 So far you guys having a good time Yeah, good. Excellent. This is amazing. I love this place. I love coming here every year We have an amazing set of panelists here today As you weren't just I think actually your game was not one million was a hundred million players Yeah, it's kind of the same same thing one million a hundred million not okay We're here to talk about AR augmented reality and when we kind of spoke the last time I asked you okay, but What is AR? What is your definition of AR? Why does it matter? Could you want to start sure? So I mean it's a little bit self-explanatory at the beginning like augmented reality So I view AR is anything that changes reality in some way shape or form So then that's either from a camera perspective as most people normally know it But then even from a like sound perspective Or even location-based in the case of say games like Ingress Pokemon go for us Okay, and What would be it you have the same definition to her? Yeah, well, I you know people are often talking about AR and VR and I kind of feel that when you talk about VR We're talking about Creating new worlds or like putting someone in a new world Whereas AR we are more enhancing the current world or the real world and there's a You know big difference of those two things, but yeah, okay So enhancing the current world all this sort of stuff looks super nice, but Ross when I was speaking with you backstage You told me like AR is like candy floss, right? You've got this huge hype around AR a bit like the same way that you had this big hype around VR right and virtual reality Hasn't become mainstream. It was gonna be the next next big thing Is AR just hype as well? Well, if you think about anything that for any hype, there's always the kernel of Excitement behind it on so then there's the promise and the vision of where AR is going So I always think about having everyone like a personalized world that they want to see the world as they As that they would prefer to have so at least in terms of hype and everything It's more people believing in the promise of it on a lot of the technology is really really difficult Like the world is the biggest variable that you've ever seen on literally and then it In terms of offering the technology to get us up to the stage that everyone can have the experiences that they want Like there's still a gap in between there at the moment So I wouldn't say that it's necessarily hype per se But I would say that people are really believing in what it can be and then right now There's literally billions of dollars being spent in the industry trying to move us towards that vision But wasn't that the same case with VR? For VR one of the difficult things with VR is the device adoption So you end up with the chicken and egg problem of okay It'll be cool if everyone can have it But then you need to have the applications to then drive the devices So then they've been stuck in this interesting chicken and egg problem, which again like Facebook is pushing a lot of money into that vibe is doing a lot of really great work So that will eventually happen. It's just slower for AR We're seeing a lot more adoption now because you have the mobile stage first and then that will be leading into headsets in the future Okay, so are what you think? Yeah, I think the problem with why AR isn't mainstream So first of all, I don't think it's a hype I feel like you know the first time I I got you know Enchanted with with AR was I when I saw Terminator 2 the movie and you could see through is like wiser You could like identify everything on the screen and they were just this is awesome Why isn't this a real thing? but the problem is Still, I mean, I think most of the technology is there. I think the devices is the biggest problem I think that you know the problem with VR was that those glasses or those like headsets Like before they can get mainstream. They just need to be a little bit more cool I know that's this sounds but I know it can't be so dorky and there are so many examples of that kind of Evolution like for other technologies for example like, you know wireless headphones Everyone uses wireless headphones now the AirPods but that kind of technology has been around for ages It was like these you remember those Bluetooth big headphones that you put on and you kind of look like a Star Trek character Yeah, I mean it's been around for ages. It's a really great technology But it wasn't really until Apple brought, you know pretty cool headphones with the AirPods that everyone started using them And I think the same kind of evolution is gonna happen with VR that first It's gonna be these big bulky headsets But as soon as people will have something they want to wear it's gonna, you know become mainstream Okay, so if you think about what's holding a our back from what I understood you're saying Technology in some some way and you're saying also devices Is that the only thing that's stopping it from being widely used in gaming and in other industries Are you think there's other things that are stopping it? Well, I think that there's three components that are kind of the main barriers to entry So then one is the devices per se like kind of right now Mobile phones are a great kind of way to get your feet wet on and really explore the initial applications of it So I'd say getting the devices set up the second one Which is what we at Niantic are extremely interested in is the data aspect because you need to understand reality in order to augment it So then building up that kind of data layer on top of the world thinking it a little bit like an operating system on top of the World and for that you had a head start with Google Maps, right? Yeah Yeah, so then the founders of Niantic were actually one of the original people that help or that Google acquired on to then build Google Earth Google Street View Google Maps on so then the data layer I think is another major portion, which is what we're really going after and the third one I'd actually say something that snap is pioneering is the social aspect the social acceptability Because Google Glass when it initially came out. Well, it kind of got grouped into the augmented reality world It it really wasn't cool. They're called like Not sure I can say this on stage but glass holes So then getting that social component so it now becomes okay to get to what the Thor was saying that it's now cool to use it And I think the social aspect is something that you at t-time are working on a lot So you haven't released yet what you're working on this super secret, but I've seen it Yep, so can I say one or two things? Sure. I mean just don't show anything here So my thing from what I've seen is you you're truly making a t-time AR truly social you really turning it to truly social experience and for me when I first saw it It felt like magic. Yeah as a player and be of course as an investor and all that sort of stuff But I thought really was it was magic. Can can you tell us why social is so important? They are and why you think that could be key to make a mainstream. Yeah, first of all I think we should always look at AR is two things basically it's augmenting the environment and then it's augmenting yourself Yeah, and you know even though we do have apps now where you use the device to like look through the device and augment the reality The phones are not I feel a good device to do that But you know the biggest AR application so far in the world is probably snapchat or Instagram Where you're augmenting yourself using like beauty filters, which I love they my pictures are much better when I use beauty filters So we decided to use that aspect more and a t-time We are trying to create like a new platform of social games Where people are actually playing each other through mobile using video chat while playing But on top of that you put all these different types of AR filters and you could probably say that First of all it's good to be able to make yourself more pretty because people all we you can't underestimate people's vanity But also it's a great tool to get people into character to fulfill the fantasy so to speak So if you're if you're playing like a space themed game with another person And you can see that person live and talk to her or him and you can choose from all these different space helmets And choose different backgrounds that it just makes all the difference and in our experience like using AR To help people socialize and help people break the eyes to talk to one another. It's just Magical, so I'm really looking forward to to bringing our products out next year Okay, and so I mean obviously you guys come more from a Games background, and I think I think it's fair to say that what there is already a mainstream AR product, but then the AR kind of Snobbs will say it's not really AR which is your product Pokemon Go, right? Yeah So if you think about outside of games, right? Are there other areas where you see AR becoming potentially mainstream or is it just gonna be games? And he's gonna take take a long time to go into other areas. I mean for entrepreneurs out here that are thinking about AR What should they be working on what could be interesting other than games? Well at least to defend Pokemon go in a way because it's like Large portion of the AR level 28 fine like it does Building on what Thor was saying it does fulfill the fantasy So one of the things that I view is really important for anyone developing in AR for gaming or not is think about what is the application and How does that how does augmented reality actually help that so right now? There's this big push in Silicon Valley of oh, we're doing AR for X in a sense And I think it's actually the wrong approach you need to flip it on its head And what is something that augmented reality can actually benefit from so to get to your main point on what is AR useful for outside of gaming I found that there's like kind of three value propositions one for gaming It fulfills the fantasy like people catching Pokemon in the real world like actually makes the game more sticky on I view it's also useful for instruction. So showing people. Hey, here's how you operate this machine Here's how you build like in the future. You can say this IKEA furniture Educational aspects and the third one that I view is I view will be one the mainstream applications is Visualization so I think that the first killer app of headsets is gonna be laptops where you can have a small Keyboard a mouse and a hundred inch Screen in front of you and like I'd pay three thousand dollars for that. So games Instructions and visualization. Yeah. Yeah, one of my dreams I'm sure it exists, but I can't find it is to have a ski mask that tells me all the information How fast I'm going and stuff and all that this or a motorbike mask with you know Google Maps on it and I can't find that Not yet. Not yet. I think and I've been thinking about they are a lot since Terminator 2 Yeah, I think it's going to be More revolutionizing than we actually think I I feel like like 40 years ago office workers didn't have computers They just used, you know pen and paper then the computers came along and their productivity was like multiplied But that's just for office workers We still have lots of different industries where people are you know working on their feet doctors, you know carpenters plumbers all these different types of industries and they have not been able to take advantage of sitting down with a computer Because they're working on their feet. Just imagine I think that a year is going to be the same revolution for these types of industries as the computer was for the office worker Just imagine a carpenter having his hat set on knowing exactly measuring everything just by looking at it Seeing where to put the nail seeing the model being built in front of him being able to visualize everything and it's this for doctors It's for you know, so many applications So I do think as soon as the device is already AR is going to be a huge part of everyone's lives And so if we take it down the level and right now I want to start in AR. I've got a startup I want to start something What do you do you just use AR kit AR core and then you do something with that you build on top of it You do your own tools. I mean, what's your recommendation there? Well, at least right now augmented reality is in the early stages So then there's a lot of opportunity for kind of exploring like what is wrong So like what are the core platforms associated with it like AR kidney our core? They're more kind of based technologies on The kind of like we're working on our real-world platform like the data side To build up the kind of large-scale applications that people can do at least in terms of what are the specific technologies that are needed I would say that's not even a solved problem yet in terms of oh here the five things that you'll need for any AR application because People are still building out the applications. They're figuring out. What are all the tools that they need? So I actually think for startups there's a lot of interesting areas that as they say oh I want the world to look like X and What are the things that I need to get in there and probably there's a couple thousand other people out there in the early days That don't know what X is yet or don't know the steps how to get there So I think there's good applications that are out there now We're building our own platform based off of our immense experience from building AR But so you mean external developers will be able to use Niantic technologies. Yes thing. Okay Yes, it's the same here I mean we're really early stage on the technology and AR kit and AR core are really good But there are still a host of problems with that and as we're so new There is such a big opportunity for new companies to come out with all sort of innovation and for us for example We are working with a couple of startups in that space to make our experience even better And then of course also when you have the two tech giants Google and Apple making their own Stuff a cross-platform compatibility becomes a problem and for us as we're on the on the mobile space We need to be able to have everyone play, you know one another and that forces us to Invent our own technology and work with other great companies But just as Ross says it's so early and there are so many like such an opportunity for new companies to come in and Just make something completely new. So it's an exciting space I have a lot of more questions But I want to start taking a few questions from the audience and then mix it in so there's a few that I think are interesting that came in One of them is and maybe comes back to the definition as well And the question is mixed reality versus augmented reality. I think I think a what's the difference and be So at least like I started my company which was acquired by Nantik about a year ago And then it's been interesting seeing the different trends where there's this big push towards everything is mixed reality And then Pokemon go was more augmented reality and it was like this mixed reality connects it more And then when Apple came out with a our kid and then it became oh now It's all augmented reality and now it's there's still confusion within the market I don't really see a full difference in between the two of them Like you're mixing reality or you're augmenting it you're still changing it So I view it's a little bit terminology and I think there were some companies I think Magic Leap and Microsoft they were pushing for more mixed reality and then Apple was like no AR and now It's it's kind of a fight in between there, but I view it's a little bit more semantic than it is a Hardcore definition, so we should call it change reality then No magical reality magical reality like that. I mean it's so magical again This is you know, this is such a sci-fi stuff where you see we're seeing augmented reality applications So I think there's you know Do you think the thing that's missing maybe for it to really go huge is that what you just said Is that magical element is still hard to find and get by and all that? Again, sorry, it's the devices I mean I remember when Google Glasses came out and I know there are people here from Google and I'm sorry about that But I got so excited when I saw the glasses were coming out and I imagined it was some sort of an overlay It was you know Was the AR dream being able to use Google lands walked down a street look at the restaurant see their menu see like all of these Things that we've been promised, but then it just you know kind of sucked and it looked really dorky. Sorry and and I Mean this is just what we're waiting for we're waiting for that you know device that feels natural to use So what the phone is not the right device. No, well, it depends on what is the application? And so then if you want to have you want to catch Pokemon the real world like and you have 100 minutes Only with people to do that like the phone is a great device So I think it depends on I think that once you have these devices once you have the the data associated with it Then there will be a immense opportunity We'll see explosive growth on the level of smartphones at least for getting adoption today It depends on it like you want to say is this a magical experience like we've given a demo at Escher My my company before to a four-year-old where there was a flying squirrel that was flying around in there And she was looking at the phone It was this amazing experience where she was like looked at the phone looked around the phone went back So it was like reverse peek-a-boo and she was just blown away and then like it was really magical to her And we kind of view that as like this window into the different reality that you want to see and so I think the magic is there but Okay for a four-year-old seeing a flying squirrel is a wonderful application They can play around with that their imagination goes wild once it starts to get useful And is used in many other applications then we can begin to see this more gradient of improvement I just do add on to that I think the phone is going to be a great device to do the front-end camera to like augment yourself And I think of course we're gonna be able to get magical moments using your phone and like looking at the table as you Seen the demos, but I think it's just too cumbersome, you know to get really mainstream And I really think that I'm from an investor perspective. There's no money in it. Oh Yeah, yeah fun for two seconds. You look at something how do you monetize exactly? I think that you know I can I still think and and I know that maybe Pokemon Go is is the I mean It's the only really successful AR game that's using the that that part of the camera But I think that for AR and I've said this like three times today But I think that using the phone to like hold it like this is is kind of Gadgety, you know, it's it's it's that that's gonna change And I think it's just gonna get really mainstream when we have the proper devices and what's the proper device the glasses Yes, some sort something people want to wear I mean, it's it's all about vanity in the end and I'll go back to my My demo of AirPods versus Bluetooth, you know headsets that as soon as it, you know become something that people want to wear People are I mean then people will get the devices and then the developers will stop developing for it So that's that's how it has to go. Okay, how many people have played Pokemon Go Ross? Is it a billion already or what is it one billion? Not sure it's a billion yet I don't know the exact number, but upper hundreds of millions and so that's pretty mass market already And that's most people's first experience is like catching a Pokemon AR So like hundreds of millions of people around the world have played or have experienced augmented reality in a simple form Okay, so Where do you go from there? I mean, how do you make the next one bigger and better and how do you make it magical? Cuz you're gonna tell me. Oh bigger IP. Okay But beyond that Well, it's like the IP or you can't what Harry Potter is the next one coming out I can't say other IPs, but it's been me antics in a good spot on Well, it's one of these interesting things will I be able to turn? Tor into I know a beautiful princess or please With my land is that how it's gonna work? So I can't go into the specifics of what is the mechanic, but I encourage all of you to play. It's a really it It's gonna be cool. Um, when's it coming out? Can you say or? 2019 I've literally had people like stand around me and be like you can't talk about Harry. Okay, so like I'll stop I'll be nice But no, we're in this interesting position that you like literally can't do a 10x just From the game just because there aren't that many people on the planet Just because Pokemon Go is such a massive hit on so at least for like Exploring what are more of what you can do? How can you fulfill the fantasy? How can you get more people out there exploring socializing and exercising which is the core mission of Niantic on? And then have that be in continuing to engage and like doing that things with Harry Potter in the short term But then also expanding this as a developer platform that anyone can build this all with all of the experience and lessons learned that we've had Which let me tell you is immense. It was interesting going from a startup company and doing high tech To then going into Niantic and be like holy crap. They had to do what? I'm gonna take another question from the crowd which is Again taking it away from games and the question is what is the most important thing that AR will bring to the business world? And I think you touched upon a little bit. Is it volumetric video? Is it simultaneous workflow? Is it something else? or I Often think about they are bringing more You know value to not just you as to set the office workers But kind of being able to you know in the health industry for example I think that they are will you know be incredibly Useful for doctors getting all the analysis Being able to you know help with procedures and stuff like that But I think like all in all I think it's going to be a great way to deliver information Really quickly to you while in the midst of something else I think that's one of the things that AR is going to be useful is you don't have to have the computer there You can actually from the context from your location from what you're seeing Analyze what you're doing and get straight feedback, you know in the corner of your eye or wherever I think I think that's going to be very empowering for a lot of professions cross At least for the business world there's two ways in which to answer the question one is like the broad vision of Okay, giving the information that is contextually relevant on for the location like okay You want to fix something you want of a plumber come in that you can all you can connect people and they can help You with that so it's a much more intuitive interface than like looking at a piece of paper looking at a screen and then trying to imagine it in the real World so at least so that's the more long-term vision giving you the information that you need to be more effective in the world The shorter term is like where is this useful like going to be in a couple of years? So then I would say like laptops. I think are going to be really amazing I view that there's been a lot of uptick in instruction and training So like saying hey screwdriver goes in here people like make less mistakes So then I view that that's probably the area in enterprise. That's really going to grow tremendously But I view for that you need to have your hands free which then gets you away from the mobile So mobile is pretty good for the consumer and gaming Aspects, but then headsets is what Thor has been talking about will make that'll be you'll see a lot more incremental improvements in enterprise But like there's kind of a nice gradient there while I view there's kind of a cliff that you need to go after for the consumer space I think it's gonna revolutionize IKEA manuals Just imagine you don't you see the thing there and they're already doing that I will still do it wrong What's amazing is like Niantic is known as like kind of the one of the leading AR companies But then I've been on so many of these panels like IKEA has brought up so many times That like I agree. They're really really cool stuff. I mean does everyone really and I guess it's just so annoying to put them all together I like I liked we have three minutes left and I like to put in two questions more One is from the audience as well, and I think that's more like two entrepreneurs out there It's funny because it's a question I see coming more and more is how many players will we have in the market when it will be finally developed? Is this gonna be like a winner takes all and Android and iOS is gonna take all the value So, you know Google and Apple will take all of the AR value or it's gonna. Is it gonna be multiple players? multiple billion dollar or more companies Created, I mean, I would say obviously it's a multi. Well kind of example Multi-billion dollar industries will be created out of it So then if you think about smartphones like that really helped Apple rise up to become not sure if it's still the world's most valuable company but among them But then like uber was made like Instagram was made like Facebook mobile like really get developed like there's been so many Billion dollar companies that have come out of that that I I don't see a world where that does not happen I view that there are new areas in AR that will develop, but yeah cool I think Apple and Google are gonna be instrumental in this. I mean let's face it. They control Everyone's phones at this moment There will be companies software companies that are gonna make great applications and we will have billion dollar companies from that however, I Would really love because as we said before I think it's gonna go from the phones to something else and even though like Google and Apple are the prime suspects to bring something some device like that to the market There is still a chance for some, you know, great company to come and be a part of that Perfect and now in the one million twenty seconds. We've got left. I'm gonna ask you a question And each give you time to also make maybe make a conclusion with that question and that question is a two-part question the first part of the question is What is the most fun thing that you and you will do with AR in five years time and Then as part of that question is do you think AR will have a net positive impact on the world or? A net negative impact on the world. Is it just the latest gadget technology? Basically? There we go. Yeah, go ahead So at least the most fun thing that I'm gonna do in a AR in the next five years on Well, everyone talks about like the dystopian world of like there's gonna be ads everywhere Like I really can't wait to make like AR ad block And you walk through the world like all billboards become cute cats and then Like and even to that thing or expanding upon that just having a personalized experience that like I always say if You look at the world and then I want to see cute cats everywhere And you want to see cute dogs and like your version of ad block or even just the experience that you want like that that type of Personalization I think is really great. Is that positive for the world? Um, I would say well ad block people download that But at least in terms of having the world as you want to see it I would say that's a positive But I would say technology is neutral and then it's up to us to decide whether we want to make good or bad Things associated with or to finalize. I just can't wait 20 seconds at a conference like this Having my my classes on and having faced recognition Compare, you know to my LinkedIn profile and being able to like recognize and remember the names of everyone I meet I think that's gonna be a huge positive impact for the business world not to forget names So sounds good. Thank you very much. You both were out of time. I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you