 Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another edition of the Agile Podcast. This time Paul Goddard, Nigel Baker and myself, Jeff Watts, got together in Bristol and we found an interesting new place called the Bristol and Bath Rum Distillery. This place had a massive still where they made their own rum and a load of mini stills upstairs where people made their own. We thought it was an interesting innovation which got us talking about innovation. How to pivot a business, when to pivot a business. The difference between exploring and exploit and possible contenders for the next Kodak moment. Well, pull up a drink or a shot and enjoy. Play the jingle. Welcome, welcome. Hello. He's off now. Cheers. Hang on a minute. I'm pouring wine. Come on then. What are we? What's it called? Just the Bristol Rum Distillery. Bath and Bristol Rum Distillery. Bath and Bristol rather than Bristol and Bath. I can't remember. I think it's Bristol and Bath. Because we're in Bristol? Yes, we are. In a rum distillery. What's the road called? Park Street. Park Street. Near the university. We are sat in the ruins of a Jamie Italian, which is what this used to be. She's got a bit more history than that, isn't it? There is. There's a plaque on the door. Yeah, before that it was a bookstore, a Blackwell's bookstore. Before that, there's a plaque outside saying someone used to, some scientist or something. Yeah, used to live here. The main is where I got my university books from. Okay. It was about probably about here. I was paying for an overpriced, underused textbook manual. Blackwell's bookstore? Was it a Blackwell's? Yeah. Was it a Blackwell's? Yeah, it was a Blackwell's. It used to be a university Blackwell's. I don't think they've still got one round the corner of the uni. So, yeah. Oh, riveting agile. So, it's quite new. It's quite new. And it does have an agile theme. It's been here two months, apparently. It's experimental. So, they're creating that. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Experimental. So, they're creating their own. It's going to, we will be. They're waiting for the license. Distillery. And we're going to get a tour. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, we'll take some pictures. Yeah, they're going to use a tour. We've already spoke about that. We've got 20-something stills upstairs. And this is the aging, the barrel aging behind the camera, which you can't see, but we'll take those bars. We're pointing now. That's something that looks really good. It's good for rodeos. That's good. Yeah. And their sort of flagship rum is called Dead Man's Fingers. Did you notice they've got dominoes on the barrels? Yeah, that's the number in convention, I think. So, that's like 66 over there, and that's 17. It's like a puzzle room. It's like a puzzle room. Yeah. We've also got distinoes behind us for the spoke individual spirits they said they're going to create for this. Cocktails. Yeah. They've got cocktails. Yeah, it's very cool, very cool. Yeah. And I say it's an agile theme because there's not a lot of experimentation that goes on when you're distilling things and creating new drinks and cocktails. In fact, opening a new business completely is one large experiment. True. Is this their only one, or have they got one in Bath as well? I don't know. I don't know. I've not seen this in Bath. I'm assuming there must be something, otherwise it's not really Boston and Bath, it's more just Bristol. Unless they've got plans and they're trying to future-proof the name. There would only be two cities, wouldn't there? Yeah, true. So, if they come to Cheltenham, they'll be stuffed. So, anyway. Anyway, drinks, drinks. I'm on a lager this morning. Called the Peaky Blinder. Mainly because I'm in the middle of watching Peaky Blinders at the moment. Is that why you picked it? Yeah. Yeah. My sister-in-law used to work on Peaky Blinder at the production company. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. A little dinky can. What's it like? It's a lager. It's cold. It's quite crisp. Yeah, it's like 4.1%. It's golden in colour. Tastes a little bit... No, it's definitely better than your bog standard. Things like Carlsbergs and whatever. It's got a little bit more character to it, a little bit more slight bitterness to it, which is nice. You guys are on the... Me and I are drinking the same thing. Oh, here we go. There's some rums. This is a vom distillery. What have we got to have? So we've got some rums. Dead Man's Fingers. Dead Man's Fingers. There you go. And then we've got the Spiced Rum, which is the one that we're going to be distilling on site. Wow, Spiced Rum also. And then we have got the Ham Leg. All right. Like I said yesterday. All right. Thank you very much. That's the coffee. This is the one they're brewing on site. OK, it's spiced up. I've got a lot of spiced. CBD thing. I like the glasses though. You've seen the glasses. For the benefit of the camera, they can see this. Well, I've just got a generic glass. But as I said already, skull, skull, generic. So we're going to drink this... Is it in one go? No, you sip it. We can pass it around and try the different ones. We can share glasses, different size glasses. It's a nice outfit. That's famous. It's spicy. It's strong, but it's not... That's a very mellow flavour, that one. Oh, that's lovely. The coffee is really nice. I thought it was quite mellow, but it's spicy. It just tastes like fire water. Yeah, that's good. It's not that spicy. It's sort of really quite subtle. It's cinnamon or something. Yeah, a little bit of Christmas, but not too Christmasy. You see what I mean? Oh, yeah, I like that one. I like that one. That's a good one. I haven't tried the CBD one. I'm not a big fan of that sort of oil. Yes, from cannabis, isn't it? But it's not potato or that. I didn't know that. CBD oil is the new fashionable snake oil, isn't it? I don't know. That's my least favourite. But people have it close to the... CBD people have that to help you feel better from the variety of elements. I'm doing it to service. You like the coffee one? I can drink that all day long. I didn't drink the coffee one. The activate them, I think I'll probably do. The one I tried first, first spice, then the coffee, then finally the CBD one. I like the coffee one. It's quite rounded, isn't it? I can feel it all over my tongue. The flavour, sort of spice. Check your idea. I was listening to another podcast recently. No, your game for Christmas. I was listening to another podcast recently. There are other podcasts available. It was to do with drinking and another subject matter. But the way they described their drinks was actually a little bit more detailed than this one. They're probably more qualified. I think they drink a lot more than us. Maybe we need to learn. I was just thinking there with the rum. I don't have the tongue to explain how that rum feels on my tongue. I'm trying to. It feels like a rounded flavour, strong at the back, smoother than a typical rum, but still very sweet. It's getting down the sides of my tongue. I like that effect. Back to your ciders after all that rum. What were you drinking cider-wise? We're drinking a Hawks Urban Orchard apple cider. Which I would describe as complex and rich. And crisp like a kind of wine-like. I'm not reading the bottle at all. Now he takes a sip. If anything, I was guessing the apples. I'd say maybe bravered apples in there, or maybe some brownie and garlic apples. Could be. Here's my problem with this cider. After the rum, it feels very nothing. I took it beforehand, but I think all the compound flavours of the rum. I quite like it. It's quite neutral on the tongue, isn't it? It feels like my taste has been killed. For me right now, that's good. It's tasty. Tastes like apples. I could drink a lot of that, but it's not got the slight edge to it. So, what do we want to talk about today? We've got Nigel here, so that's a... Hello. It's a rarity these days. What's been in the news recently that isn't political? Everything's political to a certain extent. I thought your idea of experimentation with this rum would be a bit of an explanation. Let's go with that. We could talk about experimentation. Because of the Vienna conference, which I was at a few weeks ago, the keynote was Alec Ostrauber, I believe, I think it was Alex. I'm not nice to get a name wrong. I've got a name right. You said Alex. I said Alex, didn't I say Alex? Anyway, we'll play back the first but later. But the point is, it's good to experiment with names and get them wrong. But he did a whole thing on about modern businesses being about explore, failure having to be an option, many strands of attempts of idea compared to exploit, you know, traditional business like a mining company with stable dividends and grinding out the work. And so I think more and more and more of us are realising that, in fact, even those of the exploit companies, are actually an explore company, so we just don't realise it yet. So, OK, so this company, we don't yet know whether this is their first foray. You're talking about where we are, the stillery now. If it is, then they've got a certain amount of risk, haven't they? Yeah, a certain amount of risk. This building, probably a timeframe on the lease, I imagine. They've had to kit it out. And, oh, there's an investment in the whole distilling process, right? Yeah. Perhaps not so much with rum like with whiskey. When you do age rum. Yeah. But... You do create infantry. Yeah. And there's a big risk that... We're just looking at it in front of us now. Yeah, you try it in 12 years time. It's been 12 years aged and it's not good. Presumably, you can test it along the way. Yeah. Because at the moment, they sort of have to boot and sell it up anyway. They said the stillery's not running yet. And so they're having to get going and selling drinks before they actually start distilling. So that's a good idea of getting moving quickly. But the risk there is you have to pay for all this stuff. That's true. But then again, I guess, if you look at it from a source, so the overall business may have risk associated, but the actual individual experiments run in the business. So they could try and experiment with their new distillery. Yeah. It doesn't work. It's only a few gallons of liquid. They're like Disney Plus. Expand. Disney has a very, very resilient, stable business, but they're experimenting. They've invested a lot of money. But is that experimenting or is that following? The fact that everyone else is doing it, so Disney felt they had to have a... I presume they're cutting off some revenue streams because they're taking their products off of the platforms where people will pay another subscription. Yeah. But then they actually had to have a... They said they don't. So it's like with Blockbuster. They said, so the story about Blockbuster is they had the chance to buy Netflix. Yeah, for like $10 million or something. But it's low money and they didn't buy it. Maybe because it destroys their current business model, which is the brick-and-mortar shops. But then reality destroyed their current business model. So there was no choice. So with Disney, you could say it's an experiment. But it's an experiment they've got to do because if they don't, what else would they do? Well, they're still in the right. Oh, so you mean they could just be content provider for other networks? Yeah, that's true. They cannibalised that network. To try this one. They can always roll back, I suppose. If it doesn't work, but they've just got to write up the investment in the platform. Well, it wasn't originally Sony films or whatever they were at the time. Like Columbia, whatever, back in the 1980s. Only let their films be released on Betamax. OK. Because they owned Betamax, so they kept it and then after Betamax failed, they just let their films be available on everything. Um... There's something else around this for me and I don't know enough because I wasn't really following the news, but there were some issues with the launch of Disney Pass, weren't there? Yes. What were the conditions? Do you know what they were? Volume testing. Yeah, too many people trying to access it at once. But it's only available in the States right now, is it? The States and other countries. OK. But it launched in the States. Right. Me being cynical, do you think that was deliberate? Oh, how popular we are. I think that's a very clever idea. I just think the downside of people not being able to access TV shows is more than their scarcity. But if they wanted to do scarcity, they could do that. If they wanted to do scarcity, they could do that. If they wanted to do scarcity, they could do scarcity away. You've got attention. Do you remember Gmail and stuff when it launched? I can imagine if they wanted to do that fake scarcity, you could do something like that. You could really get on Disney Plus with a Disney Plus invite, but I don't think they did that. But it seems to be a thing, isn't it? It's just normal now for launch to not work properly. Yeah. Kind of expect it. And it's a way of getting attention. I think they get more attention from that than if it had been a successful launch. I don't know, because the TSB had that, didn't they? And that's been in the news as the huge reports come out, which I read half of it. But that's because they couldn't fix it. So for the benefit of worldwide listeners, of which we have many, you have to explain what TSB is. Many hundreds of hundreds. The Scottish bank, isn't it? The TSB stands for? I don't know what it actually stands for. Yes, I think it believe it does. There's a bank that basically... Well, they switched over... They were bought by a Spanish bank. Santander, was it? No. No, it was one of the other ones, and it was one of the international systems. And the switch-over was done in one big mass migration. Big bang. And went poorly. And there was customers months to fix it. There was people that had either loads of money if there wasn't theirs in their account or a lack of money. And they couldn't access it. It was a catastrophe, wasn't it? 12 months ago, was it? Lots of people have been in trouble. There was no benefit to them, with that kind of thing, whereas Disney, they were looking for attention, because the TSB didn't want publicity. They wanted that to go under. And for me, it was the fact that they couldn't recover. Whereas if you know you can recover quickly, then actually failing publicly might not be as bad as it looks. So you're saying, like, the Tesla van for the other day, they've got loads more news because he smashed the window to the van by mistake, than he would have got if the windows hadn't been smashed. Possibly. I didn't see it, but yeah. Did that happen? So Musk went to show how the windows would smash. And it smashed the windows. But it happened in an Apple thing as well. Is it Steve Jobs or maybe the guy who replaced them, but couldn't get something to work on in the demo of the Apple or the iPhone? Yeah. And he got, again, people love that kind of negative press, didn't they? You'll be a little bit careful with that, because it depends on... If your product needs to be known for reliability and for trustworthiness, then that flakiness is bad. Exciting, then that flakiness could be cool. So with you with Disney+, I think it's really interesting. I never thought about it, but Disney+, could be looked upon as, like, that's my TV, that needs to be reliable, like electricity, or it could be looked upon like, wow, this is so cool and new like a Tesla. Yes, it's allowed to be... Delicate. I really don't know where Disney+, is supposed to fall. I feel it should be like a utility, like water, but just thinking about it out loud, I'm not sure. But with Broadband now, my expectations of Broadband connection is probably greater than I actually get. I expect it to be like a tap, turn it on and it's full bore. But then all of a sudden, turn the tap on and nothing comes out. I think, well, what's wrong with my tap? Is it my tap or is it the right way? Yeah, I think they still haven't... We're not there with Broadband. I'm going to argue against myself now. Okay, good luck. Because you mentioned they were following, so they're not the first company to do this, Netflix have done this and other people have done this, that they should be expected. They don't have the grace and good will of the first. Yeah, they should be better. They should be better. And they've had a lot of time to do this. They've been planning this for a long time, haven't they? So maybe it's just a sign of poor quality and technical debt. We get sued for this. The thing about Disney+, well, Disney's brand is very strong, but it's very strong in terms of classic Americana. And so that brand tends to give it to like Coca-Cola. It's a brand in terms of having debts and strength, not move fast and break things. So as a brand image, I don't think it's good for Disney either. If they were someone like Google, maybe, but because they're Disney, people expect a certain level of quality. I might be wrong here, but the other alternative that the competition is also Apple TV, isn't it? That's not just launch. So Disney had bought... Which has not done very well at all, has it? What? Not done very well at all. No, that's my point. So they got to market before Disney, I think. Yeah. But they didn't have any kind of USP. Apple TV was exactly that. They were just following the Netflix, the Amazon Prime. But did they bring anything new to the party? Well, the original shows... Which content is king. So they had their own content that you couldn't get anywhere else. Right. But even Apple TV now has kind of disappeared. Well, there's that... Jennifer Aniston TV show, The Morning Show. That's the only thing I know about Apple TV. Is there? There were others. Yeah, Amazon Prime's out there as well, isn't it? Yeah, but Prime, so my wife is a lot of Prime. She spends a lot of time on that. But I haven't heard of anything... She likes it, yeah. What shows on Prime? She watches lots of things I haven't heard of. But once she's found one she likes, obviously the good thing about it tends to... Mr. Roblox. That was on Prime. I watched a lot of Netflix, you see, sir. Yeah, but for me, Apple TV didn't really bring anything. But you said to me this morning about the side to Disney, plus the fact that they've got rights to lots of movies or franchises that I'd be a fan of. Well, we're going to have to buy it, because all the Disney stuff allegedly is going on to it and my kids love Disney. So we're going to have to have to have it. Sky of losing their Disney in March, that's what we're doing. Allegedly, allegedly. But they've lost wrestling. Wrestling's going to BT in January. Is it losing a lot of their sports? This is very UK dominated. The point is... Let's bring it back to Sky. So Sky, a big traditional company, they made a lot of money out of satellite television, which has been... The winner of that argument, BSB died in the 90s in the UK. And now, salad dishes are redundant. Yeah, well, you can get to the internet. But also, Sky, what do they offer? Their business models under threat. Hugely under threat. And what are they going to do as a company? Now, we know going to work at Sky. We know Sky have got a lot of agile teams. But the trouble is, are they being agile in their product delivery or in their business model? Because that was Alex's point, which is you need to be agile. Agilify your business model. And that's my issue with Sky at the moment. It feels like they can use agile to deliver new sub-products quicker. But the overall product direction from an outside point of view looks under threat from these streaming platforms. As a customer, I dislike being a customer, because I'm getting less than I was before and I'm getting more. For me, the movie selections are poorer, because sports are poorer. And so they're going to have to do something on that. If they don't, they will be another tombstone in the codec. Yeah, they will be. You heard it here first. But I remember when Sky were cutting edge. I knew they were the disruptor. And that's the issue, was it? I think the UK Prime Minister at the time, Cameron said to Blair, he said, you were the future once. And then when Cameron went, someone said it back to him, you were the future once. And my concern in terms of what we do, the legacy business is a legacy and some of them understand we need to change. My concern is the companies who were the future once. Yeah. The adult's not a change. It's a method to change and they need to adopt that wholeheartedly to create an organisation that will change. Otherwise, they could end up dying at legacy companies. Exactly, yeah. It all comes back to experimentation, not just on a team level. When was the last time Sky experimented with something? The Sky Q is the last. The Sky Q, no dish then? No, you don't eat dishes anymore. They've tried to sell that to me. It's a poorer service than what I guess. More in what way? It's getting a little bit personal, but I can't get it on as many TVs as I want to. It relies on Wi-Fi rather than cables and my Wi-Fi. Even with the Sky Ball band, isn't it great? That's the only reason, I think, because I've got a lot of phone calls asking me to switch over to Sky. I'm still on an HD box. And with a dish. And the only reason I think I'd have it is because of reliability to the connection. I can't rely on my Wi-Fi. They also store your safe shows on the cloud, on your box. I let them on my box. Sky's been timing out shows recently. They've been very clever expiring shows on boxes, which is a bit naughty, but I like having my stuff stored where I can control it a bit. Again, so how can we make that the control of your own data, the control of your own content is important to customers? So think about how we can make that back to experimentation. You know, they've experimented by taking control of our data to give us a better service, but do we want to sacrifice control of our data? So let's bring this back to where we are now. What's the new here in this venue, this establishment? What are they providing here that any of the... I think it's been a trend over the last five plus years of micro generation. The craft beer, the craft side of the craft gin. We're something of more unique, more difficult. Yeah. And rather than going to the big, bland, nameless conglomerates, and this shows if something's made on site, it just feels a little bit... No, this is in my town, in my street. This is almost, you know, going back to this is something part of my community. I think there is something about the making of something, isn't there, that makes people feel craft, makes people feel good about it, knowing it's handmade, locally made, makes them feel more valuable, more treasured. You've never had that before. If you actually want to have this badge, you have to be here, you can't go to the supermarket. And also rum, it's a unique thing. I've not heard of rum distillery. I've heard of gin, I've heard of whiskey, I've heard of, but never rum. So that seems to be an angle as well. Do you think it's going to take off, though, this one? This place here? Yeah, speak a bit quietly. I don't know the market. So I can compare it to, so one of my good friends back home is just open their own business. It's more of a wine bar that distills their own wine, but it's made their own wine, they're a wine merchant and a wine emporium. So people go in and drink, it's a licensed bar, but where we live is a very low footfall area, so they're not going to get a lot of passing trade off the street. You're on Park Street here, so where they've started their business, it's a very low footfall, so it's about multiple revenue streams. So you can look at this place here, they've obviously got a lot of bottles behind the bar, which are universal, you can buy them anywhere, but that gets them into the Park Street locale. They can come in here, they may not be able to drink everything, they can see, but they can drink something that they know. It's about trying to have these multiple business of business or business to the internet side of things, to sell online or whatever it might be that's probably going to keep these types of businesses afloat. I would think this place would have a strong internet arm, selling bespoke rooms to fund this type of building in this location. I think you have to have an internet kind of an online element to whatever you do. People kind of expect it these days. We'll tag you on Instagram, because obviously the pubcast is on Instagram now. Thank you to this, Geoff. But we can help publicise and it's only easy to do that if they've got an online presence. Even if you're not selling online, you need an online presence. Well, people look things up on the phone. There's just this morning with this place, I saw it walking here, so I literally walked past this place. I got to Jeff and said I saw a bar, and it was going to be open. And we googled it and saw it opening time. Here we are. So you have to have that. You can't be a lada. So we do think that we're just joking about having an online presence and only a stupid business would not have an online presence. What do you think would be the next step of that? So for us now that we think is mad than yet the future will think is doing it for advertising because you would joke about Instagram but I've never done anything on Instagram. I don't want to take pictures of my food. I want to eat my food. Is online being a lada? Well, that's a little bit. Tiktok. You know what tiktok is? My kids have talked about tiktok. I don't have any idea, was it? Short videos, absolutely. Yeah, short videos, so it's good. It's fun. She's got a video that's had 35, 36,000 views this morning. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, combined. Combined up together. So we just go with the real talent and the families in the next generation. Of course, naturally. It's difficult to know, isn't it? It's difficult to know what the next delighter is going to be. We don't know that. It's not even a delighter, is it? Considering now an online presence is part of the definition of done. It's not a delighter feature. It's not that. It's compulsory. You can't imagine what that's going to be. Something to do with DNA. Something to do with a chip in your arm or something crazy like that. Let's go with that Karno model. So the delighter for me here today was that I didn't know. You probably saw what reaction he was that tall. Yeah, they also have a tall. That's something that I didn't expect. Has that come through on this old did it go through them? Yeah, I don't know. They've offered us a tour of the facilities here. I did, but when we came in it showed a bit of interest in what they were doing. They may not offer that to everyone. On a Saturday night, I doubt they would. But it's that little extra that's probably going to increase your opportunity in this market that that might get us talking about it. It's going to increase your attachment. That's part of the social online presence. It's creating an attachment. It's almost like an online friendship, isn't it? You have an attachment to that brand. This is very fascinating because Howard said, Howard Sublett chief product owner of the Scrum Alliance said at the conference about how they want to move the Scrum Alliance a bit away from transactional learning into more coaching. And actually what I'm realizing now, that's not from training the coaching, that's from transactional to relationship. And that's really what modern businesses like this need to do. It can't be too transactional, like the stag do that comes in on Saturday night. They need to build relationships. People who come back, they come many times what they need. And that's building relationships as a business, not building transactions as a business. And for that, you need to have a very strong idea of who your primary persona is, who you are aiming at this time, and you are targeting them and their friends and their friends and their friends. And you've got to really delight them to build a relationship. You've got to go the extra mile. It's going to be delight. Do you feel we as trainers, as coaches, as agile companies delight our customers enough? Well, I think I have a good relationship with people. I have a community. I have a lot of people that follow me and interact with me and we talk a lot. But enough about us, Jeff. What about your customers? And I like to think that, you know, we give a lot. We give a lot of these free pubcasts away where this is a lot informal sharing, it's like inviting. So you are, the video is being hosted on a chair, a fourth chair on a table. You've been drinking rum with us. I hope you enjoyed it. Lots of free videos and tweets and things. It's a relationship. We talk about stuff. It's not just coming to my course, I'll never see you again. I would say I'm still a lot of my customer base is peer-to-peer. I get very little from new alternative or online or whatever. Marketing streams, it streams it's personal relationships that people I know, people that know me who talked about me to someone else, went to a different company and shared that. So I think it's massive in our industry because we are talking about people related processes, that people related change. You've got to have a connection with people themselves. So with some of the... We all know that agile has got so big and popular that there are many large corporations being very interested in this. And do you feel they still build that relationship, that rapport? No, I don't think they do. I think the ones that do that necessity don't. That's a very transactional approach we will buy agile. But I think I enjoy the... I get personally, from my personal perspective, I get more out of a stronger, smaller relationship, more personal relationship with a big blue chip company that's just hired me to tick a box. When there's some investment from them that they're willing to invest in me rather than just in what I teach. Yeah, that's the important of not strong training. Personally I get a lot more out of that than just, you know, just turning the wheel. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking just because most of my stuff is long term stuff these days, not new. It's relationship before relationships. Which is great. And it's going back and revisiting then people connect to the people. Just thinking back in terms of just harsh commercials in terms of I'm happy with what I do and how I do it. But let's say I wanted to build an extension or something. I think the trouble is with that type of thing is it has to be more... What I mean is would those types of company have to become, so let's say agile bear would have to become that type of company to achieve that success. Or does the modern world mean those types of company have to become more like our types of company. Human, relationship based, you know, long term partnership, not transactional. See what I mean? That's the problem I was having. My concern is that businesses not ours, but businesses like ours would become like them when they get big. And what they should be is businesses like them becoming more like ours. Trying to think of an example of a big company that I feel I have a stronger close personal connection to. There aren't many. Well I'm working with one at a moment. Well, a couple but one springs to mind. And it's I find it fascinating how senior leaders are struggling to understand how to act. They genuinely don't know what to do. They're worried because they don't know how to act. But they've got to make some decisions. And they know that they're being pulled in different directions, their head and their heart. When under pressure they'll revert to what they think is safety but actually paradoxically what they think is safe is actually the riskiest thing they can do. The difficulty for me is when you talk about business models and sustainability in long term is if people are buying poor Goddard, how does poor Goddard take a break? How do you ever stop if you've got this community that's all over the world and they're talking to you and you want to give them a reach of Italian. You're always on. You're the utility. That's the difficult bit. You don't have the opportunity of a faceless minion who can tend to be here that can do something. And that's what I like about what I do and that's what you guys like about what you do is training. And there's got to be something. When you say it's about becoming us, is it about us becoming more like them or them becoming more like us? It's not why I don't want to be somewhere in the middle of this. Those big companies wouldn't want to be like us and we wouldn't want to be like them so we just wouldn't. Flattening those different hierarchies but also us trying to create a more sustainable future is not a one person always on type thing. Different challenges. And I think the future will still have those big companies and it will still have the little companies. It'll probably have more of the little companies if you took a proportion of 50 years ago it will have more little freelancers than it did then. It just comes back to what we're saying there's going to be more choice isn't there? And those, even amongst what we do there's more people doing what we do now than there was 10 years ago than there was 15 years ago. People are going to have more choice. We've got to, and with the personal relationship is what you leverage that's what makes you different. So back to Disney Plus, will the market support more choice? Well that's the paradox of choice isn't it? Well it's not a choice, that's not a choice because you can't go to Disney Plus for your Star Wars movies or you can go somewhere else. But the question is, do I want Star Wars movies from Netflix or Disney Plus or do I want Star Wars movies or not? Yeah. And that's actually a choice you can make. So if I had my interests wind up. There's binary, there's multiple choices. The biggest choice is if I can choose off my choice so I'll give a real-life example. Nigel is a sophisticated man. I will probably get Disney Plus but the Disney and the Star Wars are a marvel. You have the WWF Network the wrestling network about the same price as Disney Plus. I'm not going to keep both of those on. I don't want to spend £20 a month on that. I'll probably just drop the WWF Network because I don't watch it much. It was nice to watch old wrestling from when I was a kid but I've watched that now. So I'll drop that. So the choices between Disney and that, that's the choice not what platform I watch it on. So people may become more picky about what they choose to watch NBA or NFL. Like I imagine there was a Premier League channel a Premier League streaming service. There'll be mergers. There'll be mergers in the future. Yeah, yeah. But then is it going to come back to a few key players again? So we'll spend ten years time with that. That's quite normal isn't it? You go from conglomerates where school irons everything to lots of fractured fractured offerings and that's the other extreme since the pendulum and then it'll come back a little bit this way and then it'll come a little bit that way and I think it'll probably end towards the side of the multiple infinite channels rather than towards the side of the conglomerates. So there's too many channels anyway. So thinking of Alex's thing about was it explore, exploit Sky old people like that were going to exploit. Now we've shattered back into explore again. We're going to be the explorer for a while and start settling down on some of those streaming services become more exploited again in the future. And that's the thing for me in terms of our job or not or Scrum or not is that it's not necessarily the process or ticking boxes. It's all up here isn't it? It's just about thinking, are you thinking in a adaptable way? Are you thinking about what are we doing? What's next? What's next? Too big to fail That's what keeps me interested. I bet our old employer four weeks ago did not think it was for nationalisation did it? Bit of a shock. Again you'll have to explain that. Basically British Telecom our old employer for many decades ago was recently revealed to be semi nationalised by one of the political parties. Potentially. If they win the general election the idea is they would part nationalised a lot of things as well as a few other things like the rail and the mail and everything which actually if you're in continental Europe would not be unusual to you because you will have nationalised mail and rail and energy and phone but for Britain we privatised that in the 80s and nationalising that would be a bit of a shock. But imagine their business model their ideas, their futuristic plans and where they're going to take out a nice exploit area and oh my god we've got to innovate innovate now. So you never know what's going to keep up when you do. Talking of exploring we should probably take them up on their offer of this tour. And we'll explore this tour before it gets too busy. So I think we're done. How was the interview? It was and I thank you for helping me explore those ones because they were quite nice. I think we should have another one of those before we go.