 In this episode we'll be talking about the role we play as a design community in the topic of climate change. We'll talk about why we must look beyond human-centered design and understand its limits and finally, do we as designers solve problems or are we actually creating them? Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Anand and this is the service design show. Hi, my name is Mark and welcome to the service design show. This show is all about helping you do more things that make you proud by designing and delivering services that are good for people and business. My guest in this episode is a designer, a futurist and the co-founder of SuperFlox, which is a design and foresight organization in London. Her name is Annette Jane. The main theme of this episode is how the current perspective on and the conversation around human-centered design is potentially causing more harm than it actually does good and what we can do to change that. Not your average day topic regarding service design, but I think it's a super important one. So, without any further ado, let's jump straight into the interview with Annette. Welcome to the show Annette. Thank you for having me. Super cool to have you on the show. I was just checking my email and the first time we actually got in touch was all the way back in 2008 when you were doing what I would call I would find that in a service design project, but we said we're going to elaborate and look far beyond service design but yeah, that's a long time ago. Definitely, yeah. It was probably my graduating project. Was it the Yellow Chair project? The Yellow Chair. I'm curious if it's still online. Yeah, nearly 14 years ago now. Wow. Annette, for the people who don't know who you are, could you give like a 30 second introduction? Sure. So, I'm Annette Jane. I'm a designer and co-founder of a London-based studio called Super Flux. I'm also a professor of design investigations at the University of Applied Arts in Vienna. And a lot of my work explores how we can bring different possible futures closer to the present. Cool. And that is also I think the central theme for this topic. Again, we'll be expanding beyond service design and I always like the episodes that are on the fringes of that. So, we're going to do interview Jazz and I sort of quickly prepared just before the episode. So, we're going to improvise. Are you ready? Yeah, sure. All right. I have the first topic that hasn't been in any of the 33 episodes before and this topic is about climate change. Do you have a question starter? And can you show it and what kind of questions do we get around climate change? How can we as designers not think about this topic? Because we aren't thinking about it enough? Yeah, I mean that is already telling that if it's 73 episodes so far this topic hasn't come up. You're absolutely right. It is something that's not on the minds of other designers that you've interviewed. It does not mean that it could be on their minds and they have decided not to speak about it. I'm guessing that's probably more like it because I think nobody today can escape this. It's not a topic. It's not a theme. It's our lives. It's the lives of future generations. We are in a crisis. We can deny it as much as we want but if you were to look at all sort of facts that the IPCC report have brought out it is clear that we are on a very steep downhill trajectory if we don't start doing something actively about it. What can we do as a design community? What is our role in this field? That's a good question. I mean I ask that to myself all the time. I think designers can do a lot. I think we have a lot of tools and methods that we can apply to. One, bring awareness about this topic. Secondly, design more sustainable products and services that are not becoming obsolete so that they last longer so we lose less resource. Thirdly, understand supply chains better and understand that anything we design has a knock-on effect and has an implication on the climate and the environment. There are a lot of things. I think designers actually are part of the problem that we are in today as climate change. We have been responsible for creating products for the consumerist society that are opposite to sustainable. Makes sense. How do we reverse that? What kind of mindset or attitude do we need to adopt to fix what we've created? I would say that we are part of the problem. I don't think we've created this problem as such. I don't think we should say that we are fully responsible for solving this problem. I don't think it's a problem that can be solved but it's a challenge we need to address. I try to think about it as do what we can and be more actively involved in trying to do what we can. Start taking active stance about the ethical positions of the organizations you have created or worked with. Try and work more with climate-related projects. Try and challenge the practices of your clients that do not feel sustainable. Do some audits and checks about the ethics of organizations you work with. There is so much you can do. Basically be more critical about this topic, right? Yeah, be more critical, be more aware, be more proactive. Are there any projects, designers, initiatives that inspire you? Is there anything we can get that gives you hope that we'll be able to make progress? I don't know whether I could point that as designers but there is so much work out there. There is so much work around upcycling, recycling. There is so much around looking at the whole local growing food movements, the transition town movements. These are all extremely powerful ways in which people are trying to make a difference. The only problem is the financial incentive. Somehow our current economic system is so weirdly broken that things that come from California to the UK are strangely cheaper than things I could get from my local farmer. And that's because of the incentives that the roads and transports get, the incentives that are embedded in the system support this kind of non-environmental friendly behavior. So then it's about trying to create systems and services that actually financially incentivize local farmers so that what we can grow and get locally for instance in terms of food is equivalent even in the pricing. Makes sense and I think although we didn't start out with services down here, this really has a lot to do with systems thinking, service thinking and how operations work, how logistics work. So I think we should with our skills of be able to at least contribute to this point. One final question regarding this. You already gave some hints, but if people want to really move forward with this, what are some resources that they could look at? Where should they start looking? What is your inspiration? I mean, I think on one level is really important to familiarize yourself with the data available. So don't shy away. Look at the IPCC reports. Look at the work that is done by decision towns. Look at the work done by local organizations in your neighborhoods that are trying to create awareness. I mean, I couldn't point to one or this is a website one resource, but it's all around you if you want to start paying attention. And I think it's good that we finally addressed it here on the show. So finally, I'm ready to move on into topic number two, because this will be a controversial one. It seems it seems like it should totally fit into the show because this topic is human centered design. And again, do you have a question starter? So my question starter would be, what if we move beyond human centered design? Or what if we stop thinking of what if we give up the idea of human centered design, even more controversial? Please explain. But maybe don't give up. I think so I think connected to this climate thing. I've been thinking a lot about the idea of human centered design and I think human centered design has a place in the world. It helps us really understand very closely the needs and the desires and anxieties and hopes of people for whom we are designing. And that can lead to more empathic, more sort of kind of the sort of right things that people would really want. So I think there's a role for that, you know, when you are designing a sort of a device for a visually impaired person, you want to be doing it from the point of view of that person. But my concern is that we've taken it so far and we have embedded this idea of human centered design in line with how the world operates. So we think of the human as the center of the universe. And so this is a very anthropocentric perspective or point of view where we put the human as the center of everything. And that is problematic. And I think increasingly I've been kind of being very inspired by a lot of anthropologists and multi-species ecologists and been trying to understand this kind of idea of what I'm calling the more than human centered design. And it could be a lot of other people have talked about it and you may have different terms for it. But the idea is how can we move past or how can we move above this anthropocentric view to consider ourselves as one amongst many other species in the universe or on the planet. So that when we designing just from the point of view of humans, we may make compromises in terms of the ecology of the environment. Yes, let's dam the rivers because we need more waters because humans need more water or whatever. And that may not be good because that water which was going to a lot of other species that was keeping a whole other ecological system alive has abruptly been cut off. And so I think that's why my whole idea of this, you know, we are part of the problem is that we think of design as problem solving and when we are solving one problem, we're actually creating other problems. And so actually I want to move beyond this problem solving paradigm as well because we are not, we shouldn't be under this hubris that we are problem solvers at that kind of scale because that gives us a lot of power and with power comes responsibility. So it would be good to kind of get more humility, step back a bit and consider our role better. Our role as humans. Our role as humans but our role as designers because we put things out of the world that affects other people and affects the planet. So we have a role and a responsibility as designers. I think in one of the episodes, if I'm not mistaken, it was with Mauricio Manias. He said like, it sort of has been proven already that human-centered design will lead to destroying our planet. That's basically, yeah. So there should definitely be something else in the center rather than the human. Is there anything, it seems, I have the feeling that like the, I don't know if hype is the right word, but the awareness of human-centered design hasn't come yet to its end that more and more people are sort of engaging it. Should we stop them? Exactly, I know and I think that's a very good point because it's sure that so much work has gone into it and we need that because otherwise we were doing this whole efficiency model and just this kind of, so I don't want to kind of, I don't think it's one against the other. I think it's trying to create this parallel change of thought and reflection and I don't think the way you practice human-centered design can bring the more than human perspective onto it. It's not, stop doing what you're doing in terms of humans and start moving on to this. I think more than human-centered design is more of a lens with which you operate in the world. Well, I don't know if it's a solution, but at least from what I would add to my philosophy about human-centered design is always to include sort of the environment. When we're designing for human-centeredness, you should always also be designing for things that are good for ecology. We always talk about viability, desirability and feasibility, but the planet part is missing there and that might already be a step in the right direction. Exactly, exactly. What is the thing that puzzles you about more than human-centered design? What is the thing that we need to crack or should be thinking about to actually get there? I think it's just paying more attention. I think it's noticing things around us. It's taking a meta-perspective on things. We talk a lot about air pollution, for instance, and it affects us, but air pollution is the idea actually connected to more than human-centered design of interdependence and the idea that we are not mutually exclusive. We as humans, what we do affects other things or other things affect us. It's like we're all interconnected. The air pollution that we transmit not only affects our health but goes up into the atmosphere, comes down in form of rain, goes into the oceans and the seas and the rivers. That is the water that the fish drink. They have toxins in their bodies. That's again the fish that we fish and eat. I mean, everything is connected to everything else and the movement starts observing. One realizes that we can't have these fixes. So this whole idea of problem-solving or let's fix this. What's the technological fix? It works up to a point and then you realize you're making the system more and more fragile and more and more non-resilient. It's the opposite of a forest, essentially. We should be taking it even more like you said. It's a meta-view, but it's a holistic or systemic view. The more we isolate solutions, the more there will be the third topic. But the more problems we're probably creating, right? Yeah, exactly. We can no longer think of ourselves as an isolated species. That's the problem. It should be a call to arms for designers. Because I'm on a design show and you are a designer and I'm a designer. We just can't let this go on. I'm just at the point in my life. That's what I feel. I don't know how much I can actually act upon my kind of yay. At least addressing it here and putting the topic on the table is creating awareness. This hasn't been talked about a lot. I don't know why it's a taboo in the design field, but we should be discussing more the limitations of the current perspective of human-centered design. We primarily talk about what it allows to do, what it enables. I don't hear so many conversations about what the limitations are. Maybe the consequences or the downsides are, right? Yeah, there's a lot of conversation in my kind of world going on in this space. A lot of people are talking about it. I think it's getting more attention, actually, slowly. Good. Important. We have a third topic that we are interconnecting everything. This one, we already touched upon this, but let's see if anything new comes out. Topic number three, do you remember what it is? It's problems. Yeah, so it was about problem-solving, wasn't it? Yes. Now we get a problem. It can be like how far can we go with the idea of problem-solving or how far can we live with the hubris that we are problem-solvers? And I think this is not something that I'm talking about. I think a lot of designers have already talked about it. I think there's a lot of pros and cons to it. I think a lot of design is problem-solving. I have an issue with the grip of my cup and it's a problem. And I know that design can fix it. I know I have a problem with the service I'm using and there are really intelligent, smart and elegant ways of fixing that problem so that my experience is better. So don't get me wrong in that. Yes, there are problems that designers are best trained to solve. I just think that this rhetoric around it and the bigger idea that designers are problem-solvers what that does is it often can remove some humility that I actually can't solve all the problems or you're so determined to solve that particular problem in front of you that we often don't think of the consequences intended and unintended of creating that fix. So I think in some cases it works. For instance, with the better experience and with the mug, it works. But when you're saying, okay, my problem is I need to create a system that will allow users to stay longer on my platform. So I will create more and more sticky content to keep bringing the users back because my financial or my boss's financial revenue model is based on the amount of time users spend on my platform. Now, we are seeing the consequence of that, the unintended consequence on the amount of addiction and problems that social media and YouTube are creating. So this is the YouTube algorithm. This is spent as much time as possible on the platform but who is it that's spending time at the cost of what? So it's this kind of thing that is very slippery. This problem-solving idea can be very slippery quickly and can get into all sorts of... So I think we need to come up with new language. I think we need to come up with a language and vocabulary that is more humble, that is more of that of trying, that's more questioning our own processes, that's more reflective, you know, all of that. Yeah, and a lot of that has been... I don't know if it's lost or it's definitely has been there like the critical thinking aspect and the reflection and the deep thinking. That is something that has been addressed lately many times and we're getting into a stage with design where everything is about let's fix this in five days, let's do a design sprint and then have the solution. The things need to... It's like a magic potion rather than let's spend some time deep dive into this community. We should just do what you could do, what designers could do actually, sorry to interrupt. We could just cancel the idea of sprints. Just cancel sprints, try it, try and do projects without sprints and see what happens and no workshops. That would be an interesting challenge for a lot of people. In conversations, have conversations, deep conversations when you need, go away and think, spend time on the field, observe, but get out of this predetermined method that you think will give you the solutions. And this requires sort of courage. I don't know if that's the right word, but it requires designers to take a stand and say, this might sound sexy and interesting and seem like a good fit for this situation, but in the long term... Really? That's a question. Sorry? Is it really the right... Exactly. Usually it's not sustainable. Are you looking for something fancy right now or are you looking for a real sustainable solution? I think that's... And I think that is something designers can do. It's in our power. We have the power to prescribe the methods that we feel are most suited to long-term thinking and to promote the sustainable world as much as we can. I think you're absolutely right. We should be challenging our clients and people around us to focus on long-term solutions rather than things to fix tomorrow. We should always have that perspective in, I don't know, maybe five, maybe even 10 years, right? I mean, if you have children, your time horizon... If you have a five-year-old, your time horizon is the end of the century because that's how long they are going to live. You don't even think about grandchildren if you don't want to, but so it's ten years, it's nothing. Exactly. And how are you contributing to that? It's a deep question. It may be a hard question, but it is a question we should be asking in order to create a more pleasant world. I think we're running out of time. This is your opportunity. We talked a lot about really important stuff, but this is your opportunity to ask the viewers and the listeners of the show a question. What would you like us to think about and reflect upon? Comment on. I would just like to... I think I would love to hear, like, you know, I don't know what others are reading and what are they thinking, and, you know, how can... Is there a space to create a healthy conversation about this that is not just kind of, you know, flame-worry, quickly can become some of these things? I just, yeah, I mean, you know, just ways to engage further in these topics and read more and talk to more interesting people. Yeah. If there was a way to connect up, yeah. Well, let's see how many people respond to this call and leave a comment on this episode. And I know you're super busy, so I'm really thankful for you showing up here, sharing what's on your mind, addressing some really important topics. So thanks a lot. Thank you. So what is your biggest insight from this episode? Leave a comment down below and your comment might just be the inspiration somebody else needs for a great insight. 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