 We have three board members, a lot of people. What's the role? Paul, the meeting's to order. First up is public comment. And I'll say we're having a vicious dog hearing first. So the first thing is public comment on anything to do with a vicious dog, not the select board agenda that somebody wants us to look at or think about using. Just state your name for the record. My name is Holly Angle, and I understand the radical situation just like today. So it's not about the hearing tonight. This is about any other vicious dog. I'm just saying, in general, today you're using the equity and inclusion and standards and best practices. And under all those umbrellas that we consider, all the parties, even as grave as things, are is there a time to figure out a plan or a restitution that could be mediated upon, at least for a Hail Mary in anybody's situation, no matter what I always would ask. But that'd be helpful for any drastic, no matter what drastic decisions get made in life. So yeah. Any other public comment on a vicious dog? Not about the case we're going to hear tonight, right? OK. I guess my question is, I'm Melissa Scalera on the town health officer. Will you call me? Sure. I think when we start the hearing, we'll review sort of the order of events real quickly, too, so. OK. All right. Approval of the agenda? I move to approve the agenda. All second. Close in favor. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. So a public hearing on a vicious or aggressive dog, public nuisance complaint. I just want to state for the record that this dog is right across the road from me. And so I have no problem staying so that we have the quorum. But a little bit of a conflict here. Not really. I don't really know the dog, but I've seen it. Yeah, there's a big conflict of interest because your dog has been on my property several times. He comes over to visit everybody. I've had to call you before retreat, Max. And I've had to call my own multiple times. And she told me to contact you and deal with it between us. So there's a huge conflict of interest. Where does that leave us in terms of a quorum for conducting the hearing? You need all three. Right. That's about a five. So what it is is the potential conflict has been made known. The practice that follows from there would be for you to discuss whether or not it's a conflict that's going to be material and impact or proceeding. And then you get to make that decision whether or not. As an entity, whether or not any actions warranted. So given that it is not a trained dog, that is the subject of the hearing tonight that comes to bear on the question of conflict, right? Yeah. It's not her dog. Mine would lap you to death. That's about how we get out of it. So not like chickens multiple times. And they would come after it. I guess the conflict is more or less town code, loose dogs multiple times. As mine is being addressed now, so has one of the town select where it's at. There are other incidents in the past that directly have impact on this hearing as neighbor to neighbor that we won't discuss today. I just want to move forward with my dog, getting my dog the necessary treatments, getting fine safe care of vaccinations, security for my dog, smooth phone. Hi, Ellen. I'd just like to state for the record, Mr. Squirrel has stated that he's called me about a training dog. I have not received a complaint about a training dog. I was at his house, and I am seeing all the bird dogs. But nobody has filed a complaint with animal control. Well, I have. So there's a discrepancy between the two of them. Can you show me the phone records on your phone when you call me? Sure. Can you show me the phone records on your phone? Yes. Are they in the documents that are given to me? Because that's part of the character. Well, the record, I only have one dog, not multiple. You have a large German shepherd. No, I don't. And then you have one named Max. And I'd like to call you with one named Max. I don't have a large German shepherd. There was a large German shepherd on your phone. You just lost feet. It was, it wasn't mine. So just in terms of how to move off of Senator here, the choice of our people, if you're comfortable with the knowledge of it, you can proceed with the hearing, walk through all of the stuff. And then if the dog owner thinks that it's material, that could be the grounds for an appeal of whatever decision you render, assuming you reach one. So that's path one. If you feel strongly enough about the conflicts, we would have to reopen to the hearing that we opened in June and recessed out of concerns for due process to make sure everybody could participate. So that's why we're here again in August. We've essentially recessed it again until there were a quorum of the board from that. You can't proceed with two. So it's basically a comfort level with where you're at. And then that can, if there's some sort of disagreement of that decision, that could become the basis of which somebody challenges it. If not, you're basically just opening and closing. Because there's no other work around for the two, three thing. As I've stated in previous, and this is tangential to my serving on the select board. But as I stated in previous, vicious dog animal hearings, I have retired now, but I've had professional experience as a domain society executive director. And so I know some of the issues here. I know all the issues here very well from my professional experience. And I would prefer that we stay focused on the issue at hand and not introduce any tangential issues into it, unless we render a decision and underrepeal those tangential issues are ruled, just as you said, to have been substantive in terms of the running background. Because we have a situation at hand here that needs to be dealt with. And whatever tangential issues there are, we can deal with later. That's how I feel. I agree with you. Both of you would be saying, and just to be clear, a vote by a party towards my dog and me is affected by a person involved in the situation, just the bottom line of that. Yeah. And I just received notification of this hearing on Monday because a certified mail was not being delivered while I was at home. So I just found out about this hearing Monday. I requested body cam footage from the officer on duty because there's discrepancies in all of the writings. And I think maybe moving it to next month or whenever sooner or later, it would give me a chance to get everything that needed to be done for the vaccinations, medical treatments, larger events. The dog is very old. I have to honor this fairly once in a while. So Dean, are you implying that my dog was in any how, way, shape, or form involved in the actual attacks on people that's the hearing for tonight? Not talking about any attacks. I'm talking about a conflict of interest. No, I'm asking you a question, though. Are you saying that my dog, which I had Max, had any involvement in the attacks that are part of tonight's discussion? Who knows? I can't tell you. I'm talking about my dog and what's going on. So that's where the conflict would be. If Max was out there budding along with yours and attacked the people on bike or whatever, that's where the conflict would be. That's what I'm trying to get to. Was your dog attacked by the dog that is alleged in tonight's incident? Was my dog attacked? Yeah. Or were you attacked? His dog attacked, too. Their dog has been attacking my chickens. But I'm trying to strike here. Are you the owner of the dog who is under the? There's still a few. Sorry, I'm talking simply. We're having audio issues, it seems. The note's just to screen it as to fix it. It helps that we know that there's an issue. We are trying to work on it. Go ahead, Tom. You can talk. You just ignore us. I'm just trying to understand what your role in tonight's hearing is. Are you the owner of the dog who is alleged to have been vicious? Yes. OK. I think the conversation is whether you guys feel like there's a conflict of interest. If you feel there's a conflict of interest, we need to change the date. If you don't feel like there's a conflict of interest, we need to get started with the hearing. I'm not sure I'm saying I'm not accountable. I am accountable. Right. I just was trying to get clarity as to whether you were the alleged victim or the, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I never say answer. The dog has been impounded, correct? The dog has been impounded, correct? That's what I've been told. I've tried to get the allows to go get the vaccinations done. But I've been told by some members of the town or the rest of the town office and by law that I'm not allowed to get the vaccinations or registration done until after this hearing. So that would then be delayed as well. Yeah, I just want to get. I want to do what you guys need me to do to get my dog up to date with a few months behind the vaccination for every of these. I've had it every year since. He's a rescued dog of eight years with me from 13 years old. He doesn't have much time left. I don't see it as a conflict of interest because Trini's dog was not involved. It's not about our dogs. When Trini wasn't personally involved, she was not attacked. And so, I mean, the option is if we do decide to postpone it, then your dog is definitely not coming back home tonight. You know, so. Let's just continue. It's going to delay it a month. Right. If we postpone it. I want my dog. I'm not the chair of it. I shouldn't be calling on Trini. I don't see it as a conflict. I don't see it as not quite an interest. Unless Max Trini's dog was directly involved in an incident in which your dog allegedly attacked someone, if Max did it in tandem with him or her, I'm not sure what gender she is or who she is. But I don't see how there's a conflict of interest, just because Trini happens to be your neighbor and has a dog. Yep, yeah. I hear you 100%. If you were. I was told to bring this up, so. Right. But if your objective is to, and Trini, I'm sorry to just. Go ahead. You're the chair, so you should just shut me down if you wish. But if your objective is to get your dog back as soon as possible and re-judge in your favor tonight, then you're going to be better served by that than waiting a month over some questionable conflict of interest. Yes. It was more like just personal tension. It seems like it's more personal tension than actual conflict. Yes. So I wouldn't. I would say we should proceed if you're all in agreement. So maybe just before we start, we've been having some issues that have been reported with the connections there. We've checked the internet speeds. They seem to be fine on that end. We are running off of the Wi-Fi. We have issues connecting this machine through the wire to the ethernet. There doesn't seem to be a way to resolve it without kicking anyone off and trying to restart everything that way. It could also be an issue with the provider that's outside of our influence. So we're aware of it. Orcas here is being recorded on the Zoom in the room. So we are hitting those markers. And we hope that some of these issues have stabilized or resolved themselves. So we are trying within the limits of what we're able to do in the moment. So we recognize that we're trying to work through it. So I apologize if there's an issue. So hopefully it doesn't persist. Just so everybody in the room and everybody online knows. Can people online hear what's going on? We don't know. I think there's been some intermittency at least, yeah. So you're here in person and you're online? Well, I was online, but you couldn't hear. You could hear one in every maybe five, 10 words. So you stayed online and drove up? Well, I didn't want to miss the excitement. So I just, little PSA. Oh, no. Yeah. Art, this is a complicated one. Are there people online to your knowledge that may have wished to speak at this hearing? I wouldn't be able to tell other than the complainant and the dog owner of the only two names that I would recognize. Do we have a chat there? Yeah. If we could put in a chat, if somebody would like, maybe they can try a phone number or something? Yeah. Yeah, you could try the phone in number and see if that's any better. Though I didn't see a report that that didn't seem to help for someone, at least. But if maybe we open the chat, we'll keep an eye on it. People can submit some questions there. We'll keep for when we get to that spot of the hearing. And that might be a workaround unless or until they can figure something out. I don't see them. And this is the headroom. If you can just pull the chat up so it stays. Yeah. We'll keep an eye on it. So sorry, I was dealing with that. We've decided to proceed with the hearing. Yes. OK. So the basic rules we've done, these are the exact same ones you've done for at least two other hearings in the last year or so to year and a half. What you have in front of you are those guidelines for procedure. I'll run through them just very quickly so you have them again and then everyone can hear them. I've already called the hearing to order. We'll go through a summary of what the purpose of the hearing is. I will provide that in very broad strokes for you. Just sort of frame what the issue is. And then at that point, you will drive from there. The general order we've had for these things is first, you'd hear from the animal control officer. And you'd have the town health officer. Then we usually hear from the complainant. And then we let the dog owner have it. And at that point, you open it up for others who have commentary to participate. Usually in between each of those people who speaks, there's a time for the board to ask questions to whoever they're talking to. We don't open that piece up to the full courtroom say, that's you as the adjudicating body at this piece. And then at the end, there's a little more of a public piece to it. At the end of that, what you have the option to do, you have two options. You can deliberate in open session, which is where we are right now. Or you can adjourn briefly to a deliberative session. I think given everybody in the room, everybody online, what we would do. OK, that's good. What we will do is maybe just because there's four of us essentially run upstairs into my office. And then whatever you do for a decision, you would then come back after your out of deliberative session and announce here. And then that goes in writing within a set as soon as possible. Statue doesn't prescribe that piece of the timeline. It prescribes some other pieces of that. But we generally try to do that inside of the first, say, 10 days from the hearing or less if possible. So that's the basic outline of the process. That's the one we've used for both the weaver and the king hearings that we've had within the last 14 months or so. So this one goes back to an alleged incident in May. You have the information in your packets. This is the same information from June, where a cyclist, I believe, was riding by the property at which the dog resides. The dog is alleged to have gone after the cyclist, bitten, may have knocked her off her bike, caused some injuries that required medical attention, complaint was filed. That's the thing that kicks off your process for both the ordinance and statute. And it was investigated by the state trooper response. You have that report in your packet. And then both the health officer and the animal controller have been involved at different points. There have been other things that have happened since then, such as the impoundment, which you could ask Milo about. Goes to a running out large situation after when you had opened the June hearing and then closed it, you'd followed it up with a motion to essentially say that the dog had to be kept on the property of the owner at all times. So when it was found off the property on a neighboring porch, that was one of the factors that led to that impoundment. Others can cover that in more detail and answer any questions about it. So that is the broad summary of what is in front of you tonight. I'm going to start with having Milo present what you know about the case. So I happen to hear about the insides that happened to be at the Randolph KD when the call came in. And I talked to Trooper Flores, and he sent me his report and whatnot. I could not get a hold of Mr. Srill. I contacted our health officer, Melissa Scolera. The two of us did go out to the house to contact Mr. Srill who was not there when the dog was inside at the time, and also spoke with Pam Fitzgerald, the victim. During all of this, I learned that the dog had bitten two other cyclists previously that I did not know about. But I found that the dog had gotten loose and done that. Mrs. Srill can speak to her injuries, but my understanding and from the Trooper's report was that the dog was tied out to an RV in the front yard and that it got loose when after her knocked her off her bike and had bit her. And then somebody, I believe, the owner's mother came by and got the dog and put it inside. One of the concerns I had when I saw the report from the Trooper was that they had some 90 grids out. I did not see water anywhere. The only shelter the dog had was to show me underneath the RV for shade. So I called her game warden, Ella Klein. I concerned about the country cruelty case. As we progressed, I got a call on Friday from a residence on Route 14 that there was a dog curled up on their front porch and it wouldn't leave. They had kids and they were afraid to go outside. So I went down and picked up the dog. It had an old tag from 2019, which was registered under Mr. Srill's ex-wife's name. So I knew whose dog it was. I knew that it needed to be held. The concern with the dog was that we noticed it was limping and it has a very large, at least volleyball, basketball-sized tumor on their chest. Yeah, it's hard to tell, but it means it's movement. The growth does. The dog, when we brought it in and they looked up its records, they kind of know that the dog will bite without provocation. We had put the dog in the kennel without issue. And then one warden Klein came over with me later that evening, walked the dog out so she could take pictures of the growth because it didn't appear to be being treated. And then he would not go back in the kennel. Even the slightest brush against his fur near that tumor would cause him to snap when we couldn't gently move him. And when the clinic folks got a muzzle, he got very snappy and lighty, didn't want that on. So we got a rabies pole. And then when we tried, he kept ducking away from trying to get that on him as we were trying to hold him and threaten him from biting anyone. Then he just started panting, got tired, turned around, and walked back in the kennel. See him distressed. We asked. We're in Klein to ask for a report, and she can speak more to those situations. Yeah, so I had an opportunity to talk to Mr. Squirrel about kind of the statutes that I'm concerned about. We talked through kind of the tethered statute from the initial incident with the bicyclist. And then I talked him through his requirement in our statutes to provide medical care for the dog. I had an opportunity to talk to the vet this afternoon before coming here. And he advised that it's definitely a tumor. He won't be able to tell if it's benign or cancerous until he can basically sedate the dog to do a biopsy. But that either way, he can see that it is causing about pain. So it's favoring that side, it's causing it to limp. And any kind of contact that the dog makes with that side in the kennel causes it to be uncomfortable. He thinks that this should have been addressed previously, that it's been obviously an issue that is uncomfortable for the dog. But that it should definitely be addressed when we look forward, and that would require a surgery. He estimated the cost of that surgery to be anywhere between $2,000 to $3,000 depending on if it is cancerous or not, which he wasn't able to say because it used to be procedures moving forward to determine that. If it's not cancerous, it can just be removed and then the dog can recover. If it is, that's obviously a different story that is whether you treat that cancer or you choose to put the dog down at that place. That would be the owner's discretion. But that's the information I received. So in terms of cruelty, the dog couldn't be sent home without that being my interest. Right, yeah, yeah. There are some medical issues that need to be addressed in order to be in compliance with the state statute to provide medical care to your dog, which I talked to Mr. Sprill about that a little bit previous to talking to the vet, was that we had this concern of the growth that was on the dog. And I got a little more information about that today before coming on in. Obviously, I'm concerned about how many times the dog has bitten and whether it goes after wheels or what, but it certainly hasn't been contained to the point that it can't get out of such containment to go after bicyclists riding by. And then the fact that after all of this, I find the dog on somebody else's property for rough on the porch, unwilling to live. May I ask a question? Yeah. How sizable is this growth again and is there any way of determining how long it has been there? So I looked at the photos from the incident that I think we're here for and you can see the growth is about the same size of those photos. I would have to speak with the vet. I'm not, certainly not a medical expert, but I could ask that information and get it to you at a later date. I own dogs. It's a pretty big mess. If I had to guess and put my two cents in right now, it's been going on for some time. Months, if not a year plus that it's been growing, but I don't know. I personally had dogs with tumors. Sure. When they reached that size, they didn't there awhile usually. I mean, one can't say for sure. And I did get to see the dog kind of move around and you can tell it's kind of under its arm. It's armed in there. So yes, it is causing some lack like inability to move normally. Anybody have any further questions? I think Mr. School, I think you'll have a chance to speak a little bit later on. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay, yeah. I don't have any further questions or questions. And I'm sorry, what's your name? Bella Klein. Thank you. So that's what this will look like. I'm Melissa Scalera. I'm a town officer. I was called by my little and informed of this incident. My little and I went, I called Pam. I spoke to Pam. The story that I heard from her, although I think she's the best person to speak on that issue if she's going to speak is that she was riding her bike. A large dog was chained to a camper. The dog slipped its collar. The dog ran after her. She tried to avoid the dog. She went to the opposite side of the street. She fell off her bicycle and severely broke one of her wrists, necessitating going to give her a hospital and then to dart them at her surgery. My understanding, I am not 100% sure if she was bitten. I think she could address that faster than medical reports. It seems like maybe she was scratched. But that being said, it does seem like the dog chasing her, caused her to fall off her bike and severely break the wrist, at the very least. I went down and tried to speak to this girl. He was not home. The dog was there. The dog was inside at the time. The month, one month before that, I had gotten a very similar report. A gentleman named Michelle might not be saying his name, right from Remi Yard, a native of Montreal, was down on a vacation. He was biking with his girlfriend. He was riding past Mr. Skrill's house. The same dog ran out, attacked him, and he says, bit him, and that it still hurts. He went to the hospital as well. He said that he spoke to Mr. Skrill, who was quite nice and sorry and begged him not to sue, and that he would pay for all the expenses, and et cetera. Mr. Remi Yard is very concerned and quite upset. This got me to thinking, and I said, this sounds super familiar to me. And so I pried back into my records and came up with a report from about three or four years ago, and the same exact thing, a tourist, this one from Connecticut, I believe. Gentleman was riding his bike in front of the house. The dog was either untethered or got office-tethered, and bit that gentleman as well. He was inside when I was starting up. There was no way. Okay, but Dan, right now, as they're doing, you'll have your chance to take a note of what you want on. Yeah, take a note of this. I don't forget that he was very surprised. It was several years ago, but the gentleman said to me that he was very surprised because he seemed to think Mr. Skrill blamed him for the night he sent out. So I know that three people have gone to Gifford, and one has been transferred out as a result of aggressive actions with this dog. I can't speak to whether or not this dog has changed his wishes to everybody. There's a child in the house who apparently loves the dog, so that speaks well for the dog, but I will say that he's sent three people to hospital, and he definitely doesn't like people riding by on bicycles. Any questions for Melissa? Have there been any other instances, any instances of this dog acting aggressively toward other dogs, which is something obviously common? I can't speak to that because I only hear about people being bitten, and I only hear about things that either result in the police being called or the person going to the hospital. Milo, are you aware of any? I can tell you from being in the neighborhood, I've never heard anything about it. I know our prior pup went over and played with it. They did fine. And these photos that are in the packet seem to show someone with a really badly scarred and stitched leg. Is that the Canadian gentleman? No, I believe those are Pam who will be next up in terms of what you hear from them. So clearly, okay. Are there any other questions from the board for Melissa? Do you have any more questions from the board? No, we'll move on to Pam. So my name is Pam Fitzgerald. I live in East Randolph. On May 30th, I was riding my bike north under 14. I went by what I now know is Mr. Skrill's house. There was a dog chained, I guess, chained or tied up to a camper. It was a hot day, it was sunny, it was probably in the mid-80s. He was barking and barking and pulling on his chain. And so I tried to move to the other side of the road and speed up, but he managed to get free and he came at me. What I remember, because it was very traumatic and as soon as I saw him coming for me, I was kicking and screaming. And he managed to come around the back of me and must have jumped on me because I have a hole in my shirt and I was wearing a knee on vest. The vest was ripped in the back, unfortunately. We threw it away in the hospital, but I still have the shirt with a hole in it. And then he must have scraped my leg and I was kicking, I couldn't stay upright and I managed to fall over and landed on my right side. I could see right away that I fractured my wrist. The dog definitely growled before it jumped on me, but once I was on the ground, it was there for a few minutes. It didn't try to bite me at that point, but I was screaming so loudly just for somebody to come and help me. Nobody that I know of came out from this grill house, but a young woman stopped and then some other people stopped and the young woman called 911 and stayed with me until the ambulance got there and stayed on the phone with the 911 operator. And then she asked the operator if I wanted the police to respond and I said yes only because it was such a scary incident that I didn't, I love dogs. We've had dogs before that I didn't want that to happen to anyone else and I wanted to make sure that it was documented and so the state police responded and the ambulance came eventually and I don't know where the dog went after that. I think maybe the people that stopped helped corral him. The only thing I remember after that was when I was in the ambulance, someone was screaming who put my dog in the truck, who put my dog in the truck and that's several months later I was on my way to Gifford. So I was treated initially at Gifford where they tried to reduce it and set it but because I guess they don't have an orthopedic on staff that does hand injuries, they were communicating with Dartmouth so they saw they could set it again at Dartmouth and do a better job. So they sent me to Dartmouth about 10 o'clock that night where they reset my hand again and then a few days later I saw the orthopedic surgeon who thought that I would be better off with surgery because I'm active, I ride bikes, I swim, I kayak, we run. So he suggested surgery to stabilize my wrist so the next day I underwent surgery. So I fractured both bones in my wrist and so now I have a metal plate, I've just been out of a cast for three weeks and having therapy twice a week until mid-September when I go back to see the doctor again. Like I said, I love dogs but it was an awful incident, it was scary and I'd hate to see dogs chained up anywhere or caged anywhere. You know, this is your turn so tell us what happened or answer anything or make any statement. I'm deeply sorry, I really am. When I returned to my house, I tried to make sure you were okay but they would not let me talk to you or see you. I'm truly so sorry. There's really not much I can say when it makes everything that's going to say, makes my dog sound to be an ultimately vicious dog and he's really not, he's a protected dog, I rescued him, he was in an abusive house. I just, I don't know, I don't know whatever I can do to make sure that I can help you and follow through with whatever I need to follow through with. He's an old dog, yes, he's had a growth, it's been growing for about two or three months now. I did get him into Malacca's office with my mother a few months ago back in the spring to get him checked out and get the shots but Malacca was what denied giving him a sedative to give him the shot and I said, you know, you need to give him a sedative because the sedative that he had was not working but did attempt it but I did not want him to get it at that moment so I really can't say much. I mean, I can argue a lot of discrepancies in the reports, the chain being broken, that says the chain was broken. Who was this person that put him on the back on the chain? There's a lot of unknown facts which is why I requested the body hand footage but I am responsible as an owner of a dog that has the people. I can't deny that. Can I help you walk through a few things that might help folks understand him which is kind of a land of land, right? So you have a house with a large yard that had fences for a period, right? An area where the dog could go. That's right there. My dog was inside, was recently inside the house on the Friday of the two weeks last week. Do you know where he put thunder lighting? Yeah, he's terrified of thunder lighting. The house that he went to is a friend of ours. The husband that lives there, Nick, he is a friend of mine, he comes over to our house frequently. I don't know why he didn't call me. He showed up, he has my phone number, I have his. You've seen him, he's carried. Maybe you can speak about this thing. I've never seen him. I've never seen him once either, so. He may have gotten injured. People identify themselves as Slyano. I'm Slyano, I've known this dog the whole time as Dan has had him. So he's been an awesome dog, super friendly. I don't know why he's chasing bikes, he always chases the bikes. But the growth, I just saw him four weeks ago, I didn't see any growth. And if it's under his armpit, like you guys say, that's easily missable. Nobody rubs their dog's armpit. So, he may have gotten injured totally over the fence. It's a five foot, five and a half foot tall fence. My neighbors, I can't say if they have or have not been, but there's some matted down area on the opposite side of my fence that's next to our house in the books that somebody have keeled down the fence. I've no way to prove any of that, but that's the other thing. For him to jump over a five foot fence with an injury that is making him limp, I'm not trying to take away any sort of accountability here, but I've not been cruel to my animal. There was a water bowl under the camper. The camper has plenty of space. He likes to go underneath it. I was gone for 45 minutes. I've been in dance house for many times around the dog, and he's always been such a sweetheart. And I've had my children over, he's such a sweet dog. He's therapeutic. I've been there alone and crying. He was comforting me. Very empathetic. And I was at the house the Friday that he, the door of the back door was open because he's the tall dog and he opened the door. He must have jumped the fence because I went, I was the one who called to try to look for him. I went to the neighbor's house because I saw that I'm posted. He was, I saw the picture and he was on the step and he was, he does not like thunder and lightning, so he's very scared. I've seen him many times with thunder and lightning and then put a thunder vest on him for comfort. Because he's very sensitive, but he's a very sweet dog and that doesn't take away anything from, you know, just inviting and stuff, but I've never, ever been scared of him ever. Dan, how long have you had the dog again and where did you rescue? I got him about eight and a half years ago now from one of my students at the new school, Montpelier, I worked with non-verbal autistic kids and I got him from the house of one of my students and he's been a therapy dog for all the clients that I've had now for the past 12 years that have talked to disabilities and never once had there been an incident when there was very supportive caring and nurturing dog. Has he been through the Vermont therapy dog like, no, no, no, no. I think if you were in a room with him and you started crying, you would see right away that he is a very unique dog. Yeah, he's very, very smart. I've recently taken in two kids and their father who have been displaced from the flooding and they love the dog, the dog has been great with them. But he hasn't, he wasn't trained to like visit pediatric or senior citizens or prisons or mental hospitals, psychiatric units or anything like that. But everybody's done it like. I can clarify a couple of points that I think there's some questions about. Holly Engler called me this afternoon and she did inform me that she was the one that curled the dog after Pam was attacked. No one knew me. The question of who did that. And the call I got Friday, I was told that the neighbors must have come over, opened the back door and knocked down the fence in the back. And that's how it got out, so I don't think he jumped in. I'd like to clarify anything more. So this is the problem. This neighbor thing is messing everything up. Seems to be a lot of different factual writings on all these different papers. I've been over this guy's house many times, helping him fix break-ins and all kinds of shit. This is part of the problem. Like you can't keep a dog inside if someone's breaking into your fuckin' house, so I would like. You just need to calm down a little bit. Yeah, I swear, I swear, I swear. It's true. But, I know there's really nothing. I want to do whatever I can to make sure that you get what you want. Again, I'm so terribly sorry to stop you. But in a jury kind of situation, the facts need to be supported, and the dog's show is documented and looked upon and cross-referenced. In this most recent incident where the dog showed up on your friend and neighbor's porch and the lightning and thunder, how did he get out of the house? I don't know, I have no way to work. I left the back door unlocked. When I got to his house, I was going to watch his daughter's farm. I unlocked his front door. The back door was open. Ah, so he managed to open it? I think he managed to open it. I'm not sure. Dogs can get pretty frantic in his house. Yeah, he's afraid of thunder and lightning. It's a pull-up and door. Pull-up and door. Somebody, he has had many incidents, though, of people breaking into his house, so that could be as well. The back door was open then and Beau was not anywhere around. And I started going on to the sites to see if somebody in the area had found him. But he has had locks in his house multiple times. To change locks, he had to put his locks. You can see where there's been crime, crime marks from Provar, the local locks. That does not change my accountability in what I'm trying to do. My dog does not have that much time. He's an old dog. Any dog owner would know that, at some point, dogs pass on, very much like to get him seen, checked out, assessed, but I don't think Malika is the right vet for that. Can you clarify what you said earlier about, did he refuse to give the dog a sedative or did you close and clear what you were saying? He just walked right in with a needle on his hand and Beau had been there before. Beau's been there multiple times. On his record, it is documented that he needs sedatives. I had scheduled the appointment. I had the sedatives. We got there and I said he's not sedated enough. I do not want him to bite anyone. And the secretary said, well, he'll talk to Malika when he comes in. So me and my mother were sitting in the little side room and Malika just walked right in with a needle on his hand and went to go south. And I said, hold on a second. He's not sedated. So you had previously been giving him the sedative the night before and the morning of or whatever. And I said, just for your safety, please let's sedate him some more. And he said, why don't you just straddle him with your legs or push him up against the wall? And I said, that's not, he's been abused when he was younger. I don't want to get into that but he has trauma when people try to force him, muzzle him. That's why he was like that. I had tried to put a muzzle on him years ago when I first saw him and it was, I got that. You know, he went through a lot of trauma. And it's been eight years and he's come along with things, the incident from 2021, my dog was inside. When I got home, my dog was inside. This gentleman was outside of my house by my mailbox. My dog was visibly inside. It seemed through the big bay window. This is the earliest incidents of a bicyclist. 2021 should be in your packet. I mean, the only way that my dog would have done anything is if he had reached in through the doggie door, which has been boarded up since the locksmith came several months ago. And it looked like he got scratched in the arm. My dog was in the house. You can't say that was a bite or not. This juncture is allegations. If I'm not mistaken, correct. What happened with Ms. Fitzgerald is a terrible thing. But we need to look and see what we can do to resolve the issue and make sure it doesn't happen again. And it's a hard thing to navigate through. But the facts are the facts. If you look at your paperwork from the state trooper and the town health officer, the state troopers report. Fitzgerald included that she does not recall if she stopped her bicycle and then fell, or if she was pulled toward the ground by the dog. That's the police report. I'm just going off the facts. I'm trying to make it very clear. It also says that the town health officer, the same incident, victim riding a bike north on Route 14 and a dog was chained to a camper. It broke its chain, ran out and attacked her. She fell and broke her wrist. There is no broken chain. There was nobody that, did you, did you get the, did you get the, did you get Vogue off? Was Vogue on a chain? That makes a big difference. The man in the orange shirt. So guys, we don't want to go back and forth in the audience. The man in the yellow shirt that when I drove up, when I drove up, I was, I was, the car was slow down. Can you identify yourself? I'm sorry. My name is Holly Angle living around up from home. When I drove up, I wasn't sure if I was seeing like a fireman change for gate. I couldn't understand what's happening in the road. And far away from, what's your name? Pam. From Pam, they, you know, quite a distance away from Dan's house, this fella stopped the traffic. I'm going to call him the fella in the yellow orange shirt. And I said, well, what's going on? They put, you know, understand what's going on up in town. And he said, well, stay away, stay away. Van wants this going to come. And he said, the dog got loose. This is what this man in the yellow orange shirt. And I put, I put the dog back on the chain. He said, are you, are you family? Do you know, do you know these people? And I said, yes, I'm family. And I slowly pulled in. Then I, I checked the car, the house. I didn't have a key anymore, but I checked to see. Apparently my view was open. I don't know, it wasn't open to me. So I went to the, I wanted, I felt like I didn't want to leave the dog with this young lady on the street on the, on the dog line. Okay, I didn't want to do that. I said, I couldn't get him in the house. So what he did was I went into the mud truck, checked the driver's side door. To me, it wasn't that hot that day. It was, I don't know, early May. And I, and I, I ranged things in there. So there was a little blanket on the seat. Nice and everything was just for the dog to sit in there. The driver's side door was secure. Window was up. I left the right hand side window. I jar enough for air. And that his body could not pass through there. I was retired nurse. I know things to look for anyway. But I was thoughtful. I will get, I had seen Dan 20 minutes, 15 minutes up at Rancor's just passing him. And he said, oh, I'm just coming right down to the house cause I wanted to drop saying, well, and then I left after I got the dog secured. I went over to this young woman and she was doing her own thing cause she was hurting. But I asked, do you need help? Do you need a tourniquet? Can I get you anything? Do you need a bandage? Do you need water? Is there anything I can do? No, no, no, the ambulance is coming. I said, well, I just felt like I should ask. And then they said, no, we need to go for the ambulance. I got into the driveway to my car and I exited away, so I didn't have to cross the path. And then I called Dan and apparently I had come right back but by the time I came back around the ambulance had already been going. I don't know the in-between. And I have photographs and videos of the dog Beau and Rose and myself. And Rose has lost her, where she brought her, her brandy on her mother's side and has some, during COVID. And she suffered a lot of her own, which you know what you're talking about here, her own stuff that I am very concerned that even though I am concerned about anybody else getting hurt, also there's been studies recently put out about how small events that happen in a young child's loss or whatever can actually amount to more of a problem of post-traumatic stress being long. And that's just a nursing, that's a nursing mother to me. And I just wanted to say I am offering whatever money and if they would like some money value for their injury, I am going to take care of that. I would pay for the dog food when I was with Beau. He'd sleep on the couch next to me. I have videos of a loving dog and it was about a pancake like that size. That's all small. And as a nurse sometimes things just, they grow fast. And he was not limping when I saw him. And I'll pay for his food and I will pay for a very strong substantial fence. I would like everybody to hear that matters in this argument or disagreement to come to some kind of mediation where everybody's needs could be met and I could take care of the things for all of that. And why not give a chance to everybody. And you know, and make your own within the law and everything, rules regulations that have to be complied with, blah, blah, that's my thought. Can we back up a little bit to two weeks before Pam was, I want to say attacked, allegedly attacked, let's say, for the purposes of this hearing. There was the incident with the gentleman from Quebec. Yes. What can you say about that? I can say, I can forget. My mother was over playing with Rose. They wanted to go out front. I reminded her, tighten the collar that goes on bow. She forgot to. No, no, that's not true. Let's look out. That's not true. Absolutely not true. I'm a nurse and I know that you put two fingers in that collar. And I said to myself, when I took that dog before I went out the door, I put my fingers in there, wore for the panel too, put my fingers in there and I felt that that was nice and secure. There was no leeway. And the dog wanted to come in. We were sitting in little chairs. He wanted to come in his winding and I said, let's go to stay out another minute. And then bikes came and then the dog was gone. And I- So how did he get out? He was, I brought him out. I put his collar on, I checked the collar. I personally checked, I know, because I kept saying, it's in my notes from a long time ago and it didn't happen. They slept the collar, right? They slept the collar on. Yeah, the collar. They slept the collar on. I don't have that. That's what I was trying to do. It was still connected, but it wasn't all that good. I hear what you're saying about- The collar opened. I just want to say I hear what you're saying about post-traumatic stress disorder and it's not directly relative to this case. Hang on, but there are plenty of young people who have been attacked by dogs who have lived their life petrified of dogs because they were attacked when they were little kids. So it's a two-way street, just so you understand. And in Florida, I had a dog. She said, you know what I was just saying? So I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about. It was part of what you should reach back and we saw you, yes, and it would always go after them. And I chastised him to get back in-house in Florida and he jumped from an old-screen door, had his feet stuck, and then just chewed my hand. Dogs, some dogs, something like that. But otherwise, great. So we're going to just let's do this- I'm done with this one. Okay, and so Day and I was starting to walk down the path of the fence area in the back, right? Because you have that. And I've seen the dog out there. I doubled the size of it after I bought the house. And I've seen you outside with the dog out front, sometimes on a leash, sometimes not, but always in control, I've never- Anytime he's with me out front, he is under my control and does not do anything wrong. When he is directly with me and my child, whether it's down by the garden, we have another setup with the water bowl and another ground stake and a solid metal chain just as the solid metal tether line that is four feet from the ground anchor. The reason it was not on the ground anchor and tied to the bumper of the trailer is because the ground anchor looks to be like run over, got bent somehow and was very loose. So that day, I put him on something more solid. And the water bowl was underneath the back of the camper where he likes to climb under. He's a digger. In my house, there's a massive- My daughter works for him. A massive hole he likes to dig. He crawls under it. But it's not close to the ground. That camper is 18, 20 inches up, correct? It's not much space. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like- It's enough space. Yeah. And he's got, he's got about like a dog house, right? He's got a huge backyard of all things down there. Yeah, he could shade it under there. Yeah. It's not like I left him outside in, you know, left for hours without water or without shade. I went down to the floating bridge to help someone load a small truck camper into the truck. It was part of her in 45 minutes. I'm sorry that the state trooper missed the picture of that, but I think what was more important at that moment was the incident that I was missing with Cheryl. Any questions? I don't, anybody in the audience have anything they'd like to add or any questions? I'd just like to say that whatever, I was actually attacked in town by a dog that I reported to the select court. The different hearing that we had. Oh yeah. He's random. Right by my house, actually. Yeah. I remember it was because I had a permanent injury in my hand as a result of the bite from that dog. I think it's really important that whatever this, you know, board decides, whatever the select board decides, that there's a follow up to make sure that the owner complies with the restrictions or whatever limitations or whatever steps that the board feels needs to be taken and that somehow there's a system in place for following up to make sure that's done because I got bit after the select board meeting and quite a long time after, a week or more after the select board meeting and no follow up with the family had been done in that period of time. So, you know, I think it's very good that the select board, you know, looks at it and acts on it, but it's important that there be follow up and that the select board is monitoring that the follow up is being done. This was the incident on 14 at Tumbridge Road. Yeah. Yes. So, I was out of town for that hearing. My understanding is the select board, when I received the report, required a dog pen to be built around the door which was an inefficient one, but it was done, but the incident occurred because they had other doors to the outside and they let the dog out a different door. So, that solution doesn't always work and that was a horrible incident that happened down there because that dog got out of it. I'm getting my, maybe some of these past cases a little bit mixed up. This isn't the dog that subsequently attacked another dog and. And basically skinned it a lot. Yes. Can we redirect and stay away from us? It's fine, yeah, absolutely. I'm just trying to respond to it. I just want to make sure that whatever follow up that is in this case. I agree with you. Please, we'll follow up. Yeah, yeah. I agree a lot with what you're saying. I'm sorry that you had to go through a traumatic experience, I really am. Melissa? For you. Hang on, Melissa. Hello, gentlemen. Maybe we should finish and then I have a question. So, I think the main concern Daniel Sprill has already got is charges for animal cruelty. That's not this board. That's not up to us. That's not us. No. Yeah, that would be my, so I am responsible for enforcing the state regulations as far as I can represent. I mean, Daniel had a few conversations about the statutes and what he would be required to do to avoid those charges, including addressing animal issues. On that note, I would appreciate in the future if the town members in the municipal office were not telling people that I was being charged or any future people being charged with a crime when there has not been actual charges. Because it's been said to multiple people outside from this office over the past few days. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because I was terrified when I heard it from Kim and then I heard it from Milo and then I called and directly spoke with him. Yeah, we talked through everything. There's an understanding of what's gonna be required to avoid that. Yeah. Can I ask a question? I don't know if this is my role. Just to me, it seems like there's two issues. There's the safety of people. And there's the health of this dog. You've offered to, Ms. Engler, you've offered to pay for everything. I've had a sick cat and I can tell you how much money. I don't have some money. But would you be, you know, I don't know if this is germane or not, but it sounds like this dog is going to need an expensive surgery before we even know what's gonna happen with the dog. I think, you know, as an nurse to nurse. When it comes to that, I tried to get in contact, I was told not to contact the vet. But you're willing to pay for this. But you all are, let's go see what the vet says. I was glad to do it when I tried to. So I had surgery, so at least see what's going on. Microwave. Shortly. He's gone through what's going on and what's the need. Yeah, the suit. The things that it needs still, I just have to determine the health condition. Yeah, so talking to the vet earlier today, his opinion is that the dog needs to get a biopsy to determine if the tumor is cancerous or benign, and regardless of either to have that mass removed. So I think the cost of that is determined by whether it's cancerous or not. Of course, and then you kind of make the decision on what you're gonna do at that point. But at the bare minimum, what's required is the determination of cancerous tumor versus benign, and then the removal of that mass. The scope of the surgery is significantly different. But that's not our issue. That's not our issue right here. So I think for the town, we need the dog registered. The dog needs to be vaccinated and registered. It hasn't been registered since 2019. That's not true. My rabies vaccination just ran out three months ago. It was not registered with the town of Randall. They're two separate process. Licensed versus he was registered after he got his vaccine. If it must have been under a different name, it was not there. It was a three year vaccine. You have to do it every year. So the last one was 2021. And it's a three year vaccine. It's on this. Is that the time of the instructions every year, right? Licensing is every year. No, I understand that. I'm sorry. I was late again. Yes, I understand. So COVID kind of put me into isolation. So the town, it's just the babies, but a current certificate and the registration. And then from the state, we just need the medical issues addressed. But does the, I guess where I'm headed of this is, does the town have the ability to hold the dog if the state side isn't settled? Or if you have the ability to. I would work in collaboration with Milo too, to do that. So in this case, the state supersedes the town, right? Well, not necessarily. I'm wondering that what I'm trying to figure out here is I don't want to have Daniel leave here thinking if he gets his bravies and his registration, we can get the dog tomorrow. If the state's then going to say, no, we got to hold it longer. We need to address the medical issues, which I've talked to and did about that. But we would also need to be addressing the medical issues and to get that procedure done in order for the dog to be relieved and to avoid any talking about animal cruelty charges. I know you don't want that put out, but that's what we're talking about. Yeah, no, I understand that. Who's holding the dog at that time, though? Right, who does have my dog? Well, does the town release? So if we come up with a solution tonight, it's got the fenced area, it gets its vaccinations, it gets registered. So it sounds like the three of us need to have a conversation about financial responsibility and who's going to pay for this procedure, right? So if that's going to happen succinctly, and the dog is in medical care right now, with that if you're ready to start that procedure, it can kind of just be continuous. But I understand that's kind of two pillars that we're talking about right now. Yeah, I tried to start that process. Well, is it a town? Right before I spoke with you and I was told not to contact or go to the vet. Just to stress this out, because I don't know that the town can hold the dog if it's the state issue. If we address the town issue, I want to just try to figure out who legally, I'd like to interject. So the town, can you just hold on? The board is having a conversation right now. Thank you. Right now the town has technically, I think, impounded the dog for violation of the order issued in June. So if the town issues are addressed, but the dog still needs to remain impounded, does that transfer to the state at that point, and then we would kind of take over from there and we would see our process. I know we need to interject in the wrong way, I'm sorry. I just wanted to say, just on the sake of your piece, no, I'm not telling this to you, just a thought. Whether anybody pays something first, I think Daniel or you figure out where is this going to happen. The dog, even if it had the shots, I would not put the dog home because that is inflicting possible pain, which could make another reaction of a bite. So therefore this, between you guys, figure out who is going to be the veterinarian, and then between you all, and then you can contact me on that. Can we just stop the state conversation? We're into this at this point. I want to bring this back to what the town's responsibility is. Are you going to tell me what the town's responsibility is? No. But if the town impounded the dog via the health officer, I didn't impound it. No. Okay, because she does have the state statue under her authority. Yeah, but she didn't impound it. And I'm not sure that I don't think- But she could. Well, but I don't know that we want that. I don't think we want that. Okay. I think what we need to figure out is from the town's perspective on this hearing what that takes, and it's the vaccinations and the registration, and then whatever conditions. And usually it's defense, it's some things like that. And then it becomes between just you and the state on the other part. The town doesn't need to be involved in that for any reason. So I have a question. So if we're going to hold the dog until whatever you decide is met for confining the dog at home, so it cannot under any circumstances, he'd be impounded at the owner's expense until all those were met. But before maybe that, this dog has cancer and it's best to just not even wake it up than the vaccinations and fencing in the yard and the hospital critically. That was kind of a big question, Marlborough. That was kind of a big question, Marlborough. No, go there until we get an actual vet tube. Was that the dog needs to be sedated in order to do certain procedures? Yes. If it's going to be sedated, that's when he would want to do this biopsy and all that. And I would ask if it's possible to have a different vet do this because... And that's going to be at your expense in the first place. Yes, yeah, of course. Well, you decide who the vet is. Yeah, well, I didn't know until I talked with Tim on Tuesday, right, Tuesday when I talked with you. Anyway, it was at Malacas and I was not allowed to call or go there. And then Marlborough also told me the same thing, correct? I said that you couldn't get your dog back enough. You needed to wait until the hearing. Don't call or don't go until after the hearing. Who was your... Yeah, we're kind of getting off. I just wanted to make sure I can get... Was Dr. Malacca your former vet? Yes, he was. He was the one that I brought him to prior and he did not want us to date him even though the records indicated he needed sedation. I think going to another vet would be a good choice. It's your choice, but that is on your dog. The question I have in that is in the meantime, the dog is still under the town's impoundment order. And the town is that Dr. Malacca's not a different vet. So how do we arrange that to safely transport the dog, make sure the dog is gonna, if it survives, goes back to Malacca's until such times do we have so it's... I can transport the dog safely. That's not a problem. The dog will be transported in a way you feel is... To the question of sedation, Milo, I mean, I have a dog that has to be sedated because he's just not, he's the most lovable, least vicious creature in the world. He just gets flipped out when he goes to the vet. I mean, totally like frantic, but not like biting, just like a nervous wreck. And so he gets two pills at night and then one in the morning of on an empty stomach just to go for a routine exam. So presumably if we were to see a switch of vets here, you would sedate the dog as you have in the past. Yeah, I asked for a larger sedative because it wasn't working in the problem. Maloxapin or whatever. I just want to make sure that I do whatever I can do. Take a motion and we can do it at the end of the night. So the rest of these people aren't sitting here. Another concern is that if the dog is transferred to another vet, that we're gonna have to work with that vet and then the dogs then need to get, again, transferred back, probably with our involvement to make sure that the dog actually goes, assuming it survives those vets. Is Dr. Moloka the go-to vet for impounding dogs in random? We have a contract with that. And it's a contract between the town and Dr. Moloka. And it's re-identified with the location. I can't look at any of the numbers. But it's, I mean, I guess it would be between you and Daniel on how quickly that move happened and that evaluation. I was told not to call until I know. Well, no, we're just telling you right now what we're gonna have to do is work with them. Do I have permission to call with that? Would you be comfortable letting him do the evaluation, if not the surgery, at least to know what's going on? And then if he chose, if he decided to choose another vet with the surgery, whether it's benign or malignant, he doesn't have to do the surgery but he could still do the biopsy. I'll do whatever needs to be done. Yeah, I'm just trying to. I don't think that's ours to do. I don't think that part's ours to do. It sounds like it could even be a, sounds like it could even be a biopsy. I don't think I have to vet to make sure that he's staying in care of what I've been told in the past few days. I mean, I'm not a veterinarian and I'm nowhere near as probably knowledgeable as Milo and Holly, right? Milo and Holly. Milo, sorry. It almost sounds like this could be almost like a needle biopsy. It may not even be that invasive. So he could do that. And then if you wanted to take the dog to Bethel or anywhere else in the area, you could do that. Basically, it was a local farm then because I had a small, birth-side farm. Well, it used to be a farm dog. I mean, he liked to play with the pigs in the house. He used to play with the deliberative session. Yeah. And when we go into deliberative session at the end of the evening, would that be your suggestion? Yeah. So I will move that we close this hearing and that we go into deliberative session at the conclusion of the this evening's regular select board meeting and then report out to all the parties involved with our decision. Will that be by a phone call? Usually a letter, isn't it? I think what you can do is right after this, right after this vote we take is go out and work out a plan for the medical care of the dog. The town, we're not gonna have anything to do with that on this. This is literally gonna be get it, get the rabies shot, get it licensed, and then what the conditions are. We've done like, it has to be in a hysteria or you're under your control or things like that. And again, just to reiterate, he has never under my personal control with me ever done anything like this. I've always kept my dog when it's with me. Safe. Things happen. Unfortunately, I think you got two separate issues going on and it probably got a little confusing on who's doing what and how that all plays. If you read all the stuff, there's a lot of confusing things, there's unknowns and this and that. I wanna make sure that I do whatever needs to be done. Okay. So I think your best path is to have a conversation about where you want the dog to be seen, who you want to remain in. It can be seen where he is. But you can go work that out with you in a while. Can we get a second time? Second, not motion. Yeah. All those in favor? Five. Five. Some moves, motion carries. Entertain a motion to adjourn the dog hearing. Some moves. Second. All those in favor? Five. Those, motion carries. So can we get you to take a brief pause in between and maybe we can connect to the ethernet and solve some of this stuff? Yeah. Go for it. Good. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Restart. Thank you. Hey folks, on Zoom, we're gonna try to restart the machine. If you get kicked out, please sign back on. We're hoping this will connect us in a better way. We'll be looking for you. So if you get kicked out. See how awesome we are. Thank you everybody. All the select board meetings to order. Where's my screen? Um, Milo. Milo. Thank you. Milo, can you take that upstairs, please? Yeah. Thank you. First up is public comment. This is public comment to the select board at this point for something that's not currently on the agenda. And I will tell you, I'm gonna be strict about the two minute rule. So, go. I'm Betsy from our Beast Valley Community Group. I'm a teacher. I believe in visuals. You believe in fact. And if my two minutes, if I'm done and I don't get finished. We just wanna give you an update of what we're doing and where we're at. You know, we've got the slogan bringing it back. And we've got a lot of community drive going on. This is going to be several phases of work. You all know this. The initial project, and these are somewhere some sequential order is the foundation, which the estimates that you're seeing there are based on the bread loaf inspection and architectural assessments that they did. The structural stability which needs to go on would go on during the foundation time along with that. That's about another 250,000 bread loaves put it in at 465,000. The ADA compliance and fire codes, these have to happen in order to open. Restrooms, sandicap, lift entrances, electrical, 255,000. Building longevity, that's siding, exterior doors, lighting, insulation, painting, that doesn't necessarily have to happen in order to open. Currently, the EVCG has raised 45,000 in funds from private donors and fundraising that we've started our capital campaign. We have four active grants submitting, totaling over 400,000, our per being the largest request. Future projects, roof, kitchen, clock tower, landscaping, those are all down the road. We do want you to know that speaking of the future, we get phone calls, I get phone calls, wanting to know if the hall can be used. Running into people at different places wanting to know if it can be rented. I've had calls from undertakers, I've had calls from, sorry, I thought I saw two of them, you know? Yeah, they don't have places for families to get, yeah. Yeah, I had a call from a state committee wanting to know if there was something. Chamber of Commerce, White River Valley Chamber of Commerce, Linda tells me that they have people calling all the time for places, wanting places to meet. So I think this could be a very well marketed property of the town. And now that there's online marketing, which is pretty effective, could generate for the hall and have a lot of income. The whole thing for your marketing, that's the big thing. We get all this attention, no marketing ever. We start marketing in a whole different world. And it adds increased attention to the village and enhances property values as well as economic growth. We have two questions for the select board. Would the town apply for municipal grants? And we could help with funding. The grants that we're trying to apply for are not as big as what the town can apply for. That's what we're finding. We hope to see the value in restoring your hall, we hope you see the value in restoring your hall, and you'll put this high on your list as accomplishments on the select board. Any questions for us? Other here? Oh, okay. I just wanted to ask you. Any other public comment? Seeing none, we'll move into approval of the agenda. So we'll have, before there was the one change if you're willing to consider it would be to the public assembly permit, RACDC just wants to set a rain date for the next First Friday event. That's right. So it would be, you amend your agenda to include that as part of 5D. I'll move approval of the agenda, is it 5D? Yeah, 5D, sir. I'll move the approval of the agenda with the amendment that we consider a public assembly permit for RACDC rain date under 4D. So we'll second. I've heard, I don't know. I'm watching the second one. Is that okay here? Aye. Do you say it was motion carries? Except it's a consent calendar. It's just a minute and there's the warrants are going around to get some signatures. What we have here is a captive audience. Yes. Thank you. I think they're all signatureed up. Is there a motion on those? Aye. Motion to approve the consent calendar. I'll second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed? Next up is the vacancy and the timeline and process for peculiar. So yep, Erica officially submitted a resignation on the 2nd of August. We have posted the notice of vacancy in the town offices on the website. We'll put it in two other spots in town that hits all the statutory requirements. We've got to do this before Saturday, basically, which is 10 by 10 day window. And then we can use other channels when the time comes. We might just use those once you've decided on a process for anybody who's interested in it and wants to apply. So the way statute structure would a member resigns, there are some statutory reasons for removal, but I know I can't remember actually a scenario where I've actually seen those in 20 years. So in this case, it says that the remaining board members can meet and appoint somebody forthwith. Stay-alive doesn't say what that means in terms of a number of days, so you go back to a common. Basically means as soon as you can. When we've had vacancies closer to an election date, the decision has been there's so few meetings in between when the vacancy occurs and when the voters can make the selection that we've generally just left it to the voters. We did this last year, for example, when Pat wasn't able to continue on the board past the December meeting. So now that we're in August, going to September, no November election, I think it's appointment time. If you appoint someone or when you appoint someone, they serve for the remainder up until the next election. So in this case, they'll serve until March. Erika was fulfilling the unexpired remainder of a three-year term anyway, so it was effectively a one-year term. So everyone who runs in March for this seat will run for a full three-year term, not the remainder of another term, just based on how the calendar comes together. But this appointment is just from now or whenever you appoint until March. Until town meeting in March 2024. And so then the questions for you are essentially, the traditional way to go about this is we put the notice of vacancy out there, we essentially do some advertisements to say, hey, we've got this vacancy. If you're interested in being considered for appointment, send us an email or a letter of interest, anything that you think's relevant in terms of service, professional background, personal interest, whatever it might be, whatever you think might be of interest. And at some point you set up some time to consider those applicants, perhaps you do some interviews. And then at some point you can either appoint an open session following that or do it as you've done, or you have the mechanism to do after an executive session. So really the questions are, would you like to sort of a traditional, we'll advertise for it and we'll use the normal channels. So everything from our website to the paper to the front porch forum to all of those things. We'll collect those back in and then we'll set you up for a meeting where you can interview candidates. And then so then the other question is, do you want to try a special meeting so that you could possibly appoint someone before the September meeting? Because there's about a five week gap in our meeting schedule just based on how the calendar falls this year. Do you want to do a special toward the end of August or do you just want to do it at that September meeting in one shot? So those are the two real questions for you. How do you want to advertise at a point, go through the point of process and then do you want to do it in the in-between or at a regular? So in the past, have you been through this path? I've been through this path personally in another. In another life. Touristic. That's a total different life. Oh yeah. We've advertised in any way we could to get the word out. And then we've allowed everybody that applied to come in and meet with the board. We've already passed. In the past. And then we kind of narrowed it down. And one time we had, I think we came down to two. One time we came down to two and we had equal two of us wanted one candidate, two of us wanted the other. So we went without one for a while. Right. It's, we didn't allow them to be culled through by somebody else. Like all the applicants came to the board members. We all met with all of them. Right. And kind of talked about what was important to us. It wasn't like a job interview so we didn't have to stick with standard questions or whatever, but. Are those interviews conducted in Dublin? They are. So it's a special meeting or at a regular psych board meeting? Either way, it's. I think it's not an exact reception. One person or two people that apply. Or is the decision discussed in these, deliver it? You can consider it. Then you want to probably go with a special day, I would think. Yeah, August is a tough month to her cats. I think we've got to see how many people apply, right? If you get one or two, you can do it at a regular meeting. If you get 10, you're stuck in a special meeting. I don't have the sense that people are going to be knocking the door down. Why? Just your weight. Well, we'll see. We're pretty fun to watch these days. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, August is a little tough. I would rather just kind of. I think we advertise, see how many there are as we get close to the September date, figure out. I don't want to switch up. September 14th is our special meeting. But if we have to, we could meet earlier in September. Right. Right. Right. And do something. How far in advance do we have to warn the special meeting? It's just 48 hours, right? Yeah, I mean, it's special in that it's off your regular calendar, but we'd warn it like it were a regular meeting. So it's, yeah, the 48 hours, no less than 48 hours. And the deadline for advertising is when? Oh, in terms of posting everything. We just talked about. Yeah, so for a Thursday meeting, we have to post by Tuesday. No, no, for advertising the vacancies. Oh, so what we'll do is probably set it out and set some kind of deadline. And then at this point, we might set it at least two weeks out. Yeah. Possibly even three, just because you have enough time. Yeah. And we'll see. You'll have to set it out of ways because you got to get it in the hair roll. But you're not mandated a certain time, right? Not for the advertising piece now. No. The pieces that are mandated that have a timeframe associated with the posting of the notice of vacancy. And then there's that time element of fourth wave. Well, getting it in the hurled is just getting it in by Monday and noon. Well, yeah, but that's... I was just saying, you got to wait for Thursday for the paper to come out. Right. And then you got to give them time. But we could conceivably have an add-in have an add-in this Monday for next. Yeah, they would come out on the 17th. We'd have it online a few places too, town hall. And then from Port Form and Floyd's and all the usual suspects. Yeah. And then if we had a deadline of September 1st, grab locations that'd be three weeks from tomorrow. September's coming. And then that would, we had a lot of applications. We could decide to maybe do a special meeting on the 7th of September, for example, one week before our actual select corps meeting. Is that how it works? I would really, what's that? Well, yeah, yeah, but it would, it would give us enough Labor Day week too. And I don't know. I think given all the things that are on our plate this fall, that having somebody on board for the September 14th meeting would be perfect. I mean, we've got the whole police services committee issue. We're going into the budgeting cycle a week or two, I mean a month or two later. At least they'll, you know, if they don't come in until October. You're gonna hear about some more stuff tonight too with flood recovery. About what? Flood recovery. Okay. So yeah, there's, and we've got the ARP of decisions to make. I mean, there's just every reason in the world. Are you saying we're not competent? What's that? Are you saying we're not competent? We need somebody to help us? No, no, no. That's been a lens by some. We won't go there. I can't read, so do I know. Got that pretty well set. Okay. Okay. Let's talk about the topic nobody wants to do with just setting the property tax rate. Can we wait until we have another select book? I'm kidding. I don't blame it on them. Fit it on the nuke again. So Mimi is here with us. You had some materials from her and Dennis in your packets to consider about the rates, sort of the usual, not only the breakdowns for this year, but also giving you sort of a multi-year comparison. To the extent that there's ever good news in anything related to taxes for folks, the more conservative estimates we put in place when we were talking about the budget, when it was before voters, whether it be for the general fund or the revised police fund budget, those rates are gonna be a little bit lower than what those estimates show. The reason for that is that those grand lists grow. I mean, basically, in the simplest terms, grand list growth was a little bit more robust than those projections, and so those rates are down a little bit from what was forecast. So those are a couple of good things, more grand list growth than you expect. Slightly lower set of rates than expected. This is independent of the school rate, which is up and has its own process of being set that I wouldn't even dare to wait it to. Yeah, so that the public is understanding, maybe Mimi could walk us through the changes and explain what we do have control over in the town government and what we don't have control over. Sure, sure. So the tax rate, basically, is the municipal budget divided by the grand list divided by the municipal budget. We're in charge of our own residents in the municipality. The difference with the state tax, the education tax, is they don't use our grand list, the municipal grand list, not anymore, not since Act 61 in what, 1998? Yeah, that's 60, yeah, 98, yeah. So back in the 90s, what they did was they decided so every kid could have an equal access to education. You know, like some kids in Chelsea would still have the same payment budget as kids in Woodstock, whatever. Is that what you want to know? Am I going too far back? No, that's good. I think some people feel like this. It controls everything in that tax list, so that's what I wanted to know. So what happens with the state education tax rate is the state, we all pay into a state grand list. Every single municipality, core, whatever, we all pay into a state grand list, and the state then divvies that up for everyone else. And unlike a municipal tax list, that's where our CLA comes into play, where if you have like a house that the fair market value is like 200,000, but we only have it assessed for 100,000, the state's like, well, you understand we're not fair market value, so we're going to apply that CLA and get our money anyways. Whereas a municipal tax rate, we don't apply the CLA to make up for fair market value. So I think that's like the biggest difference. I mean, it can, that's good, right? Right. Any other questions? I mean, it's so, the state tax rate, the education tax rate, could be like an hour, I feel. So basically when we look at the change that people are going to see in their tax rate, a 10 cents of that change is all education tax. That's part of the budget you vote on separate. This board has no jurisdiction over it. And I brought, I don't know, if you guys want to, for fun, you can always go, maybe it's fun for me. But you can go on the PVNR, the poverty evaluation reviews website and put in search engine, state education tax rate, and they have like a really cool buy map that you can compare your town's education tax rate and CLA to everyone else's. One change this year is we used to call it the non-residential tax rate, and now it's called the state has changed it to non-homestay. But the jump in the education tax rate has nothing to do with my office at all. Or what, this board does. Or what this board does. Two separate grand lists. And we just, we're just the messenger. With a bag man for the next year. Yeah, like if you want to change it, like you know, work on the legislature. That's why Dennis wants to do that. But so yeah, so I gave the board, because Dennis and I like math, we like to show you how we did the math. So you have that and you can check it against the town report, you know. But we use the amount voted to be raised by taxes. So there's two, when you vote, you know, you have the two amounts and we use the amount voted to be raised by taxes, plus the special appropriations. And that gave us a general fine. We divided that. Well, you guys, do you want me to go through this list? No. We just went through the whole thing to get to basically the municipal grand list divided by the budget equals our tax rate. The police district has its own grand list. And we divided that by the police budget. The local agreement tax rate is basically the veterans' exemptions. The state will pay and accept on the education grand list $10,000 per veteran we have. The town voted at some point to do the extra $30,000. And so that's on us to pay into the education tax rate. So that's what the local agreement tax rate is, is the special appropriations plus the veterans' exemptions divided by the grand list. And that's where that tax rate. The general, the overall tax rate includes the general fund, the highway fund and the library fund. And with whether it's police or those, the amount to be raised by taxes is what the budget's set by voters minus the expected non-tax revenue. And that's how you get to that amount. So it's already factored out any of those non-tax revenues that we're expecting in each of those. So with that before us, we have the new rates, which are based on budgets. The voters have already approved. Yep. And unfortunately, it looks like the education tax jumped a lot this year. Yeah, the one thing that made the education tax rate jump so much and why it didn't jump last year is because last year, what the state did with its emergency funds and part of like the COVID relief is they took extra funds and boosted and bolstered the education grand list, you know, from all the money that they weren't able to make. So the tax rate wouldn't change. And this year, they didn't put extra money into the education grand list like they did last year. So. And the issues with the CLA are being addressed through the re-encrasal process that's well underway? Yeah. Well, I think the important thing to point out though is in 22, the education tax was $1.56. They put money in it only dropped it to $1.54, but this year they're after $1.64. So they saved us two cents and then nailed us 10. Yeah, I was looking at it, I sure did. I think part of that is our CLA. I mean, it's one part of the education, one part, there's more parts. Any questions by anybody on the board? If not, I'll- If you could explain what a CLA is, I'm kidding, in 25 words or less, you wouldn't be forever in my admiration. I'd be a hot commodity. You certainly would. Thank you. I've written about it and I don't under, I mean, I'm not sure I understand it. Challenge accepted. No, I don't. No, no, no, no. Do you want to take action on that one? I motion to approve the property tax rates for fiscal year 24. And I will second it. All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Reluctantly, it passes. Next up, we have a request to appoint Rachel Arsenal to the Development Review Board. I'm guessing you're, to be communicated, we have never seen it. You're Rachel, then I'm guessing, yeah. Rachel is here. We have material supplied in advance. As I mentioned in the report, you have at least two seats on the DRB, expiring terms of different lengths. One that expires essentially at the end of our turn to April of 2024, and the one that expires in 2025. I don't know if you have a preference, Rachel, for either of those. I'm willing to volunteer. We take up the longest. I would say the longest sentence allowed by law. So there's certainly room. It was here to... Only over the six months and nothing helped out. Well, I did 20 something years on it, so... I'm on. Anybody have any questions on this? Yeah, do you need anything from me? Any questions on the table? I know Rachel. I feel like she'd be a great candidate. Is that a motion? Oh, sorry. I do as well, so I would second that motion. Second my motion? Second that motion. Second that motion. We're moving. Thanks. Have a motion. Second the motion. Favorite? Aye. Opposed? Congratulations. Congratulations. You said you're on. We have a permanent request. You're on, but I can't hide it. I was just telling us, New World Festival and we're asked to add a rain date to first Fridays. Questions? Anybody have any questions? I'll go back. Do you want me to hold it then for a little bit? No, I'll go back. Okay. So with the New World Along, we've been working through some of the traffic control stuff. We were hoping to resolve it. We may have to do sort of a special action a little bit later once we resolve that. And it sort of reflects the fact that law enforcement has been in flux from last year to this one, if you can imagine that. So Scott and the doer director of the channel have been working through that community. So we may want to just stick a pin in that one until we can resolve those things. Can we do that by email? I think we would probably go just based on the timing with that. You can prove it and ratify it. Approve it tonight and then ratify it pretty well? Or hit it there once it's all set. Or we can approve it once Scott is comfortable with it. You could also do a conditional motion to satisfy? If it helps. I mean, we're at right now is in regards to one officer at what times. It's a question that they're going to go with Red El PD. It's for how long? At the contract rate? Now would they likely bring in and outside? We need our concert services. The traffic control pieces are being conducted by the Norwich Cadets. And then that's typical. And then the law enforcement entity would be that contracted officer. And we'll probably have a officer in the village anyway. So in essence, you'll have two one on normal patrol. One doing the detail. Is a way that's looking to shape out. Looks and sounds like the event itself will be relatively similarly structured if not identical to years past. And notice that Chloe from Chandler is on up on the zoom here. So if you have any questions about the event or for her hearing available as well. So you could do a conditional motion in the sense to say you approve it pending resolution of any issues. About the police coverage and. I will move on that we conditionally approve pending resolution of police coverage. To whose satisfaction. To the satisfaction of the rental police. Okay. And that we approve the rain dates for. Second. Second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you know one thing we've talked about but haven't actually done anything that was removable garbage too. Not that I'm aware of because we have. We have a volunteer. I'm saying we because I used to be. Right. Director of Chandler. There's a very dedicated long time volunteer trash crew. Has always. Taking care of that. There's a main builder. Any of them like. I have a motion but we don't have a second. Second. All those in favor. Aye. Opposed. Motion carries. I think. Thank you all. Thank you. Hi. We have an RACVC. Rain date. The eighth is a possibility. September 1st is the regular. September 8th would be the rain date. So I would I would move that we. Approve an amendment to the. Permit to allow for a. September 8 rain day. Before I. Second date. Scott you have any questions about that or any concerns. I know it's kind of more low key. Yeah. Okay. I second. All those in favor. Hi. Motion carries. By request. Thank you. I'm. The committee. Council on Rural Development. To discuss the late river. Balee inter-regional. Energy coordinator. Lord. That's me. Of course. So my name is Nicole. I'm the resigning chair. Of the vessel energy committee. Come join it. I'm resigning. I grew up here in Randolph. Now it's about an East Bethel. I'm half a mile from Randolph. I'm half a mile from South Hamilton, depending on which way that goes. So we're in that little corner. And I've been the chair of the Energy Committee for four years. I've had the opportunity to connect with neighboring towns in the white river valley, including Randolph. And as we talk amongst ourselves, I've been noticing gaps. And I like noticing gaps. I have a master's degree in business administration. I love organizational process, strategic planning, all that stuff. So we're noticing these gaps. We're short on volunteers. The people who we do recruit, they don't have the industry knowledge and they don't always have strong administrative skill sets. So sometimes great for outreach, staffing a table. But when we talk about something like, should we install an electric vehicle charging station somewhere, our conversations are really falling short. And this is happening from town to town. And we can see this quantified in the T work report card that came out in 2021. And you all got one here in Randolph too. I'm not sure does anybody remember that? There we go. So Randolph got a C, pretty much everyone in the upper white river valley got a C. So that shows us we're falling short. And there are specific benchmarks for the year 2025. And I know we're not going to reach them in Bethel, for sure. So as the energy leaders have been collaborating, we're saying, what can we do to realistically meet that benchmark? And we're looking at the idea of coordination. Should we hire a coordinator? We stole this idea from T work. They have an intermunicipal regional energy coordinator, Iraq, who serves like Sharon Barnard Woodstock, seven towns banded together, went to T work and hired somebody. So those towns, and if you also look in the data that accompanied the select board packet, those towns that already have a coordinator have really high median incomes. Like Norwich, Vermont is included on there, highest one in the state. So we're obviously there's a difference between us and them. The towns we're looking at, Upper White River Valley, Tumbridge, Brookfield Braintree, Rochester area. We have low median incomes below the state average, all of us. Randolph is the highest one and it's still below the rent, the Vermont state average median. So I know that Gary approached Randolph in 2022 about the idea of possibly collaborating with other towns. Do you all remember that? Oh, yeah. Okay. I wasn't here yet. So that idea was imploded and at that time we're all pulling in different directions. And I'm over here saying let's make a timeline, let's make a plan. So I applied to VCRD for Human Resources Assistance and I've been working with Laura Cavan Bailey from VCRD to form the assistance we applied for was to host a discussion series in the White River Valley. We want to pull back this energy coordinator idea and say, is this really a good idea? If we get everyone in the room together, are we agreeing that maybe we should pursue this? That's the purpose of the project, conversations we're right in the middle of right now. So I'm here today to give you an update on that. The conversations have been so productive, having a higher, like she's not hired by us, but a professional moderator coming in and helping us talk to each other. There's VCRD, T-Work, Vital Communities. They're all involved in this conversation. They have a representative coming out. Also, we have a representative from VTC and from Tri Valley Transit who have been on the fridges tuning in. So that's what's happening right now with that. And what I sent to you all was the notes from meeting number one. And what we did is we got together. It was a smaller meeting to begin with with Bethel, Rochester, Royalton. Nobody from Randolph had that one. The people I've been connecting with here have been Susan Mills. She's still on the energy committee. It still exists. And Larry Sakowitz. I've been including them in Kim. I sent Kim a lot of updates. So, you know, they weren't present at this first discussion. The people who were said, you know, what are our assets? What do we have going for us? What are our challenges? And then we brainstormed a list of ideas. What can we do? And we came up with somewhere around, like, 10 ideas. And we sent them out in a survey and said, whether one who can't be in the room today or, you know, have volunteerism is sometimes you just need to do a survey. So we threw it out there, did it over a month. And when we got the results back, we had, which I did not send around yet. These are very new. When we got the results back, there was 10 towns who responded. And the biggest vote was establish a structure to hire an intermunicable regional energy coordinator. So at this point, the group is saying, we want to pursue action items related to this project. And we made a list of action items. One of the top five is find out which towns are genuinely interested, which is also part of why I'm here tonight. And you know, also create a position discretion. So, you know, something that I want to see in everybody's mind is, if this becomes a reality, what do you need help with? Do you have specific projects, tasks, grant writing as a big one? On our survey, volunteer coordination was a huge one. If we can just get people, motivating people, you know, sometimes you just need that mechanism where there's somebody right in the middle saying, like, yes, I will help you with the project and connect you with this person. So I'm going to pause at this moment and let you all absorb and give me any questions if you have any popping up in your mind. We talk about creating a structure outside of two rivers because that provided the structure for the 7-Town Woodstock Barnard that you referenced, right? Well, you should have a parent somewhere. Right, right. If that person's got to be on somebody's payroll. Right, right. I'm just saying, I'm just trying to clarify what you mean by establishing a structure because the structure is already there. It's just a question of where this person's going to live rather than creating some whole new entity, right? So I'm just trying to get some clarity on what you mean by that. It's a good question. So meeting number three, we're going to be fleshing that out further. There is the possibility of T-Work being the parent. There's also the possibility of one of the towns hosting this position probably ran out for Bethel realistically because they're the only two towns with town managers. I can't imagine any other town really wanting to pick that up. So, you know, there was also a position. Do you remember Stephen Bauer? Yes, but he's now the zoning administrator of Woodstock. So his position at T-Work was to be a regional energy coordinator for everyone outside the seven towns. And he was funded through ACCD, a grant through there, and he was hosted by T-Work. So when we say establish the structure, we're trying to flesh out those specific pieces. Where's the funding going to come from? Who's going to be the host for this person? And then going on job description, what are they actually going to do? There's flexibility here because this is an unprecedented role. We're really breaking through and we're ahead of the state and other rural towns in the state and the country just by having this discussion about how to reach those. What's the Council on Rural Development's role in all of this? So, VCRD, we're familiar with them because they've come through, they did R3, they did Rochester Area Climate Initiative, and so they were doing the program, it's called the Climate Resilient Economies Community Program, that go backwards. And so the reason we have their Human Resources Assistance is because we wrote a proposal to that program and we're accepted into it. They're going to leave us after the third meeting. I've been saying the whole time, just please don't leave us, we really need someone to keep this going. And we're trying to consider how to plan, but in between, how to keep volunteers motivated. At our second meeting, we had a higher turnout, it was virtual as opposed to the in-person first meeting. And that was really encouraging for me to see other people feel comfortable showing up because they had bringing the stronger skill sets. And that's really, when you have someone at the top who's able to manage that, you get those stronger skill sets. So yes, that is how VCRD got involved, and we really appreciate their help right now, but they're leaving us soon. I guess I would say don't close the door on the other town. You may have somebody that is on a select board or is in a leadership role in that town that this is a passion for, that might take that on and thrive. But I would also say when you look at a place and where this type of effort ought to be located, look at their capacity because we're at max right now for the town to end up. And I don't know that we could take this on any staff person and head it up right now. I don't think that means we aren't interested or we don't want to have some level of participation in it. I don't know what that level is, and I don't know who would do it. But I do think you should consider all the towns and see, because you may have somebody out there right now that's just very passionate about it that would take it on from Chelsea maybe or from wherever. I don't think it has to have a structure that has a town manager. I think that's a good comment, I appreciate it too. Is somebody from T-Work participating in the third meeting? Yes. We're working with Harry. They sent us Harry, Falconer, the Merck guy. And the other two, Kevin and Peter are in the loop, but they have not shown up to the meetings. I just think that seems like the easiest path to follow is to maybe ask them to put a proposal together based on the previous one that Steven ran and some kind of numbers for the multi-town. I'd be curious to know to that how much did Woodstock, how did they decide who paid what to contribute to that effort was it based on population? It's a little bit difficult for me to understand because there's two ways that I heard. One, they divided the hours by town. So there's like a total of 500 hours and he worked like 20 hours at one town. And the other way that I heard was by per capita. So you have 500 in Pittsfield, 4,000 in Randolph. You're not going to be paying the same. But I'm not 100% sure on that and that's another thing. At the third meeting, these are all things that we're going to be fleshing out. So these are great comments and right on track with what we're asking to. It just seems like the role models there, the structures there, the T-work capacity is there, where it surely isn't here. And it just seems like since it's already there to try and maybe emulate that model. Do you know what you talked to the current IREC coordinator? We have Luke and Jeff Grout too. And he's, you know, Laura contacts him as needed. Kind of know him. I'd be reaching out to Calmer's and ask them if they're going to give you a grant to cover it again too. How long is that good for? What's your phase off process? They might pay for it for the first three years and then you've got to have a plan of what you're going to do after that. That would be amazing if they would help. I'm just saying that lots of times they only give you seed money. Oh right, yeah, then to get it going. Yeah, so it's something to keep in mind again. Also why I kind of rushed here after the second meeting when I saw it going that way is that there could be a budget request coming up. You know, we might be coming back and saying we have the specific job description laid out. We have the formula for how each town is going to contribute and then we'll lay it before the budget committee. So I guess one of my questions for you tonight is if we were to do a budget request, if this does turn into that, when do you need that by? Sooner's better than later. I want to start the process earlier this year. I'd be the intake, I'll probably be in the driver's seat for that again and then it runs through sort of a budget committee and then comes to the board sort of as just the general flow. So in Bethel it's October 16th. That would be awesome. We don't have a preset schedule yet, but we'd like to be substantially through a first draft by Hal and Lee, essentially. Yeah, so we're pretty much going for October with this. And it's, you know, something I want to mention but don't want to rally everyone too much is I really don't think we should have to tax people who live in a below the median income. Full 10 towns, all of us are that poor. I don't think we should even have to raise our own taxes. I think we should find state funding for this. Like this is the plan that we as voters asked for and we need. I wish the tax lady was still here. But you know, I would really look to see this if we can push, use our voices right now, leverage this moment because we have VCRD's attention, T-Work's attention, vital communities. So we don't have capacity in Bethel either. And we need to say this as loud as we can to get the help we need. And that's a big part of what this project is about for me personally growing up here. So let's leverage it. When is your third meeting? It's coming up in September. I can add you to our email list. We're going to do an online poll, but it's to get the exact date. But we're circling around like the first week. But it sounds like Larry Sackowitz is probably in that loop already. He's in the loop. Yeah. I mean, you know, not everyone who's in the loop is like, we're very not at all the time. So the more people in the loop and are informed, I think in this case, because it's a very short project, that's appropriate. It's not like we're doing like a steer-in committee recruitment. I was just thinking in terms of when our September meeting would be and whether you might be able to come back to that with a progress report. Probably possible. Yeah. You're the second Thursday here? It's the 14th of September. 14th of September. We should probably meet before that. I don't want to promise anything like that. Right. I just, pretty likely. It just seems like it's a work in progress. And maybe by then they'll be a little bit more. Yes. Meet on the bones of this. Of the job description piece. Yeah. Definitely. And whatever comes out is going to be, it's going to depend on what goes in. So definitely inviting people to put their input in now rather than waiting for that last bit when we're all trying to like rush. Because again, after that third meeting, we're losing Laura. We're not going to have her. So just get it all in while we have that human resource to help with the process. So kind of questions for you. Yeah. Just be thinking about specific tasks or responsibilities. Any other organizations that maybe we should connect with that would benefit from this. Randolph isn't quite my playground anymore. So, you know, the energy committee isn't really doing outreach for us for this. Do you have budget requests without that? Are you in touch with RACDC? Because they have some stuff in the work store too. And they may also be another source of posting and employee and all that stuff like that. I don't know about that. Well. Well. They're like another contact at least. It sounds like they're... I think they're interesting. Yeah. I mean, they're doing a fair amount of work on energy issues with their own properties, including new developments and putting in a micro grid in their most substantive development that's going to be happening over the next three to five years. That's drawn national attention because it's become kind of like a pilot project or a template for what other affordable housing developers can do. And agencies can do nationwide in terms of micro grid technology. So there is some interrelationship there. Yeah. I don't think they have the capacity to house this position. And it's really a little bit out of their purview. Yeah. Yeah. So that's definitely a good one. And they were kind of on my mind too, but I wasn't sure if they'd be a good fit. So it's not for posting a position just in general to be looked in. So it's good to get that feedback. Do you know if you have taken advantage of the Merck mini grant for community capacity? The smaller $4,000 grant? We are in the mix for that. And then some staff are going to be one day on that grant. Oh, nice. What are you doing for it? I think that's, there were sort of two options. One was to return to some of those energy analysis type questions. We've had particularly for building type channeler. And the other one was more specific to pool pumps. Oh, right. Nice. And deserves. Very big energy hog and not a very exciting project. But there are better options out there. Those are the two that have come up so far? So who's leading that? It's not Susan, because she said she's kind of set that. No, no, it's all in terms. Mark Resolvo has been in the primary. And then REC staff is going to sit in on that for the pool pump conversation. So it's the economic director and the REC. Yeah, REC for the pool piece, yeah. That's exciting. And that really shows how you can kind of have different ways to boost capacity even without the energy committee. And are you interested or have you done greenhouse gas data collection? Do you know what your annual carbon footprint is? Okay. Good to know. If we were to go the way of the energy coordinator, that's probably going to be one of their first, you know, any scientist what's happening now. Okay. So that's good to know. And those are my questions for you. Are there any other questions for me? I always connect you if you think of one later, too. Great. So kind of tentatively come back in September with an update. Zoom will be working. You've got to work, yeah. It's going to reset everything. It was the solar flares when the Earth was facing the sun. That's my theory. They've been very bad in the last few days. Actually, there's supposed to be a potential for northern lights for the next two nights. After midnight? Yeah. We'll still be here. We'll still be here. We'll be seeing visions of our own creation by then. Tom, do you want to be on the list, the email list? I would like to, but I'm just over-committed. I hear you. Don't do it if you're over-committed. Let Larry do it. He's almost done it. People tend to say yes to things, and I'm like, why did I do that? Plus, I'm on the RACDC board, which is why I know some of what they're involved with now. And we've got a lot on our plate there as well in the coming months, so I need to respectfully decline. OK, good to know. I will not email you. But, Ken, I'll be sending you. But I'm interested. So Ken, you're in. Can you do questions? Thank you very much. Next up is updates from the July heavy rains, as they've been called, but it's late. So we're calling it July heavy rains. Well, except they went into August. So I don't know why we call them July, but. So we'll probably just keep this as an agenda item for a while here, especially if we move from response and immediate rebuild into some of the reimbursement, some of the other larger questions that are out there. I think the temporary bridge, if not fully installed today, was pretty close. I think they got through the last pieces. We had a chance to talk with John at the end of the day. They did. That was there before I came here. Yeah. And then Braleigh Road was reopened. I think late last week we were able to reestablish the road piece. There was no bridge damage there. Rented some equipment just to come around a long way through some fields. To bring material and equipment in. And so that's at least reopened. So that reopens all of those pieces. There's still some of that limited traffic issue. With North Randall Road as we await. One of the things we're going to need is for some sort of analysis of that half a mile or so of slope, where there's been some destabilization. So we can figure out what the best options are. Long term for that. That was North Randall Road. So that's a piece that will extend into the coming months. We filed our PRA, our public request. I forget exactly what the acronym is. It's a necessary thing. You've got to file to get to the FEMA queue. And so we did that. And that kicks off the process of getting somebody assigned to us from FEMA. I don't know if anybody had any contact with anybody. Reach out to say that it's them yet. But that at least is in the works. And so it puts us in that queue. They certainly have their hands full with the scope and scale of the disaster statewide. FEMA advised that it would be two to three weeks before they assigned the project manager for us. So that puts us probably closer to September to the system around Labor Day, in this case. We have brought in some extra capacity to help us get coordinated and organized. We've used some internal capacity. So the whole idea is to get us in as good a spot as possible before we have to start to file for reimbursement on those pieces. And I think we're in pretty good shape. There's some edges we'll have to round out and some things we'll have to add. But everything's pretty good. The road damage was out in East Valley, which we've covered before. So if you looked at Route 14 on a map and just kind of went up the sides on either end, you'll find most of it. All the way to Wayne Street and all the way down the East. That's where it seemed to have the most impact. And we still find smaller issues that we've had to address or, you know, sides of roads have washed down under mine finally given way. So there were some of those smaller things we had to address to be mindful of. So we have one road that's Federal Highway that disaster report is completed. The work is completed on it. So we shouldn't have to go into any further with that. They'll catch the paperwork up and clear that one. The rest of it's all FEMA. The temporary bridge is the state bridge and Randolphsy only town that was approved to have our own crew install it. That's a huge testament to John. But we do have the smiths here with some concerns about the North Randolph Road and the filaments on the geologist and the mess we're going to get into with FEMA on that. Very valid concerns that the last time FEMA tried to close the road on us. It took us three years to push back and finally get it so we could armor that one bank. This time it's both banks, both sides of the river. So if you haven't been over there, the bank on the farthest side of the river let go. That's what pushed the water over, undermined the road down through there this time. Even where we had armored it, it pushed down further up the hill and it undermined that and then got behind the rock that we put in. But this time it goes from above the intersection of Rogers Road and it comes all the way down almost to the bottom where it meets 14. So the guardrails, the last guardrails there, actually I was out there looking at it and the roads all cracked on the roadside of guardrails. So there's not much holding those guardrails right now. So we believe though that we can still keep a width on Rogers Road to leave that open to two-way traffic. But the low Rogers Road to Kibbey Road is going to have to be one way. Temporarily or? Until we can have the FEMA again. That was three years last time. Keep yous, keep access, keep them worried. Right, right. Keep it in use while the FEMA conversations. Yeah, so the concern was pretty valid that we not narrow it up because they got to get farm equipment through there. Sure. But it also creates a hardship there in that if they can go up from the farm to their fields that are above they can't come back down. It'll be one way up because of the fire department coverage area. So... but they don't even have... there's no access over to Kibbey Road to come back down that way. There's no nothing. So, you know, what I was talking about is when you're coming back down put somebody at the bottom, hold up traffic while you bring your equipment back down. But granted, it's kind of a... it's a pain. But at least we're going to be able to have the road open. I don't... I can't think of another way to get you back down through there. I've been sitting here playing the area through my head and haven't got there. Done? The road to 14 going to be two-way traffic. Yes. Yep. The road is four... or the bridge is 14 and a half feet wide. So you can't meet anybody on the bridge but you can clearly see that somebody's on the other side of it. Right, right. You know, there'll be a signage saying it's a narrow bridge. And I guess if you're a daredevil you could... Down on which corner? Below the bridge. You know where the blocks are? Yep. You said it's on their mind there? Right. Looking at that in the morning to determine there's a question about whether the town staff can do that or if we're going to need somebody to come in and anything we do there is going to be temporary. There's going to need a lot of bigger fix. It's pretty... It's pretty interesting when you go down through there. It's not pretty. The one little landslide that happened the other day on the opposite side by that retaining wall that got cleaned up pretty quick. That was easy. A couple scoops and dirt, but... What are they going to do about it? Why do they put the new bridge in where I allowed it to slide down and it's just sitting in the brook? Isn't that beautiful? Are they going to have to clean that out? You got to get permission. The logs in the brook for the fish. That weren't there before. I know. You're talking about the slide that just happened the other night? Yeah. We're looking at that being evaluated today actually by John on what we can do. If you haven't been reached out to yet, you will. They're looking for damage assessments from the storm the other night. That will be part of it. Yeah. To see if they're going to... If they declare an emergency, we'll have the same period of time where we can go in and clean it up. But they haven't declared it yet, so we can't quite get the equipment in there yet. We have another storm in all of that brook with little bridges. Yep. It's not an if, it's a win. Yep. And that bridge will have to go through a hydraulic analysis and all that to determine what ends up in there. Yeah. My guess is they're going to probably see a much bigger structure in there. Is there a way the storm is going to be on this temporary bridge? My understanding is there is, but it's not bad. Shoot. I heard it too. A fire truck. Easy. A lot of your big trucks go up that north ramp. I know they do. I know. They might not be able to. They'll be quieter on the road. Some of that we've got to work out too. Like what we're going to be able to put through there. My worst problem is going to be getting back down to the farming. We've got to get up and down that road. We can't go all the way around. Unfortunately, we don't have the whip there right now. And we can't put it. What about the whip from the road down below? We can't meet a bicycle on that other road. Yep. That one's a class four, right? And north ramp is a class three. It's different standards that we have to I feel it. I got it. It's still between a car and a road up there even where it's bad. It's funny the whip. You can still put up a barricade and meet a car where it's bad on the other road. The barricades will evaluate where it's safe to put the barricade and then the rest of it there if you can get two cars in there but I'm afraid if you've got a piece of equipment that's 10, 12 feet wide that car whip isn't there. But there's enough visibility there so that you can see you can make accommodations for meeting somebody just wait for somebody to go through or whatever. It's going to be closed from the Rogers Road all the way down to Kibbey Road so you won't have visual so in following what we're going to have to do under the guidelines we're going to have to close it and put it to one way what you do I'll hear it from my house but I may not see it that way. Don't ask no tell. How often do you have to go up and down that stretch? Excuse me? How often do you up and down? I bet some days it's 10, 15 times. Several times a day. Yeah. I have to hold my mower, my tether, my rake, my baler, and you know I will try it. You're up and down. Even life springs they draw all their feet up and down that road up in there so they're going to have it. They're going to have to change their route. Oh it's not a good scene. I totally agree with you. It's not a good scene. Our hands are tied. See in the 70's when I sold on the land for this road originally I sold the town 580 when they put the road up where it is and they got more land on the right hand side going up than what they used because they purchased more land because they said anything ever happened they wanted to go that other way more and steep their coffee. Yeah. And that's an option. We can go over and we've got retaining walls there too. I would donate whatever land they needed if they wanted to do anything for us in the city. We're going to do anything more because it's no value to me for the land it's there. Nice, thank you. Unfortunately as we talked about there will be studies there will be all kinds of good stuff we'll have to do to get through it and get what the option is and move it. Who will? When is the long way We're hoping the bridge itself will be open I think Monday. Monday is the target so hopefully that end of the road will be open Monday and then the one way we'll go in. So do all your hand this weekend while it's raining. You can't be going up through there that much this year, Jerry. Nobody else can. But if you see more slides or whatever, love some too and you're going to see them I was there tonight and I took a video where on the lower part I walked out on the roadside on the bank on the other side the water is running right out of the middle of the bank and that's what gives you your landslides so we're going to lose more on the other side too it's just crazy. Do we have any other flood updates? Not that I've got. More. So Tom didn't ask to be on the agenda but he left so he had to go. Yeah. He left out. Thank you. Great. Next up is consider accepting interlibrary loan courier grant Kimba Library This is the annual grant that we do every year. Amy's here, she hung tough with you. Do we have any questions? Do we have any questions on that one? I do not have anything. Is that a motion that hurts? Are you going to make it? A motion to second. Yep. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Consider awarding a paving bid. We ended up with two responses. Oh, the bridge will be weighted at 90,000 pounds. Oh. Yeah, that would be good. Sorry. We had two respondents to our paving bid. We've got a breakdown in your packets. It shows you the cost by bid or end by road. So we are proposing to pave and I think it works out to I'm going to say in the report how many linear feet are we trying to do this year. So this will bring us up to 32,000 linear feet over a two-year span. So we're trying to pave an average of 1.82 miles per year to get treatment on everything within a 15-year period. So we've got to do that many of this. We're averaging 2.02. We're just over that where it's going to get tricky when you're projecting to the out years if we don't find a way to boost those transfers. But the two options we have in here, Springfield Paving and Blacktop, came in at about $348,000. Blacktop came in at about $387,000. When you look at the bids, you can see that the price for Asphalt is lower in the Blacktop bid. The difference comes in with the tonnage which is lower in the Springfield Paving bid. Springfield Paving, if you remember, did the Weston section of school Fish Hill Road Paving project to the summer of 2021. Summer Fall. We're about on the same schedule this year. We have an end date of October 20th. This is a little bit later than we'd like to be. Some of that is because we waited on a Class 2 Paving grant award notice that came into June. So we had to readjust our plan a little bit. That grant would have enabled us to do all of these Bethel Road. So instead we had to take the segments we thought would fit within sort of our Paving footprint and still address some of the areas most in need. So there's two sections on East Bay up to South Brandolph Road and that one's a longer stretch. There's a pavement scene that heads on down to the intersection with Crocker. The rest of the Paving is down here in the village area. Most of what's proposed will actually finish off for the most part finish off from Weston sort of over to the river and back up there. Brooks will have a section knocked off. At some point we have to go and look at St. Dudley and some of the other smaller things that may still be hanging out. But that will get going on this side of town. And we're also going to do Heart Brace which has been it's in rough shape and it was very much a need based pick. Not to say that there aren't others and that we'll try to finish up. Do we have any means of determining if the difference in the asphalt tonnage is related to I don't want to say quality but to maybe more asphalt is needed than Springfield things. I don't know. I'm not a by any means. For the most part they're not terribly far off on the tonnage. It's just when you add that sort of $5 or so per ton up across the number of tons. It's between 70 tons and 80 tons for Woodsey for example. And so they generally tend to be off by a smallish factor that compounds over the course of those things. And these include the bond prices that are in there too so that's a small component of it. We have sufficient funds in the paving reserve to pay for these once the transfer comes in and we look ahead to at least fiscal year 25 we should be able to stay on the plan that we're developing. When you get much beyond that if you don't sort of introduce some other revenues we don't do well. We'll help from a grant program. We'll have to move some stuff around. So we have a history with Springfield but not that black top. Is that accurate? We haven't paid the black tops since I've been here. I don't know if they've paved prior to that. I've encountered them for smaller jobs I think. Just my coincidence. We had really good results with Springfield. We were very pleased with the paving job we got two years ago. That's great. Yep. They have both indicated they can need to timeline. And so these bids also they're all in cost. When we talk about East Bethel Road there's shoulder gravel, centerline painting, those things are a part of that as well. We like to break out the asphalt cost per ton because when we put our plans together we try to push the key metric in there. This is much more than what we were expecting based on last year's bid prices in terms of what went from about a ton to 100, either 105 or 110. And we're forecasted for at least 5% increases here over the year for that. But yeah, we'll have done roughly it works out to 22% of the road miles once we finish this. We'll have recently surfaced since late summer 2021. So we're on a pretty good pace. Doesn't I think always feel that way to everybody who's driving around. There'll be extra done too because there's some roads that were paved roads that had flood damage. That'll all get patched in also. So we'll actually have more then. Yeah, some of that will. Much pleasure. I will move approval of the bid from Springfield Paving for the fiscal year 24 paving bid. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Next up is ratifying the purchase of the replacement truck. So teach me to go on vacation. That's the moral of the story I think. Hi, you came back. It was all. Let me leave you a list next time. I went to the beach and came back to the owner of a truck. It's been worse, I told you. Next time I'm going to figure better. I was thinking about going for two weeks but I'm not sure. So we had a truck that was someone who was out on a truck in a truck during the storm event lost control of the vehicle. The vehicle subsequently been totaled and so we had to replace it especially with winter, not super far off. So there were two quotes to replace this truck. We're going with a $5.50 size. So it's a dump body. It's a pretty versatile piece of equipment for us. The price is about $92,000. The equipment reserve does not have that in it. The cost of this truck will be, the replacement will be offset by the insurance proceeds. We're working to schedule the appraiser to come out so that they can, we can start to at least figure out what that dollar amount is. So we will have some amount likely that we'll have to figure out how to fund once that's in. The idea is to there is more than sufficient funds in the gravel road reserve especially when we look at all of the projects and projects that might happen. We could still fund a couple of them and not come close to needing the $40,000 or $50,000 or so that may be left unfunded. So that would be temporary source and we would repay ourselves either with the capital transfer for this fiscal year and then sort of reduce the amount that we start with in the highway equipment reserve and or we would do it in fiscal year 25 just to provide a little more breeding for the equipment reserve. Part of the reason why the equipment reserve is as low as it is is because we have been on a pretty aggressive replacement plan for trucks and equipment over the last few years and we had a very aging old unreliable fleet of all kinds of stuff. So we've been able to get quite a bit of that replaced throughout that time. And so this sort of unexpected one that has a partial funding source is the one that's going to sit to figure out. So we can figure that out. That's the way we'll do that and then we'll repay that reserve so that's all there when we do want to take on a more substantial project which wouldn't be until fiscal 25 or later anyway. And like I said, there's enough that if we wanted to be really aggressive with the project we could do that. So I motion to ratify the purchase of the replacement truck for the highway department. I will suck into that. All those in favor? Aye. Opposition carries. North Wales and reservoir project update. We've been assigned an EPA contact for our congressional airmark. We've come as a grant from the EPA. So that's $775,000. So that's good. We're getting closer to locking that all the way up. We are still working to get the loan documents for the major funding source from the state. They're very much backed up on their end. So we're a couple months past due for that but because we did the interim financing we're more than safe to proceed our schedule. We're currently on base and we need to meet the items that are still variable are the long lead time ones. That's the tank and the generator which we have sort of in the next construction season anyway. And we expect those to be picked a color for the well house walk the other day. That was very exciting. It is either gray or brown. I can't quite tell. Looks like cement with some shiny pieces in it. Had other people look at it and they said that looks great. Okay, I'm sold. So that building actually will be up soon. They're connecting some of the wells and I saw the new wells back over. Some of those trenching pieces. It seems to be going as we expected to at this point. Engineers and contractors are all playing nice in the sandbox but it's just good when the project has that. So that's just a quick update knowing that we're getting close to my bedtime. Next up is the manager's report. Yeah. The only question I had for you is we're still holding the check for the Chamber of Commerce for the July 4th events. Do you want us to hang on to that a little bit longer? I don't want to go but I just don't want to send it to you and not dare yet. What's the issue with this? They didn't follow through with some of the things that they said they were going to. It's such a traffic control and funny volunteers and other things like that that were an issue. This was for the parade? It goes for the parade, yes. I've been doing it for so many years you would think of. Snap! There's new people involved in certain things but in circumstances of course something that was really easy in the past was having police coverage and it wasn't easy this year. But I kind of drafted up we were supposed to have a meeting that got cancelled the day before with the board of directors and Trevor and Scott to have that conversation and they cancelled it. So I would like to see kind of a calendar of events like what it does in January with the permane and kind of show different progress and stuff throughout the year before we hit, like the week before or the night before. What we wanted to see was what they actually did that they think was worth $2,500. Sure, yeah also. So the check is for $2,610 it's got the $110 membership I think it's $2,500 for the $1,000. Yeah. Maybe we can send on e-mail and maybe ask for just like Linda and maybe a few of the board members to meet. If you'd like to. Who else would like to come to that party? Can you give us a quick update on the status of the police services committee that one of you or either anyone twice. Yeah, presented data at the last meeting from the police department and the state police. Kind of went over what that data was and what was in it how statistics are captured conversation about process going forward what we want to do timeline how we're going to get there budget review. To sort of three phases I think there's sort of the mechanical getting everyone kind of grouted and ready sort of phase there's the I'm going to go out on a little bit of a lender because I'm not on the committee but I think it would be the committee to have a discussion at its next meeting about making its deliberations within the committee instead of in the pages of front porch forum. I was a little disappointed by the dialogue that went on there last week because when I voted to approve people to be on the committee I was with the understanding with the hope and expectation that they might come in with an open mind and not an agenda and that doesn't seem to be the case so I hope that if I think having there was a suggestion that Joe made about having a public forum well that's what this that's what this committee is supposed to be so why not have a discussion there and not in the pages of front porch forum where it just gets contentious and it descends into name calling and it's just I don't think it's helpful on either part no matter what side of the issue you're on it's just not helpful so I just want to go on record this same we need a deliberative session for the regulates like work you don't have to have one I was going to update you on a few things but if we need that we should and we'll go right into the other one yeah we have to find or is this one that we don't have to find I haven't written up as the two I don't believe you have to because of the two topics there but it doesn't hurt to do the finding kind of minimum of nature we're postponing it right I mean we're going to do both yeah I think the one might be a little bit quick the deliberative session first or the executive session we'll do both the executive and the deliberative right but which are we going to the two separate motions we have the dog one we already made the motion to go in after all this so what we now it's to find that we need to go into executive session and then go into executive session so when you exit out you're in public and there's no action at all not for the executive sessions okay I motion that the executive session is necessary and prudent in that premature general public knowledge would place the town of the disadvantage I will second that all those in favor and then do the second thing to consider a motion to enter oh so I would like to motion to enter executive session pursuing I don't like all these two one BSA squiggly line is that what it is I just give it I go right to the 313 section 313A1E pending or probable litigation in the one BSA is it section 313A3 appointment evaluation of public official second I was just getting really wrapped up with all those numbers it's very hypnotic motion carries tonight