 Nice. Shanmugam. Awesome. Welcome to Go. Thank you. My pleasure. How are you doing? I'm great, bro. I love what we were just talking about a moment ago before we started. We were talking about how we have accrued a database, a library of content on our YouTube channels and our books. About what enlightenment or awakening is. And now that can act as a resource for all of our other selves that are interested in this topic. And that's, that's awesome. And one of your books is titled the truth about spiritual enlightenment. And I love that. And I'd love to start things off by asking you. What have you found across your different angles on this theme to be awakening? The most important thing would be the freedom from the conceptual reality that people are stuck in because we grow up learning the language, learning concepts about the world. So we create a representation of the world inside us and we create beliefs about everything, including the person that you think you are. That is like a story, a story, a bundle of thoughts, emotions, memories, everything. We get identified with it. And no matter what we read, even when we read spiritual things, we always tend to take everything conceptually, another concept to save in the memory, identify with. But yeah, the first thing was in 2002, there was a realization. A realization of an understanding of what spirituality is really all about. It has got nothing to do with the books that I have studied so far in my life. I was memorizing concepts, you know, and maybe I sounded cool when I mentioned those words like, you know, Moksha, Mukti and Samadhi, things like that. But I didn't have anything in my experience. And the most, you know, like shocking realization was that it has got nothing to do with the story that I'm identified with, the story that I'm trying to improve, you know, that story doesn't even exist. It's like just a story, bundle of thoughts. So that was in 2002, I think it was like a glimpse, you know, realizing the possibility, the potential that relieved me a lot. Even though I still suffered much, I think that there's like an insurance or something, I don't lose anything. And then it continued, you know, for 12 years and after that it was like mind blowing. It was for me, it was like hitting a reset button. It was like that. When somebody hits a reset button on your brain, you know, you lose all the conditioning suddenly you become like a child. Everything is pure as if you're just born, you know, and you don't think about tomorrow. That's how it was. So it was, it has got to do with it. It is very simple. No concepts to remember, you know, no, it was not like, you know, it's a relief from a burden, lifelong burden, and it entirely changed everything. And I can say that it gave me a new vision and new strength, new strength to sustain whatever that happens, a new vision. And that also opened me up to endless possibilities, you know, mind blowing and beyond words like, you know, never thought as possible. Love that bro. So good. And it plays perfectly into the Pali, the Buddha teachings, where Nirvana is unweaving or unbinding or unfabricating. And the Papanka is the same, right? So you're not mentally proliferating, which is self, others, world, stories, all of that. And so then like the reeling back of the mental proliferation, so there's no fabrication, there's no weaving, there's no story. And it has been recently so like revelatory and huge shout out to Rob Burbea, and actually Frank Yang who pointed me to Rob Burbea in his book, seeing that freeze, meditations on emptiness independent arising. And it's really when we reel it back, reel it back, what is in innermost direct experience. And that's beautiful, bro. And, and it's also really nice because now we can, instead of getting stuck at one of the conceptual layers, like you said, which I think so important also, like, ah, Samadhi, and like getting stuck on on that. And a pranayama, anapanasati, like, oh, be mindfulness of breath, you know, and just like, you know, just like getting stuck with the meditator is still behind the eyes, you know, type thing. So there's all these layers that we can still get stuck in. And I love that that's great. So now from the place of awakening a realization where there's no story that's operating the show, let's say, it's more like the, it's like freedom, spontaneity, purity, childlikeness. Yes. Yes. Yeah, to talk about that for a bit like that natural state. Yeah. Yeah, it is like, you can see things in a, in a very simple way, you know, what many people struggle with, like, for example, I'll tell you just one example, maybe the fear of failure, you know, people do not try things just because they think that they will fail. And a lot of people don't do a lot of things in a don't do efforts, just because of this. And that is tied to the self concept of the narrative. When you don't have that narrative, you don't really have the fear of failure, you can pretty much do anything you want, right? So it is just like that, just like how a child, you know, learns to walk. It falls down, gets up, walks again. And it's fun for the child. But we, when human beings fall down, it is like, you know, they have to recover, they take a long time, you know, and there is a lot of rumination, a lot of stories going on in the head. It always happens to me, you know, and that reduces your ability to try the next time. But when you don't have such a story, when you are not bound by it, you can just do anything, you know. But initially, there was an absence of intention. Like, I didn't want to do anything at all. Like, there is no do nothing anymore. That's what that's how I initially felt. A lot of people actually have this question, like, you know, there isn't a complete absence of any intention at all, how to get over it. And it actually happens by itself, you know, you finally figure out because the demands, whatever life you're living, there are always demands that you have to meet, you have to pay your bills, you have to meet somebody the next week, you know. You have to actually do something in order to meet those demands. And you train your brain again, and it happens automatically. It is like, you know, training your brain to think about the future, to plan things in advance, to try to change things, even though you still accept everything as it is perfectly. You still need to change things in the world, right? So, these days, you know, I just like, I have very much adapted to that, very much adapted to planning, you know, doing some action. Because, you know, I have, I've been doing a lot of things which I never imagined possible, like going to gym, you know, working out and things like that. And it's all fun. I don't think about the results. And that's exactly how I get results. No, not getting fixated on where you need to reach what we need to become. So yeah, that's beautiful. It's very simple, you know. So yeah, and the focus for my, in my first book, you know, I mainly focused on connecting science and spirituality, how we can approach the whole subject in a scientific way. And it is possible, many people think that it is not possible because spirituality and science is separate, but we already have a field called psychology. The study mind, the body, and there was transpersonal psychology, which studies spiritual experiences and transformation. So I think, you know, that is like, that will be the next step in the spiritual, you know, what is going on in the world. We will make more scientific approach, you know, scientific way of thinking about this awakening. Because when it's thought about in religious way, there's a lot of confusion, a lot of misunderstanding clashes, you know, things like that. So that's the barrier for people who really want to transform their lives. So cool because you and I both are fascinated by the synthesis of science spirituality, which you could say is one of the core interests of the one because of God, because what is more interesting than the consciousness plus of spiritualism merging together, or science and spirituality merging together, or the psychology or the mind merging with the matter or the external the internal plus external, the comprehensive of creation. Right. And there's nothing cooler than to be able to synthesize those two. And I shins and young called it the centuries trillion dollar idea. And I very much, I very much agree with that and as you were listing transpersonal psychology, that's also a place where I got really excited around, like, yeah, maybe like three, three or so years ago. And that's a key entry point on the getting interested in consciousness from a scientific way. For sure. I love that you brought that up and I could even go and say that there will potentially be more ways to add to it by maybe calling it like decentralized psychology or universal psychology or something like that. And there's that and then I also in my first book high level perception authored a good chunk of it on the synthesis of sciences spirituality so again it's no, no. It's a perfect alignment for you and I to be in this conversation together and also that the way that we can basically measure in a sense the, let's say, the biometrics of like enlightened or awakened sages. We can see that the levels of rumination or the levels of story the levels of self are not present. And then we can measure that via egs and FMRIs and whatnot. And then we can take that and then we can leverage that as like a biometric biomarker for awakening. And then we can. Yeah, yeah, that type of thing too so there's a synthesis available there which is really important as well. Yeah, that's something that I have in mind that that is the idea that I have like you know so in the future, maybe in the science will find a lot of people record their brain state you know like how their brain has changed. You know, so that way we will narrow down the neural correlates of the awakening, what exactly happens in the brain and then we can actually have that as a way to find out if somebody has reached the same level of transformation or not you know, the same awakening. There is already a good progress, you know, in my book I have a chapter on science and spirituality. And we have some idea, for example, there is a book that I have written about introduced that book, which is about the left brain interpreter that is in our left brain. Left brain is a seat of language and there is a function in the left brain. It is called as left brain interpreter that creates the story. It connects past and future and it may tries to maintain a consistency. Right. And we need maybe you know we evolved it for survival because we needed that consistency because that consistency put together all the experiences. This is me. This is my past and I shouldn't repeat these mistakes in the future in order to survive. But we probably overdid it because in our times whatever that was scars, you know, that is available a lot. We have a lot of food and we have obesity. We have a lot of things in our story. You know, the story is very, very heavy. We have added too much to it and that is making us suffer and this left brain interpreter is what is responsible for the story. And yeah, we, you know, that is a very interesting topic actually. So I wanted to mention that something that has a good potential for doing more research on. I like how it can be as simple as we have added too much story and that makes us suffer. And then the neural neural correlates of the story making which you feel is in the left hemisphere. Yeah, yeah. Left brain interpreter is the word. The left brain is like there is a interpreter. Yeah, it is like, you know, it seems for me, you know, as I understand it seems like, you know, the left brain interpreter and then the prefrontal cortex and default mode network. It is a network in the brain. They all work together. The left brain interpreter creates a story. Prefrontal cortex uses that story to plan for the future to make plans, you know, to delay gratification and things like that. And default mode network is the network that gets activated when we are idle. So we get reminded about things that we need to do. And that is good if it is very little, like, you know, adding some salt in the recipe. You know, I use usually use an analogy like the salt in the ocean water and the salt that is required in a very tasty sandwich or whatever pizza, whatever snack that you like. So we have like, you know, just like having too much salt, we have too much of that too much of planning too much of agenda to do list and that has become very, very heavy, you know. So basically we are resetting the whole thing. The story is we are taking the brain away from all this identification and then again we have to train our brain consciously to do use the prefrontal cortex default mode network, everything in a very productive way in a much more, you know, creative way. It is like designing your own life. So it becomes an art rather than an unconscious way of living and suffering. That's very beautiful. Yeah. It is like you become the artist of your own life, create whatever you want. And one more thing is that, you know, when you are after this awakening the shift, it is like, you don't you have already found what you're looking for in life in general. So the ultimate question of life has been answered. What is there in this life, you know, what is ultimately I want this has been answered now you're free to take your time and do things, you know, without any fear. I mean, the existential fear or insecurity about what the future is going to be is removed. And that actually makes you more free to do things in a very efficient way. I can see it as a something which is very true because I struggled a lot when I was a child emotional problems, you know, like a lot of things rejection sensitivity and trying to be normal. That is one thing that I was struggling with, I should be like, you know, everybody else. And now, and that actually, you know, created a lot of problems in a performance, I couldn't perform, I couldn't speak, I couldn't social anxiety and things like that. But I ended up writing your book, starting a channel that I never imagined all these things as possible. And it is this awakening which gave me that strength, you know, when you forget about the story, the person that you are identified with, everything happens that is a higher power that takes over many things. You don't even have to worry about it. You know, so good bro. I love that. Yeah, we could say that when the the stress about self relaxes that higher intelligence we could say this infinite intelligence, more effortlessly, like Lao Tzu called it way this very effortless action this flow. It's so natural. Yeah. And then also, I love how one of the main reasons why that flow can really just be effortless is because like you said the ultimate question of life is answered. And that was the fire. You know, Ramana and Papaji talked about it like a flame under the ass that is fanned, but you know it's kindled. And then that I want to know myself, I want to know myself, I want to know my true nature, like the moth dissolves into the flame of the infinite singularity and then. So cool and then and then the expression of life from that perspective can then be whole, it can be pure, it can be in service to life awakening to itself. And yeah, that's the key thing and then another key thing you brought up which I feels really important is this. When we talk about the one infinite creator, we talk about it like a stylist. It's like the painter. And so become the artist of your life consciously instead of the unconscious programming. And so there's like a liberation from the matrix conditioning basically that is a huge awakening. And it a lot of it has to do with liberating ourselves of the patterns of conditioning of the matrix that have kept us asleep for so long. And so the classic thing is like 10 years ago, or 20 years ago for for people is you begin looking at well what is money. Like what is that yeah like what the hell is that thing who owns money. And another one is like, what is time. That's another big one. Yeah, so anyway these fundamental questions can create shifts like do I really believe what the media polarized propaganda. Why am I picking a side against another side that's in my same country or whatnot this type of thing. So yeah these basic ones can help you like liberate more into that like effortless free stylist of creation. And then another thing you mentioned I think so important is, did you say let me see if I can get this right so the left brain interpreter creates the story. Then the PFC the prefrontal cortex uses the story. And then the default mode network ruminates on the story. Yeah, yeah. It is like you know default mode network is like we get reminder is actually it is that is how it is supposed to be reminders about things that we need to do. The reminders are associated with the feeling emotion okay and that's what is bothering us like oh I didn't do it I mean I'm not, for example I am single I don't have. I have to find a girlfriend is something that you have to do but it comes with an emotion emotion of you know not being good enough or you know, not being something like that you know so everything has an emotional load. So yeah it is like all these three things work together but they are all overloaded the story is so big so heavy you know, and the prefrontal cortex is overloaded it can distract it can get distracted very easily and default mode network is also overloaded even when you're idle you are you are under stress when you're doing nothing you can't really do nothing. And people often find ways to escape this silence like they don't want to be left with themselves. They can't sit in a room without doing anything. They need a phone they need somebody to talk to movie or something like that so because they can't face the mind when it is not doing anything. It brings all the worries and anxiety and everything. Yeah, go on actually you're saying something I mean you're confirming I was you got you understood it right. I mean, this is so good. I was also just feeling into like more how you have identified this scientifically I love that like you identified more of the scientific let's say regions of the brain and activities of the brain that are what we talked about what Buddha shared as a Papanca this like mental proliferation. Yes, yes. And so, if, if if the left brain interpreter is this like explanation generation, let's say engine of sorts, then that can be like literally could be like Papanca might be like the left brain interpreter, like that explanation engine this mental proliferation and conceptualization of self and others and world and stories endlessly. And then there's the prefrontal cortex using all of that explanation generation to usually to try and get something from the world to feel whole, because it feels lack. It feels separation, location, etc. And then, and then, and then that rumination of the default mode network. You, you also set a reminder, like I like that to default mode network is such a reminder, like there's a moment of like, so not all of a sudden you're being like getting reminded about the past or getting reminded about the future. And then there's an, there's a proliferation that happens into those webs. And then the whole thing is to just like whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. Yeah, yeah. So cool. Because you know, there's the default mode network, there's actually a good thing about it. Usually it is thought of thought of as a bad thing in spirituality because of this mind wandering and things like that. But mind wandering has a purpose. If it is like it brings, like, you know, brings your attention to many things that you have forgotten about, even for creativity, mind wandering is a very useful thing. And it is like, you know, you, you're exploring everything that you know, and everything that you can expect. And with a little bit of what what it is it is useful. And since it is overloaded, you know, you're all messed up. And there is another paper written by Richard Boyle. You know, I want to mention this so that even people would be aware it is called cracking the Buddhist code that is a very, I'm very impressed by his work. Richard his name is Richard B. Boyle. The paper is called as cracking the Buddhist code, contemporary theory of first stage awakening. This might be of your interest. And also, you know, people who are watching might find this interesting because he has a, this paper has everything like you know, he has identified things which mark this transformation. And he has given names to it like for example, you know, this absence of reification, you know, and the sense of separation, the ability to live in uncertainty, because that is one thing that you get after the freedom. We have a lot of uncertainty about life. Why we are here that is uncertain in itself, but we are able to live in that uncertainty as if it is a play after transformation. But before this, the uncertainty looks very dangerous. People want answers to everything to escape from this uncertainty. But that is not the case after awakening. You can live in a state of not knowing how the future is going to be. Whatever happens, you can adapt to it. No matter what happens tomorrow, I am ready to, you know, flow along, you know, flow with the wave, like you're surfing in the ocean. So, yeah. Okay, so a couple things here. One of them is like you said that once we sort of reel back on the mental proliferation, and we have an absence of reification like you said, and like Richard said, then from there we can use the left brain interpreter, the PFC and the DMN in their good ways. We can use them in the good way. Yes, exactly. I think there is not enough awareness about this part, especially what needs to be done after awakening. Like, you know, many people actually ask about this one part, which is also mentioned by Richard Boyle, you know, absence of intentionality. That is a very important thing. The intentionality is completely absent. And this is somehow, you know, it creates some kind of, like, you know, other people are not probably they're not happy about what you're doing, you know, because everybody else thinks in a different way and you are not putting efforts to improve certain things because everything is fine for you. You accept everything. But then what you can do is like, you know, this, this planning, thinking about future, it is actually like a muscle. If you don't use it, it becomes weak, but you can train it again. But when you really train it and use it when you harness the power, it is like, you know, you have swallowed the limitless drug, you can do anything. Because all you need is time. No matter what you want to do, you need time. Like for example, if you want to write a book, it takes time. If you if you're spending the time without facing that anxiety, whether it will happen or not, what if it doesn't happen? What if it happens? My life will be like this. When this is absent, you can do your task, take your time. And it happens, you know, without any resistance or any kind of suffering that people go through. Recently, that's what I'm thinking about, like, you know, how to use it the best. All the resources that you have in your body, in your brain, everything, you know, a lot of people, they get trained to use those things because the brain, it rewires itself according to what you are giving the input, you know, and everything can be taken advantage of, including watching movies, people watch movies for entertainment. But movies as a if you're awakened, for example, movie has a different purpose now when you when you watch the movie, the movies is you to the forgotten world. What people struggle with, you know, different aspects of life, different aspects of the problems that people around you face. It actually somewhat, you know, it does something to bridge the empathy gap because empathy gap is a phenomenon. Everybody has it. Unless you and I have the same problem, I can't understand your problem much. That is called as empathy gap. It is a cognitive bias. And even though we say that awakening improves empathy, and that's because you're able to see things without the filter of your own ego. Still, there is an empathy gap. You don't really, we don't really understand how much other people suffer because it is forgotten story for people who are awakened. So these are the things that are not written about, talked about in our spiritual traditions. Maybe they talked about it, but they didn't write it down because it will confuse people. I don't know. But, you know, there are a lot of other possibilities for exploration in this field, you know, many things can be done. So yeah, it looks the possibilities looks amazing mind blowing. And rather than trying to explain things to people, we have to show them what is possible. They will be amazed. I love that. My gosh, so many good threads here. So one of the ones that just came up a moment ago is to read. I'm going to put the link to Richard Boyle's paper in the description of our video. And what I'm going to do right now is, and so people can read it because I found what you just said with sharing this to be so important. So let's go ahead and read, let's at least read the abstract of the paper to the audience. So Richard P. Boyle cracking the Buddhist code a contemporary theory of first stage awakening abstract. The theory proposes that what Buddhist call awakening is equivalent to pure perceptual experience, or the awareness, our perceptual systems would present to us if they acted without interference from our symbol processing systems. Two forms of interference are particularly apt to interfere uncontrolled inner speech, and the distortion of perception to fit reified conceptual structures. Controlled inner speech has been linked with hyperactivity in the default mode network DMN, which occurs when attentional demands are low. Reification occurs universally as children construct their own social reality from the culture into which they are born. So DMN and reification are products of evolutionary processes, trapping us in social reality and preventing us from entering perceptual reality. Research indicates that both sources of interference can be overcome through special practices and training. However, and people who have experienced first stage awakening report a pattern of features that is consistent with this theory. So if you guys can find in the bio below to read this. This is a great recommendation, John Moogham so good. Cool so I'll stop. Thank you. You sharing yes such a good one. And it's great to just even take a bit to read that together so. So that and then another powerful thing that came up was when in the absence of reification of the absence of intentionality, what comes up for me immediately is shunyatta emptiness. And it's almost like we we real the, the expression of life back word into its source, you could say into this black hole this void. But because we've now tasted that we now know ourselves as that we've maybe even bathed in it. But we're not stuck there, because emptiness is empty itself. So we're not stuck there we haven't reified again, the crown of emptiness to then be something. And from from there, we from there. So, say that there's no intentionality and intentionality of the stylist of the creator at the same time. So it's like the avoiding it's the avoiding of the void, but you but you've experienced both now you taste both now you are both simultaneously non existence existence non being being etc. And you you you are the entanglement of that simultaneity to superposition. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, excellent. Yeah, it's most important, like you shared a bit of go to it's about being like you want the beingness of that entanglement or that superposition you want the frequency or the vibration of it. And so to teach that is core is key. Yeah, Richard Boyle has also written a book, by the way, he has the book has a list of interviews with people, including Shinsen Yang the one he when you mentioned Shinsen and a few other teachers he has interviewed a lot of people asking about what happened in their lives you know how they view reality after transformation. And that is also a good source. I don't, I think it's, let me see if I can find that book, maybe I can let you know the name of the book. Yeah, it's called realizing awakened consciousness interviews with Buddhist teachers and a new respect the mind. And that's like you know he's done it in a very scientific way. And it is also something that can be it is like a database similar to your YouTube channel, you know, teachers of awakening explaining about what they went through. And then there is a textbook of transpersonal psychiatry that will be a good book if somebody is actually studying transpersonal psychology, you know. And that is actually a very good field maybe you know it is very promising it's going to be a promising field in the future in the next 10 years you know, a lot of people, we might have vacancies job vacancies and things like that that because it is a very promising field of study. And this is, I think this is the only textbook available for that field, it has everything document, you know, articles from many people including Ken Wilbur, and many people have done research on this. Awesome recommendations, those two textbook of transpersonal psychiatry and psychology and realizing awakened consciousness interviews of Buddhist teachers and any perspective on the mind. Awesome book recommendations also. I can put those in the bio also to the video I think that's great to have these on the bio. Nice bro so good. And I love another thing that you mentioned I think super important is the empathy gap. I love the body south of a vow is so prominent. Also, because the, in a sense the body south of a vow is the like your heart it's like the meta component is still so prominent, and it. And that is where you where you feel yourself as the totality, and you were with your paintbrush your stylist that you're drawn to express in a way that shepherds the rest of life awakening. So empathy gap, because otherwise, the empathy gap can grow too big with no intentionality. Yes. Yeah, and then we're. And then we're in a sense we're watching another self that is trapped in story, and then the pointing is to absolute, you could say. And, yeah, because it wouldn't have worked like for me 10 years ago no way, like an absolute pointing wouldn't have worked to snap me out of story. So there was just, yeah, there was the incremental dissolving of the story. Yeah, yeah. And the one thing is, you know, a lot of these traditions, they isolated from the social life, like for example, in Buddhism, people who were seeking enlightenment they renounced everything they lived in monasteries. And in one way it is like, you know, you're experimenting things in a, in a professional settings like for example, using a drug in a doctor's office under the supervision, you know, a lot of experienced people who have already went through awakening. You're separating yourself from the social life under their supervision you're trying out all the medication and things like that. And that is a convenient way, but the thing is it compromises on the social, the growth of, you know, how an individual can perform your performance and skills that is compromised. Like when you face the society when you pay bills when you go to work or when you are living in the society just like everyone else it is very different. You're training your brain to think like everybody else at least to some extent you're witnessing their problems. And yeah, in modern times it is very, very necessary because these days people don't want to go to monastic that is not a good idea either, you know, it is the best thing to do is just live your life and then bring these spiritual practices as the part of your life without compromising on anything, you know, your relationship, your work, everything should go smoothly. And that is a bit tricky because a lot of people complain, you know, about their spouses getting too spiritual, too meditative, and that creates clashes, you know. So, you know, maybe in the future, you know, with the work of a lot of people you might have a very efficient way of doing all these things, you know, monitoring exactly when science grows enough to study this more efficiently, we can document everything that happens. You know how their marital life is affected, how their performance and job changes, because it is like a double-edged sword. On one side, you're able to be in the present moment focused and do your job well. But the other side, when you progress spiritually you are giving less importance to all the materialistic things pushing for promotion, competing, you know, with other people and things like that. And that was a challenge for me, too, like, you know, after 2014 for six months, I even forgot why I was going to office. I was working in a call center. And it was like for six months, I went very deep in meditation. After finishing every call, the wait time, I was just focusing on what is going on inside me, how my body was moving, each and every impulse. And I was performing amazingly. In fact, there was a quality department which gave me a very good mark for addressing everything on the call, a complete call. But my sales performance was declining because I was not pushing customers to buy the product. It is like that. Inbound call center and I have to push. And usually people, I mean, the temptation is incentives, but I didn't care about incentives much or promotion or anything like that. I forgot it completely. And that is what will become a challenge for spiritual seekers these days, how they meet the expectations of other people around you. I think everybody else has a pride about you too. Your spouse, your girlfriend or boyfriend, your son, they are proud of you, even though you're not proud of yourself. I mean, that pride is doesn't, it doesn't have the same meaning anymore for you, but it does for other people who, you know, who. Yeah, so in some way there has to be some kind of empathy. We can't simply dismiss that as an unconscious behavior. It is just an expected behavior of everybody, you know, depending on the level that they are at, you know, the identification that they are going through. So, I think that will be the, you know, the next thing that can happen, which might benefit people. Yeah, this is cool. So a analysis of this first stage awakening and the way that it both let's say plays into the empowerment, let's call it empowerment and enlightenment. So enlightenment is the turn inward all the way. And empowerment is the exciting expression of life outward creatively. And so, so then, so we could have an analysis of first stage awakening enlightenment the turn inward, and the way that it affects the life outward in terms of potentially, let's say some in sometimes this decrease in like intentionality or like dry for empowered success must earn money and prove worthiness and increase self image, for sure, those things like tend to decrease. And what's interesting is with that analysis we can also see that the purity of the expression, when it does express in its empowered creative state is much less about wanting to get self image or wanting to get worthiness or validation, because it comes from a place that has no lack, and it comes from a place of wanting to shepherd the rest of life awakening from that body south of a vow. So I think that that's a powerful way of viewing it what we just got to this like analysis of the effect that enlightenment has on empowerment. That's cool. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, while we're talking. I'm taking notes. And I feel like there might be deeper collaboration or creation between us, where we hone in on this exact theme. And I'm seeing it come up more and more between the other selves that I'm getting tighter and tighter with is that we're honed in on basically like different angles on this exact theme, like the synthesis of scientific spirituality and whatnot. And it's an exciting feeling about creating with you, for sure. Yeah. It's me to. Yeah, it's amazing. Amazing to talk about it and, you know, move things forward in that direction. And it also feels like when these, let's say, two points in the table cloth come together from very awakened places that their dance is quite empowered and accelerative. The like exchange of symbols from an empty place is like really powerful. Yeah, yeah. Certainly. Yeah, with the interaction, you know, as you mentioned, you know, there is an uniqueness to everyone's viewpoints. They have it's all complimentary. And, you know, so it helps to get more clarity on this. I mean, how things of things are affected. Everybody has their own story to tell about, you know, what happened after awakening and, you know, things that changed their perspectives, things like that. And also one more thing that I want to bring up is the neurodiversity, the concept of neurodiversity. It is a very interesting concept because a lot of people that I have spoken with, they have problems like ADHD, autism, bipolar disorder, and a lot of people, and even Shinsen, he had ADHD. He suffered from ADHD and it looks like, you know, these things are not really disorders. It is just that they have some uniqueness. They are different. And I think ADHD might be very common among spiritual seekers. So we might even get clarity on these things. What exactly is ADHD and how we can, you know, help people who have these symptoms because it is certainly not a disorder. It is just that they are motivated because of things like novelty. If something is novel, something is challenging, you're going for it. And these kind of people are needed for society. They don't have a disorder. They just can't live like everybody else. They always are in pursuit of new creative things. They take risks. They get distracted very easily because a lot of things are interesting in the world. So it is not that they don't have a problem. They have a problem in paying attention. It is just that regulating their attention is difficult because a lot of things catch their eyes. And so it is like, you know, they have more, like, you know, they indeed have more potential. But when the life is like, you know, you're repeating the same thing every day, you know, it is not challenging for them and they can't do that job well. You know, I had ADHD myself. I just didn't know that it had a name for it. Only recently I realized that it is ADHD that I was suffering from. And it has misunderstood a lot. It is thought as a lack of attention, but it is more like, you know, you either don't focus at all or you're hyper focused. When you find something that you like, you just do it. I mean, without even, you get into a state of flow. So that is what happens with ADHD people. And yeah, that is like, you know, there is an overlap between these, the disorders in the spectrum and the spiritual seeking. They're always even allowed to ask questions, you know, to people if they were, you know, they have ADHD or things like that. Sometimes, you know, if it is relevant because I'm speaking to people a lot who have these problems. They have bipolar disorder, you know, or autism, things like that. Do you have any experience of, I mean, getting these like, you know, talking to people who bring up this topic, the same theme. Yeah, this is great. I love this topic as well. One that came up not only ADHD and bipolar, but also autism is another one. So it's this like you described already so well. There's a like there's a hyper activity around novelty and around becoming like masterful and and not fitting into the matrix at all. And there's the spectrum, I think, like we said is really important where there's very like you could say it can be really tough to be plagued by let's say ADHD or bipolar autism in ways that are non don't serve enlightenment and empowerment, let's say. It does serve it, which as on let's say the good side of the spectrum. I mean, the amount of times that I've been called autistic or ADHD or bipolar, I can already say for the last like 15 years I've been called or like diagnosed, and that every time there was every time there was something inside that was no, no, like, I don't need your pharmaceuticals like I don't I actually don't want to calm that down there's something about it that is so true about what's being activated here. And I just, I also yeah and I also feel the importance of how we could say like the negative polarity of the one or of creation can come through the matrix agenda can come through the big pharma companies and can come through the, the quenching of the of the drive of the awakening out of the matrix by plaguing with these pharmaceutical recipes for the quelling of said accelerated potential states of exploration. And that's another interesting component because I've had several friends that were. Oh my gosh, lit up in their journey of awakening, and then bang, got prescribed pharmaceuticals because family pressure them and whatnot and then boom. All of a sudden, it's like back to zombie. What the fuck back to unconscious. Yeah. Like, you know, I think this field needs to grow a lot when it comes to the mental disorders. There is something, you know that we don't know yet about these disorders very clearly. So, you know, so I think that it is not really a disorder, like, for example, bipolar, it's probably you know it has a, you know, we don't have a complete picture yet. And there's a lot of misdiagnosis to a lot of in this area. People can be misdiagnosed very easily. A lot of confusion. Even doctors do not know much about, for example, one doctor I talked to, he didn't know that adults can have ADHD. Like it is not something that only affects children. It is just a lifelong, it is like a trait actually. And there is a, there is actually, I don't remember the name of the person who said it, but it is a doctor. And he gave a different name. It is called vast VAST variable attention stimulus trait. People who are labeled as ADHD people are actually they have their nervous system works in a different way. They have interest based nervous system, not importance based nervous system, which means that they don't do things based on what is important. They are always, you know, they are motivated, their attention is directed based on interests, passion, and novelty is another important factor to, you know, if something is novel, they are bound to do it. And yeah, there is also emotional hyper, you know, reaction sensitivity and also emotion, emotional sensitivity to like, they have intense emotions. And, and it looks like, you know, he has a more clear way of putting it, what, telling exactly what it is, you know, personally, I suffered from a lot of issues and I didn't even know what was wrong. It was like, you know, for me, it was, everyone usually says that my childhood was wonderful and then after that it became, you know, hectic and then I lost my the fun that I had in childhood. For me, it is totally the opposite. Childhood was less fun. It was miserable. And then, you know, it improved. And now it is like I am the happiest, like, you know, it is sometimes feel like I'm the happiest person around. I couldn't, you know, I can't really find anybody else who is this happy, you know, and, but my childhood was entirely the opposite. It was like, you know, I something is wrong with me. And I didn't know how to explain the problem. And a lot of things happened and, you know, I wish, I mean, some, I mean, I really think that it should improve so that we don't have, I mean, other people do not face the same problem or go through the same situation. The struggles and everything that I went through. Yeah, which is ultimately what we're passionate about is, yeah, the generation of content that shepherds life awakening, without falling into the same pitfalls and struggles that we went through. And that's huge. And then another thing that that came up while while you were sharing was, of course, to not forget the infamous schizophrenia. That's another one. And so to add that to our list, because there's a clear spectrum there as well where it can be totally disastrous but where it's also like it is awakening like your, your sense of quote reality is no longer the world and the stories. And so, of course, yeah, yeah, so of course it can be. That's another one that came up for friends as well is that it was a diagnosis as they were awakening of schizophrenia by their like family and the friends and then, and then just getting pumped with pharmaceuticals. It happens a lot. Yeah, I know. Yep. Basically, this new analysis of awakening from a psychiatric angle is going to be crucial as well. Yeah, that's, yeah, some of it to. Yes, because since he mentioned schizophrenia, I think, you know, I can say something about it to schizophrenia one of the symptoms is when a person is not taking care of himself like grooming, for example, not dressing properly, not wearing good clothes. That is a symptom of schizophrenia and as a person who is spiritually inclined is more likely to I mean less likely to take care of these things like you know, grooming and things like that wearing impressive clothes. He is more interested in meditating and things like that. And you know, that is, yeah, a lot of other things to like, for example, even talking about things like a humbremas me, it can be misunderstood very easily, like an illusion, another symptom of schizophrenia, he thinks he is God. So that is like a case of schizophrenia, right, but it is not really the case. A lot of people don't understand these words like a humbremas me and, you know, things like that. So yeah, there are a lot of misdiagnosis that can happen and transpersonal, in fact, in the textbook of transpersonal psychiatry and psychology, you can see this is mentioned. The main reason why this field evolved as a separate science is because of this misdiagnosis happening to people who go through a spiritual awakening. They are diagnosed as somebody who is having a mental disorder or schizophrenia, things like that. Even about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, I think there is a book, I have not read it, but the book is about he had some kind of temporal lobe epilepsy or something. And yeah, it happens a lot. It's very common that I think this field itself needs a lot of introduction. Transpersonal psychology is only if people know about it, a lot of people will actually study the material or, you know, they will show interest. And just experiencing meditation for like 15 days retreat, it can actually help them to get a glimpse or really understand what it is about. All they have to do is just one meditation retreat or something, but the people are really scared about meditation in general because of getting into cults or because of promises, false promises that are made in the name of spirituality, things like that. So if it's made scientific, then, you know, that is the only thing that they need, like, you know, an experience of meditation or even using psychedelics and therapeutic, you know, medically supervised conditions. That is discussed a lot in this book, Transpersonal Psychiatry. A lot of research have been done on various psychedelics. They have the power to give a glimpse, you know, show what is possible. But again, yeah, it has a downside to you can be on psychedelics all the time and that would be, you know, that wouldn't be good for your brain. You're training your brain, giving a different perception of reality to your brain. Your brain is not getting trained to face the actual challenging situation, you know, that is in front of you. Yeah, because managing something when you have a drug in your brain is might be easy. And you're not seeing the actual picture. You're not really seeing it is like doing a bench press with supported bench press or you know, working out in a gym, but you're not using free weights. You're using some machines. It makes things easy, but it is not really an effective way right all the time. You have to face the actual stress. But yeah, chemicals do help in opening up people, making them open-minded, making them realize what is possible. I think in the future we might have non-duality bills or something like that. Mm hmm. Some kind of, you know, swallow a pill, you have a glimpse of non-duality. Yeah, it's what it's what entheogens are, you know, magic mushrooms, E5-A-M-E-O-D-M-T, etc., are all usually glimpse generators. Yeah, yeah. The analogy to this is taking a gondola up the mountain with the entheogen, which again just means unleashing God or divine from within. And then the gondola comes right back down after getting to the peak. And so very similar to your analogy of using the assisted weights machines. So the entheogen is a glimpse generator, and then it's up to the individuation to further generate more of the natural state that the entheogen glimpsed for them, in essence. Yeah. And that's not an easy process because it's totally deconstructive. Because there are so many, I've also called them neuronauts, so they're like neural knots, tangles, right? And that to untangle them, to not have these trigger cascades happen in the proliferation, conceptual mental, it requires concentration, it requires meditation, it requires this, like this depth of self-inquiry that is not for the week. So it's really only there for those that want it so bad. And so it's just like, it's just like picking up a musical instrument or picking up a sport, or picking up entrepreneurship. The statistics keep changing, but it's somewhere around like 95 or 98% of entrepreneurs fail their businesses that they started in within 10 years. And that's the thing that you're that we're sort of, it's the same drive that when you wake up every morning for your entrepreneurial success. Or for your sport or your musical instrument success is the same thing for self-inquiry and focus and meditation success. So that it's that level that dissolves the neural knots that are constricting our expression. And I found that the neural knot is in many ways like another good way of tying in neuroscience of neurology with awakening, because it is like, it's basically ossified pathways that are, that the individuation can't easily liberate themselves from. So they become so, so associated with their name. Ah, I am Atlas. I have these five symbols that are strung together that define me and who I am. And so, you know, one of the greatest ones is to dislodge in self-inquiry those little string of symbols that we've attached to this piece of life, things like that. Actually, the word not is a thing is a really good word, word choice because even in Sanskrit, we have a word called grantee, you might have heard about it, grantee and it literally means not. And we have knots that we need to, you know, untie like, so that is a perfect analogy, not because that is exactly what it is like, you know, once it is free, once the knot is untied, there are a lot of such knots actually. You know, there might be in yoga, they talk about three knots. One knot is called as Brahma-Grantee. Brahma-Grantee is about your knot that everybody is entangled at knot, it is about survival. You need to earn money, you need to follow what everybody else is following, you need to have a big house. So it is all about survival and security. The next knot Vishnu-Grantee is conceptual, the conceptual knot, it is about me, the ego. I have to do this, I have to accomplish this. It is all about conceptual, you know, the personal growth, I have to improve this and that, I have to, so that is about me and then the one is about the ultimate, like, you know, the identification. The second one is conceptual about all the knots, not just self, it is about my country, it is about my group, it is about all concepts that we carry, including the religious concepts. So conceptual knot and the third knot is actually the knot of the actual duality. I am different and the existence is different. That is the final knot. Once the other two knots are untied, the last knot which is about the separation, the knot of separation can be also removed and then there is no separation at all. So yeah, that is a really good word actually. So let's play with that a little bit more. I love that, so Grantee knot in Sanskrit, so cool. So I love also how the knot can be applied to the blockages in the chakras of the energy flow is another one. And then the freedom from those unblockages, so that's another great way to visualize the knots. And then, so let's see if I got this right, so Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra, and so Brahma is sort of like the identification with others and world. The Brahma is like the basic, like you know, following the routine to have a secure life. So what everybody is trying to do in general, you know, I have to study, I have to earn money, I have to settle. So it is more about the instinct of survival and security. And the next is conceptual, more about the concepts that we are dealing with. And the third is the separation. Okay, cool. So, so the first one can be kind of like the matrix or like following the Joneses are following the protocols of the collective, and then then we have like an week, we could say like a more of the that's the instinctual survival Vishnu being more about conceptual specifically you said like identity like me and identity, right. Cool. Yeah, all kinds of concepts that we that bind us you know the binding concepts can be anything like religion or ambition. Cool. So binding concepts. And then the last one being about duality Rudra is the knot of duality which then liberates into from separation. Yes, yes. Okay, nice. Nice I love those I'm also going to dive deeper into into that because I love that that's not such a good way. Yeah, put it. The definition that I gave it is like my interpretation because you know it is like a lot of different ways. I mean that that these knots are explained. But when I looked at all these definitions, I this is what I came up with like a bottom line, you know, what I understood, you know, as meant by these not from my perspective, you know, that's what. But yeah, it's, I think it explains a lot not is it is even after you want to it is the same, but it becomes so simple. It doesn't have those complications. Wow, I'm feeling so good about this first conversation together. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It's been I think it's been talking for like more than an hour probably. Yeah, on my end a little more than an hour. Yeah, I'm feeling great like I'm feeling complete. I feel like there could be another potential to explore on this first. Oh yeah, sure. We can do that. It's a yeah it's it's an awesome discussion. I love that. I mean, but whatever we're discussing so far it's a wonderful opportunity for me to connect with you. Me too. Me too. Especially the depth of understanding the way that it springs up with with you. I feel a great amount of resonance magnetism alignment, synchronicity the puzzle pieces can fit well. Good. In the future we can talk a lot about the, the concepts discussed in transpersonal, psychiatric textbook, you know, because that is something I feel like it needs to be known, you know, at this textbook is very hard to read for people I give it to a few people and they said you know it's very complicated it's very academic but we can break it down in our discussions so that people find it easy to absorb like you know, people get introduced about all these work that has been done. Since 1968, so it's been 50 years now. But this field is still not very well known and the hard work that has been done in this field is not really very well known either. And we still find people who, you know, think meditation is somewhat religious practice doesn't have any value. So, this certainly needs a lot of introduction to people can change lives when people are aware of all these possibilities. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love how we can like further together, especially the science spirituality synthesis take it from that approach, and then that will automatically make it more familiar and friendly to mainstream audiences. Yes, great. I love that. And that resonates so we can, we can explore that on our on our next chats. I just have some silly questions. What is your favorite. What's your favorite food favorite food. Oh, it's, it keeps changing actually. Non-vegetarian food actually fish. I love fish very much. It might sound very shocking for many people who are in non duality. People always ask me or be non vegetarian. Yeah, I do because I grew up differently for me non vegetarian food was like a dream because I was a vegetarian family. So everybody is different. But yeah, I love baked fish. I bake myself. I have an oven and that that is very tasty and yeah all kinds of food and these days I'm finding fruits and nuts also because I'm moving to more healthier choices. I'm passionate about health, finding out about how this body works, you know, because human physiology is not like a subject anymore. It is about what this instrument that is why I see it now we can, we can see things as it is it is like you have the user manual in your hand when you have a book about physiology. We learn about the cell, you know, we learn about DNA. So I started exploring health and I eat dry fruits berries, you know cranberries and nuts. So all of them I like very much. Yeah, go ahead without your other questions. Cool. What do you like for hobby. Do you like a specific like hobby. I have a lot of hobbies actually I try out everything, singing. I'm learning music these days. I just, you know, when I when I take a walk in the morning, I learn classical music. That is a hobby. I work out and that is a hobby for me. I mean everything that I do is a hobby actually reading, you know, and then been improving working on all kinds of skills that I, you know, I, I felt some kind of fear in even trying them out because of failure. But now it is no longer there. So why not do that, you know, I have all the time in the world and I improving all kinds of skills. But mainly, you know, I'm interested in music these days, apart from the fitness, you know, I work out in gym for two hours and I'm also passionate about all these things, you know, because when we see things are experience. It is very interesting. How do you feel about song or song like do you have a spiritual community around you that you feel like you can be around that you can easily. Yeah, like, like, feel a sense of like divine or powerful friendship brotherhood sisterhood with I do have friends, but it is more like online interaction. I'm connected to a lot of people who ask me questions sometimes we talk, but not very close to me only these days. I mean, very recently people who know me personally they are getting familiar with my YouTube videos and they're just, you know, wondering and what it is all about they are curious and, you know, they realize that I'm doing something but not really like a satsang or something like that. Very close. So it only happens like online I meet people occasionally video calls chat and they should be shared our experiences, both you know people who are seeking, who are trying to get to that point and people who have already crossed. And that's how that's when I figured out that many people are, you know, struggling with this question about intentionality. That seems to be a weird state of to be in you know, because society expects something different and you think that everything is perfect. I mean, you feel it is a feeling of nothing needs to be changed life is beautiful and perfect. Yeah, so there's something like you know, I'm actually working on things like how to make it more relatable to people. Because you know if you say that truth, like for example, I wake up every day looking forward to how wonderful it is going to be excited to But if I say this to somebody else, they wouldn't be able to relate to it. They kind of want to talk like how difficult and hectic things have been, you know, how difficult it is to get up in the morning to do things. So it is like totally opposite. So yeah, I think that that is something that I'm trying to find out how to make it more relatable. You have to be honest. At the same time, you shouldn't irritate or people, you know, when you talk about it, when you talk about how amazing life is that is really weird because you know, it is unfortunately people are we are living in a world where people think that life is hectic life is but life is awesome. That is exactly what it is. You know, it's amazing. Every day it is different. It's like you're going is another way to get that. Yeah, victim versus creator consciousness. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that's nice choice of words. That is one friend that I have. I talk to her often. And yeah, it's she's from Iran. So it is like, you know, people are too far away from me, people that I talk to that there is a couple from Germany who are interested in my work. They actually came here, you know, twice to India. I met them, and they're still in touch and they have, they're very old. They have seen Osho J Krishnamurthy and many other people in real life. And they they allowed my book. The second book is not that I mean, selling but the first book is it has a lot of good reviews from people. It is about the science and spirituality. The second book is about religions in general. I wrote a book just to explore the mystical aspects of all religions to show how we know. I thought that book will help reduce some conflicts so that people understand that each and every religion has a mystical aspect, which is pretty much the same like Sufism in Islam. Christian mystic traditions all have this, you know, they have similar themes of getting rid of this, you know, illusion and transforming the consciousness. But that book is not that I mean, it is not very interesting for people, I guess, I have it here. The first, this is the second one. If you haven't seen it, you know, the first one is the truth about spiritual enlightenment. And this is the discovering God book. I love you so much, bro. Yeah, I love you too. So cool. I really feel like the one deeply in you and like when you're holding up your books, like, I just feel so much happiness and so much like relatability like deeply. Thank you. Yeah, if you will at like the soul level at that level of the depth of what's possible, right? Yeah. And I love the focus on relatability. And especially like bridging into the victim consciousness because we were there 10 years ago 15 years ago. Yes, yes. Yeah. And just the small incremental things. But also the bigger like quantum leaps to make those available at the same time for where the cosmic leaps, if you will, for the other selves to feel less suffering and to feel more of the divine perfection. To feel more of the separation. Yeah, wholeness automatically and then to create from there. Yeah, I feel really good about this about you and I and what we can further create together. Do you also have any like desire to, because you say most of the people that you engage with most often are further away from you. Do you also have desire to like live among like as we build Shambhala, the spiritual kingdom as that gets actualized on the planet. Are you interested in like joining to come and live together with powerful spiritual community that ends up getting into the thousands and millions of people that are all about the same vibration. Sure, yeah, that will be, that'll be great to meet people and you know live with them. But I don't have much idea about it. Maybe I will have to explore the Shambhala. I mean, whatever your your plans. But yeah, it's, it's, it's sounds like a wonderful thing to do. Beautiful. Yeah, I'll, I'll share. Some of that with you online, a little bit online just like yeah if you imagine heaven on earth and you imagine paradise on earth and all basic needs being met. The creator potential being so effortlessly activated anytime you want to generate something it's just there with whatever technologies that are needed. So abundant. The playfulness, the innocence, the spiritual alignment that that vibration the radiance of love and light. This like very natural ecological integration with technology and with civilization. The, the freedom just total freedom. Unity on this. Just that level of abundance and that level of choice and freedom and that level of being amongst ourselves of that same caliber of that same frequency and then creating from there and then, of course, merging with our galactic friends at the same time. So, so getting that. So all of that. Yeah, and so that's being actualized right now and we'll keep sort of sharing about it. As much as we feel is is right along the journey online but offline I can also share a little bit more. And, yeah, and the best place to get involved also the link is always in the bio for what we're building it's called no limits society. Hundreds of people from around the world. Waking up becoming free agents for the ignition of global awakening, and it's perfect. So, yeah, been Tino Massaro, the team here. The mission is just, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like this mission. Yeah, it's the, it's the bodhisattva vow, and it's, and it's also building heaven on earth paradise on earth and to not just be so non intentional that the matrix forces take over. So, the building of Shambhala is the opposite leading of the oppressive matrix, contractive forces. And so, yeah, so that's, that's all. Yeah, it sounds wonderful. Yeah, it's looks like an amazing plan to help people and, you know, to make these things available for everyone. Yeah, exactly. And then it radiates out as like a radiates out of frequency or a transmission to the collective for those that are seeking union to come to Shambhala's where their basic needs can be met where they can actualize them knowing themselves fully. They can actualize that potential so and just be so abundant like the abundance is such a big key like such a big key like feeling abundant. Like being that such a big freedom like so many of the contracted knots are in the feelings of lack. So yeah. Yeah, sweet bro. I feel really good about this episode this first time we did together feel really good about our brotherhood. So nice. Yeah, me too. That's a very good. Interesting. We went over a lot of things today. And I think this introducing these books and you know the subject is going to be useful for many people. Because I think Richard Boyle's work needs a lot of attention. If I was very impressed even I made a video on his, you know, work and I also sent him some emails we communicated, you know, maybe we can. So I think he would be also happy to know that his book is I mean reaching many people. Yeah, nice. Yeah, and maybe even at some point if he's feeling that we could have a like a three person conversation that could be fun. Yes, that'll be wonderful. Yeah, I have to just connect with them again. It's been a month, a few months last time I sent him an email. Cool. I'll have all of those links that we discussed in the bio below and also thanks everybody. We love you so much. Thanks for tuning into this episode. And we would love to hear from you in the comments below on how the episode resonated for you. What some of your key takeaways were where you're at in your journey. Maybe Sean Mugam and I can actually jump into the comments and and respond to you and engage with you there. We would love for you to also like the video. If it brought you value helps the algorithm subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet. Also share the video with those that you feel like this would profoundly impact resonate with. Similarly this conversation is going to be up on Sean Mugam channel as well. And you can find his channel in the links of the bio of this video, and then I'll give him the links to to our channel simulation as well and he can put those in the bio. Subscribe to his channel, go check out his videos, like his content if it brings you value share his content that type of stuff you can find his book links also the truth about spiritual. It's enlightenment. Yeah, the truth about spiritual enlightenment also discovering God. Also his, the book of quotes, you'll find all those links in the bio below. Check him out and support him there support the synthesis of spirituality and science support that. That baby. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. Thanks brother. Such a pleasure, such pleasure cool. I'll end. Yeah, it was important. It was so good. So good my man. I'm going to end the recording and then you and I can stay in the room for a bit and keep talking okay. Yeah, yeah, bye everyone.