 Okay, so now we would have 10 minutes of like broad discussions on which can be on any of the two talk questions or comments of observations, whatever is on your mind. So feel free to ask anything or even just give some views that you might have. I actually have a question, which is related to both the talks and perhaps even probably also next one, but I'll ask it right now. So one one central and sort of Changi already discussed this so one central central input of these of these experiment is the species pool. And my question is, for instance also in the first talk by Martina, which part of the results do you think is independent of the species pool so let's say that you repeat the same experiment with a sample taken from a different environment or you repeat the same experiment with combining multiple sample from multiple environments so creating a much more diverse species pool. So, how much do you think the species pool is important in limiting the diversity you see versus. No, it's basically you are, you're ready have enough diversity and what you see is independent. Yes, that's a good question. I will expect that the effect of species pool is rather minor in this case, because what we look the community that we sort of consider is, is those that assemble in a simple environment, which is Google's environment. So those community that the committee members that pass the first filtered of being able to grow and coexist on Google's then they're ready, we're ready select for some subset of the, of the species from the global species pool. I don't, I think, I think those environments will play more important role in determining the not the richness but also like the structures of the network. It seems that the, the, the coexistence in the pairs could be different if we change the environment. For instance, if you have a very rich environment which allows diverse species to coexist, then I will expect that the environment would also, that's the species to coexist in pairs more often than the species pairs in a simple environment. So I think species pool relative to to the environment is a minor sort of factor in determining the network structure and, and those richness. Maybe I can add something from my side. For example, well, the species pool maybe. Yeah, I kind of agree with Changyu, in the sense that the species pool probably is as a minor factor compared to the environment, although, let's say in the, in the case of having, like, as Leonardo was saying before, big molecules that need to be digested you need microbes for example that digest these, these molecules for example to generate to sustain a community. But the other thing that, for example, if we think about for repeating the experiment with other pools of species. I think that the structure for example with generalist and specialist is something that is quite common across environments. So there are lots of studies that highlight that across communities you can find generalist and specialist, and usually generalists are very few compared to a lot of specialists. So for example this aspect of at least my experiment I think it would be concerned if I change, if I maybe change the pool of species. If he wants to add anything on this, maybe I will have a question for Martina or for whoever wants to say something about it. So in your experiment Martina, like your results to just suggest that cross feeding is the mechanism that supports high diversity. Also, like in another experiment, the one of the group of Alvaro Sanchez from 2018, the same suggests that it's cross feeding that that maintains a high diversity. So can we somehow conclude that cross feeding is the main or however, most common mechanism that supports high diversity, or is it also because the typical laboratory setting excludes other possible mechanisms like special heterogeneity or predation that in other settings could be instead common reasons. Well, I think that it depends so obviously in nature you have all these things playing together special heterogeneity predation warfare. So microbes fight against each other they produce antibiotics so then there are phases that are so to contribute to diversity. So I would say that they, when you think about the natural settings all these, well, and this is the ecologist that speaks so I think that all these, all these processes are can be equally important. Because in the lab you tend to try to isolate, let's say the effect of, let's say you try to quantify the effect of one process so that you can, and you keep constant on the other so that you can try to understand more what's going on with respect to the specific mechanism. And I believe that cross feeding plays an important part and there's still a lot to understand about it for sure. And yeah, so at least in our experiments, it is probably what's going on, although, for example, I'm not filtering for phages so to be fully honest I don't know if there are phages that can do that can change the dynamics. And then maybe I can add the last thing that is about for example environmental parameter variables like pH. So our people, other people in our group are studying variations in pH. And let's say the complex dynamics that can arise from variations in pH and also. And so I think that this is another possible process that could contribute to, for example, change temporal changes in diversity and interesting dynamics. There's a question on the top also from Marco that says, what is the typical variability of taxa found across biological replicates of these experiments using the same resources. Again, for me. So, yeah, there is variability. For sure. So, if so too, so the experiment, I had three replicates for each resource and richness varies the composition that is a bit but more in the species level compared to the family level. And as a result that has been already shown, as you were mentioning in the paper, another paper by the Sanchez lab in 2018, where usually what you see is that family diversity, so there is convergence at the family less at the species level. So quantifying variation. I can tell you that variability among communities supported by different resources is larger than the variability between the replicates of the same resource with other people doing experiments, maybe can add something about the other questions. Is there, kind of, is there a little bit of time I like to follow up to understand Jacob was questioned a little bit more because I think it's an important question and maybe it will reappear later and, and it has a relation to this question of the bias also in the pool, because we generally take the pool as, as given but I think it, it, of course in the experiments it is but I think maybe we can keep that question in the back of our minds and Jacopo, are you asking basically if we increase the pool. Would we just see a proportional increase in the local diversity or is there this continuous sort of an effect that is not, that is not linear and that therefore as we were to increase the pool we will assemble a much richer diversity than expecting. So, yes, so my question was related to how much the size of the pool, this sort of size of diversity of the pool which is a concept which is hard to quantify this is not the first number of taxa, but sort of decide if we could measure ever measure of the diversity of the pool how that would affect the diversity and the composition of the local community. It's not even obvious that the relation should be positive right so let's say that you have like one super strong generalist does, which is the super but does everything perfectly, right, but it's very, very rare. So, for some reason, I have no idea. So, of course, if that is in the pool, then you see like very low diversity while, if that is not in the pool you have some sort of perfect assembly and you see higher diversity. Right. So, I guess, yes, I just gave the example of proportional or something, you know, faster as a more nonlinear as an example, but, but yeah, and I think as we move forward, perhaps I'm thinking about variation of trades. So this is the question of how the forces that structure the local communities, if you were in a meta community context which is where the pool comes from, how does it assemble the size of the pool so I think it's, it's a question to keep in the back of our minds because, because we will see a lot of malls where there is this given pool of variation, but I think it's a very interesting question. But it seems to me that, in some sense, the hope is that there is not a depend, I mean that what, let's say, the, of course, the taxonomic composition depends on the pool but that other properties, let's say the structure of the competitive motifs or the linear structure of these with a number of resources is somehow robust so we, I guess this is the right that is not contingent of what we have in the pool. But I thought the second the second talk was arguing that a lot of what we see in the local experimental results is determined already by the biases in the pool right so. That was a conclusion. Yeah. I think perhaps. Yes, sorry. No, no, I was not saying anything. Yeah, no, I didn't have any other comment. Okay, sorry, is there a time to make a little another little comment here. So, so going back to the first comment that Mercedes made regarding or things that appeared in this discussion regarding the appearance of motifs, due to the assembly. The fact that a motif appears does not necessarily mean that it plays an important role in the coexistence. Namely that it is important in any sense. So, for example, you could have, I can imagine doing this in a simulation I mean an experiment of course it's, it's, it would be harder but you can imagine in a simulation you see in your assembly process, something correlations forming which would be translate into certain motifs being selected for for example, you could take your simulation then and only put that correlation in your community and like, well, does that mean that I see more species that does that affect diversity does that affect a bunch of things. And often you can, and we did this for certain cases, things that you see obvious like these, you know, selection for certain motifs have no effect on, for example the final diversity. So, the fact that something is there and selected for does not mean that it has a functional importance in maintaining coexistence and so on. Okay, these are two different things. Yes, I fully agree that so I, why I think like the advantage of looking at the competitive network because it's, it's measuring the outcome of, of competition right because the links of these networks are outcome of competition. It is not dependent on the what kind of ecological interactions, or what's mechanisms are in play, we were just measuring the result so it's basically it's a model free sort of network could be generated from any kind of mechanisms. I think what I would kind of emphasize of the work is that we, we were lacking like, first, because in other kinds of ecological networks of full webs or materialistic network we were known that there's some multispring like occurring like all the time across different communities. And we've known that some of them have important functions but some of them don't. And I think for this particular type of competitive network, we are, we were having just the first step of trying to know, is there any common community assembly in some way that shows similar motive distribution, then we can now I'm trying to work on is that what kind of meaning of like enrichment or under enrichment of motifs mean in these communities. I think that's, I think it's exciting to, to try to figure out what happens because what I don't have a clear explanation is like why we see transitive motifs. I could it could be in the end that there's no functional meaning for these enrichments, because you could just be a artifact of network sampling. Oh, sorry, the community assembly, or you could have a player rule I don't know. And, and I think one way we can, we can test that is because it's by from the more mechanistic model that we know how micros behave and we can from the we can try to build up how, how the networks could be could be affected, depending on how we, we, we, we model the microbes. I think it's, we were just having the first step of trying to understand what happened for this type of network. Yeah, but these great comments for like trying to do this is entangled the effect of enrichment in the motifs. Thanks. Okay, I think now it's a good moment for our 10 minutes break. So you will be split in breakout rooms where you can continue chatting if you want, and you should also be able to more from one breakout rooms to the other. Find some people you would like to chat with and see you back here in 10 minutes for the next session.