 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, episode 98 of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook and myself, Jackie Jones. And what we're going to be talking about in this episode is cultivating resilience in the therapy process. What a wonderful topic. I've actually just come back from a long walk, so I was thinking about resilience as I was walking along and the cultivation of resilience. I mean, when I had my heart surgery when I was 69, I had a triple bypass and recovering from that. One of the things that the surgeon said to me as we left the hospital, he said, keep walking to strengthen your heart muscle. So I took up walking. Are you still walking now? Yeah, so there's physical resilience, but I also think there's psychological resilience, which is what I really want to talk about. But I have somebody who never really was very active. I've become active over the last nearly three years now. Yeah, well done, you. Yeah, I did a lot of walking, so that's good. But we're talking about psychological resilience and in some ways they go together because as we were talking about... I think they really do. I think the mental and the physical are intertwined. Yeah, absolutely. It's something I say many times to clients that come in and they come in for depression. And I, besides doing the assessment and sending the therapist to deal with the depression, I also say usually something like, you know, if I had a magic wand, which I don't, I would sign a prescription for all the GPs in the Northwest or even the United Kingdom for everybody that comes for treatment of depression for the GP signs, a live membership for the gym. In other words, we all know that exercise is very important in the treatment of depression, for example, but I actually think exercise is very important for the treatment of many, many stressful illnesses. You can call them illnesses in this case. Stress, you know, it's really important, I think exercise. Yeah, but it doesn't need to be in the gym, though, does it? No, no. It can be just walking and being outdoors with nature. Absolutely. That's just as good. That's just as good. Outdoors, hugging a tree, walking many miles, dealing with the internal stress externally or depression, if in this case we're talking about is very important. I went this weekend with my best friend, who I've been friends with for probably 30 odd years. We went to a place that was doing rest and restore. We sat in some stone circles and we did a grounding exercise and then we met a herd of horses and we mingled with the horses for a while and then we went in a yurt and did some mindfulness and a bit of chakra work, which was really interesting. Where was this? In Stafford. Well, in Staffordshire. Yeah, she lives in Stafford, so I drove down there and we went and did that together. My gosh. And is it a sort of thing you have to pay for? We did. We had to pay for it. It was for about an hour and a half, but it was it was it was really interesting. I can't think I think better. Yeah, and it certainly got me ying and me yang sorted out and build my resilience and just being outside with nature and listening to the bird sing. And it was cold, but it was refreshingly cold. It kind of made you feel alive, feeling, you know, the cold on your face and stuff. It was nice. No, I think it's really important. And I agree with you, the physical and the psychological are entwined. Yeah, because I've had this conversation this week as well. I don't know if I'm going off topic and bring me back again if I am. But our body holds on to a lot of things. You know, the trauma and and disease and all that sort of stuff, you know, with neckache and back pain and all those if we're, you know, stressed and holding ourselves tense and everything, our body holds on to it all. Yeah, there's always a somatic response. Yeah. Our bodies become a container. Often for trauma or or defending against many things. Yeah. And a lot of our internal. Poses that get played out in the body. It's like headaches. Yeah. Stiff necks, knotted stomachs. Yeah. All these things. Tight calf muscles, very tight shoulders. Often the internal psychological processes are in fact, you know, affect the body a lot. Yeah. So what does resilience mean to you then, Bob? Oh, well, let's get back to that then. OK, but I think they are entwined. Oh, no. In transaction transaction analysis terms, resilience would mean a robust adult ego state. In other words, the person that has developed a strong, robust adult ego state. And if we look at definition of adult ego state, it's when somebody can stay steadfastly, if you like, in the here and now and they don't get stuck in past thinking. Yeah, feelings or future. Meandering so they can actually stay. You know, in the present, yeah. So in TA, it would be a robust sense of. Being able to be in the adult ego state, which I can talk about in a minute. So you must be reading my mind because when I cut to 10 to four, I thought, oh, I'm going to be doing a podcast on resilience. So I'll look up what resilience means. So I've got my phone. Good, good. And here we are. First things I found on my phone when I put resilience in and mental health. Tips to improve your resilience. I just read these six out and we can talk about them. I'll read them out first and then we can go over them and talk about things as well. So number one, get connected, building strong, positive relationships with loved ones and friends can provide you with needed support, guidance and acceptance in good and bad times. Establish other important connections by volunteering. Or joining a faith or spiritual community was their advice. Number two, make every day meaningful. Oh, I like that one. Do something that gives you a sense of accomplishment and purpose for every day, set clear, achievable goals to help you look forward to the future with meaning and purpose. Thirdly, learn from experience. Think of how you've coped with hardships in the past. Consider the skills and strategies that helped you through difficult times. Okadokis, next, remain hopeful. You can't change the past, but you can always look towards the future and present. Next, take care of yourself. Tend to your own needs and feelings. Participate in activities and hobbies you enjoy, including physical activity in your daily routine. Get plenty of sleep and create consistent bedtime rituals. Eat a healthy diet, practice stress management and relaxation techniques, such as yoga, meditation, guided imagery, deep breathing or prayer. And last but not least, be proactive. I like that. Don't ignore your problems. Instead, figure out what needs to be done. Make a plan and take action. Although it can take time to recover from a major step back to a medical event or loss. Know that your situation can improve if you work at it. That's the six tips. In this mental health definition on Google. So do you agree with all of them? Oh, I've just got rid of them all again. I've just, Google, do I agree with them all? Yes, I do. And also, I think it's important for each one. So, for example, get connected, building strong, positive relationships, loved ones, et cetera, et cetera. It's very important so that you can feel you know, soothed by internal and external references. You can carry people around with you that, you know, love and care for you. And in stressful circumstances, you can hear their voice and remember memories of them. They will all help build up, I believe, positive resilience. Yeah. I mean, the problem, though, I mean, it doesn't go into the problems. But the problem is when you sabotage yourself. Making these connections, when you sabotage yourself, having a narrative of positivity. When you sabotage yourself by concentrating on negative thoughts. Yeah, memories from your loved ones. Yeah. When you sabotage yourself, becoming isolated rather than connected. Yeah, because I've had this conversation with clients over this last week about that a lot of the time, we're not even aware of the fact that we are sabotaging ourselves. It's like habitual behaviour. That's right. And I think what happens is that we I can explain this. I like the way I like that term habitual behaviour. I don't think we know English sabotage relationships and things. Not in our awareness. Yeah, usually, usually. However, unconsciously or out of our awareness, yeah, we certainly do. Absolutely. 100 per cent of the time, I'm saying, well, 99.9. Yeah, often the habitual patterns that you're talking about are often seen as negative ones or can be negative rather than habitual positive. Behaviour. So, for example, I took my daughter down to her new job and she was going to be staying overnight for a first shift in the residential care home. She's going to be working. And she says she was saying she was feeling anxious and apprehensive. Understandably. Yeah, so I said that's normal and be odd, if you weren't. Yeah. And I also said to her, you know, you know, I really care for you. Whatever happens, the world won't collapse. I'll phone you tomorrow to see how you got on and wished you well. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And in that process, I hope she would remember those words. And if she felt stressed, she can think back on what I said. Yeah. That's what I think number one meant when it said stay connected. Yeah. Yeah, because it's easy to isolate ourselves when we're not feeling on top of the world. Yeah, definitely. That's negative. Yeah, so it's very important to, I think, number one, connections. I mean, we're all social animals. Yeah. And it's when we don't. How can I put it? Socialize or surround ourselves with people who love and care for us. There. Our resilience is harder to create because we stay isolated or surround ourselves with people who give us negative messages instead of positive narratives. And therefore, our resilience gets less or contaminated. Yeah. So. For you, is resilience connected to our self-esteem? Oh, they go together, don't they? Well, I think so, yeah. And, you know, our self-esteem comes from inside us. But so often it's dependent on recognition and validation from outside. I was going to challenge that assumption you just said. I understand why you said it, because so many people say it and it makes sense when you said self-esteem comes from inside us. Yes and no. And then you went on to say the second part, which is what I think, which is actually the building blocks of self-esteem and resilience comes from validation, permissions, encroachments from our loved ones. Yes, yeah. And then our self-esteem will build from that. It's very hard. If you've had a very, very negative history, well, there hasn't been much validation, permissions, recognition, positive compliments. It's hard to have self-esteem inside yourself. Absolutely. You see, the thing I suppose why I say that is because if it's wholly dependent on external validations and permissions and everything, it can be taken away from us at any given moment. And I think particularly now with the younger generation and Facebook and TikTok and YouTube and all these sort of things, that it's so dependent on being accepted in the outside world and getting likes and shares and all this sort of stuff on social media that we need to be able to build it for ourselves away from that as well. Well, I'm going to say yes and no. If that's absolutely fine. That's why I said this is yes and no. I do agree, of course, and all those things you said. I mean, you just got to look at all these reality TV programmes. And I was watching a programme on the 158 people that had come out of Love Island in the last seven years or whatever it is. And something like only 10 percent actually, you know, make a lot of money or go on to actually get to position they want to be. And all the other people fade into the significance. And a lot of people it's actually that they report feeling worse afterwards. Well, and I'm sure for a lot of the reasons you've just said that it's very easy for people to forget people. It's very easy for people to take away all these likes and all these things and recognition on social media and all the things you're talking about. And then they feel worse. Yeah. You're absolutely absolutely correct. So I think the building blocks of esteem come from connections from your loved ones, from your early external significant figures. Yeah. Not all these other people or friends and everything else. They become important. I'm not saying that. I mean, you know, I remember Jess, I remember daughter of teenagers and all these sorts of things and how important the peers were and the teenagers. Absolutely. Yeah, one sort of negative stroke or commerce made you think the world was going to collapse. Yeah. So I do understand what you're saying. And I still think under stress, if a person's got a narrative of recognition, validation for important, significant other people, that says a lot in the building blocks of self esteem. Even though what you said is also true. Yeah, things can be taken away very easily. But if you've got that intrinsic building blocks of self esteem, which are also from validation from the others very early on, they can't they aren't taken away so easily. Yeah, I kind of agree. I do agree with that, but there's so many of us that those building blocks and that, you know, recognition and validation and permission isn't given to us at a young age. No, and I fall into that category, by the way. So, you know, but if you look at me at the age of and I was talking about it's over breakfast today with someone, if you look at myself at the age of, you know, 27, 28, 29, I'd achieved quite a few things, I thought, but I had very, very little self esteem. And that came primarily because I was never given a validation recognition, positive strokes or any of those sort of things you're just talking about when I was growing up. And I mean, right up to the age of 26, 27, I'm talking about. I gave myself validation, have achieved university degrees and various other things, but certainly wasn't enough. And so self esteem really started to build actually when I went to therapy. Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. I think it did with me as well. Yeah. So I'm not. It's just a very, I know, I know exactly where you're coming from, nature and nurture and everything else. And it's probably something we could do a podcast, talking about nature and nurture in a therapeutic process. And I still like to think that early building blocks of self esteem come primarily from external validation, permissions, encouragement. Spontaneity and everything else from significant loved ones. More than anything else. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a combination of both. I I think for me, I just like the idea that my self esteem is in me and nobody can take it away from me. Well, I think that, yeah, but I don't think that comes from. Um, you know, later in life, I come. I think that comes from early connections and early in life. Now, can we get those sorts of connections from people we admire, love and have as mentors later in life? Yes. Well, yeah, I sense those from earlier in life. I don't think so. Because I'm constantly working on my resilience, you know what I mean? And when life throws as a curveball, I think our resilience drops. You know, and fortunately, I've got people around me that can hold me up at times when I need to be held up. But for some people that can't, you know, it's how they build their own resilience. Yeah, so do you think then resilience and survival are the same thing? I don't know whether we can survive without resilience. Because I survived in the most harsh circumstances. And when people talk about how I survived in terms of not just my physical sense of self, but my actual mental sense of self and how and where I am today. A lot of people say I got a lot of resilience. I would think for the first quarters, essentially my life, I simply survived. Yeah. So number two, which is on this list, by the way. Well, perhaps I'll go to what I liked rather than just this follow this list. Yeah, talked about. I think the last one about proactivity, taking action. I love that one. It's really an important one. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, seriously, I mean, by taking proactive, sorry, by being proactive and taking action and finding purpose in life and finding a sense of ownership of identity. Yeah. Are all such important things. I've just entered retirement or semi-retirement age and have been struggling with this for the last at least two years. And I'm now down to a three day week. But, you know, part of finding purpose, identity and status when you retire is such an important things. Yeah. In terms of what we're talking about here. Yeah. Resilience is linked, I think, to finding purpose in life and taking ownership of identity. So I very much like proactive, proactive, proactive, delight and having a plan and not just being passive and doing. Passive, behaviours in life. Yeah. Absolutely. I 100% agree with that. Again, I was having a conversation with somebody and we ended up laughing about it because she she didn't have or she doesn't feel like she has any purpose or dreams or aspirations or anything. She doesn't know what what she wants to do or what she wants to be or anything. She's very flat lined. Oh, oh, oh, yes. I think not having dreams is a big one. Yeah. It is for me. You know, that's having a purpose. One, you know, to me is really important because that's what makes us progress and go on to the next day and the next day and the next day. Oh, oh, absolutely. Purpose, identity, the ship of self, the capacity to love ourselves and other people. Yeah. They all make of the building blocks of resilience. Yeah. And I get what you were saying about, you know, people that are coming up to retirement or are retired, you know, often when I would job is I were identity to a certain extent and when we're not, you know, partaking in that job is like, well, who am I now? What's my role? What's my purpose? What do I do? It's kind of like as a parent when your kids grow up and leave home. It's, you know, my job's done now. What do I do? Yeah, you know, if you read some of the works of Bruno Bethanyl, Bruno Bethanyl, who was in the concentration camps with. Frankel and he talks about survival and resilience and the difference between the two of them. And he talked a lot about memories, significance of love and care for mothers, positive narrative, purpose, moving away from a spiritual wilderness as ways that he survived the concentration camps. Yeah, I think I've read a book by somebody that was there and that was all about resilience and everything. Yeah. Yeah, I do think that when you talk about psychological resilience, we do need to look back or help the person create a positive narrative, find purpose and take ownership of identity in their own life. Yeah. So what do we what do we do to cultivate this in the therapy room, then? Those are the things I've just put down there. Yeah, we've read those tips. And we talk about cultivating in the therapy room. Well, you know, the most important person besides the you know, the client self in that room, of course, is the other person, which is the therapist, especially if he's individual therapy. And I here we go. Another another I say is plea for what I've said in most of these podcast and you have as well is the importance of the relationship between the therapist and the client. Yeah, the client cannot cultivate, maintain. Resilience by themselves. Yeah. So this has to be done through or with the journey of two people, psychotherapist and the client. And psychotherapist can pit pivotal in that relationship to help the person cultivate what we're talking about here, resilience. Yeah. And they also and the therapist also needs to help the person be aware of how they sabotage resilience. Now, mainly because I agree with you, most people don't go throughout life saying, right, you know, I've got a negative narrative or composed negative behaviors. A lot of these things are outside their awareness. They don't purposely go along, go along in life, sabotaging their success or purpose in life. I absolutely hundred percent agree with that. But they do go through life often unconsciously, unaware. Sabotaging. Building up self esteem and resilience. Yeah. So the therapist needs to help the person. And help the person understand what is usually understandable, in other words, help them understand how come they sabotage building up their own self esteem and their own resilience. Yeah. Go on. No, go on. I'll say it after you. I was just going to say it. And ultimately, as in transactional analysis and more things, it's all to do with our past. We sabotage because of past experiences. Yeah, absolutely. And I know this is going to sound very dark to you, I suspect. And that's my fantasy and people listening may also think I'm being particularly dark here. But a lot of people sabotage their own resilience and self esteem because they hate themselves. You know, I wouldn't say there's many clients and they're coming into my therapy room, past or present, who can who say quite freely they love themselves. They concentrate much more on the hatred in themselves. Yeah. Haters. It's a very strong word and dislike. But yeah, I get what you mean. It is it is hate in themselves. Yeah. Let it go and let it go. Well, he's a poet. He was a poet. He died. But he also, you know, was a singer and he did sing about a lot of dark things. And he he was, I say, a fantastic poet, but he did, you know, poetry quite dark, if you want to put that one of his records, which I think probably was one of his most popular LPs that shows my age, isn't it? Love and hate all about singing about love and hate. Yeah, because love and hate come together in a way. My dad always used to say there's a very fine line between love and hate. There is. Absolutely. And I never understood that when I was a kid and I was growing up. But as an adult, I do. Yeah. And I think a lot of clients, I have seen over a long time. And I think you and me talk a lot about hate. OK, you might want to say dislike, but they often also talk about their hatred of the self. No, that is what stops themselves building self-esteem and, you know, finding purpose of life. So the next question is how come a person stays invested in such a negative hatred and dislike of themselves? So the therapist is pivotal in helping the person. Understand often. The processes which the client. A isn't aware of or if it is aware of, they don't know what to do about. Yeah, card very rarely, you know, Jackie comes in the room and says, you know, I love myself and I care about myself and very, very rarely. So working on self-care and self-love and self-worth and self-growth and all those things that start with the self are going to help with building resilience. Yes, and also, yes, 100 percent. And also a therapist needs to help the client find out what stops that person doing all those things you've just said. Yeah, because unless they do find that, if unless they do help the client understand that, yeah, how can they do what we've just said? Yeah, self-care, self-love, compassion, all those sorts of other things, they'll just become adaptations to the therapist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have to find out how all that was thwarted in the first place. So, yes, you're right, it is a background of past. Yeah, because it that last bit that you said then, you know, when we say taking action and everything, we can fake it and do all of this stuff. Yes, and go through the motions and not change anything. Well, it's like empathy, actually. You know, if we talk about degrees of empathy and how empathic a person is, you know, if you look all the students that have come through my doors, I've lost God knows how long to train to be psychotherapist. I meet people who I want to say they're particularly empathic, but they have have what I'm going to say. Learned empathy. So you're right, people can learn these things and maybe that's better than nothing at all. However, if we can find out what is, what's the process that has thwarted the authentic spirit of the human organism and help the client understand that they then have more of awareness of what to do instead. Yeah. And as always, Bob, this is not going to happen in one session. It's it's a long process to unearth and unveil and work all this stuff out. And it intertwines everything really, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And if the client can find, feel the compassion of the therapist, that goes a long way. Yeah, I love that. So there's six tips there on building resilience that we can all focus on. And the other bit we've just been talking about is unavoidable, which is visiting our past to look at how we might sabotage all those tips, because that's where the growth is, I believe. Yeah. Thank you. I've enjoyed that, Bob. You're welcome. No, I think it's a very important topic. Yes, I think in this day and age, building resilience and being resilient is quite important, whatever age we are. So next time, episode 99, Bob. Oh, my gosh. What can we do? An ultimate one. Yes, an ultimate one before the magic 100. Oh, my gosh. We're looking at repetitive cycles in therapy. I'm interested in this one. This one is really interesting to me. I'm going to get lots of hints and tips from you. So until next time, Bob. Yeah, bye bye. Speak to you soon. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.