 Zakariya Banda. My guests this morning is Honorable Rafa Makachinda. He is the Patriotic Front Information and Publicity Chairperson, he is a member of the Central Committee. Good morning and welcome to the programs. Mr. Banda, good morning and good morning to our listeners and good morning to my brother, Mr. Naonkoma. I look forward to an informative discussion. Indeed, like you mentioned in the studio we also have Mr. Naonkoma, he is an economist and United Party for National Development Member. Always a pleasure to have you Mr. Naonkoma and welcome to the program. Thank you, Zak and may I also recognize my leader here, Honorable Rafa Makachinda and also to the listeners there, thank you for tuning in and to our crew and support staff here. Indeed. Thank you. So we're going to obviously look at a number of interesting issues, both politics, we'll look at the economy and many others. So let's start first of all, let me first and foremost recognize the fact that in very few weeks time the United Party for National Development UP and they will be clocking two years in office and if I was to ask how much could you say you have so far achieved in relation to your campaign promises? Mr. Naonkoma. Thank you once again. I think that is a very loaded question loaded in the sense that there is so much that I think can be said in as far as our success stories and I think as UPND, we indeed campaigned on a platform to transform people's lives, living standards and welfare and it will be actually naive to suggest that we have not made strikes towards that direction and I will tell you why. First of all, when we assumed office we did recognize that there was going to be need for huge structural reforms structural reforms in the economy because at that point the economy was basically in ICU. Right? And to be able to reform the economy there were drastic states and measures that had to be taken and one of the things that I think we should not hide away from was the fact that it has taken us longer than we had anticipated to be able to reach the stage of what you call debt restructuring. This basically has been the elephant in the room. All the promises that as UPND we made were anchored on the fact that first of all we needed to stabilize the economy take it out of ICU, stabilize it and begin to consolidate and make progress. So for anyone to suggest that in the last two years that we have been in office there is no success story I think we have done a lot. And I will tell you why. First of all, debt restructuring itself was a key to be able to open opportunities in terms of beginning to grow the economy beginning to create opportunities for our youths employment opportunities to begin also to create or unlock liquidity into the economy so that those entrepreneurs the farmers and all sectors of the economy begin to get the benefit of not only stabilize the economy but an economy which is beginning to cost growth. We took office on the back of an economy which was in recession. Negative growth. We are now projecting that this year we should be somewhere around 5% growth or positive growth. Now it's not easy for people to be able to get what you call trickle down effects almost immediately but I will demonstrate during the conversation that there are those trickle down effects that began to impact on our people positive. Things like Sidia for example that is one way of unlocking liquidity and also beginning to pass on those benefits of a stable economy an economy which is beginning to demonstrate growth to the people who basically deserve that intervention more. So I think in opening I can only state that there are so many successes which we have scored at the biggest being able to achieve debt restriction. Thank you. In short, Honora Bona Kachinda what Mr. Koma is saying that the snail space that the UPND has had in terms of development was mainly caused by your regime which obviously left the economy of this country in ICU. How do you react to that? I think for a start allow me to sympathize with Mr. Koma to try and project a hopeful situation in the midst of a mess is quite a mammoth task and no matter how skilled you may be if you are speaking away from reality you may just obviously trade with rhetoric that may not translate into something the people out there will understand. He started by saying the promise of the UPND was to come into government to transform the lives of the people of Zambia and if that is the case it means that we must examine what kind of change have the people of Zambia so far experienced and to be realistic because I think when it comes to the economy economics is a science that is not in abstract it's about real life science that deals with day to day livelihood of people they have yes done a fantastic job in transforming people's lives in my view by increasing the price of millimio from 90 kwacha at most 130 kwacha to almost 400 kwacha today the price of millimio is around 380 kwacha so if at all it is in that regard that they came to transform people's lives they have done a fantastic job because my mother my aunt, my cousins our people out there are struggling some of them the price of millimio is actually half the allowance of money they generate from their little economic activities they promise to transform lives the lives of Zambian people by ensuring that when it comes to production in the farming sector agriculture sector they will reduce the price of agriculture of agriculture inputs particular fertilizer president Dhaka in the HNM promising that the bag of millimio of fertilizer will reduce to 250 at the time that he was making those promises where Mr. Koma is trying to suggest that the economy was in ICU the bag of fertilizer was just around 600 to 700 kwacha today the bag of millimio of fertilizer is above 1300 to 1400 kwacha they promise to transform people's lives by further promising that in opposition they had presented themselves better to stakeholders and people that intended to invest in Zambia Mr. Kanda Hrema was out there pronouncing himself that he had already secured money to a tune of 25 billion dollars and that within 10 days after him being inaugurated those pledges will be actualized this is 2 years down the line the rhetoric that we have been fed with is the same one that Mr. Koma is trying to repeat here an IMF rhetoric an IMF rhetoric in the sense that the economy was in ICU when patriotic front was in government but they don't qualify the reason for which we had found ourselves in that situation it's not only Zambia that found itself in an isolated situation of having the economy struggle we know that the devastating effect of COVID-19 which the UPND must acknowledge is what led to what they sometimes tried to twist or manipulate to advance a narrative that were actually negative in terms of economic growth negative economic growth for Zambia was global even some of the renowned strong and big economics posted negative growth actually for Zambia we were even at some point if you remember rated among the 4 best performing countries during the time of COVID not only in terms of managing the COVID situation but also managing the economic situation because I think for some countries it was very devastating but they were making fantastic pronouncements that you would wonder are they living within the same environment we are living or this is just a deceptive trick to get into government I appreciate the fact that Ms. Ankoma has admitted that what they projected and they were talking about which I think were just dead dreaming now the re-editors hit the situation and the situation is getting worse as I maybe conclude my first submission because I'm talking and debating with Mr. Ankoma I want us to be realistic we can never talk of economic growth anywhere whether it is PF in government or UPN in government if the aspect of production is not on the table if we have debt restructuring that's an IMF rhetoric it's about trying to find a way in which we can mitigate the fact that we owe and we need to pay back but that restructuring doesn't answer the fact that we're going to be able to pay whether now or in the future if the aspect of production is not resolved of course I was zooming when we were coming and needed to understand the guests that I'm going to have in past two minutes for finance I expect him to come and report on this station whether or not Mr. Sagotwani and Chupoka Molenga are having regular meetings to discuss issues of production whether it is in terms of manufacturing and so on especially that in the agriculture sector they fail to perform it's a disaster so I can only say that if he is going to assure not only me but the zaman people that there is a deliberate effort away from the IMF tables and board rooms away from board rooms to which people are even being rewarded and the pronounced heroes when in fact where they are coming from here in Zambia Things IMS we want to see whether he's going to demonstrate steps that are being taken towards production but I can tell you this government the ruling UPND are more in exchange of rhetoric especially the one that is caved for them by the IMF as an institution and of course Mr. Honorabunakachinda puts across to you Mr. Komama a very critical issue that the progression of the economy must be dependent on production and production is indeed an issue that this country needs to implement for it to see the light of day as far as economic independence is concerned do you have anything that he has put to you as a challenge now to demonstrate that this regime is focused in terms of production Yes I just want to also sympathize with the PF administration first of all what my brother here Honorabunakachinda is saying they are not admitting the fact that they created the mess that UPND is trying to resolve and I will demonstrate to you first of all he talks about that Zambia under their stewardship towards the end of their tenure was rated among one of the best top 4 performing companies that's a lie and I'll tell you why your country in sub-Saharan Africa notwithstanding the COVID impact notwithstanding the global economic slowdown ever triggered what you call a dead standstill we are the first is that a measure of success is that a measure of prudent economic management no it's a failure it's a failure it's a total failure the beginning the end of what you call economic management economic management process when you say to yourself we have given up they gave up on the economy the economy was in what you call a autopilot in the last 2 years of the PF administration we had for the first time the inflation rate the rate at which the prices increase at par with the exchange rate 24.6 I heard it on this program that never have we ever seen this kind of economic mismanagement then two if you say that the lives of the zerman people were better under PF than they are now I mentioned one thing to stabilize the economy we are now able to see one that there is hope and why do I say so he talked about the president making during the time he was in opposition making pronouncements to the effect that Zambia were tried so much investment and so on Kenny also admit that in the last 2 years of the PF administration there was no new industry the mess we are seeing on the copper belt KCM Mopani the mess was created in the last 2 years of the administration where a mine investor abandoned the mine Mopani now is that what you call prudent economic management KCM what has happened to KCM collapsing the entire copper belt it was under their watch and how did they want to mitigate that by becoming father christmas they were going with bags of money to be able to appease the poor people had lost jobs in the mines the poor people who were looking for sustainable empowerment opportunities like jobs they felt to create jobs then now as I am talking to you just yesterday the Niko mine in Zambia has been operationalized going to create 700 jobs the Niko mine in Kalumbeda as we are talking now the minister of mines he is on record that the Mopani and KCM mines are about to resume production and announcement is imminent the damage was such that to re to re-energize and re restore credibility for investors in this country was a mammoth task because first of all we lost the little credibility that he was in MMD Ken Honarebo Rafa Nakachinda tell me at the time that MMD was handing over power to PF what was the price of fertilizer did he tell me it was 300 right what did they leave it at as PF where they were leaving government they left the price of fertilizer at 700 800 now are you telling me that in that 10 years they transformed the people's lives looking at the indices I am talking about the answer is no what did they find the price of mini mail when they were taking over government when he was handing over he was in MMD handing over to PF at what price mini mail was about was not 60 what did they hand over to so let us first of all be realistic he talked about we cannot talk about economics in a vacuum and I will tell you about economics one of the things that you have to understand that every country has got what you call an index which is called an inflation index P2 there is no time that zamiaz negative minus 5, minus 2, minus 3 is always plus every country, even Britain, even USA so now what does that inflation mean inflation basically means that prices in any economy will never remain static they will increase but what any responsible government does is to make sure that that increase is more or less at a slower pace at a slower pace now you are talking about that UPN years ago to economic recovery program if we did not have an economic recovery program would not have achieved debt restructuring they failed three ministers under PF failed to get debt restructuring Madre Tuponakatwe Honore Boferi Simtati Honore BoWedema they failed they were every now and then trekking to Washington why it's because they did not have an IOT of credibility they never had an economic recovery program the economic recovery program that we have which we have been transparent and we have been publicized here is it but they just don't want to admit that things are happening it has been so transparent to the extent that even that one who does not want to agree with us has been able to agree let me just conclude we have demonstrated that we may well then Kiwud nitrogen chemicals of Zambia have you seen the effort the investment that we are putting back to nitrogen chemicals of Zambia when they came in as PF they found yes nitrogen chemicals of Zambia Olympic but now nitrogen chemicals of Zambia is almost posting 60 70% capacity in production we have managed under our 2 years as short as it may be to get united capital fertilizer to start producing fertilizer right there are one or two more fertilizer plants which are about to be commissioned and this is our intervention in the agriculture sector because we know that an economy outside agriculture is not there or here then 2 just look at how they treated the farmers when they were living government the exchange rate was at about 2024 how much was they paying 50 kg bank of maize to a farmer 150 divide that by 24 how much does it give you 80 dollars correct we are now paying 250 divide today's rate is it 17 by 250 how much is that what does it give you over 10 13 dollars almost double what they left so who was making a genuine effort to transform people's lives between what they left and what we are trying to do it may not be the pace that would like it to be because there are things which are humanly impossible for us to be able to accelerate but there is a genuine demonstration of a leadership which knows what which has got a plan and knows what it is what it is doing and it knows where it is going our post there for now let me move to the fact that the UPNB appears to have achieved a lot even just from what he has explained in less than two years of their being in office they had to what the PF during the 10 years for example for example the UPNB boss of increasing CDF allocation to 28.5 million the boss of having brought free education removed cutters and bus stations and markets including restoring the rule of law why is it difficult or so difficult for you the patriotic front to actually accept that these are there and why is it so difficult for you to really commend these visible achievements that the UPNB has always talked about in the past I think it's important for me to first of all briefly about the procession first of all to try and suggest that I am presenting lies I think the example people know who have the propensity to tell lies and we don't have to compete on that I think if we were to competing in terms of telling lies the winners are already non Minister Ankoma is saying that trying to boast and emphasize that the achievement has to that restructuring and he is trying to suggest here that as patriotic front were thrown in the town when in fact we just being prudent in approaching issues of the restructuring how we knew that having been you know greatly affected and devastated by the covid situation there was no way we could have stated especially that it was just after the aftermath of the effects of the kame change who could pay because the issues of production had gone down Doctor Waryangandu only invoked a proviso or provision in the date agreement within the G20 you know date management framework indicates that in terms of if we proceed to pay some of the obligation at that particular time we are not being able to sustain and therefore we needed to immediately engage because of course there were much first stage of people that we owed so there was no way you could treat use double standard in treating those that you owe so even when we could afford for example if I owe Mr. Bandai Mr. Koma the other gentleman there and I have an obligation to pay all of you and you know that I owe all of you there was no way I could give Mr. Koma special treatment for me to be able to sustain my relationship and be able to pay you back you should also be confident that the same I'm treating Mr. Koma as a creditor is the same I'm treating you and treating the other person this debt destruction program that Mr. Koma wants to boast about was initiated by patriotic front where the ones we even contracted result as a consultant to be able to undertake this process so of course it was towards an election and to that effect PF got into government they carried through with the same consulted contracted by patriotic front so the achievement that they want to clothe themselves with and boast about was initiated under patriotic front the IMF program that he wants to say we didn't cut a deal the only difference is that for us we didn't want to surrender our soul to IMF programs we had insisted under the leadership president Edgar Chagarungu that we if you remember there was a famous you know pronouncement that we want to have homegrown solutions so even when we engaging IMF we don't want to literally just surrender to IMF conditions or to devastate the local people the reason today we are having even issues of for example the poorest of the poor being kicked out of the system the manner they are being kicked out some of these are even tied to IMF conditions when it comes to issues of the mines because you know at global level and I want to believe him he has worked for big banks and all that he knows that when it comes to people in charge of who run the global economy basically the same empires they have interest in whether it's world bank they have interest in IMF and so on and as a small economy we have to really be tactful in how we do and navigate around the global syndicates and to that effect when IMF is put imposing certain conditions I can tell you there are conditions that favor possibly people who also have an interest in IMF so to that effect our balance that we have to to have home grown solutions in so far as IMF program is concerned is what cause IMF to delay and I knew the election is coming and to that effect the UPND ran with a narrative that referred to cut a D and so on 2 years down the line he said that we didn't pay the question I ask is that have you paid any of the data given for this so-called data structure because of their request shift in terms of policy position we have always held traditionary from counter days and unaligned policy position as a country we were friends of everybody but when they got into government they decided to give what seemed like a cut shoulder to the east China being among those in that blockade and to that effect delayed negotiations had we been given an opportunity to get back into government I can tell you the data structure not going to be resolved faster than what has happened 2 years down the line and they continue on the blame game now we have asked a question in relation to what they are suggesting that is a success story the CDF look the UPND maybe because of not understanding how government works aspiring to get into office but to know what to do when you get there is another there has always been a debate in this country about decentralization a program that I think and a template that has been interrogated for some time the UPND because of the incarnation towards populism the president comes and just makes a knee-jake pronouncement I'm increasing CDF even the legal framework not put in place attempting to do that now now to have that implemented they have found themselves in a very chaotic situation so they have put money from sector ministries brought it under local government and they have for purposes of populism and politics they have pronounced that they are giving each constituency 28.3 million kwacha and they can say every demand from the people of Zambia in relation to the services they need from government whether it's a construction of roads whether it is a health facilities whether it is issues to do with bazaarism in education and every aspect that Zambians have to do with every other day they are saying they see the CDF money empowerment they see the CDF money when, before CDF was basically just a pace some money put in the pace of a member of parliament through local government to be able to meet mitigate small small projects that don't need the bureaucrats of government to be able to meet today under the sleeves of UPND they have borrowed over 1 billion dollars he is saying that we left a debt which we haven't paid but the debt which we didn't pay translates into Kazungura Bridge his president has been boasting around I'm sure you remember he was in Livingstone saying this is a good project he even misled himself that we have constructed as if it is a project that they undertook and implemented themselves without even acknowledging that this is a project that was left by us patotic front don't try and help them with rhetoric because they manipulate rhetoric every time you challenge them what you are lying then they say no we meant a country Misaka Indecherema was very clear that we have built for you this bridge and let's move slowly for us the money we borrowed which we were beginning to restructure and how we pay back is translated in what Gojlawa which has wiped out road shedding of course it's returning because at some point these people went and started cutting deals with foreign countries and places where they needed to sell electricity but the investment in that sector is the only is the third large investment in the energy sector Mr. Banda in 1956 the second one was under unique in 1973 the only other government that has been able to make meaningful investment in the energy sector in terms of generation and distribution of power is under patotic front whether it is improved under the interstazi and also the kafioloa Gojlawa all that is not acknowledged they just come and lump in the face of the Zambian people PF borrowed they don't talk about the road network that have been able to put up they try to ridicule the airports and everything that we have been able to put up out of the money that we acquired and acknowledge that this infrastructure was necessary for us to now have a base to which the economy should begin to come up the issue of COVID is you can't blame it on UPND you can't blame it on patotic front is the situation that the whole globe was faced with we can only then sit as citizens patotic citizens to say how do we navigate in view of the fact that there is a reality of the impact of COVID if they are saying having just come in after COVID we have found difficulties what we are projecting from the time we formed as a political party's opposition then in 1997 1998 and now at the time that we are being ushered into government dynamics have changed and the realities have changed and therefore our plan can't work now we have to that's a reasonable thing to say but to suggest that they had a fantastic program is just that a problem that PF left is too huge and they have been having difficulties of it why did you aspire to get into government if you don't have the skill to navigate through the problems that you a promise you can solve within days so in this case if that is the position it means that Mr. Ankoma has come on behalf of UPND on behalf of Mr. Akande Hrema on this station to come and admit that we don't have the skill to navigate two years down the line we have not had a solution therefore will be blaming PF maybe quickly let me just respond to my brother first of all I did anchor the fact that to this stage what has made us even to resolve the debt issue is around our home grown economic recovery program we have not departed from that so I want to reaffirm to my brother that we have a home grown economic recovery program that is what you are beginning to see the benefits now the benefits in terms of the CDF you have talked about because mind you under your regime at the time that you were handing over power how many costuances he had not received the CDF many but it was the promise in the budget as power tree as 1.0 is it 1.2 million 1.6 it was selectively given to those who were aligned to their political aspirations and the many costuances went 2-3 years without receiving CDF but right now as I am talking every 3 months the ministry of finance releases ability all costuances have received CDF it has never happened and I am happy that they are not acknowledging that indeed the good things happen then when you talk about Kafiwa Gojilova record even on this program I have acknowledged there are some good things that PF did we don't dispute like MMD there are some good things that they did and I for one I get saddened when we cannot acknowledge some of the good things but there are so many other things that they did which speaks to poor judgment on the part of the PF and I will give you 2 examples 2 examples 1 they are talking about reinvestment in infrastructure asked my brother here at what cost at what cost their projects were highly inflated highly inflated and we can give an example he talks about Kafiwa Lova Gojilova can he also admit he was a cabinet minister he was sitting in cabinet that at the point that they were living in government the contractor had abandoned Kafiwa Lova Gojilova because they felt to pay a huge outstanding amount of over a billion dollars the time that they were coming to government I was sitting on the ERRB board we went to on a site visit to Kafiwa Lova Gojilova before the president went to commission it I think there were about 5 tabans if I'm not mistaken only 2 had been installed but not even commissioned and the works were abandoned the Zesco Managing Director was in record that we have mobilized internal resources to pay the contractor to finish the works so if the president goes there to commission and says we have delivered this project the president is not saying man is coming from his pocket he is saying there is ambient people under the new donor administration otherwise that was an abandoned project he talks about airports let's go to Ussaka International Airport can you tell us what was the cost envelope for that project 300 million dollars plus are you telling me that there was economic justification and the money that they spent Zimbabwe just recently commissioned an international airport I think at half of what they committed to spend to the Zemen people so my brother we don't challenge or dispute some of the projects that you did the issue that you have raised as UPMD and we raised it even with them in opposition was at what cost were you incurring of those projects now let me come to the issue of maybe before he presents can I just finish to my brother just 2 minutes I just want to talk about CDF can I just make just one comment first of all when we do a budget as UPMD in the last 2 budgets that we've done we have worked in a talk right we have worked with every commitment that you have made in the budget we have fulfilled whether it comes to human capital investment in terms of teacher, nurses, doctors defense force whatever personnel recruitment we have fulfilled when we put money in the budget for procurement of medicines we discharge that commitment so our budget is 100% performing unlike the budget which was underperforming by about 20-30% they produce this huge yellow book and only deliver 20-30% but we produce a yellow book not as huge as they used to deliver and we execute 100% that is what we call prudent management thank you did you want to add something before we move to the next item well maybe you can let's move to the next item I mean the UPMD has been accused of changing its position in that it condemned PF for removing street vendors when in opposition but today your party UPMD has actually done the same Mr. Koma defend that having come earlier when you were in opposition as a promise I would request and make an intervention since you was on the floor you see our friends in UPMD and this is just away from politics just an advice this appetite to always find an excuse there is something vivid before you as an achievement by patriotic front you say at what cost but you can't even justify because now you are bringing technicalities justify the insuasion that for example let's talk of Kazumura Bridge is this suggesting that it was at exorbitant price has he understood even how that loan was contracted and who the stakeholders that were involved especially that was done jointly with another country they were in opposition all over saying that the intended construction of the dual courage way from Lusaka to Kopa Bout costing at 1.7 billion dollars was exorbitant without looking at the face of the feature of that particular road the facilities that were going to accompany the construction of that road which were also going to improve in terms of the outlook of our towns and certain facilities that do accompany that particular road when they get into government they don't tell the Zambian people that yes when you look at the design and everything that is there and the facilities that are there is just viable to to put it at the cost that it was present you know that was expressed but because maybe they felt that we can't spend so much money on that particular road they also don't tell the Zambian people that the only way to reduce the price is to reconfigure the road in terms of size and also remove some of the things that they considered facilities that possibly can only be constructed in the future when they remove all that they come up with a basic road but costing something like $700 or something million dollars No, I can correct you it's $560 million but you can see that to come up to come to that particular price was not because they have said that no, we are going to construct the same thing at the cost of $560 million the truth of the matter is that they have reconfigured the entire scope of what was supposed to be done and that's the reality now moving to the issue of raise of street vendors maybe for once Ms. Sankoma for you the reason I even accepted to feature with you is because outside politics I want to consider you as one who has made public pronouncements as an economist and politics should not make us degenerate we have to speak to reality one of the greatest assets of political leaders is their mouth and leadership actor is about influencing people through what you communicate and therefore what we say we must put high premium on it we shouldn't begin to justify casually that when a leader makes a particular pronouncement and they abrogate we find a way to skate around to justify the reason the Zambian people are unhappy with the UP and the government is that most of the things that Ms. Haka and Hrema pronounced he has actually abrogated when it comes to the street vendors even when the circumstances are different from today our circumstances at that time if you remember when we just got into government of course he has acknowledged that both me and him were in MMD before you understand in MMD the issue of vendors was managed differently under Dr. Chiruba there was even a desk at state house that had to do with vendors so this is a historical situation under patotic front Mr. Sata remember he said I'm a friend of vendors at some point when they were decisions made by professor Kandru I think or myself as local government he made a pronouncement don't touch them to handle them myself of course he eventually got sick and things deteriorated and we lost him he didn't leave to implement what he had pronounced President Edikacha Garungu came in and a certain things were being put in place to manage that situation were affected at that time by Korela and Korela was not because people were trading in the streets Korela was because of the fact that the water table in Lusaka because of the mushrooming of and plants residential places and so on and people before Wama was established and I think given teeth to manage and regulate the usage of water with ground water otherwise Lusaka was polluted because both sanitation services were not provided effectively and to that effect I think water began to mix up and having been privileged to have been minister of water development and sanitation I can tell you that when we were hit with Korela it was inevitable that we managed the crowds because we even had to shift from having people admitted in hospitals to start having them admitted in stadiums and drastic measures needed to be taken but even with those drastic measures being taken the UPD did not support Misaka and they said if I was president I would mitigate one I would composite all those people were being removed from the streets I would not destroy their makeshift stands or things places they used to sell their merchandise he would find alternative places for them to do what to go and trade even when what we were doing was a totally unique situation unique in the sense that we are responding to a disaster in terms of having a disease like Korela that can warp out a population within days now fast forward today even with those pronouncements Misaka Indeshrema has been boasting that he is a methodical leader he is methodical how is it that these vendors in Lusaka just woke up to a root shock that their makeshift stands have been destroyed they are mentioned as for some of them have been destroyed and then we are having the minister of local government truiting around to justify that kind of action if they were methodical they should have put in place mechanism that will cause will not cause our people on the streets to be ashad into now complete not only poverty because they are already poor in complete misery because they can't even afford food today because they have been even the little capital that I had some of which invested in those makeshift structures and they mentioned because some of them their capital is as small as maybe 150 is as small as 200 is as small as 500 they live hand to mouth and we know that at least for meza no onkoma we know that because most of his career his office was in town in under finance he knows how people struggle on the streets there so they go in the morning whatever they can order from either Kamaera or somewhere they go on the streets they sell they need to profit they get in the evening that is the one they are going to buy they will eat that particular evening and live some for tomorrow and then go back again it's the same cycle so when a government becomes so reckless as to go and wipe out if they are little capital there is no justification at that particular point especially government that made pronouncement that they are going to take care of those street vendors the action so far as patotic front we against the method used to get them out of on the streets especially that the markets they are wanting to talk about if you see in Lusaka it's the market that we constructed they haven't constructed not even a toilet our UPND they have borrowed so far under their watch within 2 years over 1 billion there is no infrastructure they can point to mea can mostly tell you that the money borrowed under our watch and there is no economy that never borrows and as meza economy is to hear will tell us there is a country that never borrows every country including America borrows but when you borrow you must have something to show for now what they have borrowed by UPND there is nothing to show save for high price of minimum high price of fertilizer and now people being asha into object poverty but remove the uniform assets I have a follow up question on you what was your agenda about street vending were you going to allow them even now should you have actually won the election and what alternative solutions are you offering to the UPND with regards the removal of street vendors from the streets first of all let's not demonize street vending it exists street vending is a mod of trade Mr. Komamsha agrees with me and it happens all over the world the issue is just to get it properly organized to make sure that issues of sanitation are granted because people need to trade in cleaner environment two you have to define what constitutes street vending what are the products can you permit for people to vend and even in doing that what are the minimum standards in terms of the facility they must use do you want people to go and just pick planks somewhere and come start making what structures in town and in the end it looks messy or do you want to guide that if you are to trade these are the products on the streets that are permitted and even the local authorities able to get one kwacha two kwacha from those that are trading to be able to provide the service in this case sanitation and guarantee that people have access to clean water because that is what the culture speaks to issues of hygiene and waterpond diseases and so on and so forth let's tackle matters with principle principle here is not that vending is bad in itself it's basically just getting them organized removing them in the manner they were removed is just that people have failed to apply themselves on how best they can organize street vendors in Nusaka and even to designate there are how many streets in Nusaka there could be 3-4 streets you can say ok this street we are going to permit street vendors and even the customers in this case we the Zambian people we should know that if I want to go and buy Sarawula, Kutinayarimikuru Mumba badista organized or if I want to buy fruits I can go on freedom where there is a way they have been organized to sell fruits the issue and the answer is to get an organized way in which people can trade as vendors other than just throwing them in the streets I can tell you, it's like an example somebody was giving me yesterday that you have children and your neighbor's children may be bwana wanko mwana wanko asile rapaj and you having a meeting as parents and because they are making noise there and it's becoming a nuisance you just go and say get out I don't want you anywhere near here and then they leave but you don't even mind on where they have gone because as far as you are concerned you just need to relief yourself of that noise and the nuisance that you thought you were causing by playing out there when they go you see one day two days they don't appear as a parent you should be concerned because you may end up just having your children coming in handcuffs because they left where you were having those three to vendors that have been thrown in the compounds we don't know what is going to come from there and I can tell you it's a time bomb until we get ourselves to a point where we can organize how people live in society and I think that's where I could end I will let you respond now Mr. Noa but let me quickly remind our listeners that this is the third edition of all about the Benin issue here on the half world of five from radio on 89.9 in Lusaka and the surrounding areas remember we are also live on our partner radio stations Tuta FM in Mansa is covering this program live we are also live on Muchinga radio in Chinsali covering the rest of Muchinga province IWF FM radio in Chingola covering the rest of the Kupa Belt we are live also on SPICE FM in Kawwe covering the rest of central province and WEV FM radio in Mazabuka covering southern province let me also make mention that we are also live on Utonesu Facebook page as well as Honoribonakachinda personal Facebook page also on Falcon media we are live on that one Smart egos is carrying this one live Zambia reports Grandstone television Zambia and Citizen TV Zambia are carrying this particular program live and my guests in the studio is Mr. Rafa Onakachinda Mr. Rafa Onakachinda who is a patriotic front information and publicity person and member of the central committee and also Mr. Noel Koma an economy standard the united party national development UPND member now Mr. Nkoma the question of street vending let me just respond one or two comments from what you have said then I will go on that first of all my brother here talks about us having downsized the what to call proposal for the recycled agriculture I am privileged that I sit on the public-private partnership council of ministers and I can tell you that from the 1.3 billion which was a projected cost for this project the only things that we have removed what to call satellite hotels I think they were thinking of a hotel in Kawe they were thinking of a hotel in Kapiliposhi those two cannot justify a reduction from 1.3 billion to just under 600 million dollars they already that reduction is almost 700 million dollars I will tell you what else can cost 700 million dollars the township roads are still there they are going to be done so that is neither here nor there then lastly on the issue of the Kasukura Bridge which my brother talked about a fantastic project nobody doubts it funded by I think the help of Korea or something can you also admit that at the time that they were living in government that project had stopped why it is because they are defaulted on paying the contractor they are defaulted on paying the contractor who it had to take the Botswana president to fly here to come and meet he came to meet President Lungu before he left office he came also to meet with President HH maybe because some of these sweeping statements just to remind him as he continues on to disrupt again when you say that it had stopped I am sure the Zambian people do remember they can Google that project was complete and it was even commissioned Misaka Indeshrema commissioned the second time with the president who is not even connected in that regard except as a downstream beneficiary in a Rwanda the Rwandan president but otherwise you remember that as African Union chair President Chisekedi Botswana president including Mr. President Munangagwa commissioned together President Lungu if he doesn't know that as a fact then if possible we have to question all the submissions we are making because I think the rhetoric in UPN is quite clear I promise you that there was a default because I for one I knew one of the persons who was involved as a subcontractor of that project it had to take the new donor administration to pay the areas for the project to be completed if it was commissioned during that time by what traffic allowing to flow when the traffic start flowing commissioning of a project means that you operationalize the project so on that score I can bet with my brother from here we can never go to miss of infrastructure I can demonstrate to him that what he is saying is actually not as correct as it were now let me talk about street vendor you know one thing I feel so sad and sorry about PF is that they are proud of their record of who impoverishing zambias to the point that you created poverty never seen in the history of this country before right to the point that those people were coming as street vendors because you created the thing you were helpless to be able to control it so to you the only way out was to let them break the laws that they were swan by upholding the constitution to protect the minister of local government local government and rural development has been there clear these people were preaching the law but we have got a plan for them he said they had countless meetings there was a ministerial statement and the problem that I have here is that my brother here has sat in that parliament he knows what a ministerial statement is has he taken time to understand the ministerial statement as presented by the Honorable Minister where he made it very clear we have engaged these people he is not sat in now it has been ongoing we have a plan for them we are relocating them and it's basically you cannot at any point take pride in your people suffering there is no government whether it sort takes pride in its people suffering if I do anything I open my statement we want to do things in an orderly manner by making sure that whatever solutions or interventions we are making now they should be sustainable they should be sustainable they were doing things for political convenience because as far as PAF was concerned the mushrooming of streetvening to the extent that they never had respect for private property can you imagine Zaki look at that beautiful hotel what you call it Yuton there is Yuton there is Protya do they know how much investment those developers put into those structures Yuton alone it's an Apsa project how much does it support millions of dollars Protya, Mako Donald's project millions of dollars they had no clients they were becoming what ships to them they had no respect for private property as long as they can count the Anaki there in terms of a disorganized market to them they were counting they were not counting in law and order apart from Zanako Bank of Zambia and maybe two other banks stanchat left their building has been up for sale up to now it's how many years maybe one year, two years nobody has offered because nobody wanted to go to the CBD the property values were collapsed under their watch Zanako sorry, Indo Zambia they just left but they started looking to exit at the time that there is this whatever so to us what we are saying let us begin to do things which may be as painful as they are but they can be sustainable so that even if by this fortune PF had to come back and find a well organized and properly functioning local government let's not do things just to appease people no, we are promoting Anaki and I think UPNT did not campaign on the platform to promote Anaki I submit I'm talking of PF coming back I would like to well it's a reality that our friends must begin to live with because I think one of the reasons why I am giving the riverage for my brother to continue trying to justify their failures it's not failures just tell me which is a failure which is a failure these are not failures and the numbers don't lie numbers don't lie let him justify what he is referring to so in this case you can see that even from the submission that he is making they are prioritizing as far as they are concerned the ones who are important to them are the elite because as far as they are concerned those on the streets don't matter so they will take measures to protect those who own hotels who own these properties but I can tell you that even the shift he is referring to and trying to sneak in to justify that brutal you know brutish approach that the UPND to remove street vendors is not correct the CBD overtime at some point when possibly he was operating from Lusaka I mean the town had not expanded today we have more doted across the city of Lusaka and therefore the population of people trekking to town to go and do their transaction has reduced and it is only natural that having been a banker himself that the bank will follow where the clients are and they have been moving from town to Mandahil to Pinakomo to Woodlands Shopimo to Lewanikamo and to other places and stanchard for example they have moved somewhere around about to build their headquarters the building he is talking about was the headquarters for many years but why they moved there they have moved there because of street vendors then he is not a proper banker or economist actually the ones who you are supposed to even crop to be able to sustain your banking business the small scale business people if they are encouraged but the issue of being organized was my submission that the only thing that I failed to do is to get the vendors organized I am aganist just like patriotic front of just removing them from the streets without providing mechanisms because street vending is not a crime Mr. Banda street vending is not a crime the reason is called street vending because it exists even in America they are street vendors in UK they are street vendors how is it that today street vendors like demons who should not be tolerated in town according to Mr. Ankom and they are the ones who are chasing people from town to go to them that is the meaning my brother those who are like Mr. Ankom Bandarama and HH Bandarama nivangu na muna menda muma bankum muna muna kudisa pastini tibaja katen kuacha katwen kuacha the ones who are saving in these banks so how can a bank run away from his clients and following people who don't even do transactions every day Mr. Ankom goes to the bank possibly once in Blue Moon because in terms of day to day activities he has a mechanism through which food are bought and so on but for those people every day they are trading and every day they have to engage in terms of banks and so on and the banks make money from multiple of you transactions and I think the people who are doing transactions are the ones who are below Mr. Ankom munga isi mpf obutika no that's a narrative that you try to feed but that's a reality let's move on to one item that keeps coming before I open the phone lines and I would like this tackle I know it will probably come up follow up questions but I've seen a number of them sending that particular question in the latest call of the Development Bank of Zambia and the way forward for even human resource in this case can you come in because you have been the board chair of Development Bank of Zambia I'll be very brief because like you have said I'm no longer the board chair person so all I can say is that I will only allude to the fact that the minister has already pronounced himself the bank was basically extremely abused to the extent that those who had the charge to run this bank, my brother Heona Bunakachinda was in cabinet, I think they must have been receiving reports those who borrowed mostly political aligned and exposed persons connected to the ruling party at the time 98% felt to repay the loans that they got I think it's in public domain and when you have a situation where almost 100% of the people have borrowed felt to pay the bank cannot continue to exist so that is a long and short with what due respect that you are no longer the board chair but the fact that you at the time you were the board chair you made very significant pronouncements you painted DBZ an institution that is very important it's going to survive under my board and our intention was that we were going to revive the bank but mind you we are pointies of shareholders we only represent the shareholders and where the shareholders the government is the majority shareholder about 92% equity now to the point that the board can make its case ultimately it's a shareholder because you need to characterize the bank I think the bank was very clear the bank has remained under capitalized capital deficience for many years from 2014 when the government was in office 2014 despite the euro bonds that they got in billions the DFI which is a development bank was not capitalized our intentions as good as they were we felt because without capital it was so stressful the most difficult time for me to sit on the board as chairman where I became helpless so I can promise you we had all the good intents and another minister of finance his team the presidents had good intents but I think it was overwhelmed with the situation to the extent that the bank of Zambia being the regulator exercised its what to call supervisor reaction because ultimately it's a bank of Zambia that gives you a license to operate so it's them who can decide your fate should you bridge the license conditions so that's what I can say for now in terms of the way forward I think let the shareholder make that determination otherwise I think I can only remain grateful to the president, to the honorable minister of finance so I've given me an opportunity to preside over the affairs of the development bank thank you you want to make a comment I think the comment I can make is that I was avoiding basically myself to raise that issue because I was going to seem to be personal but it's important to ask the question because it also generally exposes the demeanor of our friends in European day until a disastrous situation boomarang in the face of the chair he was giving all of us an impression that this whole thing is buoyant we will restructure it to work and all that you don't have to worry about the bank conveniently now that it has collapsed his PF the blame game will never stop the day he is going to work in a particular situation very soon we will end up with PF being blamed for peoples either losing their I don't know how I can put it because we are blamed for everything you can't say that the people who borrowed were PF you you as a bank have a mechanism you use to get people access facilities and if those mechanisms have not been followed it means that somebody incompetent there and that is the person you are supposed to deal with you are appointee yes you are appointee over aga in the HLM and you have collapsed the bank fantastic job but all I'm saying is that the man who was in charge as finally sent to jail isn't it wait before you proceed in that regard what I'm just saying underscoring is that today we have CEC for example that from a political point of view has turned into a UPND secretariat it's actually a word machinery towards UPND cadars but we council ourselves that CEC must have its own standard even UPND cadars as ambiance some of them genuine do business and they have even possibly bankable business projects you can't be blacklisted because you belong to a political party if at all fast forward those UPND cadars that are being given manis from CEC fail to pay I don't think they are the ones you are going to first of all blame you blame the system that was supposed to be to vet because at the DBZ he can't say that all those who borrow that's being mischievous we know of people who are sponsors of UPND we know of people who are members of UPND we know even businesses that were connected even to the president himself that have gotten facilities from DBZ but conveniently here we say it was BF let's accept when things have not worked out well like we are putting it and maybe the management of the bank was not really good and I can tell you the other aspect is that the development bank of Zambia was supposed to be a facility that helps mainly in principle local business people to graduate from small scale to become large cooperative large cooperative if you like that was the principle but as it were because there is also we have always been under capture from imperialist organization and so on some of which run banks because we don't really have a local bank now I was at some point very proud when I saw that a renowned bank and the economy has started the bank which if Zambians were really patriotic we were supposed to have supported that bank so that we have our own but we know that they are operating in a very hostile environment because these foreign banks have a way in which they put postings to chalk the local upcoming banks but in Zambia we are proud to see to it that there is no bank in Asir so we end up destroying our own things DBZ can't today be discussed in the lenses of politicians patriotic front and UPND that's being reckless patriotic front members are Zambians UPND members are Zambians and if they are doing a legitimate business that business must be supported this attitude that UPND want to introduce of wanting to be selective that no because it was PF it was bad no that's not correct UPND members if they are doing a legitimate business to benefit from facilities that are around the same way that patriotic front members and everybody must also be seen as Zambians and must benefit from facilities that exist and we must promote a culture of promoting prosperity not poverty I think that is the bottom line for me can I I totally agree with my brother I think that is basically across cutting pronouncement and I think what I can pick from Mora Blackachinda he's talking about our own indigenous growth and I think he has made a very profound statement to the effect that we are failed to preserve and support that which is ours and we should stop this issue and it's correct to say this one deserves support because it's aligned to this but no the first qualification is that you are Zambian and I think Mora Blackachinda if you watch my first standard interview I agree that even political response persons who are doing legitimate and genuine business have got a business case to make should be supported devoid of any discrimination whether region or political so I think my brother that is I think leadership on your part and we should support that