 So, hello everyone, thank you for being with us today. I know there are lots of you there, actually we had more than 1000 registrations and that's why we had to move to the Zoom system. This means that the reasons for which we started this webinar were well-sounded and we needed to respond to an actual need, the need of getting directions on how to move online on such a difficult situation we are experiencing. I wanted to share my screen to show you a very brief introduction and leave the floor to Tony, you are all here to listen to. So, I will share my screen, just a moment. So, this is a joint initiative. The supporting group is made by me, Antonia Lapocha, that's my name. I chair the Network of Academics and Professionals steering committee from Eden. In the supporting group we have been all together working to allow this opportunity for everyone. This is Lisa Marie Blansk, who is representing the fellow council of Eden. She is from the University of Oldenburg and Timothy Reed from the Eden EC Executive Committee, Vice President and Pro Vice Chancellor at UNED. We, as I said, we are trying to meet an actual demand from a large audience. There's a true educational emergency and we will try to learn how to be online together, as our hashtag says. We will be rolling out a series of practical webinars focusing on day-by-day challenges our teachers and educators face today. And we will also try to meet certain broader institutional aspects. The series of webinars we're going to have weekly will have the opportunity to allow experts and experienced practitioners talk. We will be working, we'll try at least to work the same way every time, having a presentation from our expert and then a question and answer session. So from now I ask you to participate, to be active, to write your questions in the chat that you find below and I will pick up some of the questions. Of course there are so many of you so we are not able to pick up all the questions but we'll try to get some questions and discuss them with our presenter. So please be aware of having activated your chat box below. I'm not stealing more time to our presenter. You all know him. You're all eager to listen to him talking. I will be very, very brief in introducing him. You know him. He is author of several books in the field of online and distance learning. He has provided consulting services specializing in training and planning and management of online learning and distance education, working with over 40 organizations in 25 different countries. Tony is based at Contact North but he will tell you more about him. And I really thank him for being with us. We are really honored to have him with us to start to open this series. Don't hesitate in using our hashtag and thank you. I'm really moved that so many people are there and that our community is so large and active today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much from the deep of the crisis here in Italy. Thank you. So the floor is yours. The floor is yours. Tony. I'll stop. Okay. Okay. I took it's okay for Tony. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Hello, everyone. I'm very pleased to be able to speak to so many people. I wish the circumstances for this meeting were better than they are. We're all facing a huge challenge here. And I'm a little unhappy about doing this to be honest, not just because of the circumstances, but this is a new situation for everyone. And I'm not sure I have the knowledge or experience to be able to help those of you who've been thrust or pushed into a situation where suddenly you have to go online and you've never done it before. And I was talking to my son yesterday who is a professor at microbiology in Nottingham University. And he said, I've got to go online. I've never done it before. And I said, oh, how are you feeling about it? He said, oh, it's not a problem. It's just common sense, isn't it? And I said, well, thanks, son. That's 50 years learning and experience just gone down the tube. I did point out to him the common sense is the result of often a thousand years experience, but nevertheless that there are things that we can learn from the past, but there are also things today that you really have to discover for yourselves. So the other reason I'm a little unhappy about doing this is that how you handle this move to online learning depends so much on your context. If you're an institution that has been teaching online for the last 10 to 15 years, it's much less of a challenge than if your institution has never taught online before. So with that background, I'm going to switch to a PowerPoint. So I've called it from panic to peace of mind, transitioning to online learning. What do you do in an emergency? What do you do triage? You can't operate as you would do in a standard hospital setting where everything's planned before you go into an operation and so on. You deal with a situation as it is. And solutions aren't always the best ones, the best possible ones, but they are the best ones in the circumstance. So I'm not going to criticize anybody for what they do in this situation if it's the first time you've been in this situation. I want to concentrate on three things. Media actions for moving online. The medium term. What should we be doing over the next few months to prepare for the fall, the autumn? And then the long term, what should we be doing? Because this is not going to be the only time that your institution will have to face an emergency where everybody has to go online. This could be for any number of reasons. A public health care, a national climate disaster, terrorism on the campus. It could be any number of reasons why the university or the campus must close. And we need to be better prepared than we have been up to now for that situation. So what would I advise anybody who's having to do it for the first time? Talk to the professionals if you have them in your institution. If you have a department or an organization within your institution, that's been teaching online, go and talk to them before you do anything. Because online is different. It's not rocket science as my son pointed out, but it is different and you need to know the differences. It's particularly different for the students. And I'll talk about that in a bit more detail. Now, I know that many of your institutions don't have any professionals. You don't have a department for online learning that deals with online learning. You may not have even a teaching and learning center in your institution. So my advice to you if you don't have anybody to talk to to get advice, think before you start. Go online, research this online. There are lots of good places. Now, I put up a slide here. This is from the University of Illinois. One of the things you've never gone online, you'll learn is that there's a lot of open free resources, open education resources that you can go to online. This is from the University of Illinois is online course in a box. It actually tells you how to design an online course. There's lots of stuff out there that you can go to. Spend a day researching best practices. Avoid the commercial providers. They're trying to sell you something, but there are a lot of public institutions that are open about what they do. So do some research. The first thing when you think about what you're going to do is do I need to change my course? Can I just put my lectures up online? Now, we know from the past that there's lots of problems with just putting particularly one hour or even longer lectures online. First of all, they're too long. They're boring. Also, there's a bandwidth issue here. If you, unless you compress your PowerPoint slides, you can easily overload not only your own institution servers, but the bandwidth that students are using. Remember that everybody's at home these days is using the Internet for all kinds of reasons. If you have kids playing video games, then it's going to be hard to get online to research because it's going to watch a long lecture because the bandwidth, the Wi-Fi bandwidth, you've got just one hand handling. But also it's boring. There's a lot of research on the right length of a video lecture and it's around about 10 minutes. Secondly, there's no interaction if you put your lectures online. If you just put them online without doing something else and I'll come to that in a minute, it's hard for students to ask questions if you haven't prepared for that and you don't want to get swamped with hundreds of questions either. So the other thing is it's basically taking a musical act and trying to just record a video of it rather than making a movie. You're not taking advantage of the affordances of what online can do very well. I'll explain what that is a little bit later. The fourth thing about putting your lectures online is it ignores how students will learn online. We know from research now that most students work in chunks of less than one hour when they're studying online. And when you think about it again, it's common sense as my son would say. They're at home, they've got kids running in and out. Or they're on a bus trying to catch up on their mobile phones and so on. So you need to break up online learning into manageable chunks for the students. And you'll see what happens if you're not careful, you can easily overload the students as the image indicates. So the problem is you need at least a month if you're going to change the way you're going to teach. So I don't criticize anybody who wants to immediately put their lectures online because that's all you can do. But if you've got a month to change and some of you will have because your institutions are closed then spend a bit of time preparing for going online. So if you're going to take your same course and move it online, make sure you choose the appropriate technologies. And again, ask the professionals. We had to switch for this webinar from Adobe Connect to Zoom because suddenly we found we had more participants than we could manage. You need a professional who understands the difference between different videos, conferencing systems and so on to see what will best work in your situation, in your institution. Now, you may have a preference. You may like Zoom over Adobe Connect. But use the technology that your professionals advise because they can support that technology. There's not much difference between them in the long run. The difference is at the back end rather than at the front end. Secondly, if you're going to go on, put your lectures online, make sure you do it within a virtual learning environment or a learning management system like Canvas or Moodle or Blackboard. If your campus is actually already using one. If you're not using one, you've got big problems and I'll give you some advice on that a little bit later. And the third thing is that once you get into that virtual learning environment, make sure you have clear instructions for the students as to what they must do each week. Within the learning management system, provide a weekly structure. By that I mean this is what you do from Sunday through to Saturday this week as a student. This is what you should be doing. This is what you have to do at the end of the week. And here's what you do to prepare for the next week. You can put your recorded lectures up there. I've mentioned the technology behind that. Required reading. If they have readings to do, again, online, there's an enormous amount of free online academic reading and I'll talk a little bit about that later, such as open education resources. In my province, every first and second year course at university and college, there is an open textbook that students can download for free. That's been validated by the professors in the province. You may not find that in your jurisdiction. Again, most of this material is in English, I'm afraid, but you can put a lot of the readings or students can access the readings online if they're directed to it. Other student activities, particularly the discussion forums. Learning management systems have discussion forums which are very, very useful for giving students activities. It was more important in some subject areas than others. And then assignments are also built into the learning management system. And again, don't argue about the learning management system. You might prefer Moodle to Blackboard or vice versa. Use what your institution has got because it's supported and they can teach you and help you if you have problems with it. Watch the student workload. One of the things that tends to happen when people move online is they overload the students with work because you can see how much work you can suddenly put into a virtual learning environment. I recommend about 30 to 40 hours a week for all courses that a student is taking simultaneously at any one time. So if they're taking four or five courses, that means eight to 10 hours a week for one course. And that should include all their activities including assignments, tests and exams. And again, you can see if you're going to have three hour lectures and then work flowing out of that, that can be really a large amount of work and very difficult for students to absorb those big chunks of learning. So reduce or shorten the lectures if you can. Assessment, if you have objective testing, that is test for memorization or comprehension, you can use computer marked assignments. The learning management system allows you to create your own computer marked assignments. But you can also use formative assessment. Grades for online work and activities. Now some instructors like to give grades for students' participation in online discussion forums. I don't like to do that. I like to link the topic of the discussions to assignments and let the students know that there's going to be assignment on this and if they get in and discuss maybe a similar question to the assignment question, not the same question, then that's going to help them do their assignments. But you can assess students as they work through because one of the big differences between face-to-face and online is that you have a recording of what students do in online. So you can actually see better how they're working than you can in a face-to-face group where they just go outside the lecture. They may be talking amongst each other, but you can't track that, whereas you can in online learning. If large classes break them into groups, get them to do group projects and use e-portfolios like Mahara, which allows students to record their work and organize it like a portfolio of work online and they can share that with you so you can see how students are progressing. That's the short term. In the medium term for the fall semester, now who knows whether we'll be back again in the fall, but maybe in October, maybe a little bit later than that, but at some point the students are going to come back into the university, then what are you going to do? Well, what I suggest now, your institution should be immediately hiring more online course designers and web and support people now. They should be doing that now to get them in position to support faculty, especially if campuses aren't back again in the fall. There's several online courses out there on how to teach online. Get your institution to get one of these courses in so faculty can actually spend some hours learning how to teach online through a course which will give them feedback and so on. Create standard online course design templates. There are a number of different design models for online learning. They vary a bit from collaborative learning, experiential learning and so on, but make sure your institution has some off-the-shelf design templates in the learning management system that faculty can go in and try. And make sure your institution has upgraded the technology, such as making sure that the institution has enough bandwidth to handle a lot more online studies, that they have servers or they're moving stuff to the cloud, making sure that their learning management system can handle the bigger numbers or get a learning management system in if you don't have one, and make sure you've got good video recording and streaming technology. So there are a number of things to do between now and say September. The institution should also be developing student policies about expectations, what they're supposed to do when they're not on campus, accessibility issues, how do students who are blind or deaf, how do they manage online? What kind of alternatives should faculty provide for them? And access, what happens if students don't have high-speed internet, for instance? What's the policy there? And an online assessment strategy. If your students can't come to campus to take exams, how are you going to organize that? Again, there's lots of ways of handling this, but you can actually have online proctoring systems. You pay for those, but students can actually be monitored taking an exam from home. For instance, some proctoring systems will indicate when the student goes out of the app for the exam and starts looking at stuff. If that's not allowed, it will automatically flag that and that would be flagged against the student's performance, for instance. So there is stuff out there for online assessment. It's just a question of doing the research and finding it. For instructors, collect feedback on your course, find out what worked and what didn't when you went online this month, and then take that feedback and rethink, adapt and redesign your course for the fall. So that means tracking a little bit what students are doing. How many students completed, et cetera? How many students dropped out? Where did they drop out? Try to get that information on your own course to feed into. Did you get a swamp with emails? Were they all about the same topic? That means you probably didn't teach that topic very well. Can you improve that topic next time round? For the fall semester, for the median term, start looking at a new way of designing that actually fits the online environment. Remember now that nearly all content, everything that you teach is already online and free, at least in English. It may not be in your national language. There's a massive amount of content out there now. Everything, even the latest research papers are often in open publications. So your students can go and get to the latest research. That means you don't have to deliver content. Students can go and find, evaluate, analyze, organize that information. It's already out there. And this is one of the huge shifts in pedagogy that online learning allows. You can, of course, do that in class, but it's much easier for students to do it online. And move towards topic or problem-based learning where you focus on skills development. We're hearing from employers all the time that they need students with skills like critical thinking, problem-solving, communication skills. And by building problem-based work online, getting students to work in groups, learning collaborative learning, for instance, which they need when they get into the workforce, then, again, online learning is a huge opportunity to teach better. Now, what do you do in the long term when you reach a stable state? Your institution should have a digital learning strategy. What proportion of your courses should be either fully online or a mix of online and face-to-face in five years' time? And how do we get there? What should be the right mix for your institution? Should you have all courses blended, or should it just be certain parts of the university it's all blended, but other parts, like maybe in science, where you have to have students come to campus but not necessarily for the whole of the course or the program. They can do some online and some on campus. What is your strategy for that? What's that going to vary between the different academic departments? You should have an overall view of where you're going as an institution. Make sure you've got strong senses for learning technologies or digital learning. I put up one here from the University of Bristol. It's now called the Digital Education Office. Make sure you have the people with the skills and knowledge to support faculty in this area. Plan for instructor training and development. Make sure that the faculty know how to teach online or if they are doing blended learning, what's best on face-to-face and what's best on online. And have an emergency plan in place for remote learning. So if tomorrow suddenly you have to move to remote learning, everybody in the institution knows what to do and is prepared for it. I don't think there's any excuse in the future for institutions not having an emergency plan for remote learning. So in conclusion, we can't go back to where we were. One thing that this crisis is really going to do is to shift the way we think about teaching and learning. We will have exposed people not just to COVID-19, but we will have exposed a lot of faculty and instructors to online learning for the first time. We have to recognize that online learning is now an integral part of higher education. It's going to be a mix of blended learning and fully online. In my view, all institutions will have some blended, will have most of their courses either blended or fully online in the future. And that means our teaching methods need to change. They need to change for a number of reasons, because of the technology, but because we need to move away from content delivery to skills development, because the content is all out there and it's growing faster than anybody can handle. We can't teach all the content in any subject area in that. What we have to teach is knowledge management, how students can handle that expansion of knowledge. We also need to rethink the campus. I've got an image up here of the interactive classrooms at the Queen's University in Ontario. You'll see that the instructor is at a pod. It's a little bit like Star Trek, Captain Kirk in the pod. The students work in groups around a table. Each table has a screen. Students can plug their computers in. And they also have individual corrals where students can go off and do individual work and come back and bring it back to the group and so on. So we need to rethink the campus. If we go into blended learning and maybe reducing face-to-face teaching by as much as 20% to 30%, what kind of campus do we need? And lastly, something like COVID-19 will happen again. And we need to be much better prepared than we've been for this time round. So thank you very much. And I'm going to come out and back. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. There are lots of questions coming from the chat but coming from YouTube too. Because as you know, we have a streaming going on on YouTube trying to allow most of you to participate in our webinar today. So I'll start with the questions because there are so many and I want to give feedback to most of them. So the discussion is very lively. What can we do, they're asking Tony, to activate communication among the students, especially when we have large classes at the moment I know we were, as you explained very clearly we need time to plan for this kind of teaching and learning but at the moment most of us has been forced to go online for one minute to the other. So it's very important to activate communication among students but what would you suggest? Which is the best way? Well immediately, again it depends on the context. If you have a learning management system then break the class into groups. Again it depends on the subject matter that you're teaching. If you're teaching sciences it's more difficult but if you're teaching humanities or social sciences if you've got a class of 120 then break them into say 10 groups of 12. Now you can manage 10 groups, you don't have to manage it actually you post questions for the students to discuss and then you just go in and monitor each one and you don't have to read everything in each one but where you see students either not behaving properly like being rude to other students or completely misunderstanding something then just step in with a comment. The most important thing for online students is called instructor presence. Instructor presence online. They like to know that you're there and paying attention to what they're doing and so if you put students in groups try to make sure that at least once a week every group gets some comments from you. Make sure you have good discussion questions as I said I like to link them to assignments. So put maybe the topics for assignments up at the beginning of the course again backward design think about how you're going to assess the students and then what do the students have to do to match that assessment and so if you know what kind of assignment questions you're going to ask at the beginning of the course you can then set topics that will help students when they come to those assignment questions which the other thing is you have to be very explicit and transparent to the students about what you're doing when you're online. Yeah, of course. Okay, so yeah, absolutely. Another question which I think most of the audience would ask you is related to what is possible when you have low tech and low bandwidth especially in areas where the bandwidth is low. What can we do? Is there something that we can use that we can cope with? You can use email. You can actually do quite a lot with just email alone. You can add attachments to your email for instance although again be careful about the size of the attachments in other words break your lectures up into smaller segments if you're going to send them as attachments to email and again more difficult if you haven't got a learning management system but I wouldn't recommend email for a class of over 50 or 60 but if you've got a class of under 50 or 60 then again you can break them into groups and have them discussed as well through email they can set up their own email links and so on. It's not difficult. I'll give you my website. I have a colleague of mine, Tennis Morgan who's got a very nice article on how to teach using email and other... That's very interesting. I'm very, very useful. Another question is related to motivation. How can we support motivation? You suggested at the beginning that it's advisable to divide the students in groups and make them work in groups but we know that group work sometimes can be annoying for some in the group being lazy or other being more active and true active compared to other ones so what would you suggest to support motivation and participation and sharing of the... I'm going to make a general comment here many of the problems that we think of as being online learning problems are not specific to online learning they're specific to face-to-face teaching as well so motivation is a problem both face-to-face and online. Having said that, what you often find with online students is that their initial reaction is that this is going to be less work and I can just do it when I feel like it and that's why you have to build in structure into your courses with regular weekly activities that students must do. Now this is what I call extrinsic motivation but again this is why having very clear learning activities for students and some form of feedback to them so they know that their activities are being monitored to some extent and they don't have to give a grade for everything but some encouraging comments again if you have a group of 12 students and you encourage one the others will see that and often especially young students, first year students they are not so well organized as students in later years they are more what I call dependent learners more help online than students in third and fourth years so that's interesting Yeah, I don't know what happened I don't know if... That's good, that's good there's lots of chatting there and everyone is trying also to share different resources so that means that we are really building a large community where everyone wants to contribute and participate but more questions, this is a very important question what about students with disabilities? Do you have suggestions for that? Yes, well, there are various things you can do in PowerPoint for instance you can actually record a PowerPoint so students who have visual impairment can listen to what you're doing I can't remember exactly now I'd have to go into PowerPoint to find out how you do that I think you go into slideshow and scroll down and you'll see something about recording voiceover to the PowerPoint slides general rule of thumb is in online learning provided at least two media of communication audio and video if you can and text, so you've got three media really text, audio and video and duplication as much duplication as possible so there are a set of guidelines called for online learning again I'd have to look up the reference for this I hope somebody who's participating can put something into the chat where you can go and get guidelines on designing online learning to deal with disabilities and so on So yes, that's very important because we need to take care of this aspect that sometimes is neglected and instead especially for accessibility, disability online learning can be a great support and help so that is a field that we really need to exploit and support through technology Then there's this great issue and I'm very much concerned about this area that is the area of assessment As far as assessment is concerned which tool can you mention that can be useful to carry out assessment and what about the risk the possibility of cheating This is a huge, huge area I mean it's really something that teachers are very much concerned about because assessment would be especially in this situation We are stuck in my country in particular we are stuck at home we can't move, we can't go out there's police checking you so we can't really reach any other place away from home What can we do if we need to take an assessment session trying to assure the minimum requirements for a proper assessment session This is a huge question It depends on the subject area very different in science than in humanities for instance Let me start again by saying this is not a problem unique to online We have the same problem with face-to-face exams Secondly remember that when students work online you can track what they do So for that reason I've moved more and more to continuous formative assessment rather than one exam at the end of a course A number of advantages of that you can see how a student has progressed from the time they come in to the end of the course You can look at things like now again it depends what your learning objectives are but come back to the idea of skills development If we're really concerned about improving students communication skills as well as the content of the subject then you can assess their communication skills online how they communicate in discussion forums and you can track that So what you normally have is a spreadsheet for students a list of all the students and then a list of all the activities across the top and then I can continuously assess the students throughout the course on their grades and give them a grade at the end based on that rather than an end of course exam and that to me is much more authentic than doing an online exam The other thing is that again it depends some textbooks have some textbooks have an online website where they have assessment questions you could use those Again the problem is you don't know if the student's doing it or their parents probably not their parents in my case but you know so it's the same problems you would have in a face-to-face class though at some point that's why I like the formative assessment and that's why I like project work because there's no point cheating in a project it's your project you're doing it as a student you might get help from other students but that's what you want you want students helping each other but you can track what each student is contributing to the project online because you've got a record So again the quantitative stuff the objective testing is much easier because you've got all that often the learning management system will have a bank of questions you put up a bank of questions you randomize them and the students will take the test it's automated so the objective testing is easy it's when you try to assess students by essays and you suddenly have 100 essays coming in at the end of a course and you don't know whether the students have copied or not all kinds of tools like turn it in that will check but it's not so much the tools there are tools out there it's your assessment strategy that matters if you have a proper strategy that will discourage cheating then that's a much better approach than trying to get a technology that will automatically tell whether they've copied something Again quotations for instance in my case I say to students fine I don't mind you quoting somebody else as long as you put it in quotes that's all you have to do you don't have to cheat just say where you got it from that's all you have to do cheating is laziness so I think there's all kind it's to do with you as a teacher and how you want to assess students more than what tools do I use online So it's a change of perspective that we need a change of cultural attitude I think and this is a change which is needed first of all in our own way of teaching individual way of teaching of course but this is relates also to the organization to the governance management area because assessment especially in countries like Italy is connected to the value of the certificate you gain at the end of your program so what I think and from what you say is clear we need to ask for a change also from this point of view we need to as you said to develop certain skills and to assess certain skills we need a different way of assessing what our objectives and if the objectives change also assessment might must change thank you for that because it was very clear and important I think very relevant other questions coming how can we find the right balance between synchronous and asynchronous teaching and learning what a great question yeah again the way I would approach this is to look at your learning objectives and the student activities required for them to achieve the learning objectives and again it depends on your way of thinking you can do it intuitively or deductively but again I would put the objectives down I would put the activities down against the objectives and then I would look at which of these can I what activities would be best unsynchronously and which asynchronous now I think it's not either or it's a question of as the questioner asked, the balance between that and I don't think there's a right balance can you hear me sorry 50% online or 50% asynchronous, 5% synchronous I don't think there is a balance there when online learning started it was all asynchronous it was through a learning management system it was text based and so on and we learned a lot of the benefits of asynchronous there students can reflect in discussions for instance before they post but also there are skills that you need to have synchronously you need to be able to think on your feet for instance in an argument so again look at the skills you're trying to develop and work out which ones would be best dealt with by using synchronous or asynchronous approaches but tie it to your learning objectives and the skills you're trying to develop I seem to have lost Antonella there you are I don't know what happened but we're back we were going asynchronous yeah we were just trying to explain balance synchronous and asynchronous yeah that's exactly what we were trying to explain so great so the last last question is related to they this idea of trying to find a way to make organization departments principals ministers all the ones in charge of making decisions in your experience what do you think is the best way to to find the right direction and to put in place all the suggestions that you gave us today this is a big question could I have another webinar on that one we would like to okay it has to be at least three levels first of all there has to be leadership here the senior the president or the vice chancellor and the head of teaching and learning in your institution whoever that is has to take an initiative here and say look this is a situation that we mustn't allow to happen again we need a strategy we need a policy set of policies and so on but also it has to come from the bottom because the senior management don't really understand what that means if you're teaching physics or teaching history so pressure has to come from the faculty as well because in the end most unless it's very different in Europe from Canada the universities in Canada are run by the faculty not by the administration in the end the faculty do what they want to do if they can't get what they want they put pressure on the administration so the pressure has to come from the bottom as well as from the top and the critical people here are often what I call the middle management the deans the deans and heads of department who need to get their faculty together say look what have we learnt from this experience of having to go online what do we need from the university to do it better next time so the deans can then take that to the senior management so what's needed is a dialogue a continuing process of discussion between all three levels about what the strategy should be for the institution and not just about the strategy but realistic things like allocation of money if we're going to hire more support staff where's the money going to come from for instance what are we going to give up are we going to give up some of the lecturing for instance to allow more time for faculty and students to go online you know so there are quite critical policy decisions to be made they will vary to some extent between department and department but there has to be a process put in place for having these discussions and that's the role of the senior management to make sure those discussions are taking place listening to each other yeah in fact again a good balance among all these different actors participating in the action it can be it would be very simple even if sometimes it can be difficult but as you said from what we we realize also from today's talk we need resources we need support we need a strong technological support so good technicians supporting the action and so the will from the governments to put resources on that but also a strong will from bottom up from us from every educator from every one of us who could just through email as you mentioned before have anyway a good distance learning approach so I think that we are running out of time I really thank you all for being with us I thank you Tony for his kindness for ability he is really fantastic he accepted our invitation immediately and he is with us supporting us and I really thank you really from the deep of my heart for your availability and for being with us today I thank you all I think this has been a really real planetary event there's a huge demand there's an educational emergency more than the alpha emergency all facing and we need to be there we demonstrated today that there's a large huge community and that this community is getting stronger and stronger we will be with you supporting you from today for several weeks different topics will be developed with different experts as I said we will go through many many aspects of of learning online together so please stay in touch you will get information you will find all the series and the topics published on our website and yes stay strong stay happy stay at home and we will go over this terrible thing that's going on thank you so much to every one of you thank you I really appreciate it thank you so much Tony it was so nice seeing you I hope to see you very soon and thank you to the back room Alistair Alistair thank you for your support and Dora Dora and the secretariat and everyone and there's open badges available it's in the chat yeah open badges available and this is another issue we will talk about in the next meetings next time and all the best