 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Behel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome, Anvita. Thank you, Seema, and welcome to our podcast this week. Anvita, this is the season of tricky questions because I have another really, it's a difficult question once again for you. So I hope you're ready for this one. Yeah, go for it. Okay, so today I want to talk to you about cuckolding. Now, before we go any further, I just want to explain the term to everybody listening out there because about 10 years ago, cuckolding had a very different meaning. When I was growing up, cuckolding simply meant somebody whose wife was being adulterous, so he had no knowledge of it, and he basically was being made a fool of, and that was what cuckolding was supposed to be. Today it's changed, it's become part of a fetish which where men deliberately would like their wives or their partners to have sex with other men and they like to watch and that has now become the term cuckolding. So depending on the age group that's watching, I think it's a good idea to explain it and there are different words used for it. Another word for cuckolding is also hotwifing and there is also a cuckold, the female cuckold is known as a cuckween. So if that's if a woman would like to see her male partner or her female partner depending on if it's a gay relationship or a heterosexual one, see her partner with other people then that's called a cuckween. And I think the first thing I'd like to point out over here is that this is not about pre-sums. This is very much about one person being in control saying, I want my partner to have sex with somebody else. So it's not about a pre-sum, it's about one person with the control asking somebody else to do something for them, which arouses them. Did you want to add something to that before I read the questions? No, I didn't say exactly what you were saying at the end that they would like to watch or hear about the sexual act and that's what arouses them. So they don't want to be part of the act in any way, it's about watching it or that the partner would come back and tell them about the act. So the arousal comes from your partner being with somebody else. And for a long time, as you know, I've been telling you that these questions have been coming in. And it isn't something that we've dealt with but suddenly I found that earlier it was literally from men and a lot of them were just pure fantasy. Honestly, I don't think, you know, when they were describing their experiences, so you have guys writing in and saying, actually, I love to be cuckolded and my wife does this and then we go here and in public, she will do this and so on. And, you know, in some of the small towns in India that they're talking about, I truly don't see this actually happening in public. I think it's just purely a fantasy. After that, there were some questions that start to come in from men where they were talking about wanting their partner to do it. But now we've started getting a lot of questions from women as well. Young women who are saying my partner, my fiance, my husband is asking for it. And recently I had a much older lady write to me and say that her husband wants her to hot wife. He basically wants her to sleep with a different man every day. And I just thought that the demographic had become much wider. And it's a question that I think that we should now address because it's coming from so many different angles. So I'm going to start with, because there are so many questions, I'm going to start with one question at the time and then we can sort of pick them up one at a time. So the first one is from a young man. And he basically says, and he uses a lot of I want I want she must she must. Okay. I'm just warning you about this because you're going to get a bit taken aback. He says that he really enjoys watching his partner have sex with somebody else. And more than that, he likes to hear about it afterwards as well. And he basically says that his entire philosophy is that he wants her to enjoy himself herself as much as she can as much as possible. The only restriction is that he must be informed that he cannot be kept in the dark every time she is with a man other than himself. Then comes his question. He says, does this fetish sound very weird? Or is it normal? Does this make him a weak or a submissive man? Will it affect his future relationships or his marriage in any way? And his biggest fear he goes on to say is, what if my partner stops respecting me? And then he goes on to say that, by the way, I've had a couple of relationships but none of them worked out because I felt like my partner had stopped respecting me and had started taking me for granted. The first thing I would say maybe is, if he would be okay with his wife being in a cuckolding relationship, that will give him an answer of if it is normal or not normal or is it really a fetish. So the key here in some ways that we really need to establish is that there is a question of power here that is really important. Because one partner is saying, I want you to do this, right? And so it's a request coming and it's a request but as soon as the request becomes a demand or it becomes you must do this or you have to do this or I really need it. The request changes, the power changes. So is somebody being forced to be with somebody else or do you have the partner who actually gets aroused by it? If your partner is somebody who gets aroused being with another man and wants to come and what she's thinking is, oh I'm going to go sleep with another man and then I'm going to come and tell my partner and then he's going to get aroused and we're going to have sex. And this is so exciting for me and I love this idea. Then you found your match. You know, this works because the woman is getting as aroused or in the cuckooing idea, the other partner is getting as aroused by this idea as the male is here. And that seems like an equal balance footing of power. But as soon as we have a situation where one partner likes this but the other partner is thinking, oh he wants it or she wants it and should I oblige and should I do it one time? We are really going into areas which are problematic because think about it, partners, I'm talking about the receiving partners who have to go and do this. You have to get comfortable with the idea that you're not in a monogamous relationship, that you're going to have sex with multiple partners at the same time. That you're going to have sex out of your relationship, the primary relationship that you have, you're going to have sex with somebody else. You might be having sex with multiple partners at one point. You're going to share or talk about your sexual life with your partner. And what are the guarantees here? And we can talk about that later, but I'll stop here. But do you see that there's a lot that you need to go outside your comfort zone to agree to this fetish? So it's not as simple as he wants me to go and sleep with somebody. There's a lot that you need to feel comfortable with if you're going to go and have sex with someone else. What really struck me was this idea about how he feels suddenly taken for granted or he feels that they've stopped respecting him because that just kind of stuck with me. I just thought, well, does that mean that you have suddenly started to feel insecure after telling them that they have to do this? And okay, your partner has gone off and had sex with somebody else like you told her to do. But she's not really in the mood to come back and discuss it at length with you or she's feeling irritable. Does that become lack of respect? Does that become that you've been taken for granted? Isn't there just too much demand? I mean, this just feels like a very controlling relationship. It doesn't feel like a mutually respecting one. Yeah, I think with this question, I was taken a little bit back and I was a little bit concerned because there was like, I want her to go and do something for me. And she must come back and tell me about it. And then she must respect me. And it just felt a little bit like there was a lot of patriarchy themed in it because it wasn't like my partner and I enjoy cacooling. My partner and I like talking about what has happened or I really get aroused by what happened. Like, where is the question of respect? Like if your partner was enjoying it as much, the question of respect wouldn't come in because she wouldn't judge you. She's enjoying this. So she's not going to judge you for this request. She's not going to judge you for the fetish. She's enjoying it as much and she thinks that this is the best thing that might have happened to you, sex life as a couple. So I think it's really important for me, it is a tricky fetish because like you're saying, it can very easily go into the area of coercion and being controlling. The partner can very easily control and coerce and that is very problematic. So I hear you that it's a tricky fetish. It is. It's a tricky fetish and this particular question really had me on edge. It did sort of make me think, you know, I don't think that this young guy even knows exactly what direction he's going in. I think that a lot of these fetishes, a lot of these ideas wander into our psyche, they wander into our lives at an age maybe when we're not ready to deal with it and we're not able to. And I think that long-term impact of something like this is something that hasn't been thought out because as we read from the question, this guy is very young. He's 22 years old. Yeah, so as a 22 year old, what I would really suggest is figure out if it is really a fetish or a fantasy, you know, as you said right at the beginning, it is a common fantasy that people talk about that the idea of watching your partner have sex with somebody else is very arousing people have fantasies about that majority of the people talk about it, I would say it's a common fantasy right like that you get aroused watching your partner have sex with somebody else. And explore that fantasy because if it's a fantasy you can share it with your partner you can talk about it it can arouse you. But if it is not a fantasy like you're saying these ideas of jealousy, having another partner, we've mentioned that in the three some videos if people want to go watch it. It was, I would say nearly like seven eight months ago, but you know these ideas of it is not a foolproof thing that your partner might not like somebody else better than you that might not get into a relationship might prefer them sexually or might decide to have an emotional relationship with them. Is it a foolproof idea, you know, if if and especially if they're not doing it out of their own empowered sexuality if they're not doing it out of their own fetish, then that guy might anyway be better than this guy who's forcing me to go have sex with other people right like it's so easy to prefer the other person because at least there is respect there and they are being more respectful of the wishes and everything rather than being forced to go and have sex with different men. So it is tricky and you should really think that you should be a very confident resource person who will not feel insecure when your partner comes and tells you how good or bad somebody else was sexually. Exactly because it's not just about describing okay then we did this and we did that it could easily go down to how good they were at something and is that going to cause problems. So next email that was from a young girl who says that her partner is asking her to do this now. She's a similar sort of she's 24 years old, and she says that she's been in a relationship with her boyfriend for two years. It's a very loving very good a good relationship. They're getting married next year. So it's a good relationship and it's going in the right direction. Everything is wonderful but apparently he now wants to introduce the idea of cuckolding into their relationship. So he wants somebody to come to sleep with her. She says that she's really not into it she hasn't been feeling very good about it she's kind of saying no, he is now pushing the point. So what he's decided to do is so he starts off by saying just the once I just want you to do it once just for the experience you know come on it'll be fine. Then he went on to say that as life goes on in their married life eventually he wants to be the submissive partner so it's obviously not a one time thing he's thinking long term where he wants to be submissive. He wants her to go ahead and do this. She has basically said no she's very uncomfortable about it. So he's decided that he's instead going to get a partner for himself and make her watch. And she says he's doing this to make me jealous because he says he wants to bring out the anger and the fire in her. Those are his words. You know I really think that people truly don't know what they're getting into when they say these things because I mean, you can see the pitfalls that are coming. So he wants her to feel the anger and the fire and because he says that eventually this is going to give him and her a lot more pleasure. However, she says that she is really not happy. It's making her very uncomfortable. She feels very jealous of the very thought of seeing him with another woman. And he's pushing and saying just once just once and she's actually thinking, I don't want to upset the apple cart. This is a great relationship we're going to get married. Should I just do it once. Is there something wrong with me that I'm saying no. You know, I have to say that it triggers me and brings me memories of one of the clients that I've seen in a sexual violent case where her presenting problem was that initially he would come and say oh you're not sexually adventurous you're not sexually adventurous. You should get more sexually adventurous you're so like vanilla about everything. Let's go to like swingers parties and everything. So he would and she was like, and he said oh it would just be to watch it would just be to watch right, and he would take her there and that was fine and she was fine with it but it was just watching and everything. And then, finally the trigger was that it was drugs induced and she had vague memories of him calling other men and him watching while they would have sex with her. She didn't have to consent it to it or anything and that's when she broke off the relationship. But do you see that her consent wasn't in it she it was something that was his sexual desire or his sensual need, and it wasn't her need and she was not interested and even here. And I might be reacting extreme so viewers listeners, maybe it's extreme for you, but it feels violent to say I want to force you to watch me with another woman to, you know, make you jealous or something. Like, why should she have the memory of her partner with somebody else. And we were talking about, you know, there was such a reaction when we were talking about people in affairs and everything. It's a, it's a difficult memory to stay with. If it's not your fetish if it is not imposing if it is not something that arouses you, then you're imposing a lifelong trauma or betrayal in the relationship or hurt in the relationship, it will be very hard to mend, you know, you don't share the fantasy with her see if she gets aroused by it, see if she enjoys it see like titillate her with the fantasy if she gets aroused by the fantasy she'll be willing to do it but it will be from a place of empowerment and not from a plate of coercion or being forced into doing something like this. And this one truly feels like the ultimate in coercion that, okay, if you don't do it, I'm going to do this to show you I'm going to make you jealous. But funnily enough, when you I mean I'd like to discuss this more obviously because I want you to advise this young lady and other people on what they should do when they're in a similar situation but you use the word sexually adventurous. And I want to actually just tell you about the very last case study that I picked up. This is from a much older woman, who says that now her husband after so many years of them being together. He has now suddenly started saying, I want you to hot wife, and he stole her I will bring different men home every day and I want you to have sex with them. So she said that initially when he suggested it, that first thought of it, you know the thought of it can be quite arousing. So, as a fantasy as an idea as a dream, it's quite exciting. And she did get quite aroused but the thought of actually doing it just put her off in a really big way. And he started to tell her you are far too repressed you're not sexually adventurous enough. You need to open up you are you know etc etc. She kept pushing back she kept saying no I don't want to do this. Then he started saying to her. Well, you, you can't do anything for me this is all I'm asking for you don't do anything for me anyway. This is the only thing that's make me happy can't you just do it to make me happy. Again, she felt like maybe she should just do it because she said it was so full on that she almost felt like she should just give in and do it because it was, you know, it was like verbal abuse you just feel like you're being beaten on the head with a hammer. Again, she stops herself she just said I can't do it and she said you know that she was very happy to fantasize she's happy to sort of make up these stories and tell him about, you know, I went here I did this and so on and if that would help. But he would come right back to know I want to watch I want to bring another man and and I want to watch. Finally, she said to me I said to her because she said what should I do and my reaction was again, a pretty strong one. I wasn't I didn't I didn't think that she should be doing this but I said to her look it's totally dependent on how you feel because that's what it all boils down to. If you are happy with it then that's fine. And she said to me she said I'm not happy with it and that actually makes me want to throw up his dishes and sometimes he was fantasizing such a way that I will go to the Lou afterwards and throw up. Plus she says she has grown up children. She's grown up daughters, and if they were to find out that she had ever done something like this, how would they react and she's just not okay with it. But it all comes right back to this thing of you're not sexually adventurous enough you're repressed I'm trying to help you. It's not for me I'm trying to help you. Yes, I think today is the day of our sharing terms gaslighting you know that reminds me of gaslighting gaslighting is when somebody convinces you that you've got it wrong you know you like. They'll, they'll hit you and you'll say oh you hit me really hard and they were like, you must be joking that wasn't hard at all that was just like so I just factored you on the back, you know or I just factored you on the head, or the forehead and and for you it was like, they punched you and that's what gaslighting and that's what sounds here right like you don't know what it is I am telling you that you are repressed and you don't know and every day. And what I think about fetishes is that when somebody has a fetish and they really enjoy it they're not scared as they might be scared of being judged and people might question their fetish or whatever. But you know they're not they'll own it and they wouldn't be concerned about their children knowing it because it's genuinely what gives them pleasure or they enjoy it. And remember as a woman, it's your body at the end of the day. So when you agree to something for the pleasure of your partner, emotionally, physically, sexually, you have to carry whatever burden or impact there is going to be. He is just watching so whatever emotional turmoil if and when and if he gets or not gets that separate, but you will carry the memories of flashbacks emotional impact how you feel about yourself after doing something like that, all of those things are yours to carry. So, if it is not coming from your own pleasure, your own power, you feeling empowered you enjoying it you arousal, it is going to be something that is going to be troublesome that you carry. So don't do it for the partner do it for yourself like that's the first checkmark that you should be fulfilling. And for me why and I'm not saying. So let me first clarify that this is a common fetish it is things and there are people who genuinely I told you I was speaking to call colleagues because we're going to do this video and they said they actually knew people where the husband had this fetish. Had an erectile problem or other problems or whatever but the or didn't even have the problem but would only get aroused and would masturbate or ejaculate. Only when his wife slept with somebody else and think they would call a neighbor the neighbor was more than happy to come and have sex with the wife whenever they wanted the wife was happy to have sex because she would finish with the neighbor. The husband was aroused by watching the neighbor and the wife has sex and then the wife and the husband would have sex and all three people were happy. So, it's not an impossible fetish it's a possible fetish, it is a genuine fetish people do have it. But as we can see there were three happy people in this, all three people who were consenting to do this and felt sexually happy at the end of the day, you know, and that is the key to the fetish. So much to do with consent here for the person who is you're having sex with the, you know the female partner the male partner or like you know the couple who could be same sex or opposite sex. So so much to do with consent with this fetish. So tell me something, this line we keep going back to with a lot of the guys saying to their female partners, particularly just do it once, just the one time. Now, in a lot of other aspects of our lives, we will say this won't we to do ourselves to our kids everybody try it once. See if you like it you might like it. How do we react in this situation because I mean you haven't tried something you don't know whether you're going to like it or not. What is your advice in this particular situation do you think that it's the same thing works over here. Well, this is what I will say. I'm so fair enough, you know, but like we were talking about the older woman when shared a fantasy, just with the visual, you know, idea, the visual presentation she was throwing up right. So if the fantasy is not arousing you, the real actors not going to arouse you. So, you know, try the fantasy, nobody is saying it's, you know, it's not good to try, you know, sexual experimentation. So try the fantasy share the fantasy like you gave the idea, you know you could actually think of real people describe how you're having sex with them. So imagine the idea of what would it mean to have sex with somebody else and you're sharing it with your partner and how he's responding. So play with the fantasy and see how you do is it arousing you is it not arousing you. So I think that's your key in some ways to know your comfort level with it. I would say, you know, if it is genuinely a fetish if it's something that really arouses you, then I'm not sure by your partner doing it once it's going to go away. So what are you really achieving by asking your partner to do it once, you know, and is it, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm going to try it once and it's going to solve all my problems like if it is genuinely your fetish, then it will be something that you want again and again because that's what arouses you and that is what gives you pleasure and satisfaction. So, when you ask it for one time, what are you really achieving are you testing water to see if it's your fetish. It's a big price to ask to test waters to see if it's your fetish or not. I think, you know, this idea just try it once. I would question it. I'm not sure I'm really convinced by this argument. And I would really start with the fantasy before I actually jump into the act of doing it. Also, I know that you just said that, you know, if you really own the fantasy then you'll find a way around it that even if your children don't approve you will find a way around it because it's your own fantasy but I do feel that you know, as you get on in life, particularly if you're going to be married you're going to have children, particularly for a woman life is going to bring certain changes. And with the children there and things, and also a certain amount of societal pressure. I do think that it's extremely difficult when you decide to put your wife in that situation, or a long term partner in that situation. I do think that it becomes difficult, because at the end of the day you can't, or if that's what is arousing the male in the relationship or one partner in the relationship, let's not get gender specific. Then it's not going to stop and that is going to impact the intimacy certainly if the other person can't do it. I think what I was trying to say is that when there is pleasure, you know, we've spoken about other fetishes in you, it gives you pleasure, it's something that's important to you it's something that is that you find exciting and everything and I'm not saying that there is not societal judgment towards it or there isn't question and there's always a fear, what if somebody finds out what if you know people find out they'll judge me for having this petition things and, and obviously the judgment at the hands of the children feels way worse than at the hands of like strangers or other people so I'm not denying that. But what I'm just saying is that if it is something. If it is something that the both the partners enjoy as a unit they'll be able to defend it you know they'll be able to say this is what your dad and I enjoy you know or the father will able me to come to the rescue you say I asked I we both really enjoy this is something it's consensual we like it whatever. But if the situation is where the woman or the other partner has been forced in it, you know, then it comes across that there's a lot of dynamic difference here and I think that can be very troublesome because you're already feeling guilty or regretted or dislike it and then when it's found out by other people. It hits you different it does and when you yeah yeah and I think yeah that's a very valid point actually because if you're standing together and defending it it just feels very different. I think the other thing that I'd like to say at this point of just do it once. You know a lot of people might give in to the coercion and say, Okay, my partner was insisting. And I did it the ones and this particularly for women I have to say that you know you come away from it feeling really, really distressed about it, eventually you need to talk to someone. Unfortunately, what will always happen is that the other person listening to you will always say, were you not. Why, why would you agree to it why you know they're not going to see what what kind of coercion and pressure led you to doing something like this so. Unfortunately, that is the that's just the way it is so if you are planning to say, Okay, my partner really wants it I'm going to do it just the ones. The likelihood is very high that you're not going to be very happy with yourself. The likelihood is even higher that you won't have any support from anybody else you're likely to have judgment if you go and talk to someone about it. Yeah, you know people don't know about this fantasy and and the fact that I think it would be more important to talk about it before you're going to go and do it versus afterwards, because if you're going to share it anyway then do it before. And with any fetish. Other people don't understand it because that's not what gives them arousal, you know, unless they have a fetish of their own and they understand that Oh, you know, it's weird to somebody else but it really arouses me. It's weird for other people to understand. So, you know, find a community which understands fetishes or understand things and you can speak to them about it if it's a true fetish between partners. It's also important to see there's a third person involved like I feel like there's so much to do with consent here. Have you disclosed to the third person that that is what you're doing that you're going to have sex with him or her and then go back and tell your partner about it. In some fetishes, they like to watch. So in today's day and age, like in the olden days they used to hide in the cupboard and watch and I'm sure that no longer happens or maybe it happens I don't know. But you know you could easily have it video streaming and the person could be somewhere else so it needed to be your bedroom it could be another person's bedroom and your video streaming it and the male partner is watching it or the female partner is watching it. What is like, have you disclosed to this person do they know because what a betrayal for them they think oh this woman is madly in love with me and coming and having sex or not bad things up to me just loves having sex with me. Little do they know that it is being that you know you're using that person also for somebody else's pleasure. So, is their consent has been taken is their transparency there. Do they know somebody is watching them, you know, while they're having sex or their sexual life is going to be disclosed. So there is, you know, you are breaking somebody else's privacy as well in the process. And, and once again, like I'm saying, the third person could be as aroused by the idea that somebody watching them, but find that community find those people who are interested in this. I'm sure there are platforms today, where you can find these people you know it's not a random thing and, and to the first question that we had about the 22 year old man find somebody who's interested in this fantasy and who likes it like some people like being submissive like you said about that man they like doing things for the other person that submissiveness arouses that find that person rather than forcing somebody into this fantasy like, rather than finding a partner and saying, Oh now do this for me. Why not find a partner who's interested in this, you know, like look for that partner. That's really good advice so as we bring the conversation to an end and that you want to leave everybody with a little bit of advice both for the men and the women so the people who are wanting it and the people who are being asked for it. There are two pieces of advice in three I'm thinking for the men or the partners who want the building one start with the fantasy, see how it feels see if it really is a fetish and you really like it to, you know, find like I said find a partner who's interested in this fetish rather than first finding a partner and then convincing them and the most important thing that I will say to both partners is there has to be a balance of power. There is a tricky fetish, which can very easily remind you of abuse, you know, when we think of abuse and we think about men threatening their partners or forcing their partners to sleep with multiple men. We call that prostitution or trafficking, and you know that's what we call it, and it is, and there might not be money exchange but if there is a power dynamic difference where the man is forcing the woman to have sex with multiple partners and coercion, you know, is a continuum. Like darling do it for me and if you don't do it I'll beat you up is still coercion, you know, and so we don't know the pressures being used in some ways. So this is so for the women out there. You feel like you don't have the power in the relationship if you think you're powerless if you think that the power that your partner holds can be misused by them. Don't get into it because it'll just become tougher and tougher that one time will become two times and three times and 10 times and 15 times. I think the main thing about this fetish is equality of power, both partners should feel equal power and equally balanced in this fetish. If there is any difference in power, it will create problems. So to both partners out there, keep the balance, you know, keep the balance, keep the power equal. If you're a man then don't like keep it, empower your woman to make the choice, rather than forcing her to make this choice. You can empower her as well, you know, and she might enjoy the fantasy. So I think that is the key thing that I would like people to take away. Yeah, because I find that a lot of times it's a case of, it's almost like a desperation starts, you know, like I want you to do this. No, no, no, I don't want to do this. No, no, I want you to do this. And then, instead of sort of changing tax, a tax and saying, okay, maybe I can help my partner, I can empower them with certain suggestions, I can try and convince them through different means, it becomes more about coercion, it becomes more about forcing them. So I think that's really, really good advice. And I do think that, yes, there is, like you said, other places and people available who like the same kind of fetishes, explore that, rather than putting it on your partner who may or may not want it, because coercion of any kind, specifically in this, because one person is the one whose body is going to put up with it, right. The other one is just watching it. There's not the problem, it is one person who's going to have to go through with it. So I think that that can be, it can have serious repercussions. Absolutely. Yeah, I hope, I hope that this is certainly answered a lot of the questions that have been coming in, because it's strange how many people suddenly started writing in. So I really hope that this is answered a lot of the concerns and the queries of people who have been asking this particular question. And if you found it useful, please do like, comment, subscribe on the video. I am on info.seema.onend at gmail.com, send in your questions to us. And if you need therapy or counseling and you need to book an appointment, Anvita is on. Anvita.medanbehel and it's in the text below at gmail.com, sorry. Anvita.medanbehel at gmail.com. And as Anvita said, it's in the text below, so that should be a problem. And in the meantime, please stay safe, look after yourselves, the virus is not gone away, it is still over here, we feel that it's reducing but it hasn't gone away. Please do stay safe and we will see you back here very soon again. See you soon.