 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat, but be warned it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis it's getting even more muddy, which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all the smoking mirrors and doing so we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose and my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the Cannabis Underground. This is the Revolution. Welcome Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matthew and I'm here with my co-host Thousand Folds. Today we're going to be talking to Big Earn, Spindle and Local all from our Cannaluminati group. So welcome fellas, Thousand. Take it away. Yeah, welcome everyone. So sort of like the outdoor growing episode, we're hoping to start a little like recurring indoor growing series. And today we're bringing on, as Matt mentioned, some of our homies and we're going to talk through some, but this episode some pretty basic, basic indoor growing topics. And then at the end we'll kind of conclude with like a more open kind of philosophical question about you know what people think makes for a good growth. But to kick things off and to warm everyone up, I thought we would just go around and talk about how long have you been growing and what have you been growing recently or now? Maybe we start with Spindle, Michael. So I grew my very first plant in 1995, I think it was. And I just had started some seeds. I worked at a golf course at the time and there was an area off of the 13th hole that kind of had some trees and brush that they didn't clean up. And I just put some five gallon buckets out there with some seeds and grew my first plants that way. And it actually came out pretty decent. I think probably by 96, I started my first indoor that I could really call growing, you know, otherwise it was just a couple plants that water a few times during the summer. Well, I'm going to ask you each, I'm going to ask each of you more about like the actual journey. But for now, Michael, what have you been growing recently? Recently, I've been growing some SuperBoof, some sour from not so, some Matt's Riot Berry, which was excellent, some uppercut from Caleb, some Big Sur from Caleb, and just getting into some new stuff from PAK, some of the Blue Dreams and stuff like that. That's quite the line up. And then I always, I always have a few Quimby's in every run. Hell, Quimby. Yeah, that's a recurring feature of your runs, huh? That's great. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. We'll definitely come back to some of those plants later. How about Urn? Yeah, so I probably have been growing the shortest period of time out of all these people. I've been, I started growing in 2001. And just, you know, kind of got like a clone from a friend that also didn't know what they were doing and gave me spider mites on my very first grow, you know, that kind of stuff. And then just like really quick, I've always been like the kind of person that like hops into hobbies like headfirst. And that's what I am for this is just like super hobbyist and, you know, just getting to kind of like live like my 18 year old like dream of like being able to grow this shit that I saw on high times, you know what I mean? And yeah, so it's been a cool, it's cool. And as far as like what I've been running lately is, you know, stuff from the dudes in the group. I've got several Appalachia things going from high and monsoon. We're both East Coast, you know, and I like really have this like thing about like wanting to support people that are like local and like get stuff that's like being bred in my area and stuff like that. So I've been trying to support that. And obviously he's just like a sick fucking dude. So like it's cool. Yeah, you just happen to be supporting like one of the best breeders in America. Yeah, of course, it's easy to work when it's like dank, you know what I mean? But it's like so yeah, I have like some of his like a Bubba times D. Happy. I have a Santa Cruz right times. Happy had some happy at three going just ran his mule skinners. So I'm like really trying to look through his stuff, you know? When are you two going on the fishing trip? I don't know, but soon, hopefully any time whenever it be cool, dude. That'd be real cool. It's so cute. I'm jelly. Yeah, I'm jealous, too. Yeah. All right, local. How long have you been growing and what are you growing now? Yeah, so I started actually like flowering plants in 2016. So what is that like six, seven years? And right now, currently, I'm running some Astrick Death Star, Band-Aid Haze Seven and then Santa Cruz, wreck number six. From Pac. There is no reason to be putting Asterisks on that goddamn desk. I'm driving nuts, dude. That's Death Star, bloody. Give us some concrete. Tell us about the Asterisk one of you. Um, I don't know. I don't get it. So I don't know. I don't know if it's. I don't know what it is. It's just dank, you know, like it was it I mean. It's just very it's just a cut that's very hard to trace provenance on, like, yeah, from the direction it came. But like for the people who have experienced Death Star before and had it from like the Death Star crew, it's death. It's definitely definitely death star. If not, I think it's like the most perfect death star reproduction ever, you know, either way. I'll say as well that the Asterisk tells you so much about how much these guys care about what they know or don't know. And it's yeah, I think it's really sweet. I guess I can also add that within like the last year, it seems like everyone and their fucking mom's popping out with the Death Star. So I don't know. It's just like what what the hell grandma's death star. It made it out of it made it out of circles, right? Like it used to be a cut that was only in certain circles. You could only get it here in certain circles. But it's one of the few that like the real cut made it out of those circles into places where people were selling clones on the clone market. And because of that, it's accessible. And it's one of the few that like I think is a really dank line that made it into the clone market like the actual cut. And in this case, it's a good thing for probably to be gone. Yeah, yeah, in in hearing from you all, I did actually want to draw on one thing I think that was getting into. So we'll do another I want to do another round here in this warm up, which is what did it feel like that very first time you actually fly with something that very first time? Because recently, right, I got this feeling and it's totally unrelated. Like local has been setting up new like fish tanks for himself. And it kind of gave me that sense of like, it reminded me of that joy when I first set up like my first like growing space. Yeah, I kind of wanted to. Yeah, I kind of want to hear from each of you, like what that moment was like when you were first like actually growing. Well, you know, whenever you think that was can start with Michael again. To be honest, thousand, it was about a hundred percent fear. Just being super scared of getting caught. Yeah. Having to go in the middle of the night to cut the plant down and just hoping I don't get pulled over on the way home with it. That's real. Yeah. Like, I'd like to be like, oh, it was so awesome. It was awesome once it was dried and I was back at home, you know, with with the plants, but the actual process, the process was super scary. Yeah, I bet you taking it home would have been freaky that time as well. But yeah, it was nerve wracking. But, you know, once it was in the closet and I could actually look at it in the lights because I was always going at night to water and stuff and seeing like the nice pinks and purples on it. Like I was I was pretty fucking stoked, you know, and I was proud of myself, you know, like it's nice being able to do something for yourself, especially when you're young, you know, I imagine to make this this whole conversation pretty interesting, right? It's like there's several different generations of growers here from modern times that are only growing indoor to like my generation. And then all the way back to Michael's, because he was growing well before me, you know, all the way back. He's not that old, but it's so much older, bro. He was growing in the old days, bro. Well, what's a real kick in the balls is these guys like local and panda that have been growing for like such a short amount of time and they just hit home run after home run. Yeah, but like you see their pictures and it's just like, oh, what the fuck? You know, it reminds me of is like in skateboarding, like back in the day when when I would be skateboarding and doing tricks, like we'd be busting like 360 flips thinking we were so good. And you played like the Tony Hock game and see all this crazy shit you could do in the game. And now I go on Instagram and watch kids doing the Tony Hock moves for real in real life. And I couldn't even comprehend the gravity physics of any of it. It reminds me a lot of that with these guys. Like I didn't have a quick start. I had a brown thumb. I had a lot of failing to do. But it's like earn even just since he's been in our group, I've watched him progress just like and like jump me like a lot in how and how his product turns out routinely. And that's that's something else, man. It's something else to watch. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, for the record, I should say that for myself, I've been going only for about four years as well. So I'm in between earn and local in terms of growing experience, at least time, which I could say. Earn. Yeah. What was that initial moment like for you whenever you think that was? Yeah, I mean, I can remember it like full on like, you know, ordering, you know, I started indoor. So like I ordered like some shitty like Mars Hydro kit and like got like a four by four temp with like a light and everything. And I'm like sitting all this shit up in my basement just so, you know what I mean? Like super excited about it. I had like a whole four by four tent for one clone to start because I just like had no other seeds or anything. And I was just so like and I would just like sit down there with like a chair and with my tent open and just like smoke a joint and just like watch this fucking plan. You know what I mean? Like what I was doing. But I was just so into it. You know what I mean? I was just like, man, like I've wanted to do this for so long. And like just like for whatever reasons I haven't been able to. And now I'm able to and I'm just like it's just so cool to me. I still definitely have that feeling like when I like like I have the like, you know, whatever some some plant that I'm super stoked about and I'm getting ready to flip it. I'm just like, dude, I'm so fucking stoked to just see what's going to come out. You know what I mean? So it's still really fun to me. Hell, yeah, local. So my first time, like actually getting set up growing. I mean, I was like maybe 18 or something like that. And was obviously kind of broke. So like I bought piece by piece throughout like the first growth cycle. But like it was still fun to watch it because like it was, you know, it was growing. But I had like a shitty five bar spectra or something like that and a two by four tent and kind of just went with it. Nothing great. But I started learning each round after that. So I guess that says something. Was it like a particularly scary or, you know, exciting moment for you? Um, that was in a really like weird, you know, place in my life where I just didn't care about stuff. So not really. Yeah, but yeah, that's really it. That's an interesting contrast. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's the different generations, though, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't have to tell us, but I mean, as a context for this because you weren't necessarily like, I don't know, like it wasn't a passion when you started. Is that accurate or like why? Why were why were you so kind of like, I don't know, epithetic? I guess it was more so that I was interested in growing things like just plants in general. And when you're broke, you don't want to fucking buy weed, bro. Like that's the last thing you want to spend money on. Especially when eighths are forty five bucks a piece. It's like, fuck that, Dean. Yeah, all right. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I wonder if Matt actually wants to tell us about his first kind of moments. You know, like I've talked about it before, but my first moment after after I was on my own and decided I was going to grow by myself, I thought I was going to be smart and avoid paying all this high dollar for lights, right, because I figured I would outsmart everyone. So I went to Walmart and got some halogen grow lights that they called them halogen grow lights. And they were just basically halogen heat lamps. And I tried growing a seedling from bag seed with this halogen seed lamp. And it was the most painful thing when I when I showed my friend who was another grower at the time that was way more advanced than me. And I showed him and I was all proud of this. And I was like, is it supposed to be like this? And it was like a seedling, like, you know, a foot tall with like just little colleagues on it. He's like, dude, put that out of its misery now. And I remember so heartbroken. What? You can save it. It's a lie killing it. And he's like, bro, kill that, please. And yeah, so mine was not a good experience. Mine was a very disheartening experience. And it was one of those times where I had to realize just because you think you're like smart at shit. Like you can't just run headfirst into something that you know nothing about. Like going from my dad's shit when I was a kid to that was just 90 day. I had no place that I could outsmart anyone. So that was a big learning curve, you know? Yeah. I spent a good month wasting time on that being pulled seedling. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, it's really nice to hear from you all about about yeah, how you started, because I think as we've already seen, like it's very different for different people in different contexts. How we also kind of came to. How'd I put it? How we got to this indoor growing episode, actually, was I was actually trying to figure out a hydro episode with spindle here. And unfortunately, we couldn't get we couldn't we didn't manage to convince bittersweet to come on. And so we kind of adapted this to a more general like indoor growing episode. And in that time, I was starting to think more and more about less about the tech, you know, let's just like isolated conversations about tech and gear and stuff and more about I actually wonder what people's journeys, you know, individually were like. Michael, I think you started to get to this in your intro. I'd like to know, like. How did you get to the system or set up that you're using now? You know, how long did that take? How, you know, from a very broad, you know, perspective? And yeah, I'd like to hear from each of you about this. Like how how long did it take for you to develop your system to where it is and what were some of the major lessons along the way? I think in the beginning, it was really hard because I would buy like high times or Cannabis Canada, cannabis culture, magazines and I'd see the articles and I'd see the like the metal halide lights and stuff like that. But there was nowhere in Eugene that I could find that stuff for sale. So me and my buddies would have to drive all the way to Portland just to find a store that actually sold the lighting itself. You know, like I wish I wish those tents would have came out. I don't know when people started buying the grow tents or they started being made. But man, I wish those would have been around, you know, when I was younger because those things are just super convenient. As far as the system, my first closet grow was in just soil. You know, I kept doing, you know, after that first successful one, I kept doing research and I'd see articles and one of my buddies approached me with setting up his garage to do like a nutrient film technique. And we just bought a bunch of gutters from Home Depot and we'd let the water pass through and the plant sat in the gutters raised up on like hydroton little baskets. You know, and we had a good run in the winter and then the summer of the run just completely turned to shit because at the time I didn't understand, but it was the heat of the water. Like once the the garage started heating up, the water temperature started heating up. We start getting bacteria everywhere. That's the depth of it, dude. Yeah, and we didn't have anyone to ask. Yeah, no, there was there was no YouTube to look up videos on how to do it. So really, it took me a good five or six years to even figure out why that run didn't work, you know. So I had tried the nutrient film technique. I tried ebb and flow once I moved to California. That one seemed real simple, a lot of a lot of work. And then I saw somebody on the old forums. You know what? I think it was Ivan. I don't remember what he went by. It was Jack Mayhoffer. Yeah, yeah, I saw him do like a post with he was using cocoa, I think, but it was drained to waste. Yeah, yeah. And when I saw the drain to waste, it just all clicked to me because I was like, oh my God, that is so much easier and so much more precise. And I can just use, you know, a little condensate pump to get rid of all the runoff, you know, and there's not going to be any mess. And so once I saw those posts and I wanted to try it myself, it I knew I before doing it, I knew it was going to be the easiest way for me, you know, and now that I'm older, I'd, you know, I'd love to be an organic gardener. But I simply don't have the time, you know, with working as much as I do and the amount of work it takes. And I don't want to have any failed runs. I'm getting older. I want to make sure every run that I do I get to see the potential of the plants. Maybe it's not the, you know, 100 percent greatest organic knock it out of the park. But it's always good with the system that I run. Yeah. You know, it's easy to dial in. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So you've kept this current system for how long would you say? At least like, you know, loosely drained to waste. I've been doing for 10 years. Wow. Could you, OK, I'm pretty I'm a little bit ignorant about nutrient film. Like, could you give us a like a very like, you know, a high level? OK, so imagine. Have you ever seen an aero cloner? Yeah. OK. So the plant basically is suspended above where the water passes through. And the roots just hang down and we use you can use PVC pipes or gutters or whatever in a constant flow of water with nutrients in it is always bathing the roots. But it never stands still. So the water is always moving all the time. It's a little different than like, let's say. What is it? Oh, God. The one where the water. Deep water culture. Yeah, recirculating deep water culture. It's different than that. Where in in that system, the water sits pretty stable in one spot. And then you aerate that water. Yeah. This one, the water is always moving. It's always passing through. Yeah, which is also why when it gets heated and a little bit warmer, but all the water stays warm and it gets really super aerobic. Yep. Crazy. Yeah, it's definitely it's it's super difficult. You have to you'd have to spend the money and really be on your game to have like a large scale nutrient film technique down. Yeah, some do you set it down? But yeah, exactly. It took chillers and all kinds of stuff. Right. A lot of expenses and once is one problem overnight and your plants would be dead like a pump went out or something or your chiller went out, you could be pretty much finished in 24 hours. Yeah. I like I grow in Rockwell now for the drained waste because I can get away with a lot. If something breaks and I don't see it for 12 or 14 hours, the plants are still fine. Yeah, you know, I've gone more than 24 hours without watering in Rockwell before and still been able to pick up and just go. Oh, yeah. You know, so it's it's very flexible. I did have a general question for you about, you know, the very broad field of hydro. Would you say that over the last few years, one technique has kind of emerged as the most popular or a favorite? And is it this one? Is what bigger and would call the meta? Oh, drained waste. Absolutely. Yeah, like if you're doing anything on scale, which I'm not. But if you were like like one of the big facilities, I'm pretty sure 90, 95 percent of them are running drained waste. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So over time, people have converged like towards this this approach. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I'd say for the deep water culture, that seems like mainly a small home grow situation where someone wants to go two or three huge plans. I rarely see anybody stick with DWC for like a whole career of growing. It's usually like a a path someone takes for a while. You know, there are people who have it just so rare to see someone be like a hardcore or DWC dude, you know, it seems like a lot of extra work. Hot, man. That's what I was going to say. That's that's I did that for a little bit. It's a lot. It's a lot of work. You go and you tell us about, yeah, tell us about what you learned. Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I started with soil just like happy for all under whatever, you know, like from the hydro shop and got some like the general hydro one part nutrient to start. It's like a flora nova and like a wait, sorry. Can I just ask you here? Were you watching Mr. Mr. Canuck grows? Oh, absolutely. I watched Mr. Canuck. His fucking editing is next level. I mean, as far as like cool, Mr. Canuck, he so he's just his like he has really good editing, nice cameras. Shout out, Mr. Canuck, bro. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not. So I'm not going to trash this, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess I was watching stuff like that and was I went to the hydroponic store, talked to this guy. He sells me a bunch of shit that I don't need, basically. And I go home and just, you know, grow some shitty plants for a little bit, you know, yeah. And then I got really at some point, I don't know why, but I got really obsessed with like the fact with like soil that like I couldn't control and like like if there was some kind of nutrient excess or, you know, or whatever it was, I just couldn't control it quickly enough, you know what I mean? So I would like I got obsessed with this feeling of like needing to be able to like really monitor each of those parameters with like pH and stuff, which is what led me into DWC. Yeah. So I went to DWC and, you know, I'm not growing at scale either, but I am doing like a perpetual kind of deal. And I had this one run where like a lot. I'm going to echo a lot of the same stuff, Spindle said. I had this one. I had this one run where I was growing autos at this point in DWC, which like, oh, dude, crushing. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Right. And they they were looking great one day. I mean, like great, like the best plants I've ever grown. And then the next day they're like drooping in brown. And I was like, what is going on? You know, I'm like trying to save these plants and I couldn't, you know, like they died like like three plants died. And that was like my first real failure where I was like, I couldn't get anything from the grove, you know what I mean? And was like mid flower, you know, and I put a lot of time into it. So I was like, man, that's sucks. So I started reading into it and stuff, checking my water temperature really frequently. I ran into the same thing. Water temperature starts getting up to like 72, something like that. You need to be like 65. So then I'm like, I'm looking at like water chillers and I'm like, man, I'm going to have I'm running like a four by four and a two by four. And I'm going to buy a water chiller for each temp. Like, are you kidding me? That's seven hundred dollars in water. And I was like, no, I'm not doing that. So so that was the end of my deep water culture career. I did like a couple of runs in it and it really taught me a ton about just like managing pH and managing BPM and stuff like that. But it was just too expensive for what I was doing. And I also wanted to be able to hunt like, you know, a good population size. And that was tough for me to do in deep water culture as well. And, you know, you also there's a lot of things you also, if it's recirculating, then you know, there's you have like all the plants are feeding from the same reservoir. So then like you aren't it's I mean, that's not accurate. You know, you're not controlling like what each is getting and stuff. So it's just a lot of things. So then I ended up coming back into soil and tried to do the organic kind of field for a little bit, which realistically was me using organic nutrients and doing drained waste. Um, you know, and so I wouldn't necessarily even say, like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm an organic, you know, I don't mean that I have any real good base for that. But that led me up into where just the one drained the waste cocoa with can of nutrients. And I went down to just baseline can of A and B grew plants for a few runs with that. And then now I'm adding stuff in to just like see how it affects stuff because I was adding like silica and all this all these different like additives and just not really having like an understanding of like why I was doing it, you know, so. Oh, yeah, let's come back to silica later, because I think it's one of those ones. So your current approach and how long have you been doing that? Oh, it's pretty stable now. Yeah, I mean, basically, I've been doing the same stuff for, I don't know, I've ran through I'm on my second bottle of can of now. So I don't know how long that things, you know, I mean, not that long. I mean, I've only been growing for two years. So, you know, you know, yeah. But I just feel like I've got I've done I did a bunch of approaches like really quickly because I just wanted to see it all, you know what I mean? Yeah, and now have settled on the drained the waste kind of thing. And yeah, yeah, remind me to come back to like additives later. I think we'll have a nutrients kind of recap later. But yeah, OK. Local, tell us about your, you know, current system, how you got there. Yeah, so right now I'm running Coco drained to waste using canna, AMB, I've been rocking. I'll just say one thing before we get any further, because I know three of us use canna. We are not sponsored, affiliated. We're not marketing for canna. Just happens that, you know, we like it. Sorry, local, you're all good, dude. So I've been rocking that for about, well, not canna for two years, three, well, three years now. Fuck, but I've been doing Coco drained to waste for three years. And I kind of got into that because I was, you know, doing organic air quote organic grows and door and wanted a little more control, more, you know, space to pop seeds. So Coco was my best option. Yeah. Yeah. Any like in terms of like what you experienced, like did you have to go through any like, I don't know, big failures or anything like that? My first one, which was overfeeding some plants, not all plants responded negatively, because I was my first run of Coco was using Jack's three, two, one. And it was a little high in and for some varieties. So, you know, some things weren't the best. Other things were pretty good. Then I switched over to something that was in a little less high in nitrogen or at least had, you know, calcium heavily associated with nitrogen. I don't know. I don't think it's a good source for every variety, per se, for calcium. But yeah. When you use Jack's, do they still have like have is it a bright blue color still? Um, I remember one solution being blue. I don't remember which one, but it was like blue and then kind of like a brownish one. Yeah, because I always when back in the day, the first time I ever tried Jack's, I remember being like this super bright blue and I was like, why do they add dye to their nutrients? Like that's so weird. Like a plant can't want dye, you know? Yeah, I'm not sure. Maybe it's just like the raw, I don't know, the form that it comes in. I don't know. Like it's weird. Yeah. But I don't know. No clue. While y'all were talking, I didn't kind of have some thoughts around some of the trade-offs between like the various styles. And for me, one of the things that seems to be common between, you know, quote unquote organic and quote unquote hydro is there's some degree of finessing and troubleshooting before you arrive at like a stable approach. Would you all agree with that? Like it feels to me like for both of them, once you've kind of dialed it in enough, you can kind of take it for granted at that point and kind of run with it. And the interesting thing for me as someone who is still like, you know, Pete based potting mix is that, you know, one of the trade-offs there is that I don't have to do as much kind of fine tuning. I'm kind of buffered and like kept safe, you know, in certain ways from things. But I may not at the same time achieve like, say, quite the same degree of like stability as like a hydro grow or, you know, something like that. Yeah. What are your thoughts on some of these things? I imagine I imagine some of you have factored these things in, like what the risks are, you know, set up costs, stability, you know, those kinds of trade-offs kind of open to the floor, just kind of riffing of it. You know, go for it. No, go ahead, local, please. Yeah, so I was just going to say, you know, one of the big drivers for me switching to cocoa is I wanted to have, you know, it's a growth of a hydro plant, but not have to invest in an entire, you know, hydro type set up. So cocoa, you know, I can handwater it and get really, really good results and, you know, really fast growth in a tiny container. So I thought it was a really cheap approach to having a semi-productive system. Yeah, totally. You know, sometimes I think one of the things with like, you can grow organic in peat, right? Like that's more of a soil mix, thousand. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's nice about growing that way is you have like a higher floor, you know, yes, you it's it's easy. It's not a lot of work to come out with a really like a good product. Yeah, you know, like you'd have to really fuck something up to grow garbage that way. You know, whereas like if you take a hydro system, a couple of mistakes or a couple of misunderstandings about certain things, you can grow some really shitty weed. You know, it's fragile. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the benefits of doing it the way that you do it. I also think it's a lot harder to hit this like a really high ceiling with organic. I think you need to really, really be good and be on your game. Have an understanding of what you're feeding and when and when those nutrients are available that I think is a lot easier to hit in hydro. You know, I like that. You know, and I consider what local does hydro as well, even if it's not a system, you know, because he's controlling what the plants are feeding and what's available to them all the time, you know, going back to like the ebb and flow and the deep water culture. What I didn't like about those systems is that, number one, you have to completely empty the reservoir, like dump it all out and then change it every week because the plant as it's getting watered, especially if the water is recirculating all the time, it's going to pull what it wants out right away. So early in the week, it's getting everything it wants. Whereas as the week progresses, those nutrients are going to be less and less available to the plant because it's already drank them. And what that also does is that alters the pH of what's available to the plants. So you're having to stay on top of it. Whereas the way I think all three of us are doing it now, we always know the plant's pH is the same wherever we want it. And it's always getting a constant supply of the nutrients that it wants and has available to it, you know. So you're not having to worry about certain things getting low when we don't have the big systems that are monitoring what's coming out of the plant after watering. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like when I had that kind of experience in DWC where you'd get into late flower and the plants would just not really be eating and they'd just be drinking more than they're eating. And then all of a sudden you check your reservoir and your pH is like went from 6.2 to like 5.5 overnight. You know what I mean? And it's like you see just shot up. Yeah. Right. And now you're like trying to like do this math in your head. Like how the fuck do I how much water do I add back in to cut this? Like, you know, it's just a lot of variables. And there's been a lot of these times where I'd be in my basement just fucking dumping water everywhere. You know what I mean? Just fucking getting rid of those reservoirs. And it's just it's a lot of work, man. If you're just in your basement, like dumping buckets of water, it's a lot. Yeah. If you're lucky enough to have a drain in your basement. Yeah, I have a I have a I have a soap pump down there. Thank God, you know, yeah, dude, that's a nightmare. I could just think about that in California where there aren't many basements. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're talking like sometimes, you know, if you have say you have four plants with a reservoir, that's like damn near 20 gallons of water. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's a lot of water, a lot of nutrients, a lot of everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's it's really interesting that all these different ways of evaluating these different grow approaches. Like I really like what spindle said about basically, I think he was unpacking what consistency means in a way, like having a higher floor, but maybe like a lower ceiling is is like more consistency. And that's a trade off, right? But then you have different kinds of trade offs like like I was saying with hydro or soil less, you get the system for it. The trade off is that the labor is not necessarily during the run when you have fine tuned everything, but it is the process of actually fine tuning it all to begin with and getting it stable to begin with. That's where the labor goes. For organic, it's it's similar in the sense that like your ability to prepare your soil, troubleshoot it, test it. All of that is upfront labor that once you want. Yeah, sure. Once you've kind of gone through that, then your goals are like, you know, easier, but you have to do all that labor up front. And then if you're in like a, you know, your hand watering and you're, you know, potting mix or whatever like me, the labor is constant, right? It's about hand watering and keeping an eye on things and tailoring stuff to that. Yeah. And the last sorry, sorry, you go, you go in. No, that's I was just going to add that that's kind of the thing that I like about drain to waste is that it just allows me to not think about the nutrients anymore, you know, to make to a certain degree. I get to a point where I can just mix my stuff. I know what my water is coming out, whatever, you know, I mix it, I feed it. And then I'm able to just focus on a lot of other things, like just good watering practices and like making sure your environment's like in a good place and like making sure that your plants are looking good. You know, just things like that. And I think that that's just like much more important than focusing on any certain nutrient line in itself, you know, to a degree. And I definitely want to make that point, too, because like I've grown good. What I think is good week with general hydro, with fruits, organic, with like, you know, tons of brands and like it's just more about like paying attention to the plant. And like, I think like good watering practices and stuff personally. Yeah, yeah, we definitely come back to that about you go, Michael. Sorry, thousand. I just want to reiterate that I'm not saying that organic has a low ceiling because I'm saying like a really good organic garden has a really high feeling. I was just more about just like tea. Yeah, it's it's it's a lot easier to get to somewhat high ceiling in hydroponics than it is an organic. It takes, in my opinion, it takes some real skill to hit that high ceiling. But organic gardeners that do their products, absolutely amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should. Yeah, definitely not trying to imply that. Like, yeah, when I say like higher or lower ceiling, I do mean that very broadly and like that's still me to. I don't want to offend anybody that's people get super fucking pissed off. And yeah, I've seen organic though. There's a reason why we have five people here. So if we get if we get in trouble, they're five targets. So we didn't gang up and take them out, right? Yeah, five or one or that to that, too. Well, I think the last the last thing I think for me that emerged from our conversation as well is like the different forms of like risk mitigation. So for example, like again, like Michael was saying, if something goes wrong for me in like a peat based potting mix, there's usually time for me to resolve that. Whereas something going wrong, I imagine in like a DWC setup, like Ern was saying, it happens very, very fast. And your recovery window, your time, your window in which to recover is like much smaller, right? Yeah, I mean, this is cool. I think this is the reason again, this is the real reason. I think why I wanted a bunch of us on is because we could actually talk through some of these like nuances, whereas, you know, you get those like click baity videos that are like, oh, hydro versus peach or like organic versus synthetic outside of like any context and like, yeah, bad information. I think yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think like any style, if you just take the time to learn it and, you know, you're going to grow a good wheat, you know, you just have to be willing to learn how to grow plants. That's ultimately the end goal there. You know, it doesn't matter about the nutrient line. You need to learn about like how to grow plants. Ern, like, you just have to mentally prepare yourself for someone in the comments to be like, so what's the best approach? Right. Well, there's no best approach, though. That's the problem, you know what I mean? The best approach is what works for you, you know? And that's why I'm also like a big thing about like getting seeds, you know, like all everybody, like when I came in to growing, I saw all these websites selling clones, you know what I mean? And I had no idea what that was about. I mean, you know, I'm just some random dude that like wanted to try to grow a weed and then I get online and I see there's I can buy a cut of literally you name it. You can buy it and it's like they're a thousand dollars. You know, I don't know. And yeah, so I just really think that people should get seeds and find plants that grow good in their environment and what they're set up. And that's the way that you will find good weed. Yeah, yeah, I think we're definitely approaching that that broad topic of like, you know, what makes for a good grow. But before then, I did want to kind of. I think who who was I talking to about this must be in a local. We were talking about uncertainty around popular additives. I thought there'd be an interesting little segue into that. So we were talking about silica, yeah, right? As one of the additives that is very popular and commonly prescribed, but also like not not really knowing. With any certainty, like whether those things actually make a difference, kind of curious for like y'all to go around and think about like, I don't know, have there been additives that you've used that you're like, I don't know if this is just superstition or like, I don't know if this is just dogma or, you know, whatever. I mean, silica is that one for me. That's a big one for me. Um, I think the conversation we were having was about how I'm I'm always trying to just figure out better ways to like, when to water my plants and like when to like how like, I don't know, like I don't really necessarily want to mix every nutrient that I'm going to use into a res and just like feed it all in one go. Sometimes I'll just break it up a little bit, you know, and I had mixed some silica in with my canna just to see like what it would do and it precipitated like pretty bad because silica like drives the pH up like insane and like all this stuff. And then it's like, I don't know. It just that's one for me that like, I have done it with and without side by side on the same exact plan and I can't tell a difference personally. Oh, I remember we were talking to Farmer Dan as well. And he was saying that he did think there was a difference in I think he said it was like stem thickness or something that he could tell. Or yeah, does anyone else I'm looking at all your asses in the silica conversation right about now. Which kind of silica were you using? That's important. Oh, so I yeah. So I've used like a couple of different kinds, but I mean, like the dry potassium silica. OK, so that's that's one thing that I think like I think you guys know me. I am down this block when it comes to organics and nutrients. Like it's just never been an interest of mine. But one thing I have learned is that potassium silica is something great in gardens if you're like reusing your soil, especially because in cannabis, it takes so long for it to be consumed. So there's unless you're reusing your soil and reusing your medium, throwing silica in in the potassium silica form isn't going to do much. But there is, you know, stuff like power SI. And again, not so good by anyone, but power SI, which is a I've used and I was going to say I've used that one as well when I was doing the water I was using there. And that's my favorite thing. But I don't use it the way everybody else does, because the way I found it works best for me was adjusting nitrogen deficiencies and like calcium magnesium deficiencies on the fly. Whenever I used it, I would use it in concert with other nutrients to make it it would almost be like mainlining it to the plant, like watching it watching it change before my eyes. Like within a few hours, I would see major changes and how quickly it would uptake other nutrients. As far as what the monosilicic acid, which is what power SI is, was doing itself, I mean, of course, it's going to increase the stem strength and structure. That's what silica does. And it's a more effective, readily available silica. But how it helps carry other nutrients is super, super interesting to watch. And that's been my favorite thing for it. But when I screw up my plants, it helps me adjust it on the fly and get it back to the health like instantly. And you always notice it to you because your plants will immediately just go pray straight up. It's quite good for it. That's that's what I use as a pH up. Oh, interesting. Really? The power SI? No, monosilicic acid. Oh, my power SI I only use as a full year fee. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Because my reservoir sterile. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I certainly won't I can't say that there's no benefit for silica, obviously. I just think that like for me personally, like I've focused more on like up in calcium and just that good watering practices, honestly, like just knowing like just like literally that on it. Like I say that all the time, but no shit. Just like waiting for the pot to be light and then watering it then and like learning what your pots feel like when they're light and stuff like that has probably been like the biggest thing that has made my plants like look healthy. I mean, that is I mean, it's so like if you get on Reddit right now and you look at all the beginner posts about like my plants look like shit, I bet 90% of them are just over watered. Oh, I'm sure. Absolutely. We're not realizing about pH fluctuations and thinking it's like the wrong kind of nutrients. Am I using the wrong kind of nutrients? A lot of times it's just not using the plants and just not taking the nutrients at all. I mean, we can do a little segue here and talk about like troubleshooting because I think that as a kind of process as well, because I think that sort of to me, it's kind of interesting as someone who's still pretty new. Like if you see something going wrong, you know, where does your brain first go and what are the kind of like successive stages like like Aaron said for me, initially, I always did assume it was watering because for whatever reason, for the first couple of years, it was that was a high thing to figure out or I don't know why like the dry wet cycle thing was just like, I don't know why it was still confusing to me. But I'm kind of curious to know whether y'all have like any kind of I don't know any kind of sequence of parameters to look through when you're troubleshooting a problem. Maybe start with local locals and real quiet as you passed out. Yeah, I don't I don't even know what additives locals using and I want to know that too. Yeah, so I guess in terms of additives, the way I kind of see additives is if all your essentials are in check, then like additives are really cool, but it's like sometimes it might be best to adjust your main feed and then consider additives after the fact. And I think Aaron was kind of mentioning that in his working with Kana. You know, but I think that's kind of the way I see additives is using them. Have you ever seen any any real benefits from any particular attitude local? I guess it depends what you're trying like to achieve. Like if it's an actual like deficiency, maybe like or maybe you want to add a little more extra like, I don't know, calcium like, I don't know, P cal is pretty nice. I like that. That's helped me a lot. I don't use it every watering maybe like once every other week or something. But can you tell us a bit more about that one? Calcium phosphate, I think is like the chemical nomenclature if you will. But it has a good amount of calcium and a good amount of phosphorus. It's a nice additive for like flour. Yeah, I really like it as well. I don't like lack calcium by any means, but like it doesn't hurt to add a little extra. I also find that under LEDs, your plants will definitely benefit from calcium. You know, our other additives just because they're metabolizing, you know, maybe a little faster or whatever. But yeah, that's kind of my take on additives. Have you played with anything else that's been interesting? You know, no, not really. I really all I use is canna, AB, maybe some like some of their PK, but I really don't ever use it. I kind of just add like a little bit of P cal every, you know, two weeks. And then sometimes I'll do one of the nectar of the God's bottles, but like that's just like sugars really for the bacteria that I inoculate my cocoa with. I know it sounds kind of intuitive, but like it's still it still does something I assume, right? You know, you're establishing a beneficial relationship. My EC isn't too extreme, you know, it's it's nothing exaggerated. You know, I still use my go all through my growth. I use my go when I'm transplanting and all that stuff. I put it directly on, you know, do you guys notice a difference from not using it to when you do use it? I do. Yeah, I do kind of like I like to use it like especially like a transplant with my clones. I'll inoculate the roots then and I don't know, man, like it could just be like it's like evaluating the roots is like hard sometimes, right? If they're like all looking pretty healthy. So like but it does seem like they form just like more thicker roots, you know, I don't know. I think it just helped like my kind of thing that I'm thinking about is like if there's waste material in the soil and stuff like that and the bacteria are just like kind of like they're able to help with that. I don't know. I'm growing in small pots as well like local. So yeah, anything I can get to help is good. I do want to say for the record that there are a number of things I use that I've never systematically verified as like being beneficial, but I still use every every rot. So yeah, I used to use like 17 bottles of advanced nutrients. Yeah, yeah, and you didn't necessarily know what what they're all doing, right? Yeah, no fucking clue and the formulas are 10 times better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that was the thing that I think like additives that have like I've really noticed alpha this. So what I did was when I switched to canna. I switched over to cocoa and all I grew with was canna and no other no other additives nothing for the entire from start to finish and then I added back in the calcium phosphate that locals talking about and I noticed like the transition like from like when they start to stretch when they like start to slow down on stretching into flower I was I don't know. They just looked a lot healthier around that time period for me and like the whole stretching period using the calcium phosphate the calcium phosphate seems the plants just look healthier comparatively. Local is there a particular brand of calcium phosphate that you use? Shit, not really. Just I guess any that you can find at your like garden center. I'm not a I'm not a bill the soil guy but bill the soil sells calcium phosphate really cheap. Yeah, 25 pound bag for like 20 bucks and it's like a tea spoon per gallon so it lasts forever and like the thing is is like it has to be watered in solution if that makes sense so like the particulate has to be in the solution. Yeah, so you have to use like sap and then or some kind of others or like something to hold the calcium in solution. Like the actual rock particles because it's rock phosphate it like it's derived from rocks. It doesn't dissolve. No, it doesn't sadly. So I use I use the sap the like sap and then from I get it from crybaby and just mix it with it and it's like a it holds it in suspension pretty well. No, I also alternatively have top dressed with it before and just watered it in so I've used it before like at transplant like I put it in my root zone as well just like throw a little teaspoon, you know, sprinkle some that helps them adjust as well. Interesting. Okay. Alright, well anything else on any other like notable or interesting additives. I think they're completely unnecessary but that's just a power si and maybe a full year of calcium or kelp like I would kind of just maybe but other than that, I think the nutrient companies are so on point at this point. Yeah, additives are really they're unnecessary. Yeah, a lot of them are. Yeah, I love power si because it helps with the stretch. So if I pull your feed power si every three days during the first 20 days of flower, my plants won't eat long eight too much and I can keep the canopy a little more even. No, that's about all I have for you. There was a moment when Matt left and I thought he would you know, Matt's actually kind of confessed to me in private that like growing conversations for him. So I thought he was going to do that like I'm going to go to the corner store for some milk and then just not not return but he's still here. No, what actually happened is you know, I've been using this proxy today and it ran out of steam already just by starting this episode. It's already dead of batteries from a whole battery. So I was pissed. I had to go get the other thing that I used live review. Yeah, live review. I mean like really it's already dead. I don't smoke that much on a thing. Come on now. You but come on. It sucks. Okay, well, I did want to move on to again. I think quite a philosophical topic which was troubleshooting. I think earn kind of gesture towards it before I'm just curious like do you have any general thoughts on like your troubleshooting process or advice for the noobs who are like, you know, trying to figure out what's going on with their plant plants. Hmm. I'd say generally the answer if you're if you're just learning the answer is generally not going to be more fertilizer. It's most likely going to be less water. Yep. And less intense lighting. You know, you can't trust everything you hear. I know the LED companies they're constantly pushing, you know, these lights at 12 inches give you 1400 PPF D or whatever that is. You're really asking for trouble with that shit. You can get away with 6700 par and just watering your plants less and making sure the environment itself is good. You know humidity and temperature. They're going to do a lot more for a beginner grower than trying to really blast your plants. You don't have to grow like the jungle boys. You know, like that's you don't, you know, those guys they have perfect facilities. You can get away with just taking it slow and easy and having beautiful plants. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. If I would have if I could like tell myself like, you know, starting out again like what to do. I would go straight to like a two part drain away system and I would learn it like the back of my hand and I would dial my environment in and I would, you know, it's so it really like like what spindle was saying earlier how he was like, well, maybe it's not like maybe it's not the best as like some, you know, rings out in Mendo with like the best soil in the world growing the best weed and you know, all this stuff, but it's like maybe the ceiling isn't that high, but it's pretty good. I mean, it's better than anything I can get around here and that's I mean, for me, that's, you know, that's the goal here. Yeah. Yeah. We're actually getting pretty close to like, yeah, what makes for a big grow and I'm still like really excited for that part of the combo, but local thoughts on like troubleshooting slash, you know, what advice would you give to people? Um, I mean, how frequently are you watering your plants is a question. Um, I'll be honest, like a handful of my problems, maybe within the last three years. If they're even problems, I guess they are. It's just I acknowledge that me not, you know, watering them one night, you know, gets my plant a little pissed off, but God damn it. I did that thing where I forget what we were talking about troubleshooting. Oh, yeah. And all advice to people. Yeah. Um, I don't know. Just, you know, keep on schedule with your watering. Um, like spindle said, don't overfeed. Um, what else just make sure your environment isn't too extreme. Like you don't want it to extreme in humidity or you don't want it to extreme in heat. I mean, you just got to learn how to adjust your parameters to get your plant to grow. Ideally, I'm not really too. I mean, I'll do it like for the sake of getting my plants happy, but I'm not going to monitor and, you know, have like graphs and shit display my VPD, you know, um, but yeah, just that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I think what you and spindle both have implied as well is sometimes it's not just one parameter in isolation that's wrong. It's actually like an interaction between multiple parameters. So if you're blasting the plants with light and you're not feeding enough, you know, there are two approaches to that you can up the feed or you can load the lights or you can do both. Um, and they, they do all interact, right? So this is a complex system and one of the difficulties with troubleshooting is that you may see symptoms and assume that the symptoms tell you one thing, but actually these are downstream consequences of like something else happening further upstream, so to speak. So the other thing I would mention in this is also if you're making changes to not make more than I would say one change at a time, ideally if you can afford, if you can afford not to gamble, um, because if you start changing multiple variables or parameters at once, you're not really going to know what's doing what. And for me, when I was starting out getting to these like manic flurries, uh, trying to fix, fix things, you know, I tried to change like two or three things at a time and then not know what was actually working. Um, we're not working. Yeah, I think like something that I do now like in my own practice, like for, uh, the troubleshoot, the first thing I will do is like if I see a plant that just looks bad, I would just water it with just nice clean, just, you know, pH water, just like nothing in it and just see how the plant responds in that way. Um, I've also, you know, before I've like just literally watered plants until they will fade. I just like have taken the nutrients away and veg to just see what it does and how long it takes for it to happen. Um, and it does, it's not like you're good. If you don't feed your plants one time, they're not going to die. You know what I mean? Like they can make it one time about it. And so, um, I just think that like the propensity of new growers to like overfeed is so, it's so easy. I mean, even me, like I got the nectar for the God stuff, um, to just kind of mess around with and just going off of like what they recommend had my plants like super curled up, like on nitrogen and stuff. You know, like it just takes time. You got to learn where your nutrients are and stuff. You know what I mean? There's not going to be a substitute. Uh, there's not a cure all answer. You know, you got to just kind of go through it and more of them. Uh huh. Yeah, totally. And I think there is definitely a culture of more is better and we're going to work. We definitely got unpacked that. Um, maybe a sick just to take a break, maybe from some of the like strategy and tick and philosophy stuff. I didn't want to ask y'all what your favorite things to run ever have been just so that we can like, yeah, have a little shift of tone. Um, maybe we start with local this time. Local, like, can you tell us what your favorite things ever have been to run? Um, my favorite thing ever. Uh, that's a pretty obvious one. I would say as of now, uh, it's a sweep. You can pick that. I have two or three. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, that one I've had for like three years now, I popped it from seed. I mean, it's really, it's a bit more about it. Like it's lineage and stuff. Yes, please. Um, so yeah, uh, bittersweet, uh, SD. Um, one of our homies made that using, um, two P91 S1 selections from packs that he got from that, um, and as a result of those two parents crossing, uh, he made the sweep. Um, and yeah, it's, it's a really fun cross. I saw some really cool things. Um, really potent, nice smells, nice taste, nice bag appeal. I mean, like, it kind of checks all the boxes. Like, I know everybody says that, but like, man, this, this stuff is like, I kind of wish the P91 got a little more hype than it has now. You know, just simply based off of the stuff that I've seen from the crosses. It's, it's put out cool. Uh, Michael, you know, instead of, instead of me saying a particular plan, um, can I go off like my favorite run that I've ever had? Yeah. Hell yeah. Oh, okay. So, uh, when I first got the Bubba Cush in 2001, I set up a room, uh, to do ebb and flow. And I'd never tried it before, but I thought, you know, I've read enough about this. I've got a bathroom right next to this bedroom and I'm going to go for it. Um, I had very little understanding about, you know, how many times to water and things like that. Well, uh, I was growing in hydroton and I misunderstood the watering schedule for ebb and flows. So what I was doing was I was just flooding the table one time every 12 hours. And, uh, the strange thing about this is that by under watering that Bubba Cush, I was able to get that thing so big that it grew next to the OGs the same height. And I think that extra stress just really brought something out of the Bubba Cush. Um, on top of that, I, I, at some point I started getting fungus gnats in one of the tables and I bought in this stuff called natural and, uh, mid flower. I think I was using probably twice as much as I was supposed to be. So the reservoir when it would pump in would almost look like a melted chocolate milkshake and just smelled God awful. But for some reason that batch of Bubba Cush came out with just beautiful huge nugs. They'd actually out yielded and outsized the OG Cush that was in the other table. And it had the most beautiful lime flavor to it, beautiful neon green color. And, uh, I would say it was one of my most uneducated and probably it potentially could have been my worst run ever, but the stars aligned and it just turned out to be like my most fantastic favorite run of Cush. So were they like lasting lessons from that for you? You know, not really. This is just like a weird one off. Yeah, because the OG came out pretty shitty on the next side of the room. So I knew it couldn't handle that kind of dryback, but I learned with the Bubba, if I really wanted that thing to move and move fast and not take three months to veg, I needed to really put some some some dry stress into that plan. And it just made it into something magical. Yeah, it definitely is a fascinating topic like the different individual plants and their different tendencies and needs, right? 100%. Anything that I put in the table with like the super super short Afghans like Bubba or let's say Matt's berries like the riot berry. It's really hard not to overwater them next to my other more OG leaning hybrids. You know, so you really have to pick out what's going to be running on that reservoir if they're all getting the same feed at the same times. So yeah, that was definitely a huge lesson. Yeah, it's a big learning curve. Yep. Going to full Afghans. Yep. That's cool, man. Thank you. Aaron, favorite plants or runs? Yeah, I mean, kind of like the two plants that I've kept the longest now at this point have been the LA times bubblegum. And then I have bored again from crybaby that I've kept. Um, it's born again is the first time that I ever had to penalty. So it's born again. A diesel cross. What? No born again is it's the white lodge cut of clockwork orange to the cheese sour lemon tie. Um, yeah, and it's like, uh, it's kind of, I think it's like a little bit of a like talking to crybaby. It was like supposed to be like a little bit of a joke because it's like a little haze like, uh, like the way it grows and stuff, you know, um, and anyways, it does. It's a super vigorous plant. The first time I ran it, it was, uh, well, I flew to New York for the weekend and came back and it was like touching my light. And like some of it was like above my light, you know, just like very, very, very vigorous plant. Um, but yeah, first, her penalty for me, which was like, I mean, dude, like I love terpenaline now, you know, so like that's like a really cool. I really like that smell and stuff. You know, and then the LA Terpenaline syndicate. What's up? Terpenaline syndicate. Oh yeah. Yeah. Terpenaline is great. It's so far, it seems like it makes everything better. Uh, I don't know, but then the LA times bubble gum that I have is, um, pretty racy and just like a short finishing plant and it was like the first plant from like a legit reader that I grew like CSI, you know what I mean? CSI is like, yeah, he would like, there was like runs where I just ran seeds of stuff that I didn't care about because I was scared I'd kill him. So that was the first run that I popped that was like, I'm not going to kill these plants for sure. So dear. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, has anyone here actually ever come close to, oh, sorry, you may have already mentioned some of this. Like what's the worst state your plants have ever been at? Yeah, I've killed a crumb. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how bad do you want to get bro? Like I remember when I first learned about micronized sulfur and the spraying water will sulfur. Um, someone else has given me like totally different ideas on how to treat PM at the time. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you need to use new comb not so need to use new comb and I was like everybody else is saying to use this, I was like screw it, I'll just mix them and use it and when you mix oils and sulfur, what happens is it just melted. goddam plan. Just absolutely totaled my whole flower run. Just a second I did it and I was like, oh, man, after that, I learned that like, I should have already known that and I was an idiot for doing it. Yeah. But I never burned sulfur. I never had to deal with any of it or deal with PM like that before. So it was a new experience and I learned to stick with micronized sulfur because it's effective enough, especially in veg, not in flour, obviously. That's definitely one time of the many I've watched my plants go down like within hours. I've never used it before. It's a great, for PM, due to this game changer, going from having to use like harsh, harsh chemicals a few times that I had had it, like in San Diego, and everybody would just, you know, they'd blast to the hardcams. And that stuff, like you even being around it and smelling it, you know that that's not gonna do you any good. I'm not gonna say the brand name or any of that. I don't wanna get sued. But like, yeah, it's probably cancerous and crazy. So knowing that there are other options that are safe. And I mean, when people think of sulfur, if you've only burned sulfur, and this was a big reason I didn't want to use it in the first place, is because you think, oh my God, it's gonna smell like rotten eggs indoor. I don't like, this is an indoor, indoor where I live. Like, or maybe I don't want it to smell like that. But it smells like wet beach sand when you spray it. So it's a really pleasant smell to me. And the plants actually like it a lot, quite a bit. Does the PM usually come in off of the cutting that you bring into your room? It can come off cuttings, depending on where you live. PM can be like, you have a whole bunch of plants around you and it's just thriving in your area coming out of clothes. That's why I like to be naked in everyone's grow room that I go into. I just, I don't care who's it is, I just like to be naked and they better understand because I'm just trying not to pollute gardens is what I'm doing. No, it's yeah, it's like typically people when they bring in clones or trade clones, you're gonna run into PM. Cause it's in a lot of people's rooms. If you're in a room that's never had it, like you don't have your IPM running for it, you're gonna run into the same clones for sure. But a lot of times, yeah, it can come in on clothes, it can come in on your deck anywhere. It's a good vector. So sometimes nudity doesn't work. You try. It's a short vector. It's a very short path. What will you even talk? I kind of remember what I even asked. I don't know. We got to go back to the data. It's like, how, how... They're talking about favorite plants and stuff, right? Yeah. And I think I got distracted by talking about like, how messed up have you, like, how devastated have, you know, I can't even talk right now. Yeah. I mean, I've wasted a bunch of plants, I will say. I mean, like, like I wanted to learn about like, I wanted to try making rosin, you know, and like hash and stuff, which I have done successfully. But when I first tried it, I did not, you know, wasted tons of plants, you know, just not tons, but I wasted plants, you know, trying to do that stuff, you know, just, it's all a learning process. It's just like, you, you... Unfortunately with cannabis, like you read about stuff and there is a ton of good information, but it's also mixed in with like tons of bro science from the last 30 years that you have to sit through and decide if it's legit or not, you know? Yeah. I mean, that might be a good segue into the kind of, what I think as like the tail end of this combo, but I think quite a, also quite a big topic in and of itself, which is, you know, what do you all think a good grow, you know, means? Like what, what is good? You know, what are the, cause we like, like some of you have mentioned already, like there are some myths that float around, you know, it's about yield. It's about this with that, you know, it's about pumping them with nutrients. It's about pumping them with light, you know, those things. What are your thoughts on some of these myths, you know, any pet peeves? Like for me, for example, I got really hung up on the idea that plants should be given 1,000 PPFD, for example, for flowering, like it was a rule. And I insisted on it for a couple of runs and it was actually just fucking me up. And I had to take a step back and be like, why are you doing this? Like, why are you just sticking to this weird number that, you know, someone pulled out of a hat seemingly? Yeah. I mean, you can pick any myth in cannabis, you know, like to start with here, how people germinate seeds, you know, is wild. That, yeah, I always found it to be best to stay as clean as possible, that other people have different opinions on that, you know, that's probably one of my biggest pet peeves, I like people to be as cleanly as possible and not introduce one bacteria to whether they be popping seeds and, yeah. Yeah, that's probably my only major one. I'm not too picky. Anyone else, like, you know, has anyone kind of like absorbed something and then kind of regretted that, you know? Yeah, I mean, I did the same kind of stuff like with lighting as well, you know, I mean, there was like growing, you know, it just takes time to like, like all of it is just like, you get this light that's like, the first time you ever get an LED grow light, it's insane, you know what I mean? It's like, you have the sun in your basement. Like, it is so fucking bright, you know? And it's like, I know like the first time, when I first started growing, you know, I had this clone in there and like I didn't, I had my light turned down all the way, but I didn't realize it. I thought I had it turned up to a good level. And so for like a month, this clone just basically sat and like stays this, like didn't do anything really, you know? And I'm like, what is fucking going on right now? And then I just like look at my stuff and it's like, oh, you're an idiot, you know? But like, it's really easy to just overlook one little thing like that. And like, then you kind of beat yourself up about it, but like, that's the only way you're gonna learn those things for me, you know, like is to fuck up. I just don't ever even seen LEG, I mean, like, not in my own room, LEG, he likes overplants. I don't even know what that looks like, to be honest. Yeah. You know, I think one of the general myths that I've seen that's like been going on for the last couple of years is kind of the whole, and it's kind of a joke now too, but the whole Athena Jungle Boy Feed 3 3.5 EC deal, which I think what a lot of people don't understand is that if you're not running LED super hot rooms like between 85 to 90 degrees, pushing CO2 and super high humidity, so the plants, you know, not drinking a lot of water, then in those perfect conditions, they get away with those super heavy feedings, but for a home grower, when the room's a little bit cooler, like let's say you run 80, and your humidity maybe is closer to 60, if your plant starts drinking super fast that way, because having the humidity lower and the temperature higher makes the plant drink more, you'll burn your plant, you know? So I think that's like one of those myths that a lot of people, you know, and myself included, I didn't understand why I was doing it originally, and now that I understand how the plant uptakes nutrients and things like that, I realized, okay, I can push my plant another way and feed it much less, lower amount per feeding, and still get the results I want. Well, and I also think that just in general, like what, just to add on what Spindle was saying, is that like, being able to feed three and a half EC isn't the goal that you're working for. You know what I mean? Even if you do have those perfect conditions and you're able to feed at three EC, that doesn't mean that you have good weed. I mean, everyone now has smoked jungle boys and cookies packs and like knows what it is. I mean, it's right, like it's not like, people aren't like going crazy over that weed, right? I mean, like they're not. I don't have any rooms that run that way. I don't have any tents that can have those optimal conditions. So I don't know what their plants necessarily need, you know, like maybe in those conditions, that's what some of their strains actually require. I just don't have that situation. So it's just an interesting impulse to me though, underlying all of it. It's like, basically the idea is that maximalism is good. And it doesn't, there's no real justification for it. I don't think. Well, I don't think any of us really need to be getting four pounds of light, you know? That's not our goal. But I think they have very different goals than we do, you know? So they're able to do things we can't do. And, you know, I mean, it must work, it's to some level for some of them. I mean, they can't all be producing terrible weed, but. No, and maybe what we're getting to is that like with breeding, right? Like there's always gonna be a context for your growth and what are you growing for? Right. And I think that's what we're approaching, you know? You were kind of asking like what the goals are of what a good grow would be to each of us. Was that the question? Yeah, I think that's another way of asking it. And maybe we can have a go at that, you know? For each of you, what do you aim for? You know, what makes like a happy grow or a happy run? Yeah, local, you need to chill out with the Oreos and shit, we can hear it. But. Local, you go, you're up. What makes a happy plant or a run for you? That's, I mean, that's really hard to quantify, but as long as my plants aren't like, you know, looking extremely deficient in one thing and resin content looks, you know, what I would expect it to turn out to be, then in a way that is, you know, a marker for a successful run, but there's always things that can improve, you know, but that's kind of like the minimum I see as like a, you know, I'm going to smoke this, like I don't mind it at all. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll qualify that like success here is definitely in quote marks. And the whole idea is that we all have different senses of that. And I'm kind of just curious about unpacking it. Aaron, thoughts on what makes for a successful or happy plant or run? Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I'm kind of the same as local, you know, it's not like I'm a, I just want my plants to look generally healthy. And like, I kind of gauge that off of like, I take cuts pretty often off of my moms and stuff. And like, you know, I want them to root, you know, around the same speed. Stuff like that. You know, I'm always just like watching stuff to make sure that everything seems to be going the way that I expect it to go. And that's kind of what is like, that's kind of like, my goal right now is to just look through different stuff and find weed that I like, you know? I mean, these guys have access to stuff that like, I've never smoked like named weed, you know what I mean? Like from anyone. Like I just don't have access to that kind of stuff. So it's been like me just kind of finding like a place of like stuff that I like and then kind of trying to go from there. So for me, like a successful run is to pop a pack and, you know, make it through and like feel like I saw a good expression of that line and like be able to make a decision if I want to continue growing that direction or not, you know? I really liked that. And I think for me, one of my kind of idealist thoughts on this, on the subject was a good grower means that like you said, and the plant can express itself as fully as possible or like kind of fulfill its potential to like the maximum degree. And that, well, and I say idealist because, you know, you don't really know that. Like the only way you can actually know whether it's fulfilling its potential is if you've run in multiple times possibly under different conditions. But I still think it's like obviously a noble goal to be like to see each plant as having a certain degree of potential and in your growth, just trying to see whether you can meet that, you know, in some form. I think that's one of the ways I think about it now. Yeah, Michael, thoughts on this? I think at this point, I've had enough harvest under my belt in like it's the amount that we harvest, you know, it used to be like how many pounds per light and how much you could get would be the general winner of what was a good grower or not. I think at this point with, you know, we'd not being that valuable on a monetary level. Really, I see success as popping a pack of seeds that I'm actually interested in and then having, you know, being happy with the end result of 50% of those seeds. So if I pop a pack and I get seven females, if four of them come out and I'm excited to smoke them or I'm excited to share them and show them, that's a successful grow. Yeah, yeah, that's another good, that's another really good angle, I think. And that has, like you said, more to do with like the probabilities around, you know, running out of pack and what the individuals end up being like, yeah. Yep. You know, it's important where you get your seeds from. You know, like you, you know, you're spending money doing this, you don't need to waste time, you only have so many harvests in a life. Make sure you're getting something that is reputable and that you're happy with. And if you buy a pack of seeds from someone that, you know, is new to you and they're junk, you don't find anything you'd keep, don't keep throwing money at those same people, you know? Like go with the ones that are, you know, giving you something to live for, something to be happy about, something to be excited to show your friends. I was thinking about this, you know, in terms of like a difference in philosophy, between like different people in the community, there are obviously a large number of people who will say, I just want to be happy with what I bought. I don't care who I bought it from, but I bought it and I just want to feel okay with it. And you shouldn't tell me that like I should care, you know, where I got it from. And then there are the people who I think are more like us who are in a way like, perhaps like never really satisfied and always looking for better and better. And so you do have to look at every little parameter that you can control, i.e. what the genetics are, who you bought it from. I think it is interesting because it's a very divisive thing. It feels like in the growing community, the people who think it doesn't matter where you get stuff from, you can always find good stuff. And the people who are like, I want to keep looking harder. I think it's interesting. You know, it reminds me of something that we used to say a lot, you know, like people used to be real passionate about cars and I'm going to buy American. You know, you'd hear those people like I'd only buy a Chevy or a Ford, you know, I'd never buy a Japanese car, you know, because they want to reinvest in their country and their people. And then you have the other, you know, whatever part of the population that's like, I don't care, I just want, you know, a good car that's cheap and it'll run. You know, so I think each individual has to decide what's important to them. I'm not giving my money to someone that I think is a white supremacist or a child or anything like that. You know, those things are important, you know? I'm sure a lot of people don't give a shit. And oh, yeah, this guy ripped off Caleb and his whole line is basically just CSI repose. But they're a little bit cheaper, you know? Well, hey, I'll just get it from Caleb because the dude's legit, you know? I don't care. I'd rather spend a few extra bucks and get it from the guy that deserves the recognition than the dude that just copies everything Caleb does, you know? It's just a different mindset, dude. Like, it isn't like where I spend my money to me matters because I know like that's a vote for this person existing. That's a vote for his family. He's a good family man, I hear about his family. But I'm not like, I'm in this for making lifetime friends on top. Like, I don't just have customer relationships with anyone. Like, people know that, they know me. Like, we become friends over time because I give a shit about the people I'm interacting with. But, you know, it just depends on what you're into. Some people are just like, I don't care who it's from. If it's dank, it's dank. But a lot of those people also don't like, clearly have not even gotten to the point where they even understand what dank means to them. Like, they haven't even made it that far in their journey. It's still that mindset in my opinion. That's where I see it. Yeah. I love seeing the people that I care about succeed. That shit excites me. You'll also find the people that want to take advantage of their friends that succeed more than anything else. There's just, there's different types of people in this world, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think that's like, oh, sorry. Oh, you're going, you're going. No, I was just gonna say coming into the weed scene as like a newer guy, you know, and just like meeting people on Discord and stuff, like I didn't have like a clear understanding of like what, like how, you know, like how small the scene is. So like, it's like these dudes know each other and stuff, you know, and like, you're definitely voted. Like, whether you like it or not, you're like making a decision with your money when you spend on it in such a small scene. Like that kind of money like, like really goes on, you know, that really goes a long way. Like if like Matt loses one or two people, like it's not like seed sellers are like, you know, have millions of customers. You know what I mean? Like it's very small. And when you, yeah. I mean, you should like the buy, obviously like I want to smoke good weed, but if the choice is smoke good weed and support shady people, I just will not smoke weed. Yeah, you know, this also goes two ways with some of us too. Like there's a lot of us as seed makers and this really screws people up. Like when they email me and they're like, yeah, I'm going to drop three grand and they proceed to like, you know, like down talk me and be rude. I'll just be like, dude, I don't need your money. You sound like an asshole. Like I'm not even into it. Like it's not, it's, it doesn't matter if it, it would keep the business running longer in many cases. It just doesn't matter to me because bad people don't need to touch plants. It's just what it is, the fact of the matter. I think it passes down. I think bad juju flies with this shit and you see it time to time again where people support bad people making seeds and time and time again, bad things happen to these people throughout their lives. Like this stuff travels and carries on. I'm not a very spiritual person, but some things in life are just evident. Yeah. Plants are living. Plants are living beings, you know? I do think about that. And I, like I think about like, when I have gotten plants from, I've like, you know, gotten packs from people and started growing them out and like been mid, I mean, I've been mid flower and found stuff out about the people that made them. And I just, I, there's nothing in me that wants to smoke those plants anymore. I've just, I've thrown them, I've thrown whole plants out just truthfully. I just am very much like, I got it. Like a big part of this is really cool is the community. And like now that I'm a part of it, I don't, yeah. I just can't support like shitty people. Yeah. Not only that, but if people don't, you know, if not enough of us vote with their dollar and in the end of this, we're left with, you know, compound and seed junkie. We're all going to blame the price. Yeah. That's going to be a shitty world they'll be living in. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that even if, even if one were ethically or morally indifferent to that situation, there are enough good options on the market that you can consider things like ethics and community when you make these decisions because it's not like we don't have enough sources at the moment. I mean, you can buy a pack from pack or high and lonesome or mat or any of these people that are in the server that are legit people doing it the right way and not, you know, not fucking people over and you can find a, I mean, I would say a keeper in every pack almost. I mean, at this point with a lot of that stuff. I mean, I've grown through a lot of there's like, not a lot, but like at this point, I've grown through enough of it that like, I've found plants that are really good, you know? And it's not like these guys are trying to lie to you or anything, you know? You know, some, in some of those cases, there are people that I had to force to sell their seeds like high and lonesome and even pack. Like these are guys that like existed and were making stuff that I thought was cool. And I was like, guys, like any other people need to see this. It's really, really good, you know? And high and lonesome took years and years. He did not want anything. He was around before me. And so he knew like what goes along with selling seeds. He knew what, he knew all the headaches that come with it. So none of that was interesting to him. He just likes plants, you know? So, yeah, some of these guys, you have to drag in kicking and screaming, but sometimes it's worth it. And I think he was definitely one that was worth it. So it's back. I've popped 72 seeds from CSI and I've had two plants I was disappointed in. That's awesome. That's insane. You know, where I was like, wow, this is kind of boofy, you know? And it's also one of the most difficult lines to breed with. So I'm not surprised, you know? Everything else was unbelievable. Exactly what it should be. Yeah, and the special thing about that too is that like he's pretty open about it and says like you could expect X amount of boof from this line, blah, blah, blah. And being able to tell people with transparency what to expect again is a loss are in seeds. And a lot of people don't get that. Like just for case in point, any of these hype strains with any of these like food names are any of those like what they're implying? In that case, what are you doing? What are we even naming this shit for? Why not just call it X, Y, Z, one, two, three? I don't know. Right? That's so annoying. That's what, you know, like when you put blueberry on something, it's blueberry. When dynasty says something is gonna be strawberry or pineapple, it's pineapple. Exactly. You know, if it's cherry vanilla, it's cherry vanilla. It's cherry vanilla, right? Yeah. Like that's, that shit's important. Yeah. Like I, blue sushi, I don't, like what the fuck's that even supposed to be? I don't get it, you know? I've never had a marijuana that tastes like a hamburger either. No, no, thank God. Thank God. Yeah, that's not the feeling one. No. Yeah, I mean, I think that was a good, good exchange about like how we make our, you know, buying decisions in this space. I think it's always gonna be a really interesting topic. Isn't it weird that it's like all passion or no passion with it? On those answers? You know what divides people? It doesn't seem like there's a lot of middle ground on that. People either tend to be very passionate or very blasé. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, that's what it seems like to me as well. Yeah, I remember Sean pointed that out. It's like a team sports almost. Yeah, definitely. You know? It's hard to not have communities without that to not. That's true. Because communities are all built on like passionate ideals, at least the best communities that stay together and stay on firm or built on passionate ideals and passionate ideals definitely, they become strong ideals. And that definitely leads that team sports type thing. I've been trying to think of how to, to keep our group from experiencing that as best we can, because it's hard because I'm, everybody sees me and I have my own very, very opinionated way of dealing with things. But at the same time, like I'm trying to tender that with the idea of it, my own personal opinions affecting the way other people think. Maybe that isn't so smart and trying to figure out how to maneuver that. It's interesting. But yeah, it's always evolving. Well, and I too, I think too, like I've always appreciated like when I just coming here and having an honest conversation about like what expectations are from what you're growing and stuff like that. I mean, you just don't, I mean, like when I started growing that's what I wanted was that community to be able to like talk to the dudes that are like growing these plants and working with them and like get like an idea of like what are they looking for out of this? And like what, you know what I mean? Just stuff like that, like it's just like it's so much work. Like when you pop a seed, like you don't realize that you're gonna be with that plant for like, you know you might be with that plant for a year or more. You know what I mean? Like it's a big commitment and like I wanna like know about like what I'm doing and like what, I don't know there's just so much to it. And there's people that do take it seriously enough that can tell you that. I just don't understand why you would support people that don't take it seriously. I wanted to kind of like tie this together with some of what I was saying about what makes for a good grow. And I like, sorry, tie this conversation about buying seeds together with that because for me, one of the cool things that you get out of buying stuff that is reliable and has descriptions that you can actually like somewhat trust. Is that you get to see, you're gonna get to see what people actually say you're gonna get to see. So last night, for example, I was actually asking Matt, hey, I'm growing this like T1000 times underdog oracle. I'm seeing like some OG leaning things. I think, do you think that this is like an oracle leaning thing? And getting to see that for me is also part of what makes a good grow. Yeah, that's awesome. You have questions about lineage, you have questions about expressions and you get those questions answered in the grow. That's a good grow to me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so we're coming up to where we were like almost at the two hour mark, 15 minutes away or so. Does anyone else have any other kind of like broad reflections on grow philosophy, grow tech? Kind of like what I was saying at the very beginning. This episode is a bit broader. It's meant to be about, yeah, broad tech and broad like philosophy. I think for subsequent episodes, we can probably pick like topics like mid to late flowering or IPM or stuff like that. But for this one, does anyone else have like any other reflections or like talking points? I have one, and usually I go last, but this one I want to hear what these guys have to say. One of the main things within growing, and it was a long journey, like trying to chase OG Kush cuts over, that was a real popular thing when I was coming up with OG Kush, which Kush cut do you have? Is it one of the original legit ones? And I remember coming across this weed in a collective in San Diego called Point Loma Collective, that's the Point Loma Patients Collective. And it was called Tokyo OG, right? And it was the dankest, dankest OG Kush cut. I thought I could ever, I was chasing this thing. And I remember they told me it was a lady would come in and drop it off. And the lady was the grower and the breeder of this cut. And so I remember being in there and hanging out and waiting for her to come do her drop and trying to catch her, like just to talk to her. Just like, hey dude, you know, let's talk. And I missed her. The one time she came in when I was there and I was so bummed, later on, we became friends in life. And that's when I realized it wasn't that it was just a special, special OG Kush. It was special. It was a great OG Kush cut. It was how well she familiarized herself with that single cut and truly, truly what I felt mastered it to bring out its best peak expressions. And it was so good. She outgrew every fucking OG grower in San Diego and everybody think having her cut. But it was always obvious when it was her grow and she never passed her cut out. It was always obvious when it was her grow because it was so expertly done. And you always knew what it was made. So yeah, shout out to her. And it was also a big learning lesson for me. So what's the, sorry, man. What's the prompt for people? Like, what are you asking us to think about here? Well, like the fact that, you know, there's a lot of clone chasing. We do all this clone chasing. People are trying to find this clone. A lot of times it's not about that. It's how well you can grow a single clone. And that was kind of what I learned and experienced through that whole, whole section, you know. And I don't know if clone chasing is as popular as it is now or was then as it is now with this generation. But that was a huge learning experience for me. And I don't know if anybody else has had similar experiences. You know, I think that's really a lost art at this point. Because if you think about it, Matt, you know, 20 plus years ago, you'd be lucky to be able to get one elite. Like let's say you've gotten an elite clone. Yeah. That's probably all you're gonna be growing for the next 10 to 15 years. Yeah, that's true. You know what I mean? You're gonna learn that plant inside and out. You know, like if you got an OG, you're gonna learn how to grow OG. Exactly. You know? Whereas now there's so much available to all of us. Like there's very few plants that I want to grow more than two years. You know, if I do, it's for nostalgia more than anything else because I'm worried no one else will keep it and it'll be gone forever. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big point. And there was a time when I first started going to dispensaries here in the Valley and you'd go in and there'd be, you know, 20 different jars of OG, right? Oh yeah. Like every name you could think of. And to me, you know, I didn't realize at that point that Ken had been selling S1s. So I would look through all those jars and I'd be like, they're all OG. Yeah. You can just tell some growers know what they're doing a little better than others, you know, like this guy. Whereas now when I think back now I'm thinking, huh, I wonder if maybe there were different that many different OG cuts or if there were just a few handful of cuts maybe five or six and then these people grew really well or really poorly. Exactly, hard to know. Like I still, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Like when I hear SFV, the examples I've seen they look identical to the original OG that I saw when I moved here. Yeah. You know, and there was no SFV OG back then. No. So, you know, I'm still confused about that too, but I think your point's very well taken. Like when someone knows how to grow something it's going and they make that their love or their passion, it's going to be unbelievable. I bet if I was able to smoke high and lonesome's Appalachia, it'd probably, you know be the farthest thing from skunk number one. Oh yeah, excellent. You know, so yeah, I definitely see where you are with that. I think it reminds me Matt. We should, one of the other, one of the kind of topics that we could cover in a future episode is like preservation, propagation, you know, like all that stuff. I remember like Chimera also had some stuff to say about that. Maybe it would be funny if we could maybe include him in one of these. Absolutely. But yeah. Anyone else? Local, any last thoughts? Local thoughts, please. No, I didn't. Sorry, I had to press the unmute button. You got electric boogaloo. Yeah, right. So I don't know. I think running a clone, like if you're set on a cut I think every time you rerun it you're going to learn something about how it does express. And I think like obviously in that you're going to learn what you can tweak to make the ride a little smoother the next time. And I do think that that is like, you know, something really important, especially when you're kind of learning a cut, you know, to learn what you can do to maximize its potential. And it's like OGs and stuff like, God damn, I wouldn't even know where to start. Like any OG hybrid I've had has just looked like ass under my conditions. But that's because I grow in pure cocoa and that's like not the way to grow OG Kush at all. No, not with the dirt system. Yeah, exactly. So it's just like, I did want to highlight here. You know, you talk about rerunning a plant and getting to learn it better, which is obviously true. But in rerunning a plant you actually learn more about your setup as well. That too, yeah. It's like Bodhi used to say, don't just grow your plant, grow with your plants. So it's not just you learning the plant. It's also your plant learning your environment with Daphne as well. Yeah. Yeah, very good point, local. Aaron, any last? Yeah, and that just to what Matt was saying with the learning its environment and that kind of stuff like, I mean, that's the biggest point that I would make would be, honestly, I mean, don't worry about getting plants. You know what I mean? Don't be so stressed about getting plants for people because I think that like these days, you have work that you can find stuff that is on that level. Absolutely. Out of a seed pack. And I think that you're more than likely to find something that grows better in your environment that way as well. You know, like you get to do this election from the very beginning. And I just would say like, I just for me clones don't seem like something that I'm super, it's not something that I want really. Just to make it clear, I guess we're talking about like clones in two different ways. There's like clones with uppercase C, i.e. elite clones that people look like going high. Right, and that's what I'm saying. Keeping clones of your own stuff that you're just rerunning. Right, and I see, yeah, and I definitely like, I think that it's very valuable to like run your stuff multiple times and learn it because like, all these guys will tell you that like, that they, like the clones settle in and like do different things and stuff, you know what I mean? So like it is worth spending that time. I'm just saying maybe just spend time on something that you find cool, you know? Exactly, exactly. What someone else finds quote unquote elite, like when you really find out who the guys were choosing these old elite clones, the way they were running their plans and you see their pictures on the forums, you will appreciate the word elite a lot differently, I think and if people realize, man, I'm a way better grown that dude. I'm going way better shit than them. I'm in a way better situation. Maybe what I'm choosing is more elite to me and that's a legit thing to say. I mean, that can happen a lot. It's everything is subjective when it comes to what is quote unquote elite in cannabis and that's a big learning lesson. I wanna say as well that, oh, sorry, Mike, I'll just quickly say like there are lots of hierarchies in this community and people wanting to preserve those hierarchies, whether they're hierarchies of clones, hierarchies of breeders, people are fighting to preserve these weird ladders and often they are just mythical, like they just made up, smoke and mirrors. Sorry, Michael, what were you gonna say? You know, I think there's benefits to both because you should definitely look through seeds and find what you like. But at the same time, if people talk about something that you missed out on for long enough, you know, it'd be nice to try them. You know, like when I hear about Day Wrecker and stuff like that, I wasn't around for that. That never made it into, I'd never heard of it before. So that's something I'd wanna try. You know, I'm not saying it'd be like the leak cut that I'm gonna grow the rest of my life. I don't think there is such a thing. But getting to experience those things, I think it means a lot to, you know, people that missed it. You know? I've heard about ChemD and Chem91 for 20 some years now. I wanna see him like the real thing, to know the real thing is in front of me. You know, not just something made up, you know? And that's why I try to tell these kids so often, not kids, people that are coming into the scene now, but like the way that you get those clones, it's so hard to buy them and get legitimate copies by buying them. It really is. Oh, I don't even think they're for sale. If they're not, and that's the problem. Like if they do, it's usually through a back door and like they're not gonna get good provenance on it. You're not gonna be able to ask someone, hey, did you get it legit from this dude? You know, like that's never gonna happen. So you're never gonna be able to really reassure yourself taking the buying route. So just be a good person and make friends in the community, learn shit. And that's how we all fell into it. And like everybody in our group knows like, fuck, I put all my clones out there and said, fuck it, take what you want, crew. Don't give a shit. Like that's how it works. But it takes a lot of trust in building time, sharing time with people. It's not about buying shit. And those things are there. Those things are there to get and to be had and to try at just knowing the right people and just being a decent human. Really. You know, one thing about, sorry. Go ahead, Michael. Sorry. It's a latency thing. Blame me being by the South Pole. Yeah. I'll just say that I know I've totally blanked. That's good. Michael, you go. I just, I wanted to say too, like I had bought two packs of chili verde. And I didn't want to pop them. So I went and I got from purple city genetics. I got a clone of the chili verde, right? And I grew it out and I sent, is it HPK? Yes. I sent them pictures, you know, and I was like, this is really nice stuff. And he was like, oh, you know, that's not actually my cut of chili verde. That's just one they picked out. And I was kind of disappointed. I was like, huh, okay. Then I popped a pack of chili verde. I found something so much better than that elite that they were selling all over California in that first pack where I was like, oh my God, this is why he calls it what he calls it. Did you find it chili verde, if you know? Oh, it was beautiful. His original cut, dude, when he brought it down here. So good. It smelled like, like carne asada, the chili verde. It smelled exactly like it and I was mind blown. And every chili verde that I smelled since is someone else's selection and is nowhere near as good as his was. The purple city one was really sweet. Yeah, yeah. Really sweet. Not at all. The one I found in the seed pack was just like so unique. I was like, holy shit. Yeah, they're unique shit, no. Okay, I remember. So the point I was trying to make, I think, with respect to what Matt was saying about how you become connected and actually create relationships with people, I think there's a confusion in the industry or community where people don't know if they're meant to be acting like customers or like community members. And it's not even their fault because lots of discords or communities, they are treated like customers and they become used to that. And so they have entitlements as a customer would feel like they might have. Whereas once they come into a real, quote unquote, real community like ours, it's totally different. You can't act like that. You can't just assume that these are all transactional exchanges and that you can just expect certain things, no. Yeah, and that's why I kind of say the thing about the clones and it's just because like coming from where I'm at, like being an unconnected new grower, the best way that I could get access to good weed was to find good seeds, you know? I mean, buying, I'm so thankful that I didn't get into buying stuff and like, cause you just hear nightmares of people ruining their entire grows from getting some weird pest or something, you know what I mean? And that can happen, you know what I mean? Lots. Until you get a pest and you've torn down your room three times and you keep getting it back. Yeah, right? The gift it keeps on giving, bro. Yeah. That's a demon right there. Yeah. That's the real, that's the Santa Cruz supermite. Yeah. I've seen that thing a few times, bro. It's like a bed bug. You can live in the sheets for years. Yeah, right. Yeah, me and CSI joke about the spider mites that like would drink fluoromite and like laugh at you as they chug it. Yeah, we've seen it all, dude. Like to the point of where like it was completely obsolete to even use any of those harsh pens anymore because they were just so like, they didn't work anymore. You had to find legit means of using like real predators and stuff to kill these things. Yeah. Yeah, maybe we need to have an IPM episode as well. Yeah, some pleasure. But yeah, we're coming up to the two hour mark. I think we've covered a lot of ground today. I hope to see these guys back again and we might even have different people coming in maybe as well for future indoor growing episodes. We might end up having a proper hydro episode as well. So hopefully we'll see some of you back. Is there anything else from anyone or Matt? Happy birthday to you, thousand. Thank you. Happy birthday to you, thousand. Happy birthday to you. Yeah, but people are watching this. It'll be a little later. So don't wish him, I mean, you can wish him a happy birthday when this airs but yes, this is twice. A new drop coming pretty soon from Goat Farm and Mrs. Jill already up on the site, right? Yeah, and I'm about to put her brain very calm. Michael's on it. Michael can be a host. I know, right? You can help me. So I don't have to say cringy stuff. I'll take it. I work. Any last shout outs from anyone? Local shout out to Milo. And Zah. Abulita, John class, anything? Hey, John class. Yeah, I don't know. Anybody else got any shout outs you want to do, Erd? No, I'm good. Thanks for just having me on here, guys. This is cool to talk. Michael. Yeah, thanks guys. This is fun. What you got, Michael? Any shout outs? Nope. All right, then I'll shout out. Glassbyc2.com. Go check it out. My favorite glass on earth. The only thing I'll use. I'll second that. Yeah, right? It's no bullshit. Yeah, no bullshit. We all use it now. And it's not because it's sponsored. It's because it's legit. Watch the episode. Watch the glass episode. It's really good. It's a really, really good one. People are sleeping. Yes. And yeah, Thousand, you got anything birthday boy? No, just happy to be here. Happy to be invited. Just happy to be along for the ride, right? OK, well, with that, go check out riotseeds.com for all your seeds and spray needs. Like we said, adding Miss Jill's brineberry cough tonight. Goat Farm can have a new Blue Dream drop. We're doing stuff on our Discord with that and the Patreon 50K, so check that out too. And yeah, go to the Discord, hang out. I think with that, we'll call it a wrap, guys. Thanks so much, everyone, and happy birthday, Thousand. Thank you. Want to sit at the table with a syndicate? Check out our Patreon and our link tree or description below. Our merch site is officially live. We have all sorts of shirts, hoodies, and goodies to sort you out, and shipping is super fast. And most importantly, the quality is top notch. 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