 Yeah, it's been amazing for me to be able to work, you know, with the medicines because, you know, since I got on this path when I was 16, I was, you know, interested in psychotherapy and then interested in an ordinary state of consciousness, but they were kind of like two separate parts of my life and, you know, sometimes I referred my clients to holotropic breath work and work with an ordinary state and so now the possibility of, you know, having those two together and, you know, seeing the possible benefits and transformation for clients has been really wonderful, you know, and I even, you know, with the academy, we work with people with depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder and other issues and it seems like it's, you know, really supportive and transformational work that we can see for many people in a much shorter period of time than traditional talk therapy. So I've been, you know, very grateful and just amazed at the possibilities. Boom. What's up, everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sakyan. We are still at Consciousness Hackings Awake in Future Summit. We are now talking to Veronica Gold. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it. Yeah, so glad you have me. Thank you. We're really excited. Veronica is the co-founder of Polar is Insight and you can find that link in the biopolarisinsight.com. Veronica, teach us about who you are and what you represent. So I'm a psychotherapist. I specialize as trauma therapist and I work on the MDMA PTSD psych-assisted psychotherapy study for MAPS and I'm a co-founder and therapist and Polaris Insight Center where we provide ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Whoa. Okay. So, okay, so the current, the currently the MDMA as a psychotherapy is doing really well. It's now going to phase three. Exactly. We are, we have started phase three. Around the world in different sites. Exactly. So it's around the United States and three sites outside of the US and it's going really well. It has got a designation of a breakthrough therapy by FDA and so we're hoping that there is now going an approval for compassionate use program so that MDMA would be available for people for treatment of PTSD before it is rescheduled before the end of the phase three. Whoa. Okay. And then there's profound benefits that are already happening. The numbers are like about two-thirds of people are feeling like they're- Exactly. Yeah. And then there is, as well we're seeing from the phase two that people continue to improve. So not only in the end of the study, there's still some people who benefit even like a year after the, you know, without a therapy once the therapy is finished. And so we're, you know, excited and curious to see the results in the phase three. Well, okay. So what has it been like being a psychotherapist with people that have been going through, and this is not only with MDMA, but also you said with ketamine too. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, working on the study and starting to work with patients in the way with non-ordinary states of consciousness, we are working on it and waiting for the rescheduling and expanded access, but then the possibility of working with ketamine has been here because that allows to work with the non-ordinary states and healing of trauma, anxiety, depression already now because it's a schedule three drug. And so we started Polaris to provide ketamine assisted psychotherapy and be able to support people in legal way with the medicines in the United States now. Polaris insight. Yes, yes. Okay. Not polar is insight. Polaris, right? Yes. You have different pronunciation. It's like a star, like on your shirt. Like tomato, tomato. Okay, Polaris insight. Like a star. Okay, okay. So, all right. So then the some of the benefits that you've already been seeing are the integration of the traumatic experiences. So it's just about what this has been like for you as a psychotherapist as well as for the patients themselves that are going through the process. Yeah, it's been amazing for me to be able to work with the medicines because since I got on this path, when I was 16, I was interested in psychotherapy and then interested in the non-ordinary states of consciousness, but they were kind of like two separate parts of my life. And sometimes I referred my clients to holotropic breath work and work with the non-ordinary states. And so now the possibility of having those two together and seeing the possible benefits and transformation for clients has been really wonderful. And I even, with the academy, we work with people with depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other issues. And it seems like it's really supportive and transformational work that we can see for many people in a much shorter period of time than traditional talk therapy. So I've been very grateful and just amazed at the possibilities. The efficacy is increasing from talk therapy to psychedelic psychotherapy to even being able to do things with the biosignals that we're getting from the brain and the body. Yeah, so it's just like the constant upgrading of what we can do with these persistent, non-symbolic states of consciousness. Okay, so then what's going on with ketamine as well? Because where are they in terms of their ability to use ketamine around the world? Yeah, so one thing I want to point out is that this ketamine or MDMA assisted therapy, the drug and the drug medicine session is just part of the treatment. So people are coming for talk therapy as a preparation and integration of the session. So that is the whole treatment. And ketamine is legally prescribable in many countries around the world. In the United States, the Schedule III drug, it is approved for anesthesia. So for any psychiatric treatment, it's off-label use medicine. And a lot of clinical trials have been done with treatment of depression. But these trials are really only using the drug for its medicinal properties, you know, kind of the effect on the brain, on the body. But we are looking at using, you know, having benefit of that, but as much as that is the benefit of the therapy that we do while the person is, you know, under the effect of the ketamine. So the assisted psychotherapy part is a really key component of the healing. And, you know, taking the principles that we share with the MDMA assisted psychotherapy of, you know, trusting the inner healing intelligence that comes through in the non-ordinary state of consciousness and this non-linear way of healing, healing through the experience. So that, like, when you mentioned the trauma that, you know, people can, you know, traumas can come up in a different way and can have different experience in relating to what is coming up and with the support of the medicine and the therapist to actually heal and integrate what happened. Yes, yes. And so the talk therapies are still a part of this process at the beginning and at the end, then both. Okay. Okay. But then usually talk therapy doesn't have a psychedelic experience in the middle. So that's the new addition. Okay. Okay. And then when something comes up in the, during the psychedelic experience, then there is a psychotherapist there to help them get through what that is, what's happening. Yes. So how we work is that we are with the client for the whole time of the treatment. So the ketamine assisted psychotherapy session in Polaris are three hours long. And so the, the person comes in, you know, and we are with them for the whole time. So when, you know, they take the medicine and some things come up, we are there to, you know, from anything to just provide safety, you know, write down something what they want us to, you know, write down that we can come back to or process something that's coming up to their mind. There is this kind of inward and outward parts of the session. So there are types of the session when the person can go inward and it's more in silence in the inner process, but then they're coming out and sharing with us, you know, what they are experiencing, what they experienced. So there is sort of this dance between the inner and outer focus during the session. Whoa. And then does it, with, with ketamine then, what is occurring the physiologically within the body and neuroscientifically when the, when it's administered? Yeah. So there are, you know, different ways of, of people trying to understand what exactly happens. And we actually don't know what exactly happens. There is the glutamate pathways where, you know, it affects the brain. There is a, it's, there is increased neuroplasticity by increased communication in the pyramid cells in the brain. And so kind of like, when you think about neurons and people with depression, the neurons kind of stop connecting with each other. And there is more of like a shutdown mode in the brain. So the ketamine kind of increases like a growth and interaction of the neuron. So there is more connectivity and new neural pathways are being built. So it actually changes the physiology, the activation in the brain, neuroplasticity, and that allows people to make new changes, have new insights, and create more lasting changes in their life as well. You know, I think there is more what the medicine does in the body, but there is, you know, just different conversations and ideas how exactly it works. There is the dissociative effect of the medicine. The ketamine is classified as dissociative anaesthetic. And so the dissociation is kind of coming out of the body. So person can have out of body experience, which allows them, you know, to have kind of a distance view on what is going on in their life, has a sense of separation as well, oftentimes feeling of belonging with something greater than them. So that allows them to feel more, you know, trust and peace into whatever they're working with. And as well they have, there has been studies that show that the greater the dissociation, the greater antidepressant effect. And, you know, in that we can talk about like the dissociation as well as the possibility of mystical experience that correlates with the antidepressant effectiveness of the medicine. Okay. The more mystical the experience, the more antidepressant it is. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, you know, it's a beautiful finding in ways that, you know, like there is a difference between dissociation, like sometimes people say like when they have trauma, they dissociate, they kind of like blank out or they're very spacey or they, it's a way of managing what happened to them. And so the ketamine, they're saying like, well, how can ketamine help when ketamine is dissociative? So as somebody who dissociates, how is the dissociation going to happen? But it's, it's help. It's a different type of dissociation. So the, you know, the first time when somebody is overwhelmed and dissociates, it's like a body's way of a reset of kind of helping the person like not to feel what's overwhelming. While the ketamine is this like physical dissociation of the body, which actually creates the space, but a person can still be connected and aware of what is happening. So it, it actually works well for some people who dissociate it. Actually, it's almost like it dissociates them from this protective part of them which dissociates. So it's almost like two minuses and suddenly the person feels more embodied and have greater access to the thing they need to talk about or process. Okay. Okay. And then they're usually talking through the process with you or another psychotherapist. Definitely. So it as well depends on the dosage. So on a lower dosage, there is more conversation. If we work with higher dosage, there might be more inner focus, and then there is more talk and processing as the medicine is wearing off. So that, you know, it's, it's kind of very individualized. We are looking at why the person is coming in, what they're struggling with, what is their hope and intention for the treatment, what is their prior experience with medicines and psychedelics, what is their sensitivity, and then kind of work with different dosages of the medicine. And so lower the medicine, there is more of just like psycholitic trance effect where people are likely to converse more. As we go higher, there is more of just dissociative effect where people go more inward. And as the medicine is wearing off, they, they share more. So what are your thoughts on the next sort of steps with the flourishing of, of psychedelic psychotherapy around the planet? Where are we, where are we heading? Are we heading to smaller like clinics popping up around the world? Is that kind of the idea? Yes, there is different, you know, it's a great question. And I'm asking myself all the time how that can look like. And, you know, I think there is this really desire and seeing the potential of this transformation and as well the importance to know that it is one of the tools and that, you know, it's not just the medicine that you take that there is, you know, the therapy around your lifestyle support and thinking about it, preparation, integration and staying with the values and the guiding principles of this work. So there is, you know, attempt like, can we just do a lot of clinics or give someone the medicine and they're going to heal and thinking about like what all is needed to really do it in the most ethical way and that, you know, the people who provide the medicines have proper training, continue consultation and then, you know, opening clinics and around the world and, and, you know, and that there is different needed for someone who lives in the city. They might prefer clinic in the city. Well, other people, there will be more nature settings that, you know, that they can look in all different ways. So I think there is a lot of possibility and a lot of conversations about how that can look like, how it's... So some potentially in city, some potentially in nature, do you think all of them have a component? Like, does Polaris have a component where they have the, and does the current ones happening through maps? Do we have the component of audio and visual stimulation as well during the psychedelic experiences? Yeah, and so I'm thinking about what are the guiding principles and, you know, when we bring technology, how can it support the process and not interrupt, right? And so there is this inner guiding intelligence that the medicine allows like what needs to come up to come up. So we don't want to kind of bring something or direct where the person's going to go. So I can see that a lot of the technologies that we have can be and are being developed, can be really helpful in the preparation, in the integration, and then some during the sessions, you know, and I'm thinking, wow, like music, you know, we use music in all sessions, sound tables, but as well like that it doesn't interrupt with the natural way what a person's going through. So, you know, like I've had colleagues who said, like, oh, there is, you know, these devices that can help the person not to get to a place where they're very distressed. It like prevents a bad trip. And so it can sound really good. Like, oh, the session can be, you know, we can feel better. But sometimes we can see, like, well, that would interrupt the process. Maybe there is something what a person needs to get through and, you know, kind of intervening in this way would actually stop their process and prevent them from the actual healing. So we can see, like, what would be helpful? Is there a way that, like, that some technologies can help the therapist to know what is going on for the person? Is there something that the therapist doesn't know? Is there going to be helpful, or is it going to take away from the attunement to the patient? So those are, you know, good questions. And I definitely can see how technology can be used in preparation and integration and in some ways during the sessions. Yeah, in the way that it's like personalized to each person and what their experiences have been, what their, like, current taste in music is. I'm interested also to know what your thoughts are on the, quick, is Polaris physical location or is it you guys mobile to get to people? So we have a clinic in Castro in San Francisco. So we have an actual location. Awesome. And then is there, what is legally speaking ketamine can be used for specific things? So it's an off-label use for all psychiatric diagnoses. So legally all psychiatric. So when it's used for healing, yeah, it is off-label use because the FDA approved use for ketamine is for anesthesia. It is a very safe anesthetic. But the doctor can prescribe it for other use. And, you know, kind of what they're saying, like if the body of of same professionals would agree that it is a good indication. So there are being studies done on depression, trauma, anxiety, addiction. And so it's not specifically approved for those conditions, but it has been used. And so if the doctor has a reasonable indication for a person, they can prescribe it. And then people can use it. But so off-label only in the case of psychiatric purposes can be used. Right. And, you know, or for any, for any, like if the doctor decided there was some illness and that this would be appropriate treatment, they could prescribe it. But you need to have a diagnosis so the medicine can be prescribed. But not no recreational use of this is legal. So, you know, at this time it is not, it is a controlled substance. Yeah. So controlled substance and only for psychiatric purposes to be used. Okay. Okay. Interesting. So we don't have it for, you know, consciousness exploration or personal growth. Yes. Yeah. That, you know, could be beneficial. And people do experience that when they're getting the treatment. But that isn't, you know, we don't have, doctors cannot prescribe for personal growth. And then a couple of quick questions on the way out are, are we in a simulation? Good question. What do you think? You can't redirect your things. There's shows on you. I think it's how you think about that. How do you think about it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely a possibility. What do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world? I think it's, it's being alive, being embodied and, you know, connecting with each other, connecting with nature. And I think that's our purpose to be fully embodied and experience, you know, and, and live in, in, now in this state of our planet is to help each other and help the planet. Yeah. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Veronica, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. There's still so much to unpack and understand about the importance of what you do. So we hope to have more conversation about this, especially as the medicine continues to proliferate around the world and become free to use. Yes. Yes. Yes. Huge thank you everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. Love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Also check out the link in the bio to Polaris Insight as well as other links to Veronica and also have more conversations with your friends, your family, your coworkers, people online on social media about the benefits of psychedelics. This is psychotherapy and also check out the links below to consciousness hacking as well as simulation support the organizations, the entrepreneurs and the artists around the world that you believe in and go and build the future. Manifest your dreams into the world. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you soon. Peace.