 to worship him in spirit and in truth welcome to hope today I am your host Angela Madden along with Jay Gilbert and today I am excited for what we've got on the docket I am you know the first let me say this is the first time that you and I have been on air together yes it is so I'm glad to be representing with you me too and we are so glad that you have tuned in because you've tuned in for such a time as this is not an accident it's not a coincidence and I believe you're here because God has a message for you and we've got a phenomenal guest his name is Justin Davis and I tell you what he's got a great book called being real is greater than being right and we're going to get in on this book because you know what there's a lot of people out there that they don't understand the power of being transparent and that's what he talks about in the book transparency leads to transformation you know that's the whole thing with Adam and Eve in the garden they sinned instead of just opening up the fig leaves and allowing God to do some surgery they decided to get religious cut some fig leaves off and cover themselves up that's what you don't want to do but it's so important that we are transparent because that will really lead to God transforming our hearts I agree and I love that you brought that up Pastor Jay because I think one of the things I see in scripture over and over is with King David I'm always fascinated by God's comment on him of being a man after his own heart well what was it about King David King David was the first man since Adam and Eve who lived completely transparent before the Lord he was the one who said listen I'll be naked in the streets because I'll give my worship completely undignified before the Father there's nothing I'll conceal we read the Psalms Pastor Jay and we get his story of how he's broken and torn and distressed and seeing the wicked prospering and not understanding but unlike Adam and Eve he doesn't hide he in fact becomes vulnerable and shares that pain and that issue those questions with the Father it's critical vulnerability and transparency with God is critical to our development as believers and what happens in us Angela when we are transparent what transpires when we open ourselves up before the Lord everything I mean you finally get to be real with the Father so in your realness in your vulnerability you're no longer hiding the posture of your heart and you're coming out from behind the bushes like Adam and Eve and you're saying Father here I am he sees it in you anyways he already knows that it's there so once you communicate it is re-establishing relationship with the Father it says we can't be separated from the love of God right sin only separates well what is sin sin is the separation it is us going away hiding concealing staying from the presence of the Father and when we decide hey I'm not going to hide anymore I'm bringing that it changes my relationship with the Father and it allows me to show up as he's called me to in this earth preach girl preach hallelujah well if you're tired of trying to be someone you're not pretending that your life is perfect that you have it all together well we've got good gospel news for you no one is perfect and we all have flaws and struggles our next guest believes that being real is greater than being perfect that's the title of Justin Davis's new book and he joins us now to share how being real with ourselves with others and with God is the key to spiritual transformation Justin welcome to hope today hey thank you guys so much for having me I'm excited to be with you this today hey we're excited to have you and listen real quickly I want everyone to know not only do you have a book tell us real quickly about your podcast too because I got a chance to get in on that I don't listen to every podcast but what you and your wife are doing is extraordinary well thanks so much my wife and I have a ministry called refine us.org and it's really just an overflow of our story of our story of brokenness and and redemption but last year in 2022 we launched a new podcast called let's get real with Justin and Trisha Davis and basically our heart in the podcast is really to have honest conversations about life love and leadership and and so many of us we struggle with all of these issues and don't feel like we have anybody that can relate to us or maybe we're all alone or there's a sense of isolation or shame that we're carrying and so the hope of the podcast and and kind of dovetailing into the hope of the book is that people realize one you're not alone you're not crazy and God sees you and he longs for you to experience a transparent relationship with him hey man well you're not think that's so important that we are transparent that we are open people love that type of transparency and you're your wife you guys do not hold any punches you guys jump right into it and I love it and I think people love the fact that you're being real with them so let's get real right now why did you do the book why did how did the book come about yeah so really the book is is kind of a 10-year journey for me personally my wife and I wrote a book 10 years ago called beyond ordinary when a good marriage just isn't good enough and we that book is really an overflow of our own marriage story we were married we've been married for 28 years now but 10 years into our marriage our marriage imploded because we I was a pastor and we realized that we were really good ministry partners and we had become really toxic marriage partners and our marriage imploded due to infidelity I had an affair with my wife's best friend three years into a church plant and 10 years into marriage and we were separated for two and a half months we didn't talk for the first 10 days of our separation and God really began to break my heart in that season for my marriage but I didn't know if I was going to get a second chance and so I started going to counseling by myself initially and then 10 days into our separation my wife called me on my cell phone I tell people all the time if the prodigal son's dad would have had a cell phone this would have been a call he would have made and she said I hear you've been going to counseling and she said I'm willing to go with you and so we began to go to counseling we began to restore our marriage and and got out of ministry never thought God was ever going to use me again and I started working in the corporate world and did that for the next four years and then in 2009 I was we were given the opportunity to share our testimony for the very first time we had never shared it publicly and what God did is we share as we shared our story of you know brokenness and reconciliation it was super raw and we basically just cried the whole time but God really opened some doors for us to begin to share that story and what people began to ask is how how are you so authentic how are you so real how are you so transparent and so we began to travel and do marriage conferences and that's really the bulk of our ministry today as we go to different churches and you know 18 to 20 times a year and do marriage conferences but even at those conferences and church services people who were single or not married or maybe married again would say how did you experience the transformation how did you become different I've been trying so hard and so over the last 10 years Jay you know I've really had this burden to help people unlock this desire that we have for transformation and the frustration or the defeat that we have because we're trying so hard to please God we're trying so hard to be a better Christian and yet that transformation isn't coming and so the book really is hopefully kind of a map I take you on a on a guide a guided tour of how you can move from trying to be perfect or pretending to be perfect to actually experiencing authenticity so that you can have transformation we know the subtitle book is How Transparency Leads to Transformation and if you think about it as well being real instead of being perfect church people always want to put up a good facade that we that were perfect that we got it all together how important is it to be transparent to be vulnerable in order and let me ask this question two parts why is it important but how does it lead to transformation as well well I think that may ask a phenomenal question I think you know all of us our greatest desires that we would be known and our greatest fears that we won't be loved and so it's not that we're fake or that we pretend to be perfect or you know we're inauthentic because we want to be liars or we want to be inauthentic I think for many of us we want to be loved and accepted so desperately that we think if that person ever knew that about me they wouldn't love me and so on the altar of being accepted we compromise truth and you know the word intimacy means to be fully known and that God created you to be fully known by him right and that's you know you were talking earlier in the in the opening about Adam and Eve right that they were naked and they felt no shame well that described their physical appearance but it also described their emotional and their spiritual state before God God knew them fully and they felt fully comfortable right and so every time that you and I compromise truth in a relationship or truth in our relationship with God we have this desire to cover up we have this desire to hide not because we want to you know be inauthentic but because we're afraid either someone we love or God won't accept us and so really the the purpose of authenticity isn't just to share you know on Facebook all the sins that you've ever committed it's actually to free yourself up to be who God has created you to be through honesty and transparency and knowing that God only heals the parts of our heart that we're willing to give to him right he's not going to force himself into our salvation and he doesn't force himself into our transformation transformation is a daily decision to surrender to him. Let me ask you this question kind of a follow-up with that yeah I'm sure we've all heard the statement TMI what's too much Justin I mean when are we too vulnerable you know some people you meet them the first time they tell you everything about their life and I'm like I don't even know your name and you're telling me everything about your life what's the difference between being vulnerable and given too much information yeah I think we've all been in small groups with people like that right like they're like okay I don't know if there's small groups for me or not that's way too much oversharing there you know I think we're called I feel like to be authentic with everyone and transparent with a few right and so I think transparency or vulnerability happens best in the context of trust right you have to have a trusted relationship in order to be vulnerable otherwise you know a lot of people think that they're being authentic because they share all of their marriage problems on a Facebook post that's that's usually for attention or it's usually as a cry for help it's not necessarily because they want to change right or you know that overshare at small group true authenticity and true vulnerability happens when you are sharing your heart or a struggle or an insecurity with someone that you trust that can then speak life into you to help you either overcome that sin or get past that insecurity and so there's a there's a mutual respect in the context of true vulnerability I love that separation that you make there between authenticity and transparency my question for you would be you know you find yourself your your your marriage is on the fritz you don't know what's going to happen but you chose in that moment to turn to counseling to repeat what is it that you feel like was within you that made you choose that because I know many others who have gone the opposite direction from that what was it in that moment that said hey I've got to get this together you know Angela I was I was just having this conversation with someone you know looking back on the implosion of my marriage God gave me so many chances to be more vulnerable and more authentic before the implosion like there were people that he brought into my life their relationships that I had and I had this fear because I was a pastor if I admitted this struggle or if I admitted marriage problems then I was going to lose my job I was going to lose my vocation I was going to lose my calling and so that fear paralyzed me and I wish it did not take you know my separation and infidelity to bring me to rock bottom but in that course of that one of the things that I discovered is you know rock bottom is still solid surface to stand and you know it was through that process that I had to come to terms with sexual abuse that I had experienced as a kid that I'd never told anyone about so there was this broken part of me that broke when I was six years old that I'd been trying to fix on my own or trying to put the pieces back on my own and I never sought help for it I struggled with pornography for the first 10 years of our marriage and denied it and deflected it and preached against it and counseled people through it lied to my wife about it and it wasn't until I was able to admit those things and find freedom from those things that I was able to then change from those things you know one of the things my counselor said years ago is unconfessed sin always leads to repeated behavior and so it's this idea that as we confess our sins to God what is he he is faithful and just and will cleanse us of all unrighteousness right and so that power from the Holy Spirit comes as we admit something that God already knows about us right but it doesn't allow the power of that sin to reside in our heart and to begin to take root in our lives and our relationships. You know Justin in this book you know you have three different distinct sections of how we get rebuilt and I want to ask you you've talked about the infidelity you talked about the brokenness how would this book by being transparent rebuild somebody from a life of shame into a life of identity and wholeness? Yeah that's a great question I mean you don't have to the book isn't about infidelity I mentioned it a few times at the beginning of the book just to give context but really the the heart of the book is for the person who is going to church and singing the songs and you know praying the prayers and they're serving in the kids ministry because that's extra credit in heaven and they're just not getting the transformation that they thought they would get from a relationship with Christ their marriage is still hard they still struggle with the same sins and so what happens is either we feel defeated or we start pretending and so the the book really guides you on a path of identifying do you really want authenticity like there is a price to pay for it right like authenticity is difficult you know Jesus said the truth will set you free what he conveniently left out is sometimes it makes you miserable first so there is a price to pay with authenticity but then I kind of walk the reader through this process of moving from perfect to real and part of that is realizing that your brokenness isn't weakness that God shows up most powerfully in our brokenness right admitting brokenness makes room for the power of God and then I talk about being brutally honest with God and that those who were closest to Jesus had the most honest conversations with him and they recognize his deity and they you know they saw him as the Messiah and they they knew that he was the savior of the world but they were still vulnerable they were still honest and then that allows us then to step into our identity well you know we have a few minutes left and for those of you that are watching you want to get your hands on this book he actually has a story about being brutally honest when Taylor Swift actually comes to his church I'm not going to tell you about it because I want him to take some time right now and if you would Justin would you take a moment I believe there's some people right now that are watching that are suffering in silence maybe there's people battling with shame there's people battling with mistakes there's people battling with trying to be perfect give up a facade of what a perfect church person is like would you just minister to them and then pray for those that are trying to be perfect that they can become real and be transformed absolutely you know I think one of the one of the lies that shame tells us is that you're the only one and you'll never be any different right whatever you struggle with whatever you've done it is going to define you and can I just say that God knows you fully and he loves you anyway and that is grace right and there's a difference between conviction of sin which is the Holy Spirit saying hey the the path that you're on right now it's not God's best for you you need to go a different way that's conviction shame says your sin is who you are what you did is who you are and that is not from God and so I pray that you would take this this time today that you have watched this and heard us talk about this as God just seeing you and saying hey I got you and I love you and I have a plan for your life and I think that this is a divine appointment that God has brought you into this conversation today just to remind you your past does not define you right what Christ did on the cross is for you and that can give you freedom and life and joy as you are vulnerable with him so let me pray for each of you that are that are watching today and I hope that this has brought some encouragement to your heart and God we just thank you so much that Jesus was the most authentic human that ever lived he shows complete dependence on you and honesty with you he cries because his friends are sad he allows his true self to be known by us and God that you don't call us to pretend to be better than we really are you love us as we are and you long for us to become more like Christ and so for the person watching today that feels isolated or alone or are desperate just to experience some transformation God would you show up for them and allow them to know that that you see them you love them and you have chosen them it's in Jesus and we pray amen. Ladies and gentlemen Justin Davis being real is greater than being perfect a story of how transparency leads to transformation thank you Justin so much for your ministry for your wife as well and your podcast and all that you're doing thank you for joining us today on hope hope today. Thank you guys so much for having me. Well ladies and gentlemen if you've enjoyed that we've got a scripture and some time of ministry just for you we're gonna pour into your life so don't go anywhere we'll be right back. Hope happens here at Cornerstone Television all this month we're offering a joy filled DVD Christmas with the Chosen the messengers for your best gift to the ministry gather around the manger with loved ones and experience the first Christmas through the eyes of Mary and Joseph follow the young couple as they take the long road to Bethlehem and prepare for Jesus birth plus enjoy an extraordinary lineup of musicians performing both new and classic Christmas songs from the set of the chosen such as Phil Wickham Brandon Lake Maverick City Music Kane and many others thank you for your generosity that makes the ministry of Cornerstone Television possible request your Christmas with the Chosen DVD when you give this month call 888-665-4483 or give online at ctvn.org slash donate from all of us here we wish you a very merry Christmas what a powerful interview about being authentic and transparent and today's scripture comes from Ephesians 4 25 and it lines up with exactly what we were talking about it reads therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor for we are all members of one body pastor Jay I love this scripture and I think that even prior to this Paul's talking about unity in the body right being of the one spirit of one mind and I love how this scripture says to put off falsehood to show up because we are one body you know I think a lot of times within the bride and and different cultures and different relationships you have you can see kind of dissension and division simply because you're not being authentically you and they're not being authentically them so then you're trying to walk this awkward balance and delicacy where nothing real is actually transpiring and it's all very superficial I mean this scripture speaks to that it really does as a matter of fact one thing that he mentioned in the interview that I think is so important I know there's somebody watching right now that you need a place as you're watching you have a tear running down your cheek hoping that I wish I had somebody I could be real with and then there's some of you out there that you got TMI anointing you giving too much information all the time to everybody you talk about your marriage to every person you can't do that you know I think about this whole thing going on with Will and Jada Smith and how she's just putting all of his business he's masculating this man you know you're supposed to cover your spouse you're supposed to protect them you're supposed to do your best to cover them people don't want to be open with someone that they can't trust and I'm gonna share a quick story about vulnerability I'll never forget my pastor back in the early 2000s I was going through some really difficult times in ministry my church had split I was all by myself I didn't know what to do and I remember sitting in Applebee's in Olean New York south of Buffalo and it was the first pastor I'd ever had in my life and I sat down with him and I said listen I want to open my life up to you but I'm scared that if you know who I really am you'll leave me and I'll never forget Angela he's sitting there in the middle of Applebee's and he looks across at the table I mean he says listen you have one problem wherever you go you're stuck with me and everybody needs somebody that will say no matter what you do no matter not besides Jesus we need members of the body that will say you know what no matter what you do no matter where you go you're stuck with me I may not like what you're doing and I believe there's even people watching you may have you may be a parent you need your kids need to know that you love them no matter what you may not like everything that they do but you're going to love them no matter what we all need that place and I'll tell you what that pastor is still in my life today he knows everything about me you can't tell everybody everything but he knows every little intricate detail about my life and it was the most freeing thing to know that I have somebody not only knows everything about me but loved me in spite of myself yeah you know and I think you bring up a good point you have to have that person beside you you have to and maybe you know people look around they might say oh there's no one around me that I can trust like that pastor jay you are so blessed then show up and be that person for someone else yeah you'll find just like scripture tells us what you so you'll reap so if you don't see it around you make the decision that you're going to be that for someone who in your circle right now needs a confidant who in your circle needs someone that they can be real and vulnerable with tell them that they can you can be trusted they can come to you and be that person that you had jay you know I think too when you were sharing about the TMI anointing you know I love this I love that I think that's hilarious but there's a scripture that says Jesus trusted men but he didn't place his trust in them and I think that's the difference of being vulnerable and authentic and sharing too much is that you must first come to a resolution that I can trust men but my weight and my hope and my expectation is not in men it's in Jesus so if I pour out all that I've got if I pour out all the love in my life and in my heart and they don't reciprocate that's all right because it's not on them to do it's in Jesus and as you show up in that way pastor jay I feel like when your position like that with the Lord it makes authenticity and communication and transparency effortless it's just who you are because you're you're not waiting for their opinion to solidify who you are that's right that's right you know another pastor that Jesus mentioned as well he said that he did not commit himself to every man because he knew their hearts and I believe there's somebody watching as well that you've had people in your world that have betrayed your trust and you're saying pastor jay that's great I did that and they put my business all out on front street listen this is the reality find the heart of the person before you commit everything in your life trust them with something small give them something little hey this is something that if it did get out it ain't going to devastate me and see if they change their perspective of you see that's the thing Angela I need to know that if I share my heart with you that your assessed value of me is not going to shift because everybody can't do that and sometimes you share some people next and they don't want to be around you they don't want they don't want to be near you they disown you as a friend I shared that with my pastor my intricate details and intimate details with my pastor and he never changed his heart for me listen don't allow the devil to keep you into suffering in silence because you don't step out and take another chance take small steps let them earn your trust see if they pursue you and then if they do you can open up your whole heart to them and then you'll have a friend that is forever and I'm so thankful I've got a man of God that's looking over my life it's such good wisdom to take those little steps to give them a little bit like I think about the Israelites he brought them out little by little you know and if we can do that then we can really begin to place these people in our life and and see okay who can I trust the deep deep things with and and who are I can trust but they might just not be at that deep level yet you know we encourage you here we want you to experience the fullness of God we want you to experience life and life abundant just like he promised but these principles that pastor Jay was discussing even in our interview these principles that we're sharing with you are critical to experiencing that life abundant today will you take those small steps to be that person you want in your life will you take that small step to open yourself up to someone who is trustworthy and maybe today will you take that one step towards Jesus will you give your life to him will you surrender all that you have and all that you are so that he can be all that you need that's a good word and if you're battling any of those areas maybe you want to be a person that you can open yourself up to and say I'm going to welcome people in and be a person of healing or maybe a person that needs to open up if you're battling with any one of those and need prayer our phone lines are always open 24 7365 888 665 443 maybe you need to receive Jesus you want to open up your heart listen it's time to be real when you are transparent it truly will lead to transformation and listen we can be a blessing to one another even as others are a blessing to us we need one another and if we can be real and we can be authentic we can change lives forever for the honor and glory of God go get them today this is your moment