 Thank you very much. Thank you. I am a little bit overwhelmed because most of my stay in Germany has always been in the periphery so whenever I come to the center I have to take a little bit of time to get myself used to. It's all about the refugee or asylum policy in Germany is to keep people within the peripheries. Cut off and it takes them seven, eight, nine, ten years, took me 17 years to come back to the center. So it's an opportunity for us to say what has been our experience as refugees in Germany but not only as refugees but people who have tried to see what we can do from our perspective to bring a little bit of solutions to the refugee problem. Even though we are a little bit disappointed that the civil society has not taken a bold step towards this kind of concept. My name is Chouheben and you are? I am Ima. And I came to Germany in 1998 and I asked for political asylum and I was sent to a place called Eisenuttenstadt. And actually in Eisenuttenstadt I had to go through the normal process of I call it normal because most refugees go through this process which is fingerprinting, photographing, removing your shoes, where the fingerprint, all the cameras, the barbed wires and soon later we started realizing that it was more about fear, it was more about intimidation and we started getting a little bit of information on what asylum really means in Germany from the leg up perspective which is that you are very much restricted to live within a certain area and that you are not allowed to get contact as easily as possible with the civil society. And after three months in this place I was sent to a place called Muchenberg which is an overgangs von Heim and it's actually not in Muchenberg, it was actually out of Muchenberg in some kind of an abandoned building, a former military camp. And we started calling the others and asking them if they have the same situation like me. So we found out that the situation was like that to everybody and when I came to this camp I was told that you are not allowed to go out of this district, you are supposed to use food vouchers, you are not allowed to work, you are not allowed to go to school and we couldn't believe that I mean being in a first world or a democratic country like Germany just because of your statue, you are not allowed to go to school, you are not allowed to go through a certain area, you are virtually every motivation as a young man, as a young woman to want to grow is systematically being destroyed and we couldn't accept this. So we came together some few of us and said we should form some kind of a small structure from the refugee perspective to go out to our German friends to explain to them essentially what is the laws on refugee, particularly dealing with their living conditions or how they survive on a day to day basis. Not just about reading the law but how do we survive. And we spent a lot of years, we did a lot of demonstrations, we did a lot of workshops, seminars in the universities, going around and talking but after two years some of us found out that we are easily pulled out there to go and talk about our problems, we do a lot of actions but when we come back to these socially quarantined places called Ube Gangtvonay we were completely cut off, we were weak, most of our friends don't really know where we leave and what is the real situation and so me and some of the others we said we should work, we should try and empower ourselves, we should look on a structure that has to, we should develop a concept that has to do with pulling the civil society from the center back to the periphery where the refugees live. And parallel to that I used to have phone calls or sometimes from my family in Africa and they'll say Eben can you give me your email address because email is cheap, mobile phone is expensive, we can't call you and I didn't know how to tell them that where I'm living I don't have access to computer. Actually I've never touched a computer and I found it a little bit shameful that you are in Germany and you've never used a computer or you cannot access a computer and I talked to some of our political friends, some young students at the Technical University in Berlin that how is it possible that I can go and learn how to use a computer. And they told me that well Eben there is a little place in Berlin at that time around 1999, 2000 in Grunbegastrasse so call it low-tech and that you could go there and explain to them that you want to learn how to use a computer. So I went there and talked to them and said that well it's not only me as Eben that I have this problem but I found out that many refugees have the problem they want to you know communicate with your family, get information, just basic information on how you can find your way out in a new environment. And they said well we have only five PCCA you could come here and actually come and learn how to create an email, use a computer. So I went back to the students and said well I live in Brandeburg and I don't know how to come to Berlin. So they said well Eben we'll see how we can help you. And that's how the five first refugees came to Berlin to Grunbegastrasse. For three months we learned how to use a computer on basic things, create an email, how to access search engines, get information and then our idea was that we should go back to the heim and see how it is possible for us to install or put such communication access within these spaces to help the majority of the refugees. And that's how that's how we actually went after three months I got the knowledge and then I went back to the heim. At that time in Potsdam there was a there was a heimleiter who was a little bit more open to refugees and so I explained to her that this is our idea we want to create we need a space in the refugee homes to see how possible it is for us to bring to install communication access. And I asked her is it is it by law in Germany that refugees should not have communication access within the heims. And she says no there is actually there is no law. The problem is that who will pay for it and who will take care of it because they don't want they don't they want less work in the heims as much as possible. And so I said well we've answered that question we can take care of it ourselves and we don't have a problem of who will pay for it because our supporters are going to do that. Then there was a third problem we had to write to the administration to explain to them exactly what we want to do. So she says well I will help you formulate the letter and we can write to the Auslan W order to say well we don't want to form terrorists it's just for people to get information and that. And so we wrote and they accepted and that's how with our friends with students we also had to write to the trigger the people who actually are running the heim to get their permission. At that time it was Martesa and we wrote to them and they accepted because we wanted the concept to be very free from the administration. So they in the corporations fair and borrow or the contract we wrote with the trigger of the heim is very explicit we wanted them to give us just a room only room it means we had to put our own connection our own internet connection where the computers were brought by us it was given to us by our supporters we did that we installed them with with Linux to Ubuntu and we had to run the internet cafes ourselves and they accepted the contract and so we took our boreholes with our friends and that's how we succeeded in building the first internet cafe in the whole of Germany in the Fluschling's Heim and then it progressed to other places looking for the Prince Lau, Bad Beelzeisch, Berlin-Marienfelde, Berlin-Hellersdorf, Eisen-Hutenstadt, Rattenau. Now our idea of creating the internet cafe as I explained before was not it's not just an internet cafe it's because we found out that there is we had to devise a means to bring the civil society into these so-called socially quarantined areas we were looking for a means to break the isolation that we are not only pulled to the center to come and do demonstrations and seminars and explain our problems but how could we bring you into these places where not that we are much comfortable but that these spaces is actually a free space for us within a control space because the haemlighting cannot come into those places without our permission we we had the power within this space and that was very important for us and it's still very important for us I would say that why do refugees need internet most I mean there are so many reasons I can stay tonight why refugees need internet the most they need it for information basically arriving in a new environment an environment where legally and also in a very high degree the civil society is very not so welcoming very patronizing and sometimes really very obstructive on the other side you have a very difficult legal situation where you are not allowed to go to school you're not allowed to move out of the district you are forced to live within a very difficult environment they need it so that they can get information at least basic information about the asylum process networking with their families having possibilities for alternative education why is it very important for refugees to have these spaces if you look very well the idea of us trying to build a internet cafes is very much in the direction of empowerment empowerment we were trying to find a means where we could within this very difficult context have a space where we could then start to become participative in the German civil society from our perspective where we could start bringing little bits of solutions from our perspectives where we could orientate ourselves very much on various things that we will hope or we wish to do in the future so we were trying to derive a means into this very difficult places that we could in the little opportunity we have through the internet to develop skills and I bet you you all know you are experts on the internet what refugees could do if 14 years ago since we started now the government is a little bit afraid about internet and refugees because there are lots of things they are realizing politically can be done but in the beginning when we started we showed more about the social aspect of giving access to refugees and a lots of things we could have done from the inside and which I will talk a little bit in the little means we have what we have tried to do with the internet apart from just having computer classes would have created a lot of platforms we access in refugees emancipation with the internet cafes we have about two to three thousand refugees every day use the project imagine if we had developed alternative platforms or refugees creating their own platforms within the spaces to reveal their situation how they live on a daily basis imagine what could have been the multiplicator effects not that people I do encourage people to come from outside but it would have been great to have this concept of internet cafes within the refugees home backed by politicians because actually you don't need anything from the home lighting if we have the political support to push in the agenda of independent internet cafes within refugees homes we could have used it as alternative forces to reveal how people sleep in the rooms what is the sanitary and problems in their homes the kinds of food we could even help refugees before they even do their interviews because we make a lot of mistakes because of lack of knowledge on how the asylum process goes but if we could install as we have done in Eisenut instead they could have been possibilities online to help refugees to communicate with lawyers to give them instructions on what they have to say on what they don't have to say all of this is possible to be done now this is what we have done but we've had a lot of difficulties I have been in a situation where I've gone to a home a home lighting has called us and said please we've heard about this very good project can you come and put an internet here well he thought in his mind our refugees emancipation is a very big German organization and probably that it's a white guy was a coordinator so when I came he was surprised that actually I was an African and that I could not even speak German and immediately he changed he said well if I allow you to put the internet here are you gonna install something that I can control all the emails and I was shocked but I wasn't really shocked because I already know the mentality because I've heard from a lot of officials being scared about refugees having access to internet and I told him well we can do that in refugees emancipation and you have no responsibility in terms of anything that happens when the refugees use the internet because we have a cooperation's fair and by room we have a contract that clearly states that we are responsible all your responsibility of God is to give us a space and that's all we need now why is it very important that we build a space it's important that we build a space because as I said before refugees have to feel that they are participating in a process it's important that you don't also have this feeling that you are just coming to the home to give something and I think that once our experience are shown once there is this participation from the refugees when there's this acknowledgement that this project is their project will you realize that we will not have much problem about thinking that computers will be missing or you know having problems of what many people do think or from the administrative side that is insecure to have this hardware's in these places I think on the other side also it's important that we acknowledge that when refugees have these spaces they feel and they know they run it and they know it's their own they feel more secure also on using on putting information which is very personal to them we have been we've been a little bit disappointed that after 14 years we still have very limited asylum homes with internet access actually if you look at the percentage I'm not sure it's up to two or three percent why is this happening why is it that the civil society has not seen a very important instrument that we should not only have discussions about the laws but we should find a means on how we could empower refugees through the internet why is it that we have not tried to go into this isolated places and try to develop a concept from within you know that can expose the daily living conditions of the refugees through the internet why is it that we are not able to form refugees who can then develop various platforms from within because if you carry a camera and go into the Himes virtually the Heimleiter gets immediately frightened and would not allow you but refugees if they are formed and if they have the knowledge and the basic support we could produce all this information from the inside we could give you live pictures today from an asylum home from parents with six children living in a six-square-meter or 10-square-meter room you could see all these things live from inside and our peer player today is that the internet or creating internet cafes is a very important instrument in the fight for the rights of refugees our player today is that you can see on how you can support refugees emancipation or how you can build such kinds of concepts within the area that you do live and as I have said it is very practical it's easy if you go as an individual it might be difficult if you go as just supporters it might be difficult because the administration will look as you as a third force coming into the Heim to challenge them but we could build forces within we could encourage refugees to create self structures and these self structures could then be supported from outside which means that we have to find a means to really empower refugees it means finding a means to provide them with basic necessities especially how do you stabilize them to stay in an area to follow a concept to follow a project not only a political propaganda not only going to one demonstration and coming back but how do we find a means to run a permanent project like an internet cafe in efflutions won't I believe very strongly that we could break the knot from the inside but you have to disempower yourself to empower the refugees you have to be fully motivated because empowerment is not a one-day thing it's a permanent engagement and when I'm talking to you tonight I want you to see that the concept of refugees accessing internet has to be a permanent support has to be something which you have to be do you have to commit yourself on trying to give them this knowledge trying to allow them to come to the civil society through this new development new platforms that they can it's easily done by everyone if they are given the knowledge I how can you support us I can you support a concept like refugees emancipation or any other concept which has to do with empowering refugees from our experience we have seen that there are many times we have approached and said all we need is for you to give us an empty room that's all we need but they say no they refuse we try to ask the reason they bring all kinds of reasons we don't have space it's not possible the people here will steal all their computers we say well it's not about you running the internet cafe it's about us running the internet cafe but they still refuse and I think that that's not fair internet is not a luxury it's a necessity especially for refugees so how do we push politicians around the areas that we don't live how do we develop a political concept to make all asylum home independent of their own decisions that refugees so far as you can give them the support on how to get the hardware's how to pay for the bills and how they can run the places themselves why should it become an obligation for every time to have such a free space so there is this political support which is highly needed and which you have to commit yourself to push the politicians that it can push the heim lightings why am I saying politicians because I have seen situations where sometimes the heim administrations are positive but the community or the politicians being afraid of a negative reaction from the community on saying that refugees are free they have internet for free they have everything for free they put a lot of pressures on the heim trigger and the heim lighters are changed and they start becoming negative they start putting more restrictions on the refugees so it's important for us to have the political support and to make the concept to become part of a political decision when they are building a flushing sign or any flushing sign which is already built and that they should have a space for internet for refugees I think this is number one which is very important number two how do we now try to see how we could then use this space for different forms and ways that refugees could develop their own platforms it's it's very important that first of all the people have the concept that this is our space and so much of the things which you're going to do has to be given to them or they have to take the responsibility which means that it's it's very practical to call refugees and say where guys come together and what do you want for yourself is having internet in the heim a good idea and I bet you everybody will say that's a perfect idea and then you can say okay if you need more information you can invite us from refugees emancipation to assist or you can say well we want to form a walking group within the refugees and from day one the people know that okay we are making the decisions about our internet space and I think from there the demand or the desire to have an internet will come from inside and they can then now maybe approach whatever whether it's the heim administration or it's the people from the administration they aren't these walking group would create a positive atmosphere from the refugees and I think stage three of course will be the practical ways on how then can we make it possible which is the materials giving the materials human resources which we find sometimes very difficult to get because as I said empowerment needs commitment so if you see even I want to come to the Heim in Eisenut and start and help the people to see how they can use internet to get basic information about the German civil society to access lawyers or for whatever platform maybe teach people how they can write their articles to they don't get articles don't need to be written by Ted parties to Junals or whatever then you need to commit yourself time and money to go to these places so we need and we find that lots of people can be politically active but when it counts sometimes in terms of empowering people it's difficult for them to be engaged for a long time definitely we need finances there are lots of problems for us running the internet cafe as a self-organized group we are not very much implanted there's a lot of very difficult patronizing that there is a patronizing mentality in the civil society refugee organizations are most of the time just for mobilizing as mobilizing agent Eben comes to me shine palm and roofing for Ina demonstration and when you start occupying space from our experience in refugees emancipation when you start becoming a refugee organization that you are developing a structure and you are you started to really creating such platforms where refugees are independent then setting groups start feeling very uncomfortable about the space you are complying and the power so we have a lot of problems as a self organized group we have language problems we have financial issues there are many people where sometimes we like to do things ourselves that's part of our empowerment there are many foundations or stiff dunks sometimes when we call and I can't express myself in German it's just closed it's real most of these things are there most of our support come from students virtually from students and as I said sometimes we really feel sad about this because we are actually working with the grassroots we are actually bringing solutions to the people who really need it but a reaction from the civil society has been very lukewarm we've got a lot of support but it's been very lukewarm and we think this is this is not supposed to have been like this it could have been better and that's why we are here today we are here to say it is possible to work with refugees to develop concepts in which they can install internet cafes that can bring solutions to thousands and thousands of people I had an I had an experience with the with a home lighter whereby we said okay we have a small internet cafe it was just about 10 computers for 250 people so we needed a beamer and since he is exposed because none of them none of them that's why most people don't even know about refugees emancipation none of them when they have visitors who come to their home you see yeah we are having here an internet cafe to explain that they are better than other refugee homes but they never say that the internet cafe is organized and installed by refugees themselves they never say that so I had explained I said since you are always receiving people from outside who wants to donate we need a beamer and we don't know how to get a beamer to say she's kind of problem is physical so he called me one day and said well she'll I've got a beamer can you come over so when I came I saw the press was there and we took photos and they gave the brother big plaque written the 2,500 euros from Loto so I took the photo I heard the plaque and I they got me the pictures and then when the journalist went and he say Heshoo can you can you give it to me I said why I said why is for us I said why is it for you he said well they have given it the check is for us we will buy the beamer and we will install it in the internet cafe and when we need it we will use it we will take it when you need it you will use it so having an experience on their mentality which is they are always finding a means to get into the room to get into the internet cafe to control who should be the fan what Lisha in the internet cafe I knew already what it was trying to do so I said well I have told you that we are a registered leg out registered organization in Germany and if you want to give us something give us as a gift we don't want anybody anyone to put something in the internet cafe which they will use as a means to interrupt what we are doing in the internet cafe I say since the check has been given to you it's not very fair of you because you know what we stand for and I told you in the beginning I just give you this as an example of how even when we have an internet cafe how difficult it is to run it from an independent perspective how difficult the idea in the whole sometimes from the civil society but also from the administration how self-organized group could then become or go into the center stage and expose their situations or occupy a space where they can feel comfortable to empower themselves and I have many examples I don't know I would just say that the internet is such an important instrument creating platforms or free spaces in the refugee homes for refugees for their empowerment is very important and I say it is possible if you put a lot of interest if you come out and really say we want to do something about this and that it is possible and I've just tried to explain to you I don't know if I missed any point on yeah I would like to talk about what is our future perspectives I think I already said some things about them already definitely we want to create the internet cafes as a free space but as a space where and it is a space where you don't have to go through the Hyme administration to come to the internet cafe you have no binding to go through the Hyme administration to come to the internet cafe means if you are coming to Eisenut and start you don't need to go to the Hyme administration or to the Auslander beholder you come and say I'm going to the internet cafe and you come directly to the internet cafe so what are we trying to do we are trying to create a space whereby you can come directly with an idea with a concept and say okay Evan this is my concept or this is what we can do together and see how we can make this space a space to empower people a space where people can alternatively acquire knowledge a space where we can exchange exchange knowledge we are trying to use the advantage we have in having internet cafes in the Hymes to build apps for example whereby refugees can download these apps to have basic informations on how they can have their way around the German civil society or how they can get interview translations how they can be accompanied to the foreign office how what is the nearest place where they can get alternative health attention how can they are children go to schools we think that we have this advantage that we are already in this basis and if we can develop such a concept it could easily spread and this can become an important tool for refugees to use Germany there is a from the cccb there is a support group which will definitely talk to you in details on Sunday yes there is there is a campaign that will be done I think end of September end of September to talk to you more in details how you can how you can support refugees emancipation whether it's as I said financially politically material human resource or otherwise or to come to the I'm or contact us and see what concept you have that we can use the internet to give this concept to refugees but we have a website also which is refugees emancipation.com you can if you go to contact you can get our email address but you can also give us a call and maybe we can talk in details what ways you want to help us now and on Sunday Sunday the 15th yeah they come at the at the bedroom there will be a discussion on from the support group of refugees emancipation on how you could support the project as I said we are here and we will fight say loud and say it clear refugees are welcome here say loud and say it clear refugees are welcome say loud and say it clear refugees are welcome here say loud and say it clear refugees are welcome here thank you with the help of our computer and smartphones we can communicate every day with friends family and public communication and inform us we don't want to further know something new learn and continue to build and talk and organize and let us keep ourselves free imagine that would be no longer self-sacrifice do the refugees have access to the internet no no no directly the social day and jobs and they don't give us too much money so we are not being able to go outside and to buy something for us like internet packages it's so very hard you know we don't have any contact with your family the internet cafe brings all these people together the exchange experiences and then there's this intercultural exchange which is very important for their self-confidence and how to move on in the asylum process refugees emancipation is the best thing that has happened in Berlin Brazil internet is not a luxury it's a necessity especially for refugees with very difficult legal situation for the past 14 years self-organized group refugees emancipation has been trying to do this let's put our hands together to make it happen let's do it now so as i didn't even need my timing cards we have a lot of time for questions answers so please if anybody has a question go to the microphone on the left or on the right side and i will call you up then let's start at that corner i i want to thank you very much for reminding us to listen to what other people need i think a lot of times we bring technical solutions without knowing what those needs are i had a couple of questions one may have been answered because i came in late i'm wondering what these refugees do have and do with mobile devices and then my other question is i'm obviously from the united states i'm wondering if you're aware of similar movements in other countries your question is what do refugees do with mobile devices and if we have such a similar movement in other countries that was right here yeah my answer to this is i come from a purely activist background so in terms of true statistics i might not really be correct but from my experience is that mobile devices is not as common as people might think that all refugees do have mobile devices they don't have mobile devices and i think from when you talk to most refugees they don't bring anything or most of it is taken away from the from the pot of entry and very few of them have the possibilities to buy these devices here so i would say it's to me it's about five percent of refugees who could have mobile devices but we have had our experience in terms of refugees using mobile devices is that most refugees from they watch a lot of they talk a lot with their family they watch a lot of entertainment from their home countries music or do some video stuffs and this needs a lot of download and it's very difficult for them to really have complete access to the internet um i would say that it's not really a very we cannot really go into conclusion it's very difficult to say that all refugees have got mobile devices that's not true as i have said it's difficult the second question is that about the do we have similar movements it's i think it's not easy to do a project from an empowerment perspective because the situation of the refugee is very fluid it's very unstable and that's one of the challenges in refugees emancipation is that we have to run an everyday project years over years where there are lots of very complicated things involved you know the materials people are coming sometimes is their first time to use the computer so we always have mouses which are broken keyboards broken had this broken you constantly need someone to go to the heims as a technician to do the repairs um we don't have that kind of money and and that's part of our difficulty you have a situation where you have people from 30 different countries meeting in a room and they have to run the space within a very difficult environment where the heim leitun plays on a benny we we policy which is refugees who can report other refugees who are dank bar are giving favor so there's a lot of conflict and we have to manage a concept from a very independent perspective i would say that refugees emancipation is only on its kind in germany and europe as i know we are the only project that has come out with a concept which is on an everyday basis within this very highly actually we are the only organization alternative organization running in a afname centrum which is a reception center in the whole of germany uh there was one organization that tried to install internet in munchen the afname central and they were rejected we are the only organization and we've done it in eisenutenshta which can be a big help to refugees to support them before they can even do their interview on very important issues so i would say that to the best of my knowledge refugees emancipation is the only organization that has developed and implemented and that has rounded for more than 14 years such a concept second question please hi could you give an example how you collect the money on a regular basis to run an internet cafe your question is how we collect the money to run the internet cafes as i said all of our money comes from spend there and all come from students up to down and that's why everything in organization is done on a voluntary basis and it makes it more difficult because we get far costing for somebody we bring him to post them we train him for three months on how to run an internet cafe and then the next day he has an opportunity in hamburg he's gone and we have to look against somebody so it's it's a it's all we have got is comes from student that's the first thing the second thing is that the civil society has an issue when it has to do with a self organized group that is trying to build an opinion and this is the whole thing can refugees have an opinion in the german civil society this is the question we have to ask are people afraid for them to occupy space where they can refer to and say this is what has happened in aze won't start but to answer your question all our money to now come from spending from student organization then i say a question right after that by myself where can we throw money at you your question is where i'm from where can we throw how can we throw money to you okay well we have a website if you go to the website you'll see our account number and you can give us donations to account we are a fair right which means that we can always issue back spend equity or whatsoever you get something to add yeah a second question um how you how do you organize the internet cafe for example in eisenhüttenstadt as far as i know it is a erstaufnahme yeah and i think the people there will go away after a few weeks or months how do you organize that that the internet cafe runs these years what what we did was it's very i was in a flushing time for seven years i stayed seven years in this country and in a very difficult time where you could not do anything actually i got a scholarship i did not talk about myself but the australian beholder rejected me to go to school that was a personal motivation in trying to seek from the civil society what ways i can alternatively build myself so i i learned through political engagement how to connect now when we went to eisenhüttenstadt and told authorities we want to install an internet cafe they asked the same question they said it's not possible the people here just stay for one month or three weeks and they go away and they're gonna steal everything they are dangerous they are not good so i told the authorities you don't need to worry about that all we need from you is to give us a free space give us a room the rest we're gonna take care and as i said i had a meeting i called all the refugees we sat down and i said guys do you want an internet cafe here and they said yes we want to write an internet cafe it's okay if we want an internet cafe that we're gonna do it ourselves so of course i gave them the the cooperations fea and baron the statue which they read and it gave us responsibilities for anything like fire insecurity illegal downloads or what you can think the administration is worried about i said legally you are not in charge of the internet cafe the internet cafe is owned by refugees emancipation and we together with the refugees from that beginning in terms of participation they also participated in terms of installing their programs doing their connection and that's how we started then we have a meeting we said what are the rules what rules do we want our internet cafe to have people said we don't want people to drink we don't want people to smoke okay who are the people who are going to volunteer to be as the responsible of the internet cafe we had one guy from africa one from syria and one from i think from afghanistan and that's how we started and soon after we built a tradition and the refugees when you are being transferred you form the next one and up to six years today going seven years that's how we're on the internet cafe that's how we run all the internet cafe once you've been planted into the mind of the refugees once they know it is their project they hand it over to the next and that's how we function and the coordination takes place from the office so if a computer is broken they send us an email and then i will write to one of our german supporters who say we have a problem in the internet cafe in eisenholtenstadt and then they say okay eben i will have time in two weeks or one week and they go to eisenholtenstadt and they do the repair that's how we function yeah there are about 2000 people in eisenholtenstadt we have about 15 computers which is the only place where the refugees can meet is the only place where the share information is the only place where people do not go along with the policy of the system which is to make people be isolated and if i'm a cameroonian i walk only with cameroonian if i'm syria walk only with syria but in the internet cafe people are able to come together and share with one another experiences and different things another question first of all thank you guys very excellent work um we're doing something very similar so we uh five o'clock in hamburgs plus refugees and uh i was wondering if you could give us advice because you made one very important point when you said uh integrate refugees to give them to empower them give them the feeling it's theirs they can do whatever they want so how do you do that exactly what kind of tests do you give them or what do you do to give them the feeling that it's they are cafe and they are in charge okay the question was uh uh do people do a similar project in hamburg and giving refugees internet and how can you give them the feeling of empowerment uh it's it's it's uh it's through our discussion you realize that we talked about giving refugees internet but as a self-organized refugee group our main objective is how then can they use the internet in terms of empowering themselves politically and individually what you can learn individually but also politically and we think that the participative side of it is very important because we've tried with wireless we've given wireless but we realize that people stay in their room and they do download for 24 hours and they continue with this the the the line of the policy of the government which is to isolate people and they go to this same channel they go to specific channels which the government wants them to go to get information and what we are trying to say there is a lot of alternative information out there but you need a space where you can come together and so what I will say is that it's good to build an agri group it's good to fortify this agri group it's good to make them to participate from the beginning so that the build is confident that it is their thing it is not given from outside for let's do a second last question I I want to invite you to come to the hacker spaces and to take part in the other kind of self-organized community of the people who are alien in their own culture that feel a bit strange and they gather together and organize themselves in so-called hacker spaces or hack labs and it would be wonderful if the refugees and hackers could mix together and not stay separate that that's my invitation and the second thing is in Holland where where I currently live in Amsterdam there is this movement called we are here which is the undocumented asylum seekers that were kicked supposed to be kicked out of the country and they don't have anywhere to go so they are also organizing themselves and having the campaign to say hello we are not invisible we are actually also living here and it would be nice if you can thank you first of all I want to thank you for the invitation and I think that that's one of our goals one of our goals is unfortunately we could come here only the two of us I am not I'm not a technician actually I'm an activist and all I do is develop the concept look at the political situation negotiate with the highman administration try to organize the refugees that we continue with the project from our perspective but there are lots of refugees with a lot of knowledge about computing lots of and we can do wonderful things if we have your support building our own statistics from the Aufnahme Center on what how people can be directed into these alternative spaces but we need your support completely so I would say that yes these are concepts which can be developed in the future on the other question yes we would like to network with other groups in Europe and elsewhere and the last question yeah not a real question but a small reminder as two already said we're gonna meet on Sunday at 15 o'clock in the BER dome that's over there and try to bring people together from the camp on the from the campsite who work in refugees group to share experiences and see how we can work together with refugees not it's not about charity but working together from my point of view and we'd like to invite everyone here to come by and discuss with us so I now close the talk and please give me a very very warm applause for Chu and Ima