 Welcome everybody to July 20th, not July 13th as I hand so rudely posted the agenda for last week. So I fixed that this morning. Welcome to July 20th, technical oversight committee call for Hyperledger as everyone on this call who's been here before. We're all aware two things that we have to abide by the first is the antitrust policy. And the second is our code of conduct, which is linked in the agenda. For announcements, we have our standard Dev Weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday. If you have something that you would like to include in that newsletter, please do leave a link or comment, I'm sorry, leave a comment at the link that's in the agenda. And then any other announcements that anybody would like to make, I'll take that as a no. So for quarterly reports, we did get the cat day one that came in last week, the fabric one came in this morning or last night. I know a lot of you have had a chance to look at both of those. I didn't see any specific comments on either of those. For the Saututh one, Sean did address the questions and the comments that people had put in there from before. So if you did have a comment, please do re-review that report so that we can see about getting it merged. Sean did also tell me that he and Andy would work on putting together the upcoming report that's due next week. So we should see something coming in there. Any questions on the quarterly reports? On the Saututh one, I did see a lot of comments in the report. I didn't see any updates to the actual report. So I was wondering if we should ask them to update the actual report in addition to resolving some of the comments. Yeah, we could definitely do that. I noticed the same thing. Any other comments, questions? Okay. So for discussion then today, we do have the best practices for automated pipelines task force. But I did want to see if there was anything else that anybody would like to bring up as a discussion item today before we get to the task force discussion. Peter, you're on mute here. Sorry. That's one more discussion item for me is I couldn't add it to the agenda in time, but I wanted to bring up graduating, replicating, applying for graduation for CACTI. I know it's a process, but I just wanted to announce it that we'd like to do it. We'll finally do it and hopefully the TAC can provide some feedback. So this is my call to feedback. I know that we haven't filled out the document. I think there is a document to fill out. So I will do all of those administrative details so that everyone can have the full picture. But for now, I just wanted to say that for awareness's sake that it's happening and if you have any sort of comments already just based on what you already know, then I'm happy to hear those. All right. So a pre-check to make sure that there's no potential concerns that need to be addressed before moving or applying for graduation for CACTI. Any concerns that anybody has or any thoughts that would that the CACTI group should address before they do apply? I think it's great. I mean, this is one of the projects that has great diversity and so I think that's a good move. All right. I think they agree. I don't know. Any other thoughts, concerns? Stephen gave a thumbs up in Zoom, so I think that's a good sign. So Peter, it looks like at least based on the somewhat silence, it sounds in the somewhat agreement that it sounds like everybody thinks this is a good idea. Thank you. Then I shall work on the rest of the process and bring more details next week. Okay. Sounds great. We'll look forward to, I think there's a, I don't know, a poll request I think is where we're at at this point. I can't recall what our exact process is anymore, but yeah, it's documented. So we'll look to see that showing up here shortly. All right. Any other discussion items that anybody would like to bring up before we get to the task force? All right. I will take that as a no. So Peter, back to you to talk about the best practices for automated pipelines. Okay. I tried to book a meeting, but I still haven't been able to. Sorry about that. I do have updates there because I've been working on optimizing the CACTA ICI this whole time, not exclusively, but a lot of times has been spent on that. And one thing that I did come up with was for, in terms of lending existing CI jobs for every project is build dependency caching that we could very easily add to a lot of projects and they would probably benefit from it. Not as much as CACTA, but definitely a lot and the bigger your CI pipeline, the more you actually benefit from it. That's what I learned because for us, the build and the test execution are broken up into separate jobs so that there's more parallelism in it that can be done after the build has finished and so the core sort of baseline CI job that runs the tests is consisting of around 40 to 45 actual job definitions and there's one before those that does the build and that populates the build cache and if we use that build cache for the other 40-ish test jobs, then it gets around five minutes faster, which is adding up to 200 minutes. Yeah, sorry, it's early morning, but so that's around three hours worth of CI time saved just by adding caching and I know that we've been one of the offenders who use a lot of the CI time as shown by GitHub's reports and so that was one thing that I did work on and then the other one was the document, but the document is also just a draft yet, but there's definitely a big part of it there about build caching and also regarding trying to keep the scripts cross-platform even if even if you only run the CI on, let's say Linux, you should still try to have the scripts that are in the CI be able to run cross-platform because you will have developers on Windows and Mac as well, not just Linux and it helps a lot for them if they can also debug the CI locally. This is always achieving this sort of cross compatibility is always just an elusive dream because there's always something that not quite it's worked the same, but at the same time I definitely want to put it down in the best practice document that it should strive to have it completely platform independent just so that at least parts of it actually are and then the other plan that I have there ahead is to evaluate the possibility of an open source alternative for build jet that we could self-host so I was looking into that and came up short so the only way we could do that if we created it ourselves which is definitely out of scope at least for me because that would be a big big move shot so the the whole open source self-hosted build jet Fred I paused that for now and what else oh yes and what I plan to do is to actually book a meeting next week I have a list of the people who were talking about certain things I have the notes and so I will send out invites and specifically we should have an output of that meeting as a list of tasks of who would like to volunteer for what and so far I have Steven and Marcus and a room and and a few more comments from Dave and Rama yes so the people I just said will be on the initial invite list apart from of course everyone else because I will also advertise it in the group chats but I wanted to make sure that I named these people specifically because they were the ones who were engaged in conversation and then finally another little research topic that I've been working on great is CI is being able to run it locally with this tool called ACT which is hit or miss in the sense that some of the jobs that we have in the cacti CI it can run perfectly but then there's always sorry there's always little things where the obstruction kind of breaks down for example in the cacti CI we check if the build itself ended up modifying any source code or not because we don't want to build to change source code because then the whole thing is indeterminate and if the build changes source code and that should be checked in to get and so the script that we have that checks for this explicitly it's always or not always but usually is broken because when you run the CI locally you usually have changes that you're trying to test that you may not have committed and it ends up detecting that and then it fails with this false negative yes so that's that's everything I've done so far and sorry that I couldn't book the meeting until now it's been very busy but hope I'm really hoping that next week we can have a discussion and then have the tasks assigned and then by the next time we have we're up for discussion we will be able to provide person by person account of who had done what and what was the outcome similar to what I'm providing now but with everyone else who's also on the task force and of course now that I finished my little update if anyone has done anything despite me failing to book the meeting then please feel free to also give updates I can say that we have had very good success with the dedicated runners that rise it up for us I forget what they were called but it was not bill jet it was something else I believe so we might not need to invest that time in like a bill jet similar thing we might already have the solution there that being said I don't think we want to use that as a crutch and like just give it to everybody because it is I think a paid offering I still need to make sure people are doing their CI efficiently but I think there are other options that have worked pretty well and it's improved our CI time by a factor of 2x and it's taken the burden off the wider pool as well right the is right here are you here no I think okay all right then I'll take notes and I've just taken it down that I should ask right about what that CI provider of runners is called Peter you mentioned you had a document draft started somewhere is do you have a link for that that people can review slash add to no link unfortunately I mean I could technically just copy paste it right now because I'm looking at it right now it's a it's a copy paste to chat logs and a long bullet point list of my own notes so I could literally just post it right now because I'm looking at it it's just in my private note taking up that's on the computer okay but let me do that and then yeah sorry go ahead sorry Peter I was just gonna say if anybody else has any ideas about improving CI this would be a good time to discuss those as well I I will take any ideas on how to improve performance yeah we probably all know it but we did address some things in the best practices document so make sure to refer back to that and take those points forward as well Marcus so I was just thinking about what you guys did in the documentation task first to I mean create some kind of survey so we can reach out to the project maintenance to collect I mean their thoughts about this automation thing and I mean just also collect a couple of pain points people actually experience so that we basically learn a little bit more okay what are how the people are doing this at the moment what can go wrong and that we then basically have a nice collection and when we basically suggest hey look this is a way to improve that when some of the things Peter already mentioned that I don't know when you make an update to documentation the the build pipeline should basically realize that and does not need to run all the integration tests for instance I don't know and yeah if we can do something like that I mean maybe we can just discuss it's just a more detail next week in this session that's just something which came to my mind yes I agree I have notes about what you just said as well and a document as such is definitely part of the tasks or the list of generated outputs that the task force should have great so it's on the list and just need to get documents started and I'll make sure to invite you specifically for the meetings as well so that you can contribute all right thanks Tracy I'm not sure if this makes sense but one of the thing that one of the project that I previously worked upon where we tried to optimize was in terms of time a particular CI pipeline would take and in that aspect what we ended up doing is because the integration test that we used to run used to be it had other external dependencies and that whole process had to be queued one after the other and it used to be a long time consuming activity and what we ended up doing is unless there is an interface change we targeted specific integration tests depending on the file that is present in the PR and that saved a lot of time for us so resource was never a constraint at least in that experiment which I ended up doing but at least time was a concern and it helped us okay I'm looking forward to you also writing some words about that in the document room if you don't mind but it's also okay if you just want to explain it and then I'll take the notes sorry just wanted to conform because I saw a note on my zoom screen it said it lowered my voice I was I hope I was able to convey the message fully you came through loud and clear perfect thanks yeah rune I took that note as targeted integration test based on files in the PR anything else that anybody would like to add as things that they've discovered or best practices that Peter can add to the list I'll work on sort of brainstorming the things all the things that we've done in the various projects I'm involved to to see what we can come up with there's been a pile of optimizations and improvements that's done along the way other things like where artifacts should be published you know get have action you know should should actions produce what kind of artifacts should be produced how often should tags be created and things like that options on those we've we've had a bunch of things like that I I can't name them or it wouldn't be useful for me to name them off the top but I'll try to get a list of them as well and see how that merges with what you produce Peter thank you very much I'm almost I've almost published the page I'm trying to save the the conference page and it says unsupported character you can't save because the smiley face character isn't supported by your database oh it was a chat message that I pasted it okay okay so I created the document and I'll put it in the discord chat in a second the place where you'd expect it to be there's this task forces home sub page on the you'll see wiki so I put the link on the chat so if anyone has any comments later then please feel free to just comment on that page and we'll get it together all right thanks Peter anything else specifically on the task force that has come to mind well I guess this here I could just ask the people that speak up what would be the best hours for you to have the meeting I'm assuming it's probably going to be something like the TOC meeting itself just on a different day is that just it's optimal for everyone if not then feel free to speak up and we can we can work through it I've got a thumbs up from Marcus Peter you planning to do this weekly uh maybe now weekly maybe by weekly okay I think any day other than Monday and Thursday of course what's on Monday and Thursday okay that's you know the availability device Marcus is good with the hour Rama can be Monday and Thursday for this hour oh yeah but I think he said cannot do it yeah I was about to say I'm like wait Thursdays today and we have the TOC video first day okay that's uh that's a wrap then for the task for discussion task force discussion unless someone else has anything else to add Stephen I did see you come off here and go back on mute is there was there something you want to add uh I confess I was just looking at my schedule on this hour as a favorite pretty much every day in the week as I have availability or that you've already you're already booked they're already booked 7 a.m. is a favorite time oh I think yeah definitely I could potentially go earlier is there anyone else who could do 6 30 a.m. oh it's okay I'll send out an email and then everyone can submit their votes sounds good uh anything else that anybody would like to cover today all right so next week as far as uh task force discussions we do have the badging project life cycle Rama I think that's uh your uh leaving that particular task force um Tracy sorry uh next week I'm going to be at a conference and the week after I'm on location so sorry can you push this to take any progress uh sure we could do that um so then I think that uh we'll have to see what's next on the agenda for a task force we I know we were going to attempt to close out the security task force that we had going in and started new security task force so we might look at something like that um as the next particular item or we'll just figure out what uh what makes sense if we need to cancel next week we can always cancel um I know this is obviously summertime and and it's difficult with people's schedules so we'll uh we'll work that offline and figure out what the right steps are for next week thanks for letting me know that Rama all right if there's no further discussion today then we will close out today's meeting thank you thank you all right thank you thank you bye