 Could you please state your full name? It's Bill Van Gogh. And your age? I'm 70 years old. And where were you born? I was born in Antwerp, Belgium. Okay. And as a child, what did your parents do for living? My father had automotive business, primarily automotive parts, but he also did some work on resurfacing brake drums and that sort of thing. But it was a very successful business right after the war that he started in roughly 1946. Okay. And you as a child, what were your interests or pastimes? I spent a lot of time in the store because people would bring in broken parts from cars to have them replaced, old light bulbs, old drums. And I used to build these structures in our backyard. And so I used old light bulbs and old pieces and create it. Sometimes I felt I was building computers, but of course it was all in my imagination. But it was a creative sort of creative thing I liked to do. And was it more of a, did you create more structural things or was it more electronic things? It was structural. Okay. Structural things. Yeah. So a precursor to- Yes. What we'll be talking about in a moment. Yes. So what about at school? Were there any specific classes you really excelled or liked? I was very good at drawing and geometry. I excelled in geometry. I was always number one in a class with geometry. Okay. Yeah. And I still, you know, on occasion when I need to apply for special permits somewhere, I need to have sort of a background. You have to give the association of an engineering association. You have to give your background and whatever your interests are. And I often refer back to those early days of my involvement with geometry. Okay. So if I'm not mistaken, you actually came to Canada before going to university? Yes. That's correct. So, I mean, I asked why you and your family came to Canada and how that happened. Well, as I mentioned earlier, my dad was in this automotive business and he started after the war. There was a real booming time in Belgium. And towards the early 60s, that boom started to diminish to the point that my father, you know, he had 11 children, he realized. And he was also an accountant. So he knew that the business was not really supplying enough resources or funds to keep this family going. And he went to Antwerp quite a bit to buy products for the business. And when he walked down in Brussels, he saw a big billboard at the window of the embassy, the Canadian embassy in Brussels. And on this window, it said, come to Canada. And there was all these pictures of Pegasus Cove and mountains and prairie fields. He thought, oh, wow, I think I'll go in there and have a look, you know, talk to them. And he spoke to a person there, probably an attaché or whatever, in the embassy. And they said, Mr. Van Gogh, you're exactly the kind of family that we want in Canada. And we're going to help you get established in Canada. We wanted to go to Montreal because we could speak French. But they said, no, no, Montreal is too big a city. You need to go to Saskatoon. And of course, we'd never heard of Saskatoon. We looked on the map. We found it in the middle of the prairies, you know. And they said, no, no, this is where you should go. Because this is, at that time in 1964, it was the fastest growing city in Canada. So they said, this would be the best, best for you. You'd have the most opportunities. Do you think maybe it was also fastest growing because they were trying to send most of them? Possibly. No, it was also the early days of potash, potash mining. So that is, potash was discovered. They found large resources there. And they said, and a lot of people went to Saskatoon because of the potash boom starting in 1964. And yeah, it is the largest exporter potash in the world. Yes. Absolutely. So, so you were 18? I was 18 when I came to Canada. And what were your first thoughts of Canada? What, if you were to compare your first reactions, your first emotions? Well, when we arrived in Montreal, that was very similar to a big city in Europe, where, you know, we're from Antwerp, Belgium, in Brussels. That was all very common to us and kind of interesting, a bit European looking as well. But then we went to Saskatoon. It's like a prairie town, very low buildings, low rise things, no high rises and very wide streets, no traffic jams. That first impression was, oh my, you know, this is, where are we now, you know? My dad always was wondering also if they had streetlights, you know, because he thought something from the movies, you know, the old movies out west. But it was fairly well established when we got there. So it's, there was not so much of a shock after a few days, you know, we got used to it. And we did very well. Yeah, good. So by that time you'd be going or thinking of going to college or university. Yeah, but we first went to, like my sister and I were similar age, which is only one year apart. We went to high school. And I was put back one year so that I could sit in the class with my sister because we couldn't speak English, right? So we had to learn as we went. We arrived in September and it was also September is also the month that school starts. So there was really no time to learn English. We just went to school and managed from there on. And what did you decide to, what were your intentions for a future, a career? I always want to be an architect because I like the building and I want to be, to do architecture. But there was no school of architecture in Saskatoon and my parents could not afford to send me to Edmonton. I think it was a money in Edmonton or Calgary. So they said, oh, no, you better choose something that is right here in this town. So there was a school of engineering. So I went to engineering college of engineering in Saskatoon. Okay. And what kind of engineering? The structural civil civil engineering. Okay. And so from there, what would you consider your first job after your degree? Well, when I really enjoy like after four years of engineering, I've, I really enjoy the computer aspects. And this is now in 1970. So computers were all not that prevalent in design. But I could see a future in engineering and computer combining both. And really the university did not offer any special courses in engineering and computers. So I found an advertisement in a newspaper in Saskatoon for college, computer college in Ottawa. So I came to Ottawa specifically to take this course, computer course. And I was always thinking of going back to Saskatoon. But I also realized when I was in Ottawa, that I really couldn't do both is to go to school and to support myself. I wasn't going to work. So I thought, well, I should get it, maybe get a job first, get myself established in Ottawa. And then while I have a job, pursue the computer aspect of engineering. That didn't exist yet though, right? Now computer engineering is a very popular, some group of engineering like that Ottawa U, for example. But it wasn't back then. Not at that time. So I thought I'd better get a job. And I went to the unemployment office and went there just about every week. And then at one point this, the people at the office there said, we have something, something just came in from a company called Fentimans, a Fentiment in Sons. They're looking for a draftsman. And they said, well, come back in the afternoon. We'll have it all written up. And then you can go and see the Fentimans in Sons and talk to them about this drafting position. So next day, I went to see Fentimans and they were doing this work. They had a small division called Triodetic. So this triodetic, I was hired as a draftsman, even though I had an engineering background, I was ready to do anything and started as a draftsman at Fentiment in Sons. That was a window and door business. Okay, windows and doors. Yeah. And I guess from there. Well, they had Art Fentiman, who was one of the sons of a Fentimans company, had invented a system that would interconnect tubular components into a hub. And it was a very efficient jointing system. And I was really fascinated. And they had done some interesting structures by the time I was hired to help in the drafting area of the triodetic aspect of the triodetic division. So... What was specific within the triodetic division as opposed to the rest of the company? The triodetic division, they were already exploring to build dome structures with the system because the system was so versatile. It could do dome structures. It could build flat space frame structures. It could build vertical walls. It's very, very, very different. And also, that system, I could recognize right away that it would suit very well to computer design because there are so many components. And to do everything by hand manually would be a very cumbersome process. So I could see where I could already apply the little knowledge I had of computers to applications that they were working on. So that's... And then I did sort of self-teaching, self-learning, applying computers. And I had some... I had Fortran language at the time. It was called Fortran language experience. So programming was something I enjoyed doing. And triodetic was a natural thing for me. And because I was also interested in architecture, it had an architectural aspect to it, a structural aspect. So it's like, oh, this is perfect. And I'm still in it now. It's just like 45 years of doing triodetic. And because of its... I mean, everything is custom, right? Everything is... Order is different. So architecturally, that's a great aspect of triodetic. So did you also keep going to school? Because your plan was to get a job but also... No, I never... No, I felt that I could manage the applications that I needed. And so much of the learning was done. Yeah, so I... At work? I did not background that I could actually continue to expand computer applications. Really, that's... I don't think I needed anything more than what I was doing. So can you just go quickly through your career here, but also maybe a little bit of the history of triodetic as well? Yeah, the system... to go right back to the requirement, as I mentioned, the F-Ventamin and Sons was a window and door company. And they had a requirement from the Canadian government to get involved in a very large door to be constructed in the north. And the only way that this was for the Air Force at the time. And all... This door would have to be flown in, in components. So Art Fentamin developed a system where tubing could be formed in individual components and packaged very compactly and then shipped to the north. So that was the very first project that triodetic, or at least Fentamin and Sons did, was to build this very large hangar door shipped by aircraft, small aircraft, to a northern community. So that's the background of how triodetic sort of became a structural system with a very good application. And they also... I think it was 1967 was the Expo 67 in Montreal. So they were then brought in to do other things. So some architectural structures were built at Expo 67 using the triodetic system. And I guess you were saying it started up north, with the north. So it would triodetic now had access to all sorts of very... niche or isolated markets, I guess, because it was so much easier to transport this structure as opposed to any... And especially even now we still find the aspect that it can be such compact shipping has been a benefit to us as against competition or competitors who would build large trusses and would have to ship them by truck. So we fly things in in the very compact containers and all over the world actually. So if someone were listening to this who knows nothing about triodetic structures in layman's terms, how would you explain a very simple system at triodetic? It's a prefabricated system and it's put together very quickly and for instance, one connector can hold eight pipes. Pipes are made of steel. Pipes are made of steel or aluminum. And so it's a prefabricated system that interconnects tubular components. And you can make a very large array of components. So the structures can be something from a very small dome, let's say a two meter dome to as much as a hundred meter diameter domes that we're building now using this structural system. The same system. What's the biggest structure? The biggest structure we've built so far is in Peru and it's a 110 meter diameter dome. So that's getting up there. That's 350 foot or something diameter. That's a very large structure. So now you own the company? Well, I used to own the company. I just recently sold the company. Because at 70, I should think of divesting myself of my own but I feel I still own the company but it's now technically owned by others. I'm still a fixture here apparently. I'm still at my desk. Any plans of retiring anytime soon? No, I don't think anybody wants to hear that word retirement from me. No, it seems to be a recurring theme in this project, these interviews. Is that right? Even when people tell me they're retired, I find out they're not fully retired. It seems hard to quit working in this domain. You're right. So if I were to ask you maybe about your most challenging or even go as far as saying dysfunctional part of your career or project you had to work on or something like that, is there one that comes to mind? Well, dysfunctional does not come to my mind. So that's been very good for me. But as far as a structure that is very unique and was a challenge and never built before by this method is a project with it in Chile for a mining company and it's called the Escondida Mine in the Atacama Desert. So it's again a very remote place to build and Tridentica was perfect for that because of our ability to use small components for big structures and it had a very unique installation method which we developed, never tested before. So it was all very new and I had several sleepless nights but I felt that we could do it and I had done enough tests to assure myself that this could be done structurally. It's a big structure, it's some 60 meters wide and I believe 150 meters long and in addition to, it is used as a cover for stockpile, copper stockpile but the biggest challenge was that in the top of this barrel vault shaped roof there was also a train. So our structure is holding a train that travels back and forth to deliver, they call it a tripper but it is a piece of equipment that travels through the roof to the top of the roof and it deposits material into the building. So it is a top loaded building, so the full length of it is a train track in the roof and this machine travels back and forth with a conveyor attached to it, it deposits material. So that had to be extremely strong. It had to be extremely strong. So the triadic, in addition to the triadic components we also have structural steel components. So it's a blend of two systems conventional structure system and the triadic system. But it was sort of like I was sticking my neck out to some extent and never really knowing if, well, I had confidence that we could do it but then there's always this little bit of doubt that keeps you sort of... Something goes wrong. Yes, what if this whole concept doesn't really behave the way we think but that wasn't the case. Worked out very well. So what's, I don't know if there's a limit but is there a number to how much weight triadic structures can support? As long as we combine it with conventional steel there really is no limit. Triadic by itself has a limit because of our tubular system is a fairly light gauge tube. It's not a heavy pipe. It has some limitations. But we are using triadic for 300 foot or 100 meter diameter domes without structural steel systems. So it has capacity but I would think that is probably the limit. 100 meters to 110 meter diameter domes. And the reason the dome shape has its own inherent structural capacity because of its double curvature and that is another benefit. That's why when we see a structure or we have a requirement for covering an area we usually steer the client towards dome shape because triadic is most efficient used in dome shapes, dome curvature. The double curvature is really what helps us. And that's really a curve. Would you say you've had one or a few mentors? My mentor is really Art Vendaman, the developer of the system. He was a great guy, very practical. He did not have engineering background but he had a very good intuitive sense of structures. And when he developed the triadic system he also sensed even though we would have to do calculations of what tube sizes to use he had an intuitive sense of what tube sizes or what he thought would best suit this particular application. And I learned a lot from him as to how to work a project, through a project is to just work it steadily, don't get overly excited, just kind of work from the basics. And this is the way he dealt with most challenges. Even when you're building something and something goes wrong or something's not quite working the way you just approach it in a very calm manner and you come up with some good solutions. He was amazing, really. I admired his abilities and he was very good as a human being as well. Very friendly, very easy to work with. And he, in fact, he received the Manning Award. You may want to do some research on exactly what the Manning Award is but it is to celebrate Canadian technology and Canadian people that have done well. It's actually a Manning Award was established by the father of Preston Manning. I think you may have been in government in Alberta, Mr. Manning, but it was a Manning Award was established to recognize special contributions by Canadians. And Arch Vendement was one of the award winners of the Manning Award. It comes also with the financial benefit as well, the award. So we'll get a bit more into the actual structures and things like that as we were just talking about. But historically, I don't know if you can answer this, but when Tridentic or the system was first developed, do you know if it was in response to a clear problem or a clear lack of something in architecture engineering where they thought there must be a solution to this and that's how they developed the system? Well, it was really the requirement of this large door. That's all about the door? Yeah, because Fentements, they were building wooden doors and sometimes metal doors, and it's just the fact that this had to be a very large door in metal that created really, that's where Arch Vendement had to put his mind to something very special that would accommodate this requirement. So this really goes back to the door requirement. Again, that was a challenge. But as I mentioned earlier, the Tridentic system is very adaptable. I mean, the very first time was a door, but then now we are getting involved with structures in the north for permafrost applications. That's another solution. It seems like we're always finding new opportunities to apply the product in different aspects that we would never have thought of at first. Can you talk a bit about the most recent solutions, sorry, problems and then solutions in Tridentic, such as permafrost? Yeah, permafrost applications actually stemmed from the National Research Council of Canada where looking into different foundation systems in the north because permafrost is an ever-changing soil condition. It could be frozen one year and not so frozen. And now with climate change, there is softening of permafrost, which means some of the buildings that were previously sitting on frozen ground are now on soft ground and are cracking. So the National Research Council was doing some research as to how can we get around this problem. And they knew that we were able to build space frames. So this would be like horizontal structural systems. And they felt that if they could build a building on three points, then you have a stable system because three points is the most stable condition you can have. So they contacted us to build a flat space frame and put it on three points so it could be built in the north. So we built that and it was successful. It worked very well. But I saw a limitation in that it would probably not, we could not make very large structures because if you build very large structures on three points, that means you have only three points of support, which also means you would have very large forces on the ground in a ground condition that is poor. So intuitively that didn't work as far as I'm concerned. So I felt, why don't we put that whole slab onto multi-points? We have every component, all the joints are sitting on the ground, on plates. So it's more or less like a floating slab sitting on many, many points. And so that was tested as well. And it had great results because in that case you wouldn't just have three, you'd have many points. But let's say if a space frame had 100 base plates, not all 100 need to sit on the ground, you could have some floating, as long as you have enough rigidity within the system. So that has become now for us in triadic, that's become a really interesting application. And we have used the system now in Russia, in Norway, we're in Alaska, we're in Northern Canada. So it has the permafrost, which is now because of global warming is becoming softer. Our applications are actually expanding, the use of it is expanding. And it makes it a lot easier also to even move or relocate houses. That's right, because you could pull it away, you could actually drag it. And in Shishmarev, Alaska, there are several, this is a town that's been there for hundreds of years, and it's on the coast of the Chechi Sea. And the Chechi Sea is eroding the coastline and some of the buildings are actually fell into the sea. So we went in there some years back to take measurements of the existing buildings that are on the edge of this cliff. And we lifted the building, put the triadic underneath and put our triadic structure on skis, like metal ski, and then waited for winter. And we pulled them with bulldozers, we slid them a kilometer away. And we did I think some 28 of these homes and there is another neighboring community that has the same issues, don't recall the name, but we're now working with that community to move them also away from the shoreline. Speaking of shore too, you're doing a bit of work as well more south with flooding, right? Yes, flooding the application. So the similar approach we're using now in flooding regions, where we provide stability to the building using the triadic. And then if you have a flood situation, at least the building is intact. There might be lots of water there, but it's not going to be differentially. You're not going to have erosion of certain portions of support. Even if you have erosion, it functions as a full slab. And also to expand on that, we did a lot of remedial work in Alaska again, in Alakakat, which is a community that is on a river, and the river overflowed, and the whole Alakakat region was underwater. So we went in there and lifted buildings and put our structure underneath. And can you often lift the buildings high enough that when there is flooding, it doesn't actually touch the house? The ones in Alakakat, we lifted five feet and put our structures underneath. So they are elevated, and usually the rivers, they're not going to go that high, but that is the limit that we were given in the event of, if it goes up to four feet, it's still in a dry area. The base of your home would still be in a dry area. What would you say, up till today, what is Triodetic's best and most unique characteristics as a product? It's the versatility of shape. We can... Dome structures is not a standard structure that people can readily fabricate. We can make dome shapes very quickly. We can also do free form shapes because the system really adapts very easily. It's all computer-controlled, computer-designed. Although there are many components, the fabrication is so readily, easily done. Our press, our system, our fabrication system allows for easy and very precise variations in angle of tubular component, the angle that is fixed to it. So in that way we can do free form structures like, I don't think there's another system that can do it as well as Triodetic. It's simply that custom. Yeah, very customised. Now speaking of the actual customisation and the making of these pieces, take us through the process of getting these pieces, what they are, how you transform them. Yeah, we have the jointing system. Well, there are two main components. One is a metal joint which is made of aluminium and the joint itself has grooves in it and they're like keyways. So the keyway is very much like, it's like a pine tree shape. The keyway is a pine tree shape and we take tubing, we bring tubing in from a factory to us so the tubing comes in long lengths and we form the ends of the tubes with the same keyway, the same pine tree shape at the end of the tube and then we slide that keyway into the slot. So the raw materials is really, again, very simple. The hub, the aluminium hub, we buy that in long lengths with the keyways extruded in them and we slice them to suit the application and the tubes come in long lengths, could be aluminium tubes, could be steel tubes, it could be very wall thicknesses. We put them through a pressing operation and we press the end of the tubes with this keyway design and then we also put a stamp, we number them with a metal stamp because some structures may have 5,000 components and it could be 5,000 different components so each component has its own number. Like a big puzzle. You look for the right number and you slide it in the right slot and we can build some exotic structures. So generally the two metals used are aluminium or steel? Steel and it could be stainless steel. We've done some structures and for the potash industry in stainless steel for ultimate corrosion protection. All our tubing, if it's not stainless, we use galvanized steel tubing but you can also use aluminium tubing. Would it be lighter? Yeah, much lighter and also has that corrosive ability and the aluminium is corrosive resistant so the applications are... we find that in our system probably about 80% is steel, galvanized steel tubing. Now, could you talk a bit about its application in the mining industry and what kind of structures you do and why there are structures? Yeah, the mining applications have been primarily because of environmental concerns. Many of the mining operations involve using conveyors, bringing materials and creating stockpiles and that whole operation of dropping materials from great heights to create stockpiles of concentrated load in one area creates dust because the materials fall down and the wind carries the dust far and wide and for many years this was ignored as a part of doing business in mining but environmental concerns are requiring more and more control of product and that's where we started to get involved so our involvement in mining has been as part of a dust control requirement and also a lot of these... quite a few of the mines are operating mines and we can build our structures while the mine is in operation so there's really very little impact on product, you know, on operations and we build in place while the mine is operating. And you had mentioned before the interview one of your proudest structures which is in BC? Well, yeah, there's a mine it's called Highland Valley Copper in near Kamloops and it has been operating for the last 20 years creating dust for the last 20 years and there's a community nearby called Logan Lake and they've suffered dust... not just Logan Lake in the whole region dust is traveling far and wide and I went to the mine while it's in operation and the dust is everywhere you're walking through sometimes a foot of dust so it became an issue and the workers were complaining about dust prevalence everywhere so we were involved in putting dom covers over each conveyor system each stockpile location there are three stockpiles three in a row and the client asked us to create the largest Canadian flag in the world by having the three domes and the middle dome has the maple leaf the very large maple leaf in the middle of it and it's an amazing structure you can see it flying over because each dome is 100 meters so if you put 300 or 400 meters device down below three domes that form the Canadian flag so we're very proud of that and it certainly has that Canadian feel to it and when we take it to that image of these three domes we take that to our trade shows in Chile and in Peru and people immediately identify it's a Canadian product the Canadian flag I actually think I had seen the picture at the Mine Expo yeah sure it's a fun one for us so it's official, it's the largest flag Canadian flag we like to think so certainly the permanent has a permanent installation there may be some temporary installations that I don't know about certainly permanent it's the biggest I think last question about your career but you also I think teach I teach at Alconquan I'm a guest lecturer and my guest lecturer is primarily to do with permafrost applications also I teach as students about permafrost and about building in permafrost because right now in Alconquan college students are taught about construction using foundations like four foot glow grade to be away from frost conditions but in the north everything is frozen you cannot dig to build a foundation you have to build on top of the this is something new that they don't really know but so I teach that I don't I'm not on the regular roster but I'm getting invited to teach but I did I had a two year involvement at Alconquan college teaching new Canadians technology program on weekends so that they could be these would actually be foreign engineers who have an engineering degree from foreign lands but they have a difficulty finding work in Canada because their engineering degrees are not recognized but they can obtain a technology degree and I was teaching technology courses to bring them up to the level that they could actually get at supported technology degree which would at least become employable in Canada as technologist and if they wished then they could also from that point expand to engineering and get an engineering degree and in fact I hired one of my students who's working with me now here in the office and he's since also become a professional engineer so he's thought he took one extra step from the technology that allowed me to employ him to now he's one of my engineers a few opinion questions here and there's no wrong answer but the first one would be do you believe there's a disconnect between the natural resource world and the general public can be anything from mining to metallurgy to the oil industry anything like that it's hard to answer that question I do recognize a bit of a disconnect because I have experienced a disconnect myself when I go on mining sites I know we are there as we are providing dust covers so we're doing an environmental we are acting as an environmentalist to some extent but that is a very limited function where we do dust control but mining by itself and I don't think people realize that mining is not a pretty engagement you know there are things you have to do to the environment to get out the natural products but the disconnect I see that not everybody realizes that yes we do need copper we do need metals and we have somehow in order to get them you need to disturb nature so I see the disconnect there it's very difficult to have that appreciation unless you realize yourself you are consuming metals all the time cars electrical wiring cell phones all these precious metals copper, zinc and coal there are many many many products aluminum all these things they are in the earth and you need to get at them and there's really no nice way of doing it we are contributing in a way we're creating a dust cover so I'm a little bit between we are involved in mining which is not the cleanest operation but at least we're functioning in something that is helping the environment I'm trying to make it cleaner make it cleaner and I guess this alludes to the environment aspect but in your opinion does it prevent people, inventions, contributions disasters, any type of topic really that you think must be mentioned when we talk about the history of the natural resources in Canada big question I think you should stop because I thought I made some so a few closing questions first one is what are you proudest of in life and I can divide that in life and proudest of professionally I can say that the triadic system is here to stay and I'm very proud that I started when I was I think 25 years old when I got involved with triadic and that I've been able to keep it going and keep it fresh and keep it interesting for me for all that time so I'm very proud of that and also that we have been able to employ people in a very amicable way I don't recall any issues with my staff that would be detrimental it's just been a very good experience all this time with triadic and people have always enjoyed working with triadic and when somebody came to me and said you know Bill I'm moving on I'm going to I would always welcome that I said no this is great you see another opportunity take it and I would support them and I said this is what you're good at or if I let somebody go I would say you know this is not working out but you are better at this or that you know so I always gave a positive aspect and that has worked very well for me it's a good philosophy that I now see other people in my group you know senior management people say just always encourage involvement in business or in career and the last question is if you were speaking to someone much younger for example a student what would be the one life lesson or piece of advice you would give them looking for at their career well I have this I can show it to you later I have this plaque which used to be in my office it's now sitting in the middle of our office and and it states that keep it has actually there is a goose sitting under water and I think basically what it says keep calm on top and paddle like hell underneath and this is sort of that's my advice work hard but keep calm paddle like hell underneath this is my philosophy also if you are doing a task I take the worst task first so that the rest is easy I picked the most difficult save the best for last that's good and nice good well thank you is there anything else you'd like to add nothing I don't think well except a sort of a statement about Canada because I'm an immigrant and also when I was teaching those immigrants these new engineers I could identify with where they were at because of where I was at when I was an immigrant and Canada has been very good to me and as I mentioned before I'm one out of 11 children and we came to Canada and all 11 of us have done very well so Canada is still a land of opportunity even now when I'm teaching these students are still in touch with me and they have some good jobs so that's what I would say that is worth mentioning that Canada has opportunities Canada is a very gentle place I think it's certainly for my family and the rest of my family has been very good well I'm happy to hear that makes me proud to be a Canadian also yeah exactly you're welcome