 Bingo! We're back! 4 o'clock rock here on Hawaii, the state of clean energy with Ray Starling and me, hosting Dr. Fritz Rettberg, who is an energy researcher from the University of Technology in Dortmund, Germany, and part of the German Hawaiian Energy Symposium going on today right now at UH Medical School, the Cancer Center in Kakaako. Welcome to the show, Fritz. Thank you so much. I have you here. But let's have a formal introduction, Ray. What can we say about Fritz? Well, Fritz is here representing European interests who are interested in German interests that are interested in doing business here in the place where things are really happening with renewable energy. And so Fritz, as PhD, has been in, and I heard him talk today. He is very, very knowledgeable about what the things are that we need to think about going forward. So I'm very happy. We stole him away. We actually pulled him out of the conference that was going on. And hopefully we'll get back for some drinks later. But we brought him here to chat with us a little bit. Okay, for context, Ray, tell us a little about the conference itself. Well, the conference actually was sponsored by several groups, mostly the German... German American Chamber of Commerce. German American Chamber of Commerce. I have Los Angeles. We talked to him last week. Right. Okay. And also the Blue Planet Foundation was doing the big sponsorship here. And there's several other groups that were involved, including my old group, Hawaii Energy. So we had a number of different speakers from Germany who wanted to talk about what their thoughts were about what we need here now to make things move forward. So this is a technology, energy technology type conference. Is that what it is? Right. Right. So from your side of the pond, as they say, why is this interesting? Why is this conference here in Hawaii interesting to you? Because as far as I understood, you have the highest potentials for renewable energies in the whole world. So when you think about Germany or let's say Europe, as I said at the conference, I learned you have 300 days of sun in the year. We have 300 days of rain in the year. That's at least what I'm feeling. But even Germany has 30% of renewables in the power grid. And so when I think about and imagine what Hawaii could do with this potential, that's a hot spot for renewable energy in the world, in my opinion. Well, in Europe, Germany is a leader. Yeah, we are. Yeah, renewable energy. Why? Why has that happened? Yeah, because we had several years ago, we had a we had the start of a quiet, successful law for for renewable energies that guaranteed citizens, normal people that invested into photovoltaic that they get a guaranteed feed-in tariff that they get subsidies for the investment. And and so we turned the energy system around what was kind of a top-down system in former times went bottom up. And that is why we were successful because the people had money in this new system. And they were getting money out of it for 20 years, maybe in a guaranteed way. And that's what really worked in the end. And that is what what made now at the moment, our utilities, they, they felt the need to act now and to become more innovative. And that was quite successful. Is this driven off climate change or the price of oil? Yeah, both, both of it. So Germany is is a country that yeah, won't be one of the big victims of climate change due to our situation in the world. But but it was climate change. It was. But first of all, it was a change in our society in the early 80 years. The Green Party was was was raising and they they brought some new ideas of sustainability of resource efficiency into our society. And that is now a kind of a common sense. And and each of our political parties now is on this road to more efficiency. And so and so and it was, it was a it was a bottom up approach in Germany. And of course, the need and especially it was Fukushima that that brought us to to to the point to get out of nuclear power. And at the same time we we said it doesn't make any sense to get out of nuclear power and still burn coal and and have this CO2 emission for our for our growth and and our power demand. And so we said we have the technologies and it is a big global market to be, yeah, to be a leader in renewable energy. You even then, even as this evolved, you were thinking of export? Of course, we are, I think I'm not I'm not Angela Merkel. But as I as a private person, I would say the the German economy always thinks about export, especially when when it comes to technologies. And what we what we learned is that that it isn't technology issue to get more resource efficiency and to get more renewables in the power grid worldwide. And as we understand ourselves, we deliver high tech into the world. And that's what we tried with the with the energy turned around in Germany as well. Okay, so here you are in Hawaii. I imagine that German technology German energy technology has also visited other places. Yeah, we're not the only place. And so part of this at least part of it is you want to learn you want to explain you want to share all that but you also want to make money. So what is the business model to come here come to the conference, talk about your technology? What is ultimately the business model? I'm not sure if I'm the right person to answer your question. You know, I'm a researcher. So I'm working at the university. But I think the goal for the for the companies that are with us here, and they want to sell their products. That's that's for sure. I mean, the black boxes, software, no, no, no, they're coming with, let's say storage systems, or they're coming with new kinds of of PV modules. And they're coming with software as well. That's that's for sure. But many of them come out of the of the, let's say, combined heat and power, combined storage electricity, or maybe electric cars and then so on. That's where where they're coming from. We don't even know yet, right? There'll be more inventions. There'll be more devices. There'll be more technology coming soon from Germany. Yeah, it will. But but it will come from from all over the world. So when when I think about what what California, for example, is doing at the moment, they are doing a real technology policy for renewable energy. They made this tender for for for a big amount of storage. And I think it is all about it's not all about money from from from my side of view. It is about sharing experiences. And it is about, yeah, let's say, avoiding mistakes that companies that countries like like Germany did in the last years. And maybe countries that come after us in the in the energy turnaround. It's no need that they do the same mistakes. And they have other opportunities at the moment. For example, in Germany, one of our problems is we bought we bought everywhere there. There are PV plants on the rooftops of the houses in all over all over Germany. But at the same time, we have no storage systems. Because the storage technology wasn't there when we started to to expand our photovoltaics. And now at the moment, I would say if Hawaii and and other countries around are going their way to more photovoltaics and to decentralize energy systems, always think it with storage and not without. So that was a mistake we made. But there was no chance to write that down. That's going to be the final exam. Very important. So you know, I mean, you paint a picture of a very progressive Germany. It's a Germany that cares about climate climate climate change. And for the same reason, you want to do right by, you know, the global transfer of knowledge about the subject for the benefit of humankind, I think that's good. And the question is, how did you get into that? Did you get into energy because of the technology or because of progressive thinking or both? Me personally, yeah, because of the progressive thinking. It is it was a feeling that it is a an issue where where I can do things that really matter. For example, so that's why I'm not with a company. I'm in a research institute. It's a kind of an idealism to do a little bit for for the better world in the future. Oh, my God. Yeah, common good. We love the common good. Yeah, but that's that's research, you know, I don't think that that companies or politicians are thinking that way. It's not their job to think in that way. It should be maybe, but it isn't. Maybe someday. Yeah, maybe someday. So tell us how you spend your day. What kind of researching are you doing? We are, we are researching, for example, on on the technological components of of the smart grid that might be voltage control systems that might be the connection of electricity and IT systems. But we are we are doing a we have a great focus or a big focus on electric mobility for example, that is one of our issues in in Germany that we said mobility mean cars. Yeah, I mean mean means transportation means transportation. And I would say it doesn't make any sense if we are all stuck in traffic in the future with electric cars, you know, it is about a new kind of mobility that that we have to think about. And it doesn't make any sense that we that we use the same energy for three kilometers and 3000 kilometers. And so it's about this intermodal concept. For example, for for cities, do we have bikes connected with with car sharing and electric cars and trains and buses and so on. And the the combination of all this with alternative engines. That's the our question for for the future. This is what you think about. I envy you. Yeah, that's not your job. Yeah, I have I always say I've maybe besides you, I have the best job in the world. So what did you talk about in the in the program today? It was it was a quiet, quite specific topic. It was about future distribution grids, or more or less about the experiences we made in Germany with the energy turnaround. So the historic German experiences. Yeah, yeah, it was on the German experience. And it was about the question. But but we didn't came to an answer. In which way, for example, Hawaii and other regions in the world are planning their expansion of photovoltaics, if they plan it in a way that they say we want to have it everywhere, we can have it or is it the way that they say, we want to have it where it makes sense. And that's a difference. Yeah, you know, and the question is, what do you do in your urban areas like like downtown Honolulu? And what do you do in your in your rural areas in the north? Will there be, let's say, yeah, islands, energy islands in on the island, and or will there be a connected grid or on grid, off grid solutions? That was what we're talking about. So during the day, did it ever occur to you to move here and stay here and be with us? Yeah, why not? Ray, how did he do? How did Fritz do it? He did very well, actually. And I was hopeful, continuing to ask some questions that he didn't get to. Yeah, we're going to do that right after this break. Good. We'll take a short break. It's Fritz Redberg, a PhD that's a doctor at the University of Technology Dortmund, Germany. And he's here on the German Hawaiian energy symposium, telling us the German experience, which we need to know about in any global evaluation of energy. Hello, this is Martin Despeng. I want to get you get excited about my new show, which is humane architecture for Hawaii and beyond. We're going to broadcast on Tuesdays, 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii. Looking to energize your Friday afternoon, tune in to stand the energy man at 12 noon. Aloha Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm Ethan Allen, host of likeable science here on Think Tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m., you'll have a chance to come and listen and learn from scientists around the world. Scientists who talk about their work in meaningful, easy to understand ways. They'll come to appreciate science as a wonderful way of thinking, way of knowing about the world. You'll learn interesting facts, interesting ideas. You'll be stimulated to think more. Please come join us every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii for likeable science with me, your host Ethan Allen. We're back. We're live. We're here with Fritz Redberg, an idealist, also a technological researcher in energy and the University of Technology, Dortmunder. And there were things that we didn't quite explore, Ray, about exactly what Fritz said today in his remarks. You want to cover that? Well, I wanted to take what you did say and move it forward a little bit and get you to tell us what you think the best kind of what what could Hawaii use if it went out and got the best of everything out there that you were talking about storage and renewables and so forth. Who's doing it right? Who should we look to besides Germany, of course, in terms of what we need to do here? That's that's a very good and a very, let's say, comprehensive question. So yeah, Germany is is doing, let's say, on the on the large scale grid where we are connected with the European grid and we are compared to Hawaii, a quite big country, not compared to the US, but compared to Hawaii. So I think what you can learn from Germany is the use of several technology within one, let's say, holistic system. But I think you have to look to two areas in the world that are more like an island. So, for example, Singapore or whatever, they are doing really, really cool things in their urban areas when when it comes to use of ICT and use of flexibilities in the city. But I think it's no need to have to have it all at once. So start with the right things. So and the question is what are the right things. So and I think the first one I would do, but that's that's my my opinion, when I would live on a spot on Earth that has 300 days of sun, I would build photovoltaics. To be honest, if you have 300 days, why not do it with this photovoltaics? Buy some some storage and then the question is, will there be, let's say, bigger storage or will there be many, many decentralized storage in each of the houses? But what's your answer? I think it depends on what you are talking about. When when you're talking about downtown, I think you should have some bigger storage connected to the to the power grid and at the substations, for example, to use it in a in a grid-confuser way. When when we talk about smaller communities, maybe in the north or off grid solutions, then it is about really decentralized systems. That means a photovoltaic with their own storage, which fits together and which enables, let's say, a house or a smaller community to be, yeah, to to suffer from their own energy. So that's it. So what comes to mind is the dark side. You know, you're very idealistic, so are we. But I would like to discuss with you where barriers are. Where where are the problems that hold us back from, you know, a glorious future? And I'm asking you to see this globally. What's stopping us? Several interests of several big players in the world, but that's nothing new. So one one example might be again electric mobility or electric cars. The the conventional automotive industry wasn't able to build really good electric cars for the last decades. They should have been able and if they have, if there was a will, they would have been able to do it. But they didn't. And so someone like Tesla came and they built a car and they made it disruptive technology and they said to all the older guys in the automotive, see what happens when we are doing it. And I think it's the same situation worldwide in the power grid. There are all paths of technology and of money and they are really really big investments. You may not underestimate that when you invest into a power grid, you are talking about times of 50 years, 70 years for your return on investment. And that's one one of the points. So they all see their business model are crushed and yeah, what should they do? But I think more and more smaller companies are common and they are, let's say, hunting the big ones a bit and that's a good point. But this is what the problem worldwide is. There are the big grids and there are the big utilities and they have all their business models and that's good. They should have it and they have to learn now that they have to bring their organizations into a new world and into a new kind of business and that's not easy for such big companies. So I think we should, yeah, it will happen. How would you suggest that we go about pushing that effort here? Yeah, it is a kind of a political question. I think when people decide and when politicians decide that they want to give incentives for example for the people that invest into innovative components or invest into renewable energies, that would be the first step. The second step could be what we just discussed today to yeah, increase the prices. So to make it more expensive in a political process. And so I said, I went to a store here and I saw a price tag for cigarettes and it was about 13 dollars. So it works. If you don't want the people to smoke, make the cigarettes expensive. So and if you don't want the people to use conventional energy and kilowatt hours that have big emissions, then make it expensive. Should work. But talking about that, Fritz, you know, the basic rule, we talk about this all the time, the basic rule is if you're going to move in a transformation to new and relatively speaking expensive technology, you have to replace the infrastructure. Well, we live in a world of aging infrastructure really everywhere. I'm sure in Germany too. Absolutely. And people, they built a bridge years ago and they go down the decades thinking, well, the bridge is okay, it's still standing. We're not going to put any more money into that bridge, but the bridge is getting old and you need new bridges and people are really shocked to find they're going to have to re-maintain the bridge, replace the bridge. Okay, so we are really unhappy with all the cost that's coming down the pike on infrastructure. This is one of those costs and when you lump them all together, infrastructure plus energy, it's really expensive and people are sensitive on that and they call for cheap. In Hawaii, they call for cheap. Yeah, in Germany. How are we going to fund this? Because at the end of the day it becomes an economic hyphen, political, you know, resistance point and people don't want to spend more and they don't fully understand, I think, that in order to go the distance to transform to clean energy, you have to pay. Yeah, you will have to pay, but you will have to pay, let's say again in the idealistic way, for a better future. It's like an insurance. You have insurances without knowing if you really need it in your life, but you're paying for it because you're paying for a secure future and it's the same with renewable energies. We have to learn that we have to quantify the things that are only quality measures at the moment. What is better air worth in the future? What is it worth that the oceans do not rise up? So I don't know. I have no number for it, but we have to think about it. It is huge. It's life and death. It is huge and it will be huge than building new greener infrastructures and power systems. So to build the electricity or energy future will be cheaper in the end than to deal with all the threats that will come through climate change. I'm quite sure about that. But people understand that. Yeah, we have to make that. I hope Donald Trump makes people understand that. Not optimistic about it. So Ray, can you summarize and sort of wrap around this, the program and Fritz and the kinds of things you've been talking about? Well, obviously we're trying to pull together everything that we've learned in one day here and actually we need a week or two. But what Fritz and his colleagues who came to talk to us today about what we're trying to do is give us their best ideas about what they see that Hawaii could use. And I'm wondering in the back of my head if you're available for sabbaticals to become insurers. One of the things we have here on the island is we have too much of just the guys that we've always seen and having somebody come in and open up and tell us, hey, we tried that and that didn't work. It's a reality. We tried that and it did work. So maybe we can find a way to get you to come and spend some time at UH every time. Every time you want me to have it, I would be here. I promise. We'll have to do something like that because it's been really good hearing you and the others talk about what's out there. Then we have a thought about. Let me say that it's great to have you here. It's great to have the connection with Germany. It's great to be able to look at it from two distant points like that, compare notes, reality test, this we're doing good, this we're not doing good, and to learn from you. And we really appreciate you coming around and sharing. We greatly appreciate your progressive and idealist way of looking at it. And thanks so much for coming on our show, friends. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you so much. As they say, aloha. Aloha.