 Yeah, I was going to say very soon it's going to be night anyways. Yeah, exactly. This is the Open Global Mind Check-In Call for Thursday, October 1, 2020. Welcome to October. How did the year go by so fast? Yeah, it's kind of crazy. So I was I think I'll finish my check-in just I gave a speech on Monday. The tech before actually doing the live Q&A was funky. It was just like in the scene from broadcast news where Holly Hunter dives across the studio to jam a tape into a VCR into a tape player for, you know, to get something on the news. But it was fun and the talk is up. I just put the link and the medium link does work. Thank you, Pete. And I'm going to post it on LinkedIn, post it in a bunch of other places. So we may ship this call an hour later. See how that works. I kind of liked it by the time 8.30 is done sort of in my day. We've done it. We've done a call and they've got me excited and we're sort of, you know, running on stuff. So I do like that about them. So let's play with that. And then on Facebook, I had a thread a week and a half, two weeks ago about what do you call it when someone is accusing you of doing the actual thing that they're doing. And it was really interesting. It was very fruitful. A lot of people jumped in and contributed. Gaslighting is a good term for this. The big lie from Joseph Goebbels is good for this. But nobody knows what d'Arvo means. So you can't just throw d'Arvo in conversation because it's too obscure. And I just in the shower this morning, I thought of a term that I'm going to go back to that thread and sort of float it, but I wanted to float it here, which is flamethrowing. Because gaslighting is starting to get known. And it feels so gaslighting is not offensive enough. So, so what I mean is the very intentional strategy of doing something incredibly ballsy and illegal and outrageous yourself. So you are going to accuse the other side of doing it. So, the thread, I was in a conversation yesterday where it was made pretty clear to me that on the far right there isn't there's a trope, a meme that the 2016 election was not a peaceful transfer of power. It was a coup. Therefore, a coup is justified now, and at the 2020 election, and sorry to raise everybody's blood pressure right now. And I sort of wanted to, and I'm like, Dan, that is that is a trope. And Trump struck that note during the debate. There was no peaceful transfer of power that if you look there's a clip where he says exactly that so that this is a live thing. And to me that's flamethrowing. So I just want to say, later we can talk about it if you want, but just flamethrowing seems to me to be an interesting moniker for an offensive rhetorical strategy that is in full time use right now. And I need to figure out how to douse the flamethrowers how to poke a hole in the tank or something. That would be incendiary. Incendiary, exactly. And projection was the other word that came up in the Facebook chat. You know, the psychological forms of projection, which work, but they're also for me a little a little too passive. So, incendiary is good. And I think that's sort of naturally where I got from flamethrowing. Flamethrowing as a verb. What is it? Rice tagging. Rice tagging. Okay, okay. Rice tagging in it for memes for, you know, so. Well, there's also the false, false flag is a known thing. So this is different from false flag operation to right. Anyway, so enough for me to check in. Let me go through our humans on the on the call. How about let's start with Scott Kevin Luke. My video is not working today, but that's all right. So, in my feeling outmatched by the big brains in this group, I still try to contribute every week as much as I can. But I understand humbly the depth that all of you go to and that's, it's really just an honor to be here. So, the thought that came to mind this week was I was thinking about how we can talk about ourselves because that seems to be something that we've been interested in trying to corral a little bit. And the idea of a tree came up, which, you know, is simple, but what happened was it came up because I was looking at the relationship between truth and trust. What I found was that truth, trust, and tree all came from the root word Daru D E R U, or, which is old English. And it was just fascinating as I went down this path because trust has this also the thing that you preserve for someone else for the future. That's, you know, another one of the meanings of trust a trust is something that you are, you are, you are given the responsibility of holding on to for someone in the future which also seemed kind of what we're working on here. But it was just a fascinating little, little journey into the, you know, the etymology of truth, trust and tree and how it all came together and how the roots as Jerry you were talking about combining the old with the new so we have the roots expressing themselves in the new leaves. And it just, I don't know, it made a lot of sense and even went into the Greek side, where that that Daru was the root of dendrite, which, you know, of course, we've talked about that dendritic portion of what we do so is Judy, where is Judy? Yeah, I thought I was looking for Judy, but I don't see her. But thank you. That's a good observation. Somebody's coughing somewhere. Thank you so much. So I haven't realized that that Luke was actually rumor so sorry about that rumor. You renamed yourself and I'm like, Oh, it's not a string it's not a new it's not a newbie it's actually Rover. So let's go Kevin then rumor than Hamilton. Thanks. I mentioned that we're working with a cohort of interconnected economy neighborhood economy folks and discovered in talking to Norrie, which is a carbon mark yesterday that having a distributed network of farms works to sell your carbon as long as you have a data manager in the middle who has everybody's trust and we have a data manager in the middle has everybody's trust on the the church farms and we also do with the indigenous there's a me walk woman so we're going to go forward with that we discovered that it's doable with some small farms and big farms and then we can figure out what we do from there and if we get it and we sell it and then there's also affiliate sales where you know people who care about you pay more. It was pretty interesting to this big idea actually works. So that's kind of cool. That's fabulous. And I love how positions of trust matters so much in social systems, of course. Yeah, Kevin, I would love to because Kevin and I had an exchange and systems that I'm aware of are starting at 2500 acres collected farm so if you have figured something out I would love to know it. Yeah, we have small and big farms that as a collective are okay enough is apparently what they're saying so we'll see what if when we really do the met we'll see. I'll keep you in the loop. Thanks. Love that. Thank you. Let's go. Thank you. Hi, good morning, everyone. It's been, I've been missing all this discussion for the past few weeks and hope that all of you from the West Coast are doing well. It's been a little bit of a stressful week here. And, well, my wife's last day for work was yesterday so we've been, you know, working on, you know, some issues here and cranking up something here so so my apology for missing some of the discussions. However, thanks to Charles, I've seen the video of Tom Adley. And I'm trying to make sense in terms of the framework that was presented there which is the harvesting of ideas cultivation of ideas and then digesting it. And then finally from the framework, he's got this other side of it where there's some purpose on this in terms of serving certain stakeholders. So I kind of brought this up as a question to the group in terms of who are we really serving in OGM and who are the stakeholders that we are working with. And I'm trying to relate this with what Tom Adley was discussing because I can see some very nice, I would say relations there. So I would be really grateful to understand more about the group and more clarity would be appreciated so I can figure out where I can help and figure out where I could fit in. So thank you. Thank you so much Romer and I'll hold off trying to answer that until we've done the check-in round but that's a really super orienting question for OGM. Hamilton Stacy Neal. Hey guys I'm like Romer I miss all you it's been a pretty hectic couple at least a couple hectic Thursday mornings I guess, which is conflicted and also some weeks as well but great stuff going on I know that we're doing for Swift and Inno tribe goes live Tuesday. So if you've registered if you're registered attendee of Cybos this year which is free and you may do then you could watch the the Swift Pirate TV video that we did with Anne Pendleton and Peter and Amber case clamber the artist not case organic the tech star is what is the hat she's wearing. So that's pretty cool. And just if there's two things that have been I found one amber turned me on to this website group called the guild of future architects, which is very very OGM me. You probably all know about it I was the last one to the party but it's not young people who will grow up to be architects it's people who are architecting the future. And it has a guild and of course we sort of love that word here. And then the other thing that I'm reading that I would recommend. I don't know if you guys know Scott Smith. I'm a name Scott Smith he changes is his organization. This book is called how to future, leading and sense making in an age of hyper change. So it's a real practical book around how do you stop making innovation and futurist so theoretical and get really practical and tactical about it and know I'm early and it's a good read so I would recommend that. Hope you all are well. And that's a, I've got go for in my brain under OGM neighbor communities, which I've connected a whole bunch of organizations to, and it's it's sort of a next steps item for me to approach those communities and say hey how do we serve you how do we connect. How do we bridge so very cool. Awesome. Yay. Thank you and are they going to post the video to the private TV session openly on the web after seabass. Yes. So I'll make sure that link gets out. That sounds great. Hamilton, so Stacy Neil Jay. It's Scott leave. Scott was having trouble with his video he may have dropped off. Okay, well, you're right. Okay, I had, I had a conversation with Scott so I want to echo what he said about humility and I'm really grateful to be in this room. I'm going so I'm working on a participatory action research project, which I'm calling park. And basically what I'm doing is creating an organizational toolkit, and it goes in two paths and if what so basically what I do is intelligent designs personally designing people's future so I'm, I'm like the opposite to like a Walt Disney. And I'm coming with a beginner's mind, and I'm a learner, like somebody that would use Jerry's brain. So, from a systems point of view, my brain reflects your brain. And so the process I developed for myself is to only use Facebook messenger and Facebook, because that to me was my world and coincidentally, or there are no accidents. The first thing I ever wrote was something called through the eyes of Facebook, what I learned about the world around something like what I learned about myself in the world around me. Anyway, to that point my adaptation requires that I do certain things and I'm testing this out. So right now, you could imagine that you're all a Dow, because the other part is a test game for whether dows will actually work so it goes to governance as So I'm going to ask Charles, because he has a piece of my text because I sent something to Lauren and to him as part of my experiment. So I will ask him to share that with the group, and I will also make a request of the whole group again part of my experiment. The one thing that I would really need for some support. The old practical knowledge ecology. I set up a Facebook that I put my stuff there because nobody wanted to have a Facebook presence but I knew I needed it. And they very kindly agreed to allow me to do it. Unfortunately, only Lauren has privileges. And so I can't get a character that I wrote out of the repository. So your first task should you choose and you're working as a group now, because this is learning. So we're starting at the mastery level. We're going from the top. And we're going down. We're flipping the paradigm. So you have the beginner's mind practicing mastery and teaching is what I do best, because on the other level, I'm a great learner. And I found my way through Jerry's mind. So you are actually the template that my brain grows. And you might be interested to know that right now I have some masters Barry court, Michael Josephowitz, and a new player that you haven't met yet. And they're working in a Facebook Messenger thread. And I'll be asking some people to observe as judges right now just by looking at what I know because I what I recognize is that I use Tammy Lee Myers alphabet code, the way other people use tarot cards. So I'll be channeling the wisdom of Mother Earth. And I'm working with Julia Hayden who's Princess Gaia, and it blends, you know. Oh, and Charles if you could do me another favor if you could send them the testimonials that you guys made for me I know it was a rough cut in practical knowledge ecology if you can I have it. I know I could, I could do that myself but if I would like to offer an invitation and then I'm out of here I'm just going to watch. Here's my invitation to the group. First of all, I would like to offer Scott mooring, Roma, Roma, Roma and Hamilton Ray to come on down and join the master class competition. I would like to invite Doug Carmichael and Jerry Malkowski to come and observe as guest judges to be. Again, it works like the brain. And there will be an art like there's a there's different wings and if you come. I'll tell you more. There will be a barn raising court call in GCC with Sam Han because it's his collaboration that I'm, you know, Doug Engelbart's on the bottom level and then Sam, and now me over there. So the brain Jerry I would really like you to be there. Doug I really don't know much about you yet but I will find out but I can tell from my intuition that I would love for you to at least share some information with me back and forth with that I'm complete thank you for indulging me. This is my process. Oh, I have one more person Pete can you come to Pete Kaminsky or everybody's invited to observe everybody's invited. It's a competition and that's how we play and party. Oh, by the way, my Hebrew name is joy. Just want to point that out. You can play with us. Oh and Judith if you see Judith, I would like her to be there I need her to be there because we're, this is an educational program. Okay, awesome. Stacey I'm blown away. It's a it's a lovely invitation. I like I'm in count me in and you've got you've got a great crew of people you're inviting in to do this. I haven't talked with very court and forever. I've been the thread to observe. I told them I will so I'll make that announcement but I just, you know what, because of the this work is really taxing on the body so this is also a health kind of thing. So I'm trying to, like right now my mouth is really dry. So it's just just a little bit of time so I could give everybody the proper attention and do it right, but we're going to do it together and I make mistakes but that's how there will be a lot of mistakes on purpose, and they'll be gambling and money and economics and all good stuff. Thank you. And this feels like a very integrative project it feels like you're pulling from all different kinds of places that are super interesting. And I'm telling the stories of the generations before me so just so you know as a clue. I'm working above Oprah. Oprah is my mentor. Okay, bye. Cool. Thank you. Listening now. Thanks Stacy. Okay, so the anti has just been raised enormously for checking in but with that I'll go to Neil Jay and Ken. Hi everybody. Neil here from Levin in Belgium. Been a few weeks since I saw you so forgive me I've had a few drinks in that time I'm feeling better for it. No, we've had some wonderful rain in the last week and we'd had very very very dry summer. And so the last showers we had prior to these ones had soaked less than a centimeter into the ground. We had one rainstorm the other night soaked 10 inches into the ground. We're you know the gardeners is looking fantastic the cooler weather is here. The pressure is off to keep walking around watering cans and keep keep things alive and the winter crop is in and should hopefully with the continued rain do very well. In terms of what I've been up to been involved in a couple of conferences since I saw you last I was a speaker on social media competence and communication in times of crisis with the form belt. And lean based conference based out of eat a pain's world in in Germany. Stephen Wallace systems think one of the main presenters in that online conference that went for several days and been involved in the R 3.0, which is started off as accounting standards and then has moved through an eight year evolution. And is now literally looking for new ways of accounting value beyond GDP beyond typical monetary measures and is really shifting the nature of the game with UN support. Still difficult to get funding because in all these cases where the more conscious are too far ahead of the current paradigm very hard to be supported. But literally shifting the way in which we will be accounting during collapse, we're in a social ecological collapse right now. And the question is how do we keep doing what we're doing when we know it's not going to work. So that then leads into some major projects that I'm involved in one commercial and confidence so I can't tell you the details but potentially able to influence the culture of Europe at some point in the future. Part of my role there was to help shift the the level of thinking from coordinating at level to if this then why not coordinate here. And the team I was talking with prior to the meeting with the consortium team were reticent to to go that far because all we didn't challenge the system. And I took it on myself to stretch that envelope and see what was possible and the team that we were speaking to were going. Yes, this is the sort of thinking so I hope that again this is an interesting role as an unpaid volunteer trying to enter as a potential partner for European project that could change the culture of Europe. And potentially have already changed the scope of which of how we cooperate and collaborate and the level at which we do that. And this is a critical element links back a bit to what Stacy was saying about knowledge ecologies. And so Jerry has seen some of the connections I've been trying to make between Jerry Michelle bounds, George poor around knowledge ecologies. And the challenge I see is that large knowledge commons like online global mind like peer to peer wiki sitting there underutilized having difficulty connecting with on the ground projects. I'm not being critical of anybody here. But what are the multiple alternative vehicles for different jurisdictions. How do we manage the commons in ways that maintains the commons not just gives benefit to those that extract from the commons. So I've been playing with some diagrams, not as the expert but to try and challenge the thinking around. What does the model look like and what are the stocks and flows and how do we put some rules onto those stocks and flows around contribution and distribution. Because these are critical elements of how we value what we value and where we're going. And I'm finding the best way to do that is to attract people to a higher point of convergence rather than trying to converge at level. What if we're all aimed to change the culture of Europe to fit within a collapsing social ecology. Right. And if that, how do we stay parallel or not absolutely on the same page yet longer so that we can feel the emerging patterns as we go through a longer process. And in a conversation today with the professor of cultural heritage. The connection there around how do we not just look at the cultural heritage of 600 years of university involvement in creating towns and cities in Europe. What about the cultural heritage we're creating now that will be here in 500 years if we get it right. And so it's that how do we get the knowledge ecology to direct the creative economy, the narrative, the storylines, the processes, the knowledge pools in ways to give us better designs for a future which isn't going to be the same as the past. So that's my check in for today. Thank you. Long time no see. Great to be back and looking forward to interacting with you or further. Thank you so much, Neil. We're all involved in such lightweight, frivolous endeavors, I think it's amazing. Ken only has a half hour he can be with us this morning so just realized I should flip the order so that can goes first so Ken J Pete, and you're muted, which is something I wish I could have screamed out to Donald Trump during the debate go ahead. Hello everybody. Nice to be back. I've missed you the last couple weeks. I've spent the last three weeks in hotel rooms. I'm really cranky I do not do well being inside hotel room all day long. I've got an iPad my computer and two phones and I'm constantly checking and I am completely outraged by the work the way that things are not working there is. I talked to my boss the other day and I said between you and me off the record. Do you think there's something sinister going on she said, absolutely. There has been a level of sabotage that I can't put my finger on I can't point to anything specific, you know, evidence but it just feels wrong. There's been so many breakdowns so many things. This week we were told to do something and a brand new manager came in and and you know told everybody. You have to get your team out there and you've got to get them to work and you know if they're not working give me their names I'm going to call them and people push back and said, Who the hell are you they don't know you that these people were told they did not need to work more than five hours a week. They're not going to listen to you you have a relationship with them and we're offended by the way you're coming in here so by the way this is for the US census. It has been eye opening to see the way that, in especially in light of the, the federal case that's gone on in Judge Coase court in San Jose. I'm very fucked up, and it's really made me angry at a deep, deep level and it's made me disgusted and it makes me very gravely concerned and worried because I think that this is trickling down through every level of civil service across the entire government. I was impressed the other day the manager people were saying why the pressure to get done by Wednesday when the judge has given us an extra month, and finally she came out and said because that's what Washington wants. So, there's, this is coming from the very top. It is really really disheartening so I'm usually a lot more upbeat but three weeks of 1516 hour days stuck in a hotel room inside four walls where I get out once in the morning for coffee and that's it has really taken a toll on me so I'm really good to be here. And now I my phones are lighting up and I have to go in a second but thank you to just for being here it's it's good to know you folks are still out there in the world I felt very disconnected. And hang in there buddy hang in there. We need you out we need you out there. Thank you. Thank you. I think we're wrapping up but yeah. Thanks for describing a situation because it's easier for us to hold you in our hearts during this time by knowing your environment and the situation a bit better thank you. We love you can. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Jay Pete Mark. Hi everybody. Greetings from the road. I'm in Chicago still heading out heading back west tomorrow via the northern route, which I'm excited about to get back on the road have been not only, you know, uprooted and leaving the West Coast during the smokes in our town and our valley getting pretty seriously but making it into a road trip and visiting the grandparents and giving, you know, kind of doing doing the love action really to to spread that around bring the grandkids to the grandparents and and launching three programs along the way so I actually launched two programs on September 10 with my car backed in and packed in Ashland with the with the smoke levels at like 500. And it was just the days and I think this is I mean I spoke to this a couple weeks ago but I think it still sticks with me that this is this is the kind of times that we're in not necessarily that we're going to be uprooted, hopefully entirely, but that we that a systematic process is is worthy of recognition and sometimes not all that bad. And so, from the road. The programs that I've been working on I think maybe are worth mentioning a couple, one of them is a social enterprise storytelling program which had been really excited about and working with a couple of different groups and the format is really my kind of keynote but it's an interactive keynote that leads into you know why do we tell stories how do we tell stories, etc. What do we mean by story, and then doing these kind of do add duo or try add breakouts that get them then other sessions telling stories to each other and it was really cool is like Sierra Leone and Nigeria, India, a bunch of India, South South America, South Africa, and every time so every morning I'd wake up and get on another call with these folks all around the and I really came out super inspired just by the transformations that I'm witnessing and also my humble ability to be able to kind of move the dial in framing story for them and their greater journeys and being able to see beyond what they say and kind of help to recalibrate it in a way that seemingly really was making sense so I'm excited about that and the other program I'm doing is it's called Mythic Moments and I'm bringing together founders that I've worked with before that are kind of everybody's like meeting this day of moment and saying like where are we going now where we headed into the future and basically gathering through this process kind of gathering the moments of wonder. Those early moments of wonder sometimes the ones that thread us through our lives that we kind of end up plasticizing and framing into some sort of meaning releasing that kind of frame and just gathering the wonder and gathering the struggle of the journeys we've already gone on the innermost caves that we've already faced and the lessons we've pulled from it and kind of weaving together to meet a story of today. And what I'm really excited about in that that's highly experimental as I'm kind of navigating through this process and on the road is to first of all work with a constellation of people that have already like deepened themselves in the territory of story and have already been speaking politically and writing books etc in this territory, but to figure out not only how we develop a new story for today considering the transformations we've faced and the wonders we've gathered, but also in a way that walks us into a future as we're witnessing everyone walk into their future. And so it's kind of like this dovetailing journey curve idea that I've that I've spoken with in various forms that how our stories come together to create something. And so I'm also excited and deep into that. And the last piece that I'll throw in which is related is you know I'm navigating my own turmoil my own grief my own struggle with where are we how are we doing this what what I'm absorbing on Facebook and in the news, and really trying to, you know, I know we speak about presencing just really wanting to presence, the fear without succumbing to a worry that I don't want to be a part of. So I think that we create these and I haven't done the deep brain science on this and I'm really intrigued to this is kind of the first time I've been excited about brain science in a while because it's such a kind of a burden for me. Why do we leverage these negative futures overwhelmingly so we can try know we try to predict around futures that's why we're gathering information and trying to like navigate through these stories but why gather them and try to create such a terrible future when there's so much wonder that actually does exist and how do we balance all of this in a way that can keep not only keep us stable but enable some air to you know navigate and breathe in so we can travel into a future and be president a future. That we want to and I really appreciate nearly talking about 500 years I've been thinking a lot about 100 years I really am intrigued by 100 years how do we get how do we set a long course give up ourselves in a way and our you know and be present for what the power is today and walk into it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Maybe two things one is, I'd love to know how GM can be some form of little platform for you or support for you or other thing and these things you're building, which are very GM me all of them. So let's think about and then the second thing is I noted in the chat several companies are offering because tourism has gone down the crapper. So some nice places like Barbados and Bermuda and other countries are offering digital nomad visas, where it's like you go there and you can work and stay it's not like a permanent residency visa but you can stay for long periods of time they just want you to work there and you can contribute to the economy and occupy some spaces that would formerly been occupied by a tourist for three days. So stay for six months. And if, if, if Trump for some crazy reasons squeaks through and wins this one, or if other kiosk to sends I know me to him. April and I are going to avail ourselves of digital tourists, a digital nomad visas for a while. One last part. It's a promotion hip camp is awesome. So hip camp is a new app it's kind of like the Airbnb without structure, and it's perfect for coven you travel and these you just sign up you read the reviews on these places and you sign up when you bring either your tent or you do glamping or whatever. But I really believe in the necessity for an intelligent network based on trust of place, and hip camp is the best I've been thinking about this for a long time and hip camp is the best run at it that I've seen so just check it out. That's awesome and you have a brief comment. Go ahead, Neil. Yeah, thanks for that, Jay. I'm just picking up one more thing I didn't mention. I've been involved with listening to Thomas Hubel's collective trauma conference, which is a series of amazing interviews and speakers. We've only seen a couple of days of that full is about 10 days of work and we've purchased the set of the information for that. But the healing ancestral trauma collective trauma is a bit like Jay was saying about going into the cave or coming out of the ancestral cave. But we're now and I were talking about that part of the journey is to heal the trauma from the past. The other is to heal the preemptive trauma from the closing window of opportunity because we currently have impossible dreams of the future. The dreams that we have projecting the current into the future will not exist. So it's not about dystopia. It's how do we redirect the energies that will otherwise be spent doing things which are worthless because they won't get there. How do we hold the energy to redirect our new narratives through that narrowing over to window because if we don't then we're screwed. So finding that capacity to find that gap through there holding both the trauma of the past and avoiding the trauma of the future by redirecting. Let's link into everything from OGM to education to consciousness to it's all of those things. And that's part of where and now what is going. Thank you. Sorry too long. That's OK. And I agree with all you said one tiny detail. I don't think the Overton window is narrowing. I think that's a different window you're talking about a window of opportunities. Overton is the window of acceptable discourse and that has been shredded by Trump basically so the other overton window is lying ragged and way way too open now. Yeah sorry confusion but but in my case stretching stretching the boundaries of the conversation to include collapse is actually opening the Overton window to say there's a narrowing window opportunity. So forgive me I confused two different two different windows but but I like the application of the windows a lot. And part of what my speech was about on Monday I was like the title of speeches trust is the only way forward because the other scenario is all suck. And so we need to figure out how to come back into the things you're describing so that we can paint good visions of our future and then just go build them because the different the distance between reality and code right now is it's like pretty short. You know, and the distance between code and physical stuff in the world is a little bigger but not necessarily a huge so I think that's all super interesting stuff. And Charles you wanted to jump in briefly. Thanks. Yeah, I was just that Neil what you were just sharing ties exactly into Tom at the what Roma was referring to and some of us here were involved in those conversations in regard to collective sense making, and also kind of seeing through the lens of what Associated of Tom's as Martin Roush is called wise adaptation. So it connects with the Jim bandel and deep, deep adaptation but There's a lot more to come and actually finally seems that Tom is coming around to blog about this stuff. So stay tuned for that. But yeah, more on that later. Thanks. Awesome. Thank you. So let's go mark Judy clouds Charles. Good morning. Good evening for Charles and people in Europe. I never thought I would hear someone living in Belgium, welcoming the rain. Yeah, right. I'm from Australia. We like right now. Right. But I mean, I'm French. So we always have that joke about people in the North being wet all the time. But that's true that that things change. I'm working on the Oh, and these two guys. Yeah, I know I'm entertaining my my image of a social anarchist but They're great examples of resiliency. And no matter, you know how they perceived and what they've done in their lives and so forth. They, they stayed steady against all odds and for that, There are examples in terms of book for the future. So I'm going to drop that quickly. Because if when I do have my virtual background, I cannot show anything. So here. Our story is a future that's by Nick Estes, who is a native historian. So I recommend that I started it I haven't finished it, but it's a it's a great book. I've been contacted by an organization and I would love to have kind of a We'd love to have you guys opinion about it and I joined in without thinking twice because they The framing of the issue was so appealing to me so it's called no deal for nature. And the website is no deal for nature that org, which fights against the push to put aside 30% of nature for conservation and say like like this doesn't make much sense right But it says that instead, we should respect indigenous peoples rights and these rights and forth and forced then we don't need to set aside 30% of nature since they occupy about that much of terrestrial land and have rights over that. So, so I would love I would love to So if you guys feedback and what you think of this approach. I'm familiar. All of you are with that that push for to set aside 30% of I had not heard of the new deal for nature so no deal for nature is like twice removed stuff I wasn't familiar with and it sounds really briefly because I'm a big believer that humans who know what they're doing are good for nature. So we should live on the land and do, you know, do good things for it. And someone recently had suggested what we take, what if we take all the national parks and turn them over to all the Native American populations, because we've shoved them off basically into the worst corners of the country. It's the most crappy as pieces of real estate, because that's all that was left when we stole the rest. And so what if we just gave them all the national parks and turned over their, their shepherding, etc. Right. So things like that. So I love this idea. Yeah, yeah, and that's, and that's definitely something that I've been pushing. I mean I've been saying, you know, in every conversation that I have. It's kind of, it's kind of bizarre. It's not bizarre, but but it is because it's coming like such at a late point in time that like for instance in California we're starting to allow Native Americans to do control burn. But there's something that they've done, you know, they've been banned to do. Since, since the late 19th century that early. I think I think that there was completely banned in 1920. Somewhere on that. So it's causing absolutely. I mean it's wrecking abroad about the North right now. I want also to to remind all of us that our democracy here in the United States has been designed for white people. Right. So it's it's not like any democracy in the world. You know, democracy, it's more like a republic in France has been designed for French. It's a it's a big difference in terms of approach and vision and views. And finally, I just wanted to to to express to you guys whoever watch the debate yesterday that I have a huge deal of respect for you guys who have let yourself be subjected to that, although sometimes a question your sanity. I agree. Totally agree. Let's go Judy Klaus Charles Doug Matt that's our. Well, I'm trying to, I guess I'm personally just trying to continue to stay centered and do what I can do about whatever situation I'm in. It's, it feels like the right thing to do. And it fits with my basic framework of life. But I'm very disturbed by the tone in almost all of the people that I interact with a sense of loss or hopelessness or fear or anger. So the day today is interesting in contrast to my typical really long view of the world. And I think that the kind of conversations we're having. And Neil I appreciated very much your comments about the long games. I think whatever we can do to take that to every setting we're in, in addition to making it broadly available somehow to people in a more manageable, easy to consume dose or small bites or something, because I'm sensing that the energy for many people. They're so on the edge. They're not thinking about anything but the next six to 24 hours. And I think that's a challenge for us in terms of creating anything that's meaningful. And we want to get it right, which often takes a long time and so it's sort of like it. Make a little so a little was the three M thing. Just because you found out what was really needed, but maybe instead of trying to wrap our arms around the whole project. We should think about daily dispensing of nibbital bites that people could consume. It's easy to consume things whether they're cartoons or graphics or symbology or, you know, slogans, just that are opposing the craziness that's around us, because I think people will say gone to those. I don't have the answer but I am just sensing that all of people I'm interacting with, don't have the energy for a meaningful discussion most of the time. So doing that Judy would be pretty trivially easy technically I mean we could create a shared Instagram account or something else we should we could pick a technology that everybody's aware of that's really popular. And then get whoever feels like it to come donate and each of us posts small and from the words you just use I'm thinking about this as small windows into a more hopeful future. Which could be stories could be pointers to written pieces could be a paragraph quote out of some of the books that are going through our chat could be anything right. But but done in a way that anybody can subscribe to and I think I think as an Instagram channel, for example, it would be super super popular because people are looking for these things. The other image that came to mind for me as you were saying that was from Ender's game, the character, the two characters, the siblings that created oppositional points of view and became virtual communicators and debated those indosable bites and developed a huge following and tremendous influence. Maybe there's a way to do something like that, where we could end up with, I don't know, tens of thousands of followers, listening to the debate, and moving their thought process in the same kind of way and that would really fit with what we're kind of doing already. But I can't remember the names of the two characters in Ender's game but I know that it was the sister and brother, and they created identities for each other and my daughter and I actually talked about doing that years ago, just because we thought it would be fun. I love the application of Ender's game here, that'd be really, really awesome. One of my favorite sort of vloggers on YouTube are the Hank and John Green, the vlogbrothers. They're among my favorite role models because they've created so much interesting stuff. They invented Nerdfighteria, a bunch of other things, but they have this game where they're not taking two different opinions but they're playing as if they're always talking to each other. So Hank, like you said, I'm Wednesday, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they'll say something really interesting and useful as quickly sort of briefly as they can. That's interesting too. But the idea of creating oppositional points of view or, so I own the domain, thedoomslayer.com, just for fun, because Jame Cascio is the master of doom and we were joking and he's like, well, you're kind of optimistic even though you say a lot of doom. So I could create a character on Instagram called thedoomslayer, for example, and then someone else could create another one and we could do, and the question is are you on one channel or several, sorry to make this longer than it should be on a check-in, but I love the idea, Judy. And, oh, Julian, sorry that you're not doing well. And I'm not, that's too bad. So Peter and Valentine Wigan, thank you so much. That was exactly. So now I have to scroll way up to find the rest of the chickens. Klaus, Charles, Doug and Matt. Yeah, it feels like it was a year ago that we met last time with what went through, but in my particular focus area, we had some amazing breakthroughs and you feel the energy starting to really build. The Old Daily Institute just came out last week with a report and I'm posting it here, which is a white paper that summarizes the science related to soil and they're arguing and they're proving that we could basically neutralize the entire carbon output of humanity if we were to shift into regenerative practices into regenerative soil management. So this is really gaining a significant attention. And then I guess I don't know what precipitated it, but the energy that people are bringing to wanting change and looking for what can I do and how can I protect myself and others is really building up. So, you know, I'm working at grassroots level. So now the business climate leader and citizen climate lobby organizations have totally dedicated resources to what we're doing with setting up teams to address farmers. So we have two teams, one towards industrial farmers and the Farm Bureau, which has one conversation that's completely different from the other group that is working with organic farmers, multi-corp farmers, family farmers, smaller groups. And we are developing communication on a messaging that is appropriate for either one because they live in a different world each, you know, they're looking at things completely differently. So I have, we have advanced, this is the storyline now, it's about 80% complete now. I mean, I've posted, you know, took a couple of weeks to get to where it is now. But we have a storyline laid out and we are adapting the storyline now to different segments of people we're talking with. I mean, this is also now happening in Congress. Now, we have several, I mean, a growing list of ledges leaders who are beginning to understand that this is the only way forward really to get us through this transition into a new future here. I mean, I've been looking at science at this particular, you know, climate change and the relationship between the food supply and the environment and where we're heading and it is not a good place as Neil was saying before. The options in front of us are really pretty scary. And so shifting the way we call food and the way we treat the environment is really the first step here. So anyway, I'm actually quite excited because I see so much energy flowing into this effort here. It's a good thing. Thank you class. Charles Doug Matt, and then Lauren from Zurich. There's always a lot going on, but really glad to be here. And in trying to sort of how to pack in here now. One, one thing that's been really alive. And the key, which has been mentioned here, the practical knowledge ecology so long. I'm really glad you made it here. And maybe you can fill in a little bit. The, the issues of the moment at Kiko Abbott around decentralization data sovereignty trust networks, these kind of things kind of really juicy stuff. We had a bit of a flare up in our session on Monday and in a private thread with some of you here as who were present. We're working it out and hopefully we can, well, we will be following up on Monday. We're not sure who all will show up, but yeah, so that's happening. The thing which on the personal side that happened this weekend, my younger daughters first grade teacher tested positive for the coronavirus. And I was with my daughters at the time throughout the weekend. So I only just found out sort of at the end of the weekend. Not my choice, but Claire, that's my six year old, she went back to school and everything's sort of normal and looks like everyone's fine. Both both kids are fine. But here in Switzerland. We are doing some measures of distancing and stuff masks are not required for teachers. There's a lot of stuff that I'll leave out right now but but it's it's been tough and then pretty much the beginning of this week I ran into a housemate of mine up on the on the roof we have a garden up there and it seems like he probably has has a virus to like I don't believe in a virus. And I said well just don't die this week please just go get yourself checked out. The other thing that is continuing with what I was sharing last week is I'm digging deeper and deeper into our repositories and just trying to clean house and refine how we're keeping things not just a key collab but my own stuff that I've been sitting on also very much around the PKE and a lot of other big initiatives and collecting things. So, yeah, moving into position to kind of focus and articulate and go for funding with some of you here as well, offering a lot of wonderful inputs. And the last thing on the wonderful input side is Peter Dowson, whom some of you met in the story room in Australia with the story canvas. He actually Jay is still really taken by the story, the journey and is using that also with this canvas and I will dig up and possibly read some brief things that he put together around our learning gardens, ideation learning pods. Great, thank you Charles. Yeah, there's there's there's more to say I did mention about Tom Attlee I think that's really going to come around and I'll try to bring maybe bring him in here or as that stuff is emerging. That would be directly relevant. Stacey, back to your point, or you know, sort of request questions. I'm really not inclined to make sense out of scattered bits of messenger, Facebook Messenger communications. And that's the first thing that I wrote is like, please just email me an outline, you know, and bring put it all in one place. That's not on me to try to, you know, align line those pieces. So that's just not, you know, my process. And just maybe let's Let me just finish so that the the PKE the practical knowledge ecology was born, you know, was sort of born out of some of us getting a bit worn out from the GCC the global community challenges communication collaboration group talking and talking, talking a lot and not doing stuff. So we were trying to get shit done in the PKE and that didn't work out for various reasons. And so Kiko that was actually born out of the ashes of the PKE. And so I think that's enough for me for for now. Thanks. Great, great to be here. Thanks Charles. I think as we bump our way toward a better future, we're going to shed some skins we're going to figure out how to do things better we're going to build some bridges. We're going to sort of sort of sort of sort these things out and it's going to be a little chaotic here and there. And all of that would happen if there weren't a pandemic and the crazy-ass election and a bunch of other things going on So so thank you for for sharing what you did Let's go to Doug Lauren and then Matt Okay, well here I am on the Russian River of Northern California buried in smoke once again It's like reminds me of when I was a kid had a tropical fish tank and forgot to clean it That's what the air feels like It's not comfortable The big thing here. I think is well, I want to start very logistically if I had the screen that I'm looking at I could click on a person and get the equivalent of a Jerry's now page I Would find this a pretty amazing Medium especially if I could drive drag the pictures around and put them in clusters that are of interest to me If it seems to me, it would be almost a complete medium The week is coming up. I'm finishing a draft of this book called Garden World politics And the idea of Garden World politics is that we should design around major human needs food habitat and meaning and make it a coherent aesthetic project for the future Implies that the current systems are kind of breaking down first, which I think they are observations from this week Several bureaucracies that I am involved with more or less are falling apart one is a cooperative of artists 200 artists And basically they can't make anything happen and people are resigning from all the leadership positions Not good The next one is a state commission on health With a group of physicians who are basically volunteers on this commission But they are ceasing to meet because they have no budget And what I see is this kind of pulling apart of the social fabric That isn't quite being noticed yet, but each of those people is going to have less income Which means they can buy less stuff And it's a ripple effect that that is really still ongoing Certainly Disney firing 28,000 people Is it's part of that One of the big Resistances to the future That keeps things from moving is land ownership It's very hard to experiment with land when it's owned by somebody who doesn't want it to change And it seems to me the pressure on land Boundaries is going to increase and something interesting has to happen there. I don't know what it is But I see it as a real Point for the future So those are some of the things on my mind Thank you Doug. So so many interesting issues just bouncing around here. I mentioned the chat that john wasley powell Proposed to the sent to the u.s. Government that we organized the new western states because at the time they were just rolling in Around watersheds, which is super interesting It would be really and it makes me think that it would be super interesting to have an overlay world government That's organized around bioregions and watersheds And to just start getting together around that And say where does that take us? What do we do? How do we re sacralize? re You know re-spiritualize our relationship to land Etc. Etc. But I think that there's all all kinds of interesting opportunities there klaus go ahead Yeah, Doug the the issue of land management But the core inclinement solutions act is working on to do Is to actually pay people to Seq rest the carbon into the soil on a per ton basis So it's creating a revenue stream And that idea is really catching on there are a number of revenue sources That are being added to the discussion as we speak. I see this as the only practical way to incentivize people to to do this to move to to Treat the landscape I like it. It makes sense Let's finish our our round. We're well over the hour, but this has been one of the richest check-ins ever lauren than that And lauren you're in motion. Sorry to catch you at a mobile I'm painting and I won't waste the energy. I'm just trying to keep my head above water. We're moving and I'm redoing my new house. So Yeah, don't have much time for anything else at this point. So I'm just painting. So thank you for being in the call That's going to be my check-in for this week. Yeah, but I can't miss ogm Love it too much Lauren actually I I want to keep you just a moment because Just maybe just before you jumped in there was some touching on regarding the debates and and lauren and I had a call earlier today and lauren had this idea to Show clips of the debates in our cool laboratory with the kids with with the kind of Framing relating to different types of arguments There was a podcast lauren Saw that that broke down different different types of debate tactics and So sort of actually teaching kids about debate tactics and using the debate As an example. So lauren, I don't know if I'm butchering this but I'm sort of conflicted about this idea To reduce those clips to four or five frame cartoons for the children Rather than the actual verbiage And just show very short clips of angry body language Because I think the behavior in the debate was very much like toddler tantrums You don't need more than about six to ten seconds of that to see it But then maybe some cartoon that the children could relate to and discuss or play out in a play or Whatever Go ahead lauren. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's it. I mean, I don't have anything I don't think it's it's pressing for the whole group Okay, thanks Thank you guys. Um, it's it's an interesting concept. Although I think a lot of that was um, too rough for kids. So like ns nsfk um and judy's judy's approach might actually sort of Temporate enough that it's dealable and then that from a guy who believes that Very young kids are actually capable of processing really difficult things and that you know That's doable, but but that was just a mugging. It was a complete intentional mugging At the debate. It was incredible Um, matt you have the the last word in the check-in round Maybe I just start with the debates And um say that my uh 15 year old daughter asked me if I were watching them and then um And then we talked about it the day after and she was very insightful In her comments and thoughts about them And uh, I just thought it was really uh interesting and she's now engaged and we're going to watch the next debates together And this is from a kid who you know, wasn't necessarily fully engaged in in those things So maybe that's a good, you know, some goodness out of what's coming, right? Um, and uh, I've been uh Paced on Doug's advice. I've been reading uh bruno latour um down to earth and It's a it's an incredibly important book It's also an incredibly difficult book to get your head around Right and part of the things that I I I really appreciate about it is he doesn't collapse to vilifying Kind of the the some of the trumpian ideas, right? He definitely talks about them as being Um a challenge, but he tries to put them into context of why we've gotten to where where we are And part of it is that we've been living in in a in a world where We've been fighting, um Against two different versions of utopia, right the utopia of the indigenous where we're all go back to the land and You know, we live in communes and everything is harmonious and Um, you know very local Right and the utopia of a global a global world, right? In each of those global and local also have a sort of a dystopian view of of them and What ended up happening in in all of that was the fact that um That neither of them will work, um, you know, we've been running these experiments with um human civilization now for a very long time And I think what we're realizing is the um the epoch that we're on right now in this experiment that we've been doing as a As a human as a human race, um You know, both directions are failed Um, and you can see where they're going and part of it is in those in both of those directions We we have further distanced ourselves from from the natural world, right? We see everything from From afar if you will We see our planet from afar. We've seen the natural world from afar versus Sort of becoming of the earth again and seeing ourselves as just a part of the You know, the terrestrial being right this very very thin crust Of life, right if you think about you know, it's not earth. That's sort of unique and special It is this very thin layer between our atmosphere and and you know, kind of the crust of this planet And we are of it and and a lot of people It's not our pale blue dot, right? That's part of what he says. He says that that that that distance Has actually caused us to to miss out on the natural world We see ourselves as actually not a part of but we get to examine it objectively and rationally um And I think I think the reaction that's coming from You know coming from Sort of not only the extreme right, but also the extreme, you know the extreme left Is a denial of kind of what's going on in the terrain In the terrestrial world and so you know, I consider myself pretty progressive. I consider myself pretty left and became a semi-nomad like jay at the beginning of this pandemic for a variety of reasons and In that process my irrigation system at in my little small plot of land that I have here in in need of was turned off And when I got back home I failed to put it put it back on and I've been watching my My own landscape brown. I've been watching certain plants die but I've also been watching certain plants continue to be green and to grow and and that in and of itself is Was a recognition for me that I wasn't actually connected to the changes that are going on in this world And if we all turned off our irrigation systems Just that alone if we all stopped Trying to manipulate nature And just watched how it's playing out I think we would have a better realization of what's going on with with With the climate change that we're dealing with and then maybe instead of me planting lawn I plant a different type of you know different type of garden and so It leads me down to this path, which is I've been talking a lot about these things now to a lot of different people And I'm becoming that crazy person I'm becoming that person that won't shut up about these topics as Judy said There's a there's a relative A very short patience For the deep conversation. I mean this book here I can't I can barely understand it and I consider myself a smart individual and I was talking to scott who You know, you know in the background of the chat says well, how do I how do I participate with these people on this call? and I think You know the the deeper we get here the more esoteric the more Challenging these concepts are because they're they're a fundamental shift And I think that's the challenge the challenge is the left the right the wrong You know globalism localism all the metaphors all the things we've lived by all of these all of these defining concepts have to be Shed and and that requires almost The help of of us to simplify and to make these things Just really tangible and really real and you can't do that until you get a picture of the whole And I think the problem is as I was talking to one of my clients about a project and I'd love to You know send this document It's sort of a proposal of of what to do with corporate america to build sort of this 21st century consulting organization, which is about Showing leadership what actually is happening versus what they think is happening based on the mental models of business and mental models of You know their MBAs and and the economy and all this stuff and how The economic realities and even our economists fail to put Nature into the picture because it's something other it does it isn't an actor it is a it is a resource We've defined it as a resource Right. We just signed it as something that we live on We we take from and I think that these you know these things are very very difficult and the question of is where do you start The answer is you you have to just start you can't you can't pick something and prove it out because It they want to prove it out within the existing mental models and we're talking about real frame breaking here and I I can't I can barely break my own frame let alone break other people's frames because it's just it's just Really hard to get your head around and I'm starting to sound like the crazy person now And I you know, I was listening to you know, stacy's well, but but but you know stacy went off on this thing uh earlier today and you know kiko lab and What you guys are doing and what they these things sound in my mind. They're hard to even comprehend what you're talking about You know, and I consider myself a pretty smart person That can comprehend lots of different things and yet What I hear people on this call talking about are hard for me to even comprehend To know the language that you're using and all that stuff and and I'm sure you find the same thing with me these become almost like these ramblings of heretics um and crazy people and witches and um And I don't know how to deal with that yet and I I think that that's one of our Our fundamental challenge and maybe the challenge right now is not for us to build But for us to figure out how we even understand each other And how we simplify our work so that we can Start to bring other people in because we can't even describe what this is um to new people In a way that is the same and so I think that's just kind of my you know, my challenge right now and I feel Very optimistic about what this group is But I'm also Hoping it doesn't go the way of every other group that Doug's talking about which is because we don't have access to resource Right to the money to the capital to the time to the space to really work this if we were a startup We would be here every day every hour and we'd be working this but we're you know, still cobbling together Thursday mornings um and then discourse so Jerry I see your pushback and I'm not trying to be negative. I'm just trying to challenge you know challenge us to to to step back and And to You know to figure out a way to turn the complexity of a book like this into some sort of simplicity that That works for us being able to motivate others Matt, thank you. Let me go to stacey and charles for comments Yeah, I just I just want to say that um That's sort of what i'm addressing. This is sam hans smart people problems. Okay, so that's he's under me too and so Charles i'm sorry that you took it as a flare-up because I was I wasn't I will the reason that I write my things out in text is because i'm an intelligent Adaptation personal designer, so i'm designing personally i'm custom designing for every person And everybody that I work with we're going to have a one-on-one session That's how I developed the templates for the toolkit The organizational toolkit that we're going to sell And practical knowledge ecology i'm on top of that because that's where I learned a lot And it didn't work and I don't I know why it didn't work and unfortunately I was really hurt by that and I had to heal from that and I've healed And I bring with me the wisdom of the mother so that's that's I don't expect to be see. I know you get that part There we all admit that's the thing this is about I designed for inclusion. My system is based on inclusion and choice And so what I want to propose right now because this would be the teaching game You all are your own dow Because we're also building a game to test dowes a scientific measurable way to test it And the way the I've taken all the good things in the world And instead of throwing them away. I just want to shift them and that's a feminine shift And that's why I would love judy to be on a team with me and lauren One triangle and lauren I had shown you stuff Last year. I don't know what you remember about it and what's there or not The only reason that I brought it up on the call charles is because that's breadcrumb that i'm leaving So while i'm gone since I can't do everything because i'll be sick. I'm like the mother. I'm toxic I'm sick. You guys you guys pissed all over me. I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna throw up So the name of my program and it's a full it's a comprehensive this healing. There's arts The project started with the question. It's always about the question What would an economy Designed to support cultural creatives look like this is my seed All I want to do is perfect perfect my seed because I know if I have the perfect seed I can leave that creation and I can go off and build new dreams In practical knowledge ecology. I left the story of anesthesia That's me telling in one mode story form My work is spread all over facebook and this project the reason it's a reality show concept It's a hybrid. I've taken all the things that work We we're all upset many of us are upset about trump Trump right now. I have a team the one that jerry and dug have been been invited to oversee And that's michael josephowitz. And by the way, we'll be giving tours We're setting this up like an academic institution. So there are three tracks Lauren, I'm glad you came on. I really want you there But part of the part of the golden rule for the new paradigm There's only one rule the golden rule is you cannot do anything That you don't want to do If you do anything that you don't want to do and you can have your own reasons for wanting it That's between you and yourself If you do anything you don't want to do we all lose That's the beat that's I just all I want to do is this is my this is my creation my story Everybody has a story. I bring with me the women from generations before me. This is an intergenerational Learning approach. This is I want us all to win and I want us to do it our way and each have our own story It's all about separating the people and I could do that and I would like to prove it using one global mind You're going to be your own doubt Your own doubt and the first challenge I have and I would ask and you could I would ask Judith, Lauren, Charles and me to work together in the first In the first four-sided figure That's where our idea is going to stem And I you're going to help me finish the rest of my templates because I have a whole bunch of templates A whole bunch of stuff. They're not filled out because that's the fun The fun is in the game the old world. They keep jumping ahead. They want to get to the end. They want to win They're missing out on the journey. So please join me if you're interested show up Message me. I'd like to meet with you one on one. I'd like to sit with you design Your it's called starlight star bright because we might we work with the stars and everyone's a star But we have to separate them into constellations. Otherwise it's chaos Stacey Yeah, stacey I um, I hear your passion. I hear your energy and I hear your frustration. Yeah I hear all of that stuff. Um, I also hear You know sort of the words and the invitation what I don't know is I don't understand what you're What you're talking about Right. I um, I'm I'm confused and I I fear That when we get this to this place myself included That um, it almost becomes incomprehensible to other people and so then we're shut out from that world and so You know because you're on this call I'm you know, I give you know, I give the patience to try to understand Um But if we weren't in this kind of intimacy that's you know been brought up by open global mind I wouldn't give you a second thought. I would I would sort of move on from the heresy Good, that would be a good thing So tell me but I don't even but I don't understand So and I don't mean that in a just a matt stacey thing. I mean that with all of us, right? I mean, you know with neal we had conversations and charles we've had conversations and and you know lauren I just like What is the what is the what is the shape of of things? It's hard to penetrate So let me let me step in for just a second because we're at 90 minutes, which is a long call Um, and I wanted to get to romer's excellent question, which we're probably not going to get to this call But I'd like to start next call with Um, and I just want to offer two things which is OGM is I describe it as a container because it's meant to hold Experiments like what stacey's describing and stacey. This is the first time hearing about the Nexus of things that you're working on I will approach it with a completely open mind and I will give you feedback about my own responses to The invitation the process what goes on and so forth Which you've been getting some on the call here from people who've experienced what you've been doing more But I think that one of the best things that OGM could do is To help one another find the best expression of these experiments because somewhere in these experiments lies The next communications medium and the next way we all figure out how to understand each other And how to make sense of the world together and it's going to be uncomfortable upfront It's going to be Some pieces of the next one are not going to feel like books and magazines and web blogs and tweets And thank god for that like like I am praying that our next World for how we connect with each other and get to some interesting better place together Doesn't snow like twitter tumblr instagram and facebook But that's what we're stuck with right now for the basis for experimenting So it's really interesting that you just went went all in on facebook and said like well, all right We're all we're all trapped on facebook. Let's use that to try to try to see this So I will approach it that way For for for all the bad stuff that facebook has done to us and for us. I totally agree um so So let me pass it to charles and let's have just a couple comments and then go out of this call And sit with this and I will enter your your your offer stacy and see how that goes. Go ahead charles There's a bunch there and I'll try to be brief There's a lot on the table right now and I I totally understand so um I and we lo and I and the pk group were sort of implicated and Accused just now. So I I should respond somehow one thing is um, and and there's a long history to all this and and it's really not for now But um, but it's all there and I have it all extremely well documented. It's like unbelievable The repository there and I was able to call up immediately stacy the story that you mentioned and I sent it to you privately here in the zoom chat In several parts like I want to share. We're collaborating. Okay. That's up to you Okay, now it's in several pieces because it was too long to go in a single zoom message So now you can piece it together like you were asking me to do in facebook messenger So anyway, it's there for you. No problem It was quick and easy to find because I saved it because it was really good I saved it from last year Okay, and I could call it up immediately Because we all need to be responsible for for keeping track of what's important We can't we can't leave it in the hands of facebook um, you know too bad, but um In just there just one more comment In regard to the kiko lab, um, matt you were you know, still confused and we're we're still a bit confused We're we're kind of making it up as we go along In terms of the languaging and how we can possibly articulate it We're getting better and and we're building and and it there is rapid learning happening And also in regard to some of the stories um around the learning gardens and and so forth But but kiko lab at large the collaboratory as a as a as a peer based innovation incubator It's it's it's wild and woolly and it's messy and and the language that doesn't exist just to kind of put it in a handy Package for newbies. It's not like that and we need to actually Combine and co-create the language And new language this is this is what we're doing and this is really the hard work And then just the last thing is the question of really who's the audience and even you know the smart people in the room and others in our circles um, you know, we're still Trying to come together and and figure this out and then and then from there This isn't really for everyone, but in my view not yet not right now So anyway, there's a lot more but yeah, and I don't I don't think confusion is a bad thing right, I think I think You know we're sense-making here And we're making sense of each other's sense-making And I think what I want to I want to just maybe advocate for is that we we are We are fair with each other about when we don't understand that we that we Take the time to explain that we don't understand so that we can Ultimately understand and I find that a lot of times People just if they don't understand they disengage and I think that's the opposite of where we need we need to be We need to be engaged in the tension in the Misunderstanding and and it's in the words misunderstood that we actually will be creative together, right? Um, at least that's my you know my belief so confusion is a good thing Only if we move through it toward a better understanding of each other I would just add I mean for us at least from my side I think you know understanding and all the kind of discourse that's great And that's necessary and that's the core the basis to kind of go from They are into action into actually doing stuff building stuff Even if it's messy even if it's not you know ready Um, you know just making it more tangible and concrete and practical Back to that practical knowledge ecology, but where's the practical part in the understanding? Well, that's useful, but what are you going to do with that? Let's find our way through these different projects and different methods to something that actually works p. Did you want to jump in? Okay, I thought I saw you just to jump in at klaus go ahead Yeah, I I think What i'm working on is really easy because when you think about soil It's a macro term, you know, it's a macro perspective Which then rolls into all kinds of activities that anyone can participate in know as a Uh, you know going out buying groceries you participate basically in the decision-making process But we are missing these macro signals in other parts of our conversation It has to come really down to the simplicity of a of a Directional understanding No, so the only way I can explain it is in my context is if you focus on soil everything else falls into place We're missing this kind of Markle context. Yes. I like that um Why don't we hit pause on our conversation there? I think that was a nice sort of grounding spot as well And we've got lots to think about and lots to figure out where we are Neil Neil and matt last words Jerry you've seen the diagram that I drew recently. I'm not sure what the conversation has been about to the last 20 minutes um The conversation the diagram that I was trying to draw was to say how do we use the tree analogy the soil analogy the garden analogy To look at the the knowledge ecologies that are going on here the stocks and flows that are in process The where the current values lie where the current information lies Who has what stake in it? What are we going to do with it? Right? All of these things are so critical um at the moment Both this online global mind and the peer-to-peer wiki are large knowledge knowledge repositories curated by Strange attractors in jerry and in in michelle balance that have the capacity because of their reputation And the beautiful work that they've done to draw a lot of people in for whatever reason There's also a lot of extraction going on. There's also a lot of anticipation about the potential value I could extract if I turned it into this or that or something else The question is for what you remember I asked this question at some time Go jerry and so what? All right. All right. We're doing this stuff for what purpose You know the stories here are all spiraling upwards through some sort of transdisciplinary integration story weaving threading Whatever it might be and if it's not for the benefit of humanity then what the fuck are we doing? All right, and given we know we're in collapse. What the fuck are we doing and given we know that this doesn't work What the fuck are we doing? All right, so how do we get to this point where we actually know The different roles and it's not about making it simple for everybody. It's about recognizing We have different levels of capability maturity understanding consciousness worldviews about how we hold this How do we hold the container for this complexity? All right, and how do we ascribe with mutually assistive community-based rules commons-based rules? Containers around those that can hold it and have a noble obligation to turn it into something useful for others And how do we somehow get return on investment for the maintenance of both the assets the stocks And the flows because unless we can change the way we're doing this stuff. We're screwed And so we're sitting here on a couple of big opportunities like big libraries, but if nobody has a key nothing happens Right. I saw the wonderful documentary recently on the library people in Sarajevo That saved over 10,000 rare manuscripts By going through sniper fire during war Because they knew that was what was needed Right and so these are the cultural seeds of the past that need to be kept for the future because these are the things We've learned from in our evolution and our civilization How do we preserve that seed bank now online global might might already be that seed bank But where's the soil to plant it in who's going to tend the trees? How do we make sure the water comes at the right time? How do we bring in the right amount of humus? How do we not kill things? How do we not record? How do we recognize from a weed and a productive plant and sometimes they're the both both Both at the same time. So To me, this is a knowledge ecology That we could be creating it's not about how do we force it in one direction or the other But how do we mutually respect and honor the different skills the different and diverse functional elements of this ecology? And so that's the diagram I've got I was going to share screens What I can't at the moment, but I'd love to share that with the group and I'm looking for the best way to do that Because I don't think this zoom call is the right place to do that How do we bring that sort of nucleus around which we can start to put some values into? Because unless we have some sort of common governance, I can't see this moving and it's the same thing with peer to peer Yeah, neil, maybe just I know I know jerry had to drop off, but we talked about a few weeks back about Having an extended design conversation about these things and I think it's time and I've shirked my responsibility of getting it organized You know, we tried to put something out there asking what the objectives are. I think the objective is pretty simple I think the objective is, you know, we need to design the soil You know metaphorically speaking or the architectures for which People can participate And feel good about the participation and and we're creating values. So my proposal is that two weeks from today on Thursday the 15th And we can start earlier if we need to for people who are on In european time We have to think about california, but let's let's do an all-day session Let's give ourselves the space and time to actually move beyond check-in into You know a design conversation I don't know how people feel about that That week is on holiday with the kids says charles We, you know, we got to find it. We got to find a date And I don't know how far out we want to go It feels like it feels like something so Um What What works for people in terms of a date? Do we want to go ahead with the 15th? Do we want to You know, do we want to pick like october 29th? Right before halloween. Do we want to pick, you know, let's just pick a date I think that's the first order of business and since you guys had the patience of staying on the top on the call What if people can can say I'd like to do it after the 15th. I would definitely Yeah Does the 29th work for people? Yeah October 29th. Okay. What what is our start time? And what is our end time as early as possible? Um west coast west coast people what's um, what's the earliest you guys are willing to to jump in here? Seven o'clock is pretty pretty early What time I mean seven o'clock our time best course time. That's pretty early Seven o'clock and so what is that seven o'clock for those of you in switzerland and in belgium? Oh, it's nice. It's four o'clock in the afternoon. Okay. Can you guys and how many hours can you guys give? I'm currently free all day 29th thursday 29th. Okay, so we're going to do thursday the 29th We're going to start at seven o'clock um West coast uh american u.s. Time and we're going to go for can we do can we do five hours? What time is that for us charles? It's 49 49. Yeah, you can do that. It's good. Okay. I'm sorry. What day is that? Did you say thursday or saturday? Thursday thursday. Okay. Okay thursday the 29th um thursday the 29th um I will I will take the responsibility of designing the session. I may reach out to some of you guys to help I know j you threw some things in there and neil you threw some things in there so We'll we'll work we'll work that and the goal here is for us to put some shape around How we will work together And what we need to build and what we need to do and to create room for All the projects but also to create the infrastructure For these projects to to begin to make sense in in context. All right Okay All right guys. Thank you And uh, love you all be safe and we'll uh, we'll see you next thursday Yeah, thanks everybody and yeah, I think it's interesting to see the dynamics You know swirling and spiraling upwards Let's hope and it's how we weave those threads together that's going to create a pattern that's uh worth looking at Yeah, cool Take care All right Hey neil, will you just hang up for a second? Yeah, sure mate. I've got the bells going in the background though Oh, okay. Here we go. They'll be right there. If the bells are going we can we can find another time. Um, maybe tomorrow No, no, this will be good. Stay here. It's all right All right, do you want to throw the host over to us or? Uh, yeah, sure cool Neil can I get your email? Yeah, sure. Judith. I'm let me write it down here for you Thanks, that you've got a host. All right. Thank you. Um, and I guess if people want to hang out they can hang out. Um I just wanted to I just wanted to start to start to while the iron is hot create a set of a, you know, create a set of um Like a purpose and objective statement Um You know for this, you know for this this thing and just to get people's you know, just to get people's comments and You know thoughts on where we are at, right? I tried to I you know, I purposely tried to you know Agitate the system there. So um, and then something happened Which I didn't understand In that process as well But I think that's just um, that's just something that uh, you know Is it's good to reconcile, right? It's good to good to have on the table. Um So let's Let's define a set of objectives. Um, you know for um for the session if you guys will right, I think For me some of the things that I've I've heard is You know one one question is you know, um, what the fuck are we doing here, right? Um Yeah, sorry for sorry for my French. I've been in Belgium for too long. Um, no, I think that's a great. I think that's a great. Um Um, a great thing. Um, are we doing here, right? I think it comes back Just to throw in the back to last week, um the thread on rain on bootstrapping Uh within the context of ogm was Jerry's way that he The language for that question but and I pointed out that that you know that ogm In the context of ogm is is also not clarified. It's not really defined So what are we doing here? Where's even here actually? Yeah, I think and charles, I don't know if you were referencing this, but how are we going to fund our time Right, I think that's you know, that was in there, but um, you you you ended with what is even here, right? Um Well, I'm being a little bit playful. I mean, I think just just to kind of clarify Minimum minimum definition of the container of ogm, you know, what is it that is bringing us together Beyond just you know, jerry being really cool and calling us, but um, I mean, that's a that that goes very far in fact To go back to the beginning of this Romer had kind of a similar question, right? What what is this thing and how can I fit in and you know, what are we trying to do? I think that there's a question about um operating model right, um Because I think the operating model right now. We only have one up. We have two operating model elements, we have a check-in which Is going to it's progressively getting frustrating. I think for people um And we're enduring it because we like hearing what people are working on but we have a we have a check-in and then we have a kind of a wild west of um things like discourse and Other things where people are Pontificating various things, right? But we need to we need to understand what is the operating Operating model is that fair? Yeah, for me matt. I mean there's there's an information asymmetry that I'm aware of because I don't know What was in what I didn't have time to read Right and so, you know, I'm always operating from a position of scarcity of understanding and so how can I say Uh, what it is. I think it should be doing unless it comes across in a confrontational way to shake the system and see what happens And complex adaptive systems adapt by seeing themselves in motion Right, and if you can't see all the moving pieces, it's hard to say Well, how do I fit with the other starlings in the flock or where the hell's the shark coming from, you know, and so To me there's a need for the zoom out and the zoom in But a structure around which to hang that would be really useful rather than leaping to the model for how it should work Um, I'm just wondering here If if I can share my screen for a moment to show the diagram and see if it resonates If it does it gives a starting point If it doesn't then I like that's okay. We can do something else But I've got a power point diagram here that's possibly worth sharing because it was the thing that I think you can I think you can share So see if you can share Okay, let me see if this works Here we go. Okay so, uh Slide show Current slide will it let me? Yes Okay from current slide Okay, if you guys over the side there make you really small Right. So what I was trying to and in fact it's interesting that, uh, gcc the global What was it global challenges? Group came up today because this is a diagram that I put to them about two and a half three years ago now Um, I've modified it since but it came from work by koizumi and others talking about Brain science and it was multiple disciplines on a base plate Okay, and how they integrated across that base plate and it showed a transdisciplinary vector of how You know by weaving these multiple disciplines They got a higher outcome than they would have done just by having individual discipline silos So please say anything if I'm going too fast or something you want to clarify because I've I've turned Vision of what you guys are doing so I can't see the body language off so to me the knowledge commons for example peer-to-peer wiki and online global mind Are sitting in this spiral with the potential to be woven Into shared embodied collective intelligence and content Which potentially creates carefully stewarded knowledge gardens But the overall intention is that I would believe this is again throwing it out there Emergence of better more efficient more effective and whole systems engagement and solutions Right because we're giving information. We're giving knowledge We're giving woven information to people at different levels according to where they're coming from There's multiple sources of content feeding in as the roots There's a mindful curation process which has to somehow sense Why am I bringing this together? And I think this is gerry's core question I've been doing this for 20 years, but what am I going to do with it, right? So there's an understanding of systemic crises and needs over here And hopefully bringing solutions to the ground in real projects On the way up. We've got a transdisciplinary synthesis vector, which is doing the weaving We've got the potential for multiple tools models and processors We're trying to create attention and hope and attract resources Towards things that are going to be more useful than will otherwise be if they sit in the library all day And so for that we need networks of networks Of trustworthy systems aware participants with whole system improvement intent And koizumi's work was originally around dynamic and transparent processes of adding new dimensions to multi-disciplinary collaboration Fusing and bridging different disciplines to create new fields innovative processes tools and models And collaboration amongst knowledge holders And I've added a couple in here, but scientists, scholars, action research practitioners Communities and decision makers on behalf of humanity and ecology and so When I sowed this seed in front of george pour who's doing a lot of work around collective intelligence and education And michelle bounds michelle wants me to share it in the peer-to-peer wiki I copied in michelle and gerry on on facebook and so We got to a point where uh, this is a recognition that this Basic sort of model at least starts to show some of some of the stocks and flows and the questions we could be asking So my question to you is if this is a useful starting point Could we build questions around? Who are we doing this for for what purpose at what level and allow the space for people to play at whatever level they They want to use it and whatever level they want to extract from it But how do we also support the process? There's other diagrams, which I won't share here because at the moment there they've got commercial and confidence players in them But for example peer-to-peer commons And peer-to-peer processes have been invited to be partners with a major european project But who are peer-to-peer in the same way? Who is ogm? And you know within that context, how do we create a vehicle to take the money that's on offer to bring The value that can be created to ground what does a legal entity look like that does this that Is actually not just curating the knowledge but extracting some of the value and putting it back into the commons And so how do we apply this? Yeah, I'll leave it there for now. Yeah, thanks neil judy. Do you want to jump in and then um, we'll go to you p Yes, sorry. I wasn't watching the body language. I'll come back to you all first of all with a great graphic neil and I think it almost provides the template for how we could work in the workshop Because we could structure breakout groups around different dimensions that you've well defined um, I still think very key to this is early testing of outputs in terms of how we would choose to communicate or invite or form working groups or tiny experiments of that nature On the bringing it back to real projects will change But I love your graphics. So I hope you'll share it with us in ogm and At whatever point it's open to do that. Um, it's really powerful And gives me I just want to kind of go sit with and think about all the different zones of it And where I can contribute because I'm not a technology person But I'm a change agent And beautiful And that's and I'm not a tech person corporation. It's kind of in my role in every group I've ever been in So let's go to yeah, so let's go to one of our tech people. Sorry to interrupt Peter, I know you wanted to jump in Yeah, uh, thanks matt and thank you neil. I like the diagram very much Um, I apologize. I have a yes, but comment instead of a yes and comment and I was going to try saying yes and But I I would really just be saying that because It's a pro forma. So, um, so if I had more time or more something or more attention, maybe I can make it a yes sound, but anyway Um, I like it a lot. Uh, I wish the core of it was not knowledge, but sense making Um, and I wish it wasn't a noun as much as a verb, right? So it's like more like knowing this and wisdom mean and um, wising Um, I also I think it's kind of implicit in the diagram, but maybe to make it more explicit there's a The the knowledge hierarchy of going from data information knowledge wisdom, you know and up I think there's something there to where we're actually trying to Um trying to evolve a consciousness And not just capture, you know, what what something is right now I So that's that I have one more thought also I the as we talk about ogm as an organization and having a structure and things like that um, it's my wish or dream or or hope or or whatever that um When I come to ogm, I think of it I try to think of it Jerry says umbrella is one of the things that he says and for me an umbrella contains a federation and not It's not so it's not an organization so I know there's a big tension between, you know, structuralistness and structure um I think I think the whole world needs to be better at being knowing how to be federated and knowing how to federate Wants and desires and needs and you know requests and asks and gives And how how that How those exchanges work, right? So, um So some part, you know some part of the ogm cluster or cloud or federation Maybe is something that needs to be making money But then I wouldn't say that as ogm needs to make money, right? There's somewhere in the federation Collective there are parts that make money and parts that don't and parts that I don't give away money and you know parts that whatever Parts that have nothing to do with money or or any kind of you know exchange value. It's just all gift economy or whatever Yeah, so You know p this is to me I think the heart of the of what we need to do in the session, right? So neil proposed a model Um, you know judith look like she said this is an interesting model to start with so let's go with this model um, I think p you did a nice job of saying i'm going to actually Do a little debate here the butt side and you started to propose your own mental model and I think before we Say what are all the work projects that we're going to do and how are we going to execute this model and all this kind of stuff? I think we need to spend some time trying to align on the mental model itself Right and so what I would propose that we do in this session is we give everybody An opportunity to write down on paper their mental model of what this thing is And then we start to compare those mental models and we start to align those mental models and I I think with five hours we're going to Only be able to get some conceptual Guiding principles or agreements about about those models and not fully, you know fully having rendered But I think we can we can get further on that and and maybe that's the objective And so Charles and then Judith because I I think that was the way that the hand raised and then you know And maybe we don't need to call on people here since we're such a small group, but um, you know Charles jump in I just want to go back to the knowledge repository And I appreciated that aspect, you know of what you were sharing there and I also like Judy would like to sit with it and kind of process and kind of split it out in terms of of the the process flow and the further sort of practical steps, you know and and with with the the kind of tangible Stuff of like the recordings of our meetings and the transcripts and so forth like like this is what we deal with in key collab as you know and and and and very much about the process that the tasks at hand and the roles Involved and how we can take on the different roles in just the The basis of of of who we are and what we are which is in the knowledge repository as I see it um in real time as an emerging model in terms of the ideas um and then last thing is is um, I guess Call it ownership for lack of a better word But you know, how is that how is literally the data and the repository held and and dealt with and accessed and so forth I think these are fundamental and will will um Sort of ripple out into all the other areas of governance that that we want to talk about and find out about I was just going to comment that perhaps in terms of our working session If we did the homework ahead of time in contemplating the model and tuning or whatever that you mentioned matt as a starting point We could come in with this concept To modify slightly in the first portion briefly And then identify breakout group areas for the different dimensions of it because some are processed some are content Some are you know all the different areas That would need to be framed to actually Build the end result And then come back together Um, that would be actually collective creative time And yeah, you know just to give you that with this group of people I'd have trouble keeping the right breakout group, but that's okay. Yeah I know just to give you guys a sense of how our process works and you know five hours is um Is actually not generally not enough time for groups of people to do good design work, right? You know my ideal state is a is it's usually a three-day process But um, I don't know if we have the patience or the energy for that But it does start usually starts with the individual perspectives, right? And we have everybody Imagine a future and we give them a set of questions right now We're generating those questions and I can create that assignment in advance And get it out to everybody. So I think And and it's an assignment everybody does their Does their assignment and that's where you start you start with everybody sharing across the things Then you you move from individual perspectives to a small group perspective To a large group conversation where you start to align around certain certain things and then we usually go into some You know some Multi-dimensional call it thinking right where we take we take the cube of the problem when we break it up And you know, we have to identify what those things are people go work workshop those problems You know design challenges and then we come together and then usually we we we go through this kind of muddling about design iteration phase and we then ask people we have a synthesis conversation where we align on what are the buckets of work We break people vote with their feet on what bucket that they want to work on and then they Create their own deliverable plan And then that's that's what the action agenda is coming out of the session for people to go to work And then you begin, you know keep that process now Five hours is hard to do that. So I think we have to just think and maybe I can ask you guys that next thursday we get together After our check-in just like we are today if people are willing and I walk through in a design You guys push it then we go and we write that pre-work assignment and we start workshopping this so You just signed up to be the sponsor team And if I if I if I can just add to that I love what you've all said like love what Pete said I loved what Judith said and what Charles said around And I can weave that into the current diagram The reason I threw it on the table was that without some sort of common visual then there isn't a starting point And so it's not to say mine is the one it's Here's here's the best map. I've been able to create myself Who else knows part of the territory here that needs to be included? If you know what about it than me then I'd have to trust you to put it in there, right? So if we did that and we use next week and I can get that around to you guys If you tell me where to send that to so what is the best place Pete probably the best one to advise on Which platform to send what to where? I think am I right Pete? Yeah, so I'm still learning who's who in the zoo and who does what to whom and how but the To me if I could if that diagram provides a starting point I can modify take out some of the references that are irrelevant There's a couple of other things behind that that I've also been playing on that I can put into two or three Four maybe slides send those to you see if they're useful because I've had to be doing this thinking about How do we do we have a legal entity to connect with a real project? And does it differ for belgium for holland for you know for america? And yeah, exactly and so To me but the generic tool the generic thing here is there's a knowledge commons which potentially is woven into a wisdom Pool, you know, which is then delivered through what to where for whom for what purpose? And how do we support the maintenance of the processes which keep that tree of knowledge alive? Yeah, neil. I mean I I definitely think we should we can use your model as a basis for Developing a set of design questions what I would propose though Is instead of us starting with a model for this group to react to that? We ask everyone to bring their own model to the to the meeting Because I think I think in doing that we become much more inclusive In in this process and that's not to say that once everybody brings their own model people don't say okay This is the best articulation or what can we bring in? But I think if you don't ask people to bring their own mental models in What we're doing is we're in a state of propose and dispose Versus co-creation so Let's use your get your model around to this group of people Let's use it as a way to identify a set of design questions Right, but let those design questions be the guide to help other people create their own mental models And that's where we will start with a sharing of mental models. I think that's the best way to get get involvement But please push back and judith This is a yes, and I agree with everything you said matt and clearly we've had some similar life experiences in how to get workshops to be productive Mine were in corporate and organizational settings, but same in event We kind of have two different goals here I think though because the initial goal of ogm I believe was Really a good repository that could be used by people so that we were making decisions in context And the action vector of how that gets used and by whom and at what scale and at what level Is very different for all of the purposes And I think the dimension that's complicating it is the process Of the utility of ogm And the groups that would use it and how they would use it and that's almost a whole separate workshop but Yeah, that's where people are planning to go But that's where I was hoping it would ultimately go or that I could easily just extract from it and use it as Here's information here are ways to problem solve etc. Yeah, and judith I think I think that um your understanding of the kind of the original conversations that jerry and I were having about ogm Maybe got moved into Really just the knowledge knowledge management space, but we talked about You know again my frame has always been about How do we better sense what's going on actually? How do we better make sense of that and create no meaning and then how do we better change make? Coming out of that sense making and that we talked about there being service layers on top of the sense making layer on top of the sensing You know, you know devices and so I think you're you're absolutely right We're we're all playing at different parts of that of that ecology and And so I think maybe the other thing that we should really do here is to free people up of what they think this is and move them into a place of what um What they imagine it could be and it's full in its fullness because I don't want What we believe jerry wants To become a you know part of the thinking process here, right? And so I I completely agree with what you're you know what you're saying About we have to we have to make sure that it's the full That we are we are asking the question about the fullness of what this thing could be versus just the knowledge To me it comes back to the dendrites. We've talked about and you know, I love that word, but There's so mulch multi-dimensionality of this Yes, I think we don't want to worry about perfecting one piece of it without the experience and experiments of dissemination and use and so That's a a process concept Rather than a product concept, but I think the process is what we want to enable Yes, right resources Lauren, I didn't hear what you said I say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes Can I can I say can I talk? Yeah. Well, I know But charles do you want to defer to lauren? Yeah, I'll come back after one Okay Yeah, I was just thinking that um What I'd like and I don't you know, know if anyone else feels this but um What's how I think uh, we could the mission of ogm cannot Uh, I think we can create the conditions for emergence for that to happen Best by increasing a discoverability. We call this discoverability and disambiguation between the you know groups and people And that is better defining and sense making who is everyone And what are they actually doing and what are they about right now? It's really difficult Um, because we all have we're all working on emerging stuff and we don't really have the vocabulary is difficult to Understand who's good at what and who's working. It's just like so much stuff So if uh, we can get together I think a plan Of sense making that and better defining that how do we better define who the people are then I think that the like What ogm is can can emerge from that? Backwards Yeah, one one of the diagrams I'm gonna I'm actually gonna break you off and I'm gonna go to charles because he's been waiting. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Um Yeah, I'm interested neil anyway, but yeah back on back on the the deep profiles and the hash bins I think it points to a lot of the stuff that we're doing those are the ways and the forms that we're doing them Um, but I wanted to actually just float a question over to pete Um in regard to the repository of ogm because you're one of the keepers In in the sense of you know, the spacemakers of the discourse in particular and sort of I I guess I'm aware obviously and much more active in the in the email forum Google Google group. Um, I dip my toe Barely into the the discourse, but I'm aware that that's happening. Um, and then we have um like the recording Of the video right now and the transcripts and so forth all of that is the body of Data and content that is the ogm knowledge repository. I might be leaving out big chunks, but I guess like if there's a quick Way to to to say, you know, how it's going. What is it actually and is it To what how coherent is it actually? The good question, um Jerry and I are both trying hard to centralize things into discourse the discourse forum um, because it's got Kind of the I think of it as bandwidth It's got a lot of surface area where you can put stuff and it stays there and it's easily findable later and and things like that There's a lot of I wouldn't say a lot, uh, I think All of us have a little bit of frustration with the forum mechanism. Um, it's you know, it's it's got its limitations But it's better than an email list. It's better than slack or irc or matter most. It's better than A media wiki, you know, so it's it's the least bad place So coherence is a interesting Interesting question You'll see that jerry spends most of his time on the mailing list And he's had a hard time getting into The rhythm of of the forum and and it's not because I I have that same problem. Um, I can spend a little bit more time on it So I've gotten a little bit more into Discourse and I I I even started to get little surprises There's little affordances and things like that where somebody was typing somebody posed an interesting question And I was writing reply and it said somebody else is writing reply at the same time There's some really cute little things with discourse. Um, and It's full featured and has the places to put things like videos and and you know documents and Like links to videos at least uh transcripts and you know have a long thread of stuff that you can come back to later and find and And make bring a new person in and show them something So discourses is the place. Um, we're still working on coherence You'll see ogm calls get posted by jerry to you know, the recording and the transcript They get posted the announcement kind of in the link gets posted on the ogm list Another place where our knowledge repository lives is jerry's brain. Um, so He posts a link into jerry's brain and then if i'm good I'll capture those links and stick them in a thread on the forum and I haven't been doing that very very well But we could do better at that and maybe even get jerry to post into the forum Mostly instead of into the into the list um I can also tell a little bit that there's a free jerry's brain subgroup of ogm the data geeks and and You know hypertext experts and things like that We we actually kind of made a little bit of a breakthrough this week. Um I created a little thing that is able to navigate Any brain including jerry's brain um through the api So we're reading data out of out of the brain and uh the next step will be kind of remembering it as we read it. Um, so um To the extent that ogm is kind of centered around the repository of knowledge that's jerry's brain We're starting to break that free. Um, which is super exciting. I think Thanks. Yeah, just just to throw in the the the other part of my using that word coherence was was practical So I think you already responded to that but you know, how can we use this access it and and so forth? So thanks I see neil had his hand up. You'll see also in chat that we had, you know, neil's like, okay So, you know, how do I disseminate the what I've got? Um, so maybe maybe that's your question neil or Yeah, that was part of it, but it also comes to matt's question How do we better define and understand the participants in the system and the knowledge they can contribute and to lauren's point about what are we currently doing? And it's not just what are we currently doing is what is it? We need to do if we're going to survive? And so the you know, who do I need to become and What you just said pete about technical capability and the technical nerds doing the the beautiful work in the technical competency area That is uh around Increasing certainty. We know better how to do this We know better how to do this Right, there's another axis. So that's certainty and agreement is the other one How do we get people to agree if they're very very far out? They're very very different And where those two axes of agreement and certainty come together we can plan because we have order because we all agreed and we're all certain When you get further out you're into emergence and then into chaos, right? And so when you map then on on that diagram where people are comfortable Some people are very good high people skills with no technical capability. Some people are very high technical with no people skills The people that can hold the space for all of those skills are critical to hold the container for all of these skills and so The emergence will come once the system can see itself both the individuals and the potentials in those individuals And sometimes the person who currently is best for the job isn't necessarily the person who wants to do that job And may not be the person tomorrow because their calling takes them in a completely different direction So the question then is what is the collective calling? And if it's not how do we start to solve complex wicked problems, you know in the face of collapse This is where I've been trying to go with what are we here for right? But I can't get that level of conversation because most of the people I'm engaging with don't get it Don't want to get it are in denial or incapable of holding that complexity And yet if we can if for those of us to hold that complexity, I believe we have a noble obligation A blessed oblige to hold space for those who can't yet And to enable them to step into their potentials to become who they need to become This is the warrior mindset if we don't do this we're fucked All right, and so if if the best job I can do is chop wood Then turn me loose on chopping wood, right? But if you think I'm capable of doing something else and how do we mutually recognize and mutually assist Those who are doing stuff, which is so complex or too conscious for most people to recognize the value of How do we reward those that have been curating the brain for 20 years? At the same time is how do we reward those that are having to clean the toilets or chop the wood or whatever else it might be In the context of our vision is put a mount on the moon or our vision is You know provide ways through the evolutionary bottleneck for humanity, right? Whatever is the overarching purpose Yeah, to me. I think there's a vision and some processes Yeah, you've said exactly what I've been thinking all along because what I'm finding is that I can only pursue this construct with certain percentages My friends mostly I can have this conversation But a lot of other people that I meet more casually It's way off the deep end of the pool for this and so that that question that that I think we have to look at In addition to your diagram is maybe a whole separate diagram that's not about knowledge curation But process curation and how do we apply the process at every different level in order to sort of maximize the potential for shared learning At all the different levels Now this becomes a huge process obviously But I think that how you would optimize the process for cool laboratory is different than how you would optimize the process for CEOs Etc. Etc. Correct and and um two things Judith one is um, when you're chatting now, you're still chatting privately to me versus some of the things that I Oh, sorry Oh, it's okay. Um The um, you know, the other thing is scott and I'd love to just jump with you here in just a second but you know your idea of Is it too big for us to have a common vision? I think You know to neil's point I mean one of my you know that you everyone's heard the story of when some when Kennedy came into nasa and asked the janitor. What does he do here? He said that you know, I'm helping to put a man on the moon, right? I think everybody when they're chopping the wood or doing whatever has to feel A sense of what they're, you know a sense of what they're doing in the bigger You know the bigger picture that doesn't mean that we all know all of the interworkings and all of the details of You know the vision of what we're building whether it's technically or you know, you know those sorts of things, so I I really love where this conversation is going. Let me just ask and I know scott you want to jump in here Where are we right now? I feel like I have enough to You know enough of these questions and stuff to To go off and and start to create a little bit of a an agenda a process for us For the for that time And we can get the invitation out and I think we need to also make sure that we're inviting to that conversation Maybe not just the usual suspects, but or maybe we do maybe maybe it's just the kind of the people who Show up to these calls needs to need to be the starting point, but I'd love to get your guys take on participants So scott and then we can talk about participants um This has been fascinating to listen to and The thing that I've said from the beginning for me is my attempt To try to take some of this and translate it to a I like to say kids audience um, but I think that that that works in a number of different contexts because These are deep thoughts and you are all deep thinkers And I think you know judas has mentioned in a number of times as well. Um, that Making this accessible I think is that that's a that's something that I can do um, I I can make that that bridge but what I wanted to To bring up and it's something that I've I've learned in the last couple of years that Kind of shocked me and I've been trying to deal with it Intelligence is the ability to manipulate concepts and be interested in ideas and and Understand things faster and that sort of thing, but it's a it's a genetic lottery And we don't want to talk about that it's So far no one has been able to change intelligence to any significant degree and you get what you get And yet we we treat that as a negative And it's it's not a negative. It's just simply You know where to end up on the on the the skip spare, you know And the example that I heard was that the The u.s. Military will not accept anyone below 85 On the on the IQ scale Because they learned that that was not productive for them because they couldn't Teach they couldn't give they couldn't find them a job to do And the only reason I say that is that's the bottom Like 16 percent or something like that and I would say that we all lucked out and are in the top 16 percent and it's easy to forget that most people are not Don't have that ability. They might be stronger. They might be better to organize groups. They might be more empathetic, they might be Handsomer they might you know, they have all their own genetic lottery winnings but But that I've been trying to say well, this is something that I was I I got a good wool of dice. That's all I got And so what can I do to to use that in a way that benefits people and it and it felt like A translation Like like how can I How can I help take some of these things that I can understand and translate them so that More people can understand to make them them useful for themselves And that that was the only thing I wanted to say is that I I see all of the great work that we're doing and that That I feel like one of the roles or the role that that I'm trying to help play is to take that and feed it off to people who Like like I think Matt you were saying you were holding up that book and saying You're a really smart guy and this book is really hard to understand And you know that there's there's great things inside of it But but you know, even you are struggling with that and how do we get these useful things out to people? Yeah, so anyway, that that's just kind of the concept that I had so And and I hear what you're saying scott. I worry you know Part of the reason why I'm able to understand this book is not just my intelligence It's the fact that I'm a I'm a I'm white. I'm male It's because you know, my my parents were too busy to raise me So they sent me to some weird private school on the hill with a bunch of hippies who taught me how to think So I think we have to be also be careful about You know the the inherent privileges that come with having people who teach us how to think and and and teaching people how to think is something that we you know is You know as part of this and so I want to I understand and maybe there are genetic differences, but I just want to be very That's a better way of saying what I was saying. I agree with that inclusiveness. I think I do believe in teaching people thinking and so so I Yes, I agree with what you're saying and that it still goes to how do we or how do I Use my thinking skills that I've been blessed with to be able to help other people find the path That they might not even know exists Pete just the book is down down to earth by Bruno Latour and Doug has been pushing it and it's It really is a reframing book and I know charles you wanted to jump in but I see your hand is down and other people's are up But who wants to go next? Neil seems more uh eager, but I I'd want to say something too You got first charles Well, just pretty briefly I um back on Uh, let's see now. Do I actually have the thread it was it's about the Back on actually matt what you said much earlier in the main call about kiko lab And how you don't really understand and and you know, you're not alone And I think we did we did improve a lot in terms of the languaging on our website and in another um profile that we put together at the alliance for a conscious internet, but um So we're we're refining our language, but I think um the way I tend to I consistently see it as in through the process of refining as just down to the the the essential components the elements of um what learn And I call the wisdom stack sort of a workflow collective intelligence workflow with with it's essentially really low tech It's basically all duct taping and um It it doesn't have to stay in duct taping mode, but we can get really far with like very rudimentary tools But they have to work together play together dance together and that's on the human side It's not like the tools are not really built for that for the most part This interoperability So I'm saying a bunch of things but back to you know, the interoperability is core The components each are core in in in how they're put together in a very particular processes flows sequences iterations and and and you know phases of of of going through these kind of clusters of Of workflows and and and there is complexity It just is and you know, you can dumb it down in terms of like how you explain each part It ends up being like a quite lengthy laundry list And so it's been really hard to kind of avoid the laundry listing and the the using fancy words We can kind of use simpler words, but there's still a lot of parts to explain and how they all fit together And I don't know if it's about simpler words or less simple words, right? I I um, I'm a trained artist That's what I went to school for I went to graduate school and I ended up leaving the art world because I felt it was in some ways highly masturbatory right the conversations between Um, you know myself and my teachers and stuff were very very much related to or Very inwardly focused and about sort of the kind of the pleasure of being on the inside Group and referencing other people and those sorts of things and you've built up a pattern language over time that language are you know, it is the Is the is the core mental models, you know that we use as human beings It's the very beginning and it's the in in some ways. It's some of the hardest things to change And so over time working in all these groups you've built pattern languages, right? You use the word flow and processes and Things like that in different ways than I use those words And so that's where the confusion comes in is I think it's in it's in it's in the pattern language And so, you know, do we take time? To actually codify the language that we use So that we can all use it and and versus just using it and hoping other people can kind of intuit what it means It takes time to make it to make that coherent Yeah, we need we need it. We need it We need a dictionary and and lexian and and part of what makes this book hard Is he introduces a word like modernist at the beginning and he defines it and then he uses it You know later on expecting you to really remember it So you have to work you have to work the language as much as anything So jude, hey, sorry. Wait, do you wait until you get to metamodern then you're screwed? One more phrase which is which is And and p has gone a little further with what I said on this is the the idea of the minimum viable ontology I go with judy Well, I just want to come back to some wisdom that I saw recently when I was scouting out self-learning modules for folks that could be used for homeschooling and stuff and the american chemical society And I forwarded this to our snarky group, but not to the whole GM OGM list Is going with age appropriate which in a sense can be translated and easily to capacity related ability for intake of learning If we can go to more graphic and artistic approaches of showing how things work and invite people into understanding change as a process the steps of change the The new seed that grows something and changes the garden whatever we want to do that's kind of metaphorical But art and visual is a very powerful way To invite change in universal levels And that's a whole different dimension that could be explored As we look at not just talking to ourselves in the intellectually elite of the world Now a lot of those people are in positions of influence So that doesn't mean we shouldn't communicate with them too In an appropriate way to reach that particular group of individuals and biases And I mean that positively negatively on bias and I think I've probably said enough. I'm kind of rambling here If I can just pick up on a couple of things that have been said Scott I hear what you're saying. I don't see it as elitist. I see it as using our privilege for good Secondly, we've had part of this conversation before around indigenous wisdom And indigenous knowledge is an indigenous language and their pattern languages were related to the earth on which they walked Right and which they stewarded And so the deep indigenous wisdom is the step beyond just wisdom Wisdom is the application of knowledge in systems context. Correct indigenous wisdom is the application of knowledge in systems context with deep time Forward and backwards thrown in seven generations On the terrestrial body exactly in the terrestrial exactly and the beauty of this coming back to scott's point is that The stories told around the campfire were told in the same language Relevant to the current present day. I what we've walked through what we're going to go through tomorrow where the seasons are at What's happening now? That could be told by any one of the speakers who who was given the task for that night But they had to make sense to everybody from the equivalent of the theologians to the kindergarten kids But the deep wisdom was inherent in the story The education process was based on asking the next question not having the next answer And so when the student asked the next question, they got referred to the next level of knowledge custodian Don't talk to me. I'm an intern talk to the professor Don't talk to the professor talk to them talk to the dean whatever else the structural hierarchy might be But the wisdom hierarchy was in the knowledge curation and the knowledge holder And the respect for those was because the story was being told True to cause true to common oral understanding in a language that made sense in current systems context And if we can't do that with the ogm, I'll be very surprised Provider we share the same understanding of systems context Right, otherwise we're wasting our time creating another business model for somebody who's not going to be here in 10 years time because of sea level rise So, you know, how do we actually Create models that work for the future Unless we show what's changed in the past use language that makes sense and bring people on the journey Regardless of what level of development they're at understanding they're at and doing that and this is where metamod comes into it Unlocking the potentials hidden in each of each of us. It's not just the intelligence. What other sorts of intelligences The guild model that I've heard mentioned a couple times if i'm correct in my assumption It means that at least some sort of hierarchical recognition that although i'm a silversmith I'm a day one silversmith not fourth generation silversmith with 60 years of experience And so it's recognizing and respectful of the elders who are holding a different level of knowledge custodianship Within a common system of knowledge within a common language in a common systems context So one of the one it just real quick and I want to just play process facilitator here for a second You know always with my sponsors when we're doing a sponsor conversation And this is what this feels like in terms of designing the you know a session You start to get into place where you start doing the work of the of the session And that's usually an indication that you're on the right hunt, but also that You're sort of ready to call them, you know call the sponsor conversation complete And and decide whether or not you want to spend more time You know doing some solutioning to understand what's going on or or to call it So I think that's where we're at and if we want to continue this conversation. That's you know, that's fine I know it's um, it's 12 30 east coast time. I know it's late for some people um And early or you know different things, but um, where are we get where are we at before we continue? I'm hungry and I'm going to go soon Yeah, no, but like why don't we why don't we call it? Um, why don't we make the next step here? Um, which is I'll put together a design document a process document something that we can outline for Um, you know next week You know, I think There's a couple of different component pieces that go into any one of these sessions You need the right process, but you also need the right participants Can everyone think about who's the right group of participants? Right. I think um on zoom, you know, we could probably handle a group of maybe 21 um, maybe You know, that's probably a good, you know a good thing. We tend to break out into teams of You know five So maybe 20 and we get four groups of people the more people you have just the more time you need because you're You know diverging and converging and stuff. Um, and everybody needs the chance to speak so Um, I think we should really think about what are the vantage points we want and who do we and you know, Who do we invite what about what about just doing? Like a survey or a couple of quick quickish surveys Like to get the questions out there and to get us already like putting our responses together in advance Yeah, I think the whole thing it's still pretty abstract for me Like we know who we want to work with or we like to hang out with and interact with and who's very creative and productive In sessions, but but you know, what's the the point of focus? Yeah, so that's what I want to talk about next week after, you know, let's say after the call Check-in next week I'll I'll put out there the design document which will have sort of the purpose objectives of the session As well as the flow of the session as well as what we think the pre-work You know the pre-work is and then if we agree to That that pre-work that's when we would we would send it out But I want to know who we're sending it out, you know, kind of who we're sending it out to You know my general recommendation is there's been people who have attended these Thursday morning check-ins Um, and that's who we would send it out to I do wonder about our diversity Um, and if we're going to be designing something, but I I don't want to bring new people necessarily in Who aren't participants, but there are some people on discourse who participate all the time that never come on our Thursday checking call So, um, I just think we should just think about If if the general purpose is to define what the fuck are we doing here? Right and what is this thing and how do we organize this thing? Um, so that we Start to start to move from just discourse to you know aligned momentum around things Um, you know, who would you want to bring and let's Let's get one more week cycle and then Charles I think we come to that, you know, we come back to that question about getting some things out to people I I just wanted to because I um just to quickly call it Scott I'm really resonating with with this role that you're called to Perform in regard to translation and I would you know, I think we we want to learn and I want to come Together and connect more with you anyway, but I think maybe that is a great place for all of us to start But but at least we can energize that that conversation for sure Just just a very quick Anecdotal comment. I remember in my early church going experience that they would bring the kids up to the front and there was You know, the lesson was for the kids, but it was not told It was told to the kids, but the whole congregation is listening And it was the lesson had to be digestible for the little ones, but it also Resonated at a higher level because everyone brought their own Context into that and so I I think that If I can't teach a kid what we're doing And I don't I don't understand what we're doing And and maybe that's the way that I try to to frame it for myself And I think you know, we have always great conversations, but but that's sort of the litmus test for me I had a quick exchange. I just sit very quickly really on this point. Um with what's um a Turkish guy that that um I know musician who's also organizing stuff And I sent him the stuff about kiko lab and and and then we we found that we we had this point of commonality around the kids learning stuff And but then he said right away and this was all in a telegram chat But but you know, how are kids gonna you're doing stuff for kids? How are kids going to understand this and then I found I could look it up It was kind of I I put it better than then I'm going to do right now But you know, that's a that's a heavy load to put on a on a kid on especially little kids to have You know to be able to understand a lot of this stuff And in terms of having you know, and and there was sort of the idea of leadership in this conversation and you know to kind of Expect or ask or even hope, you know in some ways for kids to leave. That's just a big question Yes, they do and they're smarter than we are in so many ways and more creative and a whole bunch of things um, I But but but but we We are Responsible. Oh, hey Jerry's back In in certain ways that that we don't you know kids kids need and deserve their childhood Sorry, I think you get the point Let me say this in a in a simplified way that that I'll just encapsulate this way So my introduction to systems thinking was in april I'm 54 years old and that was the first time I'd ever heard of it and I found it through The cabrera research lab, which is one group of people who are doing work on that and they've They've honed it down to d s r p distinctions Parts and holds relationships and perspectives And they teach these they say those are the lego blocks of all thinking and there are videos of them working in schools with with First graders teaching them how to Make distinctions between this and that how to divide things into parts and holds how to connect And see relationships and how to view them from different perspectives And it wasn't that this subject matter that they were dealing with was super heavy What it was is they were teaching them how to think at the same time as they were teaching them Whatever the subject was and so then they could use the how to think tools With the next subject and the next and the next And that was what I was thinking of and I think Neil you had started talking about the difference between Kind of what we're doing and how we do it And the process and Judith, I think you agreed with that having the process curation in addition to the actual knowledge curation and this felt to me with the kids It was the process That was so important to teach them how to have a dialogue How to think how to be open how to look at something and say what do I think about this? And and that's kind of the way I thought about it not introducing the kids to topics that they Can't handle because it's just it's too it's too much Just to pick up Firstly Scott. Yeah, I muted instead of unmuting Firstly, I agree with the kindergarten with the Sunday school story, right? But that's a known story with multiple levels of meaning Depending on the learning and the complexity and the capacity of the adults to hold something greater than what the kids get I'm not diminishing the the potentials in kids But kids kids aren't going to save the planet kids are going to inherit the planet that we leave them and When I did my work in the united nations regional center of expertise for education and sustainability in australia trying to get this started It's the parents that are preventing the kids from doing what they're learning and what they already have the capacity to do And so we have to change the current paradigm thinking current neoliberal current economy current measures current gdp current structures current inequalities In that's not the kids holding that right? We can't at this point wait for the kids to get there because time is so short And so the the point I think people might agree with here and this is what we were saying Matt was saying if we include more people it gets harder because we've got to bring them up to speed All right. Why because there's an information asymmetry Why because we don't know who they are why because we don't know if they're capable or mature enough You don't turn a three-year-old loose with the keys to the car right so while we don't like what we might not like the idea Of having some sort of structural functional hierarchy here We need to say who is capable of traveling further faster now And how do we transcend to then include and I haven't seen jerry's talk yet, but that's on trust Who do we enable to go further faster on behalf of all of us? And who will come back for us? So it's not we're leaving them behind and we're not including them It's to transcend to then include not wait until we're all included to try and transcend Because that's the developmental journey which has been broken by the atomized model. We live in today Right and and our democracy is broken by this incapacity to hold the plurality And the different levels of capability maturity and the fake news and all the other bullshit that goes on around it In the context of what is coherently real with the cosmos and what is coherently real what earth needs And what is coherently real what my capability is And if we can get the vertical literacy the vertical alignment so that we can tell simple stories to kids in sunday school And have it make sense to the adults because it is true to what earth needs then we're getting there But we're at a critical point where we are the ones currently tasked with trying to turn this into something that's usable That's a different task to how do we Currently use the stocks and flows and the capability maturity in this group and it's not elitism It's functional hierarchy Right and nature doesn't do everything with everything Fungi do something different to trees do something different But they mutually respect because they all contribute to a rich ecology And so You know with respect I can see the need for that, but I think there's a separate step which is how do we create The stocks and flows to move yeah, just feeling about really, um challenged and conflicted around around Media and internet and and how our kids are exposed to it, you know by varying degrees Generally just way too much Into of certain types of content Um and information, you know, that's related to what we're talking about I think in terms of you know, big kid stuff, you know Grown-up stuff that stuff that's supposed to be for grown-ups who actually act like grown-ups And it's it's tough. I mean, it's really tough. Um, you know, sort of the the tech gurus Don't let the kids on on the stuff at all and it tells you a lot. I think, um It's not realistic to completely shut them out speaking from my own experience anyway Some people do that successfully or try and fail um, but how to kind of To ratchet filter Mediate the media And allow, you know, give the kids Let let them have their childhood however they can as much as they can because that is so precious and fleeting Yeah, again, I just want to I want to note that we're we're in the design conversation now and And I know jerry you just you just came back. We're we're talking about October 29th. Is that right? So October 29th. We're going to do 7 a.m Pacific time We're going to do a five-hour session. I'm going to at least that's what we're proposing right now I'm going to work up an agenda I need to get you know, this chat transcript To me because there's a lot of the questions in here Um, uh, I'm going to work up an agenda We're going to part of that agenda is going to include a pre-work assignment an individual perspectives assignment where everyone's going to bring something to the meeting and um Their own mental models and then and then we'll go from there. We're going to review that agenda the objectives the Kind of the scope the guiding principles and all that kind of stuff and the process next week So I'll produce that agenda for next week Um For and then the sponsor team is going to get together At that time right after right after our thursday call to review that stuff and then we will get You know, we'll get everything out I think we're we're one of the questions is is who who's going to who's going to be invited to this thing? And who's going to be that initial kind of core group of people to do some of the definition work and then out of the out of that process we will have Bodies of work activities things of that nature other people we might want to engage I didn't think you were going to invite jerry. Uh, man, that's why I'm really worrying now Kidding one one more quick one more quick point. I'm going to have to go short I'm supposed to be cooking dinner about two hours ago. Um, yeah dinner and bathrooms and food and all that stuff, right? Yeah, just letting jerry know jerry. I I shared my screen with the diagram that I shared online to you and and others Recently on on facebook as a bit of a nucleus to build some questions around Judith and I are going to have a conversation about a couple of my diagrams and what might be useful to the group And we'll bring those back in to feed into this process that that's doing with the design for next week Um, so is that the way everybody else understands it? Yeah at the moment Yeah, so we're looking for more kind of specific design questions and we're looking for just nailing our participant list And I'll work the I'll work the process and we have the place and and time Determined so my calendar tells me that october 29th is a thursday and set around is when our normal checking would happen So my assumption was that this would replace the check-in call and anybody would be invited who wanted to attend But it doesn't sound like that No, I think that that's I think one of the things that I I want is it's Yes, anybody who wants to attend I think that's true But I think people need to You know, they need to let us know because we're going to be designing breakout groups and and you know those sorts of things And and the question is do we want to invite some people that? That have attended but maybe haven't intended in a while or do we like how do we want to make sure that we You know bring people there and I'm I'm open to being open I just I think that these processes break down if it's if it's too loose on on some of these things So it should be kind of an rsvp and I think so Specifically ask people who might not otherwise show up Correct and I want and I want people to commit to the full five hours Right and and it's not like you come in at the middle of the process and you leave in the middle of the process And come back I mean it's really these things don't work if you're trying to catch people up or right They just you got to get the whole group into The same design mind and moving forward if you want so we can we can phase this as a workshop And we can make it rsvp and we can say there will be pre-work and we can say Expect, you know, please don't commit unless you can be the whole time and we can invite people who are normally Routinely part of these calls that all sounds great to me Judy. Sorry go ahead Yeah, I was just going to say that I think that's an important dimension of how you manage it because otherwise It gets kind of crazy if people come in To the workshop and haven't been involved in the discussions or the pre-work in an effective way It just becomes dilutive in terms of playing catch up. Yep I don't mean to sound elitist because I really am inclusive and I think People who've been in these calls are pretty great thinkers But it might might explode in size there's a risk of that because the ogm group is pretty big And I think all of the people who read streams are probably pretty interested In where to go with this I think I think saying that it's rsvp giving it a different link from our usual link Uh, et cetera, et cetera will manage the crowd size really easily like like you've got to commit to the time and it's rsvp And it's not the you they can't click on the old calendar link. I think that'll be fine and and anybody else Will meet next week, you know, this is replacing this week's check and call so The question for you Jerry because I think just before you came back It came up. I think Matt made the point that you know sort of questioning What about the diversity? Is there something? What about the diversity When I when I started sending invites out, I was trying to challenge every sort of Person who is not diverse to invite other people who are who are in fact diverse to the meeting That has worked not well Um And I I would just ask that we do that more that we bring that up that we That we do that for the invite trip for the workshop, et cetera But but I I'm that wits end for how to make it happen more There's 50 different sort of carts. I want to be pushing forward and I can't I've discovered Too late in life that it's really hard to push 50 cards forward. So Yep One of them is one of them is making sure that these meetings are far more inclusive Yeah, and maybe we we have to just accept what we what we have and then make that part of you know, the question set Right and that we're wrestling with and and figuring it out, right? And I think Scott's question of how do we measure diversity is it is an interesting question Scott to me to me to me. It's like, um, anybody who's not a white male Adds adds to our diversity like anybody who's not in my demographic Sure Yeah, is I've been challenged recently to think about that in a different way and say Well, does that mean that every white male thinks the same? And and I think we can say there there is the potential for Incredible diversity within physical attributes or demographic Attributes and and that but again, this is not a fully formed thought It's just the idea that what we know of each other are Largely visual And and we're making judgment calls based on that and they agree that having Increased visual diversity can lead to other forms of diversity but And there's a there's a person who's in the ogm list But hasn't showed up for any of the calls who is on the autism spectrum who friended me on twitter Who is phenomenal who's done really really interesting things who will probably never show up to any of our live calls Because he or she basically said I don't handle live really well and i'm thrilled that they're in our conversation um, and would love to know sort of how to do that more and also Our check-in mode of going through every square and every person checks in is a lot of pressure on people who don't like that kind of process So that sort of decreases the diversity of introverts or people who just want to lurk and jump in When it's appropriate, so i'm i'm conscious of those things. I just haven't kind of figured out how to solve them all Neil Neil you need to go feed your family. Yes, I think we all I think we all have to go. This was really really Productive i'm glad we got the extra bonus time. I feel like there's more shape to The future just from this so thank you guys Pete thank you so much for pinging me and saying you were still on the call And forgive me guys for my for my thumb and when I earlier when I put my thumb up and realized it was there I stuck my finger up and realized that was the wrong finger. So if that comes through the recording it wasn't intended All right The chat for yourself Yeah, how do I say the chat? Oh, do I just so the channel automatically save with the recording because you didn't turn off the Recording in between or you didn't be good if he has a copy though If I go save chat. Yes, that'll work. Save chat. Where does it go? It goes into your documents folder. Yeah It shows you documents or downloads. Is it documents or downloads? documents Oh, that's right It goes into your documents. There's a zoom there's an applications. There's a zoom folder. I think Take care everybody. See you. Oh, thank you. All right. Thanks Pete. That was a great tip Bye guys. Please be well. We'll see you next time. I'll be in touch, Judith