 Really all you want to focus on is like, okay What's the simplest version of this to keep them from saying no from wanting them to go talk to their wife or their partner or Schedule another meeting or let the committee decide or ask for a proposal like whatever that next step is They most likely will say no to most things they see your job should be like can I get them to stay interested long enough to get more Well, hello, Brian, it's good to have you with us today. I am excited I know Johnny and I really enjoyed your book three-minute rule and we found that in this month's theme leadership Pitching your ideas is such an important skill set. Yeah, and I know a lot of us when we think about pitching We get very nervous. Yeah And I think the idea that the word pitching sort of invokes the idea that you're like your sales guy or something It's like any time you try to influence anybody to do anything Anytime you want to convince someone of your way of thinking like that's a pitch Effectively and that's you're trying to convey information for the for a betterment of your process And that's you do that every day trying to convince your wife or your girlfriend where to go to dinner and trying to do anything with Your brother-in-law or family like that's all pitching and presenting it all sort of wraps up in the same thing and a lot of us when we think about pitching we think about PowerPoints and data and all this information and what we love about the book We're gonna dive into it is how simplifying it getting it concise and getting that information shareable Yeah, really the name of the game. Yeah, and it's like it's it's even less about the idea of making it short It's more about showcasing the idea that you can simplify the information and in today's world where everybody's trying to shout louder And say more and get bigger It's like somebody who can simplify their information and let it stand on their own like it's that's loud Like people are drawn to that that that's where then that's the new sexy simple as the new sexy I say, you know like clarity is compelling. You want people to be drawn to you? You don't have to say very much Well, it's also in our nature to expand everything and bring all this data points in it And I know that even in going through this and reading it I had to remind myself several times that that I've Know to cut things down, but it's just and I think it's just natural in us too to just cram as much. Oh, yeah Also For somebody who's who's done some editing whether it be for audio or for video There's so many pieces that you're able to cut out and still get the same effect across I mean have you ever watched the director's cut of a movie and thought oh, wow, thank goodness those extra scenes were in there right like There's a reason because you get partial to your information you get precious and then you can't Understand the process of somebody new taking in the information beat-by-beat and piece-by-piece And I I struggled with this in my own book the guy who wrote the book on this like my intro was supposed to be four pages long Three minutes to read and my first pass at it was nine and a half pages long And it was because I just written the book and I felt so excited and when I wrote the intro was so clever And I wordsmithed so beautifully and I was like, you know what maybe maybe my intro is the one thing in my entire history That could be longer than three minutes And it's like no and I literally had to go back to the very beginning and start my exercises Do my post-it notes to get that intro down to the proper three minutes It's just it's not easy when you know your information so well and you kind of fall in love with it Yeah, you're too close to the problem. Yeah, and of course we talk about this all the time Social media is shortening our attention space. So probably the next version of the book is gonna be 90 seconds Everybody's already in the two-minute rule now. So they've already got it right now And if it's not already on blinkers, it's getting reduced to a 15 minute bite as well as that I mean just to let our audience know how effective your pitches are and doing research for the show I had noticed that over the last few months you have carpet bombs you do with so many podcasts with the book only to Vendicate and show your skills in a great pitch because you were able to get it out there and you're on the show Yeah, and this is the pit Well in this it's like That's part of the point as well as like that was easier for me because I knew the audience Yeah, how many times you guys get pitched stuff for people to come on the show and it's like every day six pages of You know details and reasons you're like, oh my god Like what are you talking about whereas when I worked with my policies like well, let's just get it down to a very simple Here's a video if you want to be here. Here's the email. It's like it was so simple and clean But I think people were like whoa like maybe this guy's got something to offer if he's not trying to sell us on him Like maybe there's something there. So and that is Really where the world is today and I have this sort of it I know I do this thing on stage where I talk about how Niagara Falls Froze over at the turn of the century and there was 5,000 Residents and in Niagara at the time and they were woken out of their sleep at three in the morning because the fall stopped running and the noise of the rushing water and the Torrent of rapids going over there had created such noise that they became used to it. They just tuned it out, right? But when it stopped it was the loudest sound they had heard in years And what you'll find out there in the world today is that the Marketing and the media and the social media and the promotion and the clickbait is a raging rapid of information that people have just tuned out and When you find a way to say things in the simplest way that Clearly you're not overselling or overstating people are just jarred. They're just like whoa like You must have something going on because you're not like Promising me ridiculous things to try to hook me and try to capture my attention You're just giving me the information the information must be good and it allows The person receiving the pitch to think for themselves. Yeah, which They're gonna do anyways like the world is not like it used to you know It's like if I was trying to sell you this mug before and I would tell you it was like shatter resistant to 9,000 degrees and 4,000 psi of pressure you had to decide if you believed me right because what are you gonna do? You know down to the library and grab the encyclopedia and do some research tests on it Like no I had to believe you now it's like I go and Google in two seconds It'd be like a psi thing of a mug and you'd be like yeah This mug is not cable doing that and there's four of them that are cheaper So it just makes so much sense now to let your audience make their decisions No one's gonna let you sell them. No one is gonna let you sell them anything. No one's gonna let you sell. That's it No one's buying anything if you're trying to sell it to them and in an industry like Hollywood Yeah, it feels like they're now making TV shows about everything. Yes, and The pitching is just anyone can walk in now with reality television before it was a select few you were in the In the guard gate with the moat right you were in the castle You got to do it and we get pitched constantly to go on reality TV and do all these shows Cutting through the noise in Hollywood and staying relevant is a huge challenge very very difficult and Obviously a lot of what you see now is like one great idea and then seven other spin-offs of those ideas Yes, I've done that myself Exactly so how was your Hollywood journey and how much did reality television change things for you? You know what Hollywood taught me was That the idea that you could like personality your way through and and hey Yeah, let's do lunch like good seeing you like the image of that you realize really quickly that that's worth Nothing like the network president will have heard you know a thousand pitches a year and There was a great story when I was in CBS about the pitch and out of the room walked Simon Cowell and I was like oh Damn it I have to follow Simon Cowell into a pitch meeting this sucks And as we were talking he kind of looked over my shoulder and was like smiling and I turned around and there's Mark Burnett I just walked in and I realized like oh my god. I'm like Mark Burnett's gonna be coming in after me I'm wedged between Simon Cowell and Mark Burnett right and I'm like oh my god and I got this sort of wave of panic of What am I gonna say like how am I gonna be interesting or dynamic like what sort of snappy snap stories? They're gonna impress these people like none I'm gonna look like a fool and so I remember thinking like I gotta get out of this room Like I gotta get in here and get out of here as fast as I can and I just walked in and I was just like okay Here's the idea. Here's why I think it works. Here's why I think it works for CBS And here's how we're gonna produce it and that was it it was like a nine minute meeting and I was out They bought the show and I remember thinking like oh that went over really well like I like that energy I got to do that some more and so I started developing that system where I would just Really focus on the idea pitch the idea with passion and like let that sit on its own and then the next thing you know I'm getting this reputation my agents call me like yeah, people you're the best pitcher in town I'm like I'm not doing a lot like there's no magic tricks. No smoke and mirrors like I don't have any lines I don't have any closing ideas. I don't have any special elevator pet techniques It's just like I'm just really good at explaining what an idea is so that you understand what the idea is You probably aren't gonna buy it because that's what TV is like everybody says no But at least they understood the idea and that I found so much more rewarding than when I started teaching that to other Industries and other people and CEOs and stuff that I realized like that's all they're looking for They just want people to understand their idea the same way they do Well to go along with that the more data the more facts you're putting in the more information you're filling this up I think that Also takes away from your ability to be passionate about the project because you're trying to get all these data points across Yeah, and that's a big mistake I see people make is there's two sort of forms of information There's the information the value and then there's the engagement and you can only engage with somebody Meaningfully after you've made a decision based on their information. First you got to conceptualize the idea Okay, what is it and how does it work? Then you got to contextualize the idea is like, okay How does that work for me? Is it real? Does this actually work? And then you got to actualize it meaning like, okay, I actually want to find out more I want to get a little bit deeper. I need to talk to my wife I got to get bring a board meeting like whatever it is that that next stage is But like you can't have these in-depth engaged conversations with someone until they get those three sort of Value pieces in so they understand the basics of it now They want to get nuanced and that's why you can use a three-minute rule Make a great pitch and then still have an hour meeting. That's fine But the first three minutes is what counts because they're already making their decision and sometimes as you guys I mean listen, you're shaking your head You know it somebody's won't come to pitch you something and you've already decided in the first 15 seconds If it's a yes or no Absolutely, and that's like that's because we focus so intensely now and so efficiently with our short attention spans It's like if I give you my attention, I want valuable information right now not giving it to me Bang, I'm out and I'll make my decision like I don't want to deal with this. So Really the three-minute rule is like, can you extend someone's decision-making process before that yes or no to maybe three minutes? If you do it really well, it's like you got to do it Well, you got to tell a great story you got to lead people and if you do it right you can you could get three minutes I mean we're and to go along with that I mean even the advertisements on YouTube that you have to grab attention in five seconds Yeah, that's how many times have you clicked like you won't even wait to five seconds You know because they're trying to sell you something whereas I always joke on on stage I'll have the picture of the Titanic and it's like James Cameron put you in a seat for three hours To watch a movie about a boat that you know We knew the ending okay, and that's because when you're telling a story when you're leading your in your information when you're Leading your you're informing and leading your audience, right? You're building to this conclusion and advertising has always done the state and prove I'm gonna state something really awesome and then I'll prove to you how I'm gonna give it to you And that was fine if we had time machines we could go back to the 60s and 70s that might still work But today it's like you make any kind of claim or promise the first thing people think I was like This is bullshit right away. It's like it's it's in our nature now And I I can't even talk about clickbait because nobody even falls for clickbait anymore He said this whole thing in my in my keynote speech about clickbait I had to change the whole thing because no one falls for it the way they used to Well to go along with that. I mean even if you hear a claim your automatic response is to Google it and It's right there you don't have much work to do No, and it's like so making these big proclamations the way advertising is done just has Negative effects now and it says a lot about you and it and it this is why you're pitching Why you're trying to explain your value information your audience is poking holes in it and judging you and wondering if that's even true And like it colors everything and it's just not needed anymore Now we're not here to bash short attention spans No, and there are some good adaptive qualities around these short attention spans that you speak to in the book Could you talk a little bit about that? Well? I think what happens is is that like I said like we actually aren't mindless zombies with these like distracted easily It's actually we just want to do it efficiently if I if I give you attention I want my information that I want I want what I want. I want to be entertained. I want to be informed I want to know what it is I came for and that actually provides some tremendous opportunities because Now it's not about your personality. It's not about the tie you wear It's not about your neuro linguistic programming and I actually have better time with clients that are introverted the extroverts like me Well personnel like a big personality are pain in the ass because They want to play that they want to play that game But it's even more than that they they'll use that as a crutch They'll use that as a defense or as a shortcut if they don't have the information right It's like what I used to do if I couldn't quite get a pitch right with a TV show and I would it'd be more like Oh, it's in the casting. Oh, we'll figure out the casting or I'd do a challenge base show And I really couldn't come up with a great challenge to really illustrate it I'd still go pitch it anyways and just because like yeah we'll get challenge producers to figure it out right and Because I have a big sort of Personality I can I used to try to power through that and so I'll meet I'll work with CEO Is it a big personality and they'll try to power through and it's like no back up Like the reason why you have to put on a show is because you don't have the goods It's like and you think your show actually wins you something It doesn't the goods are really what you want to talk value somebody has the goods I think biotech scientists who literally could put you to sleep if You let them talk to you for more than 10 minutes But when they put out their information in in this format, it's like whoa It sounds so great because they're they're not trying to do anything else Just give you the goods and that's what our society wants and it's a huge opportunity And how did the three-minute rule come across for you like how did this come about you know, I just I Was I got asked to work with us oil and gas company and the it was an investment bank guy It's exciting Yeah, and he said hey can you help my clients do what you do and I was like no I can't help anybody sell reality TV shows. He's like no I want you to help my clients pitch their ideas about putting people to sleep without ruining it And so I went down the floor and met with his client. It was the worst thing I'd ever seen I can't believe this poor guy was in front of these sort of like 18 to 20 of these institutional investors and family offices and and he was trying to explain why his oil and gas company is some You'd want to invest in or buy his stock and it was a disaster and it was like Awful and embarrassing and painful and and so when I worked with him to be like Hey, you know, you might want to reorder your information and change this and I just looked at it and broke it down like I would a TV show and He left me this voicemail and he was emotional his voice was cracking and he was just like you changed my life. I used to be So miserable having to go on the road now. I'm excited to meet people the stocks up My wife thinks he put something in my drink I'll I'll never forget what you've done for me And I was just like what the hell like no network president has ever said anything like that not even close And I always make the joke like I'm sort. I'm really close to being a caveman So my ego is just like whoa, hmm Brent like that We want more people to say nice things and so I found like if I worked with people and other companies They would be like so appreciative and it would I could see I could see it changing right in front of them And if you you know if you make an investment bank or some money like you've got a lot of friends Like they had more than enough clients from that point on and I just realized like oh man This is what I want to do. I just want to there's something freeing I can see the frustration in people's face when they love their idea and they know what they're doing And they have a great product business or service, but they just can't make other people Understand it and it's just like it's it's been really cool for me. They get in their own way Oh my god, do they get their own way and what I love about the post-it notes and the idea of reducing it down Distilling it down to something that people can actually share with other people right that's the key to all of this It's like if you're just gonna fill it with jargon and only a small select group of scientists can even follow along Yeah, well those scientists are gonna go share it with their neighbor share it with the investor and find you that opportunity That's right So the game of telephone is is also important when we're pitching our ideas Yeah, and it forces you right like when when I do the bullet point Exercises and I'll do it in my workshops or whatever But it's like it forces you to just use simple bullet points points and a couple of phrases and You give somebody those they don't know who you are They don't know what your business is and they pitch it back to you like pretty close You're like what the hell and even in the book like I do where I take one of my clients and it's a plumbing company It's like here's this 30 bullet points Like I bet you could tell me what his company does and why it's valuable and you can or I or I give people a like 20 bullet points from a TV show you have no idea what the show is and then you you're pitching it back And it's like you could have said that in the network and that would tell them exactly all you need And it's very revealing when you see how much information is just contained in those bullet points Because the story you want to tell from a to z does not need every letter in the alphabet Well, that was the story of extreme makeover. That was compelling was here You are in the room all these ideas are swirling everyone's yelling at each other and you had this eureka moment You're like, you know what I just give me five minutes. That's right. Just give me five minutes in the world of pitching I'm sure that's like what are you talking about? Yeah, and it was like I'm driving up there right now Like you just gotta just let me in the office and I and I I remember pulling the bullet points off the board being like These are the only ones I need this is it. This is the whole show. It's it's we're gonna follow them for a year They're bigger bigger than the biggest loser contestants It's the biggest transformation like I didn't need to go into all the nuances and sell it And that was the first time I really noticed that piece come to life Which is like oh if I simplify this like I could actually Convey the value more effectively and there's an implicit trust that one the listeners You're gonna follow along and to that the team behind them can produce this thing Yeah, like you don't need to spell it out like these are the scales we're gonna use and this is the personal trainer We're gonna use and here's how I'm gonna fly them They can figure all that out by the way We had to have those conversations But that was later like when they were actually into the show and like wanted it like they they bought into the concept They knew how we were gonna do it They figured how it was gonna work for ABC and then it's like okay now Let's talk about how we produce this and like that engagement stuff comes later like that's fine Good, but you just got to get it in the first three minutes a Bunch of brains in a room configure those things out easily once they're all on board. Yes. Yeah, and that's People will then engage with you from a place of desire They'll want to work out. They'll want your conclusion It's the same way when I talk about if you watch a TV show like a CSI or something like you know How it's gonna end it ends the same every single week But you want it to end that way because you've gone through the journey the information has led you and now their conclusion is your conclusion That's what you want You don't want the bad guy to win because that's not the way the story is told and you can do that with your business or product or service Whatever it's like you can lead people To that moment and I always say like never start with the hook of your story Bar rescue is a perfect example where it's like I didn't walk into the room and say hey John Taffer is the Gordon Ramsay of bars and restaurants It's like people would have been like he is all right. Well, let's hear him. Let's talk about it Like it would have been you know, whereas I went through was like here's the show. Here's the way we're gonna produce it You know, here's what John has done. Here's his history. Here's a little tape on him And so the network president literally said in the room. Oh So he's like our Gordon Ramsay for bars and nightclubs. I love that. You're like, that's right and let me ask you this I when I heard that my first thought was If you present it in that manner, they have a picture of How they view Gordon Ramsay, right? So if John is anything other than that and it is away. It doesn't work for that. That's right. No, well, he's not right But if you let them put it together, it's it becomes They they're looking for that conclusion as well Like they're following your information looking for the ending and so you can do is lead him to the ending You want that conclusion then you're all in the same page Well, you mentioned earlier the state then prove model right and you break that down for our audience who's not familiar with Yeah, so why it doesn't work any longer. Yeah, so think about it like an elevator pitch Right like what do we used to think about an elevator pitch or how we've been taught is I see an elevator And it's like I lean in and go I have an investment that can make you ten times your money by the end of the year What do you think and the guy goes and leans in and goes ooh Tell me more right and it's like is that the way that goes now like new right somebody leans in and says something like that You're like oh god leaning out going like this guy's full of crap now He might even have that but the point is is like now that he's stated it And now he's gonna try to prove it to you in today's world in the hyper sense of Consumer and the hyper sensitive audience. They're met with skepticism and disbelief You can't get away from that the years of bombardment of total crap marketing and over the top has ruined it for us So there is no more of that so by stating and proving You end up telling your audience what's gonna happen like I've got a big claim now I'm gonna try to prove it to you they already think it's not true not a very good place to start and that's why I teach Informing and leading let the information start and then lead them to that statement that grand statement because they might get to the Point where they go was like oh wow I could probably make like ten times my money Maybe even by the end of the year and you're like yeah, that's right That's basically what I was trying to get you to understand so and that's why Advertising and that Madison Avenue and those guys have had so much trouble because they're slower to come around because in their mind the 30 seconds it's always been like I gotta grab you with something big and then I try to tell you but now It's like well 30 seconds is a bloody eternity on if you're watching an ad or a YouTube video commercial There's lots of time to get your information out What's interesting about that and even in for the psychological work that we're doing in our programs If there is a cognitive process that's flawed say that there's our cognitive distortion It's holding them to have a belief about themselves that it's just wrong Yeah, you can't point that out directly because they start to rationalize why you're wrong Exactly whereas we start asking them questions about the why they think that way right always get to the conclusion that oh wait What I'm saying is wrong right and then they can start unweaving and untangling their own cognitive distortion Yes, and that's why I say like you guys might not think about what you do as a pitch to clients But it's like it kind of is because you have you kind of have the solution for them Mm-hmm, and if you come out and be like here's your solution and then they go Oh, I don't like that solution and then you're trying to prove it to them It's like they're resisted, but if you walk them through you'll get there And it's like I wrote a wrote a Forbes article about how politicians should be taking lessons from entrepreneurs right now because And I work presidential client Candidate and I was just like oh wow this is really hard to get you to understand like Everybody's heard this stuff before you're not winning any points And if you watch the impeachment hearing it's like man if either one if either side hired me like that would be the winning side Because what people want right now is for someone to get up there and be just like just lay out the simple facts I don't need your mm-hmm all this like it's just Amazing right and it's like if just one person got up there and just got to the damn point and just said simply like simply It would be like it would be the loudest thing you'd heard it would be the one thing that everybody remembered Well, we're all kind of hoping that the media will do that. No, it's not what they do, right? Bites and they like the conflict. Yes, but they don't those are people that watch conflict causes ratings Conflict will get you to write political donations. Oh, we nothing else. We are well aware of that A lot of the pitches they try to drag us into our like, hey, let's get some conflict We're like, that's not what we do. We transform people. We don't want conflict Yeah, but I think the other key point in all this that is hard for people to wrap their head around is just the Simplification of it. Mm-hmm. And it's even when we try to teach social skills. It's like, oh, but that sounds so simple It's like but you're not doing it, right? Yes, this pitch sounds simple, but you're not doing it Because you're over complicating it the simplicity requires Like a complexity on its own I always joke like it's taken me 20 years to learn how to say things in three minutes But the simplicity Convays a level of confidence exactly and it goes both ways to get simplified You need to have the confidence in your information and if you are simplified in your information It conveys that confidence and I say like if I was trying to cater your wedding and I had Gordon Ramsay to be the chef How many words would I need to convince you of that right for I have Gordon Ramsay? How would I walk in that room? How would our meeting go would my chest be like sunken and slow like or would I big smile my face? And you know like I'd have a level of confidence because all I need to say is hey I got Gordon Ramsay, right and it means I'm not using a lot of words I'm not trying to sell you on it now if you look at a different way Let's say it was my brother-in-law who was an ex-convict who just got out of prison Didn't really cook very much, but really needed a job How many words would I need to sell you on that right and how is my confidence going to be different? And I'm gonna be trying to sell you and you as the audience are going to pick up on that You're gonna pick up on my need and my desperation You're gonna pick up on my body language You're gonna pick up on the words I use because I'm using a lot trying to sell you and so what I try to get people understand Is that whatever you're trying to convey to somebody else has value somewhere on the scale between Gordon Ramsay and my brother-in-law? Ex-convict and the more words you use will show your audience where you fit on the scale And so when you learn to basically say less You actually show your audience that you have more confidence and that is Compelling to people and it's and it's real. It's not like phony bravado, right? It's like what I'm about to explain to you is good enough that I just need to explain it to you Nothing else like that just cuts through like a knife today and it's saying Hey audience, I know you're smart enough to put this together, right? I don't need to explain it to you. You're smart. You're smart And it's good and I'm excited to share this with you And it's that good because if it wasn't that good I'd be trying to sell you on it because that's what you've learned is that people who are trying to sell you crap will just Endlessly try to sell you crap They will try to develop closing techniques and they will you know Objection techniques how to get over these things like yeah, we know all those things It's not gonna help if you use my name over and over again in a sales pitch like it's not helping you and we used to teach people that oh, yeah Like could you imagine doing that today? It's unbelievable. Well, it makes you cringe. Yeah sitting on the other side. Just please stop Please you're treating me like an idiot. Yeah, I don't like it. That's right now. You're the idiot. That's treating me that way That's right I think there's something else to be said of when you keep it simple it allows the other people to start to take Action and the more you complicate things or the more information that's going on It's all of a sudden this this project that you want me to buy in on sounds like a pain in the ass Right now. They're thinking about the simpler action. Like what am I gonna have for lunch? That's what they're thinking about they're not like oh, let me string together this theory that you just put together. Yeah now Obviously the listeners are like, but my idea is complicated three minutes. I could never heard Yeah, I mean like you know like one of my clients has a type one diabetes Anti-rejection therapy drug for the telemeters on your on your gene therapy stuff like it's complicated And they have the same idea where it's like we have so much information It's like I know you do and by the way, no investor is going to get in without all of that information They are going to dig through this like crazy. Yeah, it's called diligence after the pitch All you and usually what I try to get people to understand is like, okay What do you what is actually your objective like when you actually break down what your objective is like? I didn't go into a room with a network trying to get them to buy the show I went into the room to try to get them to ask me questions about the show to show interest because that's like really all you Can do because if they don't they just go like, okay, got it. Thanks. Well, you know if we're interested like so When I when I look at someone's objectives like are you getting them to like the person that you're in this meeting right now? Are you you think they have a checkbook with them and they're gonna write a check in the in the room? Like, you know, that doesn't happen very often anymore, right? Like that's not really a thing the best case scenarios. They go back to their office and say hey, Danny I want you to do due diligence on Evil micro tech or whatever right like that's about it because then when they say, oh, why would we do that? guess what they have to regurgitate everything they've heard from me and I Have an exercise where I have people take their favorite movie of all time and no matter what they do No matter how much they want to try to explain it you can't get past three minutes like it That's it. That's all you have in there Everything of value is about three minutes. So whatever you give to somebody in your meeting when they go to explain someone why they're interested They might have three minutes So really all you want to focus on is like, okay, what's the simplest version of this to keep them? From saying no From wanting them to go talk to their wife or their partner or schedule another meeting or let the committee decide or ask for a Proposal like whatever that next step is They most likely will say no to most things they see your job should be like Can I get them to stay interested long enough to get more info? So if you think your business is really complicated, that's fine But the beginning and the opening of it doesn't have to be we'll get to the complications later And then those complications can be really valuable. They can be the thing that make people go. Oh my god Like that's amazing like you can get people into that mode because they Understand it the same way you do and until they do that It's there's no value there and the thing is this is not saying don't do your homework This is not saying don't prepare right? You hear three minutes. It's like, oh, okay It's not easy to do like it's easier than you're probably making it at your listeners right now because they're probably making it Super hard, but it's not just about making it shorter. It's about okay if I could extend somebody's decision-making process What is the most valuable information I could have in there if the black hole it opens for a finite amount of time How much stuff can I cram in there before it seals shut right? And if you go through your information, and I have a great so I have good exercise great exercise depending on if you like it That show you how to take what you have and put them into statements of value Order them in the proper order in this whack order that I've created so that you can see okay This is the order to lay it in that's how your audience is gonna make this decision. Let's Break that down because statements of value I think is a really important concept introduced early in the book And I think if you understand this or we're gonna go into whack next you really can put this together in a way That changes your career that gives you more opportunity whether you want to pitch in Hollywood or hey You got a great idea for your boss saying it there it is, you know So what are these statements of value and how do we derive them from our idea? So after you sort of broken it down into those bullet points that sort of give you all the ideas And there's a couple of exercise that I use to really dive past your simple bullet points that you think of all the time You really want to make those into statements. So it's like if you're a personal trainer your bullet point might be Personal trainer and then your statement of value may be like I'm a personal trainer specializing in celebrities or specializing in those for the movies or whatever that is right like you get a state one statement that has a valuable piece of information in it and then what you find is if you have those statements of value you have a collection of them Then you can start to be like like a puzzle. Okay, what's the outside edges of the puzzle? You know where you put first and what's the middle and as I walk people through that system You can see like now and I have people do my index cards or post-its Where you can grab them and hold them and change them and cross them out and move them around in order And you start to see as a sort of a living Breathing entity that you can feel the flow like you know almost like oceans in the way Do you can feel it building as you go through it and you see these statements in front of you? And that I found really powerful for people. So we have our idea Yeah, and then we start writing down bullet points on post-it notes Yeah, and you like the post-it notes because it doesn't give you much space. That's right You can't write a paragraph. You can't put your fancy graph. That's right You got to just jot it down you get this collection of post-it notes And now you're starting to subtract the ones that are repetitive the ones that are just not very helpful Yes, and you have your bullets now. You're like, okay. How do I assemble this into an actual story that is compelling? Yes, what's great about it. It's almost like a storyboard. It is like a storyboard You know it goes back to this editing idea How many shots you have or that are redundant that are not adding and if they're not adding It's possible that there's right and you know when you film stuff You connect scenes and ideas that you're like you thought those scenes need to go together And you're like, yeah, we don't really need that one technically we could fill this gap And that's what it forces people to do because you might end up in the book and it's sort of like There's a little bit of a review here But I do tell people hey you're gonna start with 25 bullet points But then I get them up to like 50 or more because I have exercise that get them out of your brain The ones you didn't think of because what I want them to do is look at it And be like oh crap. I can't say all this and it's like yeah, I know that's the point that you can't say all this Let's start figuring out what you're supposed to say and now they realize okay like if I'm gonna put it into these categories Like where do I put them what things are the most important because then you're like and then as you know like I have this Cool test where it's like hey if the fire alarm went off a couple minutes into your pitch Have you said the most important things or are you thinking your M night Shyamalan? Waiting for this big six cents moment at the end where you reveal the value like that doesn't work You know yeah, but then their assistants have come in again They're placing their little order there and this happens this literally happened to be at MTV I had Brian Grayden in the room as a president network. I was pitching a show and Fire alarm went off and you know what it's like in office everybody sits there and be like Where's the fire alarm going off like but then it was like hey No, I think we have to actually evacuate and somebody came in said hey, they're making us evacuate crap So we go out and there's a thousand people in the parking lot and they finally clear the the the parking lot Okay, you guys go back in the building guess what Brian Grayden didn't come back that meeting and I didn't say enough in those first minutes to get the pitch across like there was so much I wanted to say and like I ruined that chance because I didn't give him enough to make him go Oh, hey I'm gonna come back to this meeting and I certainly didn't give him enough to say like oh I don't need to go back because I already have an I already have it in my brain And that's why I started developed like hey This is a good exercise because if you can't do that you're toast because the assistant will come in and screw your pitch Somebody will ask a lot of question the cell phone will ring you got to get those first things in place So what is this whack acronym? Yeah, so how do we put this all together? It's a good one. It stands for It's an acronym whack is whac that's the spelling and it's what is it? How does it work? Are you sure and can you do it and when you have your statements of value? Put them in that order because that's the order that you're gonna explain the information And here's the easiest way to understand it when someone's trying to pitch or present or tell you a story or do anything any kind of interaction They're trying to explain something to you. How many times your brain have you been going? Oh my god Could you just tell me what this is like, okay, just what it how does it work? Like could you just tell me how this isn't like what it is and how it works like your brain naturally wants those two things solved Absolutely first. What is it? How does it work? And so in the whack method, it's like, okay all your statements Which are the ones that tell people what it is on the simplest plane? What are the ones that tell you how it works like literally? How does it work? How do you do this? Okay, once we got those two things now your audience has conceptualized it and that's important now They're gonna be like, okay Does it really work that way? Like are you sure you can actually do that? Does this make sense like wait aren't there laws against that or like well wait I thought I thought there's only four of those in existence like then someone's like, okay I understand it, but now I want to verify There and that's where you use your facts figures logic reason that basically say yeah You know there was a law passed last week or we actually have 42 in stock or whatever it is that says These are the validation of how it works and what it is, right? And then the last piece is like can you do it meaning like okay? Well, what is it cost? Okay, when can I get it delivered? Okay? Well, what's the next step for us to work together or okay? I want you to meet the boss or this doesn't work for me or you know I mean this I'm not the right person you should be pitching to what whatever that last piece is That's where they're going with actualization like okay. I understand it I believe it now. I got to decide if I'm gonna actualize this. What's my next step of action? That's that's really the flow of anybody's rationalization story And so all you want to do is lay it out in that format and people will start to understand and respond the way you hope they do and In today's day and age Very very rarely are we in a situation where we're just pitching one decision-maker and boom? I mean we're after it How do you tell your pitch for a committee where you know, there's gonna be legal there's gonna be marketing There's gonna be a budget by committee is I say decision by committee and I'm telling you in any language I hear the same groans like I will have it's not my committee No, that's the way the world is right So you got to understand how we make decisions like we do what's called the rationalization story So every decision we make and we're the only species that does this we rationalize So what you're gonna have for lunch today, you know why you chose this office? Why people kill their wives? Why we go to war? It doesn't matter what it is why you're gonna cheat on your best friends with his wife Like all of the bad decisions we rationalize them so that we live with them We understand them and we've made that decision and it's a great exercise To if you think about a big decision, let's say the car you drive which is funny because I did this in New York And I forgot people don't drive cars so I'm asking about the car they drive But if you think about the car you drive and I ask you simply why did you choose that car? And you say it to yourself, and you go a couple layers deeper. Okay, so but why is that important? Why did you choose it that way? Why is that the most important thing? Why do you value that you build a dozen? Sentences and you do that for five or six questions If you listen to what you just said to yourself like there's no adjectives or adverbs in there It's the simplest version of your explanation for the one of the biggest Like financial decisions of your life You've just explained to yourself in super simple terms with the most valuable thing right up front And then the explanation of those things as you go. That's called the rationalization story, and if you can make someone else Feel the same about your story if you can mimic your pitch to the way they will rationalize it They have a really good chance of explaining it to somebody else And so if you're dealing with decision by committee or death by committee what you want to do is Give them the ammunition to answer the question. Hey, why did you like that? Why did you invest in that? Why did you want to buy this? Why should we get involved? Why are we talking about this today? Because they have to answer it and if you can give them the what is it how it works? Are you sure and can you do it? they will Take their their committee through the same rationalization process and here's what's great If you do it right, they don't have to put themselves on the line because that's the death by committee No one is gonna stand and be like oh my god. I saw it. It was so amazing. It's gonna fundamentally change our company Here's what it was because somebody in that committee will be like fundamentally change our company. What are you talking about? I hate that idea so what they've learned to do is So guys I got this pitch the other day. I mean I might be okay I don't know I wasn't really sure but I wanted to find out what you guys thought like I mean it wasn't great I mean, you know, but maybe it was I don't know let's talk about here's what it was It was kind of like that and then they hear somebody be like oh, I don't get it. Oh, I didn't get it either That was my thing. Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea like right? I mean how many times you know that happens to whatever it was plenty no one wants to stick their neck out And by the way, I watched it happen to one of my TV shows I act like the president network brought me into the room of the green light meeting which Producers never get in because he couldn't explain the show and he found it was going away And I happened to be in waiting for him downstairs And I watched people marketing people press whatever these people were deputies to deputies of Assistants or whatever and they just poked holes in everything and they're mean and they're unhelpful and they're just they just seem like Nasty people that's what I felt like because it was my idea and you guys were saying mean things about it Right, and I realized like if I wasn't in that room this thing was dead And so if you give people the information in a way that they can Relay it without having to put themselves in the line That's the best chance you're gonna get because they can be like oh, yeah, I saw this thing Here's what it is and here's how it works They do have this connector. They actually got regulatory approval and we can have it here in six months They don't have to say I think it's great or I was so impressed or like this is gonna make us ten million dollars Or here's the you know, we should definitely hire this company. They don't say any of that they just have to give the information because you've given them those weapons and That's how you survive that committee now of course When we're starting out and we love our idea and we're so excited to share it with people There are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to pitching a lot of us have these Visualizations of fireworks and this is going to be amazing and I'm gonna have this crazy PowerPoint What are those misconceptions that you dispel with your clients all the time? I think the first one is well, there's two big ones one is passion. There is just this Blanket understanding that you have to be passionate about your pitch And if you don't have passion, you're never gonna get there which is somewhat true But really dangerous because passion isn't a blanket right you don't throw it over everything Because when you're trying to be passionate about something you end up right on the line of Making it about you and not the idea and if you make it about you that means people are gonna start judging you more than the idea and that's a really dangerous place to be because What you end up doing a lot of times is going into promotional Passionate is one thing promotion is a different thing and when people sense you being promotional It's like you're dead and so it's a tightrope you walk and What I explained to people is the greater your desire to achieve your outcome The more likely you will turn passion into promotion Because you really need them to buy in you've bought in so much and so the greater your desire for them to buy in The more likely you will say anything you need to to make that happen and today people will pick up on that So what I try to explain to people is be passionate about your facts not your opinions When you're passionate about your opinions people will judge you when you're passionate about your facts They understand why you're passionate. They may not share it, but they understand it And I've had so many people come into my office to pitch me a TV show and it's a terrible idea now That happens every day, right? I pitched bad ideas But they're so passionate about it about how it's gonna be amazing and how it's gonna be a hit and like Advertiser gonna be in it. They're so passionate about the bad idea that it's like, okay It's a bad idea and then I tell my assistant I don't ever want them in my office again because they don't understand the process and I was never like that I was never like that in the network meeting saying. Oh my god. This is me. This is such an amazing idea It wasn't like it was like, hey, I've got an idea Here's what it is and it's like the parts that are factual that you can't start the sentence I think or in my opinion if you can start a sentence with that you need to tone it right down Because it's like in my opinion. I think this is gonna be really good is okay, but oh my god This is gonna be so amazing Does not help your cause right and I've noticed and obviously watching Shark Tank Which is the ultimate right pitch. Yeah in the book talks about this the pitches are about three minutes That's what our attention span is the editing and often times People get too bogged down in these big numbers and trying to prove to the right sharks That there's this market because they drew these fancy numbers and there's five billion people on this planet So therefore this is a hit right and that doesn't work. No, that never works information yet I don't need to the five billion number yet. If I have all of the information Then I might be interested like oh the market share is that big like okay at some relevance, right? And what you'll find is Shark Tank's a perfect example is that People will feel like you've watched it good idea and then right at the end they go well sharks Who wants to dive in with me and you're like you can see Mark Cuban go like oh god like they roll their eyes Because it's like, oh, right. This is a pitch. Yeah, I forgot you've rehearsed this 500 times in the mirror and you're pitching everybody, you know, like it pulls people out of the story, right and You just don't need to do that. You don't need an ending. You don't need a fancy closing You don't need to perform. It's just not necessary right now. Like if you lead your audience, they will get there They'll want more from you. That's what they do Now, how do you approach follow-up? Well, just to go along with that when I I Seen several episodes of shark tank, but there's there's obviously certain pitches that still stick out in my mind and one of them was this on its In its value was a really silly stupid idea. It was a guy who drew who draws people custom cat pictures That was it. That was that was his his company, right and mark bought it Like that because when I when I look at black, right? What is it? Well, I draw people custom cat pictures How does it work? Well, you you sent me a picture or you tell me what you want and I and I draw it and then There was well, how do we are you sure is like do they even look good? Like are they interesting pictures? Yeah, how many of you sold already right or I show you a quick you're like, oh, well, that is kind of cool And and how was he gonna make it work? Well, it turns out that he was Great with SEO so he was able to get a lot of traffic to this thing and people buy and mark was like that was it that was It was over right and that and that silly thing and you you see some incredible stuff on that show But that it's not always the most incredible products that are going to get no And I've seen shark tank episodes where the guy screwed up the pitch so badly that I went to go try to find I Like that's a good product But it's nobody bought it and it's nowhere and it's like I remember thinking that like that poor guy And I remember him shaking and he was nervous and I was just like oh man That was a really great product the fact that I remember that and I've even looked this up And I must have seen that seven years ago. I can't even remember and there's the website. Yeah, I've seen on shark tank That picture Because again like there's a lot of questions about cat pictures and the marketability and all that kind of stuff But to get to those questions and to have those answers be really valuable and impactful You kind of need the preamble that like now you and I could have a real cat picture business Conversation because I know exactly what it is how it works I'm sure of it because I've seen a cat picture now seen it and I know how he does Okay, now we can really get into the nuances of it And if our business is gonna invest or we're we're a competing cat picture company Do we want to buy like I get it like now we get it and that's why that resonated And again, you didn't need to do a lot more Like and what you talk about in the book and I think this is an important sidebar for our audience is You know nervousness is okay if if you actually dial in whack and you can share The relevant information we will look beyond the nerves and we're expecting nerves So I think a lot of us get bogged down and like oh my god. I'm so terrified to share this And oh that went terribly But listen if you nail this if you nail the first three minutes in the whack You could be shaking and you tell a story in the book about a size that's on stage If I had to pick one way or the other I'd be like I'd rather you stumble and nervous and sweat through your Your clothes than be a guy. Hey, how are you like? Yeah, because there's actually it's and it's gonna get It's gonna get more in the future because I can see the swinging is that if you're really bad at pitching and you're like stumbling I might believe that you haven't pitched this very much Or that I might have an opportunity here that you might not have one else knows somebody else might not have seen this because You're kind of a dud and like you're annoying And so this might be an opportunity and I always used to make the joke about canadians coming to los angeles I was like hey like when I first came here the idea that I had you know script and I had ideas people genuinely thought well Well, he's a canadian. No one's ever probably heard these things before they could actually be good Whereas like if you were a native Person from los angeles it'd be like well if your script was any good somebody would have read it by now Right and so it's like if you're terrible at pitching and awkward as hell There's a chance people will start to think like oh, wow. He's probably hasn't got very good meetings This could be a real opportunity, right? because And then if you are I bet you'll do the work I bet your whack method and I bet your pitch is is Dialed in perfectly because I have seen that with my own eyes. I have seen people who are Absolutely unbearable personalities Just awful, but when they get the information, right? It's like oh, wow They are not expecting people to like them or to be drawn to them or want to listen to them Pass those three minutes and it's like it's so much more powerful because it's just the information. So it was it's amazing now Obviously when we're talking about Death by committee, there's a follow-up Involved yeah to any pitch. Yeah, and we talked about the likelihood of them just going. Oh great idea. Boom. Let's move Here's resources, whatever it is How do you approach follow-up? Especially for those of us who are a little newer in our career who don't really have a name or a network yet Yeah, you know, it's hard because that that is a fine line. Like it's not just the simplicity of that that's like Sometimes people need to be pushed a little bit The problem is his follow-up has always been connected with closing And closing has been taught and it's a terrible thing because It will tell your audience that there's a string attached if I need to do this right now There's a problem and I make the joke where it's like I don't do anything without checking amazon reviews Like even if it's something that's not on amazon or it's not a product whatever like what's the weather today? I don't know. I gotta check an amazon review like my world is like Surround and everybody's in that mode, right? So i'll go back to my gordon ramsey example like if I had gordon ramsey to cater your wedding But I put a sheet of paper in front of you and said but you got to sign it right now All of a sudden our conversation changes and now you're like, oh wait a second like Well, how long is gordon gonna be there? Like is it it's the gordon ramsey right and like well, do you have him committed to you? Like is it like the sign like what happens if you can't it's all of a sudden everything changes, right? so follow up if you if you Separate it from closing Because there is no closing like people will close themselves or they won't they already know You pushing is not going to help and the and the customers that you could push to close There's not enough of them out there to warrant the kind of time and energy that you're going to be putting into it And on the flip side they oftentimes are terrible customers It's if you've had to push them that hard to the decision that skepticism doesn't stop after they've paid you In fact, it's even more heightened and they're like i'm ready for a refund. You didn't deliver So I always go with the idea of like reminder And asks and that's about it like hey just reminding you next week. I'm gonna be moving this whatever Did you want to like once you ask you know you know, right? Like it's like I and I won't share who it is, but I have a very good friend Who has a popular media thing that I wanted to get on I wanted to get on his show And we talked quite a bit on text and I asked twice And he responded to a lot of other things in my text But not can I get on your show and so it's like yeah, I could call my publicist. I could call his manager I could get our agents involved, but it's like I already know the answer I'm not big enough for his show and he doesn't want to tell me that he doesn't want to say it He's not mad enough to just have the conversation with me fine. I get it but In in my heart like I kind of want to ask and push for the no like But I know I know I knew the first time he didn't respond to that text that he was leery to it The second time I know he's avoiding it. We have you know that we have that that wanting that needs to close that loop, right? But it's the loops closed. You know, it's closed. It's closed It's fine. And if you keep pushing yeah, you push people away. Yeah, and there's no coming back from that and like It just doesn't Make any sense, right? And I'm working with um big Las Vegas entertainment group and they have a tax a timeshare Uh company and they're really struggling because the the audience for timeshares Isn't changing from a traveler perspective, but it's the people that that will succumb to that Emotional buy in the moment, right a timeshare needs you to get you on the property Get you all drunk and high and happy and then have you sign on the dotted line right now Kind of without reading things, right? Like that's kind of the way the sales process has gone Like they have to close you on the phone. You can't go research and it's like hey Nobody buys like that anymore and the people that you can get to buy like that are or are aging out and there's few of them up there like you can't run a business like that and so For us to go through the process and be like, hey, you guys are gonna have to come up with value like Surprise surprise timeshares do have value to a very large part of the population You just got to find those people and you got to qualify them and like you got to give them the value So they feel like i'm seeing it all You won't need to close them the same way like they'll be like great. I do travel this much I do have kids. I would like to know What my vacation plans will be for the next nine years. I don't want to have to worry about budgets I don't want to be like, okay, this works for you and it's a brilliant idea, but that's lost And so closing and follow up if you start mixing those things together people are like urge urge alarm bells And trusting your intuition on it. I feel like we all have you know it You know the loops by any sense, you know, you know if they're gonna close or not You know it so just and you know and you're better off You're better off to pitch a hundred times getting the nose as fast as you can Because then you're gonna get to the s's as opposed to chasing the maybes And maybe you convert one But it's like the amount of energy that you put into those maybes is just not worth it And once you get by the way once your pitch gets faster and and more efficient and and simpler in that sense Like you'll be able to get it out more. You'll be able to happy about it. You'll feel more confident You'll get to more people. They'll respond better like you won't even be chasing the maybes. You won't need it Now is this something you do with family and friends? Oh all the time our family and friends doing it on you Yes, my son does it all the time My wife's better at it And you'll also find that I like you get better at hearing people's value Like I can hear your statements of value so fast now that even when I'm talking to my friends and relatives Like I can hear what they're trying to say and I want to stop them be like just stop talking I've got it like all the time right But my son knows how to do it now because he's figured it out where it's like, you know what dad wants He just wants the information. So he just comes in dad. Here's what I need. Here's why I want to do it Here's what the protect like here's why it's gonna work out. Okay Like if you want to borrow my car, I have a really cool old muscle car and he's just like here's where I want to take it Here's why it's important to me to take this car as opposed to driving my car or a different car Here's the reason why you know It's gonna be okay because I've done this this and this in the past I've never let you down and it's like You're not going to be using it like what he knows and it's just like I could say no just for the sake of saying no, but like I don't really have a good excuse to say no I could say oh, I don't want you to drive my car, but it's like that's not gonna work he's driven it before so He knows that really and I've watched my wife do with my my parents her in-laws like Trying to convince them of something. She's just like, okay, I'm not gonna get emotional I'm not gonna get off track. I'm just gonna like Here's what we want to do for vacation this year. Here's what we want you to be there like and it's just like yeah It's like it's so much better There's all these little skills that we tend to use all the time And we don't really know that they can be developed. Yeah storytelling is one of those things we're all selling we're all we're always pitching as well and and last month Our topic that we sat on and and went into was storytelling, right? And I know that you had some insights on where to insert a good story around this for your yeah And because a lot of people think of storytelling in that in a sort of like literal sense as in I went here and then I did this right and that's fine That is obviously a story but storytelling is really the process of Sort of like a breadcrumb trail of information that people can follow somewhere They they follow your build of your character. They follow the the value of your product Whatever they're following piece by piece. That's how storytelling is done and so The place where it really makes a lot of sense is I use what's called the reason for being the opening like a lot of people ask how do you open a pitch and it's like, yeah the small talk about blah blah, but The the best way to open a pitch is the story of how you came to be involved with it When did you think this was going to be a good idea not claiming? Oh my god, I've got something amazing for you but just like When did this happen to you like how if you're sitting here going to pitch or present something to someone You've gone through a process That made you believe in it enough to have you sitting in this chair So there's got to be a reason and there's usually a story there that sets up that reason for being and it's What you know and I explained from a Hollywood side like there's a reason why Bambi's mom dies at the beginning of the movie It's not relevant to the story of Bambi It doesn't have anything to do with that piece. It didn't have to happen then but it does Have to happen then to tell Bambi's story in a sense because it sets up your reason for being Here's why Bambi's alone. Here's why you should care and That's kind of the setup like what's your Bambi story? Like how did you get here? Okay? Now I know this is how I want you to feel And here we go like you know what's coming and you're like, okay And you set the tone for that right and that's a great story And then I usually try to have people do what's called the callback Like if you've ever watched a stand-up comedian, you know that there's a joke in the beginning That somehow they're bringing back where they use that punchline again It's good for a laugh and they're really good at that whereas It's a little more subtle in movies and stuff But there's always that callback Which is like if the reason for being in the opening is why you thought it was good Or when you believed it was going to be something good What's the story when you knew it was good? What's the story when you realized? Oh, wow This really does work. I have to tell someone. Yeah, I have to share it Right or like the first time it really like resonated or you hit a sales goal or something that says Oh my god, I'm really on to something So those two stories kind of bookend in there and they really do well because you tell the story of how we Got here and how this is then I tell you what it is and how it works and I show you some of the details and then I'll be like And now you can see it right like now. I knew I had it and that That for me is that aha moment It's like like you almost want to say to you like you see you see what I'm saying like you understand right like That's where that story helps where you realize that it happened that there was something there And that piece is when you learn to use that bread crumb trail style You can make almost anything compelling you can make anybody less if you do it right if you just leave them in pieces That's the way we want information. Well, I think that initial story too Instead of you coming in it's like this all-knowing expert and I I'm smarter than you It really puts you in the the shoes of the person who's about to receive the pitch of like I didn't even know this was a thing either right checked out this discovery. Yeah, but I'm so excited Yeah, and that's like oh, okay, and you can do it like Again, the story isn't about the quality of the story of the details It's really about the the format and if I told you the story of how I came here this morning, right? Like I get out in my car, but I've been raining and so there was drops all over the windows, right? So I had I had to look for my windshield wipers, but I live in Los Angeles. So it's like where am I wish? So I turn the windshield wipers and then I'm you know, there's a canyon From my house, so I can't make a call and I want to call my assistant and get details on the address So I got to wait but then I then I get a call as soon as I get out of the canyon So now I'm coming up to that part of the 405 and the 170 or the five where it's like I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be going down the 405 Or the 170 and I'm trying to get this person off the phone, but you know, they're talking a lot So I'm getting nervous. So I have to make a 50 50 decision Now listen, I could keep going nothing happened on the way down here. There was really nothing interesting But it's like it's it's one thing after another my thoughts are clear I'm not like on this happened. Oh, but oh, yeah, but I forgot this Oh, and then she does this over there. Oh, and then my assistant, but she does over here Oh, yeah, but my assistant, but she doesn't live in in my house like I don't I'm not Clouding it. I'm just like this happened and then this happened and that led to this and then this happened And then this happened and that's the that's the classic storytelling Formula it's not sexy. It's not interesting. One of my one of my mentors was one of the greatest Hollywood writers of all time Steven J. Cannell and like he couldn't write sexy or like overly Subtle or interesting to save his life Like he did the a team and and like it's just Straight forward as it gets like and yeah, there's a Quentin Tarantino out there that does this wild storytelling technique But there's really only one other two of those guys, you know Like and for every loss that becomes a huge hit that's all over the place like There's thousands of episodes of CSI or NCIS or these shows that never fail to deliver and like You want to be try to be the Quentin Tarantino of pitching your idea? Okay, that's not a really great idea. I don't think You know that and then story this happened and then this happened And then it went here is like that's what we're trained to do we build information that way It's easy to follow along It's easy to straight line shot much like the pitch the story has to be the same Or we're already thinking about lunch It's it's breadcrumbs and if you start with breadcrumbs and feed it piece by piece At some point the person's gonna be like holy shit. I just ate lunch, you know what I mean like that's the I'm not gonna use that later Actually before you go we love to give our audience I love this We love to give our audience a challenge You have a great challenge in the book called the telephone test Yes, can you share it with our audience for this week's challenge? Only if they promise to do it because I have people that promise to do it Then I know they don't because it's a little bit of a pain in the ass So what's your social handle and they will hit you up and let you know that's right I'm at brant pinvidic on any of the handles you I will help guide you through this because it's really valuable What you do in the telephone test the same as that telephone game that used to play I whisper to you you whisper to him He whispers them they whisper to her and you see what comes back right you take your pitch or presentation You call somebody it doesn't really know you that well It wouldn't know and you give them the pitch unadulterated Just square on its own and you say I need you to call somebody Pitch it to them have them call somebody else and then have them call one more person and here's the number to call me back, right? and You may actually have to like and we use I do with clients like buy starbucks gift card I'll give you a $10 gift card if you can do this everybody who calls it, you know Whatever you got to do, but you've got to make them do the three or four layers You can't have them call somebody and then then call you back because it's not going to be a false positive You need at least three layers What you're going to find is what comes back to you on that phone call because it's going to be someone that you don't even know And they're going to be like, uh, okay I'm supposed to call this number and pitch this idea thing that I heard and you're like, okay great I'm telling you what comes back is going to make you very uncomfortable because you'll be like, what are you talking about? That is not it all right So then you go do it again and what you're going to find is First of all the stranger that calls you whatever information they're saying back That's what's resonating. So some things valuable. Oh, wow, okay They really like that part or that's that obviously resonates where they remember that But this was something I really wanted them to remember. Why didn't they let me see if I move it up in the process Maybe that's more valuable than I thought or maybe it's not something I need You go back to your whack and you see that If I promise you if you do that telephone test three times three different times with different people Which again, it could take you all day to do The value of what comes back and what you'll feel like when that phone rings And it's someone you don't know and they pitch back your idea the way it went out You will feel like you won the Super Bowl I have been in conference meetings with scientists that are jumping up and down Like splashing water on each other like high fiving freaking out because we've been sitting in a conference room Waiting for the phone call to come back and we spent $400 on gift cards to try to get people to do it And it's just such a powerful exercise and like Again, it's easy to not do it, but man the value of it is is It's world-class value for that's just a few hours. What happens with your idea. Yeah, by the way It's battle testing. I got news for you. That's what happens. It's just they're not calling you back Right when they do call you back. They don't pitch the idea back. They just go Yeah, it's not for us or like, oh, they said no, right? Like that's what's happening out there Very good point. I'm gonna use that too. By the way and and with your thoughts on practicing the pitch Is there a Guideline you have a threshold for yourself. Obviously the telephone test is fantastic. Yeah, uh that you know, okay This is ready for me to go in that room. I mean It's once you get that like if you get the telephone test back You're ready and you can try it out and I like I always tell me like hey, it's it's three minutes you should be trying out a lot of people And the you know, the one thing you'll probably find is people interrupt you and they say like, oh, what about this? Or how did this go and it's like, oh wait, I'm getting to that in a minute. Okay. That's when you know One of two things because I've now learned there are some other options and just you don't have it in the right order You could be pitching an idiot. It does happen. I've had it happen in tv many many times Where it's like, okay, you're just a moron and you just want a jibber jabber. You're not really interested I have had that happen enough to me and I think I'm pretty good at this So I'm like, okay, so I'll give you a pass if that happens and you're genuinely pitching an idiot That could happen But most times is because Your breadcrumbs are not quite in the order and they get to the end of the breadcrumbs lie and they go Wait, I'm still hungry and you're like, wait, I got more breadcrumbs over you And so it helps you do that when you feel like you can get through it Confinitely you're ready to unleash it because the downside is really small If you have something elaborate that you've built this whole performance Downside is big when you get it wrong if you're just talking information Your information is not going to change that much no matter how many times you rehearse it Not much bad can happen if the person understands it There doesn't matter how many times you explain it or how well you explain it if they understand it They understand it now. It's yes or no like and that's that's really where you want to be Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a lot of fun. I love this. You guys are fantastic Where can our audience find more about you and how to work with you? Yeah, I'm easy to find at brant pinvidic on any of the social stuff Or you can always go to the three minute rule calm and connect to me there I love talking to people. I'll respond to anything you send me as long as it's less than three minutes I always say But I love interacting with people and it's just like It's that time in my life where I'm like, oh, I'm not making widgets anymore like tv was for me It's like I get to interact with different people doing different things People are really passionate about their stuff. There's a genuine frustration. They have and it's like Unlocking that for people is is a little addictive. So I'm totally into it And that's what I loved about the book the stories of all these different industries and your ability to unlock it And the simple tools in the book that allow you to take that idea and get it out there Yeah, I'm gonna blast. So thank you so much. Absolutely guys But I feel alive