 G'day and welcome to this month's Redback Business Skills show. I'm your host, Daniel Kim, and it's great to have your company once again. Now, for the first time in many years, we are coming to you live in a remote format today, hence the headsets. This is all against the backdrop of social distancing and restrictions around travel. Isn't it great that we happen to be a conferencing company as well as a streaming company, because the show must go on. Now, on the program today, we are exploring the importance of customer feedback, and joining me live via video link to help us understand why customer feedback is critical at a time like this, is the CEO of Jago, Terry Wiley. Terry, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you, Daniel. I appreciate you having me on. It's great to have you with us. Isn't it weird that we're doing these video link-ups and everything? It's a sign of the times that we're living in. Sure is, and as you say, good job that you're in that business. Yes, absolutely. Very thankful, actually, it's not the easiest of times for people. Now, customer feedback has always been a staple in business, but it's absolutely essential in times as uncertain as these. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously challenging times at this point. So, customer feedback in many ways can play a more important role for businesses during this time of change. So, for me personally, I think it's a very timely subject to have. Yeah, now, customer feedback is also a bit of a broad area. So, can you tell us a bit about what we're going to focus on today? Yeah, absolutely, and you're right. I mean, it may sound a bit obvious in terms of what customer feedback is. And quite often, customer feedback is part of a program, you know, a customer feedback or customer experience program. And having a method in which to gather and collate customer feedback is quite often part of that program and a very critical important part of it. So, we're going to focus a bit more on that today in terms of what we need to look out for, you know, why we need to do it and obviously give some sort of case studies on that sort of stuff as well. But, you know, right now, I'm conscious that there's different people on the call from different businesses and different life cycles in terms of their customer experience programs. So, we're going to keep it fairly generic, but obviously there's an opportunity to ask me questions later on. But right now, as an example, you know, people may be asking for feedback through a web-based form. They may have a tool in place already that they're looking to improve. And in some cases, they may not be doing anything at all or just relying on the customer contact and the feedback. So, we're going to look at other ways, better ways in my opinion, in terms of getting that feedback to make a difference to the business. That's excellent, clearly lost unpack there. And just to put it out there and be really transparent with everyone, this is not a sales exercise. I mean, Terry is the CEO of a customer feedback kind of company. But the point of today isn't to talk about how good his company is, et cetera, et cetera. We're talking about how businesses and organizations need to be able to incorporate feedback in an ongoing manner to help them navigate a time when nobody knows what's going on really and things are changing by the minute almost. So, that's just out there for everybody's clarification. Clearly lost unpack today. Terry really looking forward to it. And of course, don't forget, you can join our conversation today by clicking the dark blue hand icon at the top of your screen and get a question in. Normally, if we were in the studio, I'd have like a little iPad here where your questions come through. I'm in a little meeting studio room set up here. So, you know, you've got the little headset. I've got a little laptop here and I've second screen. So during Q&A, you'll see me turn away from the camera to read your questions coming through. It's not because I'm ignoring you. It's because I'm actually reading through your questions. Again, it's that dark blue hand icon at the top. The light blue icon, of course, is the resources button. If you'd like to download a couple of documents before you go. But Terry, I reckon we can get straight into this. Let's talk a bit about customer feedback because, you know, there are a few different types of forms and feedback survey tools out there. And customer feedback can sound a bit obvious. But, you know, in your experience, is it obvious and what exactly is feedback? Yeah, it probably does sound obvious. And as I mentioned earlier on, you know, it's just a process of obtaining feedback from our customers. And like most things, there's customer feedback and there's customer feedback. So it's about how we do it and how we execute and then deal with that information. So it benefits the business in different ways. And you're right, Daniel. I mean, there's lots of different platforms out there and different survey methods or methodologies. And I'd like to explore those a little bit just sort of quickly because, you know, we get asked this question a lot in terms of what measures should we have in place? And there's different survey types and methods. You know, there's what we call CSAT, which is short for customer satisfaction, normally a one to five scale. We have net promoter score or NPS as is commonly known, which is an 11 point scale ranging from zero to 10. Some people use graphics. So it's, you know, sad faces, happy faces. And in some cases, it could just be stars. So kind of a review style mechanism where we've got five stars. The important thing is to not necessarily get hooked up on what that scale is, that kind of methodology. The critical thing is having a measure in place. So whether you choose NPS or a different rating scale, it's just about ensuring that you can measure your performance over time and then benchmark yourself against that. But personally, I am a fan of net promoter score. It is a global standard, I guess. You know, a lot of enterprises use that globally around about 90, 95% too. It's used because it's simple. I know that sounds a bit, probably derogatory to NPS, but the beauty is in its simplicity. And I like the fact that we can actually have a slightly more granular scale that we can measure our performance a little bit better. So for instance, what I mean by that is if we've got a one to five rating scale, I could be stuck on three for quite a bit. But if I'm using a greater, more granular scale like net promoter score, that could be the difference between moving from five to six or six to seven. So I can actually see some improvement in that rating scale where I might be stuck on a lower rating as in a one to five scale. So I quite like that granularity, but don't get too hung up on the actual scale itself. The measure, it's just important that you've got a measure in place. Great, let's talk about the delivery methods because a lot of feedback surveys that I've been on have been web pages and email invitations, but I've heard recently there have been some SMS invites. Yeah, lots of different ways to ask your customers for feedback, but part of that depends on your business. If you're lucky enough to have email addresses or phone numbers of your customers, then that's fantastic, you've got an advantage, but some businesses don't, their hairdressers or walk-in trades or retailers, et cetera is a really good example where they don't always have contact information for their customers. So there's different methods to do that. And that could be, we've seen that printing on receipts, QR codes, and QR codes is a common one in fast food restaurants now, for instance, and it works pretty well. Some organizations have apps, so we can have in-app notifications. We can have Wi-Fi intercepts. So if we're in a restaurant or a cafe or a lounge, an airport lounge, for instance, we can, we've got Wi-Fi services. We can actually intercept that Wi-Fi service with a feedback survey as well. So lots of different methods. The common ones, of course, are email and SMS. And for good reason, we get a good result from those. And there's a couple of critical differences between email and SMS. I'd just like to share those with you. But benefits and disadvantages in some cases to both. The advantage of email is that it's free, which is great, of course. And that, in many cases, is a single justification for using email. SMS, there is a cost, but we actually do see an improved response rate when using SMS. Normally around about a 5% improvement when sending emails, sorry, sending feedback requests via SMS versus email. The slight downside with SMS is that we find that responses are a little bit more brief than those via email, where a lot of people are using a keyboard. So there is some trade-offs in terms of the amount of insight you can get via email versus SMS, but an improved response rate with SMS as well. But just to add to that, actually, an important thing, and it comes back to the previous question about the survey methods and the approach and also design. What is really critical is whether you're doing it via SMS or email. The critical thing is to ensure that the actual survey design is device agnostic. It has to be mobile-friendly. We're seeing now that, on average, across all the industries, all respondent demographic types, around about 70% of surveys are being completed via a mobile device, and that's via email as well. So that's not just SMS, that's email. So really critical that it's device agnostic and also the design of the survey is really important. Make sure it's clean. Make sure it's obvious what you're asking them now. I know that sounds ridiculous, but too many people now are trying to get too fancy and incorporate too much branding and imagery within a survey template or a survey request via email, et cetera. Quite often, the message and the link can get lost within all that's going on and the busyness. So keep it simple. Absolutely get it on brand. Incorporate some color and your logo, but keep it quite plain and simple. That's really important for ensuring you get maximum response rate. So many little nuggets of tips you've thrown at just in that last five-minute segment, Terry. A couple of things I wanted to touch on. 70% in terms of emails being opened on phones or actually survey responses altogether being submitted via a mobile device, that's indicative of a big shift in our device usage preferences. And also, I'm assuming this is gonna only keep increasing now that everybody's working from home and away from the office. Absolutely right. Yeah, this is just a trend that's going up and it will continue to grow up. And we'll touch a bit later on in terms of some of the other aspects of considering mobile and SMS as well, but it's absolutely vital for anyone to get a high volume of feedback, which then feeds a lot of the benefits into the business. So it's a really important consideration. And on the note of SMS, anybody in, this thought just popped up while you were talking about the different channels, anybody in communications will tell you different channels serve different purposes. And you were talking about getting different results depending on what channels you are using. So I suppose that would also lend itself into thinking about what tone is appropriate for what channel and the kind of questions you are asking. Yeah, so it's a really good point actually. And coming back to the kind of design of the surveys, the tone is very similar, stuff to avoid, apart from messy designs and lots of graphics, lots of copy, and copy using different language. No, that means different language in the sense of a different language. Just keep it simple. Keep it everyday language, everyday speak, which is terrible language, but that's a reality. And also ensure that we're not using templates, because we've seen a lot of tools that are being used by companies that come from overseas. And quite often they may have fairly standard templates in, so US spelling for instance, and it's clearly not localized or personalized enough. So the tone is really important to keep people engaged, clearly make sure it's personalized and it's an easy thing to do. Because all that has an impact on your likelihood to improve your response, right? And keep your customer engaged. I'm a stickler for spelling in grammar and it really, really peeps me when I see a little Z at the American spelling on a lot of official communication channels. Now prior to today, Terry, I haven't actually been thinking about customer feedback as a communications exercise, but just in the last 10 minutes, you've changed my thoughts completely. It's 100% a communications exercise. Timing is a big part of getting communications right. How would you, what are your thoughts on timing in terms of feedback when you get it, and when you respond and how you respond? Yeah, simple answer to that as soon as physically possible. So that may not be practical for some types of businesses in some sectors, but where possible we'd like to connect to sister, I'm sorry, not ask, but what you should be doing is connecting to backend systems that can effectively and automatically trigger the process of asking your customer for feedback. So as an example, if I go into a retail store, I might be a Maya one member for instance, I make a purchase, my card is scanned, and then almost immediately, and there's some delays on this, but when I would say immediately, within the hour ideally, a feedback requested automatically pinged, and hence this is driving some of that mobile activity as well in terms of people's desire to improve that the timeliness of getting feedback is also driving some of that mobile activity. But we see the response rates drop dramatically every 24 hours after the transaction or interaction with the business. So every day we leave it response rates decline. And again, it comes back to the higher response rate, the more data, the more value in that information. And we'll talk a little bit about the importance of customer recovery as well. So the quicker I can find out that a customer is unhappy after a transaction or interaction with my business, the more likely, sorry, the more likelihood I've got to be able to deal with that problem in a timely manner, recover that customer, and prevent social and word and mouth damage. So the timeliness is really important when thinking about surveying customers. A number of people are batch sending feedback requests out and that's okay if it's a daily or every other day. But if you're thinking about doing that in weekly, fortnightly, monthly, it's too late. I appreciate in some cases, you may not have a choice in it, but there's plenty of options around connectivity to CRMs or databases, accounting systems that can automate that process and do that triggering for you. It's a really important part of and an important consideration in any customer feedback process. I suppose on top of that, once you've gotten that feedback on time, the worst thing you can do is not act on it. So get that, ask for the feedback in time as soon as physically possible, like you mentioned. Once you've got that, don't ignore it. That's probably going beyond the scope of today's conversation. But just back to the point about the, as physically soon as possible, a lot of companies I know have gotten some automation in there and they're able to like get these triggered as soon as possible. You gave the example of going to a retail store, making a purchase and getting a feedback request within the hour. What are your thoughts on those automated systems where they can get it instantaneously? Well, that works really well. And again, is that in the moment, capturing the customer in the moment. And there's different examples of that and being in a restaurant and having a feedback card on the table where you can type in a URL or scan a QR code is a great example of getting a customer in the moment. And you're right, Daniel, in terms of is how you deal with that as well. And being able to deal with a customer problem almost in the moment too is a fantastic way of doing it. And just, you know, even on cases where it's a little bit more difficult, retail is a really good example where you completely understand that a lot of retailers will have a transaction with a customer and have no idea who that customer is. And then potentially no idea whether that experience was positive or not. It's really easy to do. Most post systems allow the capture of email addresses or phone numbers. A perfect example is JB Hi-Fi and, you know, the way they do it these days. So they ask for mobile numbers for every customer and they SMS a receipt to every customer now. It's a really simple process. And their excuse for doing it to the customer is quite often that those printed receipts, you know, they actually wear and they fade. So when you're keeping a receipt as proof of purchase and for warranty purposes, quite often that becomes a bit tricky in six months when your receipt's completely faded. You can't prove the purchase. So their excuse is we now text that to you and you've got it for life. Brilliant, you know, really simple, but it builds a customer database. It allows future marketing, but also importantly, it allows for the ability to do things like get customer feedback in a very timely manner. So that kind of in the moment thing is a great way of doing it. That is good thinking. Now, is there a risk that people would say, oh, hang on a second, I've got this instantaneous request for feedback. Clearly it's automated and clearly it's not for me because we were talking about the whole personalized questioning before. Is there a risk there? No, not really. As long as it's personalized, you've got someone's name, you know, obviously it's a simple process to personalize the SMS or the email that's going out. Again, the language use is really important just to explain why we're doing it and the actions we're gonna take on it. And we talk a little bit more about closing the loop later on and because it's the end of the process is really important as well. But we never see a reduction in response rates or participation rates based on somebody getting something instantly or very soon after an event. It has the opposite impact. It goes up. All right, okay. Well, this is what you were saying before, right? As time goes by, response rates go down. Must be, I must just be the only weirdo out here because for me, I'd think like, well, hang on a second, this is automated. It wasn't for me, it's probably just me being an idiot. But so we talked about getting the channel right, getting the tone right and getting it done on time. What other factors influence response rates? And can, is there something businesses can do to increase those response rates? Yeah, so it's all those things we've just mentioned but also incentivize respondents or customers to leave feedback. Be surprised how effective that is or can be I should say, not all incentives work and we have to be mindful about that. As an example, and we had this very conversation with someone recently actually, it was a chain of cafes that specialize in coffee. And they wanted to incentivize customers with free coffee if they gave feedback. Great idea, of course, you know, makes complete sense. Relating the incentive to our product is a good way of dealing with that. And of course the cost is lower as well. The challenge with that is that if I had the coffee and actually I didn't like it and my feedback was negative, the last thing I want is a free coffee. So there's consideration around what incentives to offer. Need to be mindful of that actually. So I know it sounds a bit ridiculous but it's actually quite true. So monetary incentives is always a great idea. Prize draw type stuff, you know, people will love a cash incentive. And certainly the amount makes a bit of a difference but it really drives response rates. We see upward of 20% in some cases more improvement in response rates if there's an incentive attached to it. And please don't misunderstand me here. There's a big difference between offering incentive for a positive response versus an incentive for all responses. So, you know, the former being a lead so definitely do not do that but offer an incentive for everyone that responds and the prize draw entry or something like that works really, really well. All right, so it's probably some of those things that make a whole lot of sense in hindsight but when you're just in the rush of getting through your business you might not give a lot of thought to it. Can I just say I've got a little pop up on my screen that says my laptop battery is running low and I haven't plugged it in. Can I get you to talk about the next bit which is the transactional versus relational feedback? I've got to go and get a little power plug. I'll probably won't be able to ask you any meaningful questions about this particular topic but I'll leave you with the audience for about five minutes please. No, no problem. Hopefully it doesn't die in the meantime but yeah, the transactional versus relational feedback is actually quite an interesting one and transactional is probably quite obvious again and using a retail example where somebody goes into store, purchases something and gets a feedback request after that. So it's very transactional kind of a one-off contact with the company and the customer. What we're seeing more and more of and it is quite important in some industries and to give examples of industries where this is relevant, home builders, real estate, mortgage brokers are three good examples. And to give you a relevant case study I guess in terms of how we can deploy and have a relational feedback program in places is home builders where there's quite a lengthy time between the moment a customer signs a contract and takes ownership of the building. And in fact, the contact doesn't stop there. It goes beyond that because most builders have what we call a maintenance period which is two to three months after build. So there could be six months elapsed between the time a customer deals with us versus the time they stop dealing with us. The biggest mistake in that example is to ask for customer feedback at the end of that build process. Because the reality is if a customer's had a bad experience and they're upset, it's sometime during that build process. So it's really important to implement a relational program where we're touching base with the customer on a regular basis through that build process. That allows us to identify as a company where there could be weaknesses and things falling down in that process that we can then obviously change and improve on. But importantly, we can understand the customers, sorry, when the customer is unhappy and deal with that in a more timely manner. Because the last thing we want is a customer becoming unhappy after a month, telling the world about their bad experience before we as a company or as a brand get to know that and have the ability to deal with it. So having a relational system in place work really well depending upon the industry that you're in and the relationship you have with the customer. Right, that billing example is sort of similar to your coffee example from before, right? I mean, if you get it wrong, asking for feedback or giving the wrong incentives can feel like a bit of a slap in the face to the customer. Hmm. A spot on, absolutely right. Not a risk you want to be running. I don't quite understand what you mean by the last thought point we've got on the slide here. Closing the loop, can you explain what that means? Yeah, closing the loop. And you kind of mentioned this earlier on in that it's not just about getting feedback but how we deal with it. And that's really important. And there's a couple of different options here and something that's really easy and often overlooked is responding to customers after they've provided feedback. If we ask customers to give us some time to provide us with ratings and, you know, textual comments around their experience with us as a brand, there's nothing more frustrating for a customer just to be left on a landing page that says thank you very much for your feedback. We have no idea whether you as a company or us as a company are doing anything about it. Care, especially if my comments and my experience has been negative. So it's a relatively easy process and again can be completely automated but can be made to look very personal and authentic. A simple automated email that's sent out after that process doesn't have to be immediately because clearly that's automated but built in delays where an email is sent to the customer with a different response depending upon the rating that they've given, which is a simple thank you very much. We really appreciate your business and your feedback and whatever message that you want down to really appreciate your business. Thank you for your feedback. We apologize that things didn't go as we would expect. We will contact you in the next 24 hours to deal with it. Lots of different ways of responding to the customer and importantly keeping them engaged and making them feel that you care. It's really, really important and not something to be overlooked. Too many programs, customer experience programs fail in this point as well as then taking action and dealing with a customer complaint. Also very important. So that's what we call by closing the loop. Closing the loop. So acknowledging the responses you've been given and then also taking the appropriate action at the right time and letting the customers know that this is being worked on. Yeah. Absolutely, because also just to give you a stat on that, around about 50% of customers or respondents do not believe that their feedback goes to anybody that can actually make a difference. You know what? It makes me feel that way about some of my service providers like my telco or my internet company. I just feel like I'm just a fear to them. I'm just one of the millions of people they serve and I don't know if my particular comment means anything to them. Yeah, you're right. Well, I think in that particular case, so you're absolutely right. So if you're dealing with a bank or a telco that has millions of customers in some cases, I understand that it can be quite difficult for them to deal with individual cases. And now using the feedback as an aggregated response to understand, you know, to kind of get a gauge on customer experience and where things are failing. But in most businesses, in 90% of businesses, we're not that big. And we do have the ability to deal with individual customer issues. And if you can, you should. And we'll get onto that in a bit as well in terms of why you should. But it really is important to kind of have a major impact on your business, both negatively and positively, depending on how you deal with it. Yes, you're right. Well, why don't we talk about that now? Normally, we'd sort of start with the why and then zoom into the how. But we flipped the program on its head today. We've started with the techniques and the hows and what you need to get involved. But let's zoom out for a second and think about the bigger picture. You know, why do we need customer feedback? Yeah, the reality is we have choices as customers, whether we're B2B customers or B2C customers. If we're looking for an IT company to fix our computing equipment in the office or accountants or lawyers or marketing agencies, or if we're a consumer looking to get our car fixed or a haircut or a plumber to come to our house, we have untold choices about where we can get our services and our products from. The reality is most of these people do pretty much the same thing. A plumber does the same thing. Their pricing is pretty much the same. We now make decisions based on the service levels we receive, the experience we have with companies. It's really important to know how we service our customers and the experience they have. And again, we'll come on to this in a moment in terms of voice of the customer, the word of mouth importance, the online reviews and social media. The issue is that as customers, we do not complain. We actually just vote with our feet. We have a bad experience. We go somewhere else next time. We don't bother complaining on the whole. 86% of consumers do not complain. They just go elsewhere. So we do have a bit of an attitude here in Australia, especially where, you know, should be right or customers that my customers are happy because they're not complaining. We just don't know they're unhappy. So it's really important to proactively seek customer feedback and not rely on people coming to you. So that's why we need a customer feedback or one of the key reasons why we need a feedback program in place. That's a really good point. And I think for the first time today, I'm feeling like part of the majority here because I definitely identify with that 86%. I don't, it's similar to what I was just talking about a minute ago, but I don't feel like my feedback would count for much, at least for the big companies that have millions of customers. So again, I'll just vote with my feet. One question I've got relating to the current coronavirus situation and how everything is changing and businesses, organizations, government departments, individuals, we're all moving into a time where things are uncertain and there's so much change afoot. Normally we talk about the importance of customer feedback in terms of being able to provide insights for business direction or for organizational decision making. What's your take on this whole situation in that neither customers nor the business really know what's happening and it's uncharted waters for everybody? Yeah, it's a really good question, of course. And we're all kind of learning through this process. And we'll talk a little bit about some case studies later on specifically around what these challenges we're facing today can mean to our program. And in fact, I can address those now, Daniel, if you'd like me to, but I think the importance with customer feedback is that quite often it's these kind of relational transactional things and our business is fairly stable in terms of we do the same thing every day, day in, day out. Today, that's different. And as businesses, we're all having to change and adapt. And there's some really good case studies that I can share that we know of where the business has had to adapt is customer feedback program accordingly and why it's so important. And I think there's some, even if you think about Redback, obviously, the organization that you work for and is putting on this event today is a great example of that where a very good business, very happy customers, you proactively seek feedback from customers, but in the time of COVID-19, you're one of the very fortunate companies that's experienced unprecedented growth. Now, that is a great position to be in and a lot better position than many organizations right now, but clearly that comes with significant challenges. And hopefully you won't mind me sharing those, but coming with significant growth means that you're not equipped properly in terms of manpower or person power, technology constraints and really stretching the business to a limit in a number of different ways. So ensuring that you're continually getting customer feedback is critical at this point in time because yeah, great, the financials may be looking very, very positive, but that could be a short lived experience if the customers are finding it difficult because they're not getting the level of service or there's technology issues with their conference and video calls. So it's really, really important for you to be more proactive in that process. I am conscious of time, but another great example is retail. So a lot of retail stores are closing now, but a lot are moving their business to more online focus of course, contactless delivery, challenges with that. The online experience is nowhere near as exciting and interactive for customers, but some of the other challenges are now some of that processes out of our control. We're relying on third party logistics companies, for instance, we're using food delivery companies for restaurants and there's issues around who's responsible for late delivery, the food's arriving cold, is it the restaurant, is it the delivery organization? So where things start to get a little bit and how do you control? It's even more important to continue feedback and ask things in a different way and maybe adapt your questions somewhat differently. And the third example that I wanted to share, which is another great example is gymnasiums. So the fitness industry generally is struggling of course and government legislation has meant they've had to close their doors, but for some gymnasiums, they've adapted very quickly and very cleverly in that they're doing things a bit differently. So they're now live streaming classes, they're doing online personal training, they're having to communicate with their members in a very different way. Again, not ideal for a lot of their members who are paying a lot of money for these memberships every month, but it's really important for the gymnasiums in this case to ensure that they're continually checking in with their customers to make sure this is actually fulfilling their needs and that their experience is positive. Because again, if it's not, they'll just end up canceling their membership and that has a massive financial impact on businesses. So it's not necessarily about, certainly in most cases, absolutely not stopping the program at all, but adapting it to the changing times and making sure you're covering different parts of the business which you might not have been doing before. So hopefully that gives some examples of how feedback is really important in these challenging times. Yeah, absolutely. So the takeaway there is to take your customers with you on this unknown journey. That's the takeaway that I'm hearing from you on this one. That's really right. Okay, so we've got about five minutes left on the program, so being conscious of time, let's go to Q&A. We've got a couple of questions that are coming through. And of course, a quick reminder for everybody joining us online, please you can join the conversation, ask a question to Terry. It's the dark blue hand icon at the top of your screen and get it submitted and it'll come through on this secondary screen I've got. First question comes from Jerry and Jerry is asking how do you deal with negative customer feedback? Really good question, Jerry. And every company is a little bit different in this of course and their abilities to do it. You know, from someone that is in the industry, it's easy for me to say that you should be dealing with negative customer feedback and not just sweeping it under the carpet of course. And it does come down to the fact that negative feedback isn't just gonna affect that one customer in terms of their likelihood to use the company again. Is that we know that on average, one unhappy customer tells 15 other people about their negative experience. Whether they're telling people in friends and family through word of mouth or jumping on to online review platforms and social media platforms. But dealing with the customer feedback, negative customer feedback to bring that customer back in line and the repeat customer again is actually really important. And let me try and put that into some quantitative figures. On average, we see that companies on the whole have around about 20% of unhappy customers. That's on average, every industry is different of course. So if we can recover and make a quarter of those people happy again, just multiply that and so multiply your number of customers, let's say 20% of those unhappy, we're gonna recover 5% which is a very conservative number by the way. And you know, you should be looking for more but just multiply that amount. So your average sale price by the 5% of customers that you can recover and on the whole, that normally means quite a large amount of money. So you know, just responding to those and dealing with those in a timely manner may absolutely create more work, may absolutely incur some more costs internally in terms of having the personnel to do that, but it will on the whole pay for itself many times over. And that's just in terms of recovery of customers, not the impact, the positive impact it has on online reviews and word of mouth, because that customer is more likely to use you again, more likely to pay more for your service, more likely to leave a positive review, which by the way in terms of monetary value, a one star improvement in online ratings represents between 5% to 10% revenue improvement. So significant numbers if we're dealing with customer feedback properly. Makes perfect business sense to me actually. Thank you for that question, Jerry, a really good one. The next question comes from Mike and Mike is asking, how do you combat feedback fatigue? Really good question as well, Mike. And you know, it is important to not to over-survey your customers. The incentive helps with that by the way and we talked a little bit about that earlier on of course. So incentivizing people to respond. Nothing frustrates me more than, you know, I hate using brands. In fact, I won't even mention the brand, but you know, I fly a little bit. I'm Queensland based and I fly quite a bit. And there's a particular airline I use quite often where I get a survey every time I fly. Now that might be twice a day or once every two days or whatever it might be. But there's nothing more frustrating than getting a 20-minute feedback survey, you know, twice a day or every other day. It's infuriating. So there are controls that are in place that prevent that happening. So exclusion periods, as we call it, you know, only provide people one survey a month, for instance, depending on the industry you're in, make sure you incentivize them, keep it really short and engaging. That prevents survey fatigue. Yeah, yeah, I'm just thinking, I'm getting fatigued thinking about that situation that you were in. It's not like that's happened to me at all. Thank you for that question, Mike. Probably got time for one last question. This one's from Mitchell. We have a customer feedback program, but we've been asked to review costs in this climate. How can I convince management to keep it? That's a good one. It's a very good question. And sort of touched on this a little bit early, Ron. Completely understand, and all businesses are obviously reviewing their cost structure right now, rightly so. As I mentioned earlier on, a customer feedback program that's implemented well and working well will pay for itself many times over. This shouldn't be considered a cost in the business, it's an investment to the business. I know that sounds very salesy, and I do apologize, but it's the reality. There's a reason that the big companies all have these programs in place, enormous value to it. I've mentioned the ROI in terms of customer recovery, the ROI in terms of improving online reputation through reviews, et cetera. I completely understand if you're a restaurant and you've closed and you don't have any customers, you've got to review those costs and turn the service off maybe. But for a lot of businesses where we need to carry on and try and keep business as usual for our customers, it's even more critical that we keep our customer experience programs going because when we get through the other end of this, we're all gonna be scrambling for our customers and building our business again. And it's really important that we've got a foot up through understanding what our customers feel about us. Yes, thank you very much. Great question, Mitchell. Thanks for that. Now that does bring us to the end of the show today because we've hit the time limit. Thank you very much for your insights today. Terry Wiley from Jago. Thanks for being with us. Absolute pleasure. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Really appreciate it. Thank you guys. Yes, I'm sure everybody has gotten heaps in terms of insights as well. And of course, before you go, we'll be redirecting you to a survey page. We practice what we preach here, of course. So please... A feedback survey, of course. Yeah, it's fancy that. Please be so kind as to give us your thoughts and comment on your way out. We'd love to hear from you. Don't be afraid. Give us your feedback. And of course, thank you once again for joining us today from across this beautiful country of ours. Please, wherever you are, stay safe, look after everybody, and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Red Bag Business Skills Show. And until then, it's goodbye from now.