 Good morning to all of us who've joined in here for class. Also good morning and welcome to all those who've joined in from the e-learning course. It's been an exciting couple of weeks just to learn from each one of you here on the online sessions as well as those who've tuned in at the e-learning portal. It's been very encouraging to see interactions, to see questions, thoughts, testimonies and I'm really excited you know as we learn these subjects together. Let's quickly start with a word of prayer and we'll dive right in. Heavenly Father we thank you once again for a bright new day that you have given to us Lord as we enter into class and learn specifically about counseling and the way that you would like us to minister to people. I pray that you will open our hearts to understand. Lord maybe unlearn things that we've understood out of our experience and Lord be in a place of unhelping to unburden, helping to love accept and also groom and bring people to maturity in you. Thank you for the number of people who you're going to bring to our ministry to the way that we also interact. We pray God that we will be a blessing to each one because of what you are putting into us today. We give you all glory and honor in Jesus's name. Amen. Amen. All right so thank you for all those who joined in again. We started off with understanding about the Christian Councilor last week and we kind of stopped in between, we were looking at the principles that a counselor needs to adopt while they are in a counseling relationship. We did the initial four principles and we will quickly look at the next three principles in our first class today. So kindly give me a minute as I just put this as I share the slide. Okay so the last week we had looked at certain attributes of the counselor, we had looked at that in the first part of it, the second part of it we looked at the principles of counseling and if you remember and I hope you've gone back and done a bit of reading and checked out the notes, we did focus on the first four, we looked at individualization, we looked at purposeful expression of feelings, we focused on control emotional involvement and self-determination. Today we're going to look at the next three and wrap up the first part of our session with this. So looking at the next one and let me start off with bringing an example and as usual I'd like us to interact either through chat or you know you could just unmute and speak or for those at the ePortal you know you could put it up at the discussion forum with your answers or with your understanding. So here is a husband talking to you and he says, he says you know I've got all this guilt every time I sleep with this other woman I feel so guilty what can I do about it. Now this specifically is not to you know figure out how we're going to counsel the person but what would our view be about a person who comes to us with with a situation like this. Maybe there's a questionable character, maybe there is a questionable event, maybe there are things that that is completely outside the alignment of what God wants for the life of an individual and in a case like this you're able to see that this person is far away from where God would want him to be. So this is not about how you're going to counsel them but how do you view a person like this who comes to you with issues or with conditions or with circumstances that seem questionable. Would anybody like to a quick observation or thought as to how would you approach somebody who comes in and actually you know tells you something very shocking on your face. Yes Charles please go ahead. There are two areas that I am first considering. If this person that is telling me that they feel guilty are they Christians or they are just people who are not Christians but the guilty is coming to them. Then my first step would be to establish the angle at which I'm going to look at it. If they are Christians then I handle it from the Christian angle. If they are not Christians then I handle it from a non-Christian angle like infidelity if they are non-Christian like they are they are becoming not not faithful to their partners. Two there is greed there is greed because all women are the same it's like all women are like tea there is this lady this man who was working with a certain lady in in a company and this man was always demanding that they sleep together the woman kept on dodging until the woman decided to teach a lesson to the man and said my husband has gone for a business trip tonight let's go so they went when they reached there the lady prepared a very big flask of tea and the first cup she brought was a plastic cup and put their tea and gave the man and the man drank it then he talked and talked and then after some minutes she took off the plastic cup and brought the clay cup and gave him more tea then after that she brought a metallic cup and she gave him tea after the third she asked the man how is my tea baby the man said oh the tea is good it has been coming from the same cup rather from the same flask it's the same then she said even all women are like tea only that we are put in different cups but we are like tea we use the same sugar so I would give him such an illustration and show him the level at which greed is taking them then as a Christian I would also read a couple of verses to support the idea of being unfair and unfaithful with your partner thank you pastor thank you thank you Charles thank you for your thoughts on that and I know that there are some of you who've also written about what you would do someone says you know listen attentively and pray over it another person says that they remember what they studied last year about amputation now if you if you heard carefully my question my question was how would you approach them not the situation now the situation I think we do understand that if it is a Christian yes we back it with the word of God if it isn't then we help them to really explore what they're going through my question was how do you approach a person like this and I think that's where the principle comes about is what we're looking at is the principle of acceptance so no matter what the counseling comes with whatever issue or circumstance that the person comes with there is a recognition of the person there is a recognition that the person has value the person has dignity he has worth he has rights he has needs regardless of what where they may be coming from wherever in the culture they may be coming from the environment they are from the generation they're from the behavior or whatever it is we accept the person for who they are so I just want to trace it back to some of the ways you know in the ministry of Jesus how he dealt with those who were sinners he loved them for who they they were there wasn't a judgment on their character or on or on their personhood sorry on their personhood and that's what we need to look at that so when you accept when you accept a person with all of their erroneous behaviors or characters it doesn't mean that you approve of their behaviors or their standards or their attitudes it doesn't it doesn't mean that if you accept the mispeople that means you accept what they did that is a very very stark difference between the two accepting their mispeople and accepting their behavior so what the acceptance specifically includes is the way that you think and you feel towards them as people and it is definitely expressed in in the way that you serve them right when you think about someone who you're extremely angry with because they did something to you okay maybe it isn't true of you right now but maybe earlier on when someone is done something absolutely unpardonable to you and to be able to delink the two to accept them for who they are as people and to accept their behavior so when we the principle of acceptance shows and helps us to communicate this this one thing that irrespective of whatever qualities or conduct it is an expression of goodwill that you have towards your counseling and any kind of evaluation if that is done it is out of goodwill so it is so what you're doing is you're conveying your concern as well as your understanding of the counseling despite the problem so there may be a behavior which he is hated for or punished by the society and this relationship that he's coming to a counseling relationship can only be effective if there is acceptance of the person so a counselor accepts the individual as a person of dignity and worth and not treat them as a problem and accept the counseling's but being in a place of accepting the feelings or the positive or the negative feelings that the counseling may be going through he accepts the counselor accepts the counseling as they are with their limitations and believes that the acceptance begins as the crux of all help so the counselor does not condemn or feel hostile towards the counseling because his or her behavior is different from that which may be approved of or that which we know is right okay so it is a place where an individual is seen with that dignity with that worth acceptance of them as a person does not mean approval of their behavior or their attitudes or their standards okay so that's the fifth principle the principle of acceptance moving on to the sixth one and I'm here I want to bring another example okay we're going into the sixth principle so the example here is a wife in counseling says I just separated from my husband I'm emotionally involved with another man I'm not sure that my husband and I can work it out I know what my beliefs are but I'm not sure what to do okay so in a scenario like this again what what is this is an maybe it you know it appears again that this person is definitely someone who who's not in a right place okay being separated from their husband emotionally involved with another man again yes acceptance comes in here but this this is also to bring about the next principle of the principle of a non-judgmental attitude okay and this principle is based on the sorry based on the premise of what we read in Matthew chapter seven versus one two one and two and I'd just like to read that for you so that it helps helps all of us so Matthew seven one and two reads stop judging others and you will not be judged for others will treat you as you treat them whatever measure you use in judging others it will be used to measure how you are judged okay so the non-judgmental attitude is a quality of the counseling relationship so the counselor has to be careful to not blame the counseling for the problem like we understood in the principle of acceptance they only help to evaluate the attitudes or the standards or the actions of the counseling but not standing in judgment okay so when you stand in judgment it is it's again it's based on this underlying premise that the helping process precludes assigning guilt or innocence you're not there to make them feel guilty or make them think they're innocent what you're helping them to do is to come to a place of evaluating their attitudes their standards for believers in the line of what God's word says and maybe for those who are unbelievers or who don't know the truth of God to be able to help them explore things that that give that that move them to a place of life or move them to a place of death so I'd still use the principles of scripture even when I deal with someone who's a non-believer maybe I will not bring open the word of God and say you know this is what the word of God says it says do not commit adultery but then I help the individual to make those evaluate judgments about their own attitudes or about their own actions and help them to come to a place of understanding so this principle is based on that premise that we help them to make those evaluated judgments for themselves by helping them reflect on their own attitudes or on their own standards or their own actions or behaviors that that may come about okay moving on to the last principle is this is an example and I will hit straight into my principle it's a teenager who comes in to see you sits down and says I hate my parents they stink and I don't care what happens to them okay so let's say it's it's your counseling room and the parents are standing around right outside and this is what the teenager comes in and says to you would you go to the parents and say hey dad and mom this is what your kid thinks about you your kid thinks that you you stink and that they they hate you okay um what would you what would you do what what should you be doing rather glass are you here with me there's a lot of silence yeah oh you are okay okay all right great okay thank you thank you all of y'all are here lovely okay so uh okay I'll go straight in this brings us to the principle called is the principle of confidentiality okay now this is what is principle of confidentiality mean is to protect the private information that is disclosed to you in a professional relationship or even in a pastoral relationship when someone is coming and sharing their their secrets or their difficulty or their challenges to you you're in a place of keeping it protected and it is something that we see is is a right of a counseling and that's why they come hoping and praying that you know you will not use it as a sermon pointer or as an example on the pulpit or you know or in any other kind of a forum and a lot of people who come that's the first thing they ask will you ensure that what I say to you remains confidential because a lot of times they fear going to other people is because that information is taken and misappropriated okay and it is um so as a professional so you know for those of for me who's done a professional study it is an ethical obligation if I fail that if I violate that that means I have been non-ethical in the way that I have responded to my counselor so it is an obligation towards my counselor to counseling sorry and it is necessary for effective helping because it is only in a safe safe space of trust that a counseling can can open up all that they are going through it is the counselor is a right however this right is always not absolute so what do I mean by this in some cases count confidentiality is can be breached and I will explain to you on what kind of conditions so the first one is this information that the counselor's information is shared with other professional people or persons for the help that they can get so and that's something that is mentioned that you know the case details maybe not not demographic details that is their name their age their place or where they come from what they're doing but case details sometimes need to be discussed with other people or other professional help so that help can be given adequately and holistically and this is something we also do in even in the organizing chrysalis that there may be times that the counselor feels you know different periods where they're either stuck or there is there's something else that they're not able to understand we work together as a team discuss certain cases and look at effective ways of dealing with that another time when it is breached is when there is a threat of harm a threat of life of harm to themselves or to somebody else for example there is someone who comes to use extremely suicidal and is telling you a plan that they are going to kill themselves this is a place that you know so right at the beginning we do mention it to them that everything would be confidential except if there is an assessment if there's a risk of harm towards themselves or towards others so if there is a risk of harm towards themselves or you notice that you know the counseling may be probably stalking somebody or ready to harm or kill someone because because of whatever issues they may be going through in such cases is where confidentiality is breached there again it is always done given by giving information to the counseling that one or two people will be reached out to ensure the safety of life of the counseling or anyone else who may be you know who may be at risk so that's something that is discussed right in the beginning of the session on what are some of the breaches that can work into counseling so that it is one is it is an obligation of whatever information that shared but if there is let's say someone who is suicidal or there is a harm to a risk of harm to someone else there may be either a family member or an employer or someone in authority who needs to know just that detail you know just the detail of you know this person is at risk to himself or is at risk to this person we need to ensure that there is a watch or there is some kind of an additional help that's given so it's only that part of the information that is shared with with other people who who you know the counselor may need to enlist the support and the help from okay so these are so these were the last three skills that we spoke about I'll just quickly put up that list once again oh sorry and there is one more point where usually a written information a written permission is required if there needs to divulge any information to those to anyone else involved so you take a written permission saying that this you know this information may be the information that you are at risk to someone or you know that there is a that is this suppose the the the counseling himself comes to you and says I want you to divulge this information to my employer that maybe I'm mentally ill so we take that permission from them a written permission saying that I permit my counselor to divulge this information to them and you know have it signed because it is often maybe not here in in our country in India as much but then in other countries counselors can be sued if confidentiality isn't maintained to the to the specific situation that is that is that is required to be divulged okay so so going quickly the just moving on those principles we spoke about individualization purposeful expression of feelings controlled emotional involvement self-determination acceptance non-judgmental attitude and confidentiality is there any any question on this if not you know we could move on ahead to the next topic any questions with this what I would what I would recommend all of you to do is in your conversation with people you know even as you're conversing to family or to maybe a church member or to a friend try and keep these principles in mind and see how you can use them in your conversation remember these are not these are more attitudes that we need to have rather than you know doing you can't do acceptance or you can't do non-judgmental right it's it's an attitude that we need to create so I'm I'm challenging all of you in your conversation with people use these seven principles in the way that you engage with people and as you use them you will find that you you actually get better better at them okay yes I think there are two questions Charles and Kennedy yes Charles we can start with you no I didn't I don't have a question all right okay no problem Kennedy I think Kennedy you have a question yeah I have a question yes my question is that in all this process it's not clear to me how do you probe how do you make the consulate to open up to give you accurate information because at times you see they might give you something that is just cosmetic it's not the real if you're not the real problem how do you open how do you make them open in your probe in such a mission you get the basic information that's required to help them thank you okay Kennedy that that involves skills which we are just going to come to we are just what do you say we're just me we're just making things comfortable for us so that we can learn the skills all of what how are they going to open up how are they going to talk all of that comes in the skills which we are yet to get into right so the principles are just the foundation of how we build our attitude we will be coming on to those those pointers in a couple of classes all right okay thank you thank you yeah Samuel you had a question thank you thank you pasta pasta I was wondering where where does a counselor determine the end the exit of a particular case or particular counseling like for example like in most of the scenarios like let's say you know a person on a terminal illness asking you will I die or a husband coming to you and saying I'm guilty of doing this having an affair or a teenager coming and saying I hate my parents so we start with the process the probing and all and and I'm thinking and broadly I'm thinking there's two ways one is we we help the counseling come to the right path and the affair is ended the terminal patient gets to know that he or she's dying and start settling his own affairs the the person the teenager starts reconciliation with the patient so that's that's all you know positive and probably there's a timeline and and you know and some may even take longer but let's say when when things are like when things don't seem to be going in that positive direction when you know like you've tried everything you've followed all the principles you've tried everything but the husband doesn't seem to be wanting to end the affair the the teenager doesn't want reconciliation when when does the counselor determine okay I'm done with this case and I need to probably move on I've done everything I've used all the tools in my bag so so do you do you have a principle that determines I'm going to go to this certain extent and this is when I call it quits so so that's that's a good question and I think there are very many different levels in understanding that but I will try and as best as possible try to organize my thoughts on it so the first and foremost thing when a person when a counselor comes to you the reason that they are there is because they need some help and the help can be very different for one they may have all their thoughts organized and they just need to articulate and talk and express what they're going through and maybe within the first session they've got a good idea as to how they need to work out or deal with their situation okay they may I mean like like this this young woman would come back and say you know I figured this out I know that this is not the way that I'm going so they themselves have come to a place of actually determining that that this is the end right so some some can happen in one session some can come to you where they're absolutely clueless about the way forward or what even is this the the very fiber of their problem so what you're doing there is helping to bring about certain goals what are we looking at you you as a counselor and me as a counselor working together to achieve to have as an outcome so when you help them to look at an outcome you're actually getting that like for example this this man's he says I don't want to feel guilty anymore about sleeping with this person I need to change the way that I that that you know it's haunting me and I need help right so he knows that he needs help he doesn't know what kind of help so he's kind of defined the fact that I want to be rid of my guilt and I want some kind of help so there is where you begin to formulate certain goals alongside with your counsel and and there may be and that's what generally in my session the first thing that I do is I want to know what are you hoping to achieve by the end of our sessions so in that way I get a good frame to understand where they are looking at at changing okay now I may add on certain things like especially when they're believers I may I may say okay this is probably an area that you have dealt with but but do you think there is also let's say maturity in the way that you deal or cope with your emotions is that something that you would like to work on so maybe that's not something that they've seen but something that I've probably picked up and I bring that out to them but of course they have the freedom use the principle of self-determination to decide whether they would want to go there or they are satisfied with what it is and we we we allow that all right now in there are there are some sometimes when they don't they're not looking for an outcome but they're just looking at a place of exploring what they're going through so I'd say the council is generally the one who deals who who leads this who leads the the place of of working through it and in in certain sessions you will begin to see that and I and I think a lot more will be understood as we go on to the next chapter when we look at a person's functioning or or what a person is made up of we look at them at five different areas and and I'll come to that and if you see that they are able to function and cope well in these five areas that's when you would say you know I think this person is doing much better and that's where you kind of bring about a termination so not all cases you would terminate like this but it all really depends on there isn't you know there there aren't watertight compartments on how you deal with the specific counselling they're all in they all are made up so differently with their issues and their needs that you really look at finding out whether these needs and especially in these five areas which we're going to talk about if that's met then then you make the call and say I think this is this is as much as help that I can offer or you've come to a point of place that that you seem to be much better off and that's how you would terminate okay thank you for this one small follow-up yeah I mean a part of what I understand is also a lot of it depends on how far the counselling continues to seek your help and you know continues to engage in this in this relationship format but as a counsellor say you know you you see that you know you far from the goal and the counselling for whatever reason is dropping out or decides to drop out how actively do you do you pursue proactively do you do you seek this person out so and and I think that happens many times a lot of people hope that in their first session you know things will all be sorted out you have a magic pill you say the right words you do the right thing and everything will be sorted out so I blow the bubble right in the beginning I said don't think that's going to happen this is a journey this is a process however there are many times people don't come after the first session but I do I do as a principal I follow up once after every week after every month and then three months and if even after that if I don't find that they may be interested then I just leave that so out of my my own discipline I generally do this if they have not followed up I do this thrice over and but then I've seen very many times because of just the act of actually following up with them many months later or maybe years later they come back and you know they they renew that contact once again and I think that's you know they're ready at that point of time until then you just have to let go and let God thank you thank you all right yes Kennedy I think you have another question Kennedy or Christopher anybody no okay no it's not you Kennedy okay Christopher would you like to bring out your question yes first thank you my question is you know in a in a situation where um someone perhaps you you may know or you know someone who is who comes and wants to get some some level of you know forgiveness from from God for a crime that's already taken place and they know they come to a counselor and use that counselor to you know to kind of mediate with God but a crime has already taken place of example a robbery or you know maybe something worse and because of the confidentiality aspect of it you know what what would a counselor need to do in a typical sort of scenario in a you know in a legal kind of arena you know there's the attorney client privilege that usually should safeguard this confidentiality so just want to understand if this has happened you know in your in your experience and what would one want to do in that in that sort of situation okay so I think what you're saying is in case someone is found in a crime but yet comes to you for help for forgiveness but what would you do would you would you need to report such a such a crime is that is that what you're that's what you're getting to okay all right okay so one of the things that we need to understand also is we are we are also answerable to to the law or or a legal law or your country or your or the law of the land all right so there may be certain instances or certain events that definitely may require that the person does does what's the one I'm not able to get the word owns up owns up their fault or owns up their their their issue and so you may not do it on behalf of the council of the council but again you would probably enlist the the the help of somebody else especially looking at the gravity of the situation like for example let's say it's an abuse it's a sexual abuse and you have the perpetrator right in front of you so you are obligated by legal law to report such cases for many reasons for one that you know letting this the perpetrator out on the loose can can definitely bring harm to those around so doing it wisely and doing it in a way that helps the situation the first form was I mean I think the principle that we attempt to follow is yes let's say if there is a legal for example this is also something that we do put up in our confidentiality in our consent form that says if there is there are questions or there is any kind of a warrant that comes to given details about certain sessions because you know it has a legal aspect to it we are obliged by law to do that right and that's something that is also explained to the council before we do so so we try we do we try and do the best that we can to do it as sensitively as possible but there may be certain things that is a part of the law of the land that we are obligated to do and and that's that's something that we need otherwise what happens is it can land your organization or your councillor into trouble because you've stood in as a as a as a secondary witness to that to that crime right so it looks at the law of the land and I think that's how you would respond but doing it as sensitively as possible in a way that you know that that doesn't break that that relationship like for example I remember I mean I've not had a personal experience of it but then I remember in the hospital that I worked there was someone who had come into the psychiatrist there and we encouraged the person to get in get a lawyer get an attorney and to move the case legally so that's what we would probably do in the best way to help process this as sensitively as possible that goes to I hope I answered your question thank you okay all right okay so we we will move into the next yes Kennedy go ahead go ahead just regarding what the department has asked that the issue of termination of the case just can terminate your very own handling and now there are me sure I did somebody come in and give you for you to care can you can you do some life on that uh sorry Kennedy I'm sorry I didn't follow what you said in relation to what yeah whether someone had asked about termination of your maybe a subject in relation to family ask for the termination of the case is that what you said that the some way some way in relation to what I've asked sorry question for my question oh okay in uh yeah oh in what Samuel asked oh my gosh okay all right sorry yeah so yeah once again what is the question in relation to what someone asked for me first question somebody's coming and sleep or somebody's here while you're giving relative care how do you support that kind of termination okay Kennedy may please request you to put the question on chat I'm not able to pick up what you ask really sorry please please kind of just put it on chat yeah I'm waiting yeah okay uh so I think till we wait for uh Kennedy to come back in what I'd like to um what I'd like to do is uh you know we can take an early break um because the next part of the lesson is a is a little bit long and I do want to cut it off um and I'd like to just you know take it in one flow so would would your mind if we take a break earlier um it's 10 45 on my clock and we can come back at 10 55 and we can go ahead starting off with the new the next chapter so uh I hope that's okay with you all and Kennedy please put down your question in the next hour we will we will deal with that so I'll meet you all we'll meet back at 10 55