 And I don't pull out rubber chicken straight away. You know, I talk in let's say traditional models and languages first before I say, let's try something and then shift towards a more less verbal way of working. But when I work, yes, I have rubber chickens in my pocket but I wear a suit at work because that gets me taken seriously when you're trying to ask people to do something new is good to ask them in old words. Now to use the existing paradigm of the organization to make a case for a new paradigm. If they see the value, they will come to you and ask you like, can you help me create, Kim, I also want to do this. I also want to have a visual or diagram or live through this experience. So people will recognize the value. You don't have to sell it.