 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and dear friends. I, Dr. Aniruddha Babar, your host for today's webinar. We're going to be organizing my webinar series. Welcome to all. Today is a special day for us because we have a special guest with us and that is Julia Francis Ribeiro, fondly known as Ribeiro Sahib in the Police Circle of Maharashtra. Julia Francis Ribeiro born on May 5, 1929 in Mumbai and graduated in Commerce and Law from Bombay University. He joined the Indian Police Service in 1953 and rose to be the Commissioner of Police in Mumbai from February 1982 to May 1985. Later he served in quick succession as Director General, Center Reserve Police, Director General of Police, Gujarat, Special Secretary to the Government of India's Home Ministry, Director General of Police, Punjab and finally advisor to the Governor of Punjab. Besides other awards, he is the recipient of the Padma Bhushan in 1987. Post retirement, Sir was appointed Ambassador to Romania where he served for four years from 1989 to 1993. Sir also runs two NGOs, the Mohalla Committee Movement Trust that is MCMT for communal harmony in the city of Mumbai and the Public Concern of Governance Trust, PCGT for good governance to fight corruption also in Mumbai city. We are really privileged to have Sir to speak on the very interesting topic and that is depoliticizing the police. Considering the today's scenario and the political context, this topic is very important. Not only for the democratic fabric of this country but also its future. Sir, on behalf of Tetsuo College and Tetsuo.gov's webinar committee, I welcome you and request you to take a charge of this virtual stage and please begin with your presentation. Thank you Sir. Over to you Sir. Thank you Dr. Babar. It's a very important topic I agree and I'm very happy that people seem to be getting interested in it now. I've been trying to get the public interested in this topic, writing about it but nobody seems to bother. They don't understand what police reforms mean for instance. They think it means that the police should become more amenable to the public that they should be polite and they should talk. Well, all that is true but that depends upon the leadership of the police. The leader can always ensure that that is done but when we talk about police reforms, it means depoliticizing the police because if the police act according to what the party in power wants and not according to the law of the country then the police is not doing the job that it had been set up to do. The police is a very important arm of the government. It is its most visible arm and people more or less understand that this is government. This is the representative of government. There are two big government agencies in the city of Mumbai for instance. The big city, the metropolis which is one of them is the police and the other is the municipality headed by municipal commissioner who usually is from the IAS. So you have these two who really matter to the ordinary person. Now what is politicization? How is the police politicized? It is politicized by the misuse of the power of appointments and transfers. This is the one line answer to the question of how the police gets politicized. Now this power of appointments and transfers as you know even in Nagaland, vests with the state government and when you talk about the state government there are two ministers who are involved. What is of course the chief minister to whom every important decision goes and then there is the home minister who is in charge of the department. Now if these two gentlemen get together or if there is one person, for example in Bihar today, Nitish Kumar has in charge of the home department also. This used to happen even in Maharashtra. Usually the chief minister used to take charge of the ministry of home and that is how it is not there today in Maharashtra because another party it's a three party government and the NCP holds the portfolio of home. So normally you have two but very often just one that is the chief minister. Whoever is in charge of home is the person who decides whom to post and these are the postings at the higher level. You see at the level of the DGP, the level of commissioner of police, the letter of superintendent of police, IPS officers, even an ASP, if it's ASP then he is posted by the government. But anything below that all the SDPOs in charge of the subdivisions they are mostly deputy superintendents of police and inspectors they are posted by the department like the DGP or the commissioner or the SPs. Now these are the cutting level jobs, the jobs which are in the police station, the man in charge of the police station, the SHO, he is more important to the ordinary politician on the ground because he is at the cutting edge. He takes all the decisions at the police station level and he can do a lot of harm or he can do a lot of good to the political party. But he is supposed to actually go after the criminal who commits an offence that we will all understand and not involve somebody who is not committed an offence. This is what he is supposed to do. The other day I wrote a letter to the police commissioner of Delhi telling him that his investigation of his officers into the northeast, Delhi northeast riots is flawed and that he should ensure that he is wrote to the constitution and to the law is upheld. That they should see who are the people really who are responsible for the riots. But he spoke to me immediately on the phone. He also wrote to me later. But I was not in really interest, moved by what he told me because I know there are certain things he cannot do. Why can't he do it? He cannot do it because the government in power puts a lot of pressure. And this is not one government. Any party government that is in power puts this pressure. That because they want to continue in power and they also want to give favors to people who support them. And the people who support them say we want this man as the SHO. Then they say yes, he should be the SHO. But the power is with the DGP or with the SP in fact. So then they write to the DGP or the SP and they bring pressure on him to appoint that person. Now how much can the DGP and the SP stop this? I mean to prevent this from happening. How much can they oppose this kind of pressure? And if they can ward off that pressure, I think that is the test of there being good police officers. Now I joined this police force in 1953 straight from college and I went to Mount Abu for my training. Then I was posted in different districts, Maharashtra and Gujarat because that time we were one state. And then later on I rose up in the ranks and went up to commissioner of police and I've got a lot of experience of this. And my experience showed me that in 1953 when I joined there were not the people who were in power. That is there were freedom fighters like Mr. Muraji Desai who was the chief minister at that time. They never interfered in postings. They allowed you to be the head of the department. That is the men under you would report to you and would respect you and look up to you. And you had to be straight and honest and also you had to be a good leader. And if you were a good leader you delivered the goods. Now if there were some in sub inspector in charge of a police station or inspector who was not doing his job as per law and as per his conscience and he was just doing something wrong. I mean making the limits of good behavior. It is the politician who was elected by the people who would bring this to the notice of the SP and even to the DGP's attention or to the DIG's attention and then a whole system of putting that right or transferring that man or disciplining him would rest with the police officer. Now this is not happening today. I'll tell you the other day I got a lot. I've retired long ago. I'm now 91 years old. Before that when I was and I was in service till I was 60 and then I got a complaint from people because I belong to Bombay. I'm born here and I know a lot of my classmates and others. People who have worked with me, people who have studied with me. So they came and told me about a certain inspector in charge of a police station. So and there is what they told me and many of them told me, many of them separately told me that he was really playing havoc. So I phoned the police commissioner who was a very good man incidentally and I told him this is what I learned and he said you are right. So I said you are saying that I'm right but why do you allow this man to continue to play havoc? So then he told me I have written to the government. I said what? Police commissioner cannot take action against a man who is playing havoc. You cannot even shift him from there and he said no, I have to go to the government and because some rule that the government has made saying that I have the government will decide these complaints. Now this is ridiculous. That means you are making the police force into a non-existent body without any teeth. Just imagine if there is war and if the government the defence minister or somebody down the line decides which which journal should command which battalion. I mean we will lose all, we will lose battles, we will lose the war. Brigadier Rajparovit will tell you that. Okay, it's got to be commanded by his own hierarchy. But here we have now total confusion and the police force which should look up to their own bosses look up to the person in Mantrala, to the minister or even to the small babus who are working in there. So even policemen, ordinary constables who should come in orderly room and plead their cases, they go to the Mantrala, you will find so many of them hanging around in uniform. Now this is not good governance. This is what is going to cause all the trouble and is causing all the trouble. The people must understand that. People must understand that unless operational independence is given to the police officers then they can be held accountable. But if the people in Mantrala and the babus and the bureaucracy decide this posting because of all this kind of aberrations in the system then you are going to have complete confusion and it is not good for administration or for governance. So this is, now when I joined service the government used to appoint all IPS officers even ASP though I was an ASP at holding charge of a subdivision the government used to tell me where to be, where I should work. Whereas otherwise the device to hold charge of the subdivision would be appointed by the DGP and the government never interfered and for postings of commissioners and SPs and other ranks DIGs etc., it is the DG, at that time there were no DG the IG would make his recommendation to the home department home secretary would put it up to the minister and the minister normally just passed everything. Once in a while they would make a change when they knew that that person was not behaving properly that is all that they did otherwise they just went by what the DGP is. But today the government just changes almost all the recommendations of the DG. The DG becomes almost a non-entity everybody down the line knows it so you have really weakened the post of the DGA and the man who should be looking up, you should be looking up too the whole department should look up to him and if he is a good man honest man, if he is a efficient man and a man with a conscience I think that things will improve considerably. Then how do you appoint such people? Now because one person that is the home minister or the chief minister whoever is in charge of home if he decides who should be the DG and who should be the commissioner of police of Mumbai a very important position then they do it in their whims and they do it looking at their own their own interests that is who will listen to us who will do what we want and the whole problem is the reason because even senior IPS officers now senior IPS officers are blobbing for their position they want this position, they want that important position for different reasons some for corrupt motives some because they want to feel important some because of their children's education there are different reasons but they go and plead with the politicians once you plead and get the posting after the blessings of the politicians in power then you have lost your soul you will have to return the favor, you will have to do what they want and I have seen this happening many times and you one young officer who lobbied, lobbied, he even sent and he became the commissioner of police and very soon he used to get the letters from the mantrala to appoint so and so, appoint so and so to the police station that is where they are interested the political class is interested in the in the cutting edge and they wanted, they want cases to be to be decided according to their whims or according to their interest and this is what is happening today so there is no rule of law as such because the police is supposed to investigate cases according to the truth, according to what the facts according to the law, according to the constitution but do they do it, they do it in ordinary cases and then they also play havoc with the poor people who are the perpetrators of the crime, they remain in prison for long and sometimes for no reason for just for wrong periods which is a very big injustice but the people who should be there they often get out you know that, now they just go according to who is a favorite or who is very close to the person in power, now you have seen this case that happened recently about Sushant Singh Rajput, it was just an actor who was a good actor he was well received by the by the receptive public but he was probably bipolar and then he committed suicide, now he had a girlfriend and that happens with many people and she tried to regulate his drug use and things like that but finally what happened was that there was a rumor that a gentleman in the minister in the government, a young minister was friendly with him or he went for his parties whether it was true or not, was not established finally but probably the government at the center felt that look, here is an opportunity to bring down that government, now because of that to make a whole case of this and whether it had any effect on the Bihar, going to have effect on the Bihar election nobody could say but certainly did not finally nobody bothered about it, no even the Rajputs did not bother about it and yet that poor girl was hounded by the TV channel, I have seen it myself, the way they went after her, it was very very unfair and it really hurt you, hurt your conscience to see what was happening, now when finally that they tried to get even with the gentleman and arrested him, I don't think that it was a correct arrest, it was not because there was no offence made out, he had not paid his bills not paying his bills is not something which you will say will cause somebody to take his own life but they made it out that way and I don't think even if somebody does that, that takes his own life because he has not been paid, it doesn't amount to abetment to suicide, so it was a wrong case, though I think the person was put behind bars where he legitimately belonged but for a wrong case, so that, but that, but he managed to get an early hearing in the Supreme Court, whether people like Father Stan Swami just who probably does not have anything to do with Bima Koregaon which is in Pune district of Maharashtra, he is there trying to get the government to allow him to use some help to have his, to drink water because he's got Parkinson's disease, so these are all injustices that happen because the authorities are so overwhelmed by the people in power that they're doing whatever they want and that is what is called politicization and this politicization is playing drugs and drinks with the system and governance is going through the dogs, we don't have real good governance because of this and I think I don't say that it is only with this particular government other parties also had done it in the past but they were little careful I think, I have gone through that and I have seen that they would listen if they, if you were very firm about it but now nobody wants to be firm because they say it's a very strong leader and we don't want to cross it, so this is what is happening, so these are some of the problems that the police faces and the public must know that, the public always blames the police for saying that they are very corrupt, they are very unfair, they are unjust and that they don't talk to us properly, they behave like masters whereas actually they are servants of the people but then they must understand how the system works and how these policemen behave in this manner because they have been asked to do things which they are not supposed to do, they are not supposed to bring innocent people and put them in jail and they are not supposed to allow offenders to get off but that is what they have been doing and that is they are doing it because of the politicization that has set in, so this must be understood by the public, now the, the Supreme Court had in Prakash Singh's judgement in that case they had said that there should be a, a different method of selecting the top officers that that, only one home minister should not do that the home minister should have the leader of the opposition also on the, in the committee and one judge of the serving judge and that is the three of them sitting down should, should decide as to who should be in that particular position and that person should be not only honest I mean financially honest but also he should be competent to carry out those duties and he should, he should be in place for two years and no transfer so that he doesn't have to look over his shoulders and decide whether he should do the job that he being asked to do by the minister, he won't do it if he knows that he cannot be shifted, the problem is he knows that he will be shifted if he doesn't do it and that is why he does it, so this is how the system works and the supreme court has understood that and had ordered but it has not been implemented because no political party of, no party at all, not a single party wants this done, you know I was, I was appointed as chairman of a small committee to see why it was not implemented, this was Mr. Adwani of the first BJP government of Mr. Vajpayee he had appointed me and I went to all the states and I met all the chief ministers and all the chief ministers were very reluctant to hand over this power to a committee where the opposition leader and the judge would also be there, they wanted to decide that themselves because they want to use that office to get the police which is their main interest to do these kind of things which are not right, so we were not able to convince them but if we also talk to the opposition leaders and suppose there's an opposition leader say from the congress party in West Bengal, I go and meet Mr. Jyoti Basu and then his opposition leader, some congress leader and he says yes yes we must do it but the congress party in some other state when I go to Maharashtra and the congress party is there in power, they say no no no we can't do that, we can't give a power in this way and they don't want to do what the supreme court has ordered, so the supreme court when it was brought to their notice there is a clear rejection of your judgment then it appoints one judge, a retired judge called Thomas, he goes around and he also finds that this is what is happening but still nothing has happened and the same thing goes on, so it's a very difficult proposition so my own view is there's no point asking for these reforms when no government wants to do it, what has to be done is that you educate the public and we are doing it in Mumbai, my own NGO is doing it by going to the colleges, at least the young people should know and if the governments know the parties in power they are only interested in votes, if they find that they are going to lose all these votes because they are not depoliticizing the police, it's only then that this reforms will come, now you know if you see the history of the US, New York police for instance, there was what they called Tammany Hall where the Democratic Party headquarters in New York used to be closed and all police, even the constables would go and to Tammany Hall and get the votes that was in the 19th century, after three years now, the public has become so conscious and say things in England, you know in England recently I read when Riza May was, before she became Prime Minister I think she was in charge of home, there was a lady in charge of home and she thought that she had the power and she want and there was some emergency, so she issued an order telling all the police men who are on leave to return to duty immediately and do you know the chief of police, they have a committee that immediately protested, they told her this is a minister, this is not your prerogative power, you can't do it, it's an hour we can do that, not you and who will do that and who will tell such a thing to the politicians here in India, nobody dares to do it because they know they will be transferred out, so this is how the politicization of the police continues and unless the public is totally aware of how the police politicize, why they do things which are wrong they will not understand that this is what should be corrected and that correction can only come if they put enough pressure on the political class to ensure that politicization of the police is stopped, it is very important to depoliticize because the operational independence must be there with the leaders of the police, if the leader of the police fails there should be a method by which he can be removed if he is incompetent or if he has become corrupt because there is a way which has been prescribed in the police reforms of the police and even Solisaurabji in his model police act, he has also mentioned that and that these people should go to the same committee to have the person removed, otherwise he remains there for two years, he doesn't have to bother about what will happen to him because he has reached that position and the other person cannot transfer him out like he does today. Today I had a very unfortunate this in Maharashtra, my own state I keep a very close, sharp look at how the police force operates and functions and we had a very good DGP, Mr. Jaishwal excellent man, he was police commissioner also before it became DGP and he was one of the persons who followed the law and he was very honest and everything a good person to be appointed and suddenly he says I don't want to work here anymore so I make inquiries why does he want to go, he is going to be a big loss to us and then we learn that the amount of pressure on him from the government to do this, do that, it's not a BJP government today, it's some kind of Mahagadi that is all big gathering of three parties and they put a lot of pressure to say arrest Mr, for example this Anab Goswami was arrested for something which they should not have arrested him for because there was no offence in that case you can't call it a badment to suicide if a fellow does not pay bill obviously Anab Goswami does not like to pay for whatever he orders and he the other person because the amount was large decided to commit suicide but that doesn't amount to abetment to suicide many of these abetment to suicide it's a very very unfortunate law that is being misused it was the abetment to suicide law was made because of the number of dowry demands and deaths following those dowry demands in the state of Gujarat for all states and the number of girls who commit suicide and that is how they thought of making this law and now it is being used for any love affair it's being used suppose somebody had a love affair and then after that love affair goes sour and one party exits from there the opposite party commits suicide the other band is arrested I was really shocked about this kind of misuse of this power of this law that requires a whole discussion which I am about to carry out there in my own way but this is by the way that the police do whatever the government in power wants them to do whereas what they should do is do according to the law and this is the law and if the law has to be implemented you know I remember that when I was commissioner of police in Thaned I had a visit by one of the MLA's the MLA was very close to the chief minister and I knew that so he came to see me and he said and he tells me now how long are you going to put this pressure on these bootleggers why don't you loosen your pressure I said but you have made the law I have not made the law so he said no but the law I know that we have made the law and we can't change it but you can certainly relax I said no I am not going to relax and I suggest that you go back and change the law if you want us to relax but this is the kind of pressure they put and if you can withstand that pressure then it's without getting transferred out now they ask me you know I had given a lecture after that to some IAS officers in Rajasthan in that Mathur they have got a whole college with an institution for in-service training and they were there for in-service training and they had asked me to talk to them and I said that this is how I managed to carry out my work without having these people on my back and they said how I said look I had the police force on my side the police force was on my side because I did them justice I never did any injustice to anyone give them proper hearing and did whatever I thought was right and explain to them and if I was wrong then I would agree that I was wrong so they were on my side and the people were on my side because we were on their side we were with the people so if you have got the police force and the people on your side the government will think 100 times before shifting you out but this thing this is a fact of life but this is happening not everybody gets a chance to get the police force and the public on its side so they should have the whole system in such a way that the police force is depoliticized the greatest example of the evils of politicization you will see in say in Delhi in 1984 after Mrs Gandhi was assassinated then there were widespread anti-seek riots now why did the police not act very swiftly they felt that the party in power is the congress party the mother of the prime minister has been assassinated so we will not be very diligent in our job of stopping it so this is what happened and then later on in 2002 after the Godra train matter there was a program of the Muslims poor people were killed so many of them I personally have gone and seen in Ahmedabad and it was because of the politicization of the police because the police are told to go slow whereas they should not go slow they should be very vigilant to see that people are not killed in fact in Gujarat there were three or four districts where the SPs young fellows they were very firm and there the number of killings was certainly much less but they were all transferred out within 15 days they were shifted because they had not cooperated with the pogrom so you see these are things that clearly show you that politicization of the force is the worst kind of thing that can happen and why are the other countries in the west so forward I mean so we look up to them and say that they are doing things much better than us but why because if they have a police force is not politicized there you know during my time I had occasion to meet the commissioner of police London metropolitan police what you call Scotland yard so Peter Inbert was the person at that time and I went and met him to discuss mutual problems and I said what do you do about these corruption and we had a long talk about how we would tackle corruption particularly in the special forces and then I then asked him about the transfers and how do you tackle the interference in transfers that he said what is that so I said that when they ask you to shift post somebody in this police station and that they said no this never happened I never heard about it so you see this is the way politicization happens that you interfere with postings and transfers now whenever you post people like that you get corruption going through the roof you can't even and the police commissioner can't even shift the man out as I show I gave you one example of that when I talked to the commissioner he said I have written to the government and the government decided that corrupt color should be out or not and if the corrupt man is also sharing his whatever he gets illegally then you will have him there for the rest of your service so this is these are the things that happen and it is only the people who can really put it right they have to be they have to be constantly told about it and they have to take up this matter and if the government knows that will lose votes only then they will stop politicizing the police so this is what I wanted to talk to you about about politicization and how it is affecting the quality of life and how the rule of law is not respected here because of the politicization of the police thank you so much for hearing me out and I would be happy to answer any questions you would like to put I am quite sure that many young people would like to know thank you thank you thank you so much sir now I put it open for the questions if there are any questions you would be happy to take them thank you if one person asks then others will start you see otherwise nobody wants to be the first that I have always seen so let's see who will ask the first question I think the students can give the lead give them the lead I will open up the session sir thank you very much for a very open and experienced exposure on the subject the subject has always been actually double sided for majority of us on one side is the rule of law which legally ethically morally the police must follow on the other side there are practical realistic pressures of modern day society the political and so on and therefore to find a fine balance between the two and support the society in correct policing maintaining the internal law and order which is the prime responsibility becomes essentially important sir therefore what my question to you is how do you maintain this fine balance between the legality and ethics of moral policing sir you see it's not easy to do it today because it's a you know I will tell you I worked in at a different times is very unfair on my part to say that the police force has become this and become that because I worked under different people and I remember that you I'll tell you about my own experience and you'll be able to understand it was in Mumbai in 1985 when they were communal riots now in communal riots if you want to stop them it's not difficult at all you have to find out who are the instigators of the riots the people who kill and get killed are the poor people believing in the slums etc but the instigators don't kill they don't get killed also they are sitting in their offices or in their mosques or in their temples or whatever so who are the people who are instigating and in I found that in my city of Mumbai at that time the instigators belonged to a party called the Shiva Sena and that they were basically you know they were organized in a certain manner they had what they call the Shaka Pramukhs Shaka Pramukhs means in each locality there was one fellow who is in charge he was like a capo you know in the underworld and he his order his without him the top leadership would not be able to function now the top leaders don't go down and killing and they don't know how to do it even they don't know how to even get people they can speak they can talk they can but they cannot really organize them and I said that we should not touch the big leader but that time Bal Thakre and his and his number two people there were about 20 of them they should not be touched with their ministers and things like that get hold of all the top couples you know those 51 of 52 each they were in each police station one and let us put them back they won't then that whole ability to operate would be flattered and we did that immediately immediately there was absolute quiet the next day and then I said that perhaps the opposite side which the Muslim side which usually builds up the defense they might get a little out of hand so let us take their their leaders who are the ones who give them the arms and things to defend themselves and they are the underworld dawns you know in Bombay they have all those dawns and these dawns are usually many of them are Muslim dawns so we got them all locked up in next day so the whole thing was now the repercussions were very interesting there was peace total peace but the pressure of the chief minister to release these people was so great that not only the Shiv Sena chief went every day to the mantra or to the house of the chief minister to please release them and I promise that I will do that I will be very quiet and the Muslims their congress MPs from UP they flew to Bombay to get and put pressure on the congress chief minister to release all those dawns you see because they were the ones who were probably financing their their political activity so this is how those pressures came and that pressure naturally the chief minister put on me so do they are so do they you know in Marathi he said please leave them leave them so I kept on and then fortunately the chief secretary was a was a good person he was he became the union home secretary later Mr. R. D. Pradhan he recently died he supported me in a big way so the two of us really put a bulwark but we put a stop to this and we said at least for 15 days let them remain so we made a target of 15 days we managed 12 after that the chief minister himself said no I am going to if y'all are not doing it we will do it and release them but this kind of pressure from the political class which goes against the good sense of security of the of the public that has to be balanced and I know I use the same tactic when there were riots but there were communal riots in Ahmedabad in 1985 85 years and the riots in Bombay were 84 85 there were riots in Ahmedabad I was not I was not involved because I'm from Maharashtra Gujarat had already been bifurcated and we we had the the Prime Minister called me I was then the DG of the CRPF and he said please go to Ahmedabad and take charge as DG and stop it so I said that I require only a few days but nobody should interfere he gave me that total this I said I'm doing no transfers nothing you tell them that I'm going to rough rough shot over them and I put the all the VHP people who were writing all scurrilous messages on the walls and on the Muslim side again the same gang lords and and that is how we put them within seven days it all over so it is you can put it but then you have to have the political side political people on your side if the political people don't want to cooperate then there will be a problem but in those days they were supposed to they were they were themselves desperate so fortunately I was in that era this era does not exist now it's very difficult I agree because when the 2002 riots took place in Gujarat when I went and asked the the DG and other senior officers why did you allow one minister to sit in your control room and DG's control room one in CP's control room minister was sitting and directing operations I said how can you do that how did you allow I would never allow so they said sir it is quite a different regime you can't you have to be you have to be ready for any kind of of repercussion if you don't know these kind of orders so you see it's a different I agree that I have not worked in under such circumstances I have no person I have no right to to criticize but here I have tell you what I have done and it was a much better time and we could definitely have our have our say yeah thank you very much sir yeah thank you thank you sir for your elaborate answer and thank you Sir my observation is that after the service many people are inclined to join politics right and this is all actually a very debatable issue also right so my question is especially in the context of the senior IPS officer joining the politics right immediately after you know their retirement or superannuation so don't you think that whether a procedure needs to be installed there has to be some procedure for a police officer to not allow to join politics at least at least for two or three years post retirement what is your take on it you see this has been happening for some time but we find that people who feel you know the person to join politics perhaps are those who feel left out of all the excitement that you know when they are in service they are in they are in the public eye and they like that adulation perhaps they didn't get it when they are out of service so they want to continue to be in the public eye through this method of joining politics but now it is becoming much more and that is very worrisome and I agree that there should be some kind of method by which you cannot at the moment by law stop anyone from joining politics you can't but you can certainly put in place certain you know a wall a certain wall fire wall whatever you call it to see that they do not take undue advantage of their being at the end of their service to do harm to the body politic to do harm to the rule of law because if there was their intention then of course there is always I can tell you one case in Mumbai which I know about where the commissioner of police after he he went and joined a political party here in Mumbai itself and he sat on the on the days with the with Mr. Baal Thakri and he was there but the people the followers of the ship Sena themselves said we don't why should we lose our chance and this has just come just been the commissioner and he was on the other side suddenly he comes here and they they put so much pressure on their own boss that the man's you know attempt to join politics itself was was totally erased so this is what happened I've seen myself but these are things that each case is different but perhaps people are thinking about giving it a what is that a break you said two three years I thought they said one year then after a year but if you say two three years that would be better still but by that time then people will forget about this man you know this man of the BG of Bihar he had decided to join but I don't think he got the ticket so with the result that he wasted all his time so I think these people should be given a chance to to to hang themselves thank you thank you sir so another question from my side would be it's regarding the practical challenges that you know that police officers on the ground they fit because of the unnecessary interference in the investigations right because I was also practicing in the Bombay High Court and you know off the table off the record many discussions happens there also so considering the factual reality of not only Bombay Police but all over India and unnecessary interference of the the political masters into the investigation so how can we how can the we call it loyal policing or as a modern policing would survive in all the chaos like a young boy wants to join a police service right he always look for ideals he always look for you know the people to look up right but do you think that such environment still exists today for the young generation do you think that the investigation can really be free from political influences sir what is your take on it as a police officer as well as as a person who runs an NGO and who fights for the rights of the people I think that look much depends on the leadership of the police if the police leadership is quite clear that they know what they have to do that they have given they have taken an oath and that they will follow that oath and that they will not get in influenced by the political class so the political class has its own interests and their interest mainly is to remain in power or to get power so they want this done and that done but if it is not the right thing and it is not according to the facts of the case I don't think that you should do it or agree to do it and I know many officers who don't do it I mean they say that look we can't do that they do try to show that they are willing to come to a certain position half way or quarter the way but just that is just to remain their troops safeguard their own position but they have a conscience and with their conscience they say that look we cannot do this this we cannot do and if you want to get this done then perhaps the best thing is to not have me here in position because I will not be able to do it but it's difficult for many I don't see many officers taking up these stands these days they are more interested in their own in their own that's unfortunate we have to build up a young youth which is more you know I mean with strong character with the sense of values that does not just rely on becoming rich quickly overnight without doing any work this is what many people want to do these days it's unfortunate but true yeah thank you so much sir one more question again from my side see there was a news few days back regarding granting zipper security to the most industrialist in India so there was a news before two days back regarding granting a zipper security to the top most industrialist in India so my question is that I was actually wondering right I mean it has never happened before but under what law can such security be granted or whether granting such security is actually you know within the legal parameters laid down by CRPF or what is your take on it what is the what is the law says about it granting security to the industrialist people you see I was I worked in the CRP for six years as a junior officer I was the DIG in Hyderabad and later on I was in the headquarters also as DD administration and finally I became DG of the CRPF for seven weeks before I was sent to Gujarat but so I know that the CRPF does not have this role of going and giving personal protection to industrialist and but I also agree that certain in the like Mr Mukesh Ambani for instance he has got in this protection I think that if any harm comes to him then this nation would be in a bad way because he's he contributes quite a substantial part of the GDP and we are always in the problem about that so we we also have to look through the nation's interests also so I think that giving him protection but whether it should be given from CRPF or just the Bombay police I don't know the Bombay police should have some some kind of branch or arm I had I had recommended which has not policemen because policemen are required for street duties but for duties like this which are often they are often called upon to do and then they can become particularly you know there was an army officer retired colonel who used to was very good at training these people and I thought that he could be given that job of training force that would provide these services and those people won't mind being paying for it I'm sure Mukesh is paying for all that whatever he's being provided it doesn't matter to him at all money is not a problem so but for the police force it is a big problem because they are they have been sanctioned on the basis of certain roles and if they are not performing those roles but doing another role then that that particular role should have another organization to provide that role because it should be a government organization that gives that then it gives that much more security private security may not be able to really perform the security role so there are certain industrialists who are certainly in a bracket where we may where the state may have to see that they are not in any way harmed but it's a difficult I agree with you that's a difficult choice because sometimes as you know now they do all sorts of funny thing that a big industrialist sitting abroad also now waiting to be repatriated and if they had asked for security what did you do what do you do about that so there are lots of answers this is a very tricky question and may have to be discussed and and a solution found because there is that it is not that we just say that we cannot give you security at all because if the person is eliminated then you are going to face a very major crisis so that also you have to take into consideration yeah thank you sir is there any any other question from the participants please maybe you can ask any question about not only just police administration or reforms maybe if you are interested in knowing maybe on terrorism also or maybe any other question okay so if there are no more questions and almost it's a time now so sir let me let me let me thank you for your time and thank you for really joining us and enlightening us you know the scenario that the country is actually experiencing not only in terms of you know the policing because I believe somewhere that the political influence is everywhere not only in the police administration but also you know in other departments also as well as in the private sector as well so actually the problem is very grave and very complicated as well but yes the solution has to be there and solution I believe lies in the hands of the people of India we are the people of India the constitution of India is with us so I feel that we all need to understand our constitutional rights our constitutional liberty and with that we can collectively you know I believe find the solution oh there is one question there is one question coming sure sure will you George please please you can you can ask your question there is one question coming Mr. George Mr. George can you hear I think there is some technical problem we are not able to hear anything Mr. George you can write your question here in the chat box if possible I'll read it out okay so I think we are not able to sir well then we have to conclude this program and so thank you so much and have a good day sir thank you thank you so much