 Okay. At this time, we'd like to start the last panel of today. And we're very, very glad to have you here for this particular session, because this is a chance to talk about some things that haven't been talked about yet today. And we have called this particular section news in terms of looking at storage, and also some other related energy and electricity technology. So in here, we're going to be hearing more in terms of looking at, once again, at fuel cell applications, at Smart Grid, and we're also going to be hearing about a district energy combined heat and power. And so to start off our discussion, I'm going to turn first to Ruth Cox, who is Executive Director for the U.S. Fuel Cell Council. Thank you so much. And for all the hard work you do on behalf of the renewable energy and energy efficiency field, we appreciate it. Thanks so much to all of you for being here. I'm going to talk about fuel cells and hydrogen as integral components of the clean energy economy. I think oftentimes people don't realize the role that fuel cells and hydrogen can play as we build out this new infrastructure, and so that's what I'd like to focus on. And we'll talk a little bit about some applications around storage on the grid. I always like to just put things in context and talk a little bit about the market drivers. We found that energy consumption is going to grow over 40% worldwide in the next 20 years. And it's already in the quadrillions of BTUs, so it's a pretty phenomenal number. And as energy consumption is growing, just here in the United States alone, let alone outside the United States and China and India, 55% of our electricity is still produced by burning coal here. And that's a big challenge for us as we move into electrified vehicles and with all of the electric appliances and gadgets that we have that we're literally burning coal to power them. So in the impact of the environment, the economy, our health and well-being, it's just piling up. You know, a lot of our health care issues are related to the environment and all of the greenhouse gases and other noxious emissions that we put in the air in our power use. We have the higher deficits. One of the congressmen early today talked about how much of the deficit is due to our importation of oil. We're having oil spills on our shores. I mean, how many more times do we have to experience this before we do something? Mind disasters and, you know, the potential extinction of animal species, flora, fauna. I mean, we're just, you know, kind of pigging out and letting the chips fall where they may. And, you know, we can have our cake and eat it too, but we need a paradigm shift to do that. So clean energy technologies are being developed and deployed now. We are migrating to the electric drivetrain vehicle, which I think will help a lot, especially as more and more renewable energy can be used to power them. And you're seeing a new architecture emerge for energy delivery, and it's required now to alleviate the congestion that we already have, let alone that we're going to have when we have millions of plug-in vehicles on the road, and also a distribution mechanism to provide clean fuels. So the grid, as we know it, must be transformed. And that's why we're seeing the introduction of fuel cells and hydrogen for distributed generation, for storage, for intermittent generation by renewable fuels like wind or solar, providing new options for peak load management, and for the generation of clean fuels for mode of transportation with excess capacity. And I'll give you some examples of where this is happening. In the area of distributed generation, we're seeing now utilities using stationary fuel cells on grid for generation of power. From in the plant, you know, or the central facility, I think of it as a central office because I come from the telecom business, but from the plant to the edge of the grid. So the utilities are now starting to deploy stationary fuel cells and moving power closer to the consumer. Homes and businesses are using stationary fuel cells for combined heat and power or for just power on their premises. And this can be used for peak load generation back to the grid oftentimes. And we see portable fuel cells can actually generate electricity for use anytime, anywhere, on your body, on devices that you carry. It's a pretty amazing thing. So you see fuel cells have this extraordinary continuum of a big, you know, megawatt-sized power generation system to, you know, some water too that might power your cell phones. So it's pretty interesting that you can have many stops on that continuum and still be able to employ fuel cells and oftentimes hydrogen, but other fuels as well to power them. In the case of storage, the utilities are using electrolyzers to store electricity as hydrogen. And that hydrogen can be used to power fuel cell electric vehicles. It can be used for industrial purposes. It can be used to generate electricity when the grid needs it. So we're already starting to see this infrastructure get built out using hydrogen and fuel cells. In the mode of transportation area, we have fuel cell electric vehicles for material handling, light and heavy-duty transportation vehicles and public transportation, and they're spawning this new refueling infrastructure that actually complements the stationary fuel cell installation. So if you have, for example, a stationary fuel cell generating power and you can also have it generate hydrogen that can be used to run your forklifts, that's the kind of combination capability that we're talking about. So it's very versatile as well. Some of the benefits that you gain from using fuel cells and hydrogen is a higher efficiency, lower greenhouse gas emissions and other noxious emissions. And when the hydrogen is created with renewable sources, we have a zero emissions product, absolutely zero. It's reliable, it's scalable, it's flexible, and that's why you can distribute it in the way that we were describing earlier. You get faster time to energy. It's much easier to put a fuel cell on a premise or at the edge of the grid than it is to build a new substation or to build a new utility plant. And you have faster return on investment to many other options. We like to have all options on the table, so I don't want to make any negative comparisons, but I will say that the return on investment calculations for fuel cells is actually very good. Silent operations, that's actually very helpful in a number of areas, not the least of which is the military. And, you know, they're big fuel cell users, especially on the battlefield. The low heat and the lack of noise is a big advantage for them. And, you know, the portable options are lightweight and have a long battery life or a long energy life. And I think, you know, something that's really important that was also mentioned earlier today is that these products are engineered and produced here in North America. It enhances our national security as well as our energy security, and it creates jobs. The DOE has estimated more than 500,000 jobs or potentially be filled as we build out fuel cells and hydrogen in our energy infrastructure. So just a couple of examples of utility scale initiatives that are currently underway. On the big island of Hawaii, there's a geothermal energy, it's actually energy coming from a volcano. So geothermal energy is being stored as hydrogen, and that hydrogen is being used for a lot of different things. For buses, for light vehicle transportation, it's being used to, it's turned into ammonia to be spread on fields, I believe, in farming. So there's many other industrial uses for hydrogen. And it is, this utility scale system is helping them to address pertainment issues that they experience. You know, sometimes these volcanoes ebb and flow just like wind and solar. So it's not always available, so that's one of the reasons that they're doing this. And some big names are involved in this. I think Puna is the name of the geothermal energy company in Hawaii, the DOE, the Ohio Natural Education Institute, or I think it's called HNEI. EPRI is involved in this for GM and others. So there's some very big companies that are involved and organizations involved in making this happen. South Carolina is another example where landfill gas is being used to generate hydrogen, and they're going to use this hydrogen for fuel cell powered materials handling equipment. And it involves BMW and again DOE and the Natural Gas Institute and the South Carolina Energy Office and the South Carolina Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Alliance. And then in Colorado, wind energy is being stored as hydrogen for multiple uses. This, again, is utility scale addressing pertainment issues and involves NREL, Excel energy and others. So we have examples of where, you know, fuel cells and hydrogen are being used as storage mechanisms. But there's also this side benefit of being able to use hydrogen for other applications. And so I just want to point that out. So just to sum up and reiterate, in the situation that we're in today where every time, you know, Iran rattles at Sabre or, you know, we have another oil spill or another mine disaster, all options need to be on the table. Hydrogen and fuel cells are a viable option. They are operational today. They are giving value in both commercial and demonstration applications. We have zero emissions at point of use and zero emissions across the board if we're generating hydrogen from renewable sources. It complements renewable energy sources. We enhance the performance and reduce the environmental impact of fossil fuels. We're going to have fossil fuels for quite some time. They scale from, you know, use in portable hand-held devices to utility-sized electric generators, electricity generators. And again, they're engineered and produced here in North America, creating jobs and boosting economic growth. So we have a vital role to play in the clean energy economy. Thanks so much. Great. Thanks, sir. And I think a key theme throughout today and as you've seen in the expo is that all of these technologies, these different resources, are all very, very complimentary. And we're very, very lucky to have this kind of a whole array of opportunities in terms of different technologies, resources, applications, so that we are not stuck just in one place, one option for different things. So I'd now like to turn to Rob Thornton, who is the Executive Director for the International District Energy Association. And the kind of resource and technologies that Rob's going to talk about is something that, again, is very practical. I would say very, very common sense. Something that should be done has lots and lots of applications in many, many different places around this country. Again, another resource that isn't being tapped nearly often enough is being tapped quite a lot more in other countries in terms of their recognition of how it fits into their national energy strategy. Rob. Thanks very much, Carol. Common sense, ubiquitous. You know, that's really district energy. Raise your hand if you went to college in the United States. Raise your hand. I'm willing to bet that 99% of you lived in a dorm that was served by district energy. Most college campuses in this country, in fact, there are 2,500 district energy systems in the U.S., and many hundred universities have a central plant. And district energy is where there's a central plant, and then they pipe steam or hot water through underground pipes to heat the buildings. And then many universities also have district cooling, where they pipe chilled water to provide air conditioning to the buildings. So it's really thermal energy is what we're about. Sometimes I feel like the Rodney Danger field of energy in that we get no respect. You know, we're underground. We're sort of not, you know, not visible. And we're some ways like the best kept secrets. But what the beauty of district energy is by aggregating the heating and cooling loads of dozens, or in some cases, hundreds of buildings, we now create a thermal scale that makes some very innovative, efficient technologies economically viable, like combined heat and power, like recovering heat from a power station and using that to heat a city, like converting a coal plant to biomass, or using geothermal to heat a whole city, like Reykjavik. So I'm just going to share with you a couple of cases, three things, two cities in one country, and what they're doing with district energy. And hopefully you'll think it's important and go to our website and maybe learn a little more. But really we're about thermal energy and not so much electricity. One example is in St. Paul, Minnesota. 1980, the Department of Energy responded to a request and they, in the city of St. Paul decided they were going to rebuild their network and they converted from steam to hot water in 1980. And then 10 years later, they added district cooling, a chilled water network to provide air conditioning to all the buildings. And then 10 years later, they added combined heat and power. So now they're using waste wood that would otherwise go into landfill as a fuel source. Now, 10 years later, they're adding solar thermal to this network. The convention center, which is a huge roof right across the street from the plant, they're adding solar thermal panels, solar thermal panels, and they will feed that hot water into this district heating network. So in a short time, 30 years, my lifetime, half of my lifetime, well, not quite half, but in a short time, St. Paul is now a renewable city. And I'm here to tell you that if you want to be a green city and you don't have a thermal network, you are not green. You're mothed. Because you have to use the thermal energy to make these things work. It was another case, and this really goes to my colleagues on the smart grid and fuel cells. Well, I should have finished the point in St. Paul. So now they serve 80% of the buildings in downtown St. Paul. 30 million square feet on heating. Now, and they've converted from coal to waste wood. They've cut their CO2 emissions by 280,000 tons a year. But here's the kicker. Instead of buying coal or oil or something from somewhere else, their energy dollars are circulating in their community. This waste wood has spawned its own industry. And this is an economic success. It's not just an environmental success. It's an economic success. Okay. We're going to move to the Ivy League. Princeton University. Most campuses have district energy. As I said, in Princeton they have 150 buildings. They co-generate, so they burn natural gas. They run it through a jet engine just like you see on the side of an airplane. The gas goes through the engine, spins a turbine, makes power. The heat coming off the back, they use that, they put in a steam turbine, they make more electricity. Guess what? There's more heat left over. They use that to drive pumps. There's more heat left over. They use that to preheat the hot water. More heat left over. They use that to heat all the buildings in the campus. So the Princeton Central District Energy Plan is operating at efficiencies north of 85%. Very efficient, very economic. Here's the story. I'm kind of setting this up for my smart grid colleague. A day like this, 100 degrees outside in Princeton, it's a long part of the PJM grid, right? So they're in the wholesale power market. 100 degree day, they had a load on the utility of 27 megawatts. It's a good size load. One year later, they had implemented a command and control scheme with their co-generation plant and that district cooling. They make chilled water at night, store it, and they distribute that during the day. One year later, the price of power goes from $100. That's what happens in a restructured market, ladies and gentlemen. Princeton, their demand on the grid, 2 megawatts. You say, wow, good for Princeton. Good job. The story is there's 25 megawatts now available to that whole local economy, because Princeton isn't drawing on the wires. They're supplying their own need. They're making the grid stronger. All right. Last story is bigger scales. The country of Denmark. Five and a half million people. And the city of Copenhagen is a million people. In 1970, we had the first oil embargo, a price of oil tripled overnight. Denmark was tremendously exposed. 90% of their energy was imported oil. I was a paper boy at the time. I remember odd even gas lines, right? You had to line up for a gasoline. In Copenhagen, you couldn't drive a car on Sunday. This was an economic crisis. Their economy came to a screeching halt. And they said, we can't be exposed to this. They put in a law that said the Denmark electricity plan. If you're going to make electricity in this country, you have to sell the heat. You've got to use the heat. No more wasting it into the oceans. And then two years later, they did the heat plan for Denmark. And they decided to build infrastructure to distribute that heat so that instead of burning coal or oil, which was, you know, all imported, they would use waste heat from the power plant. And then they went one step further. They said instead of landfills, we're going to burn the trash and make heat with that and use that as well. And so today, in Copenhagen, 97% of the buildings are on district heating. 350,000 buildings are on district heating in Copenhagen. And from 1980 to today, the energy intensity of Denmark has only gone up 4%. So, you know, 4%. Their carbon emissions have gone down. This is a better presentation with powerpoint slides, by the way. It'll be, yeah. But I'll get to the punchline. So their carbon emissions have gone down 17%. But their GDP has gone up 78%. When they found oil in the North Sea, they began to export it. So their energy trade deficit in 1980, they were sending $5.5 billion offshore. Today, they have a surplus of $6 billion. Because they're not burning fossil fuel. They're using waste heat from their power plants and they're using their landfill as fuel. And they're heating their country that way. We can do this too, ladies and gentlemen. It doesn't have to be, you know, it does require, in some ways, I think, a crisis. And I know many of us have talked about the crisis that we're all encountering. So one final point. IDEA, we've been around since 1909. This is our 101st year. Most of these systems that I've talked about rely on any sort of subsidy or government support. But we would like to see some consideration for thermal energy be treated similar to electricity. We'd like to see a production, excuse me, a production tax credit for clean, renewable, thermal energy. At Cornell, they take water off the bottom of the lake and they use that to air-condition the building, the whole campus. There's no electricity involved, but they are displacing 87% of their electricity use. So we'd like for thermal energy to qualify as well. Tax exempt financing so that municipalities, campuses have the ability to fund these projects, both the plant and the pipe. There is tax exempt financing available for piping networks. We'd like the plants to qualify. And finally, in the 2007 ESA bill, we had an authorization for $3.5 billion. You know, those of you who know what the operation is, it's like having a checkbook with no balance in the account. We need an appropriation and we came very close with the stimulus bill and we had a $1.6 billion program in both the House and Senate. It went to the committee and we were splashed out at 3.30 in the morning. We did survive with $156 million program from DOE and we're grateful for it. But that $156 million attracted $9.2 billion worth of projects. The federal share was $3.4 billion. It was oversubscribed $25 to 1. Ladies and gentlemen, there is unmet demand for district energy in this country. People want to do it and we need to line up the policies to support it. That's my story. Thank you. Thanks, Rob. Thank you for your story. One of the other important attributes which you also made is that you keep so much more of the economic activity, the dollars, local. Which is another really, really critical piece. And now I'd like to turn to the very last speaker of the day. The Samsonites. Everybody's bags are packed. We're ready to go. We can't wait to hear from you, Catherine. And anyway, it's Catherine Hamilton who is the president of Gridwise. And so she is going to talk to us about smart grid and what that means and how it can improve the delivery of a whole lot of how we do things. All this great stuff. So raise your hand if you know what smart grid is. You're like way ahead of everybody else in the country. GE just released a study in March that 80% of the people in the U.S. have never heard the word smart grid. And the people who have only 4% of them even can begin to explain it. So it's new and different and cool and not it's not like something that's been around forever that everybody should just be doing. But it is something we should be doing. The Gridwise Alliance is a coalition so we're doing technology neutral. We do everything by consensus and we really just want to raise all boats for smart grid so we can create a market structure and profit everybody in the industry. So I just to let you know we don't come at this from any particular technology angle. Essentially smart grid is the way we view it is simply the digital overlay to the electromechanical grid in terms of electric internet or it means that we're going to have internet electricity. That worries me because we still need, I had somebody come up to me at a conference and say oh this is great we can get rid of all the transformers and the switches and the substations and the wires and I was like no that's wireless electricity and that's lightning and that's not what we want. We want to have a smarter grid which means that what we have to do at this level take it to the 21st century the way we have all of our other industries. We also see smart grid is not the end goal it's the means to the end. It's the set of enabling technologies that allow fuel cells that allow us to combine this routine that allow renewables and efficiency to all be on this grid in a way that makes sense and that allow everybody on the grid to be able to participate including consumers. So we don't see it as technologies to make our grid smarter and enable everything else to occur. We think it's going to one of the key things is that it's going to make our grid more reliable. We spend $150 billion a year in power outages. Now I was in that outage in how many people were in the October no it was August 2003 outage in like New York that whole yes there are a couple people. I was in my mountain cabin and we get outages all the time so we're like hey you know another day another outage and then my husband was on a modem and he said it's not just us this time and there are like 5 million people out. The interesting thing is that the grid did what it was supposed to do which was it did let go of New England so all the people vacationing on the Cape still had power. But essentially what happened then would not happen today because already we have more technology on the grid that gives us more visibility so that we know what's happening on the grid where the stress points are how to back feed quickly and it won't take us a year to find out that it was a branch in Cleveland that caused it anymore because already our system is better. That's all because of smart grid technologies all these technologies that give us more visibility on the grid so we think reliability while you may when you're sitting at home may not see the direct benefit of that I will guarantee you when you're sitting there in the snowstorm this year you were saying wow if only I could see that number on my TV screen that tells me who to call when my lights are out but I can't call because of course my cell phone's out of juice this is when we would need a smart grid so that everybody knows who's got power and when they've got it. It'll give us more flexibility and more security on the grid so as far as operations of our entire system it allows utilities to be able to function on our grid in a much more efficient way so that we can get efficiency out of our grid and it will prevent us from having to build more peaker power plants that will give us in combination with energy efficiency and ability to balance renewables and ability to really use our base load generation more efficiently and also allow us to have more demand as we move forward we don't see smart grid as one specific set of technologies that's going to look the same everywhere so when someone says oh what is it going to look like in 20 years I'll go well it's going to look different depending on where you are it's a different form of rural utility that's much more concerned about somebody down a 25 mile radial line and whether or not they have power than it is to an urban utility that's very worried about peak demand on the hottest summer day and are they going to have to have rolling blackouts so it's going to look different and the technology applications are going to look different depending on where we are where our system is and what the consumer base is some of our biggest challenges on the policy side so if we lose if we have $150 billion that we lose every year from power outages and smart grid was given $4.5 billion in the stimulus to make our grid smarter people thought that was a lot of money but really when you think about trying to get these technologies on the grid that are going to make our grid work better function better and allow renewables and efficiency to become much more balanced on the grid that's actually not that big amount of money so $4.5 billion to sort of unstop the cork to do a bunch of different projects on the grid to kind of see how this works and what that's going to do is prove out to our regulatory bodies in the states who regulate all these utilities that this is a good idea that it really does have benefits and it has benefits all along the grid and it has benefits to consumers as well so the grants are a big piece NIST has a process of doing interoperability standards because what we don't want to have happen is as technology advances that things become obsolete and you have to buy all new equipment instead we want everything to be very open so that we can switch out software very easily and we need those standards in place to do that another big piece of policy is there are other things if I ask my members what is the one thing that we can do to move smart grid and remember smart grid is being the enabling technologies for all these other things we want to get to a cleaner grid, a low carbon future what's the one piece of legislation that we want to get into place to make that happen they say a cost on carbon that that will organically incentivize everything else that we have to do and smart grid technologies will be part of that because that's how we're going to get there in order to deploy wind at scale we need digital dispatch systems we need energy storage we need dynamic forecasting that's all part of smart grid so if you think about all these enabling technologies those are the kinds of policies we want to put into place to make it work better and make us become more efficient another big piece is the regulatory structure utilities are very regulated by their public utility commissions or public service commissions in every state and how they view smart grid varies dramatically how they view renewables and efficiency varies dramatically and everybody, all the commissioners like to be able to decide how they want to do things in their own states make sure that those regulators understand that innovation that is here in the U.S. and that can create jobs because all of this is innovation has to be able to work in concert with a very regulated structure with our utility bodies to be able to push these technologies out the door and allow utilities to use them effectively finally consumer engagement and this is where the rubber really meets the road if you google the words pitchfork wielding mob the story that comes up is PG&E's Bakersfield smart meter rollout that's not good and this is happening when utilities and they're a very progressive utility PG&E has done amazing things in California but what they didn't do was explain to their consumers what was happening and what a smart meter was a smart meter on a house just like when you put a smart thermostat in your home and you don't program it it doesn't actually save you anything a meter on a wall just collects energy usage data and sends it back to the utility to bill you it doesn't actually give you anything until you query that meter until you have a system in your home that says this is what you're using and this is how you can change it won't do anything for you and consumers on finding out what they care about consumers do care about saving energy they do care about saving money and they actually do care about the planet and they want to do something about it but if you get a grocery bill at the end of the month and you don't know what groceries you bought which is essentially what we do with our electric system we don't get a bill until the end of the month you have no idea what you used you have no idea what piece of equipment used what we can't do that with electricity yet and smart grid technologies will allow us to do that I can look online and tell with my phone system I can tell that my daughter sends a text message every time she breathes in and out and that my mother of course only knows how to call out she doesn't know how to take calls so you know there are different types of technologies different types of people but we ought to be able to make decisions based on what we use and how we view it and how we need to change the way we view energy and see it as a commodity the same way that we see gas once it becomes a commodity we'll be able to make decisions and we'll be able to change our value structure around energy we put our recycle bins out not because we're paid to do so we do it because we have changed the value of garbage in our culture and that's the same thing we have to do about energy we have to do it based on price but we also have to do it based on value and the way we make decisions around how we use energy so I think that's a huge piece of how we need to get out as with the consumer side so I would just say as you hear about SmartGrid and don't believe all the stories don't think it's only pitchfork wielding mobs but BG&E did a great pilot where they got 98% satisfaction so there are also some people out there who are very very happy with how it's rolling out and it depends on how it's approached and how it's rolled out but hopefully SmartGrid will be able to be pushed out through policy and be able to help the folks during district energy and fuel cell so this whole system works together thanks and once again you can see how these things actually all can help each other one other point I just wanted to make quickly on the district energy side too is that in terms of thinking about our policy so much of our policy is focused either on electricity or upon fuels and the thermal side has really been left out of the whole picture which is why I think that it is a really important piece to address particularly when we think about how much thermal how much heat is used in buildings and so it's another piece as we think about overall energy strategy that we need to be looking at and as Catherine was talking about needing to get a price on carbon how that can really cascade through the energy economy in terms of helping us be able to be smarter consumers but it's really important to your point I think to make sure that we make it as easy as possible for us to use information to be good consumers because right now it's not all that easy so we've got a few minutes for Q&A for anybody who has a burning question okay back here so I've seen a lot lately on security of the US grid and the operability of packing various purchase in China and Russia and the rollouts of the smart grid projects that are over in the general thinking of the study of how to do smart grid companies are those concerns about grid security sort of and management of the planning? Yeah grid security is a huge issue for us to think about all the time so as smart meters most smart meter folks are building everything is trying to be built into the system so that you don't have to put it on later so that it's all wired in hard wired in and NIST is developing cybersecurity standards at the same time that they're developing interoperability standards and that's going to be really key but what utilities and manufacturers and manufacturers smart grid equipment are trying to do is make sure that it's embedded and not do something because we're scared of hackers while when we do put these technologies out there we'll have much better visibility and be able to react so much faster if anything goes wrong on our grid or if there's a vulnerability on our grid then if we didn't have that visibility so if we build it on the front end then we'll be able to react a lot faster and NIST is the National Institute of Science and Technology I've been in DC too long okay we're here first go ahead the question is on water and I think you may see something on the meter side for water but we haven't really figured out how to deal with the distribution piece of that yet but I think it's a real issue I was talking to some other folks in the expo from water management company about water as well as just two these technologies are too expensive to be used on a water system yet but that's all part of our system and water and energy are completely connected you need energy to heat and move water you need water to produce electricity in a lot of cases so my sense is that is going to evolve as well it's all part of the same system I'd just like to say that fuel cells have a byproduct of water and actually one of the reasons that we're on board aircraft is because water is one of the biggest weight items that the aircraft carries and so they'll be able to eliminate some of that weight by using fuel cells to generate electricity on the planes and use the byproduct water for further uses great okay back here and then here we'll take two more okay go ahead I know that some issues might be raised about privacy and whether people feel like they're being monitored and what's going on inside their homes yeah people say yeah people say they're going to the utilities and know it's in my refrigerator well if you use your giant card someone already knows what's in your refrigerator and they're selling that information to someone else so our privacy has already been completely compromised in every other respect I think they're going to build in working very hard on that with the future of privacy forum another group that thinks about privacy through internet privacy issues so we're working on that to try to also build it in they're going to have privacy built into the standards process as well but I don't think people even realize how much their privacy has already been compromised all those people on Facebook right okay okay here sure actually the only building in New York during the blockout was to set the half power which was set the park police station that had a few cells they didn't even know that the power had gone out I actually wanted to comment on that regarding the security issue because one of the reasons that the Department of Defense is interested in the station or the few cells is because they have they have to comply with this islanding requirement and that means that if we are if we have a disaster of some kind they have to be able to operate off grid and so that gives them the capacity to do that at the same time they're lowering the gas emissions or the noxious emissions and you know it just makes them more independent and I know years ago one of the first big financial companies that I'd heard of doing this is is it first financial in Omaha right they're connected to district energy okay so they're connected to and in fact they this is the facility this is all of these transactions and they needed six nines of electric reliability but they also wanted to go where the heating and cooling was reliable too and they chose Omaha, Nebraska and that fuel cell throws off so much heat that they're actually buying extra chilled water to air condition the property because there is so much surplus heat from the fuel cell so much usable heat we can help them use that heat there are lots of uses and I'll never forget when I first met a senior official from that company and he was talking about the thousands of financial transactions every second and which is why that they were hooked up to like a couple you know to the grid in terms of a couple transmission lines plus having fuel cells plus district energy in terms of making sure that they're out because he says you know you cannot say when you're dealing with all of these financial transactions like that all of these charge cards to trans get you cannot say to somebody just reboot your computer so anyway on that note I want to thank this panel you guys were terrific really really good information thank you for being here we really appreciate your being here for this 13th expo and forum and hope that it was that you learned a lot met a lot of good people today and please stay in touch with all of us it's our future thanks a lot