 Good afternoon. This is Tuesday, February 12th and you are watching the Vermont House Human Services Committee and our testimony. This afternoon is about residential treatment for justice involved youth in particularly the movement that the state is taking towards the new program. So, thank you very much and commissioner, I will ask you to start off and I, we have. Several people from the Department of Children and Families and I would ask you to be the conductor of who is going when and to let us know if you want us to interrupt you or you'd like folks to get a chance to talk first. Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we introduced Erica Radke at the start and also Jennifer Herber also with us today is Jennifer Micah, our general counsel for the department she started in September. And then also Judy Rex, who's our director of policy. And the team with you today has been very involved in the work and the development of the new cover bridges treatment program as we're now calling it and working with Beckett. We provided when we were to testify at the end of last week, we provided three documents to the committee. And it was a high level PowerPoint just kind of level set of how we got to where we are given you do have some new committee members. Also, a draft description of the treatment program that's being developed in conjunction with their buckets team but also with Jennifer Herber. And also some schematics of what the final drawings are looking like for the new treatment center. And so I could start with the overview and then I would probably hand it off to the team to kind of talk about the different components I was hoping that you know given this is the human services committee you'd want to focus on the treatment program aspect to some degree today and that's why we have Jennifer here because she's very well burst in the program and the new tools that are being developed to assess and work with the youth. Thank you appreciate that. Can, can you do the document share or do you need. I think I would need Julie I'm working from home on a very small laptop today and I'm, I would say I'm all I would be technically challenged to talk and work both at the same time. Okay, she's. She's got it. And just for people who are listening these documents are on our committee webpage or under today's date, which is February 12. So just jumping to the next slide of the presentation. This is just some background for the committee to refresh remembering for the new members. The last youth left Woodside at the end of August and no and we decision was made not to allow any further admissions to the facility. I'm at that point we sought legislative authority to close the facility working with the legislature, the restatement budget included language authorizing us to permanently close the facility on before October 18. We permanently closed the facility on October 7. So as of right now the facility is closed and it's been in some ways decommissioned and all of the equipment and records have been moved out and whatnot and so it's sitting idle and empty on on that space over in Also, we were asked to submit a report to the legislature on our long term plan for justice involved youth. And we did so on October 20, and then presented that to the legislature. Julie if we could move to the next slide. That plan was considered by the legislative joint legislative justice oversight and child protection oversight committees. We had several hours and days of testimony on the plan and hearing from various state's attorneys association defender general BSE a judge Greerson and others coming in on the plan. And on November 12, those committees voted to a to recommend approval of our plan with the following conditions that we work with local government or Newberry and hold community meetings regarding the use of the facility. That all juvenile and the state's custody shall reside and receive treatment in the least restricted setting. That only justice involved youth be at the facility and that it have a known eject no reject policy that a person with PhD level clinical experience will have oversight of the facility and the programming at the facility. And that negotiating the lease will ensure the state's financial investment in the facility be recaptured if the plan for the facility falls through. And so that recommendation then went according to the budget language to the joint fiscal committee who met on November 20 and voted to approve the plan with the five recommendations that were submitted by the joint justice and child protection oversight committees. And then we submitted an update report in an early January about the status of the Woodside appropriations and that's kind of led us to where we are right now in the work we've been doing over the last several months working with Beckett and the architects on the proposed renovations and also the proposed treatment plan for the youth in that facility. So the partners we've been working with our team at DCF many of them who are here and there are others. We've been very involved with buildings in general services who have been very helpful in helping us draft a proposed lease. We're also working with us and the architects and Beckett on the proposed design and understanding, you know, the flow of buildings and from their experience, their contribution has been invaluable. But we are working with an architectural firm and White River Junction called Studio Nexus. And also, we've been working with our consultants from the Council of Juvenile Justice administrators, as we, you know, work to do the design and the programming piece to move this forward. You know, Beckett has been engaging, you know, the Newberry select board and the development review board and the zoning board. And then we also were planning for a community forum. We had our first last night. And then we there's another one scheduled for, I believe it's March 4th. So, yeah, I was going to say, I think it was a well attended virtual meeting so it was a different format and who did the select board. They actually had a moderator someone come in and moderate the meeting and, and that went really well. So we had our team there the Beckett team was there and the architects were there kind of went over the proposed treatment plan and the renovations to the building and the site plan. And then we heard from community members were each given three minutes to ask questions or make statements and then we responded to the questions. I would say it was a very productive meeting. And I would say that we heard what we would think were very appropriate concerns regarding a secure residential treatment facility in their community there was a lot of questions about the types of youth that we would have there. How secure is the building going to be there, express concerns at Newberry is about a half hour away from different law enforcement responses. And they were particularly concerned about, you know what happens if a youth eloped from the facility, and we particularly heard some concerns regarding residents who live on a road. Fish pond road, who live on the way to the facility this facility is on its own private road about a half a mile up I give or take a little bit on a pretty large parcel but there were residents on fish pond road who who are expressed some particular concern about safety issues and so we're going to follow up with those residents directly and work with them and hear their concerns I think we want to work with the community particularly around security and what we can do to assure the community and the residents of on that road in particular that we want to be responsive to their concerns. And that, you know, there are many ways that we can do that and we're open to working with them to give them the level of reassurance they needed for this project to move forward in their community. There was some concerns expressed just regarding, you know, who was going to own the facility. And did that mean that the property would be removed from their tax rolls. You know we are working on a lease so it'll be back back at owned and they'll be paying property taxes, although we will have an option to purchase the property at some point if the state so chooses that this time it's, it's, it's not a moving forward with a purchase but a lease. And then I would turn to Jennifer who's there if I missed anything Jennifer real quick in terms of what we heard last night at the meeting. And just I'm Jennifer just maybe after that I see that representative McFawn has a question and so is that, can you wait till we've, or can we wait till Jennifer finishes the questions and concerns. Absolutely. Overall, I think the feedback and the questions and concerns that we received last night are only going to help in creating a well rounded program for the community the youth and staff moving forward they were they were really good questions. And some of the questions have been part of the conversation as of lately about transportation and access to services to support a program that is serving a difficult group of youth. And I think, like Sean said our next meeting this March 4 so overall it was good. And I'll be happy to share with you a little bit about the covered bridge treatment center if we could just go to the next. Jennifer before we go there. I believe that represent McFawn has a question that is probably related to this point that you and the commissioner talking about representative McFawn. Thank you madam chair. If if this has been talked about before just say so. What kind of a facility did Beckett have prior to this renovation. So, the renovations haven't occurred there at this point just schematics designs and proposed before that they were using the facility to serve 8 to 12. And it was a facility at that point it was not a building secure facility. Okay, sorry thank you. Okay, who's ever next. That would be me. And I'm going to I can give a brief overview of the program development and the process and then I'm happy to go further into any areas where people may have questions. It's been thus far a very collaborative process we've had experts in areas of juvenile justice reform with the C JJ a the Council of juvenile justice administrators. I have a question with Dr. Lorraine Baker and Jeff care and who who have developed the program description and working with disability rights for month and taking their input and feedback which has been really helpful. And I think having around table discussion and thoughtfulness around how to create a program that kind of thinks across boundaries has been really useful and helpful. In developing a program that's going to be responsive in both the design and the programming to the level of acute needs that these youth will come in presenting with. And so the program is utilizes evidence based modalities and is trauma informed from the time that the youth arrives and all the way through the program. So trauma informed in an organizational framework way in the response to staff and management. And there's a real understanding of adolescent development that's that's interwoven into the programs approach. And I think part of what's really important with this group of youth is promoting healing through connection back into the community and that also begins at intake and is consistent. We thread throughout the program. There's a strong permanency component or there a plan is developed and there's permanency coordinators that are integrated into the milieu and develop relationships with the youth and serve as a liaison to them. Moving on to their next steps and a strong family engagement piece. So initially the family right away is is engaged to develop both the personal safety plan and the treatment plan and really work with the youth and the staff to develop a comprehensive approach to next steps. I think it also does a really nice job of taking a framework that is trauma informed on an organizational level as well, which is really important because I think in this type of work it can be so demanding and having adequate support is so important. And there's training and ongoing wellness planning for staff that's built into the program design. And then there will be quality assurance and oversight that is also trauma informed, which is also important in recognizing, you know, these, these systems are under chronic stress and there can be changes that go on and so recognizing early signs of if staff need a reset or things that might need to change in terms of policy and procedure is really important. And so overall it's been, I think we've taken we've drawn on best practices from the field in both juvenile justice reform and design and program, and then also best practice in terms of trauma and adolescent development and put it together to create what is a pretty thorough comprehensive approach to the stabilization program for these youth. If anyone has any questions, you're muted. Good. I interrupted you and yes I do see representative Wood has a question. Thank you, Madam Chair. Jennifer, thanks for this overview. I'm curious on the program evaluation and oversight in the QA functions. So, when you outline this, I probably should be more aware of what DCF has in this regard with regard to sort of all of the residential programs that you contract for but is there a team at DCF that that does site visits. Are you reliant only on licensing? How is that going to happen? Well, that's actually part of this role and position is I will be overseeing that and working collaboratively with RLSI and the FSD division and Jennifer, lots of initials. Residential licensing and special investigations, which is a unit within the division of family services that oversees the residential programming. So I'll be working in collaboration with them quite a bit, but in my role I will be providing a level of clinical oversight to the programming and the placement process of youth throughout our system of care. Yeah. And Sean might have something to add to that. I was going to say, special investigations that really is I want to say abuse if I'm, please, rather than my saying what I think it is, would you explain what, what that is and how that relates to representative Wood's question. Sure, I could jump in here. Thank you. So that unit has a couple of different functions. So one, any residential program that wants to operate in Vermont needs to be licensed by that will serve youth. It will needs to be licensed by the family services by this by the Department of Children and Families in this unit is the licensing body. You know, there's a series of regulations that programs and rules that programs need to meet. And this team goes in and works with the provider on to make sure their program meets all of those requirements before they receive a license. They also do periodic reviews and assessments of the program to see how they're doing, but also a specific concerns are brought to our attention and way a youth, you know, like a youth might have been treated improperly. They have investigators that will go out and look specifically into that concern and meet with the youth or the youth family also interview program staff and make and make a determination where you might have seen some of their most recent work was within the early in my tenure. So it was in the news a little bit regarding current hat and and that they had been working with current hat and over some out some allegations and investigations and current hat and decided, you know, that we could that they would stop being a license treatment program based on our findings and work with them. And so that's kind of the work of that unit. And the little separate from our other pieces of the department that investigate specific allocations of abuse and neglect out in the community. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think what what I am and I hear what you're saying it sounds like, you know, a licensing kind of review and licenses last for how long, how long is periodic. I wouldn't have to refer to our licensing team and get back I think they can vary. Okay. So that would be helpful and I understand the sort of the investigatory aspect of it. So that's usually complaint driven investigations usually are complaint driven, you know when something rises to that level. I guess when I am interested in this maybe sounds more a little bit along what Jennifer was talking about is if there's any regular whether it's an annual quality assurance review or you know, twice a year or once every other year, something that is different from licensing, you know, the, you know, that really looks at qualitatively, how are we doing and how are the outcomes for the youth who are there, and really honestly try to address things that might become apparent during that type of review before it gets to a place where, you know, you have somebody alleging abuse or something like that. So it's really before that level of investigation and so I'm just I'm just curious as to how you approach that from, you know, a quality improvement perspective. Yeah, so, you know, the licensing team does do periodic reviews of the programs and I would have them come in if you wanted more details, just to make sure, you know, that they're still in compliance with their licensing conditions and that we're not seeing areas of concern like you like you testified to, and then if they do identify an area, depending on the level of the concern there's different paths that can take in terms of working for the program to come back into compliance per se or whatever the concern we we issued. In terms of I think of youth outcomes I think is the other component of your question representative would. I think that's what led us to create the new clinical position in the commissioner's office for that qualitative piece like how are our kids doing. Are they, you know, are they are the programs that we're using meeting their needs how long are they staying. How quickly do they step down to a lower level of services how quickly are we getting them back into the community. Those I think are the work that we really see this new clinical services director, doing as a part of the body of that work of that new position because I think that's a piece that you know we've been missing. And, you know, I think it happened in bits and pieces at times but there was not a consistent focus on it in the department, and that led us to kind of think that this would be a role for this new position that Jennifer's now taken on for the department. Yeah, I'm just, it would help it would help. If you know you might maybe follow up with sort of the frequency and what periodic means, and really how how Jennifer's role as clinician is going to interface with, you know, the licensing unit that would be helpful. And it looked like Jennifer Micah wanted to say something she's taken herself off. Yes, thank you representative would one of the will be addressing a lot of these issues within the context of the contract that we have with Beckett will be having requirements around whether there were any seclusions whether there were any accidents all, you know, quality assurance issues around that will be within the context of that contract so we are and we're working on those things. Now, but we haven't, because we've been focusing so much on how to build the bill, we haven't gotten into the nitty gritty of that yet, but we see a lot of that being part of requirements of running the program. Thank you, I appreciate actually the fact that you're thinking about those things as part of the contract. And then the important part will, you know, adherence to the contract and making sure that that's happening so thank you for the follow up. And there is a question from representative McFawn. Well, Madam chair was trying to look for it in the building but I'll ask this question. Medical treatment is, is that going to be staffed in the facility or how close are they to medical treatment. So, I can jump in here so there is a clinical space in the building. It's near word youth when they come in they will go through an assessment. There will be a nurse on site on staff to work with the youth. In terms of nearest facilities. Probably 25 minutes from the hospital in St. John's Berry don't quote me on the time and the distance but and then they're about 45 minutes away from Dartmouth Hitchcock and then they are also closer to, I believe it's cottage hospital in Woodsville. And then also about an hour away to the west in Berlin would be the center of our hospital so they are kind of like in the middle of a healthcare triangle, you know, I don't know all the triangle but So they're quite a ways then from any trauma based place. Okay. Thank you. Commissioner or Jennifer Herbert. So what we are seeing is slide six of seven. I don't know if you were. There's another slide we should see or we should take slides off. Oh, let's just quickly see I think the next slide I believe a few if you move is just kind of an overview of the next steps where we're at just a high level. We're going to walk you through we're finalizing the floor plan and the schematic designs. Also, the site plan, you know, the site plan of the actual site that is going to be on, you know, in terms of like where the parking lot will be relocated to and where the outdoor recreational area will be located for the youth to be able to get outside and exercise. And then we would generate the final construction drawings and specifications for contractors to bid on it. We would be then applying for a local permits from from from the community. Also, we would need there'll be some state building permits regarding like fire and egress and whatnot for a facility like this. Also, you know, we're still in the midst of working with the community and that will that work will happen into and throughout March and working with the community address their concerns and come up with safety response plans and whatnot. And then the project would go out to bid and we're and then with the goal that construction if all the pieces fall into place, begin in May, and we're not at substantially changing the footprint of the of the facility. And so we believe that we hope to be open and operational by the end in December of this year. So, the fact that the next community meeting is March 4. You don't see being perhaps setting this the timing of this back a little bit. It could be based on our work with the community and and their development review boards and zoning boards as well I mean so and that's what I alluded to when I said if there's no other things that intervene in the meantime that this is assuming a smooth process through out. Okay, so, as we begin to look at this, both from a budgetary point of view because I would imagine when we look at the budget. There are that there's enough money to run a program starting in January so for six months. So if in fact, there are delays. That might impact the amount of money that needs to be in the budget for running the program. That fair to say. You know we left flexibility in our budget, understanding that the construction and completion time flying was still was still could be fluid. And part of the current Woodside or secure residential treatment depth ID. And not only would it for 22 would include funds for the operation of this facility but also for the treatment of youth in the interim and the different places. And so based on that time and we believe we have the funds available to meet our needs, but you're right that there could be an impact there. And so for instance, the interim contracts and interim plan to deal with justice involved youth who need a lot. On response. You alluded to. So new new and to, you know, a couple of contracts are those up in December, will they need to be renegotiated. So we, when we negotiated our contract with Sununu and Jennifer, Micah jump in if I if I misspeak please, is a two year contract. Renewable for two years in the way that contract is structured. We only pay for the days that we actually have youth in that facility. And so far I think we've had a youth in that facility late summer into September for four to five weeks at this point. And so we only pay for what we use for that contract some of the other agreements that we have to increase bed capacity and crisis bed capacity would still be in place, and then we would assess whether those would still be needed once this facility opens up and then try to work to downsize them back to the, to the size of the program they were ahead of before we renegotiated their agreement to expand to meet some of the our justice involved youth. Thank you. I have lots of questions commissioner, but you have a plan, you have a plan for I, and this is the first part of the plan in terms of the presentation. So I'm going to let you move on to your next phase unless I see questions from other committee members. And just know that we have some questions. So, so can we take down this slide. Sure. And I was going to ask if Julie could put up that the the PDF of the schematics. And then we would have Jennifer it's been really working closely Jennifer Mike has been working closely with back at the architects and bgs and could kind of walk us through what's what shaping up to be close to the final footprint and schematic of the of the treatment center. This will be really interesting and it will be important I think for us to understand this. I'm just going to remind the committee that we are not the capital committee. And those of us who are interior designers or builders to try to remember our focus. Jennifer Micah do you want to kind of walk us through the work and kind of how you how the team has been approaching the design. Sure. So, like it came to us with back in August, September with this building and the possibility of building putting the facility in here. And the initial walkthrough indicated that the best place, the most affordable place for the for the actual program would be in the basement. The basement, you can see in front of you. The basement is at the top, the, excuse me the bedrooms are at the top of the screen. And those look out onto the mountain side the fields and the forests. That's the one place that we are building out. And that is building out onto an existing concrete patio. So we're not actually changing the footprint we're just basically, you know, enclosing it pertinent to your committee in particular we spent a lot of time thinking about how to design the building so that it would compel appropriate responses from staff. And what we were thinking about was for in the forefront of our minds where the lawsuits that the state is facing regarding Woodside and some of the problems that we had there. Some of the problems that were most important were the segregation of certain of children in areas of the building. So we tried very hard to avoid allowing there to be a space where a child could be left alone for long periods of time alone. And you'll see that there are the building, the bottom is in fact sort of sort of divided. There are the two bedrooms on the far right bedrooms five and six that have the possibility of a closed door separating them. And what we learned from our consultants was that that's actually necessary for trauma informed care. Given that if a particular child is acting out or saying things or doing things that could trigger a trauma response another child you need it to be able to have children be separated for their own benefit. So what we did do is we made sure that none of the bedrooms had their own bath and had their own toilets because then you can't leave a child in the room. The idea was to make sure that children were in and out of the rooms and not just left alone. So you have those on the right. The we're still deciding whether they all need to be whether they all need to be soundproof rooms where haven't settled on that quite yet. We think maybe they don't all have to be but we should have a couple that will all the bathrooms are ADA compliant and accessible. You'll see at the bottom of the screen there's a little square sort of off to the left of the center which says Lula that's a small elevator that will go all the way up from the bottom from the basement all the way up to the third floor which we will not be using other than possibly for staff over staff sleeping rooms if there's a need for that but those will not be used for anything. All the children will be in this area only in the whole building. The operational office is where you'll have computers and that's where staff can be if there are when people are sleeping or that sort of thing you'll see there are windows. The sitting areas are intended not to be used frequently during the day. The idea is that the kids will be in the multi purpose room in the active academic room, or they'll be upstairs having meals upstairs on the second floor you'll see there'll be a couple other rooms that the kids will be using. We have two sort of therapeutic rooms down here, the calming room and the clinical office. This schematic actually has them in the wrong place after talking with. We had a meeting about a week and a half ago with DRBT disability rights Vermont, and we agreed that we should switch those two, and that we would also change some names to make them less clinical for the kids, like a chill zone or something like that to have a space where they could be alone. All of the materials that we'll be using will be, to the greatest extent possible, will be, will look home like. So we're searching a lot to find the kind of wall coverings and flooring that will look like a typical wall, but because of the behaviors of some of the kids we have to make them really sturdy. All the windows are going to be, there won't be any guns, but they are bulletproof, which is an indication simply of strength and not of the need for actual bulletproof class. But that sort of thing you know you've nothing that somebody could punch through or throw something through or poke through both for their own safety and to maintain the integrity of the building. Before we move on to the next slide. Does anybody have any questions. I have a quick question. This is the basement. It's a lovely building. I mean, where it looks, what's going to happen to the first floor. Right, so if we want to go up to the next slide, I could show you the next floor. Okay. We worked on that transition. Representative McFawn has a question. Okay. Do these windows open? That's a good question and I'm not sure of the answer. Jennifer Herbert, do you know? I don't think so. No. At least not on the, not the rooms in the bedrooms. Those won't be able to be opened. This is a security facility. So the idea is we need to make sure that children cannot leave and that they can't have access to things that might cause harm. So if you had an open window, you could potentially reach out, try to grab something. I think. So, so on this first floor, where they're going to be most of the time, none of those windows will be able to be open. Including the multi-purpose room and, et cetera. Correct. Correct. We do have outdoor facilities though. I mean, outdoor. I see that. Now my other question is, I see there are two bathrooms on that floor. And if there were six. People there plus staff. Is that, is that considered adequate? I know that you have a staff bathroom too. So our understanding is that it's, it's adequate. We are working with consultants who are experts in the juvenile justice field who are following best practices around those kinds of decisions. Yeah. Topper, Topper, I see four, I see four bathrooms. I see one, and then the staff one, and then over to the right. It says two. So I count that as four. I thought that was the number of the bathroom, bathroom one, bathroom two. Yeah, there are three, there are just three. Okay. No, what was my last question? Yeah, I forget. I will know that the, the multi-purpose room is, is quite large. See it's 24 by 17 and the other the academic multi-purpose multi-purpose room is also large. So there is a lot of space. Yeah, my, my, I just remembered my last question, the clinical office. I noticed that there are no sinks or bathrooms or anything in there. Right. It's just, it's just a therapy room. It's where you would go to meet with your therapist or. I mean, if you use in any number of youth was injured. Yeah, that's, that's what to represent the phone set of questions around how close you are or for you are and who, who is on staff medical. He's not talking about therapy. So we have a, sure, we have a clip on the, on the first, if we move to the next slide, the first floor, there is a clinical space. There as well where there's an intake here with a nurse and sinks and other equipment. So this would be a medical clinical type. Okay. Yeah, using the same words clinical clinical. Yes. And I think, you know, am I correct representative on that you were concerned about medical, medical physical care. Yes, I'm interested if somebody tries to injure themselves, or they are injured. And where do they go to get how do they get treatment. That's the reason I asked about how close they were to medical facilities, and what kind of staff was going to be present within the facility. Yeah, so we will have a nurse on staff. So it could be triaged onsite would occur here on this first floor space, where it's the intake in the nurses office, and there's also a restroom with a sink and, and whatnot there to work with the kids medically as well as do when they come in for intake as well when they first arrive at the facility. So I can walk you through this a little bit more. We ready. So you can see at the very bottom of the screen there's a vehicle. That's where the transport will come in. They come into the intake room. As, as Commissioner Brown noted there's a nurse that's where the nursing office will be. We also after a lot of discussion we decided we needed to have a shower in that area to because kids coming in may need an opportunity to get to join the milieu if there's anything that they need to any personal hygiene needs that they need to address we wanted to make sure that they had that opportunity. That's where you'll do the intake the information information about the child and then the child will go into the foyer and then back down the stairs are in a little lift to the bottom floor. Now this, you'll see that there's a rough middle of this schematic. The left hand side is secure the right hand side is not secure. Except where you see the dark wall. No, that's not true. Just the center the center is the, the, the line for the, excuse me, the security. So the kids can be in the dining room that's where they'll be having their meals. They'll come up the stairs through the foyer and into the dining room. The family room the family room is going to be a really important room because it is both a family room where kids can meet if appropriate with their family if they want to come visit. It will also be where we likely have most of the court hearings, virtual court hearings. We talked with the defender general and DRVT about that about making sure that we have adequate. Wi-Fi and broadband we're going to be having to spend some money to put in an adequate system or adequate broadband in that area. The defender general advised us that he what he has found most useful for providing adequate legal services as a computer and two cell phones, so that the the client can talk to the lawyer confidentially on one phone while also connecting through the computer to the actual court hearing. So that's what that will be used for. It'll be used for other kinds of things too, but those are the primary things we'll be using that room for. It'll have probably couches and a desk and things like that in there. And then there's the exercise room for bad weather days and for kids who want to be doing things like weightlifting and, you know, running machines, things like that. This is the third floor, which we won't be using, but we could show you anyway so you see, get a better sense of what the building is. It looks like probably what your picture of a country in looks like, you know, it's sort of a big rectangular building and it's three and it's humane floors and the basement. This top floor was used by the Vermont assessment center when they were doing assessments here. And as I said, we're not going to be using this floor but we are putting the Lula left to the top and securing some of the spaces. Do you want to look at the overall picture of the lot itself. Madam chair. Yes. Can I ask a question. You certainly can. May I guess I guess I should use proper English. So if you could go back to the, not the basement I guess it's the first floor. And I can sort of see the that it appears that there is lots of natural light in the building, which even though it's secure that that is important I think in terms of the overall feel of the building. One of the things you didn't really talk about is the use of the great room. And yeah. So what I'm, what I'm sort of is rumbling around in my head is with my previous experience with group homes and that are run for you know groups of people. There sometimes tends to be this sort of like total separation of staff and residents and that. So I understand the need for there to be secure parts of the building. I guess what I'm trying to get at is. And I understand offices, you know, being sort of offices and, you know, off limits but I'm just trying to get a sense because you made a point of saying that the secure part of the building is on the left hand side is I'm looking at the plans and I can really talk about the great room and I'm just hoping that we're not sort of setting up this dichotomy of, you know, staff are always here and you know, students are always here, you know, left and right and the kitchen to be honest with me doesn't have a big for the group of people who are going to be eating here and I'm just thinking about programming and teaching meals and, you know, teaching cooking and things like that and just how are all these things fitting together I guess, in this space. I'll speak to the great room and I think I'll let Jennifer Herbert talk about that particular thing. This is so the great room, as you point out is not going to be used for the children. And we expect there to be one to one staffing for the kids so there will always be a lot of staff in the in the room in the main living area for the kids. I do not anticipate actually having kids here long enough to engage in the kind of programming you're talking about around kitchen skills or things like that. I think it would not at all, it would be not safe for many of the kids who are there to engage in. And one of the things that the Beckett, Jeff Karen from Beckett has voiced as a concern to me with his when that when there was discussion about whether we should have two kinds of programs in this building. He said it's really hard to have different levels of permit permissiveness when you're trying to run one program. So he, he, he's going to say is this is a really secure facility for kids who are in crisis. And we don't expect to be engaging in a lot of vocational type activities. I'm going to enter interject on some level this. It was our collective understanding that covered bridge was going to take the place of Woodside and that we know the state. We never needed a 16 plus bed facility, or justice involved youth because who needed locked facilities, a secure locked facility, we only needed a couple, four to six people, kids, youth were at Woodside, sometimes upwards of a year. They were attending. They went when we all took a tour, various times in the last two years of Woodside, there were youth sitting at desks, getting education. So now Jennifer you're talking about short term. I'm getting a bit confused. Go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say, yeah, we found that that the model of that Woodside was based on starting in 1984, the 30 bed concrete jail like facility where kids stayed for long periods of time was really not a therapeutic milieu and where kids made significant progress. I think what we're finding is that Vermont's need for that type of facility given its investments it's been making over many years in terms of community based services and treatment and investing in all ranges of care have really led to a decreased need for a Woodside type facility. You know what we what we envision is a facility that secure that can serve up to six that's kind of what we envision what I think the max we would need for this. And really, with the principle that we want to treat kids in the least restrictive setting possible. And so once kids are stabilized we want to move them quickly to that next placement for them where they can start stepping down and re engaging more closely in the community. Thank you. We have as a committee maximum about 45 minutes and I do know that we're going to lose at least two committee members in 15 minutes, one of which is representative Rosenquist. So he has his hand up. So I want to give he and representative would the next 15 minutes to ask whatever questions of clarification or questions in general. What I was wondering about was the, the staff that is going to be there on an overnight basis I didn't really see facilities for them look like nice facilities all the way up on the third floor. But we're hearing that that's not going to be necessarily used way I understood it, but where is the residential staff that's going to see these the youth through the through the night I guess is what it amounts to. So the staffing pattern will be designed as such that they'll be working with the kids and shift so there won't be like a sleep staff that like spend the night and sleep on the shift they will be awake at all times and monitoring and you know for youth wakes up and needs needs assistance or whatnot and just keeping the eye on things obviously the staffing will look a little different but they will be awake staff at each shift they won't be spending the night and like they'll be awake staff is the model we're using. Thank you. At this point representative would or represent Rosenquist you have questions, either about these slides or a question in general about this. But continue one one more question. This is like the access to the building, like the doors near the bedrooms and all that. Are they permanently locked and would have to have staff operate the doors or what. Yes, the door all the doors here in and out of the facility and movement into the facility will be electronic only monitored and released doors and so on the on the floor with the great room there will be in a space that will have a control room that will be monitored 24 seven was with, you know, monitoring the camera system but also, you know, the movement of youth and staff throughout the building to the locked doors. Thank you. Thank you madam chair. I guess I want to follow up to actually your comment of a few minutes ago in that I'll be honest I'm not feeling confident that they're going to move in and out of this facility as quickly as maybe we would hope that they would. I mean just know that they're, they're always issues with whatever the, you know, next lease restrictive setting is or moving them to another placement and things get backed up or, you know, court dates get postponed and or family issues take take over. And I don't know I don't really know how to phrase this in the in the form of a question to be honest with you. I really am trying to figure out how that is all going to play out here. I just think that we need to plan for the potential of youth being here longer than you might anticipate them being here and so I guess it's just something I need to grapple with. And, you know, you, in one hand you said we didn't need a facility like, like Woodside on the flip side, you know, this looks very similar to a facility like Woodside only and nicer outside and on a beautiful setting. My feedback. I just want to respond a little bit. I agree with you. I think that we're, I personally as we think about the lease and struggling with are not the least but the program contract. I think about how do we, how do we make sure it's a short term facility with with those variables that you pointed out around court hearings and, you know, maybe the child isn't settling the way he should. And the concern I have about allowing it to be longer is is sort of this idea, if you build it they will come right and that's that's the idea, the same thing and all those variables that you talk about play into that. So we are, what I can say is we are giving it our best shot to try to manage those and we're thinking we're trying to think about that so we're open to any and all. Assistance around that because we don't we don't want this to be a long term facility and that's one of one of my concerns is making sure that that we don't allow that to happen and that will require us thinking about what are our other treatment options in the community and how can we make sure that those are well supported so that we can in fact make sure that we can advance to last restrictive alternatives when when they need to be moved. Yeah, I'll just, I'll add to that if I can. I think research shows very clearly that any prolonged periods and in placement settings such as this is is can actually be more harmful than helpful and there's there's typically windows of opportunity where youth are engaged and ready to move on to the next steps in terms of the work of us developing those pathways forward and opportunities along the continuum of care to support their next steps and the focus really shifting to that arena so that we're not we're not creating a space to accommodate a long term placement and a setting that we know might not be helpful overall for for kids. Jennifer and committee we seem to which is appropriately moved off of the physical space, and we probably should move off of that if so Julie could take that off the shared screen. And I do see though that representative McFawn has a question. I am wondering if the third piece of your, I think, Commissioner that you said you had three aspects that you were going to go through. I think that right. Yeah, well Jennifer touched on the third earlier which is the treatment program component and I didn't know if we want to pull that up and Jennifer could walk you through some of the assessment tools that are being going to be used in the facility. Well, well I have given me one and I have not forgotten representative McFawn, your question, but I think based on the questions that I am hearing from folks especially as it has to do with where youth are and the length of time and balancing that with to use Jennifer your comments, if you are concerned about if you build it they were come. And one of your first slides said that one of the goals was to the youth with children and youth reside and receive treatment in the least restrictive environment. One of the things that probably would help us will be to understand what are the other alternatives when children and youth cannot be at home and cannot be in a foster home, but need to be in some sort of, I think that's some of where some of these questions are, but representative McFawn has had his hand up. Yeah. We have some experience with the, I'm sure, the average state of kids that are at the Beckett facility in New Hampshire, over the past year or so. What's the average state of those kids. We have to work with Beckett to get you that data representative McFawn we don't have that with us today. Okay, that might answer. Yeah. Give us a little bit of an answer toward the question of how long the kids are going to stay there. And I just have one concern. One of the concerns that was with Woodside or where the kids will be in place between Woodside and where they are in New Hampshire now was okay. I look at that elevator in the middle of the building. I'm sure it's going to be a keyed elevator. But if you're securing the bottom floor, and parts of the other built parts of the building are not secure upstairs. If someone gets a hold of that key, they're gone. Yeah, so the areas of the building representing McFawn where the elevator will stop at that sort of. So it's like say a youth gets in the elevator in the basement, the first floor, what I'll call it. They'll be able to take it to the second floor. That will that will, they will exit the elevator into a secure space. And the same will be if somehow it went to the third floor. That is a, in that spot where it opens up, it will be a secure space as well. Is my understanding. So that. Okay. I'm looking at the schematic right now. It doesn't look secure to me. Once you get out of that elevator, you can go. Well, they would meet. Well, the. Yeah. And then they go. Yeah, I'll, what I'll do represent me, Fawn is we'll work with the architects to get the answer to your question. I think. Yeah, I think what you should do, Sean, is this, make sure that the escape pod is clean, that they can't get out of that building, because that will the people in the community. That's one of their main concerns. If one of them gets out or two of them gets out. Okay, so I think what you have to do is make sure that it's solid. There's no way they're going to get out. If everything works right right now I, I'm, I'm not an escape artist, but I think I could get out of that building. I'm representing my phone. I, I believe that the commissioner has heard your concerns and your questions. And, and, and the, I would say the import of them is that in the planning, there has to be community approval and permit and stuff. And so you're suggesting areas that they look at so that both the children or youth are treated responded too well and that the community move quickly forward. Yes. Yeah, I know anticipate their questions. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Madam chair. Yeah, you're welcome. Commissioner or. Or Jennifer one or Jennifer two. I do want to go back to, and we all as a committee were part of a hearing. Oh, was it just last Friday with Senate and judiciary where there was concerns expressed around moving youth from placement to placement to make room for other youth. That was one of the kind, you know, sort of things and so I think what some of the, our questions are, if this is going to be short term if you're saying practice and current best practice and where things have moved is not to have long term. And that the youth won't need this kind of longer term facility. Okay, so where are they going to go. And, and, and since people are saying right now we don't have enough of those, whatever you interim, not interim, but intermediate level residential facilities what I used to call group homes. Where the kid, where are the youth going to go. So, so we addressing that. So, we actually use a wide variety of community providers for different types of residential care in the state we have a number of kids in state and out of state and residential treatment and I was just trying to see if I had that sheet with me today. But you know we have close to between 120 and 140 children in residential care in state and out of state and a wide variety of programs. Those are kids who are not is it clear those are kids that we've heard. I've sort of moved you off of and I apologize but those are not necessarily kids who are justice involved. In fact, I mean, it includes both and so that would be kids in our child protection system and then kids in their juvenile justice system. I would say it's probably, and this is ballpark, 80% of the kids in our residential system of care right now, our child protection youth, and the other, you know, 20 to 30 depend, you know, 25% are juvenile justice kids and they're in a wide variety of programs those out of state are in more programs specifically tailored to meet their needs, just because we are a small state and don't have a large number of kids need that type of specific service or treatment. Can you give us an example of to meet their needs. So you, you may have a child who, who exhibits behavior and Jennifer Herbert please feel free to jump in here. That that may exhibit, you know, in terms of their release of, of, of, you know, their behavior as they set fight. So we don't necessarily have programs that specialize in treating, you know, that condition and so we may need to work with a provider out of state that does provide that has a provider that does provide that level of treatment and that can be, you know, very unique across a spectrum of needs, where we would use an out of state provider. And so we may play another area where, in terms of residential care that we may rely more on out of state providers and in state, our youth with complex developmental disability and mental health needs co occurring that we have limited in state treatment capacity there and so we may utilize an out of state provider for youth who have those co occurring conditions. So it really is depending on the unique needs of the kids and what their, and what their needs are that where we would look to serve them, we also have lots of kids in programs in state. What we're finding right now the pandemic is putting pressure on the system in a couple of different ways we actually have a lot of contracted beds that aren't being used right now but are it's just because of the pandemic, it's stressing how kids move through the system one you her testimony, it just transports my name Sheriff's departments to transport kids, it has been a challenge we believe we have a solution for that, but then also the staffing of those facilities, and the health and safety regs and how they admit youth and move youth out. And if there's a positive with either a user or a staff, you know they kind of have to shut down until we can do, you know, you know, triage that are health response and so that's really putting pressure on our system right now. We believe once we're through the pandemic that pressure should alleviate and will be able to access more of the beds that we have under contract. But right now the pandemic is putting pressure on the system in ways. I don't think we knew at the beginning, but that we're seeing it manifest now. So Commissioner your department broadly around childcare and around homelessness was really quite creative and ensuring that those impacts on space and congregate living, etc. were creatively and effectively responded to. I have to say I haven't quite seen that you haven't shared with us the creative and effective response for the, as you say, the impact of the pandemic on health and congregate living for this population. Yeah, so, you know, we have provided in terms of the, you know, our lower levels of care there's been several rounds of financial support to help support foster parents and maintaining youth in their care in terms of meeting the increased cost of, you know, during the pandemic and responding to the pandemic and there as well we've also worked. I'm going to ask you lots of questions. Sure. Commissioner. So you're, you're supporting foster parents. Yes. And you gave an example of money. Yes. So how much. So, I'm, okay, I'm a foster parent. I've got two kids in my care. They were paying $40 a day. Yeah, they were targeted payments that started at the beginning of the pandemic and then the Joint Fiscal Committee allocated additional resources in December to go out to foster parents as well. I'm just trying to get to the individual foster parent and how much is it. I would have, I don't have those details with me, but we can provide that information. Because I realized that the, like everything, there is a range of, and Commissioner, I will say, and I will stand corrected when you get me the information. But once upon a time, one could say, it will cost me more to board my dog. When I go out of town, and what the state pays foster parents to take care of troubled kids. And if that is true, and we're now asking them to do more. I want to know how we're. How are we doing with money? Are we supporting them with anything else? I don't care about money. I don't know what to do with these kids. How are, how are we helping foster parents with that with the community. So basically community services to support foster parents. And also making sure we have a rapid response team. So if there's a positive case of either a foster parent or a youth in their care that we provide supports to make sure that, you know, that family is supported and that youth is supported. And that, that response could look a variety of different ways, depending on the circumstances. But yeah, so we do, we do have that. And that's in terms of the lower level foster care. We are also working on an initiative right now that we just kicked off in the last week or so looking at trying to provide some enhanced foster care services to boost our community based level of care. You know, we're at the early stages of that work, but that's something we've kicked off recently as well. And so you should see something in the near future on that as well. Also, we've been working with our in state providers, you know, in terms of, you know, making sure they have the proper guidance. In terms of health and safety with, you know, with the youth and if there's a positive case, and we need to, you know, you know, work with them so that they can, you know, limit the number of youth they have in their program and we've also increased rates through this for some programs as well to help support them with the increased burden that they're seeing as well. So those increasing rates continued for, oh, let's keep our, let's be positive for only six months in the upcoming budget. Those rates aren't limited, it will be based on, you know, it's based on the cost of their care and so as long as their costs remain that cost that will be their rate. So that's what we've been working through the rate setting process that, you know, there's a, you know, depending on the type of provider, you know, there might be a Medicaid rate but then we use rate setting for other PMI, you know, providers. Right. Yeah, perhaps I misunderstood you. Yeah. I thought you said that there are some enhanced based on the unique needs or the pandemic that there were some enhanced services and support. Yeah, so certain we've worked with one provider in particular in southwestern Vermont, where they made some changes to their program and made some expansions, and then also included a crisis bed in there as well for access at any time of the day. You know, we, you know, that that led to a change in the cost structure of their contract but then on top of that, they were having increased staffing costs and whatnot just because of responding to the pandemic. And we've worked with them to provide an additional rate enhancement to make sure that that they were staying solid and not incurring any losses to make sure we're meeting their needs. Have we lost any group homes or residential providers? I'm not aware of any due to COVID so I, but I would need to check with our team on that. I'm just, I'm, I'm thinking about how creative you were and the department was for instance in terms of childcare and the reimbursement in childcare was not based on attendance for a while, but based on capacity. And if we are talking about reimbursing, we're talking about rate setting and rate setting is based on who's in the bed. I'm just, I'm concerned about the long term by. Yeah, and I would need to check with my team but there is a process that we call extraordinary relief when providers experience some difficulty financially that we can support them and I would need to check with my team but I believe we may have used that process for some providers to make sure that they're supported. I just don't have the specific details with me today. Normally I don't care about money I'll just spend it. But I am concerned about there being sufficient services between living at home and being in a hospital based or a locked facility all that whole range in between. Which is consistent with your goal which is that, that children and youth are in as much as possible, you know, in the community or in the least restrictive environment. So both in terms of where does covered bridge it in to the system. And how are we going to be supporting it the rest of the system in this upcoming budget. Okay, I stopped asking questions. Are there other questions from their questions from other members of the committee. Representative Redmond. Thanks Madam chair, just a question about the broadband issue. And, and what's involved like is that a doable project because I think the, the virtual hearing, the ability of, you know, kiddos in that age group to be able to watch TV, you know, like all of those are that's an important part of a successful formula. I'm curious about the broadband question and what's involved, and also the municipality and the community wondering I know that, you know, you're working the process through with them and that's terrific. If there if people did, you know, have concerns is there, you know, are you able to proceed and move forward in working with them or is there, you know, ever a point where, you know, they could prevent it. I'm just curious if that's even an option or if, you know, that's not that's not a concern. So, I'll answer the first piece of the broadband is doable we've looked into it and we know what it's going to take to upgrade that line and we're prepared to do that. In terms of the community engagement. It's an, that is a crucial piece of this project and, and it's an important piece of this project and so we've started that engagement and we want to reach out particularly to the community members who spoke and who live in the vicinity of that, you know, on some of the traveled roads you go to get to this facility, who expressed concern, you know, similar to what represent McFawn about elopements people getting you know youth getting out of the facility. And then concern for their safety if that happened. And so, I think there's a lot we can do to work with those community members to help put processes or procedures in place or other mechanisms to meet their concerns and work with them. And then obviously, you know, we need to go through the town permitting process. And so that you know that that is that their towns process and so we need to see where that where that goes. And they permitted as a residential treatment program in their community because it was operating as such, but it was, it was for up to 12 youth and this will be for six. So it's a smaller footprint youth wise but although a higher level of acuity, and also it's a secure facility instead of a staff secure facility. And I don't want to be as presumptuous to say that, you know, we're going to move this board without community support, I think it's important that we work with the community, and make sure they have a comfort level with this project before we sign any contracts, or lease agreements or, or, you know, and start making investments in this in this facility that we know we have the support to do so that that's crucial. And I'll just thank you, and I'll just throw in one more question about, and I brought this up last time about staffing. You know, have you looked into the whole staffing question around, you know, I know that that area is along the I 91 corridor, which is great because, you know that brings people from a lot of different directions. Do you feel confident that you're going to be able because this is a specialized kind of staffing. Do you feel confident that you're going to be able to come up with the people you need. You know, you mentioned awake overnight, which you know you need a certain a person with a certain kind of background to be able to do that and awake overnight staff is traditionally very hard to hire. I'm just, just wondering what your thoughts are about the staffing piece. Yeah, you know, and we've spent a lot of time discussing staffing and that a lot of those conversations formed whether this was a project to move forward with because as you pointed out, it is a new Barry Vermont. And, you know, Beckett run several programs across the river, and I think pike and another community not too far from there. And they've been running those programs for quite some time, albeit they do not pay the level of wage that we will be paying in this facility here within the benefit structure that will be paying. So they believe based on their experience, and then the wage structure will be paying that they'll be able to hire and maintain and keep the staff that they hire. Thank you commissioner. I see another question from representative Bromstead, then I do want to give you and your staff if you have any final comments because it's about to any final comments but first Jessica represent Bromstead. Madam chair, I, my question is around education. I know that you're hoping that the, that the folks that are here won't be there that long but in when we looked at Woodside they had a great little educational program going as well it seemed anyhow from my visit. I'm sure it about high school equivalencies and if you would be working with the kids to get them there. And then my other question might be really not I shouldn't say dumb but I feel like I just am not sure so I'm going to ask it. Are they, are they all males in the facility. Yeah, we, there will be an education education component and they'll be educational, you know, staff on site to work with the youth and I would defer to Jennifer. You know, if you have more to add to that but that that is that is going to be a critical piece of the program that's going to be provided to the youth is that educational component. Thank you. And they'll be getting their schoolwork from whatever high school that they were in before as well. So that's, and the female justice and we're going to continue to be receiving questions about this facility and is it meeting the needs of Vermont. And you said it was a male only facility so it might be helpful if you provide us. What will happen to female justice involved youth and how many perhaps over the past couple of years how many females were at were at. Did we serve at Woodside and how many did we need to serve elsewhere, because that will be a question. Absolutely. And I know that young women were served at Woodside at one time. When I came on as commissioner. They were no longer being served at Woodside and we were using other placement treatment but we can get you that information. Yeah, and we do have one more question represent Whitman. Thank you. I just wanted to add really quickly in addition to male female looking at non binary transgender youth as well. Jennifer, I didn't. I didn't know if you want to jump in here in terms of any work that you may be doing around that for this center. So we're going to be developing policies around that and when possible, we're going to want to place based on the gender identity preference, but we're we're going to approach it on a case by case basis. And we're in the kind of the policy and and practice procedures of that. Thank you. And commissioner in the five. Topper is to say quick question because it is 254. It sure is. What are you doing now with that population. Jennifer, I didn't know if you want to jump jump in here. That's a good question. I can speak to what was being done at Woodside and there were a few different practices that were developing. And if in in accordance also with the gender responsive care and training that was being implemented or attempted to be implemented before the closure. And operationalizing certain components of starting from even the search process any security measures and having that be the gender preference of the youth. So with placement based off of gender preference and just creating any accommodations that would lead to a greater sense of safety. And so, with placement of particular use right now I'm not aware of any particular cases currently that are that have brought this up. Yeah, and you know, we can work with our residential team at FSD and provide any data that we have or additional information on this. Thank you for the committee. Commissioner, you have five minutes to leave us with your. You will you and your staff with anything you'd like to leave us with today in our conversation. Yeah, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today. You know this has been an ongoing conversation. You know about the, you know, the status of Woodside dates back many years. You know this committee was actively involved in the decision to close it. And is that, you know, actively involved as we build out this one component of our system care here. And then also I think making sure that we have other areas of our system of care is robust as well and you know we appreciate that work and your attention to it. We're excited by the progress we've made here in the amount of time that we've had available, you know, starting this fall. A lot of work has occurred. There's a lot of work ahead of us. But we want to make sure that we're keeping this committee a prize each step of the way, particularly at critical decision points. You know, we've received a lot of great information and things to think about today. And I would just say that the but you know that we in the restatement budget in September. You know we did have 1.2 million set aside for renovation cost. I think those will be closer to three to 3.2 million. And so there's 2 million more in in our BAA of one time money to complete the renovations of this facility. Obviously, you know, we would not make those investments unless we had full assurance that this project can move forward with the support it needs. Nice to meet. I appreciate meeting the two new staff and Judy Rex you got off by not having us ask you questions but now you have a sense of our MIDI and we know who we know where you sit now within the department so we may be wanting to hear from you as well in your policy response. So, thank you all. This ends our Friday afternoon, February 12 House Human Services Committee meeting focused on covered bridge and as well as in terms of how how Vermont is responding to and serving on youth, especially justice involved youth, but you