 Good afternoon and welcome back to the program. Time now to get into matters rugby and of course we're focusing on the ongoing London 7s and of course the upcoming Enterprise Cup finals later for 4pm East African time at the RFA grounds along Gungrods. Sami Murayan Ngarwa Kamuya are still with us to give their perspective with regards to the two events. Sami, of course, fading out there is one man who is in charge of Kenya Rugby Union as the president. That's Jeff Ganglodori. How do you rate him a few months after his election? Well, Ganglodori has not done much so far. I think we can say that he's not had the time to do much and we cannot start blaming him now for what he's not done. However, if we look at the promises that were made because there are election promises just like there anywhere else in this country on the political field, when you come up and promise something, the most important thing is for you to be able to deliver. When he got on board, that's the first time we started seeing senior rugby players boycotting the 7th team and most of them are complaining about one, allowances. Two, the pay was being cut and the reason that they were being given is because of sponsorship and it's true right now not very many corporates want to be associated with the 7th team which was not the case before. I remember when Virgin Airlines came on board and that's like 5 or 6 years, 10 years ago and they brought in very good money. Kenya Airways had to match up. I actually even better what Virgin Airlines were giving because there was that question and that was even coming from the government itself in terms of how do you have an airline from the UK coming to sponsor the Kenya Rugby team. We cannot have a Kenyan rugby team that always flies Virgin Airlines to international matches and that's how KQ came in. KQ came in pumped in good money but then of course we know the problems that have been at KQ and they weren't able to do it anymore. In come, Spott Pesa. Spott Pesa put in over 600 million in rugby and that was the biggest sports funding that we had ever gotten in the country. Misappropriation of funds happened, they had issues with the way the accounts were being done and how the money was being sorted and at some point I remember there's a time that Spott Pesa literally started paying players directly. Same thing with Kenya Airways so that tells you that there was a problem at the union because money was being pumped in but this money was not getting to the players and to the officials and that's why the money was supposed to actually get to. So now you look at this team now. This team is a team that is full of rookies. I do not want to discredit them because they've actually, you can literally see that they are fighting for the jazi but then judging by what has transpired over the last two days just are looking at Dennis Ombachi complaining as well as William Barker and Ombachi was complaining about a time when he got injured. He broke his leg when he was playing for the national team. What happened? He was demoted from a first tier player to a second tier player and by the time he came back he was struggling. He could not even pay for his bills and it's not just Denu alone. It's every player who plays for the 7s team. It's also everyone. In fact I even feel that the 7s players are lucky because they have a monthly salary. If you go to the 15s team, most of the teams, local teams are not paying good salaries and in this scenario I'll cite my team that I support. I don't want to blame any other team. Kenya Hale Queens at some point had very good structures, had everything that was working for them. Right now you go there, you go to Queens today, you find these players literally begging each other for fare. These are the same players that are playing for the national team and when they are playing for the national team they still don't get their allowances on time. The money that they are getting paid is way too low. In fact I cannot compare it to even what football players are getting and football players have always complained in this country. So it's about time Gangay and his team just sat back, re-looked the whole structure and they stopped giving these excuses about where the monies are going. Because at the end of the day you're given money or you have money knowing very well that you have a series that you're supposed to honour or a tournament that you're supposed to honour. You're supposed to literally plan for everything. I saw Willie yesterday saying it's really sad for you to take players from Kenya, put them up in five star hotels and when this guy comes back home his house is closed. Ombachi was actually saying the landlord is actually seeing you knocking these players out there, he's seeing you on TV. He believes you're earning money and it's because that's what is in people's minds, that is the perception that as long as you're there, you're playing for the national team, you're earning some money. So these guys are really struggling and right now I'm actually very sorry to say I speak to some of the players who are in London at the moment and I know what they're earning. It's too little, it's even now two or three times less than what second tier players were earning a year ago and it's a sad affair and most of these players, the only reason why they're actually playing is like a majority of them play for homeboys rugby team and I'm sorry to actually raise that as an issue here. So the coach threatens you because he's still the coach of homeboys rugby team. So he tells you if you don't play for the national team then you won't play for your local side. You guys are calling it a spread, a spread. It's such an irony because rugby players, most of them are serious and top-notch professionals, of course being an expert in various fields but when it comes to their remuneration, how comes it's awful? Problem is the relation, simple. First, we need to understand one thing and I hate this argument of in our days. It's an argument you hear a lot with the older generation in our days. First of all, and I'm sorry, and it's been sound very crass on what they are going to say. We really don't care about your days. Your days are done. Number one. Number two, in your days, the people you are playing against, one of the professionals. They are not full professionals. So don't come and give us a crap about your days. It's a sort of part time. It's a part time. Look, now you're asking Denison but you're asking William Baku, you're asking Colin Zinjera to measure up against full professionals. Yet you don't want to pay them. Yet you want them to come for training. This case, during the innocence many days, you're training for six hours a day. You want these guys to come for training but you don't want to remunerate them. Yet you want them to compete at the same level as New Zealand, as South Africa, as England. It cannot happen. Granted, I like what you say. Red Bee has always hired professionals and you can do it. It can still happen. People like Khaafrika Yange. Khaafrika Yange, you know, he went to Bristol to be his master as he came back and still participated in the national team. But remember actually just to correct you, when Virgin Atlantic took over from EABL, EABL or the Shots Sponsors for Canada 7s, EABL used to give five million shillings a year. That was the sponsorship. Virgin Atlantic came in and bought 72,000 pounds. I think it was about 15 million shillings. There were eight for about three, four years. So they called in Zinjera Khaafrika Yange years. So you're able to double up. You're able to go to school and you're able to earn a decent living from playing rugby. Then Kenya AOS came in with 120 million shillings. And that deal was good enough to give these guys proper salaries per month. It's very easy to balance it too. I was having a chat with Biko Adema sometime this year or last year and he was telling me and it's true until Biko finished his undergraduate degree. Biko Adema never played in the Dubai and South Africa 7s because he was always doing exams. So it's very possible to do it. It's very possible to do it and rugby has been doing it over the years. All we are asking is remunerate these guys because the money, the reason we do not have sponsors is because the sponsors do not trust Kenya rugby union. Find Kenya AOS pulled out because they had issues. Kenya AOS had issues in themselves. But you remember back then in 2015, a director in the vice chairman then went ahead and abused a sponsor. I can tell you something and this is me, I'm talking, it's not Kwancha Cha, it's not USA. It's something I've actually had during the last election. I started somebody like EBL representative who was there at the election. And after the election he came and told me, look, you guys will get about our money because you can't touch you guys the way you are right now. You guys are in problems. That is EBL. Sportpesa were there, Sportpesa left. We keep on saying that they left because of tax issues. They didn't leave because of tax issues. They left because the union could not account for the money. So that is an issue. Let us not... When the campaign was hot, current chairman, I have nothing against him. I have a problem with his style of leadership. I have nothing against the person. That's Udoor Gangla. He said that there is a narrative that is being pushed out there that the union is corrupt. Jeff Gangla, I want to tell you today, it is not us who are pushing the narrative. It is the corporate organizations that you have dealt with who are pushing this narrative. They are the ones who are saying that the Kenya Rugby Union is corrupt. And as such, we cannot touch it with a ten foot pole. Not because of anything else. Last year at the Kenya Open, the president, who by the way is the patron of the Kenya Rugby Union. Who played rugby? Who played rugby. And you can see clearly his distance himself from rugby because of the shenanigans that are happening in the game. A game that he was very proud to be associated with. A game that you remember just after he was elected, he went to Impala Club to watch Kenya take on England in the 7s World Cup semifinals. So the president during last year's Kenya Open, he sat down and he said, the reason why you guys are not getting the attention that golf is getting is because you're not running in federation as well. It is not because of anything else. And look, golf are running in their staff. Well, so what happens? All the corporate come and then government comes with even bigger money. That is the problem of the Kenya Rugby Union. It's not because guys are trying to paint a narrative. No. The issue is that this lack of credibility of the union granted Odorogangla was not chairman before, but he was in that board. And he was in the executive committee of that board. And there's nothing to show for that. You know, I sit down and I listen to some of the things they say. They talk about the Kenya Chiv No. 1 status of the 1 Singapore, the Singapore 7s in their time. That work didn't start with their time. You know, it's something that had been happening way before. They talk about the 15th team attaining position 22. Odorogangla, it's not your board that appointed Jerome Powhat as the coach. It is Jerome Powhat as work. It is not your board that put in the relationship with the Western province because Kenya was able to gain from that. Now, as we speak today, Samin and Max, this year we only have one test in Kenya, one international 15th test. And I'm sorry, I doubt a bit. I hate it when we focus on 7s because 7s is not an income honor. It's 15th that's an income honor. World Rugby gives us money based on how we perform in 15th. Now, this year we only have one test. And the reason we have one test is because of one simple thing. We're not performing like we are. The reason why Hong Kong was coming, the reason why Germany was coming, the reason why all those international Spain is because we had risen in the rankings at some point when we were 22. So they sit down and say, hey, for us kids to rise in our rankings we have to go beat these kids to their place. Right? In a year we have 6, 7, 10 tests. We've come back to one. One test. That is the end. It's against Uganda. No disrespect to Uganda. I think they are the most entertaining player in this town. We feel like we walk on a chair. But no disrespect to Uganda. We are playing against Uganda now. We've gone back to where we were. Meanwhile, our competitors, Zim, are now participating in the Spospot Rugby Challenge. Something one of the candidates had actually promised to bring back. They are now participating in the Spospot Rugby Challenge. These guys have a former Springbok coach impeter the various coaching them. These guys last year alone they pumped in a million dollars for the 15th team alone. So Maxwell was thinking, I can bet a mortgage I don't have yet. That in the next one year we are going to be the whooping boys of rugby in Africa. Let's bet on that. Of course, away from politics of Kenya right in the union and the federation in general. Let's speak about what is happening in London 7s. Great start though. Of course, ending in a lose for Kenya Genest Fiji 24-17. What do you make of the performance from Kenyan boys? Of course, fenomenal show from Jeff Rolochu is the captain alongside his friend Bush Mwale. Both of course, featuring for local club Bombu is rugby football club. What do you make of the stats as far as London 7s is concerned? Well, I would say it was a good start because if you look at Fiji. Fiji is a team that has wept us proper in the past. So 24-17, just losing by a try and knowing that the final minutes of the game we played are manless and we played with six men. Definitely, that's something that we need to build up on. And it also goes to show that we can be able to fight relegation. So, I'm sorry to just throw a spana in the works. Yes. I still think the best thing that will happen to Kenyan rugby at the moment is for us to get relegated for people to get their hands. So that the stakeholders can go to the drawing board. The stakeholders, even the union. We just need these directors. Excuse my French to just get their heads out of their asses because that's what is happening at the moment. So relegation for us would work. And you know, getting back to mainstream series rugby will be a very tough task because if you look at the promotion at the moment, the teams that are down there that try to get in, it's never an easy thing. If you look at especially what happened in Hong Kong this year, it wasn't easy. So you're not even sure who's going to qualify and who's not. Zim has tried for the last three or four years and they are still unsuccessful. And I know this year they've beaten us in one of those matches that they've appeared, series that they've appeared as an invited guest team. So for me that would work perfectly. However, South Africa has just done as a favor in beating Japan by 49-0. So our loss, the margin in which we lost to Fiji also helps us. And what that means is we can be able to build on that. We can actually now be able to beat Samoa and France today. And if we make it to the main cup quarters, then definitely we can say we are safe. We don't even need to wait for pari. Dennis, okay, of course I have seen your tweet, you are watching the program. You can also submit your thoughts and feedback with regards to way forward as far as rugby is concerned. Of course a repeatable sports writer for the standard watching the program. Ngarwa Kamuya, the long-term solution and of course you and Sami seem to be reading from the same script on the way forward as far as Kenya Sevens is concerned. You want the team relegated so that the stakeholders and rugby lovers in general can go to the drawing board to restore the lost glory of the national team. But getting relegated also means that they will miss out on Olympic qualification. Double tragedy. You see, sometimes it's good for the house to burn so that you can build it from scratch. Rugby was, and just maybe to explain why we are in these problems. When, take it ten years back, the people who were serving rugby were serving rugby to serve rugby. They were not there for their own selfish interests. Now, I have repeatedly told Foma Kairu, vice-chairman Sashamu Tai that his biggest plus was his biggest minus. And that is when they brought money into the game, that's when everything went south. Everyone started focusing on making money. And that's where the problem is, the Sevens team became popular. The Sevens team was making it to the water finals, to the semi-finals, to the finals of this tournament. This meant that, you know, increased number of tickets to travel. So these directors are just thinking about France, just thinking about Paris, just thinking about London. Samia will shock you, and this thing shocked me a lot. During the union elections, somebody I liked to actually current Kairu president. Without any shame, after the election just told me, ah, no, it's about impunity. In fact, let me start planning my trip to Paris and London. Already. I hope already. Yes, the election was fresh, and now I've not even ended. And somebody said that. So, I feel that the best way to save this situation, though drastic, is let's get relegated. Let the house burn, then we start from scratch. Therefore, we see the guys who are actually in this game because of the love of the game. Because I feel that very many people who are involved in the game right now are just there because they see it's Akashkao. Or it was Akashkao then. Now the fans have tried out, let us get relegated, and then let's build. Sami, your opinion with regards to the overall run for, they just getting conclude the HSBC World 7 series. What do you make, has it been competitive enough, and has it been full of that move? Spice and ingredients that are required? Marks. Marks. Yes. I don't know whether you're being ironical or sarcastic. No, I'm being realistic, but I'm not. We all know that this time in the series we've not played well, we've had issues. I remember in Dubai we had our court team, like in Dubai and in Cape Town. But then after that problems started, the rain started hitting us, and where did it start hitting us? We had our court team players being told, you know what you guys, we cannot be able to afford to pay you, so can you guys take a pay cut? You're telling people to take a pay cut, people whose allowances you still have from the last season. These are people whose salaries have not been paid for more than five months. These are people who are now being told, come renegotiate your contract, and it's contracts that have not been honored in the past. And the contracts that they had, as much as they do them on a rolling basis, like sign contracts every year, are the end of the day. I've never seen anywhere or in any spot where when you're renegotiating your contract, you take a pay cut. Even in employing it. Even in employing it, it's never like that. So it's supposed to improve, not you being told to take a pay cut. Then two, I do not know why we fired Namco's for Pa'u, and I'm really sorry. Namco's a past 100 point mark for the 7th national last season. The only coach who's ever done so. We've had Mike Friday, we've had Benji, we have Paul True, and I think the best before that was 99. So hitting 101 in itself was a very big thing. And I remember, there were people who were complaining about Namco's initially, he did not have the experience, he did not think he was the best coach for Kenyan rugby, 7th. But then he came in, he proved himself, then what do we do? We fire him for no reason at all. Then the person we appoint is somebody who can be able to be, is literally a marionet. Let me just put it that way. And then 5th and 8th abuse by the way. Exactly. In fact I was going to talk about those controversy about even how he was hired in the first place, because he was 5th. So you go back to the whole narrative of who was pulling these strings, why did they want this person here? This is somebody who had a very big controversy, and I'm sorry to bring it back. The Rio Olympics. And that's why even the president now stopped backing rugby, because the only time that the rugby team went to state house, a lot of money was pumped in, every player was like, the second tier players were supposed to get 700,000 Kenyan shillings, first tier players were getting 1.2 million. Some people ate that money and they started asking for kickbacks, yes the money was transferred to players accounts. And I can tell you some of the ladies even pulled out of rugby, they just said I'd rather pull out of rugby, because I don't think I'll ever get such a pay ever again in my rugby career playing for Kenya. I'd rather just stop playing rugby, walk away with my 700,000 and not give back 400. And you can imagine how greedy people can be. This is somebody who's been given, and it's the government who's decided to give it as a gift, because if qualified for the Olympics as two rugby teams, they've decided to thank you, then somebody comes and tells you, we are the ones who negotiated for you, so instead of the men were the ones who were supposed to get the money. So you're telling the ladies, instead of taking the whole 700, you take 300, give me 400. How greedy can you be? But then there are several members of the fourth estate, members of the press locally are watching, so you guys, if you get quoted in the mainstream and in the publications, especially after your scatting attacks directed at the federation, don't get surprised. It's conversation that's out there. We are quoting things that we have actually had or we have seen happen. And it's the truth, unfortunately. It's not pretty, it is not good. Things are not positive in the rugby society. And it's from top bottom, even if you go to these clubs, they are serious problems. I actually support the same club as Sami does and we also have problems at our club level. It's a very big problem in rugby, in terms of the leadership, in terms of the guys who are there. And just to echo the words of Nondis Chairman Aukakeshia, he actually said, maybe it is good we get relegated so that we get rid of all these people who got into the game just because of money. Because there are very many people who got into this game just because they thought that was money. So Rojas, my brother from the people you can go ahead and quote either one of them, both Murayan and Garwa Goot to be quoted. And finally, your submissions to the Guards to the Enterprise Cup finally is coming up next in a few hours from now to speak. Cabras, would they bounce back from their beating last weekend in Katamega, in the hands of KCB and beating Palasara since? I think the only team that was able to beat Cabras this season is KCB. I think the reason why KCB were able to do that is because of their mental framework. KCB have invested a lot in their players. They took their players to South Africa at the beginning of the season for 10-day camp and a lot of their training was based on the mental strength and the mental capacity to handle knockout rugby. We have seen that. Now Cabras, in terms of talent, they are up there. I look at their back line, you look at their backs. Granted, what's his name? Brian Tanga is injured but you have a very evil deputy in Barry Robinson. You have Jonah Cooper at number 10. You have Kevin Kagan. We keep on sobbing at Queens because he went to Cabras at 11. Then you have an explosive center pair in the number 12th starting of Nick Baraza and Mario Wilson. Then you have Felix Ayangi who we keep on mourning also as Queens that he went to Cabras at 14. Why didn't you talk about Nick as well? I said Nick. Nick was also at Queens. And then you have the explosive, of course, but in my books, the best player in East Africa, Philip Walker at 15. So it's going to be very tough for Impala. It's going to be extremely tough for Impala to be in Cabras. But it's finals rugby and I've seen the team that Impala have chosen and one name really strikes me at number 10. That's Nate O'Simiu coming at number 10. Oh, he's back from his injury? He's back at number 10. So if somebody who might be able to destabilize Cabras, it might be Nate O'Simiu but I just think Cabras are too strong for Impala and I think Cabras are going to have it on the day. You and I, actually all of us were at the Rwamaka Sports Club during the same time on the screen between KCB and Queens and of course, Paditz had tipped KCB to be the favourites to be the win of that particular tie-and-tip. So it happened. The same situation with Cabras now that it's been tipped by several of you? Well, can I first say I'm actually surprised that Impala are able to make it to the final because if you look at the way they've been playing this season, especially in the Kenya Cup, they've not been playing very well. So what we are going to see is a proper farabiting of Impala. I'm sorry, I have so many Impala pals I know who might even be watching me right now but I'm sorry guys. It's not absent. No. I think you said that comment, more as a queen. No, no, imagine it's not more of a queen because I remember especially when you played them at Impala, I was shocked. As in, if you look at that game, it was not competitive at all. It was not competitive. And for once, when we were even talking with the Impala guys, I was like, what is happening to your team? The week before that, I'd watched them play Muamba. Again, they got a farabiting. So there's a lot of disorganization in that team and there are a lot of things that were going wrong. So it's not just talking, of course there is a queen perspective. There is that, but to be very, very honest, I don't see an upset. We also need to accept that Granted that was Impala during the season. The Impala we so played Haliquins at the quarterfinals. Against KCB? No, the Impala we played Haliquins at the quarterfinals was a much improved side. But like he's saying, it's going to be very tough to beat Cabras for Impala. It's been very shaky. Granted then the final, but again, on the other side it's finals rugby. So you never know what's been planned out. But my mind is on KCB. Quality conversation. It's been with the two gentlemen, Mimuraya alongside Ngaruakamuia, joining us to give their perspective with regards to what is happening at the London 7. Second last leg of the HSBC World 7 series where Kenya is also in participation having lost their first class 24-17 against Fiji, looking forward to bounce back and meet the opponents Samoa and France respectively so that they can improve their chances of not getting relecated contrary to how they want it done. Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure having you on board. Thank you for coming. It's been a pleasure to see you at the RAF. Because this guy has got some big assignments. So I wonder what you have to do. Pleasure doing this touchline. It's the show Y25Face the channel. Maxwell Vaseke is my name. Don't go away. Stay tuned. We still on.