 And we are live. What's up guys? And I am back, been gone for a while, was at Def Con for a week, then took a vacation with my fiance for a week and then actually I'll be gone next week for Singapore. So I won't be doing much of these, but in the media time, I got my buddy Brad Mills, once again, quick little bio on who Brad is. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's been in many different businesses, got the Bitcoin bug a couple of years ago. And ever since he's been specializing in a bunch of different trading systems and really diving deep into the whole world of crypto, we've had many different podcasts in the past. If you missed that, last one we did was Bad ICOs, which was a really good one. That one is actually shared a bunch of times. I think the one before what we do, I forget. Anyways, that one's good too. So in this one, we're actually talking about the whole dilemma in the last week or so with Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash. What is it? What's happening? People are confused. So let's talk about this. Brad, give us a four on one. Okay, the four on one. So do you want this as the libertarian Bitcoin maximalist or the objective cryptocurrency analyst? Well, let's do a little bit of both. Let's play devil's advocate. All right, well devil's advocate, I got some Bitcoin Cash. Everybody got some Bitcoin Cash if you had Bitcoin. I'm probably gonna hold on to it forever, like most of my cryptocurrency positions. Bitcoin Cash is trying to fulfill this need of the, Joseph, who's that? Not, I can't remember his last name, but he had a nice article recently. It was comparing like the Keynesians to the, Jimmy Song. Jimmy Song, yeah. So like that makes a lot of sense where the big block version of Bitcoin is trying to fulfill that transaction velocity need where you put all these micro transactions on a blockchain and that increases the value. And that's what makes, you know, that transaction load gives it the value. So I mean, yeah, that makes sense. So if you're a Keynesian, a Crypto Keynesian or a Keynesian economist, economist, then yeah, you'll probably see the value in having unlimited block size and giga blocks and having like all of the nodes be centralized and three or four big companies isn't a big deal to you because you're more of a sort of like an evolutionary profit driven technologist rather than somebody who's trying to guard against centralization and promote decentralization and promote sovereign money and secure protected wealth, which I think Bitcoin, actual Bitcoin is, right? And I struggle a lot with this, man. I get triggered so easy by people talking about Bitcoin cash as Bitcoin. Yeah. As I got in really in the early days in 2011 and I came from the libertarian viewpoint and had watched these movies talking to me about the central banking scams and fractional reserve banking. And I came in from that, like just trying to get Ron Paul elected and saw Bitcoin as the solution to central banks and debt enslavement and that's what really drew me the secure store of wealth, right? The decentralization, nobody's gonna be able to censor transactions, transactions final, you can protect your own wealth. It's a deflationary model. It's not about spending microtransactions. It's more of a protecting your wealth. And that's not what Bitcoin isn't saying, you know, we're not gonna ever be something that you can do microtransactions with or have visa level transactions per second. It's just gonna take some time because they wanna do it in a certain way with like a safer upgrade path. So the Bitcoin cash people though to play devil's advocate, they've been trying to do this for a couple of years and they're not getting anywhere and the Bitcoin core team has this certain permissions upgrade process, right? Where you gotta submit a BIP, a Bitcoin improvement protocol or proposal. And if the community doesn't support the BIP, then you don't get in, right? Yeah. So in one way it does the Bitcoin core process does like go against that permissionless thing that everybody signed up for at the beginning because you kinda gotta have permission to put your upgrades in. But I mean, that's free open source development. That's how it works. So there's a lot of devil's advocate. You can play on both sides with this. It's a tough one for me to reconcile because like even on- I think whatever if we distil it, most people are just upset with the brand steel as opposed to the actual what they're doing because unless a fair capitalism and that's the whole point I can do whatever I want. Right, and that's what I was gonna say too. Like if you zoom back, right? Just we've got Fiat money and cryptocurrency, right? The people on the Fiat side like Jamie Dimon and all these guys are saying what is Bitcoin? It doesn't make any sense. There's no value. It's not backed by anything, right? So then you zoom in and when we tell them all value is what you ascribe to it. Value is what we decide, right? There's no intrinsic value behind dollars. There's no intrinsic real value behind gold. It's just what people accept for medium exchange and store value. So if we're gonna use that explanation to describe how Bitcoin can hold value, then we kind of have to accept that for Bitcoin cash too. Because initially when they're forked away and it's like $20 billion market cap now, I'm like the old like the Fiat guys I'm like what gives that Bitcoin cash any value? That thing is nothing. It just forked from Bitcoin. It's not worth anything. And I'm realizing, well, it's kind of the same argument that people from the outside world are telling me about Bitcoin. So I've got a lot of cognitive dissonance rolling around here when talking about Bitcoin cash. So it's a tough one. I'm trying to like play devil's advocate and see it from both sides, but you're right. It's the most thing that people are finding most offensive and triggers everybody that having a Bitcoin for so long is the attempted like brand theft of saying Bitcoin cash is Bitcoin. And then it could be just semantics though. It could be just Roger Verge just playing philosopher and saying, well, Bitcoin cash is Bitcoin philosophically. But I think he's actually trying to like make Bitcoin cash Bitcoin. The funny thing though about this whole debate, especially if they're talking about hash rate and the longest chain is sometimes they feel like the miners are indebted to the network. Like they have to like obey us. At the end of the day, I'm a miner, I'm for profit. And you can't tell me what the fuck I can mine. If I want to take, if I'm, for example, 30% of the hash power Bitcoin, if I want to just leave to more of mine Monero or mine Bitcoin cash, so be it. I'm following profit. And that's why I find it funny with the debate when people are saying, oh, they stole hash power. Wouldn't you steal? Why you own the fucking miners? Who wouldn't you talking about? See, I agree with you on that point too. It's like, it's capitalism. It's a free market, right? But on the other hand, it is a bit, it's kind of a scam because Bitmain is the one that has most of that hash power and Bitmain is one that owns most of the majority of the Bitcoin cash that they've been buying up Bitcoin cash and using their hash power to support Bitcoin cash. Now, I don't, I don't mean they own most of Bitcoin cash, like 50% of it or something. I just mean like, obviously the people that forked Bitcoin cash, like Roger Ver and Calvin and Craig Wright and all these guys like McAfee. McAfee. But he says he doesn't own any Bitcoin, Bitcoin cash, like coin Ethereum, anything. He says he doesn't own anything. He's just making profits. He just owns dollars. That's what he's saying. But I don't know. Sure. Sure. Sure. Whatever he says. Sure. But yeah, like the thing about like that, that gives Bitcoin up until now that has given Bitcoin its value is that there's a sunk cost in, in the electricity and the equipment that you're using to, to solve the proof of work, right? So you've got this invested cost. So you're not incentivized to attack the network because you'd be like hurting your own value, right? Well, let me ask you this. Do you think both can coexist? I think both could coexist, but it's going to be really hard because that, that value, like, I mean, it, it's the same algorithm. So it's the same mining equipment that. Except, well, kind of the only difference Bitcoin cash has over what's a big difference is they have EDA, emergency digital adjustment. Yeah. But I mean, that's just the adjustment on the difficulty. It's the same like security algorithm, right? It's the same like ASIC machines that can mine both chains. So like, technically, there should only be one winner because that value of burnt electricity and like sunk cost of equipment and research and everything, that shouldn't be able, you shouldn't be able to just clone that infinitely. Well, Litecoin's the same thing. Any research that Bitcoin Core does automatically gets applied to Litecoin. Yeah, that's technical research. That's not like physical hardware and electricity and stuff. Like there's different, there's different machines that mine Litecoin. There's like, that's why there's usually only one cryptocurrency that has, and this is what I hold for my portfolio. I look at like the top positions for my portfolio. They don't really have an algorithm that overlaps or any sort of like anything that's like a unique or similar technology. Like there's nothing else that runs Shaw 256. There is like Namecoin. Yeah. And the funny thing that happened with Namecoin was over the weekend when the miners were like jumping from Bitcoin to Bitcoin Cash, Namecoin couldn't exist because nobody was mining it. Everybody chose to mine Bitcoin. So what they had to do was implement merge mining in order to stay alive, and which means you can mine both at the same time. Anything that has merge mining enabled is like, I'm actually sure how that works. I just know we used to merge mine different cryptocurrencies together with Bitcoin and other coins. But let me ask you this. Are they planning on, I haven't looked at the roadmap for Bitcoin Core or even Bitcoin Cash. I don't even know if Bitcoin Cash has a roadmap yet. But are they planning on actually moving consensus models or upgrading it for the fact that like only people with A6, people that can actually afford the hardware, afford the electricity cost to do this? No. So that's the whole thing that is driving Bitcoin Cash is the profit motive. If you follow Craig Wright's, and for those who don't know, Craig Wright is the guy that claimed to be Satoshi Nakamoto. He claimed to be Satoshi Nakamoto. Yeah, he claimed to be Satoshi and he got all these articles and press and became the celebrity a little bit in the crypto space. And then he decided the very last minute to pull the rug from everybody and say, oh, I can't do it. I don't want to prove it. And he fooled the lead developer at the time, Gavin Andreessen, lead Bitcoin developer into thinking that he was Satoshi Nakamoto. So it was this big thing. It was this clever marketing scheme. Either he is or he isn't. And Vitalik had a really good response to that question. Is Craig Wright Satoshi Nakamoto? I think it was a signal theory. He was talking about how the easiest way to tell if something is or isn't is if there's proof. And since he has no proof, he's not Satoshi Nakamoto. That's the simplest answer. So Craig Wright is my connection OK, by the way? It's kind of looks a little iffy. It's fine on our end. It's not 100%, but it's OK. So Craig Wright is kind of like one of the leaders of this Bitcoin cash movement. And he's one of the guys that have Enchain. And Enchain funds research and development to the large blocks, giga blocks. He funds like a Bitcoin unlimited. And he's pushing Bitcoin cash. He's anti-segwit. So he actually has this vision of data centers like we have right now, but even on a bigger, grander scale, processing and making profits from processing Bitcoin transactions. So he wants it to continue on like this. He doesn't want to change the algorithm or make it easier for poor people to get Bitcoin or anything. That's one argument that I actually stand behind for people who love Bitcoin, who've viewed it for their libertarian principles, who viewed it for economic freedom, is the people that is supposed to help. They can't financially afford to use it at the moment. Yeah, I see that argument too. And that's something that I do struggle with because I got into Bitcoin in 2011, not just for the secure your wealth thing, but also wanted to have this easy way for money to move. I wanted it to be PayPal, but owned by the people. And right now, it's not able to facilitate that need because we need to get everybody using segwit. And we need to implement Schnorr signatures and lightning network. And there's like a year and a half, two years of scaling required before we're going to be able to get to that level. Easy, minimum two years, minimum. But Bitcoin Cash is trying to say, well, we've had enough of the waiting. We're just going to fork off. And this is now Bitcoin. And let's put gambling on a blockchain. Honestly, the biggest reason why they're doing this is, I believe, because Calvin Eyer is the owner of Bowdog Poker. And he's funny. Oh, he is. I don't need that. Yeah, he's the owner of Bowdog. And he was like, whether you agree with it or not, he was sought after by the US authorities. And he had to leave Canada. I don't know the full extent of this, but it's kind of like a Kim Dot Com thing, where he was just harassed by these authorities. I don't know if he's a felon or what it is, but. No, if he's a bit, if it's in gambling, it probably has to do with taxation. He provided illegal gambling to US citizens, even though he's Canadian, the company's Canadian. And then he was persecuted for that. So he funded the patent strategy of N Chain to get all these blockchain patents. And he's best friends with Craig Wright, the fake Satoshi Nakamoto. And their big plan for a long time has been to put unlimited block size in Bitcoin so that they could do things like gambling on a blockchain, which they could not, you know, if gambling's on a blockchain, they can't shut it down. It's beyond the reach of censorship and regulation, right? Well, why on the root blockchain? Like having all these mass applications on a root blockchain is a stupid move as well. Like what about state channels or like second layer infrastructures that don't actually have to correspond with the root channel always? The whole idea of like having your whole platform on a big block, that doesn't even solve it. The block's going to get filled regardless. Yeah, like Andrea Sampsonopoulos says that if you give somebody a giga block, they'll fill it with whatever they fill it. They'll fill it. That doesn't solve it. It's not, yeah, there's never going to be a happy solution to this. At some point fees are going to go sky high because- Solution is Lightning Network state channels. Yeah, like side chains, Lightning Network. But then if you listen to Dollar Vigilante, Jeff Burwick just came out this weekend and started jumping on the Bitcoin Cash bandwagon saying like, oh, it's funded by the globalists and the block stream is owned by the Build-A-Bird Group and they just want to like centralize the settlement layers and, you know, saying all this like conspiracy theory nonsense that doesn't have anything technically to do with why he feels Bitcoin Cash is better than Bitcoin. So like if you're like one of those people and you feel that the banks have interests in these companies like Blockstream and Blockstream is trying to fund these side channels and like trying to put transactions off the main blockchain, then I guess there's some kind of like conspiracy sort of line you can follow there that gets you to- I think the big test will be, for example, right now, you have Bitcoin and for the most part, even the reason why I have Bitcoin, I view it as a hedge, digital gold. Right. Cost me three bucks to send a couple of bucks so it's infeasible for me to use it as a payment layer for anything. Right. The other day, I know it's been spam networked by whoever it was, you know, some people say Gihon but there's over a 100,000 transactions in the mem pool waiting to be confirmed. So it's ridiculous for me to even send- $700 million at one point on the weekend was- $700 million was locked up and waiting to be confirmed. Yeah. So for me, I just use it as a hedge. I don't need to move it. I buy it. I don't care how long it takes for me to buy it. I'm just sitting back and relaxing. So for me, that's how I view it currently as a second. The big test for both of these ecosystems is use case. Like speculation can only take you so far, right? There's a time limit for speculation. So Bitcoin can't be, sorry, Bitcoin cash can't be a hedge. Both parties can't be a hedge. So until I see what Bitcoin cash can really, besides the technology itself, do they actually have use case utility where I actually see user base on a daily basis using this for a specific purpose, that's gonna be an interesting use case for both ecosystems to prove itself for the next couple of years. Yeah. So if you, like that's the devil's advocate side of me. Like I kind of would like to see this experiment play out. I'd like to see Bow Dog poker put on Bitcoin cash blockchain. I'd like to see Kim.com. Well, actually I would have preferred Kim.com launch BitCash with Bitcoin, but now he's announcing on Twitter he's gonna use Bitcoin cash. So I'd like to see it though. I'd like to see all these micro transaction use cases and see what happens if this Keynesian style like velocity of money and like massive amount of transactions actually increases the value or if this Austrian school of sound money and increasing the value of your savings rather than having an easier, well not even an easier, a decentralized way to do small payments. Like Adam Back has a good, Adam Back is CEO of BlockStream. He has a good theory on all this where you gotta have some kind of distinction between your use case for money, right? Like you just said, like I don't get the reason to really need a decentralized PayPal. You know what I mean? Like the banks are gonna out compete a blockchain for low fees. And PayPal is gonna- And better customer support, better customer service. So like the big distinction that you have with Bitcoin is that it's censorship free, it's decentralized, it's gonna hold value and it's like you can't just bang down the door of one large miner if you're a government and start changing Bitcoin transactions or whatever. Like that's the idea that a lot of us got into Bitcoin for is you can protect your money, it's safe, it's decentralized, it's away from the risk of getting compensated if say they wanna start compensating everybody's Bitcoin or whatever, this can't do it. But with Bitcoin Cash, if it goes the way that they're saying it's gonna go, giga blocks, you know, like that's gonna be an enormous burden on a node to run that. You're gonna need like an insane amount of hard drive space and bandwidth. And when you start getting up into these like 100 megabox sized blocks or even 10 megabyte sized blocks, like they've got eight megabytes now, but they're never over one megabyte because nobody's using it right now. But when Bitcoin Cash has, you know, 100 megabyte in the blocks, it's gonna be pretty much a centralized server company that's processing all these transactions. You're not gonna be able to run a full node. My question though too for Bitcoin Cash is where's your dev team? How many people do they have working on the code? So they say that there's five teams, like I've seen Roger Ver present this slide where it says, you know, all the comparison between Bitcoin and B Cash and it's like, or sort of Bitcoin Cash, I don't have to be derogatory here. And he says there's five dev teams. Craig Wright says there's five dev teams. So I looked at that and I think the five dev teams are the one developer that works on Bitcoin Cash, right? I can't remember his name, but he's the one guy. And then Bitcoin XT and Bitcoin Unlimited, which is also, I'm pretty sure just Peter, can't remember his last name, it was just mainly one guy, unless I'm wrong and I'm sorry if I'm wrong on that, but I only ever see him talking about it. Parity, so they're developing on Bitcoin Cash for some reason, Parity's whatever, like Parity wallet, it's the Ethereum wallet that keeps getting hacked and losing all their money. And before- Actually, Roger Ver was at the conference in Mexico. Yeah, I can't remember what the fifth one is, but he says they say that there's five teams and I don't know, Enchain, Enchain is the next one, that's what Craig Wright's company. Well, I think Bitcoin also has something interesting happening, I'm kind of excited, we'll see how that rolls out, but I wanna see how Rootstock plays out for the second layer multi-chain. Yeah, and the funny thing too is that the Bitcoin Cash people are saying that they're not opposed to the second layer solutions, they're gonna maybe add something like Segwit and something like Lightning Network or Lightning Network work itself or Rootstock. So the reason why Segwit was so important was because it was a way to allow Rootstock, like smart contract-like transactions that happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, it solved the problem of malleability. And there's other probably more elegant solutions but they require a hard fork and everybody wanted to avoid a hard fork. So Segregated Witness was the safest and best way to allow these smart contract-like transactions to happen on the Bitcoin blockchain with a backwards compatible format that wouldn't require somebody who had a 2012 wallet to do something, they wouldn't have to split their coins or whatever. They would just instantly connect to the main chain. So the whole thing about Segwit, there's this propaganda campaign going on with Bitcoin Cash People saying that it's Bitcoin Segwit. It's not really Satoshi's vision. Like Satoshi was some kind of like God or something like that. I know, it's almost like this whole Messiah complex or like it's this way or the time. It's like, give me a break. Things evolve, like fuck. Yeah, it's like it's one guy or one woman or like a group of men and women or like a group of people or even the NSA, whatever it was, they use the Bitcoin white paper and Satoshi's vision as if it's some kind of like religious cult, which is really creepy. And I noticed a lot of new people are getting so confused by Bitcoin Cash because a lot of the personalities are so like magnanimous and like entertaining to watch. And like you got John McAfee and you got like Roger Verhoes viciously crying about like things on his interviews is very passionate when he speaks. And then you got Craig Wright, who pretends to be Satoshi Nakamoto and he's a really smart guy. He's got like seven PhDs and like he's constantly tweeting nonstop and gathering a lot of followers. And then you get like Calvin Iyer who's kind of in the background. But when he posts it's like him on a boat with like eight women and like, it's this personality cult everybody getting sucked into all these new people. And like we saw on the weekend what happened like people buying Bitcoin Cash at the top like $2,500 and then just instantly lose 50% of their savings or whatever, you know, they're well. I think it also depends on how you view this space and how you entering the space. Like let's say you're entering the space to make a profit. Well, it's no different than any asset class. You need to allocate your assets and move them around. So you view everything in a neutral like there's a great saying. What's the saying? A smart person sees red or green and was a dumb person sees, oh fuck, how does it go? I mean a dumb person sees color, a wise person is color blind, right? So there's like the whole idea is non-judgmental, non-bias, cognitive biases based on like your own fundamental emotional behaviors or your own like say ideological views. So if someone's coming into this ecosystem purely for profit then it really doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Cash fork or whatever it's just allocating every single month or whatever week, day to day, whatever strategy you have you allocate to just make profit, period. I struggle with that too, like because I'm up a lot in dollar terms this year, I'm like 40,000% up, right? And I guess, I mean like I never got into this really to like make that kind of money. It wasn't that that wasn't the reason why I got interested in Bitcoin and why like I got so passionate about Bitcoin. I get passionate about Pokemon Go. Like I get passionate about any new technology or fun thing or like interesting thing and it's not always about making money. It just so happens that this is the one thing where you can be an early adopter of this technology and you can actually like your savings and your wealth can increase from adopting it too. So people get extremely passionate about this versus other things because their wealth is on the line as well. Of course it is, man, totally. No difference in stocks when people go talk about stocks but people talk about anything where they have a financial incentives and financial risk rewards. Like I feel like this feels, it harkens back to last fall when it was like the Hillary versus Trump. Like when you're talking about Bitcoin cash versus Bitcoin, it's even worse than Ethereum versus Bitcoin was. Like people were getting salty that Ethereum was rising. Of course, because at least in that aspect it's two different, one is two different brand names and two different technologies completely. Totally different use cases, right? But it's like this one is sort of like shattering the fragment of reality for Bitcoiners if they're trying to say that it's Bitcoin and if they win and if they can confuse the hell out of people and actually like make people think it's Bitcoin and because they own bitcoin.com, btc.com, it's bit main, like the main ASIC manufacturer and they only take Bitcoin cash now. It's like all these celebrities that Roger Verre influences now are starting to, they're just not that technical that they're not in the space that deep but he's made them a lot of money owning Bitcoin. Roger Verre goes on podcasts now and like sells the listeners on the gains that you could have made in Bitcoin and the gains that they've made in Bitcoin. And then when people ask Katie buy Bitcoin he says go to Bitcoin.com get the real Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin cash. It's just a very scammy like underhanded slimy way to do this. Bro, that's marketing for you, no different than any other companies in their things. I try not like, I know, I got a lot of friends that are friends with Roger Verre. So I try my best not to like, I've never met the guy in person, I assume they're conferences and stuff. I'm sure I'll meet him one day, but I mean, I just try to put myself in his shoes. Like he's incredibly wealthy at this point. He's also probably a fundamentalist. He's not doing this for money. Like he's probably at least a billionaire if not a multi-billionaire because of all the Bitcoin he owns. He invested in Z-cash really early on. Ethereum. Ethereum and Arrow like, he's invested in a lot of these currencies. He's invested in all the big startups like, he's not doing this for money, I don't think. I think it's, it's like you said fundamentalism, it's a philosophical viewpoint. Which I'm totally fine with. Like I didn't date at the best party win. Like, okay, fine, it's a free market. You got this camp, that camp, let's go. Let's see who does it the best. Yeah, I think I agree with that as well. There's like, there's the logic there. Like this is capitalism. This is free market. This is not like, you can just shut down Bitcoin cash because it makes me feel icky. But the way that they're going about confusing everybody into thinking it's actually Bitcoin and like rewriting history saying that like, Segwit actually forked off the Bitcoin chain and now Bitcoin cash is the true Bitcoin. Like that's just technically wrong. And it's confusing people. It's a purposeful like propaganda campaign. He's become like the Rupert Murdoch of Bitcoin. He owns all these massive media like. But I think also the one of the X factor is once institutional money comes in, the question is where they go. Like if I'm an institutional investor, I'm most likely. But they're going to Bitcoin. They're not going to Bitcoin cash. So the celebrities and the influencers and stuff like that, like Jeff Burwick, Dollar Vigilante, all these podcast guys, like I'm starting to hear them talk about Bitcoin cash because they know Roger and Roger's kind of made the money, right? But sovereign wealth funds and like endowment funds and like university funds and stuff, like they're going into Bitcoin. They're not going to Bitcoin cash because Bitcoin. Especially once like an ETF is approved anywhere, like a legitimate ETF in North America and they have direct access from the brokerage with one click on the website. It's going to Bitcoin. Yeah, it's going to Bitcoin. And that doesn't mean that Bitcoin cash is not going to $10,000 too. It just means that the smart money right now, like the old money I guess we'll say is like going to move into an asset class that is more sensible and like established and isn't, you know, it's more logical to go into Bitcoin than it is to go into any altcoin. Because the liquidity is there, Bitcoin is Bitcoin. And like everybody accepts Bitcoin in terms of actually being Bitcoin. So they can confuse new users and they can get the celebrities and influencers in and stuff and have this grassroots sort of movement to sort of like try to spur this feeling of like, look, this is where Bitcoin was four years ago. You can get in now while it's cheap. It's what I feel like everybody that's getting into it for is doing. Yeah. Like they missed Bitcoin. They don't want to buy it at $7,000. So they're like, oh, I can get Bitcoin at $1,200. Hell yeah, I can get, I'll get, this is Bitcoin. Bitcoin cash is Bitcoin. It only cost me $1,200. This is Bitcoin. Yeah. Everybody's getting suckered in. Rather than just them trying to be honest and say like, this is a version of Bitcoin that we forked away from. And we want to try this new vision of larger blocks and putting Bow Dog on the blockchain and putting all these micro transactions on a blockchain. And yes, the servers will be centralized, but, you know, that's not what our use case is. We're not Bitcoin, we're Bitcoin cash. If they did that, it wouldn't be as bad and people will probably accept it more. And I, you know, I wouldn't feel bad about holding my Bitcoin cash at that point because I do want to see that experiment work out. But the way that it's going to be exciting, I think one of the issues on both ends and even Bitcoin Core was talking about, this is lack of actual developers in the space for both parties. There's not enough people learning C++, even starting, and we're actually working on bringing out a full curriculum for Bitcoin developers on block geeks. Might be rolling in February. At the top or bottom, like learning C++, the whole architectural, everything, the whole nine yards. Super excited about that. How do you guys see the demand? Like there must be a massive demand for... Yeah, we get pitched a lot for Bitcoin developers. So we've accepted the challenge and we have one of our in-house blockchain engineers building up the curriculum right now. That must be a really good field for new, like young coders to sort of choose. Like do I want to be like a Bitcoin developer and Ethereum solidity developer? Do I want to be like an artificial intelligence, deep learning machine learning guy? Like there's so many options right now. I think if you get into the blockchain space, it's wise that you learn them all. Yeah. It gives you a lot of insight to how other platforms are designed. So learning a little bit about C++ and learning the Bitcoin architectural design layers and then learning about Ethereum and maybe learning about the other ones out there, such as even like Hyperledger, even though they have a crypto and then doing like cross-pollination of the ideas and the systems that we learned really will help you out to become a good full stack. The one thing I saw too out of this whole Segwit 2x debacle that it is promising is like, I was really scared that Segwit 2x was going to sort of fork Bitcoin, a fragment Bitcoin. And you know, my theory on the whole think what happened on the weekend was that they were going to do this when Segwit 2x happened. And what did happen was coincidentally when all this price action started happening on Bitthumb, the zero fee exchange where you can do wash trading, coincidentally the difficulty adjusted on both Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin. So Bitcoin Cash had the favorable difficulty and 60% of the total hash power moved to Bitcoin Cash, which slowed down transactions, created this massive transaction backlog of 120,000 transactions stuck in the mem pool on Bitcoin. And then also like these celebrities started coming out saying Bitcoin Cash is Bitcoin and like Craig Wright said Bitcoin Cash going to a million dollars, buy Bitcoin Cash. Like they all started saying they're buying it. Roger said in an interview and he tweeted that he sold his Bitcoin for Bitcoin Cash in theory. I'm like, it was a pretty coordinated attack. And I mean, I think it's an attack because it was coordinated. Like it's not an attack that you, it's sure it's an attack. It's an attack on. I wanna say it's a, I would say it's a, it can be like a takeover, no different than if you and I wanna corner the market. There's many case examples according to the market or you and I wanna corner a stock where we manipulate the stock. It's in the great area of legal, in crypto world there's no such thing. There's no regulation, right? But it happens all the time in other markets. Well, a lot of people's like, Ryan Charles has a YouTube thing. And it's funny because if you're on that side like the Bitcoin Cash side, you'll say it's not an attack. But it's funny because they say it's an attack and then the next sentence is it's not an attack. So it is an attack and it's a coordinated attack. And it was like, you know, obviously it was not, it was meant to decrease the value of Bitcoin and increase the value of Bitcoin Cash and slow down the Bitcoin blockchain and highlight the problem of having these limited block size to make the bigger block size sound better. But anyway, segue 2X, if that was gonna happen, that would have been the time that they were gonna strike this, you know, this attack where Roger sells us coins and the Bitcoin Cash guys sell their coins and then start buying Bitcoin Cash. But thank God it didn't happen because if we had to deal with what was going on the weekend plus a fragmentation of the Bitcoin community between two megabyte blocks and one megabyte blocks and all the CEOs of these big Bitcoin companies being looked at as villains, like that would have been terrible and I think they would have done a lot more damage. But the good thing that came out of this was the segue 2X guys called it off and thankfully they did because Bitcoin would have been so much more weaker during that fork for Bitcoin Cash's attack to happen because what they would have done was taken the hash power, split it between both chains. Difficulty would have been higher on Bitcoin and Bitcoin 2X than it was on Bitcoin Cash. After the fork, they would have moved all the hash power to Bitcoin Cash and then because the hash power would be split between segue 2X and Bitcoin, it would have solved the chain. So we would have been like three months before a difficulty adjustment happened on Bitcoin and Bitcoin segue 2X and we would have seen like three hour blocks like the transaction backlog wouldn't have got cleared for months. So Bitcoin Cash would have had a much bigger position there. So thank you to all the NYA signatories for calling that shit off because that would have been terrible if they had have done this on the day of the fork. And the good thing that came out of it going back to the developer conversation was like now we're starting to see companies that were complaining about the Hong Kong agreement not being kept in segue 2X not being adopted. They're starting to hire Bitcoin developers. So these guys, these are like some of the biggest companies in the ecosystem like they benefit the most from Bitcoin and they didn't have any Bitcoin developers. So now you're seeing job postings go up for these big companies to hire Bitcoin developers. So it looks like your course is gonna be just on time. It's on time brother. Coming out, coming out soon. Cool. So I think we'll wrap it up over there. So what do you think we'll be by the end of the year for everything? What's your outtake? End of the year? Yeah, Christmas time. Well, we might as well talk about the price then of Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash since we've been talking about it so much. Yeah. There's two things happening that one for each that's pretty major events. There's Bitcoin is having the CME futures launch for trading in December or by December. So it could even happen in November which is gonna be an influx of money for Bitcoin. You know, Wall Street, Wall Street's coming in. Mike Novogratz has been saying for a while that the herd is coming, right? Like you can hear the footsteps of the herd into Bitcoin. And he's, Mike Novogratz got really wealthy this year. He made a lot of money on Ethereum. He placed a big bet on Ethereum. He also owns a lot of Bitcoin. And now he owns Galaxy which is a fund that invests in cryptocurrencies. He bought $20 million worth of Bitcoin on this dip this weekend. And he knows, like he's very plugged into the space. He knows the money's coming into Bitcoin. So when the futures trading launches it's gonna be an interesting thing. Like we could get shorted, you know? We could get shorted. I think shorting is gonna be big. Yeah. Or everybody could go long to get their position to sort of like have their... Who was it? The announcer, SME, they're coming in. The CME. CME, sorry. LedgerX is another one that has Bitcoin derivative trading as well. I think it's derivative trading. But it's LedgerX and CME are the two big ones. So what do you think global shorting's gonna have due to the actual price? I don't know because they've also got these like volatility stops on Bitcoin market. So if we ever go like, I think it's 7% to stop for an hour or some sort of time. And then if we go to like 14% they just sit stops for the day. So I mean, we have 14% swings in crypto like daily. So I think when Bitcoin moved up today, like a lot of the altcoins in Monero, Litecoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash, like a lot of them dropped 15% because when Bitcoin, like that's the sort of fractal pattern right now when Bitcoin takes off or run everything else drops most. Most, yeah. So it could go either way. It could go, we could go to 10,000 by January 1st or we could drop to say 4,500 or even lower. I got buys placed at 49.50. We got as low as 5,500 on the weekend. I didn't quite get my buys filled on Bitcoin but I sold a lot of Bitcoin Cash around 6,500. And I'm gonna buy my Bitcoin Cash back. If Bitcoin Cash goes to 500, I'm gonna buy it back because I do think that there is an interesting use case for what Roger's doing. They got a lot of money. Roger and Craig and Calvin and all these guys, they have a shitload of money and they're very passionate about Bitcoin Cash. It's like a religion at this point. So they're not- I've been saying this from day one, old crypto's religion. Yeah, it is. You have been calling that, right? Like you're saying that every major crypto needs like a Jesus figure, right? Like Vitalik is Ethereum's Jesus. And now, you know, shitcoin Jesus is Roger Ver is Bitcoin Cash Jesus. But he is that kind of figurehead that would spur followers and like loyalty and you know, falling in line and Craig pretending to be Satoshi, whether he is or isn't, I'm pretty sure he isn't. Jehan, the biggest like mining ASIC manufacturer. Like these guys are like a super trifecta of personality. So Bitcoin Cash is not going away. I think it's gonna like fall back down to like maybe 500 bucks until coin and like I said, there's two big events happening. The next big event for Bitcoin Cash is when Coinbase releases their coins. Cause they still haven't released their coins. Like 500,000 Bitcoin to get released. Now, I think that what's gonna happen with those coins is they're gonna get dumped because people want their Bitcoin. Oh, talking about, sorry to pause you there. Did you hear about Square yesterday? Yeah, Square. That's pretty, pretty awesome. Fucking drive a lot of new users. Yeah. And Square is like, you know, they were, Jack was asked, it's Jack Dorsey, right? Jack Dorsey, yeah, same with Twitter. Someone asked him why, why put Bitcoin on, right? And he said that most of his users have been begging him to be able to buy Bitcoin as an investment to hold it long to sort of put some savings into it. Yep. They haven't been asking to buy Bitcoin so they can spend it at Starbucks. Nope. Right? Like that's the Austrian economics sort of coming through there to show that the biggest use case for Bitcoin and cryptocurrency right now is a store of wealth. So we'll see how that sort of a crypto Keynesianism Bitcoin cash works. I think it will work eventually, but Bitcoin cash is gonna get, I think suppressed back down to like $500 until Coinbase releases the coins. Because think about it, if you're this big Chinese miner and you've been made fun of and trolled by these core supporters as you like to think for years and maybe you've got a blank check from the Chinese government. Maybe you don't. That's a little conspiratorial on my end. I think there's something there, but... I think the price is gonna bottom out. This is such an artificial price. Why would you pump Bitcoin cash to $10,000 if there's 500,000 coins sitting at Coinbase to get these core supporters rich? Like you're gonna wait until it, you're gonna shake them out, right? Bitmex just announced, they're one of the biggest exchanges. They're gonna sell their Bitcoin cash for Bitcoin. Coinbase is gonna release the users that don't like Bitcoin cash, which is the majority of them, are gonna sell the Bitcoin cash, probably gonna be around 500 bucks. And then after that point, I think that's when they're gonna do phase three of this big pump and put it over the price of Bitcoin. They're gonna try. Unless Bitcoin's at like $100,000 a coin at that time, I don't think it's gonna happen in the next few months, but... No, man. I do recommend that people, even though I don't like Bitcoin cash, the way that they're marketing and stealing users and claiming to be Bitcoin, I do recommend you hold on to it because eventually, Roger's whole mission now is Bitcoin cash. And bitcoin.com is like going full Bitcoin cash. So it has to pump or else he's a laughing stock and it's his pride, it's his personality. It's like they're all in on this. So hold your Bitcoin cash because it's gonna get pumped. I mean, or sell it now and buy it back lower, but that's not, I just wanna do that. You should hold it. Yeah. Hottler. All right, bro. Let's wrap it up there. What are you gonna do with your Bitcoin cash? Bro, I'm a long-term investment holder. I don't do nothing. I don't move nothing. I just chill, I forget about it and I'll see you in 10 years. Yeah, that's pretty well. Or I just have you manage my money because I don't do, I'm too busy building businesses. I'll hold your cash for you. Yeah, I'll hold my cash. All right, man. Do you cover everything? Is there anything else to talk about? I don't know. We covered pretty much everything. I'm actually having Jimmy Song on next week. I'll talk to him more about this in technical detail. Yeah, so we'll cover everything and we should have a round three or no, this will make round four. Another podcast soon. Sounds good. All right, bro, talk to you soon. All right, later, man. Yeah, peace.