 law is before the protests against the authoritative change and your translators will be Dimi so you can give us feedback on Twitter using the hashtag C3T so starting now there have been a lot of very questionable laws within the last years of which yeah if you if you sacrifice your freedom for security you will lose everything so we don't know so now we have Laura Pühler and Johnny Parks they are going to tell you about what we have to do now to stay free yeah hi and welcome to our presentation about the new police laws I am part of the well against a group against the German police law I'm Johnny I'm also from the beginning against so the well collaboration against the Bavarian police laws so and when organizing the first big demonstration against German police law we get to know each other there were more than 50,000 people in Munich going on to the streets which is a really big number for Munich there hasn't been a big such a big demo for decades in Munich and in Bavaria the data protection data protection people were very important partners from the beginning onwards and that's why we want to talk to you today because the police laws this topic and the security safety laws and increasing so-called security and actually yeah that's that's relevant for for us like which is the anti-fascist movement for Johnny its anti-racism and climate catastrophe movement and also the movements that meet here because for our movements this is something that is a huge threat to all of us and we would like to talk a short to give a short overview what we are going to do now and Johnny will tell you briefly what the Bavarian police law actually is and why we are against it and how the protest against it went I'll then put this into a bigger society context to ask the basic question what is actual what's actually happening there and why do we have this development to more and more laws that increase law enforcement's powers and Johnny will give some shocking examples for that what will happen what will happen if those laws increasing coming and there will be more and more of those and finally I'll give some some advice how we may continue working to make to make our movement still possible that has been very loud last year and but it's now like it's slow so I'll start and so we call that the thing of the pack so PAG which is the abbreviation of police of the police law in Bavaria in Bavaria yes so it's the law for the for what but police has to do yeah and I'll start chronologically so in 2015 what when none of us missed was the debate or this escalating debate of about refugees coming to Europe that has been that has been led to loss of control for conservative power and police at least that's what they felt and the CSU in Bavaria actually felt that they are losing their power and so they want to restore that and this is why they told us that they will have a political offensive against right-wing parties and then in 2016 this feeling grew even more because you had the terrorist attack in Munich in shopping center and another one of the well Christmas market on Berlin in Berlin and then the CSU in Bavaria so that's a conservative party in CSU is a conservative party in Bavaria so they used this act this terrorist attack to achieve their aims because they had the fear of the people on their side at that point and well and so the the law for integration is for how so called or like supposed foreigners have to behave and so you would they actually wanted to to write into law how people have to behave if they seem to be foreign and then we had the first novel of the police law which is about so-called give theaters which means like threatening people so until now you need a concrete danger to to start investigations into things but now things start so this is in 2017 so it's not enough that you have a concrete danger but just the well rather vague assumption that there may be a danger coming up it's just if you if it's if you if you may be dangerous that's that's now added to when they can start to when they are able to start investigation just on those very vague grounds and that's when it started that also lawyers started to listen to this and look into this law and criticize it because they said yeah that's a very big term you can't use it that way this this law also enabled the police to make to put people into a preventative well arrest and actually this can be you can be put for three months into jail and then a judge can even extend this arrest for three months forever so they can every three months they can prolong it so actually you can be in jail forever without ever doing anything you're also have you are not allowed to contact people you're not allowed to be in certain places all of these were powers given to the police in 2018 the second reform for this law was made so now I'll give it an overview again no that's a wrong direction okay so now so so police have more powers more tools more things and before something actually have happened and you have less power to defend yourself against those things by law and no thing is you have you have to report regularly to a police station you're forced to give your identity away and to present your identity to prove who you are to go to jail if the if the police wants it and of course the police is allowed to decide without a judge they can do the police can do this and they can also walk into a people's without judges warrant and without the consent of the people they can go into flats and houses so it's possible to electronically surveil your home you can use secret undercover police officers you can do online searches and seizures and so these are just some examples what the police is now able to do without a warrant and as the police acts racist in many cases and many people that are affected are refugees so from the start that is actually we can see a very racist intention and so that's why we had a lot of protests against this and this led to a mass movement again for for Bavarian consular Bavarian reason in Bavaria that was a mass movement so and there were several groups moving together so for example who was part the German okay so German weed group several trade unions anti-fascist groups refugee welcome refugee groups young students and all of them met at a place of the of the police also the ccc lawyers data protection officers journalists journalist groups and some and many parties so that's a rather broad movement against this law the reason why so many people get together for this was of course personal well personal effects on you and fear that were two big factors so data protection so no one actually wants that the police can come through your data unrestricted leave so I don't have anything to hide is obviously bullshit because you don't know maybe you have to hide something or want to hide something and drugs of course haven't been that irrelevant for young people and for politically active people political freedom is very important and so it says that you have to be you want to be active without fear of political repressions okay so here you can see a picture of the mass of the people in Munich what actually also unfortunately a small part but unfortunately a small part but easy but at least it was a point that you have a that that people realize there's a structural racism against people and this is something they synthesize synthesized with and wanted to help them so now in 2019 the protest well slowed down at least in Bavaria and other counties it's still working other countries of Germany and others it's just starting in Bavaria we have the there's a commission called by the by the conservative party the CSU and which looks at this this criticism by the movement and this commission actually now just looks at the practical implementation they don't look at moral questions and what is a very frequent is that you don't have like people from civil society in there or even let you don't have affected people in this in this commission so they're they they don't they can't decide about that it's just so very usual German interpretation of democracy um and currently you have 10 court cases against this whole thing we will keep you updated but this and also that is against the constitution that this is this has to be taken back those changes um also in the whole country of Germany other countries get new police laws in a very similar style and similar manner except for Turingen and Bremen where there's no planned and there's no that they didn't say that they are planning to be Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Schleswig-Holstein and Hamburg, Saarland and Berlin and Sachsen-Anhalt are currently um thinking about it in Baden-Württemberg you actually have new police laws but after the CDU there they made a new actually new proposal and with more concrete proposals I took one example out of it so from the so they want warrant less searches on big events for everyone so now we have this PAC commission um maybe you follow that but they they even if you can criticize a lot of them they also criticize this commission also did a lot against PAC and so you have a new round of discussion and there will be a new law proposal let's see they they they will put remove some things of those laws so what is now our aim or our goal when we we what we actually want is that we can really abolish this kind of law and as a movement or as a co an alliance we see that it's not it's not enough just to have these two reforms of the police law being put away so this was this was just like the the last moment we actually should we could have protested much much earlier and because also the first reform of this law that we had just 35 people again protesting against this law in Munich so what I know what to do is that I talk a bit about the bigger context of society and tell you the political dimension of this and make you realize how important this is what these reform of police laws that we experienced for now is a symptom for and what this means if you look at the whole society and our idea of security now the state of things is this Germany at least from the point of view of the authorities and their kinds of categories is as safe as it never was this is the police crime statistics here where you can quite easily see that Germany is as safe as it never was since 1992 and the numbers of terror victims and worldwide and especially in europe is declining and of course the stepping up of these police laws is of course always justified with a presumed terror threat or threat of crime and the question we have to ask therefore is why does a society or why does a society need a society that gets ever safer need ever stronger security laws and I think the this is not easy to explain I believe and I will now follow the thoughts of two scientists whom you know may know Tobias Stingelstein and Per Stolle who have said that the only way to explain this is for economic social and cultural transformation processes that have been taking place since the 1980s and that these changes have fundamentally changed our relationship to the term security and these transformation processes are once of a structural nature for one thing a certain validation and internationalization of the work environment and of social situations and the privatization of state functions as well such as care for the elderly and also there is a change of an ideological nature we have the rise of the neoliberalism and a shift to the right and without going into the depths of those because there could be a whole separate talk about these but I'm sure they've heard this in similar debates the this all led to a certain social disintegration something that has been called a status panic the fear of every individual to lose their own individual status and sink beneath that status somehow and this what these authors call an existential fear is always there always present and that is permanent insecurity leads to permanent insecurity feeling of permanent insecurity and the result is that there is a shift in discourse around social control and the question how security can be safeguarded can be produced in a society and it's more and more about how we individually can assume to be safe our own individual securities has become the focus and we try more and more to limit or to delineate ourselves with our own status and our own security from that that could threaten all this and the aim of all that social control is to gain a completely new understanding of security and a concept of total security for the individual which of course can never be reached to put it very bluntly life is dangerous as long as you're not dead you're not safe and that of course has the consequence that the whole state practice of social control has shifted initially which I've tried to depict here it was more about concrete social conflicts and threats and violations of rights or of things that rights should protect so police for example would come and see what has happened and investigate so that in cases of suspicion of individual concrete crimes but with this new sense of security we more and more try to anticipate risks and regulate them and that in turn leads to the fact and I believe the new police laws are a good example of this leads to a situation where more and more we want to investigate ahead of crime before a crime has actually occurred and try to anticipate where the crime could take place where is there a risk and clearly a risk what is risk it's nothing but a statistical probability it's not something you can touch so to determine risk in some way or other you have to categorize the world into what is dangerous and what is not dangerous and that isn't just a time shift it is also according to singlescheine stolle a completely new way of looking at the situation of threat and of course this categorization into potentially dangerous and not dangerous it doesn't happen completely disconnected from from anything else it is influenced by people algorithms you know much more about this than I do I'm sure but in this categorization of the world into risks and non-risks all kinds of prejudice racism discrimination that we as a society have play a role and this gets transported into this concept and in addition to that we have a fatal link between three new developments and this is once the structural the erosion of the limits of police work state control new security laws because they can suddenly are suddenly allowed to investigate ahead of the crime they have new means then there is an extension of power which is not only existent in the state of north rhein-west failure where the police certainly are allowed to use tasers against potential and dangerous but also an ever stronger state control in the last decades this has fundamentally changed or strongly changed what we see as police responsibility is our state control such as alcoholism is now much more regarded as an object of state control or has become an object of state control to be confronted with poverty in the public space is more and more dealt with by security authorities and police forces and again you know more about this than I do in this context we have technological opportunities technological tools that we haven't had in the past and of course this risk logic leads when you find when you want to find all kinds of risks and want to live in total security this leads to ever new risks being discovered or having to be discovered and this discovery of risk leads to new risks being produced and the best way to discover these is to have a data set that is as large as possible and that of course leads to a an insatiable thirst for data that the state control institutions have and in the worst case it leads to surveillance without cause with very vague preconditions for intervention such as the threat of some kind of danger nobody knows what the criteria really are and and it has to be stressed again and again this can lead to intervention against people that have not committed a crime but against people who the state and the police assume that they potentially could commit a crime for example based on their political convictions their intentions their place their location their their skin color their religion now the arbitrariness of this is going to be shown by my other speaker my co-speaker but we have an extension of surveillance potential that from the democratic point of view can no longer be regulated and here is an article in Neues Deutschland by Rolf Gössner which I think summarizes it very well that was a review of the last year in police laws which I can very much recommend and he writes that with the preventive shift of police tasks and secret authorizations far into the area of suspicion or a possible danger the relationship between the citizen and the state is reversed the presumption of innocence one of the most important achievements of the rule of law loses its limiting function the human becomes a potential security risks potential security risk who has ultimately has to prove his harmlessness or her innocence now we'll come to some practical examples and firstly police raids okay you see here a lot of police raids data they happened in refugee homes in Bavaria in 2018 there is near near 2000 identity convictions and I'll get back to that later through the law of integration and I'm gonna talk about how this plays out in practice when the police enters a place they go into every single room and the inner ministry defines it at entrance as an enter and they raid they look underneath furniture they look everywhere inside the home the inner ministry stated officially that an entry is defined as that the police can actually really look at everything in this in this flat or room so they have no regulations or borders where to look at these raids usually happen at five or six am in the morning it doesn't matter if it's a family home or no just imagine having to tell your children why there is a man with a gun in the room all of a sudden in the morning and everyone has to get up and show their papers and what a suffering and anxiety that would induce and you can all imagine that and it's also not just 10 police police guys from the village no it's a police force of a hundred men um there's more forces being used more complex forces not just two or three guys and just imagine an adult person who's been a refugee and who's been on his way a long time and he's in his home and then he's exposed to a situation like that and like I could imagine personally that that would really suck and unfortunately I'm the wrong person to to analyze this but it would be very interesting to ask these people about how how that felt and there is very confusing um reports confusing reports result from that so a grandmother was reported because she slept with at the place where her children was but she wasn't like registered there so the only reason was she overslept at the place of her grandchildren that's it the article that makes this possible we're going to show it here is article 2333 of integration law you can you can enter any flat at any time if it if you do it for the purpose of finding people who are seeking asylum seekers they can arbitrarily enter every home with the suspicion of finding asylum seekers and that is not against the constitution there is protest from people who the protest from people who grew up here is seldom or not that broad so here there has been a protest of some so they are they have been by the refugees they made so the police said that the refugees were aggressive but civil people watching it said there were no there was nothing no violence but the the fire alarm was raised and then of course people started running away and then two hours later the police came with like water throwers and pepper spray and tear gas and of course real guns and looking for someone and so then the refugees did a lot like a press conference they wanted to talk they wanted talks and the minister of interior actually came but he didn't talk to the refugees but just with the security and so then they increased security in this refugee home interesting interpretation of democracy also in schweinfurt where the police said you had a lot of well riots i mean what do you mean by riots i wouldn't be very calm if you just have at five a.m. a group of police people coming into my home and just removing people from my home and then they put 10 to so that was the first case where they used this preventative arrest so they just put 10 or to 11 people they jailed them for three weeks without a lawyer so they were not allowed to to contact the lawyer and there was no there was no decision by a judge but and this law this police law says that there hasn't they don't need a lawyer which happens to refugees and of course refugees usually don't have a very good picture of the german law so what kind of rule of law is this if we if we take the law away from such uh very weak minorities um and and so and also you had this in another so the first in the first arrestments in other german countries were used against environment activists so they couldn't because they couldn't get the identity of those people when they protested and so then they just put them uh five days into jail which is clearly uh aimed at protest so maybe a climate justice will just will just fail because of new police laws because people will be afraid of going to jail um and this is also strongly against political activists and it is used to reduce their numbers so to make those movements shrink so this is used um and this is just power abuse to um because usually activists go to lawyers um to to have to to get advice but now they can't do this because lawyers can't actually tell you what is possible to happen because those new laws give such broad powers to the police now we have a closer example which is leipzig so there's a weapon prohibition zone in leipzig what is a weapon prohibition zone this is where everyone can be searched by the police um okay so weapon and so here the police explains what you're not allowed to have in the weapon prohibition zone no of course no occurrence of knives sprays axes but also not like you can't have and it says at the bottom it says and other things which means so be be careful if you go home tonight you don't you shouldn't have other things with you um that's incredibly ridiculous sorry wow a comment from a translator so now we have four thesis here so how can we uh how can we make a critique on this security so-called security mania um to to make to how can we create a critique for this that is really deep embedded into society um this was so for example last year the police the police talked more about even increasing more of this and modeling federal police law on the on the law in Bavaria so for us the big question is how can we continue so we have this PAC commission we talked about now it's a regulation from the police law um I think that there will be some like pseudo corrections and pseudo amendments but this like possible danger everyone can be can be uh well put in can be police can have suspicion about anyone and can arrest anyone so this will rise I think in 2018 this was discussed much more about this law this police laws but in 2019 that went back somehow but it's not just those police laws you know so with there was a lot of discussion about this law against hate speech and hate criminality and what what was supposed there was proposed there is actually very similar to those laws which are very difficult or like not very useful or very dangerous things how they can how dangerous they are for for people and are for our freedoms and they're very dangerous for democracy and now just for summing up I have four theses um what we can do and which we can use as a basis for discussion what we need it now the first thing is we need an immediate moratorium for all kinds of changes to our security laws all kinds of reform I think that as a society we're not um able to to get an overview in which kind of situation we actually currently are so this is something we should get very um we should really know and get very aware of so that we have a repriorization of what we think so yeah but the first thing is what people say yeah but you as an anti-fascist you want that the police well that they hunt down right extremists and so for that they need their means and they mean laws and they need powers and I'd say well if the state would stop uh just uh well uh annoying just small people who are who do hacking who take mariana and if they would stop uh well we're putting a lot of effort in those people they would have enough power and people the second thing the call for a total I believe that we urgently need to become aware in some form and we have to obtain the information to what extent we're actually being surveilled and what happens to our data and in our experience uh this really this this fear of surveillance of one's own data is truly a reason why so many civil forces went out on the streets onto the streets with us we believe that a total account of surveillance laws could politicize civil society on a wider scale and turn them against the authoritarian police laws my third thesis is that anti-racism training should become obligatory for us all it has been touched upon but we very much perceive that these laws are mostly mostly have the nature of extremely racist laws in 85 percent of cases these measures are targeted against migrants people with migration background categories that somehow are linked to these people and that turn them into so-called endangers and I believe that we all need a better view to exercise solidarity with these people and be aware what actually might threaten to come to all of us and that we should deal with racism and the last item that not only when it comes to climate change there are so-called tipping points that are threatening things that are irreversible that things that can accelerate so much that they can never be turned back and in our opinion the stepping up of the laws that are currently taking place are so drastic that it will take decades to reverse them and we believe we fear that we will reach a point where we will not be able to do this anymore and this is of course one thing that Katasha has kept pointing out we have to imagine what will happen with these laws if the fascist really should come at some point and should be sitting in government in Berlin so we don't just believe it's not just because it's good to raise a sort of so-called productive panic we need a interior politics that is suitable for our grandchildren not just a climate politics that is suitable for our grandchildren a politics that enables them to reverse the erosion of rights that is taking place now thank you thank you for this amazing deep dive into the history of the story we have quite some time left for questions so please line up behind the microphones in the room and be ready be courageous to ask these questions does the signal angel have a question from the internet yes i have three questions from the internet start with one please are there any recommendations what can be done to have these laws harden ever more step step step ever ever more well yes demonstrate organize organize within with your friends talk about the issues spread the information yeah protests protests against this and yes i believe that massive public protest the protest against the Bavarian law made the csu in Bavaria stumble it was a disaster that so many people went out on the streets and that wasn't the only demonstration that there was so surely can i add talk with politicians these are people too so we should talk to them number three please hello maybe you saw the talk about hong kong the protest there if not you definitely watch it because it's super interesting it's about the five demands that are appearing in the protests in hong kong which i find very interesting which we should also establish in germany so two central demands appear in hong kong one independent um place that is educating about police violence which we also should have in germany but the second thing i find more important namely that protests do not declared at do not get declared as riots so that the language about it will change one example would be at get 20 kept saying yeah so the the the protest well the rioters the rioters which actually he meant the protesters did you ever think about adopting these protest cultures because that's much broader than just focusing on police issues yeah well fundamentally yes and you have to be honest and say well particularly with these movements against police laws in germany we've reached a point where we are quite struggling to get networking within germany right and this is about the resources uh you know how it is with these movements if you have 10 people running a large-scale rally you know that's what the case is in july and germany too we are struggling and it is the case that we are trying to gain an insight into european states of affairs but also around the world and keep an over so keep keep kind of record and but yes but thanks for that hint i'm sure that we would love to watch this and we would be able to learn from that yeah thanks for the talk in any way one aspect that interests me would be in the beginning in the presentation you said that in the statistics that oh that the statistics is actually decreasing aspect that interests me would be during these laws is it the police that demands is it from the police side or from the politics side it is mostly the politics there are some voices from police but it's the politics that really have the influence and it has to be said some police people are listening to politics and they are more positively suited inclined and they seem that they may see a potential advantage for them and in my opinion it depends very strongly on the individual location i know that there are cities where the police presidents are very very interested in this pre-cop thing what is it well the interpreter knows predictive policing these are oh the computer programs uh where you can somewhat uh feed the data in and try to evaluate who is in danger and who is not and what are the dangerous places in the city or things like that you know what i'm talking about and some really are in love with this and this sometimes is something that a single person is striving for and on the other hand it depends on the police culture and i think police culture and the whole dynamic within the police force is a very different topic that maybe is strongly linked to all this and the question of police violence as well but we have tried to look at the structural issues because the other questions could fill another whole evening again more questions from the internet next question is there realistic hopes that the prgs are going to be disarmed in the near future and how can this be supported by individuals prg meaning police laws that's just the abbreviation used in one state yes there are alliances in every state against the police laws and that is where all the organizations come together that are against these laws and that's why you can look at the individual NGOs and see which of those suits you and yes i would say that no matter where you are located politically whether you're on the left where on the left you are you will find an organization that is active and then some work with police then there are the alliances themselves that can take donations and another option would be to look who is running a legal complaint against these cases because these are important things as well and they need support and money as well thank you very much indeed another question from microphone four hello it's trendy right now that many state actions are passed on to other actors like security companies or other companies and so to basically walk around the law with that loophole so you mean privatization of security yeah well yeah i'm not an expert on this i have to admit but it is a huge topic that more and more security tasks are privatized by cities for example and that these security companies cannot be controlled anymore i think that is the only thing i can say about it right now yeah well the refugees that i talked about from the city of donau wirt in bavaria have had have experienced a lot of violence from the security companies and of course the problem here is that is often one statement against the other and i can confirm that many of these security companies have clearly exceeded limits and violated boundaries when it comes to violence but it's always difficult because it's one statement against the other and these the effective people have far fewer far less rights than the police forces i want to make for number one i remember the bavarian um law about psychiatry which was very special in its own rights um it came to a they made it less strict but how how come that worked for that law and not for the police law well we did have a long debate in the alliance at the time the law that you just mentioned yes that is such a stupid thing they realized it quickly i think and many psychologists people in psychiatric institutions working there said that is just impossible you cannot take people that are depressive and put them in prison and there's there was a lot of nonsense involved there and it wasn't the case though that well this police law in bavaria was the pride of the csu the governing conservative party they wanted to really keep it and and not give it up and not lose against that protest and the big treasure this was supposed to be which they went into the election campaign with so they were very tough they even produced posters against our campaign a true bavarian will not go to these rallies and things like that thank you i think we have one more question from the signal angel correct we have the privacy violations on the side of the how okay how does it all go together well you don't really know do you not really i'd say it doesn't really go together uh yeah no it's it can't be brought into agreement and maybe the constitutional court in bavaria will be of a different opinion who knows microphone four please hello how is it you said that most mostly this is targeted against refugees but are there examples where maybe this law was targeted against people from the midsection of society so that i could maybe use this to explain it to my neighbor well the thing is we don't really know do we the one thing that we do know for example the use of the arrest or detention for endangers that is something we know through a parliamentary commission because in the case of the course of the evaluation of this law this commission was given all cases by the government and it has to be said that particularly the detention that many refugees experienced in schweinfurt in bavaria we didn't really learn of this for ages and it was very hard to get any insights and as an alliance we often through various journalists we uh we from the bavarian state broadcaster the public broadcaster we talked to them we tried to get in touch with the people that were being detained and it wasn't possible and they were disappearing in a kind of hole without a lawyer so this is a very special case but in generally we don't really know a lot and it has to be said it hasn't been enforced for such a long time i can say that we are trying as an alliance to collect all these cases the ones that we hear about and i would recommend to you to read up there was an article in tagus titan the left daily newspaper about a man that was regarded a left extremist endangerer and a journalist accompanied this man through his everyday life and reported what this really meant the fear of getting in touch with people in his social environment the fear of bringing them into the surveillance that he experienced and this is a really recommended thing to read and it was very impressive it showed very impressively what it means if someone gets into the focus of these measures and i would like to add very shortly the thing is why is it like this why is the center of society not affected at that much and that is what i was talking about it's about empathy it takes empathy it takes listening to people that are affected by depression it has been the case like in every day and the center of society from the point of view of a police person is a well suited german person not affected i know so many middle-aged white people that have never been checked by police i'm quite young as you can see i've had dozens of checks so that relationship is very unbalanced and that is something to keep in mind thanks a lot microphone number two you said in the beginning that last year the the wave of protest decreased a little bit do you know of any future protest or actions or do you know any explanation why it decreased or do you think that there is going to be more once it gets discussed again publicly or if there is going to be a public decision about it well it's the case with many things that public debates and and the numbers behind it are important we've had a demonstration short time ago in hamburg it is the case that in other federal german states the debate is currently kicking off about two weeks ago there was a rally in i forgot the place and it depends on how many people organize events and actions many people say okay it's the current issue and the issue that gets people to do a lot of action and the reason the motivation is to get a broad reach and the way to get that broad reach is to press the media and they care about what is currently going on and there were state elections as well you have to keep in mind and we are still working the alliance against the bavarian police law and what we have planned there is the european police congress every year in berlin and we'd like to have a counter congress and think about it in a different way and ask what we imagine a secure and good society to be and that is what we are planning right now and in munich at the moment on another level there is the z-core the security conference there'll be a rally there that's being planned and that is security and the exterior but that is very much linked to this whole complex as well and the question of boarding up the fortress europe which is again a kind of mania that expresses in expresses itself in the need for security that's a whole other topic to enter into but those are the next two things that are outstanding and in many other german federal states of course we are in our own little bubble in bavaria which is a very special kind of state but there was a nationwide rally against stepping up of security laws these things take place all the time and you can find that in social media we have a website as well where you can find this information and the other organizations have it too and we have a very active team with data protection people there as well who are dealing with this topic of a total account of surveillance laws many many thanks for this very profound answer we have one more question from the signal angel correct and one question well start with that one and france there was 2006 the zpe law where they demonstrated for days to to um to have it not allowed is it possible that maybe we just need longer demonstrations well look at friday's for future it doesn't it doesn't necessarily work it does depend on politics and the form of protest as well yes though the longer the more pressure there will be surely the more people the more pressure as well so that can help too right microphone number four thank you very much for the presentation and also for your very consequent work for your straight work have a comment on your thesis so i think if you want more education on racism and for human rights and you try to you try to attack these racist laws it leads and you you take a moral stance because these people are our there are allies so yeah so in frank friends there are demonstrations right now there are protests and strikes strikes yes many strikes so my question would be why is there not more political discourse about the strikes against these conditions well i do find it a bit difficult to make recommendations regarding racism yes that we should mention that but we can talk about various approaches uh a subject of anti-racism in school have a fantastic effect it will be very necessary and we can talk about different approaches of course and strikes what do you think well we were in munich we were in alliance when we organized the rally the demo and yes of course you can talk about various forms of protest but the question is at this point in time a rally a large rally was what really brought these actors together onto this to the same table and you can of course debate whether that was good to have all these groups there or not but at that time it was quite successful right and that was the form that we found at the time and what we had the capacity for and you may remember that we all tried to have a youth action the an education about deportation and it has to be said the power that we put in there didn't quite have an effect and maybe yes strikes may have to be established my personal opinion but it is difficult it's more difficult than going out onto the streets on a sunday right let's go to the very last question we are out of time a bit so please be short microphone five my question is about the concepts of surveillance could you explain that concept ah well you said some the open open to pandora's box can you talk about that yes i can oh that's great very very nice the total account of surveillance laws is something that the german constitutional court around 2013 used in the reasoning in a judgment against data retention and this was uh elaborated in other commentaries on court judgments and individual votes of judges that were against this judgment and uh the and it puts the obligation on the interior ministry to have this kind of total account for the case that data retention should be introduced uh that's telecommunications data retention that doesn't mean that it has to be introduced if others police security laws are being introduced just if telecommunications data retention would be reintroduced for myself that is not enough the commentaries and individual votes of the other judges were of a very clear opinion saying that it should take place anyway so much more many more than 30 individual legislation since that judgment should be evaluated in detail to verify and that is what the court mandated whether they cause chilling effects in society and deter from the free exercise of someone's fundamental rights we won't be as lucky as that to have this kind of a qualified answer thank you very much and a huge applause to our two speakers and i hope you've liked the translation you've been listening to