 the show. All right. Hey, friends, we were going to demonic falsification. We are, but that's okay. He has to name it certain way that's gonna be. So friends, you're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio. We're talking about demonic deceptions and falsifications of visions and revelations. And we're going to jump in to that in just a minute. This doesn't we need to have the title on these. But we wanted to tell you about a couple things going on before we jump into the show. There is a course on Bible and Revelation of Prayer, which is an overview of prayer from Genesis to Revelation, very powerful text and and and course. It's a graduate course at the Abba Institute start September 5. And then do the you want to talk about the summit? Yeah. And so we have our next summit coming up, October of 2023. And it's entitled the Marian mystery and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. We have some great speakers thus far. We have Father John Burns, Sister Regina Marie Gorman. We just spent some time with her at Napa. She's amazing. Love her. Love her lover. Another one I love is Clare Dwyer, our own Clare Dwyer with spiritualdirection.com and Father Ignatius Schweitzer, just really on fire, beautiful souls that are going to be speaking to us on the beauty of our mother. And it's important for hope in a difficult time to know what's coming. Yeah, you know, there's just such a burning desire of really understanding our lady and drawing near to her to be properly her children of this beautiful promise that her Immaculate Heart will triumph. And so that's what we're going to be talking about all the different facets in that that involves that. And by the way, we've already sold a ton of these tickets. And it's a year out. It's more than a year out. It's a year and a couple of months. We've already sold half the ticket. So if you are interested, please go out to spiritualdirection.com for events and get your tickets now before they go because we will sell out. We do every year we end up with two, three hundred people on the wait list. So we don't want to we don't want to put you there. So get your tickets soon. Awesome. All right. Let's go ahead and jump into the show on your mark. It's set go. This is Dan and Stephanie Burke. Welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, your radio Haven of Rest. Your Hermitage of the Heart. Your Monastery of the Mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw on the wisdom of the saints to help us to navigate this very challenging life. And we have back again, Father Matthew McDonald and Father Matthew was written the book forward to a very important new book or a new publication, I should say, a republication of a very important book, Visions and Revelations by Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalene. Welcome back Father. Thank you Dan Stephanie is an honor. Blessing to be with you again. So we're going to talk through this as I don't know. Do we know the number Mr. Producer of the series? It's quite substantive six, five or six on how it is that we can test and know whether a vision or revelation is from God. And it's important for a time in darkness when the enemy tends to move more and God moves more to help God's people and the enemy tries to counter what God is doing. And feudally, of course, God be praised, but nonetheless it's there and the people of God have to understand these things, which is why he gave us the Lord gave us doctors of the church like St. Thomas Aquinas to help us understand angels and demons, that sort of thing. And the teachings of the church, teachings in scripture are to equip us to face these things, to test the spirits which were commanded to do in a number of places in the New Testament and then determine whether there's something we should listen to or follow. I think it's important to repeat one idea that we did early in the series and that is that we have everything we need for our salvation without any visions or revelations. Am I overstating that, Father? Or is that a need to be adjusted? No, you're not overstating that at all. So visions and revelations, whether they be public private revelations on the scale of Fatima or lords or Guadalupe or lesser private revelations, things that we receive in prayer on retreat, they are secondary aids to salvation. They only help us insofar as they point us back to scripture and tradition and help us grow in faith, hope and love. And that goes beyond just giving us good and warm, fuzzy feelings. Right. So in the last show we were talking about how what the devil can and can't do. We're going to continue that conversation with some really specific wisdom from the summa and from the church fathers about how the devil can or can't produce miracles. But and a lot of this in this show is covered in my book, Devil in the Castle, Teresa of Avalos, Spiritual Warfare in the Progress of the Soul because she speaks of these things quite frequently in in the book, Interior Castle. So with that, Stephanie, what's your first question you want to ask about what the with God's permission, what the devil can do? Yeah, and I think this is important because this this is really going to help us understand that these are things that the devil can see and do. Right. So we can balance out what may have happened to us or happened to one of our directies or happens to, you know, whatever and and figure out, okay, this is something that the enemy can do so we can't just blanketly say, oh, that's of God. Right. And you know, we have to be so very careful because we don't want to be led astray. So let's talk about some of these things that with God's permission, so through his permissive will, the devil can do the following. So the first one is produce corporal or imaginative visions, but not intellectual visions. So what's the difference? Help us to understand what the difference is. Yes. So St. John of the Cross speaks about three different kinds of visions. That are the intellect known as intellectual visions that of the interior senses or the imagination, imaginary visions and that of the exterior senses or exterior visions. When we hear imaginative visions, we shouldn't think that these things are just being made up by ourselves. No, God is giving us a vision, but it's through the, we're receiving it through the interior senses of our imagination. So that's the mode. And those visions, God are harder to discern because we don't necessarily know sometimes when the divine ends and when the human begins. And the devil can suggest things to our imagination that may seem to give us peace, but the effects in our life, the fruits produce pride, produce, you know, anger, produce, you know, except I have to do this, goes against right reason. Anxiety. Anxiety. And Father Gabriel talks about these different kinds of visions, particularly in chapter two of his book, where he talks about, all right, Teresa's experience and John's experience and what do they say about these kinds of visions and locations. What is a particular intellectual vision? Like, what is an intellectual vision? Is that only something that happens within our mind that has a, like an idea or that, you know, that's in keeping with church teaching or what, what is an intellectual vision? So an intellectual vision would be something to the effect of what the shepherd children saw Fatima, or what the, the St. Bernadette Subaru saw at Lord's. So it almost seems like there is something outside of us, but the intellect is being fed something. Whereas an imaginative vision, we close our eyes and we see something within, within our memories or we see the vision inside of us. Whereas intellectual, it's outside of us, it seems. That's perfect. That makes it very clear. And what I, what really helps too is that we're being fed. So fed some sort of truth, like it produces something of the increase of faith, hope, love, knowledge, wisdom. Is that true understanding? Yes. And if you look at some of like a mystic, particularly somebody like St. Faustina, she received both intellectual visions of our Lord through the divine mercy apparitions and also imaginative visions. And the diary sometimes spiritual directors, particularly no father Boniface Hicks goes into this in one of his courses. He tries to help people understand, all right, this is an intellectual vision that she's receiving versus imaginative visions tend to apply more to the individual person receiving it, where intellectual can apply to the individual, but it can apply more so to the church and the world. And a corporal vision is receiving through other corp, other corporeal phenomenon would be sensations of, of consolation, joy, could also be, you know, bodily phenomenon, like, like you smell roses and there's not a rose within a mile. I know in college, they had the personal example, I was in college, we were doing a meditation, there was the miraculous medal that St. Teresa of Calcutta wore during her life that she left at one of the side alters of lords. And I was reading a meditation with my household brothers, Conk through love, at Steubenville. All of a sudden, we smell, we smell something that seemed like a hundred roses were in the room and it was, there were no roses. It was all coming from the metal. So corporeal phenomenon would be, you know, something like a smell of roses or other, other issues. They come through your senses. Yeah. Yeah. So ecstasy, the enemy does have the ability to falsify ecstasy. I think that begs the question of what is ecstasy? You may have a better definition than mine, but in my mind ecstasy is a very high contemplative state. I mean, when it's produced by God, wherein the faculties are suspended and the person is in some way both bodily, physically, intellectually transported into an experience of God. Sometimes a person can look dead, sometimes they can, you know, look like they're being overcome. We have statues by Bernini of of Lutovice, blessed Lutovice Albertoni or of St. Teresa of Avalon in the transverberation. So how is it that the enemy can falsify this phenomenon? He can falsify this phenomenon by just suspending the senses and overpowering the person in a way that may seem, oh, they're in a high contemplative state, but actually they're just controlling, the enemy is controlling the body. And this is this false ecstasy is associated with things like possible possession. Yeah, and the person, once they become over, once they are overcome, let's say by a corporal vision or a corporal movement, if they assent to it, right, they can allow the enemy to then manipulate them even more, and which is why we should always, when we're feeling any kind of movement corporally, we need to test it. How would we test it, Father, if we're feeling things that corporally that we think are from God? One is the person humble, or is the person showing it off, look at me, I just had this experience. Is there almost like a disgust for it? And if is there a healthy reintegration of the person back to normal regimen in life, a healthy prayer life, or are they engaging activities of self-promotion? Yeah, so where I was going more is you can actually say, speak in Jesus' name and say to the phenomenon, if you will, or the source of the phenomenon, I command that if this is of Jesus, that you affirm that Jesus is Lord, or something like that, and if it's not, get away from me. Right? Would that be sufficient to test those kinds of things? Yes, or to go before something like the Blessed Sacrament and the, you know, like an adoration, be like, all right, if you are of the Lord in Jesus' name, I pray that you manifest, you shall reverence the Blessed Sacrament, or, you know, show reverence to the things belonging to Christ, His name, His Eucharistic Presence, sacred images, and things like that. So we're talking to Father Matthew McDonald about a new publication by Sophia Institute Press, Visions and Revelations by Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalene, and about how demons can falsify phenomena that sometimes we might just say, oh, this is from God when we don't know how to test them. This book was written to deal with that, and then also Father McDonald who wrote the forward, and then provided some very important work in the appendices that we're talking about now that give you real specifics of how to discern these things. So we're grateful to Father Matthew, we're in part, you know, we're, this is a long series, God be praised, because it's so interesting, that'll be out on spiritualdirection.com, if you want to watch the whole series, if you want to binge watch it eventually. But when we come back from the break, we're going to talk about demons producing rays of body and sensible heat, rays of light and sensible heat in the body, and sensible consolations and tenderness, and how it is that we can discern those are from God or not. So we'll be right back. This is 1252. So in the break, I want to keep going down this list. That's where we're going. So we'll go three, four, five. We'll just keep going down that. For those watching, want to remind you of the Abola Summit and the Marian Mystery and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, Steph, did I get it right that time? The Marian Mystery and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. That's the first time I got it right. So that's going to be in October of 2023. Go out to spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. And then we have a pilgrimage to Spain, June 5th of 2023. It's not very smart to wait to sign up for these things. They're always full. The summit, is it going to be at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament? Yes, the summit is in October 2023. And it only seats 250 people. And half of those seats have already been sold more than a year out. And it will max out, will end up with two or 300 on the waiting list. Unfortunately, we weren't able to find a bigger venue because schools are in schools, schools are in session at this time of year. But the good news is, is that the Shrine in Hansville is a beautiful, amazing place to be. Everybody should see it anyway. And it's an incredible place to have a summit. There's just so much grace that covers us when we're there. We love it. So don't miss out, as Stephanie said, a year ahead of time. It's already halfway sold. Also, the pilgrimage to Carmelite, Spain with Stephanie and I. Extra days optional in Fatima. You can find all these out at spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. And just because it's never too early to shop for Christmas. Right. Guys, this would be a great Christmas gift. And you could, you could literally go online, buy these tickets for you and your spouse. Wrap them up in a box. Oh, that's a great idea. Tie a bow around it. And you are done for Christmas for your spouse. And you will be such a hero. Right. If you look at our events page, there's actually a bunch of stuff like that, you know, the marriage retreat in February of next year that are, you know, really awesome gifts. Some, there was a guy who gave his wife the gift of a scholarship to all the courses she wanted to take at the Abel Institute. So we've just got endless resources for formation for you. So, all right, well, let's jump back in on diabolical falsifications. And we'll go, are you ready? And your mark and set go. This is Dan and Stephanie Burke. Welcome back to Divine Intimacy Radio. We're talking to Brother Matthew McDonald about visions and revelations and how the devil can falsify movements in sensible movements right now. We're talking about that anyway. In the soul, Stephanie, I know you've got one there that's really interesting. Yeah. So it says here talking about producing rays of light in the body and sensible heat. So the devil can do this with God's permission. And maybe we can tie that a bit in with consolations and tenderness because I think, you know, all those are bodily sensations. Tell us about or it can be. Tell us about that. You know, sometimes in prayer I could get a warm or fuzzy feeling or if I hear a message from somebody that could give me a warm feeling. And Ignatius speaks about this in Ignatius of Loyola Rules the second week. You know, the evil one could disguise himself as an angel of light. So if I'm getting bombarded by all these nice feelings, I have to discern them. Say, where are these leading me? What are the fruits of these actions in my life? Or are these feelings associated with these messages or these motivations to act? Actually leading me to a willfulness or distracting me from what the Lord is asking me to do first. And when I'm distracted, I can then fall into pride. I can fall into a spirit of criticism, a sectarian spirit sometimes, or a spirit of, oh, because I'm doing this, I am saved. I'm so much better than you. And that would be a sign that these phenomenon, even though I'm getting these feelings, are leading or not from God. Also in relation to bodily phenomenon, sensible heat, sometimes again, in like a deliverance session, or if somebody is praying over somebody, asking the Lord to work in their life, there may be an exchange and the priest praying over the person, or the person may feel heat. And sometimes that could be the Lord working through them, sending them free. But sometimes it could also be an indication that, all right, there's some bondage in that area from the evil one that needs to be worked on. Yeah. And so in the New Testament, there's a passage that I think really wraps all this up really well. Test all things and hold fast to that, which is true. Is it true that we should never accept bodily sensations or just de facto, let's say we've experienced God in the past moving that way and the fruit was good? I think we would have a tendency to kind of get a little sleepy and not be vigilant and not test them moving forward. Is it, should I always test it if I've experienced good and good fruit in the past by some kind of sensation? Yes, you should always test everything as St. Paul says, because again, when I get a good feeling, I want to hold on to that feeling. And then that evil one could lead me to a spiritual gluttony where I just reduce my prayer life or reduce my relationship with the Lord to the feelings I get. And that's very, very dangerous. Yeah, I think something that's really important about what you're saying because you're talking about these in the context of prayer, right? I'm in prayer and this happens. I'm in prayer and this happens. And according to St. John of the Cross is that we should immediately dismiss it and stay in that space with the Lord. Stay with the Lord, with our heart and our mind filled with Him. God alone should be our intention, our focus, our desire, not sensations, revelations or whatever. And I think what's really important to know about that is because people go, oh, but what if it's of God, right? Well, the effect that God intends happens before our senses will even pick up on it. So if it's of the Lord, whatever he intends by that thing, whatever it is, has taken effect, God be praised. We don't have to worry about it. It will bear fruit in time and we will see that fruit. So then we can go discern, kind of in retrospect, oh, is this of God? But I think with a direct D, I would say the first thing to do is to immediately dismiss it and stay on course with prayer. Is that, would that be a sensible recommendation? Absolutely. And Father Gabriel in his third chapter where he speaks about the attitude of the recipient, citing John the Cross, do not admit them. He would say the exact same thing. If you get these things spontaneously, great, but focus in on the Lord, that they become more persistent, then you have to consider them more but not cling on to them and make them the sole focus. And when you have to discern them, the question is, how are these things leading me to a deeper faith, hope and love? And a deeper, not only love of the Lord, but also helping me to love others in my own day-to-day life. And not necessarily, oh, I got an image of our lady in prayer like holding her macal heart to me, embracing me. That can mean a bunch of things. Yeah. So it's important to reiterate something. John is not saying don't be open to the movements of God. What he's saying is don't focus on them. You also brought up an important, I mean, John of the Cross, you also brought up an important note regarding a persistent kind of phenomenon, which St. Ignatius talked about quite a bit, which, as an example, St. John Vieny was constantly tempted to go to leave diocesan life and go to the Carthusians, if I remember right, it's been a long time since I read about it. And that was not of God. He was probably an introvert, probably just wanted to spend all of his time praying. And so the enemy knew that and would try to tempt him to do something good. That is not God's will. So it just reminded me of that. So we have to test, we have to know how to test. And if you're sitting out there going, how am I supposed to know all this stuff? Well, this is a great book, Visions and Revelations, by Father Gabriel St. Mary Magdal and go to spiritualdirection.com, forward slash shop. I wrote two books recently that one is very simple and powerful, spiritual warfare and discernment of spirits. And then one a little more deep, which would be a lot more deep actually. It's called Devil in the Castle, St. Teresa of Avalos, spiritual warfare and the progress of the soul. But these three books together, coupled with Father Gallagher's discernment of spirits and Constellation's books, we have all we need in our time to discern these things. But it's important to be at peace, remembering that you have all you need in the divine economy for your salvation. And you don't have to figure all this stuff out. You just have to be discerning and ask the Lord and talk to the Lord and test all things. But it's not, it sounds complicated because we're dealing with a lot of detail on the show, which I don't want to be overwhelming or cause anxiety, but it's really not. It's not a big complicated thing. So I know you have a question about stigmata. Yeah, because I just think this is like, wow. Yeah. So the enemy with God's permission can produce the stigmata and all other kinds of bodily extraordinary phenomena and any phenomena dealing with physical objects such as crowns, rings, etc. So when I think about this and you think about the scripture verse that just comes to mind is be concerned if all men speak well of you. Right? And we think about the different saints that suffered the stigmata, like all of hell broke loose towards them. They were being shunned. They were being written off by their orders. They were being suppressed and just all these things would happen to them. And to me, that's probably an indication that it's probably more authentic versus those that receive it and then everybody's elevating them to become pope or something. So tell me about the stigmata and what the enemy can and can't do with that. Again, he can manipulate any bodily phenomenon. And the saints that have received the stigmata, St. Francis received it towards the end of his life whereas Padre Pio received it at the beginning of his priestly ministry. They were never showy with it. They always tried to hide it. And the evil one, when he tries to mimic the stigmata, he can lead somebody to pride because of it. Because it's not authentic. It's from him and not from God. But the ones that receive bodily phenomenon never flashed it around when those things were from God. They always kept it hidden and they always kept it as a way interiorly and through quiet. They, through their own union with God in prayer, can offer themselves and by that self-offering, God could use that to sanctify the rest of the church as well as them. You know, you've done so much work on this topic. I can't remember. Have we talked about you doing a class for the Abel Institute on this? Yes. So, end of December to February 1st, I believe. First week of February. I'm going to be doing a course for the school spiritual formation called the Discerminative Visions and Revelations in the Interior Life. Where this book, the book Visions and Revelations will be one of the main texts as well as the Ascent and Mount Carmel. That will just be an opportunity to go over the church's teaching on private revelations in general and also lesser private revelations in the realm of prayer. So, if you're sitting out there going, this is too complex, but you care and you want to learn if you're a spiritual director in particular. If you're a spiritual director or anyone who provides spiritual insights to people, if you're a priest or a deacon or a religious that has any care of souls, whether even in the convent or a cloister or outside, really strongly recommend you go out to abaladashinstitute.org. And as you can see, Father is very interesting. His knowledge is very in depth about all of this. And I think you'll be deeply blessed by reinforcing all of this and taking this course. These shows, we're going to put together as a kind of a mini e-course for free out at apostoleva.org at some point. But spiritualdirection.com or abaladashinstitute.org or apostoleva.org, the thing is we have an unlimited, unfathomable will. And that's the right word. The formation never stops with us. Whether you want community life with apostoleva or just education at the Abal Institute or whatever it is, we're here to serve you and serve the world. And doing that, we need your help. So please, if you're blessed by all this, consider a donation. Father, it's been great being with you again and I'm excited to continue the series or finish the series, whichever way it goes, as the Holy Spirit leads. But thanks for being with us again. Thank you, Dennis Stephanie. It's always an honor and blessing being with you. God bless you. God bless you. Until next time, may the God of peace make you perfect in holiness. May he preserve you whole and entire, spirit, soul, and body, irreproachable at the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. All right. Thanks.