 Charlene is a saltwater woman with family ties to Dharug, Awabakal, Garagul and the Wuradri Nations. Charlene is president of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Postgraduate Association and an executive member and board member of the Council of Australian Postgraduate Association. Charlene is a full-time academic at the University of Queensland Business School She's a senior lecturer in Employment Relations and Associate Director of PRMB Indigenous. As an Aboriginal activist, student leader and unionist, Charlene is passionate about improving the standard of education, the inclusivity and access at universities for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students from those equity groups. I'll hand over to Charlene now to introduce her panel members. Take it away, Charlene. Thanks very much, Charlene. Hi, everybody. I'm just going to start off by just doing a little bit of an overview and then I'll start introducing the panellists and we'll go to the questions. So I wanted to talk about the importance of student engagement around equity, diversity and inclusion. So how important is student engagement in your university? If you believe it's important, it's a challenge to increase the level of participation and encourage greater sense of agency in universities and in the learning process. While evidence-based pedagogies provide strategies to promote engagement, increasingly attention is being drawn to under-examine structural barriers that discourage and impede for participation. Research tells us that student engagement is critical to academic success. Increasingly, the educational community is beginning to understand the barriers to participation. Some of these barriers are clearly part of an economic system, such as the cost of academic degrees, while others are clearly part of the academic system, such as the gatekeeper, who controls who can enter disciplines careers, particularly STEM. Other barriers, however, are not so easily identified but are nonetheless deeply embedded in the structures of our institutions and society, making them challenging to tackle. We're beginning to realise that while we might provide opportunities for students to become more engaged in the process of learning, we still have a long way to go to make our universities more inclusive and equitable. How diverse, integrated and fair are our universities for students from backgrounds such as First Nations students, LGBTIQA Plus students, female identifying students, students from low SES backgrounds, mature age students and rural and remote students? So this session focuses on this topic and weighs forward in an effort to provide practical suggestions to help universities integrate EDI. The panel discussion will build a shared understanding of these issues. So I'd like to welcome our student panelist, who will each explore the notion of inclusivity in Australian university education systems. So Tracy Henshaw is a 56-year-old, a wobbacle gay-wobble elder living on a wobbacle land in Newcastle. Tracy is a proud mum of two and a grandmother of two beautiful jarjums who live in Queensland. Tracy is currently studying a combined bachelor's degree of Global Indigenous Studies and Bachelor of Law Honours. Once graduated, she hopes to be a human rights lawyer for First Nations peoples. Tracy presently runs a non-pro-profit organisation which she founded, named Justice Aunty's Incorporated, which helps First Nations peoples with social justice and legal issues. Most people call her Aunt Trace. Taylor Gray is a proud graduate woman and lawyer and is the first person to undertake a PhD, sorry, first Aboriginal person to undertake a PhD at the University of Newcastle in the School of Law and Justice. Taylor holds a Bachelor of Aboriginal Professional Practice and Bachelor of Laws and Diploma of Legal Studies from the University of Newcastle. Taylor's passion for justice, respect and change for First Nations students and communities has always been at the forefront of everything she does. Taylor organised and led the 2020 Black Lives Matter event in Newcastle, New South Wales, championing the importance of community voice. She testified to the Supreme Court of New South Wales to get justice for the march to go ahead during the pandemic, successfully depeding emotion by the New South Wales Police Department. Taylor Gray is a proud Garregal man and a parent to children with special needs and an advocate for transgender rights who lives with an invisible disability, is currently undertaking and about to finish his degree in social work majoring in criminology. Luca has already achieved a diploma of community services. He has spoken at several conferences on gender diversity and at the Sydney Mardi Gras where he told his trans story. Luca supports and mentors transgender youth including through schools and families to assist transgender youth along the journey they face and to help them along the way. Luca was part of community consultation with ACON which resulted in a trans hub and the blueprint to improve health and wellbeing for trans and gender diverse communities in New South Wales. He also advocates for children with autism. Luca has faced many equity issues throughout his degree and within the community such as discrimination, inappropriate and non-inclusive language, social isolation and lack of support. He feels his experiences will help today in the understanding of equity and inequity within the environments he has endured. Our last student is Sapphire Dawson who is a UN Naga woman from New South Wales. She's a senior legal officer at the Department of Regional New South Wales. Sapphire is currently studying a Masters of Business Administration in the social impact at the University of New South Wales. She graduated from ANU Law School with a Masters of Laws and has a diploma in Family History from the University of Tasmania and a double degree in Business and Law from the University of Newcastle. Sapphire is also a mum to two beautiful children. Please welcome our incredible panellists. So I have some questions and I'm just going to direct them to certain people in the first instance and then I'm going to open up for other speakers to add. So my first question is directed to Luca. How can we make universities more accessible, especially for people with disabilities including hidden disabilities and for people with caring responsibilities of those with disabilities or hidden disabilities? Thanks Luca. No drama. That's a tough one I think. I think for me I wrote some dot points on what I think can help like celebrating things as the National Carers Week. Can we have a National Carers Day at Unis that acknowledges that carers are there, they've got so many different things they're dealing with and even being there. Like me as a carer I have OT appointments, speech therapy appointments, days when my child will be coping in one minute I've got to go pick him up the next. Even getting to uni is an achievement. So I think flexible education arrangements are definitely important. Financial support with scholarships it is financially difficult to especially when you're paying $240 a pediatrician appointment not paid by Medicare. To even get to uni to pay for parking is a big one for me. I sometimes don't go simply because of that issue. A social network at uni, social groups that are inclusive that aren't gendered, not mums groups, not dads groups, carers groups that do both genders are extremely important. The consideration to maybe allocate a support worker, liaison officer for carers, their needs are very different to others. Also including kinship carers, it's important kinship carers are just as important. I'm a parent myself, so my children, my biological children. But at any moment I could take on cousins, you know, nephews, nieces, whatever in a kinship carer, acknowledge that, acknowledge how important they are. Acknowledging that in the wider uni, not just in policy, in groups, in everything, just acknowledge them. And to formally recognise carers in policy I think is the most important thing. Make us feel like we are just as important as everyone else. I understand everyone else has issues but for me as a carer, I need flexibility. That's a big thing. We just had to achieve, raps are extremely important. I've had a rap myself, it's helped me a lot. But I think more formal acknowledgement in social networks in policy is extremely important. And what about on a personal level, as you as a person with a hidden disability? That complicates it even more I think than me because I've got these issues around my children. But me myself, I have complex PTSD so I can be sitting in a classroom completely fine. And you could, even the smell of a deodorant someone else is wearing, I have to leave the room. It's not, I can't help that. So I think even there's another big issue, flexible attendance is great. Being able to leave that room, not making a big deal of it too but also check-ins. Another thing I'm finding lacking for me as a person with a disability and as a carer, no check-ins. No one checks in with me, no one makes sure I'm doing okay. I've had instances where I have been in tears and not one person has asked if I'm okay. And I'm clearly sitting there in tears. I think we need to acknowledge that people need help. And I think more regular check-ins, more support. Like this liaison officer that checks in with these people would be great. Thanks. I'm going to throw to Tracey because I know Trace lives with a disability. And I'm sure that she can add to this comment. You're on mute. That made you all happy that I was muted. Hi everyone. Okay, so I absolutely agree with everything Luca said. Accessibility is key for us, I feel. So I would like to ask all students and staff to consider, you know, not using the disabled toilets or the disability lifts or the disability parking spaces. They're allocated for a reason and they have signage for that reason. It might be quicker or easier for an abled body peeps to just pop in there because it's the nearest toilet or the nearest parking spot. But there's so many others that they can use. However, that one spot at uni that's signed with a disability sign or a disability lift is there for a reason. It's because we can't get to other ones. We can't get into there. So accessibility for us is crucial. I know in one of the buildings at my uni, there's six lifts, three on each side. And one is allocated to disability and that goes right down to the ground floor. There's not once in three years that I've been there that I haven't sat there waiting for the disability lift and abled body persons come out. So I've had to wait. At times it's cost me late to lectures. You know what, I'm already under the pump having to do X amount of extra things to get to my lecture. That's just one up one. As far as people caring responsibilities for those with disabilities or hidden disabilities, at times it's natural for people to just stare at a person. So if you see a student with a plus one, whether it be an assistance animal at uni or they've had to bring their child with them that they care for or their parent, have a little bit of empathy for that student because it is at times embarrassing for us to have to do that. We're not comfortable with doing that and it's so much harder to be a uni student in a lecture. So if you see one person in that situation struggling with their books or their assistance dog walking with a framework, ask them do they need a hand. They'll politely say I'm good thanks or whatever but you've just made their day by showing them that you care. That's all I'd have to say. And Luca wanted to add something. So thank you for that Tracy. You just reminded me. Another thing you too is I have children so sometimes I have to bring them to lecture. I think the teachers, sometimes I've been told you can't bring your child in here, leave them outside. That for a child with autism, you can't leave them outside. They're not going to cope with that. I've had to actually take my daughter to uni and put her outside the door, sit near the door so she can see me and constantly check. I think reminding teachers that if a person, like me, is bringing their child to school, she needs to sit next to me. She's not going to disrupt anyone. But having that accessibility to be able to bring your child would have to leave outside of a room. That is not acceptable. No, that's a really good point. And I think that university policies need to actually reflect that we do have, you know, caring responsibilities. They're caring responsibilities very. And we really need to have that accessibility. And we have to have our children with us if that's needed. And myself being a mum of a son with ADHD, ODD and DAS Burgers, it was very difficult as an undergraduate to try and, you know, not have them there with me at all times. But also, you know, some lecturers didn't really understand. Fortunately, some did though. So, yeah. Taylor and Sapphire, do you have anything that you would like to say on this point? Yeah, I'll just quickly add. That's really unfortunate, Luca, to hear that's happened. Because in my last year of law school, I actually had my youngest daughter, Amari, and I took her to every single one of my classes. A little baby just chilling on the ground. It's obviously very different because, you know, she slept most of the time. But everyone was in awe of her. So it's really disappointing to hear that you weren't supported in that regard. Right. So we might go on to the second question, and I'm directing that at Sapphire. When you think about access and inclusivity in universities, what does this mean for you? So I'm obviously going to preface this, but this is from my opinion. So First Nations person, a parent, someone who's come from a low SES background and who now actually lives in a regional area, having moved from the city. So when I think about access, and I'm going to split this into access and inclusion and then kind of tie it up all at the end. When I think about access going back to what Lucas just said, you know, having access when you've got children is really major important thing. But also it's the pre-access before you actually become a student. So I think that universities need to really come up with some good engagement strategies, particularly with regional and remote communities, particularly with First Nations children, but anyone from a diverse background to explain the university options. So what options do kids from regional and remote areas have near them? Do they have to move? Do they have flexibility? Enabling programs. So for example, if you don't get an ATAR or you didn't get an ATAR, that's high enough. I'm one of those people. My ATAR was only 62.8. I couldn't get into anything. I'm really fortunate to actually have met Charlene, who introduced me to the year public program at University of Newcastle, which was the enabling program that I used to get into my law degree. So do people actually know that those things exist at different universities? So what courses are actually available? So what can they study? So for example, here in Dubbo, and I always forget what the university is, Charles Sturt maybe only does three. I think it's teaching, nursing, and something else that's health related. And they also have a joint program with I think UNSW to do the second last two years of your medicine degree. So there's not much available here. And your only options are to go to maybe Brisbane, somewhere else in Queensland, Griffith, Newcastle, or Sydney. So what options are available and where? And what are the flexibilities to go? Again, going back to Luca's comment about flexibility. So is it wholly online? Can I do some of it online? Is there residential schools? Like what are my actual options as a student if I were to come to any particular university and study a particular degree? And then again, reiterating what Luca has said, what are the support networks? So what actually is available? Is there mentoring? Is there indigenous units? Are there leadership programs? Are there peer support networks that I can jump into? Is there early entry, for example? And then once you're actually in, so once you're in the door and you're a student and you've enrolled, what are the other support services that you can actually get? So housing, finance, scholarships, mental health support being a really major issue at the moment. And then going and thinking about inclusion, it's not be what you cannot see. I have a friend, her name is Carla Mortis. That's one of her major things that she pushes and she's an academic at AMU at the moment. And that's always resonated with me being the first in my family to actually finish university because I didn't see anybody else like me doing a law degree. Like it's good that Taylor, for example, is doing a PhD because you can see her doing it. So you're like, oh, that can resonate with me. I could do a PhD too. So it's getting in and making sure that you're inclusive with all of those support networks for everybody, but also making sure that you're showing people that this is something that they can aspire to. So I think universities really need to come to the table and actually show me or show anyone that they're aiming to get into university, that they actually belong and they have a right to be in the academy so that we have a right to be here as diverse, mature age, indigenous, first nations as any kind of student that we have a right and we belong. But they need to show us how we actually belong. And I think that universities on the coast do this really well. University of Newcastle, UNSW can see people on billboards or on the buses the bus drives by. But you don't see that same advertising on buses and success stories in, say, Dubbo, for example. So if I was a kid who had just grown up in Dubbo, I would assume that my only options are teaching, nursing, or physiotherapy because I'm like, well, there's only Charles Sturt University here. And I think that's somewhere we really need to pick up our game as universities because that's a real problem. And I'm only seeing that now having moved to Dubbo from the city where I saw it all the time. So I can't, if I was a student and just thinking about my kids, they're not really seeing what their options are. They're just fortunate enough that they've had a parent who's actually gone through universities and can be like, oh, this is what this university offers, this university offers. This one has these types of support mechanisms. And I think in case all of that, it's really all mostly about recruitment and retention. So we can get everybody in the door, but then it's actually retaining them. So making sure that they are supported and that they feel like they belong. And so they don't feel like they have to go home. And that can be done with flexibility options. So having wholly online classes for certain subjects so flexibility of being allowed to bring your child to the university lectures or in your shoots or whatever it is. And to back all that up is also digital literacy. So you can't have this online flexibility options if people aren't aware of digital literacy and understanding how that actually fits into the entire thing. And again, that just goes back to access and inclusion, making sure that everyone feels welcome, making sure that everyone feels like they belong. And making sure that they know they have a right to be here. Yeah, some really great points there. And I just wanted to point out while I thought about it, that all of our student panellists have come through the APUG program. So I have a bit of an affiliation with all. I'm going to throw it at Taylor because I know growing up in Dubbo, you would have experienced some lot of issues that Sapphire was just talking about. Yeah, definitely. Because I grew up in Dubbo, went all the way to year 12. And same as Sapphire, I had a low ATAR. I mean, my ATAR was so low, I didn't even get a school. And nevertheless, I still applied for university and I got knocked back every time. But thank God for UON and meeting you, Aunty Charlene, and the APUG pathways program. That was the really, that's what really got me into law school after all. But, you know, we didn't have access to Wi-Fi at home. But there's a, yeah, Dubbo is a really secluded place with limited options. I know, as Sapphire mentioned, there's no law school there. You can do law. You have to move off country to, you know, want to take the degree that you wanted. But yeah, really secluded back home. Great. Does anybody else want to just chime into that question? I might quickly. Also, I was going on with Sapphire, there's the knowledge of enabling programs. Could we extend that to job providers and those who haven't finished year 12? Like, they don't have an ATAR, they haven't finished year 12. Like, maybe extend that to, you know, they're going to, I don't know what the job providers are these days, but break through employment. Could we extend those degrees and tell them about them, because kids know they're there, even for those that have only done, oh, they might not have even finished year 10. We could put them through your park or whatever. So they know that even though they haven't finished their schooling, they've still got an option. That was one thing I had. The other one was, is you were talking about diversity and bus signs of people on them. I think also important is to show diversity of those people and diversity of degrees. Like, med students, law students, social science students that they don't have to go down one path. It's any path. Yeah. So I think that, you know, I'm just looking at the chat as people are talking and, you know, I think it's really important. Like, pathways programs like your pug, they're a few and far between in universities. How do we actually, you know, get that information out there that they're available? I know I accidentally interviewed with Sapphire with my PhD, so she got to know. Taylor came through our Turnit entry program and then we got her into your pug. I'm related to Luca, so, you know, got him into your pug. So, you know, that was a lot of word of mouth, though. So how do we actually, you know, get the word out to job agencies or anything to say, you know, these programs are available for people who don't have ATAS, especially for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who, you know, traditionally, you know, we just get told that we're too dumb and don't worry about university. So, yeah, what do we need to do? What do universities need to do? I think they need to advertise because, you know, like Taylor, Luca and Sapphire, like, I never finished year 12. I finished at 15 in 1980 and hadn't been back to school since. So it had been nearly 40 years in between me going to school. So, and I owe Charlene as well being able to get into the your pug program. If it hadn't been for Charlene getting me in there and literally keeping me in there, I don't... You know, I probably wouldn't be in law school now. I know Charlene was, you know, was instrumental in bridging the gap between an enabling program like your pug and having an early entry from your pug going straight into law school. And I'm here to... The first one, she did that, you know, for the early entry directly going in. So, you know, I don't know where I've gone. Oh, there I am. Yeah, so it's, you know, they're really, really significant. And how do I have not been at NAIDOC Week one year and the Wollichuka tent being at NAIDOC and me asking, you know, is that a safe place for me to learn where there's less racism? You know, I wouldn't be at university now. I think advertising Word of Mouth, certainly all of us students that have been through and graduated your pug, spreading the word and speaking, you know, I think they're all significant things. But it shouldn't just come down to Word of Mouth. I think universities should start being... And I know that we're very fortunate to have you, Wollichuka and your pug. But I think it's up to universities to say, hey, black fellas, you can come learn here, you know, because we've got this safe program for you. So I really feel the universities need to step up and promote, you know, those programs. It's OK to say we've got open foundation courses, but they really need to say we've got an identified pathway for Indigenous students who are supported, not just educationally, but physically, mentally, you know, and just given that support that they need to get through. I think that one of the things that I keep being asked to be involved in, particularly in the community that I did Year 12 in in SESNOC, is to come back and talk at various Year 12 careers days. Like, I've been asked to do that about four times so far. But the first thing I tell them, like, I didn't get a high enough ATAR, and they're like, oh, how do you have all of these degrees? So it's like even getting involved in those programs, I think universities need to take a more proactive approach and attend those careers programs, because I remember going to them when I was in Year 11 and 12 and not once was I told about anything that basically, if I didn't get the ATAR, I wasn't getting in and ergo my life was over, which is completely wrong. But people don't know that. So I think getting involved in those career days, as long as the, as well as the advertising. But I'm doing that off my own back, and that's just people who know me, who are asking me to come back because they have students who are interested in doing law or they're interested in doing business, or they know that I've attended a specific university. So they're like, oh, can you just come and have a quick chat? And I'm always happy to help. Yeah. I remember doing a Careers Expo in Dubbo, and it was not long after Taylor had graduated, you pug, and gone into law, and we had put Taylor's picture on a big banner and set it up in Careers Expo in Dubbo, and had so many young ones come up to me and say, oh, my goodness, that's Taylor. If she can do it, I can do it. So, I mean, that's great stories. You know, you need those kind of successes. We need to be out there saying, you know, I mean, I'm first in family. I went to university. I'm still the only person in my family to go to university, but we can actually do it, you know, and we can make a real difference because I think, you know, we can show that education is the key to self-determination for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. So, all absolutely great, great import. So, my next question is to Taylor. What is the biggest obstacle that you have faced in your university journey and how could universities improve things so this would be less of an obstacle for others? That's a great question. I like what Sapphire said before. You can't be what you can't see, but I was very fortunate enough to see an Aboriginal woman go through law school and complete it. That was Sapphire, and I've been so privileged to see another Aboriginal woman go through and complete her PhD, and that was Annie Charlene. I consider myself very fortunate. Of course, one of the biggest obstacles is, you know, the ongoing socioeconomic disadvantage and health problems. I mean, First Nations people are the poorest and the sickest people in our own country, and of course I would have to highlight that, but for me personally, you know, as I'm going on along in my higher education journey, for me it's First Nation voices and inclusion, like within such a colonial structure. I mean, you know, First Nations people were scientists, were negotiators, were lawmakers. I remember I sat in a class alternative dispute resolution, and my professor, the first thing she said was, First Nation Australians were supreme negotiators, and then she quickly skipped to the next slide, and I'm like, I want to know more about this and how we can actually incorporate this into, you know, this whole Western system. And of course, we're doctors, we have medicine men, we have social workers, we are economists, First Nations people are. We are able to voice, you know, our voices in every area, and I think we should be given the benefit to do that. And then you ask, like, how can universities improve this? So it'd be a less obstacle for First Nations people. Well, I think we need to incorporate a broader curriculum that centres our voices. You know, there is always a way to attribute lectures to us. We are a people of over 100,000 years of existence. Our old people are experts in majority of these fields. And there's two ways universities can do this. Number one, we can add First Nations scholars and voices to compulsive readings every single week we can do that. And of course, employing more First Nations scholars in the universities. Of course, in leadership roles as well, that is. I think that you've really hit on a point there, you know, ensuring that we have lots more First Nations voices in universities. Especially, you know, in our leadership roles, but also, you know, teaching our courses in every single faculty, in every single school, without everything in every single university. And I think that, you know, too often, there's people like us who, you know, go on, we get PhDs, but then we're kind of siloed and don't get the ability to. One of the big things that I think that we really need to push universities is now that we're in there and we are, you know, doing these amazing things, how are we going to change the system? You know, we work within these colonial structures that are so rigid. And, you know, I met, Tracy mentioned before, you know, racism within the universities is really, really difficult to cope. We have racism, we have lateral violence. So how do we actually change those systems? Because it's up to us. We can't rely on whitefellas to do this for us. How do we change those systems to ensure that, you know, our future generations have a better go of it than what we did and have an easier path to universities than we did? Charlene, I think it's really, really hard, because, you know, when I got to law school, of course, Sapphire was the first one to go through from your park and graduate law school. And then I got, when I, Sapphire had already finished when I got there and Taylor had a year there, two years there before, you know, she graduated and, you know, last year we had one Indigenous person graduating at UON. So the problem is, especially in our situation at law school, now we use law school, we've had one Indigenous student graduate each year since Sapphire. One person can't make change. And as I remember getting there and the arrogance that I had to say to these students that had baffled and got through before me was, what the hell have you not been doing here? Like, why haven't you been taking all this crap on? You know, three years in and by Jesus I go there and sit quietly and finish my degree and go home because it's not safe to speak up. The minute you speak up as an Indigenous student and say, hey, hang on a minute, this isn't right or, you know, like my biggest thing is take constitutional law for an example. A lot of the case studies used in constitutional law, especially for Section 51, is based on blackfellas that have taken on the Commonwealth or the Commonwealth used them to take on an honest chain. You know, we don't even get a warning or a heads up that that's the case we're going to be dealing with and it sets off trauma in our set, you know. And when I remember, only this year, when they, and I think I mentioned this last time I was on the panel, when they brought up the 1967 referendum and there was a 20-year-old student in the room calling my people, them and they and they weren't intelligent enough and they didn't fight back enough and I was like, excuse me, hello. I was born before 1967. Don't you dare sit there and call me them and they. So I feel that it's up to the lecture be aware that there's Indigenous students in the room. If you're teaching content that's going to possibly cause them harm or trauma, have a warning. Give them a heads up. You know, same as if you've got a student in there that's got a disability. They've already emailed you their wrap at the start of the semester. Don't make them feel like they have to beg and plead to get an extension on an assignment. They're automatically granted that because they have a wrap. It's about being more inclusive. It's about being empathetic and it's about being, you know, knowing as a lecturer who you're teaching as a university knowing who you've got there, you know. So if it's an international student that's studying there English isn't their first language. Ask them if they understand what the lecturer was about. Ask them, you know, can you assist them to get them some extra tutoring or where the nearest English speaking class is or whatever, you know, like it's about being considerate. Yeah. Great. All great answers and I'm sure that the audience is really interested in everything that everyone's been saying because it's just so relevant. My next question is directed to you, Tracey. How can we make universities more inclusive for First Nations students, for students with disabilities, for women and for mature age students? I think, well, I'm just about all of them except LGBTIQA+. And, you know, I'm a single mum as well. But I'm coming up to 60. You know, I'm just about all of those things. And for me, I find it, you know, I care for my mum on my own who's got dementia at home and I've still got one child at home. So my home life does impact my study time. If I am fortunate enough to get into uni and have a few days to a lecture, I feel that allocating a disability chair or table right near the door when you're entering a lecture would be good for starters. Because I can tell you, I can't tell you the amount of times that I've arrived at a lecture and had to sit on my scooter uncomfortable and in pain for two hours because there was either no seats left or I couldn't get up the back of the room to a seat and the scooter would disturb the entire lecture. So have a designated disability spot at the front door where a disabled student can sit. Most people with a disability usually hang back and let others go in front of them because they don't want to hold them up and other people get frustrated because they take so long and things like that. That would be one. I think if you're waiting to go into a lecture as a student, this is something that other students can do, and you see obviously that a disabled person wanting to go into the room, let them go in in front of you. The lecture is not going to start until you're all in the room. So does it really matter if it takes an extra 30 seconds for a disabled person to go in front of you? Anyway, my scooter can outrun most of them down the street, so I catch them eventually anyway. But the other thing is that I've got, it does take longer to get around uni on a scooter. Usually you have to travel further from the norm, like from stairs and that to the disability lift to get up another floor. Lazy people just use the first lift available to get down to the lower level instead of using the floors. Again, those lifts are there for a reason. If you have to wait extended lengths of time just for the only lift that I can use, especially when there are five others right there, this causes delays trying to get to lectures. So I would say if you can avoid using the disability lifts for another, even if it arrives on your level first, just wait an extra minute and take the regular lift instead of the disability lift. And finally, for me being at uni, it's difficult to attend in person all of my lectures. So having a continued hybrid option is paramount for me, especially on those days that my spine or I've had multiple surgeries each year. If that physicality lets me down, COVID and hybrid classes enabled me to keep going with my studies over the last two years. So I think now that COVID's over, I've experienced the benefit of being able to log in at home. And I feel it's really important for that option still to be there. Yeah, I think that's some really good points there. And I think that sometimes universities forget that students come under multiple categories. The intersectionality between someone that's a woman, that's LBGTIQA+, for instance, has a disability that is First Nations. It's really not taken into account in a holistic way. And kind of we tend to look at individual bits of that as opposed to having a plan that is really inclusive of everybody. I have one last question and I'm going to direct that at Luca. And this is specifically for students that are LGBTIQA+. How can we make universities more accessible and inclusive? Various. That's a huge problem. I could sit here and talk with my conference about this. Inclusive policies are a huge issue. We need inclusive policies that don't just aim gendered. So we, like both for transgender women, men, and non-binary people, the policies need to change. Your toilets. We, and Tracy said, like, some of us are able-bodied, but we can't, or don't want to, can't, whatever, want to use those male and female toilets. So then we're stuck using disabled toilets and people like Tracy are held back. That's not fair to Tracy. It's also not fair to us because we don't feel safe in those toilets so we need more unisex toilets. Respecting pronouns, big thing. If someone tells you their pronouns, use them. Trans-inclusive curriculums. Not gendering your case studies. Unless it's obviously relevant. There's some cases where it will grow and that's fine. Or if you're going to do case studies, have, you know, Bob and Bill had a child, Sarah and Mary had a child if you want to gender them. And then don't gender them. Mix it up. Bully programs. Specific to diverse people. We've got, we don't have them. It's that simple. They're just covered by the discrimination policy, not good enough. Inclusivity training. I did a forum actually at UN a few years ago, Shalene was there where we spoke to staff, students, anyone who wanted to attend on how to get around all these things and talking about. I think that needs to be run nearly. And it needs to be run by the people it affects. So your gender diverse people, non-binary people, trans people, let them speak for themselves. We know what we want. We know what we need. Let us speak. I don't think anything to do with trans policies, non-binary policies. I think that's up to trans and non-binary people to speak. It's not up to cis people to speak. No offence. You don't get it. Celebrating diversity. More visibility. I'm not going to name anyone I was going to then. There is certain places I've been where they don't even have a visibility day in their building. It's not outside the building. Not good enough. Do it in your buildings. Do it so that everyone feels they have a space. It's not, you know, you've got NADOC. We do that. Trans-J. Have cupcakes in your offices. I don't know what you want to do, artwork. Get trans people to speak. Get non-binary people to speak and do something. Social groups. Big thing. I will use this word but I will say right now, I hate it and will never use it again. Queer collectives. Really? I'm not queer, don't like the word, not reclaiming it, not happening. Try and think about the names you're using for your social groups. We have a clear collective, I refuse to join. I'm not queer, don't like the word, not going to happen. You have straight away isolated me from that group. So you need to rethink of your naming of social groups. And if you're told it's offensive, don't say, well, it's not to me. Share your resources. Get them out there. There's trans hub 2010. Get your resources, share them around, make sure it's happening, everyone's aware. No sexuality and gender. Two completely different things. You will be surprised how many times this has come up and I have to explain it again and again. I think I have normalising pronouns. Have posters, artwork, info. Put on your office, you're a trans ally or LGBT ally. Let people know where they can go. Create a safe space. Don't treat us with kid gloves either. I don't need to be treated different. I'm not different. I am a normal everyday person. I don't want to be treated like I have some kind of issue and need to be treated different. Also, if you're running a lecture and this has come up a few times and you say something wrong and a student who has the knowledge tells you you are wrong, acknowledge you are wrong, do not tell them they are. They are the voice they know that was wrong. Swallow it. I've also had in lectures where students have used that trans people choose to be that way. If we choose to be that way that's our choice, we shouldn't put it on other people. Cut that off. An lecturer did not cut that off. Cut that off. You need to educate them that is not appropriate. They may not even know that's not appropriate. We don't choose to be this way. The choice we make is to live our truth. That's about it. That needs to be cut off. It's all about inclusion, resources, understanding, educating. I think personally in uni, the forum we did she would have learned a lot from that. By listening to the people that have lived experience, we can help you run nearly and open to lecturers, staff, students, everyone. So we can help. We just want to help you to understand and do it correctly. That's about all I have to add or I'm going to keep going on and on. Is it okay? Because I know you can't speak for everyone but is it okay? I was at your pub one day and actually asked I called a student over and I sat down and I asked I don't know if to call you the male name today or the female name today can you tell me this is probably identifying to you guys who I'm actually talking about but nobody else how do I know if like I'm to call you A name or B name today as in their first names? So like is it okay for students to do that you know with other students so that we get it right because I know I don't want to upset or offend anyone because I don't know. I know exactly who you're talking about funny now. It can be an issue it is okay to ask I don't personally if you ask me I'd be pretty offended but with this person if you have a relationship with that person and they're comfortable with it absolutely ask I say to everyone if you don't know ask it's not hard to ask and doing it quietly like you did is actually really good I just want to be like you know because back in my day and I hate saying this but Charlene will get it back in my day there was only one or the other there was you know and they had specific names back in those days right or wrong and I believe nowadays that what was called was wrong and you know so for me you know my 20 year old chastises me all the time because I say he or she do you know what I mean and she's like well how do you know it's a he or she and not a them or they and I said well that's the point I don't you know I can only go off what I'm told with the people I know so you know for me now it's a huge learning curve to try and reeducate my brain you're only highlighting Tracy for me the need to do better you should know this like you should have been already told this this should be in the curriculums you're aware so you know it's not and that's the problem we're not the students aren't being told and they're going to go out into the real world with horrible inclusive language with you know saying the wrong thing sorry someone's just commented I was just reading that Bailey yes we do need to do better so we need to do better so that we're not hurting the next generation like I'm currently supporting a transgender guy at the moment who's at school too afraid to socially transition because he's afraid of like the homophobia the gender discrimination he is terrified and that shouldn't be the case for our kids but our kids we need to do better so our kids are not terrified to be able to live who they are and that is who that child is and acceptance and do better educate so that we don't have issues like you're facing Tracy you don't know what to do they should be taught this especially in degrees like social science I'm doing that should be a massive part of social science social works another one of those like you need to know how to communicate and do things like this it shouldn't be that you're here having to ask me that question yeah I'm just grateful for a you know 20 year old that's some educating me in the world these days you know so that I'm not I know you know what I'm talking about but yeah you know so that I'm not out in the world you know I'm unintentionally offending or insulting people you know no credit to you totally all right we're just going to move to the audience to see if there's any questions and then wrap up the session so are there any questions from the audience Charlene and thank you everybody for joining us I really really loved hearing your perspectives I'm wondering if I can jump into the question if there needs to be a little bit of a focus on so what comes through in your stories is is all of the effort to actually get in the classroom and you think perhaps there's a bit too much focus of what happens in the classroom rather than every everything that leads up to that because I'm just wondering about all of the things you've described when you get to the classroom that's actually when you need a break not the start of even more of the same is that something that resonates for you yeah definitely because I think once you're in it usually is okay but up until that point you literally you know nothing like you're basically starting from scratch but once you're in generally besides some of the issues that Luca and Tracy have alluded to like it generally is okay like there are support mechanisms things that you can like loop into or have access to although some of them might be problematic but they are there I think too on that note my kids go to Sky School sorry excuse me and they get more education on like LGBT issues trans issues inclusive language than we do at uni how is this happening I'm wondering perhaps then if conceptualize the classroom space as a space for relief or space for healing if done properly rather than adding to the damage because I think what I'm getting from these stories is not just neglect but actually causing harm I think that's important to name as well thank you I think like everyone's so busy nowadays like it's not you know in Tort's Law we learnt about thy neighbour and who's thy neighbour and if you put that back to the classroom every student in the room is thy neighbour you know so in Tort's Law you've got certain obligations to thy neighbour do we not have camaraderie amongst students anymore supportiveness of another student when I made the comment about the girls much younger than me that had graduated law school and there's still those typical issues for First Nations people coming through you can't fight it you can't make change one at a time there's Indigenous students group there's that group but at the end of the day I think what Sapphire said about Entaila you can't see you can't be you know I can't tell you the number of times over the last three years in law school that we've had non-indigenous lecturers staff members and other people at the uni doing something like this on Black Lives Matter hello you've got Taylor Gray there took to court to stop a rally against Black Lives Matter you've got me who's for a decade now have been supportive of Black Deaths in custody at Royal Commissions and get us to offer advice and then you've got these people that aren't involved in the community dealing with those things up there lecturing us about them I just feel that you know the biggest if you take nothing else away from today if you've got something to discuss about an Indigenous issue do the right thing and have an Indigenous person address those issues don't speak for us ask us what we need don't tell us I think Tracy we could also extend that to LGBT people we have a voice we know how to use it we can talk we know what we want let us talk you don't need to teach gender if you don't know let us have a voice and I think someone actually asked a question how do we get that voice that's up to the education let us speak ask us some might not want to do it ask us let us be involved if I can just jump in with a question from Aidan in the chat for Taylor which sort of relates to what Tracy was just talking about and Luca is saying about the voice there why is activism important to you and how does it relate to your university experience thank you for the question it's important in almost every field I mean activism influences political outcomes I remember my professor Dr John Woodward he turned around and he's an elderly man very experienced lawyer one of the things he said in one of my lectures one day is where are the students why aren't they on the lawns protesting about this why is everybody quiet they're in the classrooms they're not out on the street protesting and I think he said that in about third year when I was in law school and it just stuck with me and I thought to myself we are quite we are somewhat a quiet generation I mean I look at First Nations people that have come before me and they're out on the streets protesting their voices are heard they're on parliament lawns they are radical and I'm really inspired by those people because they're never complacent they're noisy and I think the noisier you are about a concern you will be heard eventually and you know it has influenced my time you know as a lawyer in the courtroom at university because you know I a lot of the times I am restrained by these colonial shackles where I can't speak you know as a black person unapologetically in the classrooms and what I truly want to say because a lot of the time it has influenced my grades it has influenced my relationships with my lecturers and my professors and the doctors and things like that but I think once you know who you are and once you have a vision of what you want to achieve for your people and your community and by all means justice you can't ever let go of that and it doesn't matter about your grades anymore because the picture is so much bigger than your grades but having a vision never compromising your values your principles and you know listen to your community as well I think listening to your community and having you know if you're doing the right thing by your community they will have your back at university too but I think that's a great question I really like that, thank you I think um sorry Tracy we're going to have to wrap the session up so I'm sorry to cut you off but I just wanted to end by saying you know I think it's really really important for all students to be active within the universities whether that be part of their student groups, student unions or whatever within a university and nationally because this is the way we actually make a difference is having that voice so I just want to say what a wonderful discussion we've had a really amazing session and I think we've gained some really valuable insights can you please thank our student panellists for their expert analysis and how we can make universities more inclusive for our First Nations peoples, peoples with disabilities for people identifying as LBGTI QA Plus for women and for mature age students, thank you to our panel. Thank you so much it's been so fantastic to hear from you and thank you for being so vulnerable and genuine authentic with us I'll hand over to Jeff now to wrap us up for the break Thank you