer camp program so our day camp program we've been trying for years to kind of tweak that a little bit enrollment numbers being down we tried licensing the program that was successful for the first year but competing with the schools out healthy thriving summer day camp program we just found that folks were happy to stay with the consistency of caregiver weren't going to be leaving schools out subsidy to come to one of our programs so we've been working with the school district to figure out a way that we can provide some of the elements that we are really proud of building into the camp program such as new services so they can now take over three full sites so this coming summer and in this budget we will no longer be providing a day camp and so that will show in some of the flexibility of the other programs that we provide so traditionally that day camp program would you know support financially some of our other programs so you won't see a lot of growth and that's a reason for that really happy to be able to implement some of the good work that we have done and that will continue to pay forward so our community will continue to benefit through that just not from our department that will now sit with the school district and so some of those costs are now in line items that you might see just another overview programmatically our youth sport programs continue to be pretty healthy and strong we struggle with our adult programs we hear consistently that it takes an innovative space to put together innovative programs to draw innovative instructors and to draw participants so kind of plugging away with what we do have but we won't see a lot of growth there and I think we'll continue to see decline in adult programming until we're able to kind of tackle that issue events have been super successful so we'll take a look at both CityFest and Bikes and Bites you'll see that revenues and expenses will equal out we are hopeful that we have full sponsorship of the series of Bikes and Bites and we won't know that until the end of January so if that significant sponsorship doesn't come through then that means we're going to have to take a look at that and you know definitely pair down our offerings that might be by number that might be by quality of entertainment we definitely have taken a look at tweaking some of the electrical issues in terms of ambiance lighting but there are some definite you know can't change electrical safety components that we need to maintain so if that sponsorship comes through we would see a thriving program of Bikes and Bites how many Bikes and Bites? 6 is that what we have this year? 5.6 including the CityFest there may be some consolidation that we need to look at in terms of CityFest and Bikes and Bites if some of the sponsorship money doesn't come through how we would break apart some of the successes of CityFest and add those elements to some of the Bikes and Bites you know such as fireworks or something we're not at that point yet but this budget definitely assumes that that would happen that there would be an equal sponsorship for the expense so that's just kind of a bird's eye view in terms of the parks Red Rocks is helpful to be open from Memorial Day to Labor Day that's consistent with other parks in Chittenden County Lake Access Parks in Chittenden County so that's an additional expense but also an anticipated revenue so that's kind of a bird's eye view if we look at expenses you'll note that there are some additional line items in addition to the we just go down through here when we look at section 3.830 or 3.830 there's now in the facilities a Portalette and a Vehicle Maintenance Line Item so Portalettes now we're at every park traditionally they have not been in the MMAD at every park so they now are and they're fairly expensive we have a combination of ADA Portalettes and Traditional Portalettes are about $100 a month ADA ones are about $170 so that expense does make sense to take that out of the line item as opposed to pieces of parcels here and there where we could pull from in addition we have a Vehicle Maintenance Line Item so we do now have several vehicles we do have a bus it is old and in need of repair sometimes as well as a truck to pull our trailer and so it just made sense to include that in the light item that was going to be consistent as opposed to again trying to pull pieces here and there in terms of additional light items you can go down to the Section 3855 which is the CityFest and Bikes and Bites there's also a morning show with Fido minimal expense that's met with revenue on the other side and that's you know some small gatherings of different sizes and breeds and dogs and kind of a coffee hour pretty minimal you'll see the Food Playground Program for Odell as a zero that is something that was proposed that was cut so a component of what we try to do is make the needs of folks in the summertime and one of the populations that is struggling in the summertime that we hear both from the school district and from specific guidance counselors is the group at Odell and not being able to get transportation to even the school's day camp and so we have been working you know on a national level with the Food and Nutrition Program and looking at how we can bring that to that community so it had some preliminary talks with some agencies total funding for kind of an eight week three and a half hour nutrition and playground program that we would run on site there is about a 24,000 dollar expense so talking to some agencies whether we could get some grant funding for that some shared expense but coming to the table with something we would think would be about a 9,000 dollar expense from us if we could get co-funding from other folks but that's currently off the table so with this budget it doesn't assume that we would be able to move forward with that and not having a summer day camp program that would have revenues that might be able that we just don't see that as an option coming from our department so that's one thing that the budget doesn't support that would have been the Odell little tiny playground or the Feral Park well I think that we would take a look at whether we could do it at Feral Park they do have a small playground we'd also need to look at indoor space so it had some preliminary conversations with the Cathedral Square development across the street we could partner with them to do something like that certainly our food services over at the school district are happy to support something like that and definitely have the ability to do that and take on those additional meals it's just a financial issue something to work toward I think that the LDRs are more appropriate now for developments that have that type of housing for more park space I mean because that was really at Odell it was a really tiny playground it was like an afterthought and no open space not to criticize too much the developer but I was right there in that process and I was unhappy about it at times yeah we've had a lot of success we've done several pop-ups in that neighborhood and I think we will continue to do those pop-up outreaches which is a great idea but space is limited safety is an issue so you know that kind of berm that we set up a barbecue space is fine when you're attending with your family and your parents are going to be responsible for containing you but when we look at providing an experience that might be 30 kids and what would be a 1 to 10 ratio perhaps 3 or 4 adults that's just not a safe environment we have to be in that contained playground area or potentially a walking bus over to Farrell I guess that was a question I had since the schools out program is taking on the summer camps vacation camps there are some kids who don't go to schools out and who might not feel that familiarity with schools out the enrollees have how is your budget addressing and serving those families so we'll continue to run specialty camps so we still have a thriving program of you know combination of half day and full day specialty camps some of them running in our parks some of them will run out of Wheeler we have very popular red rocks nature parks science camps that are sometimes half day sports camps and those will run out of the middle school campus we do try to partner together and provide that lunch coverage to early drop off and pick up coverage so you could have a full day experience partnering two camps so we'll still do that it will be about 25 to 30 camps that we'll offer but it won't be that day camp experience of being in that one location that we traditionally have offered schools out has now grown to now require three sites so traditionally they have taken the orchard and chamberlain we've housed our camps at central school they're now setting their license for all three elementary schools so the only structure that we'll have to operate out of is going to be the middle school and some things at Wheeler as we can they we traditionally also run a preschool program schools out now has a license to your round to preschool program that's in chamberlain school so they will continue with that so we will no longer run what was traditionally our little tights camp that's no longer the YMCA no it's now through the school but do you think there's a problem getting kids moved down over to orchard that some won't go because they don't have a way to get there that is considered safe by the families or through their schedules we've done a little work with David Young and taking a look at mapping some of the kids that they don't see at schools out and they don't see in the summertime and so transportation is one of the key issues we've talked with the school district about the potential of busing those kids and trying to help organize that to get them to traditional day camp but they're not at the point of being able to do that and so as we kind of work toward that goal this was a proposed kind of band aid fix to that is there any opportunity for the common routes bus to be shared with the city a little more I think that there's probably opportunity for that I know that common routes is actively pursuing having a six week camp session themselves a bit wheeler so I anticipate that they're probably planning on utilizing the bus for that purpose I suppose that that would be a way that when they weren't using it that the city might have or the school might have the opportunity to use it I think I think certainly the school district is exploring that as a potential option again I'm just not sure that they're at a point where they're going to be ready to implement something soon I guess if we ask I think that's the the new component with the idea that it was going to be something that was going to benefit you know and this certainly would benefit the children I think the component that schools out is focusing on for this summer that's new and innovative for them is the implementation of meals program so that's nothing that they've done before and while we were successfully do that with the population of about 75 kids they're working at about 250 kids so that means a pretty significant increase looking at full-time staff as opposed to what was part-time staff and contracts throughout the year so I think that's their big focus for right now just some feedback my daughter is in schools out and does enjoy it and there was the Young Run Brands program that our recreation recreation program put on and she enrolled but there was no general publicity in the school that I saw in the newsletter saying anybody could enroll in this after-school program it was offered through schools out to the parents of children in schools out so that's not the norm so the norm is traditionally we have tried to offer Young Run Brands not having anything to do with schools out just independently in the elementary schools it has never been possible to enroll in school and so for the past three years we haven't even offered it there we get one person and then it was trying to figure out transportation from Chamberlain to Central and it just became a frustration for the family so we have traditionally offered them seasonally I think one in the fall one in the springtime and at Central School we have been really focusing on working with the school district and with schools out to not divide but to try to work together it's an enrichment and so we had come to them with a proposal of saying let's try to offer this see if we can get it up and running using schools out as the marketing tool and so we are now moving to I think with Alan and Lee if there is 12 spots in a program 6 of them will be saved for schools out 6 of them will be open to the public so I think you will see that in the springtime over at Chamberlain but it was just a starter to get it up and running we have also infused their program with kids on the ball with tennis with Jake Agna and some of those things that we were able to connect and enrich our summer camp experience we are now trying to share that with the schools out which the benefits of that are endless it doesn't show up on our bottom line but we are working really well and trying to be good stewards of the connections that we have and continuing to enrich the community I applaud you being nimble so that's the overview I have an additional question are there other questions? my wife asked me to ask this she is good at this CDO has a really great adult ed program and if you are seeing a reduction in the children's programs you said there was a problem with space the type of space that would facilitate those kinds of classes but there is probably room for growth for adult ed and really innovative courses that draw a lot of people in the question is how do you go about formulating that curriculum and do you have somebody that you could call upon to help with that do you have the resources? yeah I think we have a lot of retirees if you didn't know certainly something to take a look at we get everything that comes through from every recreation department and certainly access over at CDO as well we can certainly take a look at that and see if that's a room for potential growth I will say it is extremely difficult with consistency to access our schools and those are the spaces that we have to use we do have lots of programs that are drop in programs as well as the organized self-reliance community chorus that they are consistently bumped out of spaces because there is something new that comes up which is really exciting there's a ton of things bubbling in our community but it does make it difficult to secure space with consistency and so when we can't secure space with consistency we are left with sub-part programming and that's difficult to then continue to promote in the community but I'm hearing that and I think it's definitely something that we can focus on I think the business community would have an interest in helping with this if they have empty spaces that's a good thought that's something that Chill Out Center always offers I know you're in communication with them but it seems to me they're thinking how to use the high school library in the space we've not been in discussions about the high school library we just left there so we actually our public library left there so that's a good thought we haven't played around with the thought of utilizing that library space so those are both really good suggestions I heard there were internal discussions about who gets to use the freedom space at the high school I'm sure there are there's a lot of like mine who gets it I have a high commodity but being creative with space is something that we're experts at so I think we continue to think outside the box thank you we are rounding the bend here for the next publication which will be out beginning of February so we probably should move along thank you very much she's not, I'll pick that one up we're on 38 line 38 yep line 30 okay we'll start with the salaries it's mainly a reflection Corley's been taking out of this new manager budget the HR benefits administration minus any reason for that increase line 38 excuse me 45 talked about a little bit that's the increase in the health insurance 11.78 as I said pretty close to a 12% increase there line 50 which is the pension we've also discussed earlier the reasons for that that number also includes the beamers so that's not just the South Burlington which are newer employees going to the beamers plan if they're non-public safety all public safety employees still going to the South Burlington plan is that by statute it's by contract contract but it's a negotiable thing every contract yes and then line 61 is just the payment to the stick bank so picking it back to the level funding of the 1.5 and I think I also have the IT for Al and that's line starts on 152 he's taking over the IT support for the library now correct he is yes we reminded him this week when he came back to City Hall that he actually has another job he's done a great job getting that that was a huge project and he sees this to amaze me with his ability to take on things like that he's done a phenomenal job the library was glad to have him there both for the hardware and the hardware training that was needed so we have some slight increases in the computer software and hardware and if I was here where still needs to be a higher number than that that allows us to replace about half the number of machines that he'd like to replace in the course of a year I think he said that that replaces about half of what we need to I think we have five machines right now that are over five years of age and we try to replace them every three years we're a little bit behind on that which is his concern and then the software licensing just keeps continuing to go up those contracts which is amazing but necessary so so that's not reflective of any new software I mean additional programs that's just the rising cost Microsoft that is the number that we need there so that didn't get cut from what he had proposed but he had 30 in there for the computer hardware I think those were the two items that he wanted to mention is there computer hardware was the second one the software but did you cut that we have the exact figure in there because we know what the costs are what would the current contracts and what the increases are going to be so it's going to be 25 something that we know so that number stayed in it let's put in it to 26 because we know that's a real number we've had a little bit of delay with the number of machines that's where we took a little bit of it was part of the radio bond issue for the tower did that include some hardware of the service here over at the police station or was that another bond chief you want to address that I believe all that software and hardware specific to the radio components of it but not in terms of desktops or the ipads and such that are needed within the vehicles and within the department themselves am I correct chief maybe what councilor thought of the technology bond that was taken out and voted on yes by the taxpayers wasn't there a component that Al did that had to do with the backup system at the police department yes I'm sorry Tim yes and that's been complete okay yes and we were able to do that thanks I continually worried about malware attacks and the want to cry affected us at where I work yeah we're working pretty closely with the tech group on that and we feel that we're probably better than a lot of these companies how you probably are and that's great I just want to make sure that everybody's comfortable that we have the resource you need because IT is the heartbeat right for everything else here right all the cop cars all the fire trucks city clerk right everything depends on the servers the data the computers right and I don't want to be held ransom fire walls yeah yeah yeah so just make sure that we know that things are good so well I appreciate you said that because I'll tell you I see more spam coming over on SBIRL.com account and I've seen with any other account there's no reflection I'm just saying I've been solicited to deposit my bank account in Nigeria or every day I get three or four solicitations and I was like what filter is not finding these things I want to be your special friend but I need to move two million dollars yeah I think everybody's pretty familiar with that but I could have been a multi multi-gigillionaire by now I answered half of those and I had lots of new friends lots of new friends around the world so I don't know any other questions on the computer no planning and zoning right planning and zoning before I get started I'm just going to give a plug to the big work that I'll be doing and to create the value of the investing in our hardware software our department was able to get a couple of new computers this year and it's incredible what it has helped us to be able to do to for example Kathy Ann's computer channel laptop she's at the night of the meetings she's able to take full notes of everything that's going on follow-ups and so the next morning we are able to launch right away nor we're in a meeting with developers in a little summit room upstairs and they're able to connect directly to the television so we can be talking actively about a project seeing the plans that they have submitted to us right there it adds a lot of efficiency to our work and so I'm sure that's copied throughout the city and so and all submissions now have to be have to have a digital component we've had that for a few years but we've had it at our desktop very important and then be able to talk about it so the planning and zoning budget is substantially similar to the fiscal year 18 one I'm just going to speak about a couple things it allows us to do one added feature that we have and a couple things that we would have ideally loved to be able to do but we understand that there are the budget constraints that are on all of us collectively what it allows us to do is have full staffing of our department that's myself, our city planner development review planner, zoning administrator it allows us to continue to do our training for both ourselves and our volunteers it allows us to continue to have the consulting budget which is an important part of our budget allowing us to do the match on the various planning grants that we have including the municipal planning grant that you had authorized back in the fall which we did get approved for which is great news for underground utility planning the city center and all of the county regional planning commission unified planning work program projects which you authorized us to apply for a couple of nights ago so we have the match on that we also have the ability to fund some local priority projects including this year the planning and developments project for master planning and future projects like that are identified by the planning commission and the city council such as C and Q's like the efforts in the chamber neighborhood shelter mode efforts that kind of thing and it continues to provide us support for our committees we did make a couple of very minor changes in there we realized last year that our math on the planning commission year under by a hair in terms of everybody's there for 12 months that we were under budgeting there was a minor change in there to take care of that I'm excited to show one great new added feature line 271 special projects that is matched by a revenue of the same amount $25,000 that is a portion of the dedicated funds that city council authorized for energy efficiency and sustainability from the income that we're going to be getting off the landfill the majority of that money is going to go into public works budget and is for specific investment in projects that will improve our energy footprint and frankly we'll have an early return on investment that is the investment in the budget as well there's a small portion of this $25,000 which is the planning budget for us to undertake some of the planning efforts that we've talked about over the last few months under sustainability including the not limited to working with our partners such as the Chippin County Red Regional Planning Commission University students and the others to measure and track our success in implementing sustainability efforts and then continuing to strive towards those goals as well as being able to continue to do public outreach such as what the energy committee has been doing with advertising and public outreach and really helping our citizens to continue to achieve the great energy savings that we've had so that's a great, it's an addition but not an additional it's not an additional burden on the taxpayer it has a specific source a couple of things that we were and that comes out of the fund that we created correct that's how you track it exactly a couple of pieces that we were in the initial version of the budget but were removed I think Justin already mentioned that we have been in the concept stages of where exactly we live but a bike head physician shared with a DPW we're certainly aware of the interest in moving more projects from the concept and planning phase to the engineering and construction phase this would have assisted with that but we understand that's not it's in the final budget a second project that we are actively working on and we're going to look for some alternate ways to pursue it is two internal projects one is scanning of all of our documents that we have for DRB files and property files and all that kind of thing so that we can have it in a permanent digital format and related to that transitioning over to digital workflow management and permitting system they're they're not able to be in this budget so we are looking at ways to at least pursue the scanning project in the shorter term using some of these 18 year funds examining alternative funding sources partnering utilities where it makes sense to do that and pursuing the rest of it in a more incremental manner skin older documents all of it back documents so finally cabinets to the thumb drive to an offsite cloud version of the thumb drive well the thumb drives and then pairing that with over time moving towards the digital permitting system is mapping based so that we're able to over time link all of our different efforts so over time the assessor files and the public works files and fire eventually to be able to have that geographically based using our GIS software Isn't there already an open source version of this somewhere in the world I mean haven't the Dutch already done this and it's like some.org website that you can just download for free really good news with it even in the last five years it's gone it was available and designed for very large communities and for a very high expense could be tailored to smaller communities in the last five years it's really moved to a place where it's within the range of communities of our sites so it's still a significant expense but it's not a custom design at all from scratch so we'll make progress what is the price tag for the scanning we are looking at for the planning and zoning this includes both our big maps and all the DRV files and all the zoning permits and everything somewhere in the 40 to 45,000 dollar range either in house or out of house for the permitting software we're looking at a initial and workflow management we're looking at something that would initially be around 60 to do and then an annual of 15 to 20 the way in which that would become more budget friendly to us is to be looking to see how we can partner with others and so often times permitting software goes along with asset management software so public boards and storm water and wastewater have all their physical assets that need to maintain culverts and all that kind of stuff and tracking all that so often times you can get some savings by pairing up so that's some of the ways that we're looking at it as well as looking under the rocks for all the other departments and how we can make sure that that budget line that Tom has talked about on software that we're not paying nine different softwares on overlapping services that we're really doing the most streamlined thing we can do while getting the best services we can do so that's what we spend some time on will those scans be text-searchable for Word documents or Wordish documents not maps we have looked into it it will depend on the age of the documents the quality there's we've gotten a quote from a firm that they can do both ways the added cost of making it text free is really very high so it's probably something we would do but for things like our maps probably will only make sense to make the label text-readable because the maps itself reading 50 foot right of way isn't really a useful but a pretty big printed document of Wordish right so it's the older documents that are on Indian skin are going to be a little so-so with that but it's probably still worthwhile for the minimal added cost can I ask one more question? I want to know who's getting a stipend increase on the planning commission of DRB because you have a $500 increase there what's going on we did not have what did he say? we were under the amount because we've always had somebody leave we had a month where somebody wasn't getting a discussion I just want to make sure no one is getting an increase in their stipend last year for the first time we had 12 months on both boards being 100% full which led us to be actually for this year we don't want to be in that state so I know that it was a facetious question but I'm giving you a straight answer he wants the money we all I wanted to ask about the permitting fees have you been able to track has it led to any positive outcome have there been the fees updates that we did a few years ago it has been can you jump to those avenues there we changed it in 2011 and it really took place in 2012 building and sign permits and it's only in place can you go back in time from 2016 maybe it was a substantial change we're not going to go back we do track it annually there's been a substantial change as of 2012 or 2013 so since the interworking of our spreadsheet here I believe you Bob so it has been a led to a substantial change the numbers are a little variable year to year as you've seen last year was a low year interestingly our actual housing starts are very consistent it just happened to be this year we got the highest single number of dwelling units built in a single month in 15 years but it came after seven months a very few even though we're a large community from Vermont one building like the Cathedral Square building with 39 units that's about 25% of all the dwelling units we usually see built in a year and so depending on whether it happens on June 30th or July 1st it can completely change the fiscal year I did actually just last month take a look at our permitting fees and we're still right in about the center to maybe a little bit higher than the average inch we carry every single community but basically a sample we're right in the center so we're competitive but we have fair prices and receiving fair revenue any other questions to call? alright we'll move on to Trevor Paul or is it just you a little just me I'm great along do you have an audience? I'll give you a very quick rundown not a lot of changes this year to fit within the guidance given talk about I guess what isn't in this budget gave a quick snapshot in that it does reduce our fleet replacement by one car which I'll talk about shortly not an immediate concern but a concern over a period of time this is something that can compound another thing that was way back version one in the HRIP was there was an additional staff person requested for I call them a general a civilian person we have very little side of our agency, side of our budget we have very little administrative support we have one administrative assistant and nobody else that's a generalist in the building so I propose this year we talked about it when the HRIP plan initially rolled out for the FY17 budget and projected it out that at some point there is a need there's a current need but at some point we will continue to request a person that help with miscellaneous functions in the building that are lumped on to in most cases high level police administrators because the 12 folks are busy in the field so it's the folks that are the administrators in the office to get the collateral duties that get the duties calling the plumber and checking for now that we're a now that we have a tenant it does not require a lot but we need some of you to respond to tenant concerns make sure that we get the light bulbs replaced make sure that the need is fixed alright so that is not in there so there was a new position requested that was not there also as we go forward this year there was not any new sworn police officers requested in our long range plan both for succession planning and growth of the city we will continue to see requests for staffing if we continue to see and I understand the fine balance that we try to walk between holding budget study but we see a three to three and a half percent growth capacity really once we get done the non-negotiable growth the growth that we've already agreed to as Tom pointed out whether that be salary step increases insurance increase pension contributions those are things that we can't not put in the budget we've already agreed to that we've got to do it so when those go up and we're held to a growth potential and then it's okay what do we do down here to make it work and so I looked at I know the question came out I had lots of time back there I like going towards the end and I get to hear all the questions I can better prepare but you know 82 percent of our budget is people salaries benefits it's only 18 percent that's stuff so when we get those mandatory increases and we're held to a limit and now I've got to cut somewhere I've got to send Martin there in the budget what do I got do we take away I can remember I can pull the old guy apart but I can remember during the gas crisis and the high prices of fuel being held to 20 miles per shed we would park strategically downtown and we would sit there with the car turned off and hope we didn't get a call because it might utilize our oh yeah we had to do a report if we drove over 20 miles we're not holding steady yet so anyway so to go through what we do have in the budget we have the department holding steady at the staffing that we have you know there is a little bit of a gamble there you know I've always lobbied for and historically no matter what we do it's just the nature of the beast that our overtime line is historically 10 percent of the salary line we're 43,000 under that temperature so we'll cross our fingers you know it's showing at $185,000 overtime line so 295 I've got to get to 295 at line 1004 I'm going to go it's hidden there you go 295 is a different time the one I pointed out is 295 alright I'm happy I've got 10,000 more so I'm just going to get to 295 I'll hold you to that line also as we go you know there's not much else change and I'll leave it open for you to ask questions there is an increase in our vehicle maintenance line of $5,500 we saw last year our vehicle repair that includes everything we do anything to do with cars comes out of that line the traditional repairs changing the oil the tires put on but it also includes if we have a collision and now that we have a higher deductible one collision really puts a huge dent in that line and this year because current FY we were held for one car less now our cars are being turned over a little bit less and we're susceptible to they're older they're getting more repairs and you know we routinely rotate the front line, hard use, heavy use when they're brand new and then after two, sometimes three years we rotate them back to an unmarked lighter used car so that they're not worked quite as hard and hopefully they will last longer and really as we go through you know that's correct and I would I guess I would reserve any additional time for questions that you might have and I appreciate that the competing demands that the council faces I do share some of my fellow department head concerns for future what happens in the future if we continue to be constrained where do we go and you know we'll participate very openly and eagerly with Kevin and Tom next year is 3% what does that mean what do we look like you know there's always flexibility we're not going to risk public safety because the department will look different if we can't grow budgetary and we'll continue to work on that and vision that for the future okay question Megan the first one is is there still an unfilled position oh there's more of them no more we bring someone in Monday morning a new person will join our ranks a new informatics will join us that's the reason I set forth but this budget is includes that those positions are there is no on paper there are no position reductions in this budget now you know whether those are all filled in FI 19 I can only hope but that's subject to the market still vacancies and we all follow the T9 in its story thanks to the other paper I don't see a major increase in the line item however no no because I'm frugal and we're not going to pay ten thousand dollars for a dog and I do have I do have a donation that's not part of general fund that's available for use to obtain a new K9 if need be we're hoping for a series of choices K9 Kaiser was donated a hundred percent rumble was going to cost twelve hundred dollars ultimately because of rumble's challenges we weren't charged so he is nobody nobody paid for rumble rumble is free because of his medical problems so his handler now his personal owner will not have paid for him so we will continue to search for dogs that are what I say reasonably priced so we much rather get a free one if we can't find a free one if we go to a breeder you know it will depend on what we get but that's not going to have a significant impact on this budget I don't need to add new money for that I just thought it was seventeen thousand dollars right for this year or last year that's part of as we get older medical care gets higher and so as Kaiser was at end of service life unfortunately at the end of life he suffered some medical ailments some cat scans and so there was a real spike there at the end that we did not plan for and we could not try to help him to continue service so yeah that was an unusual and now that we get a new dog if we are successful we will find what there won't be with a puppy plus there's bad luck we don't plan any significant medical costs when a dog is young as with all of us when we're young there's very little medical costs we will not and the concerns over time with the cruiser over time is if we don't continue a regular fleet replacement plan this year we're held to and there aren't surplus 100 and we're held to two cars next year we won't see a huge impact we'll see maybe we'll run a front line car an extra year so we'll put an extra 40,000 miles on a car next year so instead of retiring a car from the front line at 60,000 maybe we'll push it to 80 or 85,000 but if the following year we're held and we can only replace two cars eventually we'll see a car on the front line and it will be pushing 100,000 miles so it builds over time when we're not able to pull those cars off the front line the fully marked police cars in 2, 3 particularly 4 or 5 years when I came here we had been held in 06 we had not had a regular fleet replacement plan we had front line cruisers that were 125,000 130,000 miles concerns me because that's not the true miles on a police car when you see 125,000 miles on a police car that's probably half true because a lot of our engine time a lot of our wear and tear on the car is idling on the side of the road idling on a call with our lights on so they really have a lot more use than what shows on the odometer and we don't have our meter zone so over time if we don't continue to replace front line cars we will see the mileage gradually build on these cars because they go another year under 6 months in the high use end and they will cost more to repair or potentially get to a point where they're just not worth repair so we lose a car out of the fleet and now I've got a shift overlap with 8 officers and I've got a 1 officer in the building saying I can't go to a car till the next till the outgoing shift brings the car back so I can go to a call or we end up putting 2 officers which has value in some instances but we run single officer cars so that we can get a better coverage to our community if we're shorted on cars then we put 2 officers in a car and that means we can only go one call at a time and if that call doesn't need 2 officers and there's another call well you're stuck with 2 officers but we finish the call and then we go well I appreciate your telling us about the 18% because that is a very small window to be able to cut from especially when we're looking for some dramatic cuts this year so we appreciate that and while the city wide might be 56% obviously we're seeing that we have different departments that are closer to what the school experiences with that 80% so we understand how hard that is and appreciate that I'm very glad to see that the 4 unfilled positions are still funded within the budget we worked very hard over the last few years to make sure that they were not going to be cut back and I appreciate hearing that as well I'm disappointed that we can't replace the vehicle but I appreciate you being candid with us about what we need to look at going forward because you've sat here before and we've cut the budget for that I know and it's not pleasant to have to sit and do that especially when we know safety is involved specifically what is the upper 40 lease expense the what the upper 40 lease expense that's for the moneys that it costs us for the vet center for cleaning for janitorial products for janitorial services the lease for the vet center is all in so the vet center pays us one price and we provide everything okay does that include like utilities? yes not phone or internet but power heat pooling the reason was less than the year before because it wasn't a full year lease that's the fully burdened landlord cost okay and cost or no I would go back and I know we're short on time but I think it's worth commenting as your police chief to express appreciation both to the management team and to the council because I have been in a position before where an unfilled vacancy is a piece of low hanging fruit and when you're looking at voluntary times it's pretty easy to where Doug would not involve a layoff to say well let's just erase one of those lines and you know we are having a challenge to fill them but I do have to express personal and professional appreciation for the fact that we are leaving those on the books providing us the opportunity to fill those because once they go away it's really our need back and I think as a community looking forward we need those and so I thank you for that whoever can you talk to as it relates to your FTEs yeah so what it does do is that it does provide us a little bit of flexibility within the budget so what you don't see in this budget is you don't see any expense for our mental health resources we are working right now on standing up a community outreach team with other communities where we will have a full time because we are a full time mental health clinician what we will be able to do with those unfunded vacancies is we will be able to take some of the funding that's allocated to those and use that to pay for a mental health clinician which will then relieve some of the pressures on our patrol staff because it will take some calling away so it does provide us by leaving those there it provides us a little bit of flexibility within the budget to do some creative stuff still labor still very much in providing services to the community but just in a little bit different way you know the Vermont state unemployment rate is like 4% but when I talk to some people about they go that's an employment that's an unemployment rate number but there's this whole depth of young people below that number that are a resource that's not being tapped effectively because of whatever cultural changes happened in our country in the last quarter century and I know that VTANG is having trouble recruiting people right and I know that other police departments across the state are having trouble so the question is how do you get young people interested in public safety, national safety jobs to get them on the conveyor belt to get them into that process so that they get a career in that and so I don't know it's a challenge we're reviewing that every day we're looking at different needs to recruit where you know some of it is just it's generational it's the employment market and you know you're preparing to graduate college and you're looking at where do I want to work can you give an interest in criminal justice there's a lot more emphasis on family and family life nothing's bad but when I was a kid coming out of college I wanted to make a money pass I wanted to have a fun career and I didn't care that I worked until the middle of the night and I didn't care that some guy called the chief of police was going to tell me I couldn't work Christmas now what we see is values have changed a little bit and people want to work on Monday through Friday they want to be home at night with their kids they want to have Christmas with their children and when they come work for me I say you don't get that choice so we need to sell it up a little bit and look back to the desire to serve the desire to help to provide service to community I think we also need to do and this community and it's easy to sell this community is that we have a community that is very respectful and appreciative of the police department when we look at some of the national picture there's been some horrible things that justifiably have happened and shine a really bad light on the police and turn communities against the police but for some of these young people when they see what's going on in the news they see police officers being gunned down and their crews are just because they're a police officer that provides a little bit of angst to some of these young people that's not really what I want to do so what we need to do as a community is we need to sell the community image we need to sell our citizenry and say the likelihood of something like that happen in South Burlington is this big the likelihood of somebody wanting to buy you a coffee or stop to say thank you is this big is this a community does that happen does that happen I went to the bagel shop the other day and got lunch and when I got up the clerk said you're set and I said I cannot accept a free lunch from you he said it's not for me I said who's it from he said I can't tell you and I said you have to tell me he said I can't let's just say somebody else in this building okay I like it so yes so counselor if anybody has any ideas we are open I think some of it is what I telegraph out is frankly this communication this evening this communication about how we have an open engaging council we have an open engaging tax payer base and we want to get that message out we want to continue to spread that and it's not us any other questions well thank you very much thank you and as always thank you absolutely fire and ambulance done the branch fire chief quickly before I start I got to put on my tax payer app just a minute because we've heard a lot of doing in bloom about budgets and so forth I've got to tell you as a tax payer in South Brompton my $1,500 a year that I pay and this is not the least been insulted by that I guess probably I'm an insider too because I see the work that my staff not just at the fire station the city staff does on a daily basis the amount of work they're able to turn out just these people service people the city staff I don't think I think we're getting a heck of a bargain but that's just me and I see watching football game over and over again they talk about families cell phone claims and stuff that cost a whole lot more than my $1,500 a year that I'm paying for taxes my $2,400 a year that I'm paying for my cable TV and internet service somehow I don't think my $1,500 is money bad spent but I just want to get that out there because we have a great work staff here in the city of South Brompton and as you might have seen there's a lot of stuff going on in the city and I think we're pretty well served by the game of folks if we have a year so a lot of work I've ever said I think we're getting a heck of a bargain but I think we're getting a heck of a bargain but I think we're getting a heck of a bargain but I think we're getting a heck of a bargain but a lot of work I've ever said there's not a lot of new things in our budget there's probably no new things in our budget for the most part when I was when I spoke to you in 2015 we were averaging about nine responses a day and we're up to 13 responses a day the thing that doesn't get to me about the 13 responses a day that was 13 Multiple calls are things that are bothering us and they're stretching us to our beyond our resources. When we get three and four calls right in the row, shift the other day did nine calls before they ever came back to the fire station. They left for the first call before they ever got back, they did nine calls. One right after another after another after another. I got a call from a teacher at the high school one day when they had a false alarm over there. I was disgusted that they took the fire truck six minutes to get there because we're right across the street. Well guess what? The fire station is right across the street. That doesn't mean that the fire trucks are in it or the guys are in there. There's a lot going on in this city. So I too, like Trevor and Justin, Justin announced the other day the department had meaning that he was finally going to be up to full staff for the first time and I don't know how long. One day I'm going to finally be up to full staff. We have three folks starting on Monday morning, which is very exciting to us, very exciting to the staff that's having to work overtime to fill in those places now. So Tom had asked for me to tell you or for our department has to tell you because of the budget cuts one of the things we're not going to be able to do this year. There's several things and probably the ones that mean the most to me and mean the most to our operation for vaccinations required to get people vaccinations if they need them, but the line item was cut to zero. So if we have a new hire that needs vaccinations or needs their pre-employment physical, we don't have any money to pay for it. It's been cut down to zero. How much was that, Chief? $1,000. This is for people applying for positions that might need vaccinations that they haven't had. Correct. And by older laws we're required to provide those. People that are on the job now. People that will be coming in. So is there a gamble that we won't hire anybody in that 12-month by all means? But if they do, we don't have that. We'll just find it somewhere else probably. The history is that it hasn't happened. So we would obviously be talking the money, but we'd take it out. Another thing, under uniforms last year to soothe the budget impact, we said we would do half of the staff last year with winter jackets and half of the staff this year with winter jackets. Half this year that's going to get done got cut out. Well it's not very cold. No, it's not. It was this year. Our air pack maintenance buddy got cut down. Not a real big deal, but it is. By OSHA rules we're required to do two separate tests every year that add up to roughly $4,000 worth. We're required to do. So we're going to have to do them whether we've got the money to pay for them or not. This is tests for what? Air packs. So we have to have each man fit tested for a mask every year. It has to go on record and it has to be a record kept of it. Each one of the packs has to be tested by a third party to be sure that it's working and working properly. What about the compressor? Compressors in the budget. It is in the budget. As Tom and I discussed, we will get all the preparatory paperwork and bids and everything all done for that. So on July 1st or July 2nd, we will make that a piece of machinery. We promised last year that we'd do what we had to do to keep it going. We went seven weeks without it. Every day we were sending somebody to the air base to get some air bottles filled. We told you we'd persevere and make it through when we did. And interestingly enough to me, I obviously have a good handle on how much stuff costs the equipment that we use to do our jobs every day. Have a great handle on that. I never knew until I went through with our new insurance company, Hip Hop and Barton, who wanted to make sure that they were insuring us like we should. We have $1.4 million worth of loose equipment that we use at the fire station. That doesn't count the fire trucks. But that's all the protective gear for the guys. That's all the breathing apparatus. We have 15,000 feet of paddles. And normally in the budget I carry 1% of that. I carry about 12,500 just to chip away at that 1.4. Because there's stuff that's breaking on an annual basis. When we go to a fire, our hose gets burned through and things like that. And that's down to zero. But I understand if we've got to do it through a year, we've got to do it through a year. When we're talking about having the sustainability conversation, as Justin and Trevor alluded to, it's paying me now or paying me later. What line item is that? What line item is that? It starts out by saying, hoses and nozzles must be hanging out. Hoses and nozzles. How about a new video projector? Is that in here? For the firehouse? No. You're making fun of my video projector. It was a little dim. It looked like it was an old unit. It probably was... So no new... Are there coats under public safety equipment? Or is that the airpacks? I couldn't hear you. The coats are the airpacks. The uniformity, I believe, is the last four digits of 24. 24. And the airpacks? The airpacks made us 31. 531. I think it's 531. I'm talking about 6,000-31. That's copier. 500. Airpacks, I see. 500. They alphabetized that it would be so... I'm kidding. I echo Tom's comments at the beginning when he said that the CIP for what was set up in the tent for needs to be revisited and re-looked at. Because over several years with different departments, things have been set behind. We have a pickup truck that was slated in the original CIP program to be replaced four years ago. We still got it every year. It just keeps giving back murders. And that's fine. But as Trevor alluded to, it just costs that much more. It's already had one new order for it. The old mayor used to say, what's the time to fish or cut bait from the other self? Some of those things... Eventually it will catch up. I'm gladly... Can you answer any questions that you have? And... Questions? I do have one. And it's only because it seems as though the overtime goes over what is the projected amount. And I understand in trying to keep budgets where they are. Is it kind of realistic to think that maybe the 120 or the 138 in comparison to what we've had in the past couple of years would be... Which line are you on? 471? So the one thing as you look at those numbers you need to remember is probably it was because of an opening. So in the permanent salaries it would be less. Yes, we are paying out time at time. I have forgotten that. Versus time, but generally speaking and currently Trevor's business is the same way. When we lose a person, so it's coming out of the overtime funding to fill in for us, but the salary remains the salary out of us the last. And that makes sense. Thank you. Appreciate that. Any other questions? Megan? No? I see some circles. You already asked them. I do. And I probably should have asked it of Trevor as well before. And I had asked Trevor at one time. And I don't think I've ever asked the chief. Does your crew have to administer Narcan at all? Often. Often. Is it still being provided to us by the state? Yes. At this time? At this time, yeah. So they haven't talked about us being charged for this? No. So interestingly enough, Narcan made it into the news two or three years ago. Big deal. It was a really big deal. We've been giving Narcan four years. I always joked. I used to buy it and bury it by the 55 gallon drum. That's not to be a joke, but this is not a new thing. It is new to have somebody give it to us, though. And like many of the drugs that have been in the national news, the other thing about Narcan, once it became really popular, it became the end thing to talk about in the news. Gosh, the price went up. There was an article three years ago. The happy pendulum. Hundred and a quarter of a pop. Is that what it is? A hundred percent. Yeah. We have got, and the state has been very good at not providing it, so. Save lives. Yes, we do give it quite frequently. Our police have just recently been providing it as well. So if this had to be added to our budget, if the state made a determination, they were not going to provide this to the health department or whatever. This would add significantly. Well, when I say significantly, in a line out of... What I hate to say, Pat, is we didn't lower the budget when the state started giving it to us. We've been buying it right along. The price is probably going up in that time since it's become a... Yup. But, yeah, I'd ask you one of the guys, how many times a week do you give our men a couple of times a week, maybe? Average? Is that public information that somebody could ask for is a listing of the dates? We could probably run it before. But does like UBM ask you for information like that, or does the state ask for the information to do services? Well, we're in a state reporting system, so every one of our patient care reports that gets generated by us so they know how many... Exactly. We just got into that program about three or four years ago, the state finally started it. And some of the statistics have been turned out relative to emergency medical services, some of those things have been really eye-opening, to say the least. Cool. So do you also give Narcan to a family member who has a family member addiction? We don't do that. It's a different program. Yeah. Any other questions? That was my quick one. Thank you very much. For all you do, and I'm so glad that you'll be fully staffed on Monday. That's good news. Bundle up on Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's going to be chilly, willy. Or short. I hope you don't have any fires. I hope so. But you know a lot of electric heaters are going to be on. Yeah, and water. Oh. Finance. Thank you very much. Finance. Who's going to do finance for you? I think we'll put it up. If you have any questions on it, it's almost identical from last year. It's a small budget. We usually put it in so that the school has an opportunity to have it in speed. Rather than just two feet next cell. So I have a question in terms of we're in our fourth year with the same auditor, right? We're in the fifth year. So next year with the budget we may go out for another day. So in the contract it was excuse me, we're in the third year. The first year we're in the third contract but Ron's actually done it for us longer than that. The current contract says three years with the option of one or two additional years. So after the town meeting this year you appoint the auditor of accounts and at that point you can say we'd like you to re-bid this or we'd like to extend one additional year or two additional years you'll be presented with that after the election. Is there a fairly small group of is there a fairly small group of any auditing community that you have a choice about? It's a good question Tim. Last time we went out we had two bids to get submitted. We probably had four firms ask us questions about it but two actually submitted and R.H.R. Smith was about half of what the other firm was. Does our auditor do other towns and school auditions? It's almost all that they do. When we go out do we do it as an FPO? We do an RFP and we do an action junction in the school district so that we have the same auditing firm. Oh you use the same program? Yes. We're able to get that. I think Tom brought it up. And they have the same trigger? Yeah. Before you said anything though I interrupted you so is there anything you need Tim? That's pretty straight forward. So any questions? All right. So the final community development through the small topic inconsequential right? Is that why it's the last one? That's the answer. I actually had a specific project within the general fundings. It's within the area of finance. So is. So are the final bids are written? Which is two people is part of the manager's office and we had asked for an additional half time person this year which we did not receive. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit and I also wanted to talk a bit about something that is in your budget which is the transfer to the San Francisco fund. And I am very grateful that Tom had advised me about this project. Extremely grateful and I just wanted to talk about what that means and how that was your conceptions in terms of city center and the district and the South British community that we have with the district and realizing some of the confidence goals. So that's down to the last. So the the and then but generally community development is focused mainly on implementing special projects and so we're essentially salaries but then we do a lot of work in terms of maintenance of the district so tracking all of the expenditures and making sure all the reporting is compliant for for federal grants we have the Market Street grant and we and we started the paperwork on the streetscape grant for Willister Road and so we also do grant applications so the streetscape grant for Willister Road we also put in the grant for the Dorset Street Dorset Street Recreation Passage unfortunately was not funded but we got some good feedback so we can try again next year and and the recent underwriting community grant for City Center so we had asked for additional funding to begin more intensively working on development activities and we've had great success in beginning the South Wellington at City Center Collective working with them and partnering with them but we believe that more resources would enable them or us to work with them more on small business organizing within City Center and also on developing events and then that position could be extended after piloting City Center to the left of the city in terms of creating more excitement and identity and activity around what is one of the largest commercial districts in the county and for a long time we really relied on it being in crossroads and it's great to have all that traffic and to have the businesses that rely on the traffic but as we see retail changing and as there are more commercial districts in the county we think that we can do more to continue to be the important destination that we are and that was scheduled further in the future of the HRRT so we have asked for a few months but we understand that there are obviously many competing priorities when your voice drops it's hard for me to hear just a little out of it so we understand that that was not feasible this year we are also very grateful as I said that we've only dropped down 110,000 we see that the contribution to the capital improvement CIP reserve fund which has enabled us to pursue many projects in the city center that this annual contribution which we have finally reached 860,000 which we see as the minimum gain moving forward on many of the projects not all of the projects but many of the projects that are within the district and we think that the 750,000 will at least enable us to look at that number again next year and possibly build back although as we go through the exercises over the next three months it has been seeing what the priorities of the council and the community are the reserve fund functions as both in order to fund the city share of capital improvement financing projects so there are four projects which require city share so it enables the city to put funds by in order to finance those projects over a 20 or 30 year period depending on need and it also funds to support projects before the development of projects so the soft costs that are needed to get projects up and running and it functions to allow us to get a little bit ahead of the tax increment financing so where we see developers have developments in the pipeline that those are not actually producing revenue from a five year window which we are just about one year into or possibly our whole year into beyond which we can't invest anymore and every time a development occurs we're bringing it's about a four to one ratio between what we get from the city tax versus what we're receiving that we would never otherwise receive so this allows us to look at that pipeline and make strategic project investments that depend on future tip revenues that aren't in place today without borrowing that money we have this reserve established and that sort of buffers us from having to go out and borrow that additional funding to cover the tip district money before it's in place well the $750,000 does that relate to or potentially going to the voters in November for a bond for the library does that give us enough flexibility for for that the reserve covers what would normally be the taxpayers portion of the payment on the debt for a library let's say when Oana did the early projections years ago the ramping up to $860,000 meant that certain projects could get done based upon the projected tipping dropping it $110,000 on what is effectively our third project but our first big project will not have a significant impact on that decision that's good future projects yes did you have other comments or do you have any other questions assistant did you I was going to mention that in future years we are we would like to ask the council to consider funding public public art projects which is something that has not been done in outside of a specific capital project to begin a program of public art that's for the community and city-wide well I'm disappointed we can't afford to have time for the additional person because I think this is an area that's really important and some timelines that are a little nervous about meeting and recognizing how tight of set of employees we have working on this is that the new pedestrian bridge over here $80,000 that's just one of the plans or designs put back the reserve fund for $10,000 picture or something we're going to get that back that was the U.S. I'm sure okay any further comments or questions not for a lot but for our city council budget what's our designated reserve fund what is it designated for it started out as the abatement payment for the airport for the amount that we were losing and it had to pay out once that went away which was just last year we kept that in as a designated reserve fund so that if there's something that we needed that money to go to we had a source that could be taken from do we complete our payments to the airport okay so it's just two years of the budget it was two years of 60 tax and that's done so are we going to deliberate yes are there the next item is possible adoption or discussion so let's discuss this budget I will start I'll take the plunge I never put out the 3% figure I always thought that after many years of 3% or under 3% that at some point it's got to give and I was feeling just from the gut that this year was not reasonable to go for three unisons before we even saw your numbers now that we have the school district coming in at a level that sweeter than I ever could have dreamed I don't think it's time for us to cut more I really don't I think it's time for us to add and I haven't included the city council designated reserve fund or the SIG bank which maybe I should but what I have done here and just listening to the heads of departments is add another $6,000 for the IT hardware add the police department's cruiser for $35,000 I'm sorry the police department's cruiser for $35,000 add the DPW's striping I just put it in for 10 but I'd like to have it more because Justin seemed to indicate that even with 10 we have in our budget that's not enough or just what we need to do and what our pet and bikes committee has recommended as necessary safety can I clarify that point with you Megan? I think as Justin described last night the department has a set of work striping is important but striping as a summer long project or season long project falls farther down and becomes victim even the 10,000 currently we have to do the turn signals and so on are you basing the $10,000 number on a desire to get X amount of miles striped or are you saying to us come back to us with a figure on the bike and pens list striped in the summer of whatever right now that you would do better than I do I'm going off their numbers that may be a different number so I want you to be aware that $10,000 if that were to be added dedicated striping may get you X amount and maybe you were 2X so would you be willing to have us come back with some kind of estimate to get you somewhere down the list that the bike and pet committee created you actually don't have to approve until the 16th I just don't want you to get a number that doesn't get you worried about I'm happy to look at the numbers you approve department of public works at least for the $25,000 for the paving to investigate whether more could be that's not the deliberation thinking about bike lanes I still would like this to pursue the regional idea that I put out there for bike lanes throughout the county I'd like to return the fully the $21,000 reserve fund that's in your column there the fire department now perhaps you can help me there to meet the air packs seem to be important for $2,500 that I mean maybe Chief Brent you'd have a better indication of what is important of those priorities yeah like I said if we're looking at one year again we've got up to $12,500 of firearms and equipment that we've got on there I think and certainly the jackets and the like Tom said I think Tom answered the question properly we have to find some money somewhere to give somebody a vaccination or physical we will so those are two things the winter coats and the air packs alright and then I'd like to restore the TIF reserves winter coats I'm sorry what's the number 4,000 the TIF oh $2,500 the TIF reserve I would really like to keep it where it is I want to restore the $110,000 that brings me to $213,500 more which is now you do the numbers 3.75% give or take that's my little calculator but it doesn't include there was an extra $10,000 under the police department over time in this projected image than what I had in my paperwork so it does not include that extra $10,000 I don't know which figure is correct so the budget that you should have received should have said the final proposed draft it didn't it just they were spreadsheets the 10 spreadsheets the 10 spreadsheets so what you saw here tonight is correct that's the final draft so if that's the that's correct okay good alright that's not an extra $10,000 that's good alright I would like this to come in under 3.85 that's kind of if it's under 3.8 all the better but I think that with the school budget coming under 2% the city has been cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting in order to allow the schools to maintain and we can't do it this year we just can't do it and I don't dispute anything they just say my concern is that with the problem that the school had even passing budgets last year that I think there's some negative connotation of the schools and in addition to that they are going after a bond issue which and we will need bonding going forward I but if it's for the TIF ideally it's something that we could pay that we have to put the public's funds behind it but that we would have it in our reserves and in the incremental taxes that we receive to pay it it would be a wash for the tax payers, the design anyway that is the design and it is true the residents do need to know what it does cost to rule the city and our cutting, cutting, cutting to compromise is not is not in there I'm wondering if the suggestions that are being made if those are the ones that each of the departments but if those are the ones that would be their priority for restoration and should we hear back from them if that is I specifically ask questions about them and that's what led me to write down those numbers but we have three heads here and Tom was representing some of them but he did really stress the hardware that Al was very concerned that we weren't and this is the basic every five years, right? Same with the cruiser right? Same with the jackets and if in a year where we cannot replace these things like years past when the school board had 6% I understand but here 1.74% is the year for us to replace every five years every number of miles every whatever but it is but we are looking at the bonding two that we're going to be looking at and I'm not saying that that raises it up that much if you're looking at 3.7 versus 3.44 you know I'm not you know close to us looking at those items as long as those are the areas that we feel are the most critical to restore I have not included the sick bank and that's a concern of mine too well we have that to worry about we do but we're also looking at we don't know where our contracts are going to come in this year either I I know we can't talk about that openly we don't know but I think that we have an idea of what we would like to see come out of those negotiations they could come in higher than what we're expecting anyway those are just my comments though I do feel the public needs that and interesting when you hear Justin speak or when you hear our staff speak we only really have two options we either raise taxes or raise our grand list we need to concentrate on our grand list as much as we do on raising taxes on our residents as well because we do have a 70 plus percent and I don't know age was though we do have an age of population in our city I'm sure but we do have what a 70 plus percent of households without children and a number of those are limited budgets and while we may look and say you know one extra 50 or 100 dollars a year is not significant to many of them it is I agree but we have to remember the homestead that people who are unlimited budgets that they can get a rebate and and many people are concerned about the school budget I have never heard them complain about the city budget in fact those are people saying how come I don't have striping on the roads how come there are potholes on our roads and I think that we've been sensitive to the taxpayer for many many years and with reason right it's you have to live within a budget we all do and I think that if we're looking at a school budget that was reported here tonight this is not the year to cut for us I think that our public is expecting the maintenance of services and we've heard here tonight that these services but even with us we are still cutting and even with us we are still cutting even with us we are cutting but I think that the paving and the striping and I mean I haven't we want to see how this new cloud works I was hesitant on the cloud but I don't think Justin got into it if he didn't think that this would go he seemed to think let's just see how it goes this year and then in the future years there's some very serious cosmetic things that people see every day striping is one of them and it has a dual function for both cars and pedestrians and bikes and safety but paving obviously has an even more dramatic cosmetic effect and there are places for want in the southeast quadrant for paving namely spear street and I've received several complaints once you get down to south village that north jefferson intersection even for bikers it's awful it's way overdue and he said that that was high on his list so my feeling is that I applaud that the duress that department heads have had to go under to achieve these numbers it's a significant thing to do this and I appreciate it and 3.44 is a hard fought for number in terms of getting down to that and there are sacrifices in here but let me remind you that although the economy is doing well employers are not giving their employees raises so there is not a lot of growth in the hourly rate with the salaries of the people across the city and the city you know is at 3.44 the school this is a draft budget I hope that they'll get close to this I don't know if they have the final numbers out of Montpelier to achieve this but they're on the right track as well in terms of trying to hold down growth in tax rates so there are reasons why but this is an estimate it's a draft but they play conservative just like people they're even more conservative than they were last year whatever the scenario is and we did suffer through two extra budget votes for the school district last year luckily we passed on the first round I think that was a signal that was given by the community for whatever reason about the school budget and at that time that was a different scenario I don't know how much of that we've washed into this election period this year maybe less which is good and if the school budget is as conservative as this is there probably won't be a problem but I don't want to bet any money on it so it's our responsibility to try and keep our part of the budget as tight as possible most definitely but we have kept it quite tight last year it was 3.97 right? was it last year 2.97? we brought it in right under 3 and this is 3.44 and you know there's some reasons why it's 3.44 I'd like to increase from 3.44 I like 3.44 but I'd like to just get the striping not cosmetic but enough paving is done where people recognize that there's progress the tax dollars are going somewhere my question is does the school budget include the dense service for the bond that they're asking for for the school bond well it won't be due until the next budget right alright so the difference for us versus the school is that our stewardship money is part of our budget where theirs is bonded you know and so that but that's a mechanism it puts a little bit of a different spin on it because we're saying that there's this 1.7 or whatever but in reality it is higher than that because of the bond but this is the first time I've done it or one of the few times because I think that often they do do the upkeep of their budget and no the athletic field was a bond right so for the track well I think they do but I think that the school buildings are in their budget so I don't know what it used to be I don't know what the 950k is about I think they're pulling it out in order to get it off the book so it doesn't count towards the cost for two but this is new for well they talked about this last year it's a funding mechanism and it helps them have a more state aid well it's I think and it's how many times are we asking our tax fares to go to the well I mean we need our bonding voted in for November you know what we're looking for and but hopefully it'll be a wash that's why we're pushing out November I know when we're putting it out at that time they're bonding at this time because I think when the average taxpayer walks in they don't see the school and the municipality necessarily different they're looking at what is my overall what am I going to pay that's their bottom line just a note on that we will be going for a bond issue related to the sewer request for Hadley Road but that will be from the Enterprise Fund so I just want to clarify that and the payback on that when is that going to be in March so just for clarity we will have we will have one there well but also almost half of this increase that Megan's proposing is our reserve fund we're running a enterprise that's pretty close to the bottom line and I don't think that's necessarily one-leak and we think one-leak and we think what do we have a $26,000 is that what the delta is that's the difference between those two and I think you said pretty undesignated reserve I wanted right the undesignated and the tip yeah so we're still cutting our the designated reserve and the council budget we're still cutting that but I'd like to see the numbers that I gave to but also with the sick bank because that's something our auditor has made clear to us well I mean but I look at this we mean some minimum amount of additional funds for things like winter coats, airpacks and OIT the vast majority I think improves the bottom line in that sort of fiscal health of the community and our budget we were just really tight I'm very uncomfortable with how little reserve we have I think we all are you know but that is why I'm looking and saying that the raising the taxes is one item increasing our grant list is another and I think we need to have a focus on increasing our grant list as well as increasing the tax burden to the residents as well and I think we need to fund Alana's half-person well I mean that's one of the purposes of that is to get the additional revenues in and we understand that but as I said earlier we can't look at a three quarter percent increase in our grant list and a 3.7 or 8% increase in taxes and really justify that to our residents well that's where we we have to talk about you know the framing that I think was an excellent framing for the discussion tonight what will this budget give to right and what are we giving up right and what would we have to give up if we were to cut further we'd have to give up the striking we'd have to give up the paving we'd have to I mean these are big things we'd have to give up new placement schedules I believe I don't want people hearing we're not going to start plowing until a certain time of the day we're going to shut lights off at a certain time of the day I don't want that either but I want our emphasis also in the city to be on both sides of this to be on the active recruitment of increasing our grant list in ways that are productive for the city and at the same time beneficial to the residents and while we are I don't want to say stuck but while we are in a circumstance this year that the 3.4 is is not sustainable I don't think we can keep going back and saying each year well if we don't have it we're going to have to do this when we really need to be raising the grant list at the same time so if we can commit to the fact that we are open to raising the grant list then I don't have a problem with coming out and telling people we need this just to have these services in and this still needs to come to that but we're investing in city center to increase our grant list but I think we all have to be mindful of the other side of the coin and working with the business community and trying to encourage you know folks and I know you folks do you know a great job but your hands get tied too as far as trying to generate new revenues for the city I just don't want to have anything that we have compromise going forward because of not being able to meet obligations so this is critical to me that you know we look at this and say yes this might be a year that we are doing this I would hope that we would be able to have an offset to this coming year by having an increase in our grant list in some way and I know we have other projects that are out there but they're not going to hit you know in time to affect them but I think we need to let I think we need to let residents know that we are not just interested in raising their taxes but we are interested in doing the offset by having this no no but I mean not just that part Megan but the other part that we're interested in making sure that we have the revenues coming in from other sources to offset future I don't disagree I think as a council and as a budget although the investment in promoting and developing city center isn't a separate section it's sort of filled in that is an incredible and I assume it's relatively large or significant investment of tax dollars to grow the grant list I guess perhaps I'm not sure of how much of that you know is able to be promotionalized so to speak to grow the grant list by just saying that we have the money for that just a cautionary note the grant list growth in city centers is devoted to city centers and one of the things we struggle with and we drag Elana into this discussion is providing services into a new area where we're not deriving money to pay for those services by definition so it's a struggle as well so we have to be mindful as we move forward when we're moving services Doug and we're going to have to provide services there but we're not getting the money to pay for those services for 20 years but we get impact fees police impact fees no? there'll be some police impact fees they'll run out you'll receive impact fees and 25% of the municipal tax right ideally there's less roads for you that's how I dance and we'll have the countervailing additional funds coming in from the local options tax which should increase as well so you'll see those numbers coming so the property taxes on the units don't come that's part of the tip 75% I think my question then would be how are we affected by the mall in their lessening of their value are we going to be affected by that maybe not this year but the following year it's possible Todd has I'm sorry I think that's going to attract anybody else I'm not saying that I think that's a nice piece what does that mean your point is if a reappraisal happens right it could be there was a loan against us on the property of 90 plus million dollars but in actuality Todd had it assessed somewhere in the high 40s and so the value hasn't fluctuated okay so even though they've come down from 92, 70 or whatever we didn't happen 90 Todd had assessed it at a reason what appears to be reasonable market rate and so we didn't suffer from what happened there from the tax hand yeah so whatever it sold aren't they moving into Kmart close together Hannaford I mean I think there's things but I get it but we have so little control you can encourage and you can provide support and zoning and all those kinds of things that ease the way for the additional development but you can't hold a gun to their head and you're going to develop to learn more properties so I think we have to grow the grand list but I don't think that's just a city responsibility you can enhance it you can encourage it you can do things and make it more attractive and I think we do some of those things but we do more probably I don't know what human is going to do more our congress has just given a huge tax break to all of these businesses that are going to reinvest that is their role in our society isn't that maybe I don't see how if Hannaford closes one and opens another that we have benefited well I'm assuming that the Hannaford will unless they would you reassess that will absolutely you'll have to reassess the new Hannaford's property right the old Hannaford's property is still on the books at the same price you'll probably benefit from that so yes as they build that out there's an additional 30,000 square feet of commercial space just wait until Joe Arkin rebuilds the corner of Fayette and Sheldon Room and if Pero goes ahead and builds his apartment building back on the end the road that's next to that that goes down to the lake what is the name of that is something in I don't know what you mean anyway the question is Madam Chair what is the process run right now and what's the term we are discussing this budget this budget and there are proposals that counselor to add back a total of I think it's $213,500 Tom has cranked that $213,500 so you can see the where is it so the budget so that oh it's over 5% okay well I'm that's why I'm not a math professor so you jumped to 5 from 344 with that 344 to 5 yeah I can't support that no I can't hear that would you like us to having listened to what is a really good debate would you like us to come back with some graduated options for you but not too many I think we've heard some priorities here but I would like Tom to be here to vote on it as well well you're not gonna be here I will call in I will be here by phone what date? is it the 16th? 16th you'll have to chair but I will be part of the conversation so I will vote on it good and presumably Tom will be here because I agree with you it would be important so if you're comfortable coming back with some of this I guess personally you know I'm more concerned about increasing our undesignated reserve and the TIF reserve to me that's a stewardship or physical responsibility that I think the budget doesn't reflect well enough on how important having those numbers included I think you can buy into all the other stuff too as well but I would be happy to see what just putting the 21,000 and the 110 back in what that looks like and then you can add some other things is that right? yeah we'll get to work on that and we'll try to get some we'll get something out to you before the 16th so you have time to mull it over okay are there any other thoughts people have? I only had a question if we did do the 2,135 what was that final percent? 5.01 yeah that makes me pause I thought 3.77 you know and just how pathetic is that because it's still still a budget that cuts a lot of things that are important to the public thank you health care yeah I mean it's just kind of nuts 12% that we have so many we'll start when we get back to you letting you know whatever it was 5.01 means to an average home an average condominium and we'll have those for the other scenarios that that helps okay but thank you for leaving the charge I think those were important I'm still looking for money chains yes well aren't we all is there any other business or any other comments, discussions no okay so I would entertain a motion to adjourn all in favor thank you can we go home drive carefully some terrible get some rest thank you so yeah so thank you guys stop do you know do you have an extra one there okay that's perfect so some of the check marks are still there yeah no that's okay yeah thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you