 Welcome to this week's episode of It's Time for Responsible Change. I'm Tina Patterson. I'm serving as guest moderator while Chuck Crumpton is on vacation. And with us this evening, we've got a fantastic lineup of panelists, and I'm excited to share with you our topic. First, let me make introductions. You may remember the FAB4, well, tonight we're expanding and we're going to the Phenomenal Five. Founder Sims and Rebecca Ratliff were unable to join us. However, we do have with us this evening Louise Eng, who is partner at Dentons. Lorraine de la Porta, who is the owner of the Resolution Collaborate. And in our addition, number five, making our Phenomenal Five, is Amy Schmitz. She is a professor at the Ohio State University Moritz Law, our topic tonight. Very excited. We shortened it for the show form, but the original topic was girls just want to have fundamental rights. And for those of you that are certain age, you'll know their reference, Cindy Lough. However, on a more serious note, we are going to be talking this evening about fundamental rights. And there's a lot for us to dig into. But before we begin, I want to really get set the stage as far as what our fundamental rights because we hear people talking frequently about their fundamental rights. I'm going to share with you, however, definition from the Cornell Law School Legal Information Institute. Fundamental rights are a group of rights that have been recognized by the Supreme Court as requiring a high degree of protection from government encroachment. These rights are specifically identified in the Constitution, especially in the bill of rights or have been implied through the interpretation of clauses, such as under due process. These laws are said to be fundamental because they were found to be so important for individual liberty. They should be beyond the reach of the political process, and therefore they are enshrined in the Constitution. Laws encroaching on a fundamental right generally must pass strict scrutiny to be upheld as constitutional. I'm going to share a few examples of fundamental rights. Fundamental rights mentioned directly in the Constitution, freedom of speech, trial by jury, protection against self-incrimination, protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, equal protection, and the right to vote. Having said that, fundamental rights not specifically listed in the Constitution include marriage, privacy, contraception, interstate travel, procreation, and custody of one's children. So instead of that, I'm going to give credit where credit is due. Lorraine, you're the one who brought forward this idea of girls just want to have fundamental rights. What were you thinking about fundamental rights in girls? Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot about this since Roe v. Wade was overturned. And then I just happened to see an ad with Cindy Lauper wearing this t-shirt that said girls just want to have fundamental rights in support of her foundation. So she has a foundation called the True Colors Foundation that takes up these causes. And I thought, what a perfect topic. And with all the distractions around us and everything going on in the world, I felt like we were starting to lose sight of some of these issues. And I thought this is a great way to lift the mac up and top them through. Louise, thinking about fundamental rights. I know you have been a strong advocate for many of the fundamental rights that I listed. What's top of mind for you right now when you think about fundamental rights? I, top of mind for me is the fact that rights that we took for granted, and particularly Lorraine, as you mentioned, the right to privacy, contraception, reproductive rights, rights over our own bodies, that it's become politicized. And we are seeing, you know, these are just something we have taken for granted for decades that we have achieved through Roe v. Wade. And instead, we see, you know, retractions and sort of stepping back, holding on in so many states that's very discouraging. While at the same time, it seems like, you know, other types of rights, like the right to gun control are, or the right to guns, are becoming expanded. And in a way, that too is taking away people's fundamental rights just to be safe. And, you know, for bodily integrity and the like. Yeah. Amy, so when I know you shared with me and I know about your journey, Amy's probably one of the few law professors I know that I could safely describe as a technologist. She is very strong, very adamant, proponent of technology. Having said that, let's talk a little bit about fundamental rights and technology and justice. I was thinking about the right to vote when I thought of you. What are you, right, where is your, what are you thinking? No, I love the question. And also I do feel strongly about women's rights. And I very much worry about girls and fundamental rights. But even from a technology standpoint, we have to think about how that impacts us as humans, given biases that are baked into algorithms that could control our life and control benefits, control decisions. And there's a lot happening right now that I think we have to be careful. We need to push pause and make sure that we're safe about the way that we're using AI. That can have big impacts on any woman's life. That's a wonderful point, Amy. I was thinking in preparation for tonight, what types of technological solutions are out there to protect information? So one of the things I'm very aware of is how in certain states that outlaw reproductive rights and abortion, how they're sharing information with other states about women accessing healthcare. And I wondered if there were some technological supports or solutions to some of that. Yeah, no. I mean, currently there's not, but I wish that we had a way. I'm in a state where it's a big issue politically. And I can't even imagine, how do you figure out where do I go if I need help? Or as a woman, as a young woman, that's really concerning for me. But also even from an access to justice standpoint, that's very concerning. So I wish I had answers, but a lot of it is political and we have to make the leaders understand these issues. And what do you think? Louise or Tina, do you guys have any thoughts about that? Well, AI is becoming such, it's being sort of like the hot topic right now in so many ways. But I'd be interested in me in hearing more about your concerns on how it impacts fundamental rights. Is it, you know, an issue of sort of invading privacy or are you thinking, I'm curious what else, because I'm still in learning mode about AI. Well, I'll give you an example. Okay. So recently there's been information or news, actually you would find this on NPR where people were cut off from going to different grocery stores because they were plagued as a shoplifter from so kind of facial recognition, which was not right. So imagine if you need to get like formula for your child and you need to shop and you can't because the store thinks you're a shoplifter because of facial recognition. Facial recognition, which is happening right now. Like imagine when you check out, you know, you self-check out and they have a camera out there. That is a like example that I think is very serious in my view. I'm worried about that because often it's wrong, but still like it impacts people's lives. We also have something called due process. So if somebody is accused of shoplifting, they have the right to, you know, defend themselves. So are they automatically judged to be shoplifters? Right. That's scary. Yeah. And it's all private. So what do you, how do you, yeah. Wow. Louise or Tina, have you guys run into this or do you guys have any thoughts? You women have any thoughts? Yeah. I guess my impression is that, you know, at the same time that technology has aided us so much and we have our cameras, the social media, what we're not thinking about is just like the scenario of 1984. That's how much we take for granted the fact that our faces are being photographed. I hear that, you know, there are apps and programs being developed that where, you know, it can aggregate photographs from all over social media. To track and identify you. And, you know, it's becoming, you know, we're thinking of it as recreational, but as you say, there are more serious impacts we need to think about. Yeah. So Amy, my perspective is slightly different. There are some dangers involved as you indicated in the space in which I work. Artificial intelligence has been around for at least 20 to 30 years and we use it readily. Now, the examples that you give, I definitely relate to, but I also know that it's not the application itself that's the issue. The application didn't develop itself. It was developed by an individual or group of individuals. The same factors that can be used to target someone and label them as a shoplifter can actually be removed to say, you know, okay, we need to double check and we need to triple check. I have been in this, so my background is in software development and sometimes we've used biometrics, which could be using iris, a fingerprint to recognize someone, not necessarily the face, face can be changed. But your iris, your fingerprint will always be unique to you. And having said that, guardrails are needed. I'm a huge proponent of guardrails and this is where I think a lot of the stories that we hear, whether it's chat, GPT, or the facial recognition issues, really having the guardrails to say double check. Yeah, those who travel abroad, and I'm one person who has traveled, the global entry program that we use in the United States uses facial recognition. Yeah. And we don't think twice about it, but we use it. Other countries do the same. You use, some of you who have traveled abroad, when you have gone to board a plane, you stand at a certain distance, you stand exactly, and they take a picture of you. It's that facial recognition. So here's the side where that facial recognition is helpful. If that plane should go down for any reason, or there'd be a problem, first responders, those who are attempting to recover was on the plane. They now have a picture manifest, not just a list of names. There's a picture manifest that says, these were the people that were on this plane. These were the people that were on this cruise ship. This is who you're looking for. So yeah, I wholeheartedly get the idea that there's the bad side, but I also see, but I also see, I guess I try to look at the ways in which it's useful. And to be honest, I'm very used to that. Yeah, no, I'm like, like every time, and you and I have talked about this many times, I feel like technology, it's not all good. It's not all bad. It's how you use it. And being responsible in that use is so important. So I appreciate that. I'm going to shift a little from the technology, and I'm going to go back to the right to vote and fundamental rights as we move into 2024 and our Supreme Court. The things that the fundamental rights, not specifically listed in the Constitution is what caught my attention. And I think this is going to be part of the landscape as we enter 2024. What are the candidates saying? What are the candidates not saying? And what are the votes, what's the voting public saying regarding marriage, privacy, contraception, interstate travel, procreation? It struck me, I was listening to a news program two days ago, actually, yeah, it was two days ago. And the news program was talking about October 18th was World Menopause. And I paused because it was the first time I heard of it. Menopause? Menopause, not menopause, World Menopause Day. And the reason it made me pause is because it's not talked about. And as we talk about the society at large in our aging population, the impact of menopause is impacting people's ability to do more work. It's impacting people's ability to do more work. It's impacting the quality of their lives. And it's now become something that is not just whispered about, or you somehow navigate on your own. It's actually being talked about in HR departments. It's being talked in mental health circles. It's being talked about publicly and saying, you know, if you need some assistance, assistance is available to you. You don't have to suffer. You don't have to be the butt of jokes. Is it for creation? No, it's literally signaling that a woman is no longer able to have children or bear children. But for the longest time, it's been something that's not been discussed, but it's still part of who we are. I think of it as the going from being the maiden to the mother to crone. And our focus has primarily been on this one particular segment and not the other segments. And in some places, women feel like they've discarded after they are no longer a childbearing year. So I've said a lot. Let's go back to 2024 and fundamental rights. What do you foresee happening? I'll start. I mean, I think what's happened in the last maybe two years, I think since Rose been overturned, I think I've seen and experienced a reluctance for people to be very public about particularly women, about where, you know, what they feel about these rights. And I think they're going to show up. I hope they're going to show up at the ballot box, right? Because it's become difficult for a lot of people to have civil conversations around these issues. People vote with their feet, right? I think that's what we're going to see. I appreciate what you said, Tina, about the menopause issue, because again, we have a very uniquely female issue that for many years was kind of tamped down. Nobody talked about it. And the fact that people are starting to really look at these issues, raise these issues, start to form corporate rules and regulations and give people the right to have time off if they need to seek certain treatments and to have space where they can go if they're not feeling well and there's no retribution for that, I think this is a positive sign. But that's, I guess, balanced against people's reluctance to really talk about some of these deeper issues publicly. So that's just my take on it. You know, I think that that's a good point, Lorraine, is that there are some things that we should celebrate and be happy about what is happening now, because maybe not in the political arena, but at least in the arena of our work lives and our daily lives, there is light being shed on things that were formerly taboo. I'd never heard of menopause, Dave, but I think, hey, we should all own it, right? I've just not end at menopause. Freedom begins, actually, in many ways. But yeah, I think that there is a greater awareness among, say, companies and, you know, enlightened companies in terms of, you know, what the workforce is looking for, what they need to be concerned about, you know, that you didn't need to be concerned about the employee's experience in developing people and retaining people and caring about them. And that's sort of running counter to some of the forces we're seeing politically in terms of trying to cut back on people's rights. And I think maybe, as you say, that's where voting comes in, that that's what we have to make sure that, you know, people do have access to vote and to be able to vote easily, because there are so many shenanigans going on politically in ways to cut back on the community's right to representation. Yeah. And I also think that the fight is not over. I mean, I definitely see a rinse and foul women are treated versus men in the workplace. And I think we should keep going. Like, we have to fight for equality because we don't have it right now. From what I see, maybe you're seeing something different, but I'm just saying like we have a far away to go in an odd way. It's interesting when I talk to students and I think we should be, but we're not. And it doesn't matter. You know, you could be top of your class and still not have the same rights as men. And so I think for women, we have to keep the fight going personally, the same. So do they agree? I was encouraged though by going to my law school reunion and we had an affinity group meeting with the Asian law students, Asian alumni actually. And it was a big deal when I went to law school and we had a third women in that class. That was lots. And now we walk into this affinity group and it was mostly all women to the extent that one of my friends texted me like, we're the guys with that class. My last class was I had, it was 20 students, 18 were women, two were men. Whoa, amazing. Well, but that's dispute resolution. And I do think it's well, it's not. Yeah. So I teach mediation and negotiate. So this was a negotiation course. All right. But that was a little bit, yeah. Yeah. Women are more inclined toward anything to negotiation, mediation. I just feel like they kind of look at things more contextually. And so they understand like problem solving requires that you understand negotiation, mediation. But I don't know, you're right. I don't, I can't make a claim on that. But I just, I can say it wasn't like that 20 years ago when I started. Oh, okay. Lint. So I, I feel pretty good. That's good. I'm so glad. Oh no, on that topic of, you know, mediation and is it one that women tend to be drawn to? I mean, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I went to a talk. I have a top notch trial attorney who was here doing a summer talk in Hawaii. And he was talking about, he called it the wussification of the law because so many more cases were going into, you know, rather than the trial. There was the mediation and, you know, ADR, the alternative dispute resolution mode, which I think is a good thing. Just got people's pocket books. But it was interesting to hear that, you know, this going from the testosterone filled courtroom. I had a male colleague who called it ADR, alarming drop in revenue. Oh my God. And actually the people I worked with, I was doing construction a lot, a big firm. And it was all about like, kick them in the knees. You know, we got to, you know, we did not can do any of this ADR stuff out because, you know, we want to kill them. Yeah. Well, I think that's changed. My portfolio of work in the ADR space tends to be more arbitration. And I clearly recall my first class on mediating arbitration construction disputes. I was the only woman in the class. And during lunch, I sat with my members of my cohort and one of the other men at the table said, so what do you plan to do after class? And I said, well, I'm going to be arbitrating. I'd like to arbitrate construction cases. And he's still eating his food. And he says, you know, the only women I know in the arbitration space and construction arbitration space are secretaries. The other people at the table stop eating. And I hinted and I said, well, that's about to change. It kept on eating, but it is a very small space. That was in the early 2000. And even today, in terms of the other areas of ADR, arbitration, women in arbitration still tends to be a much smaller number. And efforts are underway, but it's still a space for both an opportunity. I agree. Yeah, no, I've been in trying to be a construction arbitrator for years. And I did that in all of my practice and very well versed in it. But they won't put me on the panel. It's like, I don't know, I just do think that women have, we do have barriers to go into. And I just, that's not right in my view. Why not? If someone worked hard in that area and they have the information and they have the expertise, why not? That's an interesting. Yeah, Tina, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like another access issue, right? Access to get on panels, access to information, access to networking. And how do we gain that type of access and help others to gain that type of access? And that should be part of fundamental rights when we look at the list. Because all of that matters. If you look at how that impacts your career, how it impacts your bottom line, how it impacts your earning potential, like there's a lot out there that I think are worth exploring in terms of what are fundamental rights. You know, I was looking at the list that you shared, Tina, and I think that there's a lot in there, but there's a lot not there that needs to be there. So, as we wrap up and the time has flown by, what suggestions, thoughts, vision do you have regarding fundamental rights? For the landscape ahead or suggestions that you have for others regarding fundamental rights? Well, I'll just mention that I've attended some webinars this past week. There's a group called How Women Lead that I'm just getting familiar with, and they're having a get-on-board week, just getting women ready for boards or honing their skills. And I love their credos. I can't remember all of them, but it was like, you know, say yes to helping others, sort of what we can do ourselves, and, you know, reinforce each other's voices, be unabashedly visible, you know, if you want something, just let people know so that we can help each other and be fierce advocates for each other. And I really like those credos. I would add to that, I love that, Louise. I would add supporting women in running for public office. Yes. I still don't think we have enough women. I know a lot of women are reluctant to run because of all the vitriol in the world, you know, all the backlash, you know, all the debates where people just beat each other up. But I think we have to find and support women for public office. That's the only way legislation is going to happen, and it's the only way that we're going to move some of these issues forward. Ditto on everything. But also, I think that having more women in technology who are making decisions at the core is also another piece that I think is really important. So hearing this makes me think about Shirley Chisholm and what she said, and all of you are nodding because you're wrong. We're all old enough to remember her. We're wise enough to remember her. And we're also wise enough to remember, because I think at some point, all of us have had to do this. We've looked for a seat at the table, or men. There was no seat at the table available to us. We brought out our folding chair to meet ourselves. We brought ourselves to the table. For those of you that are listening and watching this episode in the future, if you don't see a seat at the table, bring out your own chair. And don't be shy, embarrassed, uncomfortable with making your presence numb. Every voice needs to be heard. We all have something to contribute. On behalf of Chuck Crumpton, who is not with Thesis League, he's again on vacation. We want to thank you, Lorraine, Louise, Amy, for participating. This has been a wonderful discussion. I hope, Amy, that you'll consider coming back again in the future as a panel member. Lorraine, always good to see you. Louise, always good to see you. I want to thank you all for your words of wisdom and suggestions and tips. And on that note, we will see you in the next episode of It's Time for Responsible Change. Thank you. Thank you.