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You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. I would also like to say as well, I would like to thank you. I would like to thank Christian from RTN and I would like to thank Young Spray as well. You were the free that kind of reached out to me when nobody really wanted to touch me because it was kind of like I was like a to-be subject. So I would just like to thank you as well, I have actually been dedicated. A man who a lot of people would be surprised that you are saying thank you and speaking religion from a man who has done double shootings, who spent nearly 30 years in prison, from a man who was wild back in the day to then trying to make changes out now after nearly 24 years. Like it's a long time, things have changed just over the last 5 years, never mind 20. So it's good that you are actually sitting here now, seeing the world a bit differently. But before we get into all the nitty-gritty, let's go right back to the start just to get a bit of understanding about you. Where do you grew up and have it all began? Okay, so I actually grew up in South London. I originally come from Clapton Junction. Then eventually from Clapton Junction I actually moved to Wandsworth Road. So that is actually Patmore State. What were you like at school? To be fair, what the teachers say and from what the records actually state as well, they said that I was highly intelligent. But one of the problems that I was always succumbing to was my ability sometimes not to get along with other children. So I was constantly in fights. Now looking back, I understood the reasons why I got into so many fights as well. I was always a person as well that I always had a sense of, you know, like on justice. So when I believed that there was levels of social injustices, I felt that I needed to talk out against that, if that makes sense. And so I think that was some of the problems that actually occurred. What about family life, mum, dad, brothers, sisters? Oh yeah, it was nice. My parents had me at a young age. So I lived obviously with my mum, but she was at school age. So I was with my grandmother. In the Caribbean culture as well, your grandmother is kind of like the matriarch. And yeah, my father as well was young as well. My grandparents again, the grandmother, matriarch. It was good. My father, he had a company in painting and decorating. And my mother was a seamstress and she worked in Central London. So I can't say that I was dragged up. I have nine sisters and five brothers. None of them has ever been in trouble with the law. So you made up for that? You made up for it bro. I don't really think so. I know where it started though. You know, like sometimes when you, you know, you converse with many individuals and they sometimes struggle to understand where the trigger point was. For me, I knew where the catalyst was. What was that? When I was roughly about 10 years of age, my mum used to, I moved to Patmore. And at the time I didn't know, there was kind of like little rivalries because Patmore at the time when I was younger, it was like Switzerland. So you would have many other estates that would actually come into Patmore itself. So you would have like people from Brixton, Stockwell, they all seemed to get along. But for some reason they had a version for Clappenjunction and I was originally from Clappenjunction. So what actually happened was there was a group of, you know, other young kids that didn't like me. And I would always try to find ways of avoiding them. So unfortunately, one day they spotted me. They asked me to relinquish my jacket. I refused and I ended up being set up on. At the time I never understood because I've always seen adults as being protectors. So when I was screaming for help, no one was helping. But being an adult now, I can understand that some adults were probably scared because there were so many young people involved. They probably didn't want to get injured and hurt and so forth in the way society is. But at that time you see them as the protectors and they're not helping you. So when my mum took me to the hospital, I turned around and I said to my mum, it will never happen to me again. And that was the catalyst for things to start. So in my time, especially, we were always told to you go for the biggest one. You go for the ringleader. So obviously I approached that the person who I considered to be the ringleader with a round is back. And then from there, it altered my life. In that sense, I gained the respect of the estate. And then I went on to neighbouring estates and I used to just constantly fight. How was that feeling the first time you gave someone about a violence back? To be fair, even though I was young and I had a primitive way of thinking, I look back now and I realise that that allowed me then to develop an appetite for blood. So I thought, OK, so this is how I can get my message across. This is how you communicate. So I communicated with extreme violence. Did you feel as if you were taking control or did you feel out of control? I felt both. So sometimes obviously you feel that you're in control of a situation but sometimes you can feel out of control of a situation as well because how it leads you into. But yeah, I just felt that I needed to make a stance as what we say, I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees and I had enough. They call it the fight and flight syndrome but it's also freeze. So I knew by flight it would just prolong my suffering. I knew that freeze, I would just become an easy target. So I knew I only had one option and that was the actual fight. When did it start getting out of control? From using around us back to then using tools to then using blades? What age? I think, so I would roughly say maybe about 12. Still young? Still young, yeah. So now kids have, I think there were like butterfly knives and little lock knives and things such as that. So I think it developed in that way that then obviously I need to level up. So how do you level up? By carrying what they are also carrying, making sure that I don't become that victim again, being stumped upon, being kicked upon, calling for help and there's nobody to help. I saw that the world was a very cruel place and only the strong survive. It was survival of the fittest, which now as being an adult, I know it's just a mere justification for destroying and oppressing people much weaker than ourselves. So at that time, I didn't see it like that. When did you, you've done a five stretch? Was it the y-os you went to or Boston? What was it you've done? Yeah, so I was a bit too young because it was a sensitive case. So obviously I amplitated another young kid's finger. So I went to secure units first. So I went to Stanford House, I went to Orchard Lodge and I also went to Vinnie Green. But because of my behavior again, I was always history repeating itself with my fights and everything. As soon as I hit 15, they were happy and relieved. Now you're going to felt them. So that was kind of, that was kind of the pattern. What was it like chopping someone's finger off? To be fair, being so young because I was 13, it's, you're not understanding, you're not understanding the magnitude of what you've actually done. Now looking back, especially as an adult as well, it's a parent's worst nightmare. I'm not a parent, but I'm an uncle. I'm, you know, I'm an older brother and so forth. And it's just horrendous that, but unfortunately being young, you don't sometimes actually, how can I articulate this? See the repercussions. It's something that my father always said to me. He said his son, it's not the mistakes that you have to worry about, but it's the consequences that come with the mistakes. What was the reason for chopping the finger off? So with this, again, it comes down to groups dynamics and not liking the particular group. I can't say per se that that young person done anything directly towards me, but it's just the whole of who was connected with, I didn't like. So I was just making a statement and it's, it's bad, it's horrendous. My heart goes out to, you know, the young person grown man now and his family and so forth. And I hope I don't, you know, re-involve any feelings from talking about this. Yeah, fair play. Obviously you've changed your whole outlook on life, the way you see things, the mistakes that you've done. Obviously it might be difficult speaking about it because you don't want to be in here. We're not glorifying it, but it's still your story for people to understand the shit that you were actually involved into, the shit that you're actually doing now, the way you speak, the way you present yourself, that people can change. So when you end up getting a five, what was that feeling when you end up getting put into the secure unit at 12, 13? Oh, wow. I was surprised. The whole kind of dynamics was different. Like again, this was like, it felt like another failure for me again because you always look at adults as being kind, being generous, being your protectors, but I saw a lot of them actually being abusers. For example, as well, we know that sometimes children can be mischievous, but what they actually, how they actually resolve situations as well was by punching you in your stomach, twisting your arm back. So like, you know, it almost seemed like, it was like, say the masochists, like they wanted you to feel pain, just for you to scream and so forth. They were getting like a thrill out of, out of pulling your neck back and so forth and your child, technically your child, your kid. So I then realized that nobody really cares. So I'm not going to care. So I harden to that notion. So that fuelled your fire? 101%. What was the other kids like you were with? Did you see the fear and name? Or was everybody kind of lost little souls? That's how I saw it. I saw that everybody was trying to play their position on the field. Everyone was trying to, you know, somebody, everyone was trying to become someone and they fought by becoming that, you know, but becoming a person was by implementing extreme violence or being aggressive. Because when you're younger, that's what you look to. And I always remember, I always used to see, because it was funny, I used to have this weird relationship with my father when I was younger. I never really understood my father's methods. I used to think he was soft because he was so calm. Like for example, if we had to, if he took me to the school like, so there's an instant. So the parents are there, my father, my parents are there, my mother, my father, and the parents are irated. So sometimes, as you know, because the other parent's son has lost, now the father wants to take it upon himself. Like, why don't me and you have one? And my father was always calm. And I remember once what he said to you on, he said to one gentleman as well. He says, sir, I don't want to fight you. Why do we want to fight for? We know how temperamental children are. They will fight today, but they'll be friends tomorrow. How silly would we be if we went outside now and was rolling up and down? And at that time, I saw it now, I see him as a great diffuser. But at that time, I thought, no, I should be like my other friend's father that just punches people in the mouth and you know, you just resolve situations like that. But now, at this age, no disrespect to my friend, seeing his father now that has gone in and out of prison, got no stable job. You know, the kids are not even respecting him anymore because they're saying that, listen, you're an old guy. We're not listening to you. So now you can see and where that my father's got respect. People still acknowledge my father. My father's almost, he's been sick. He's been ill and he's almost died three times. And so many people's been to his bedside because of the amount of love that he's generated. So it just goes to show. So then I said, I want to implement those steps as well. Just be a nice person. Yeah, the peaceful man's a strong man. The peaceful man's a warrior. But you grew up in an environment where you think people shout and use and tools, shooting, stabbing. You think I want to be like them, not realizing it's the weak man. The angry man's the weak man. The angry ones are soft one because they're battling the bullier. The people who destroy lives and bully lives because they're broken. It's not necessarily the bad people. They just do bad shit because they feel as if it protects them from people seeing right through who they are. And this happens through the whole wide world. They're like, it's fucking mad that people feel a raging anger. It's a weakness that people have and triggers that people are easy manipulated to then push to do bad stuff even though it's just making them worse because the conscious mind is a powerful tool. The brain is such a powerful tool when you do bad shit, no matter how tough we think we are. It'll fucking surprise us in 10, 20, 50 years. It'll throw every emotion that you've blocked and not faced. And then that's when it comes to the head. I had an undercover copper on just before you came but very strong man done his job but blocked all his pain and abuse out as a kid. And then in ages in his 50s they ended up nervous breakdown, ended up in a mental institute, white padded cell because they'd blocked out all his feelings and emotions. And as men, that's why we struggle. We don't speak. We bottle shit out, we pretend. Always say it with the great pretenders. We all act. A gate will act as if we are something. But nobody sees us at night when we're scared, alone, pretending. It's fucking mad. So you're in there, what's the worst thing you've seen while going through the kind of yos? Oh, so yos. I think I wouldn't really... I think later on in years when I can actually describe some of the worst things but I think it was just lots of fights. I think it was just ruthless, like, some people being terrorized throughout their whole sentence. And I just thought that it's not going to be me. And I understood it was... The way I actually describe young offenders, it was like a baby fight club. So a baby fight club in the sense of that, you know, sometimes those that had the duty of care also encouraged you to also resolve situations by extreme violence. So what actually happens is that you become conditioned to that way of thinking. And then you're thinking that it's okay once you're out, somebody says something rude and all I can do is just punch him in his face because you've been conditioned to think that way. Because lots of people pose a question to me, but you know, this is your second time of incarceration, the first time, so you didn't. Clearly, you've not learned. But what they felt to understand as well, that the first time, especially in the early 90s as well, there was no such thing as rehabilitative courses, it was based on do your time, it's like the Victorian era, do your time, and then your back out. And especially being so young, you were conditioned. I remember they used to allow you to go to the gym and have fights and punch-ups. And he used to say, yeah, who do you pour? Even officers were putting their little bets on, oh, who's going to win? So you grew up hardened, you grew up mind conditioned in that sense. Okay, so this is how I'm going to resolve a situation. Yeah, that's child abuse. That's child abuse. That's why the system's fucked. They don't help people. People are straight back in because it's all they know. There's no... A lot of people can't come out and change a prime example, but the majority end up back in, it's over 80%, and that's the sad thing, because like I say, they're not bad, they just do bad shit because it's all they fucking know. Once you actually can get that role model up, that inspiration, you go, if he can change, I can change. And that's what it's all about, it's leaving the footprints for people to then follow and go, I'm going to do the same. There's not enough inspiration for me. So you ended up doing five. What age did you get out? 18. So you done the full five? Is that because of the violence in there? No, it was sensitive. I got convicted at 15. I got convicted at 95, which they gave me a five years, but that was extreme. If you really think about it, considering my age, considering the time, I actually got five. Then I'm taking on consideration the amount of time that I've done, but I scondid. So what happened was, when I was in Stanford, when I was in Stanford House, I went in the secure part at first. I was in the kind of open part of Stanford House, which I then scondid. I was on what people might articulate on the run for about three months, also maybe a few months. I can't really calculate it. During that time, I also committed another offense whilst they were looking for me, which was at the time, I think they call it now, the technical word now, they call it steaming. But at the time, we called it shabby and abbey. So that was a group of kids, you would jump over like a building society, jump over the counters, and stuff as much money down your trousers and so forth as you can, and basically run out. I got also, I got three and a half years to run concurrent with my five years. What was it like coming out? Did you feel you were a man? Did you feel you were getting respect because you had that violence in you? No, it was actually weird because you have to also remember prior before that, I was used to being around my mother, like, you know, mother and father, they sign, you know, they are your guardian. So they take you places. Now they say that I'm actually, I'm actually a young adult. So I have to do it myself, like filling out forms and it was, yeah, so it was strange. It is a massive gulf for a young person and coming out and the world is kind of changed and I just felt, it felt awkward. But the thing that upset me the most was that how I perceive that society doesn't really give you a second chance because what actually happened was which was my trigger point in me continuing or moving in different degrees of dysfunctional behavior was I was applying for bank accounts. So obviously I knew that that was the thing I've never had to now. I've never had a debit card or credit card. So the first time out they basically they basically denied me and I was thinking and I remember the time when I got arrested for the steaming that they believed that I've done so many and I've actually got away with it. So they wanted me to do something called like, they called it clear up. So you just point them in the right direction of like some of the other crimes other the building societies and things that you've done and they can put that down they can mark it down as solve cases but I said no I'm not doing that. So when I came out the backlash of the banks and so forth I wasn't getting no account they were just all denying me so I remember once having a conversation with my father and he was like son just take your time he's got a very soft voice and he was like son take your time in due course I'm thinking I'm not listening to that I'm definitely not listening to that. So then I just continued I just said you know what the battle lines have been drawn this is it I'm going all out. How was that for your mum and dad your dad soft spoken kind of leads by example by his presence not realizing that was a strength but how was that when your dad would come and visit you did you just block all that out where you were letting them down and breaking their heart because nobody else in the family was causing trouble. Yeah especially my mother it's different we can talk about fathers as well and I'm not trying to underestimate the power of the love that a father has for his child but you can we can never imagine from a female's perspective you have a child for nine months you give birth to that child you have the very best intentions for that child you try to provide the best that you can for that child and all that child is doing is causing you heartache and pain so for me definitely that still haunts me because people need to realize I believe women are the centre of the universe the world the universe whatever it is revolves around women they carry a child the way their energy changes the way they can feed the nutrients and stem cells come from the umbilical cord that's fucking mind blowing listen men and women need each other men need to be masculine of course we need to provide and protect but women need to nurture women need to show love and because men are sensitive men don't know how to love I still don't know if I've ever been in love and that's fucked up and I've had my relationships I truly feel fucking love and it's the most purest form of anything on this planet and that's why a woman and a child don't have the purest form of love men we're weird beings we're very I don't know we're pretty fucking pretty easy as well we're pretty fucking we're still confused men I've interviewed so many people nobody knows what the fuck is happening I'm glad that you said that though this is not a religious sermon but I'm glad that you actually mentioned this and you touched upon this because in my chron I actually read it as well it says men were created weak so sometimes we consider strength because of our physical abilities for things but what about mentally what about spiritually so you are correct as well we are we were created weak look when a man gets a flu I think the fucking the world is over do you know what I mean what does that tell you about women they're stronger and Jordan Peterson used to say and I thought it was amazing when he says that Jordan Peterson says the majority of men are in prison the majority of men are homeless working building sites the majority of men are suicidal the majority of men fighting wars what does that tell you about women it means women are smarter they don't fucking do that shit we choose to do it so it tells you that men make bad choices and women make better choices in my opinion because it's a I just think the world is confused I think everybody is angry at each other feminine and masculine men are feminine as well we do need to lead by the front men build the world, women create it so you get out what you're thinking then is it just straight back to business violence so obviously there's a whole different shift so now the whole dynamic is changed so you know when sometimes you know I've listened to some of your podcasters and no disrespect to anybody I'm not here to criticize anyone but you know sometimes they I call them rack and turds skilled storytellers in the sense of that I I stepped back out and then all of a sudden everybody was around me and I was that man it doesn't work like that as you know already I'm good friends with Liu and so forth yeah sure yeah of course definitely 101% and that whole dynamic so their age group do you honestly think that as much as they may have respect for me that I can just come out and just thinking that yeah well you are going to be working for me and this and that it's not going to happen I will end up a victim very quickly so the whole dynamics has changed so what I needed to do was is understand the whole kind of dynamics again okay so what role where's my positioning and then from there so I realized that the groups dynamics have changed now people have got older they accumulate more money so the groups are smaller now the only time that you're in large groups is that you're showing off your wealth so in the sense of that if you're going to the Coliseum if you're going partying and so forth then everyone will meet up people have nice cars jewelry and so forth but usually your core group of the day and the people that you're usually conspiring with are very small groups and basically from there I also understood that dynamics have changed as well like for example it before it was fistfights but now it's a spaghetti western who draws first wins so they're saying that wait there you're bringing your fist to a gunfight they're laughing at you so you need to level up so then I thought okay I'm going to go and get myself one and so that's how things start you're calculated figuring out your move in your position I didn't even see it like that I saw it as survival I thought if you if you snooze you lose it was just like I saw things at the time as chess boxing so what we mean by chess boxing if you look at the position of a chess board as well you will actually see like offensive, defensive so offensive is planned action of attack and defensive is resistance to attack and I had enough of being in a defensive position I wanted to be in an offensive position does that make sense so this is what we said that okay this is what I'm going to do I mean is that when you leveled up then started going to the series stuff getting the shooters and how long were you out for for the five years to the 20 odd years just two years I'm laughing because I just fucked up just just two years what age were you then I was 20 all my kind of criminal activities I was 18, 19, 20 I'm back in prison did anybody ever say to you listen get your shit together at that age you never listen anyway but was there anybody any of your elders, any uncles I've had a lot like my uncle my uncle Ozzy, my uncle Floyd my aunties you know it was there were so many people it's like they've all I've lived with all at one stage in my life I've lived with all my uncles and aunties and so forth even my auntie adrenal that lived in Craydon and I was with I was living in the same room as my cousin Smurf and so forth so growing up there and so everybody played a part in trying to help me and I can't that's one thing that I can't criticize my family and sometimes I feel remorseful as well because I felt that I've taken a lot from my siblings as well because everybody was so focused on me even my cousins as well I have to apologize because everybody was focused on helping me even my uncles and aunties which is very strange like with most people how the world how the world is today it weren't like that in my times it was this it took a village to raise a child even friends and family even friends and family and so forth so how do you think if you grew up in another place do you think you'd have been different or do you think you always had that in you I think I always had that in me I tell you the reasons why my siblings came from the same place they never they've gone through certain trials and tribulations it's how you interpret a situation and it's funny that as well because when I was also studying in prison as well social science do my degree I remember that there was study on regards to two brothers and if my memory says me correctly I think they might have been twins yeah the dad was an alcoholic one became an alcoholic one never touched it because he hated the smell of it I spoke about that last podcast that's so strange so it comes down to how you interpret a situation as well and for me it just always came back to being that victim not allowing that to happen and I just I don't know it's a horrible feeling not being in control being in control in the sense of somebody else is dictating for you so they're saying that we can do we feel that we can do what we want to do to you at any time and there's nobody but there's nobody to help you and you thought that you were safe because you was amongst adults we're letting you know that you're not safe so I said that okay I need to protect myself is that ego or pride? I think at that age at that time I would say it was protection but now at this age of course because we know that being adults and our minds of developers as well there's definitely 101% alternatives as well of resolving situations so the 2 years you were out what were you like then? were you like a loose cannon? yeah very do you think it was only a matter of time before you ended up dead or in prison anyway? 100% and it was kinda sad as well because me and my father had a heart to heart and he said son there was only 2 ways you was gonna go and I said look I'm sorry I'm gonna say something to you and my prayer came correct it was either death or imprisonment and God loved you and gave you imprisonment saved your life? I said God saved my life yeah that's strange so the night it all changed then you've got a shooter and you've blasted 2 guys like what was the thought process? that night was that a lead up to something or was it just instinct? now it's leading up we need to be honest here as well see one thing that I've always learned and I've been taught as well we speak the truth even if it's against ourselves as well we were predators so obviously the way that we looked at things as well why would society care for when they're also involved in what we're involved in so it doesn't matter we're not hurt in civilians this is what we've all signed up to this is an occupational hazard so the way that when I got the phone call and I said that these individuals were dealing with illegal activity allegedly my obviously my protocol was we're going to go and obtain what they have and they can't say nothing about it because they're also involved in what we're involved in but then I don't know it's this kind of warped understanding that we also have and one of the I know this might be alarming to the public as well what I'm going to say next we had a system in place as well that if you show you're going to use it there's no point in talking about something and waving it around if you're not going to use it so that's what I basically done I produced the firearm and I shot them both and I thank God that they survived but because of the severity basically of the shooting I was given I know we're going to get to that but there was a lot of other it weren't planned properly because we weren't expecting the backlash in that sense again is what I said to you you know criminal against criminal you expect a certain code of conduct you know you expect there's going to be maybe a swift repercussion but not actually as what we say become the stall pigeon or you know talk to the boys in blue but the whole dynamics has society and times have changed as well and people don't really and then there was other aspects as well that other innocent people were getting actually dragged into it so eventually I handed myself in after a few days I handed myself in and then from there I was given a discretionary life sentence it seems a bit harsh or too attempt but again the system is but fucked so that night you're saying if you've got a gun you've got to use it basically you're a pussy did you feel that pressure straight away if everything that you've done in your life doesn't really mean anything because people then think I'm a coward and then you feel that emotion you felt at 10 years old so you had to use it no I was I'm going to be honest with you I'm going to speak the truth here I would be sensitized I didn't really care so it was one of those we say to ourselves already you see how the human mind works as well it it works by justification we justify things so it makes it easy for us for example as well they are criminals they also do bad things so who cares in our community you need a you need a villain and you need a hero I don't mind being that villain because I don't care because these people are also up to no good so that's how we condition our minds in doing the things that we do so once you've done that you can then go and have a burger and chips and so forth and you feel no way it's different it's different if a civilian gets hit or innocent person or child gets hit and so forth then obviously but when it's somebody that has signed up what you claim to sign up but not understanding the ramifications that affect that you're going to have not only on that victim but their families they're also just trying to survive in this concrete jungle as well they're right to even try to take that person's life because you're thinking that they're doing something wrong and even if they're doing something wrong does it justify the level of violence the suppression oppression and depression that one's implementing so yeah it's like a soldier going to war killing people there's women, children men getting killed listen there's soldiers there shouldn't be wars all war is murder in my eyes but it's just the way the world works there's soldiers and that's just the way whoever controls it can manipulate the masses to then go and do something do you feel as if that was your mindset that it was your duty because it's criminal v criminal everybody signed up for that so it made it easier yeah definitely and we're fledgling we're fledgling so what we're we're trying to make our mark in the world as well you know let's be honest here because I'm not going to hear spin you a toe as well to say that I was I was this multi-millionaire I was doing this, no how could I be when I was 18 years of age you're the start enough let's be honest but we done well considering our age group and what we were doing but we were still young there was much established of a gentleman at the time but people still respected and especially the particular estate and ones were thrown in this hundreds of estates and the kind of connecting the dots and so forth but yeah we were young sometimes as well being so young you have that high levels of testosterone you you have this inflated protective layer on it's not a true reflection because you're young you don't really think you're more reactive and you don't understand fully repercussions what gun was that I think it was a 357 if I can if my memory serves me correctly what was it feeling like after you shot two people again were you just numb to it just one of those things are we getting a burger and chips and just shot off it is because when you lived a particular lifestyle remember I was out for two years so when you're living a particular lifestyle and you become accustomed to a certain way of life as well you get desensitized you understand yourself and there was a few things there was also a young lady she was no way connected going to say this again but she was also taken into the police station as well and I must admit though I have to congratulate her as well because she stood firm in that sense but they were threatening her because she's got a child um then I was the person that I was with I was deceived by that person as well and yeah would say that he went into things as well which see this is the thing that a lot of young people have to also understand as well that sometimes the person that you think is your friend and you know you may throw yourself in front of a bullet for might not necessarily be your friend when that's what some people say when situations intensify so I think this is the thing for young people to also reflect on as well and it goes to show again women are stronger than men that women never broke she was probably saying you're going to prison never broke but yeah the fucking the man who you're standing next to who you take a bullet for who you potentially try to kill people for his asses went no loyalty in that game especially from men and that's why I always say women are stronger because they see the world differently we fill a shit great pretenders top-push this mad so you hand yourself in when did you realise they weren't dead so you must be thinking okay 10 stretch at most 12 double attempt murder yeah um do you know in our minds in our primitive way of thinking as well I was thinking of okay and I'm going to get a sentence but I knew in those times a gun related murder was like something like 20 years I'm saying that I've not killed the individuals is you know with my arrogance as well I'm thinking you cares they're criminals as well they're probably not going to say anything if anything I'll probably get a 7 or 8 and then I'm back then I'm going to do exactly what I was doing from before with more respect yeah but even then I felt that I had that respect already so I weren't really bothered about that it was just about at the end of the day you have to you have to look at your aims and objective so what is your aims and objective of doing this in the first place and with a lot of us we came to the conclusion is to make money so unfortunately by any means necessary but it was actually to make money so that was always the objective and we should never try to stray away from that objective so now that I'm reflecting I'm looking back and I'm saying that okay so what is okay so I'm going to spend some time of incarceration at least I've kept my dignity and integrity and then I'm going to go back out and I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing so on the night of that was it to go and shoot two people kill two people kill one person shoot one person what was there just to obtain what they what we were told that they had that's all that's all it was and it got out of hand it's not even that I think they underestimated us because we were young so if you have like it's like me as well you can't underestimate the young as well sometimes you're looking at a young man he's there he's telling you I know what you have and you're looking at thinking 18 90 like 19 20 like you know who I am I think back then that was kind of accepted nowadays I'm more fearful of the young because they're fucking ruthless you're not talking 1920 you're talking 14 15 16 and that's scary there's no respect there's no loyalty for the elders there's nothing so now it's changed now the ones who are you you're most fearful of as the young ones who've got the belly on and just fucking waiting 15 16 it's crazy it's funny that you mentioned that as well because I've said this before as well but there was an incident so I was in a obviously when I was released first I had to go to AP so I'm in this particular area won't name it I was in this particular area and I'm walking down the road and there's a group of kids there's so many of them and they're blocking the road now in my times as well yes we were moving in different degrees of dysfunctional behaviour but we had respect for our elders not like this though blocking the roads people were just trying to and so I'm assessing all this situation I know these kids are not going to move out the way so I said let me give ground as a grown up I'm old enough to be there for over so let me try to navigate myself make myself small and I'm trying to go you know in between trying to make myself small now one of them who I identified he was the biggest one who I identified as the leader he came very close to me almost touching me now I knew then I can understand that first they're trying to mark their territory I understand that I've lived a particular lifestyle but what came next as well this was provocation so what he wanted me to do now was to say something they all would have set upon me so I can tell that they were carrying obviously we can observe this they might have had a Rambo knives and so forth after I just shook to my head and you know what was so sad to me I was kind of heartbreaking as well that these young people don't even know that they would have thrown away their lives it's right on a high road and everything so in case I was foolish enough to say something of course I would have been a victim but I'm saying that their lives would have been destroyed and their families lives would have been destroyed as well because now they're in prison doing a life sentence for what because a man was just trying to mind his own business going to see his wife and he was preventing him from actually doing this now the thing was as well what was so quite funny as well that sometimes my brothers that are in incarceration need to understand as well is that they sometimes live in a time machine so when I went back to my deca and I was actually conversing with them I told them the story they said oh they didn't know who you was you would have probably beaten up all of them I said I'm not Superman I said everything has changed the whole dynamics and you don't need to understand this because you'll become a victim very fast outside so this is so I totally understand what you're saying like you said life is a game of chess things change all the time every 5 years 10 years things do change you've got to kind of go with the times if you don't you're dead so you've got to kind of be sensible to it there's not a lot of people do stay open minded to a change 11, 40, 50 years ago how long was your court case I pleaded guilty you still got fucking over 23 what were you getting if you didn't so I got no this is what actually happened I got this was a new thing so remember before when in America they had 3 strikes and you're out England tried to do 2 strikes and you're out so before IPP there was a thing called discretionary life sentence so due to the severity of your crime I got a discretionary which to be fair shouldn't have happened and I told you the reasons why it shouldn't have happened from what I've got informed about was that it came about in I think it was 97 97 now what they said was that made me applicable for this was because of what I done when I was a minor so I was convicted in 95 so they used that conviction of 95 and the crime that I committed that allowed me to get the discretionary life sentence which was a 7 year tariff which I ended up doing 3 times that amount even though they say that with a discretionary life sentence it really means on the computer that you're doing 99 years but at that time I had no understanding I was totally oblivious to what was going on I was just thinking yeah 7 and that was it I didn't understand it didn't compute in my mind that I'm actually going to be in there for a very long time and some of the some of the reasons sometimes I sit back and I reflect and I realized why I got that because there were people that were shooting off the police and so forth and they didn't even get a discretionary life sentence and I got a discretionary life sentence and I'm thinking why is this all happening and it started to make sense what I didn't know at the time as well at that time there was a lot of black and black shootings as well and Trident was getting involved I know that I was flagged up as an individual as well that they believed that I've done a string of shootings and got away with it so there was a lot of other factors that were working behind the scenes against me which when you're young again naive you're just not seen it that way when others are observing you your name is coming up all the time so yeah why did you plead to her again the young the young lady there was other factors as well obviously the individual and I just thought you know what now looking back I'm thinking but I felt that she could have got dragged into it I weren't romantically involved with her she was older than me it was a friend's sister and with us as well we've always had if you speak to Lou as well we've always had Patmore is different we're like a family in Patmore and we have respect and we accept responsibility and to be fair I put my hands up because it weren't supposed to go the way it went as well you need to also understand that if you make a mistake you need to do that mistake and you need to correct that mistake and that's how we grew up especially on Patmore as well if you make that mistake you're going to have to do with that mistake you're going to have to rectify that mistake so you took responsibility you're thinking you're only going to do a seven yeah I thought I was only going to do yeah because I found out eventually I didn't know at the time there was one of the gents who was fighting for his life so it was close they at one stage were going to turn off the machine I didn't know this what was going on but he pulled through and I thank God for this as well what would you have got then if he died you'd still be in yeah I know at that time a gun related murder was 20 years but knowing I would have probably still wouldn't be in yes yeah see at that time though if they died would you have cared again we speak the truth even if it's against ourselves not really I was I was in such a bad place and so this is the reasons why that I'm a person that I usually like to be in the background even taking this kind of interviews as well and being conversing with so many people because I feel that we're at a bad place as a society now and as what you said we need sometimes not only real men but you know just real people we need that community feel again we need people to stand up and be counted and I just feel that I also have those tools and I feel that I could also make a difference and a change there's many great men that I left when I was in incarceration as well that could be professors that could be scientists but they just not given a chance in society they are lepers of society they're ostracized from society and I just want to prove to you know the general public as well that look I've made changes and there's so many other people that I've made changes in their lives please give us a chance what prison did you go to? I've been all over what was the first one? so initially so I was on Vermont I started as a young offender so back in young offenders but this time it was different because at that time as well they were there was a lot of you know there was a lot of shootings we're talking about the early 2000s and late 90s there was a lot of string of shootings and so forth so when I was in when I was incarcerated then I had nine cousins that was also incarcerated and they had their co-defendants so again I still didn't take the magnitude of it it was all just one big party so we was just out of control we weren't listening to nobody I used to say this to the officers and I apologize to them as well because I gave them I gave them murders when I first came in I just didn't care I was thinking that way nobody told me anything when I was actually outside you're definitely not going to tell me anything now that I'm in prison and where that I also prior before that my first sentence an officer because I was always fighting as well he saw potential so he said that I should join a boxing club so when I was out for those two years I was actually boxing I was representing my club, Ellsworth so I traveled up and down the country I went on the Channel Islands I beat the number one in the Channel Islands I boxed everywhere so I was quite handy with my fist as well so when I went back in obviously it was like Charles played for me so eventually they had enough there was a riot there was a riot on the other side which one of my cousins was involved because I had nine cousins four of them had the same surname as me so how they justified moving me as well is because they said the tornado team that they heard they said let's get Patterson but what Patterson there was lots of us so what one are you talking we're referring to so then they moved me to Chanceford so they started me up at 20 I then moved to Chanceford whilst I was in Chanceford they then put me onto the young offender side but I got like a hero's welcome so they're thinking this kid's got to be a problem so they moved me to the adults now you need to understand the whole kind of dynamics of the prison system at that time especially when I first I saw the dynamics was a bit different before what they used to have what I saw they usually have a person controlling the wing so normally in those times it'll probably be a big white guy pushing a lot of weights and he would kind of put people in order and the officers will turn a blind eye to what he was basically doing but it'll keep people in line so if somebody needed to be just spoken to so when I went onto the wing I remember this gentleman he approached me and he's big and he said this is not something like this is not young offenders boy now I'm not saying he's racist but to call a black person a boy and especially there's historical content to this and he's underestimating me again just like so many people have because I'm young and then unfortunate for him it didn't really work out in the way that he thought it was going to work out remember I come from a boxing background so then now the whole dynamics have changed and then I've started to notice that even throughout the prison system the whole dynamics are changing because my generation is coming in they're young, they're unruly we don't care whether you call yourself an old villain and so forth, yeah okay you've got guys that can do this you've got 50 guys outside that will do that as well so what are you going to do and so then the whole dynamic shift now the now the prison systems in loggerheads don't know what to do so what actually happened was in my roman time I was moved so many times I went to Belmarsh about three times Wonsworth about twice Scrubs about three times all at Penteville about two times they just kept on moving me sometimes at courts as well then a court is saying that I said how come I'm not going back on the van to go back to that prison and they're basically saying that that prison doesn't want you you need to go somewhere else, we don't know where to put you everyone's saying no so I just kept on like moving until I was actually convicted I kept on moving and that was literally it until and it was always the same um, fights fights, fights, so on officers fights, so on officers seg had escape attempt all bellies what was the escape attempt like so what actually happened was I had another case so as you know already I was convicted for the double shooting but I also had a bank robbery so I had to go court for that but this time I realized that there went a lot of security and me and my other co-defendant from that one of my co-defendants have already been convicted for it so we decided I didn't know that my parent my mother was upstairs and his mother was upstairs we didn't know, we thought that because it was an awkward day so we thought that this is the best time so they didn't have like the perspective or nothing and we just jumped over and then we ran through but they all seemed to focus on me and it was like because there were somebody people that were jumping on top of me and suffocating me and so forth my friend actually, he could have escaped it was a real um, lower and hardy moment but like, he turned back and helped me and so now I'm angry, I've got all cuts like on my neck and so I decided to throw punches now, like I'm angry like so then now it's doing to me now you need to run, so I'm thinking okay I remember there was another gentleman that escaped from the old Baileys by jumping out the window I'm going to do the same thing so I ran into the shroom and there was all these police of drinking their tea and coffee they just all pounced on me even then, like calm, I'm still struggling I'm like you know, I'm still trying to fight I'll never forget my friend as well he's like, it's over D it's over and I'm like it's never over you know like I swear to you I was like, I was like brave it was just like freedom you know, so anyway they kind of hooked tied me and this carried me, it was so humiliating at the time I thought it was a badge of honor, it was just embarrassing they all hooked tied and they carried me like that and one, I think one jailer he was so he was so taken back by the ferocity and everything he said, I quit he just went like and then, yeah, it was a life of in the E-Man suit and everything else and it was this so yeah, I got another I got seven years to rank on current with my sentence and yeah but when you add it all up, the ones you did get away with, the robberies, the shootings even on your mind, even though I'm sitting here I'm thinking that's a bit harsh but when you add it all up you're probably lucky as well you know what I mean so you can look at it and that side and go do you know what I fucking did deserve it I was a mad man, if I wasn't shooting I got for them, I'm gonna kill someone and then that, there's no going back from that because that does something to your psyche but what's it justice and a lot of people don't understand this, a lot of people glorify because even before as well people say, yeah, I like your real stuff but they don't know behind the scenes what was actually happening to me there was times outside as well that you start not to trust anybody outside to have extreme paranoia in the sense of, can I really trust this person then I would have times where I was so depressed where I'll just walk and it was crazy for me, like for me to be seen walking outside at any time I could like you crazy and the nightmares it was really bad I'm talking about like I would have some severe nightmares where I'll wake up and I'm crying, I'm crying because I don't want to go back to sleep I don't know what the next stream is going to be like and I think a lot of people don't understand this I was actually being tortured it was like torment for me to close my eyes and the way this thing was I'm going to be honest with you when I was in the police saw and I knew I weren't going home and you know that part of my life that chapter has been closed I slept like a baby it was weird on a leaf were you ever suicide though? I think I don't know I have that God forbid it, because we never know when the mind can turn so I'm not trying to I just don't know I have that tenaciousness I don't know what's them a lot of pride yeah, I think it's from again, yeah I just but you never know God forbid it and I thank God that he's kept me up till now because I know how easy the mind is and especially when we go further into our conversation and we talk about solitary confinement and so forth and I spent seven years in solitary so it does something to the mind so I understand how easy it is for the mind too so I never I will never mock anybody that suffers with mental health issues because I know how easy it is to switch When did you start kind of questioning the things that you've done it's to justify everything you've done it's bad man killing bad man shooting bad man they abuse me and beat me when I was a kid and they made things worse look, we can all blame obviously there's a time when you just take responsibility and go, wait a minute was there a moment, how far into your sentence and solitary confinement that you've done and all the the billiard becoming the billiard you were a billiard to then being fucking the billiard everything's a shift but when was there ever a little moment when you started going what the fuck am I doing yeah so it comes a bit later so we'll talk further about the solitary confinement side of things yeah how was that how seven years in a whole that's a long time but you must have been a loose cannon I would have loved to have seen you or I wouldn't have known but I'd love to have seen your mannerisms the way you speak, the way you talk the way you presented yourself 20 years ago you really judge the shift of momentum and the shift in life the transition do you know what I mean, it's interesting because I know you're sitting there, I can see it I can see you were a fucking nutcase I can see that you had that madness we can change your character you can change your character you've got to change your whole personality so even though you're acting like this and speaking quite articulate and seeing the world differently the people who you grew up with will think he's lost they'll think you're fucking Jotun because they know you're a psycho this could be another act, do you know what I mean you're in the house at night sharpening up your tools fucking ready to go for round 2 and people will be saying I told you so because that's what it is it's psychotic, men are psychotic so no matter you're sitting here and I can understand it, it's an amazing thing and we can be very as human beings as well, we can let's get a change and we can be very pessimistic so yeah I've had to explore a lot of painful painful experiences in my life as well but I think the first, the transition is what you were talking about was before I went into solitary confinement so when I was in World Mud Scrubs there was a governor actually her name was Miss Actor and she found me amusing because they knew that I'm always having fights and sometimes but they knew I went a troublesome person I was still polite I said please I said thank you but it's just that if somebody triggers me it was always that so she found me quite amusing so she would say yeah Mr Paterson are you going to behave and there was two things so there was a gentleman would they say Saf he was a brother of mine and I used to love his character it was just the way that he was for example one of the biggest issues in prison is somebody pushes in in the queue I was just going to a gentleman pushed in and I was just going to become very very aggressive and he would say things like brother just take it easy why can't we learn to disagree about being violently disagreeable and he would say other things such as all it shows is this man's more hungry than us let him eat he's not going to lose out and he was such a simplistic way and it was just like he was liked by everybody it didn't matter whether he was Muslim non Muslim everybody had that kind of level of respect for him and he was such a nice person to be around so that was kind of like the trigger that was like the spark and I was thinking you know there's other ways of communicating with people without going into extreme violence but also remember this as well that sometimes uneducated people do uneducated things so what actually happened is again a story of my life there was this particular gym officer he took a dislike into me but I have to be honest I took a dislike into him so they came up with an opportunity I used to love doing my workouts because in those times they still allowed you to have like boxing mits and gloves and so forth and there was one particular officer he was a CM I liked him Mr. Jarvis he was a 50 man kumite so he wanted someone to spar with and he would call me and really say he was so funny he would say it's the only time you can hit a screw so you don't always have to put in extra power but no but he was good he was actually good as well he can handle himself if I'm not careful he could knock me out some screws are tough man we have to remember this no matter what your views are or opinion is a man is a man so what actually happened to us I know I'm sorry lads but this gym officer was and then unfortunate for him then after that they took the pads and saying no you're training them up too much then after that I was taken to the SEG obviously conflict of interest and so forth during that time Miss Ahtar the governor told me no you know because there was a lot of officers that didn't hire that officer he was considered to be a bully so they said ok he has to stay in the SEG but he can go education from the SEG what did you do to him we can just put it this way I used some of my boxing skills it's a bunch of cockout and basically and yeah but it was severe I think it could have been but then I was held back at the time I was held back by a family friend and some other residents after they saw the severity of how it could have went you could have carried them I wouldn't we don't know it was it was getting to a stage where that because I felt that it was just how he was towards me he underestimated me I was young at the time remember I used to box like middle so 69 kilograms so he's looking at me he's probably thinking that yes I can handle this and so I was just angry anger and aggression I was taken to the SEG they agreed that I can go education and then that's when I met the wonderful Angela she was the head of the education department she said I can see you're highly intelligent but you're talking in all these slangs and so forth and when you're dealing with professional people you need to know how to educate yourself in a better light so what she would actually do was go through the dictionary with me I had to learn a word she would also allow me to conquer my fears by giving presentations on different subject matters and then from there I became a teacher's assistant and so forth but at the time there was the gym officers obviously some of these colleagues that were still unhappy why is he here he just assaulted one of us so on a visit I had a friend come and see me I had an hours visit they're telling me that my visit has been terminated so unfortunately I think you know what happens next I waited, I thought my friend was gone and then I said to him what did you say and because he was so big and it was like it's not funny but it was so comical on what happened I obviously I punched him I turned around now to face the others because I know they're going to come and steam me now because I've put my hand, I thought he was gone he was out the way but it was the way that he kind of like it was momentum like we know as boxers that when you have a good punch and you connect something that you just know the person's out he's not recovering from that and it was he was out but instead of him going back he dropped on my back while I was facing the rest of his colleagues so I'm trapped underneath and that's where everybody so when they looked on the camera they were all laughing like it was a funny moment he was sleeping on me he was on my back and obviously they took me from the visits they dragged me in there and then obviously you know their methods in those times were they give you a spanking so I accepted that there were going to be repercussions as well so after that I was then moved around and the same the same old things going on in all different prisons I'm being accused of I'm being accused of all these different types of activities that are going on and then I started to become closer to my faith and then that's where more problems started to increase as soon as I started to practice more, started to pray it started to become I'm a part of the Muslim boy gang I'm one of the leaders and then that's when it became very difficult for me difficult difficult in the sense of that every so often they would just come for me so I'll be placed in the SEG I'll be moved from prison to prison and there will be no explanations to me except for SIRs the security incident reports basically saying that we have intel and that's what it took spending on mumps in the SEG um no valid reason but allegedly what we can't tell you that information okay can I speak to somebody that can oh we'll get back to you so eventually I um the incident started so when I was in the last SIRS so one of the last SIRS instances were I was in Dove Gate, I've been in Dove Gate twice so the first time I went to Dove Gate there was an there was an officer, he was an operations manager he had a problem obviously we usually use a particular room to pray in for our Juma service our Friday service he said that we couldn't use it so I just asked like any civilized person that would okay what are the reasons, is there different alternatives? he just said no I'm telling you and I don't care that type of attitude and I'm saying this is faith though I have an entire woman at least give us another room or different alternative and then he said so what are you going to do about it and that was my trigger but then it's like snakes and ladders I went back, I just went back to that dark place again I just I just had tunnel vision and I just saw him and so didn't work out well for him but I'm so at the time I was angry with the brothers at the time that was around me but I'm thankful to them now because I understood that at the time when the incident was happening the officers were unaware of what was going on so there was no bell, there was no nothing and I was hitting him for a while and so you can imagine and so they had to drag me off and then eventually and so what happened was they were so upset because obviously the police are involved now it's a police matter it's serious but how it never manifest itself now what happened this was so strange I accept full responsibility I understand this well if you say that you work for an organization and you play by those rules then you're supposed to play by those rules what actually happened was I was in front of having an adjudication so they were telling me on regard to the matter of when the police are going to get involved and so forth then IMB, Independent Hunting Board so this is a civilian that is there I'm talking to them like I'm talking to you now so my back is against the door I didn't see I didn't know and I just got all punches in my face and everything all the officers started to lay into me kicking me on the floor obviously they used to do a system as well they cut your clothes strip cell cut your clothes they kind of you know how they do it when they fold you up and then one at the end he kind of sits on you and they wait and they say go go go go everyone runs and they slam the door and I was a mess so what happened was now when the police came and they saw the condition of me and so forth how can they continue with the charges and looking at the state of me am I going to press charges even though we don't do that so they dropped the case but what they done was they sent me to dispersal and that was my first time and that was in 2005 what was dispersal like oh I'm surprised they never sent you to Broadmoor could that have been a possibility we're going to go into that as well because they did on many occasions they tried to get a little psychiatrist yeah because beating up one screw it happens somebody getting fucking weighed somebody had enough had that bad day found out their messages up to something they crack up but it seemed to have been consistent with you I'm surprised they even let you out without having your fucking shackles on nah you're gonna see there's more to come believe me James the system where it finished is what they said as well is when you least expect it which is understandable because if you're fucking beating them down it's like a little firm it's like the coppers they stand together no matter how they're trying to do good or wrong they will stand together yeah and I learned a very very hard lesson and you're gonna find out soon so yeah so I went to the Spurs I went to the Spurs when I saw that the whole dynamics was different now this was a whole different calibre of individuals I saw it like these were these were gentlemen's these were men that were so disconnected from society now that it seemed like kind of mad max it was like a dystopia it was like a gladiatorial contest survival of the fittest it was crazy like one of the first things that I identified when I went on to the wing in high security is what when somebody will come out the kitchen with a pot in their hands everybody will be moving sideways will be observing and I'll be the stand then a person won't tap me and say like we don't know where that's going and sometimes nine times out of ten is just somebody just cooking their food and just but sometimes it could be used as ghee I think that's one of the most not it was oil of course remember this in the Spurs was where you can cook food so you had oil or ghee butter so it's tremendous I think that's probably some of the worst instance that I've ever seen when somebody pause when you leave it to bubble up for such a long period of time and it goes actually black and then somebody pause over a person it's horrific when you hear them scream and so forth this male so but what was actually happening is I had a good solicitor and it was Tracy Tracy Greaves I thank her as well and then eventually I had another solicitor her name's Milton thank you but at the time they contested it so what they said is that if this man now has found not guilty for this assault on this office so it's being thrown out what is he basically doing in high security which made sense because the whole reason why I was there because I'm not a cat yet yes there was when I was in Belmash I was put as a potential cat A but then they removed me from that so I was a B cat technically so why can't I go to a B establishment so what they done was which was a lot but it didn't really work out well for me because I'm going to tell you in a second is that I said okay then they sent me to if my memory serves me correctly I went to God Tree so when I was in when I was in God Tree it was there was a lot of tension at that time as well as we know already that there was a lot of things that was actually happening outside with people saying that with Islam and there was a lot of Islamophobic I will say rhetoric in prison as well a lot of these guys felt that well we're going to tarnish you all with the same brush so when I went to God Tree as well I was hearing things like and remember my sense of social injustices like three Muslims in a cell and a guy comes in he slaps all of them in their faces and says go back to where you come from they're born over here I'm thinking really so when I have arrived I said who tell me who it is so then they pointed me out to this particular individual I went up there this man to man I said okay gladiatorial contest you don't like my faith and so forth you want to do some type of crusade I don't know what you're thinking I don't know who you are I don't really care about this I'm just looking at you as a shallow man so we're going to resolve it like men so when I enter this gentleman's arm I was expecting I was expecting us to go obviously to engage but he didn't and I actually saw I looked in his eyes and I saw that he was scared and then he tried to make excuses but now I felt away I felt that I'm not really a bully one thing that I was taught and even my faith teaches me as well that if somebody always give a man a doorway to say face don't pursue it don't press it so he said he didn't want nothing so we kind of shook hands like a gentleman's agreement I left now the most embarrassing moment was for me now I'm on the toilet I'm in my soul the door flies open it's the mufties so what we say mufties is officers that are wearing PPE kits so they have the shields, the helmets they basically came in on me I'm there on the toilet I said I'm on the toilet they said you could finish off when you go down the seg that's what they said to me so I'm taking to the I'm taking to the seg and then they basically they basically saying that I've been bullying I've been forcing people to pray they were saying all this kind of rhetoric which weren't true and then I said I'm back at whitemore what a short trip I think I spent less than six months I was there a lot of people don't know but it is the muslim boys who run the prisons now it is the muslims who've got a strong brotherhood where a lot of them are calling the shots from the way it used to be it's changed, why did you choose Islam? I embraced Islam when I was 16 I was always yeah, I was always an inquisitive person because I come from a very you could say a very religious family for example my grandmother from my father's side she was a catholic my grandfather used to be a catholic I came at Jehovah my grandparents from my mother's side the Church of England I used to be an auto boy I read passages in the Bible Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy so I was always inquisitive but there were questions that I used to pose as well and do you know, especially in my times I think I might be slightly older than you where they used to say that children are supposed to be seen but not heard so it was never convincing because I was always a kid that asked many questions even when I used to travel with any of my relations I would just constantly ask them oh so what about this, why is this and it was funny my friends who introduced me to it at the time they called him Jamman we was like to the smallest guys and he would mention Islam but in his version it didn't like he didn't really look deeply into it no disrespect to him he didn't really know too much about his faith but it made the little bits that he did say made sense to me if that makes sense and I said let's give me something to read so he was just like because I think for him it was a different experience you know, like growing up he's like, like with us we would have to go like I have a Sunday school my father was a 12th tribe so you know it's different but my father never imposed this belief system on us so then I embraced and that's what I said to a lot of people I didn't do this because I was trying to be accepted or jumping a lot of people but then they said that so what happened then if you found that utopia then why did you cause a dystopia we don't understand it like what's going on and I said that but it was different there was a different dynamics there because I felt that especially as an Caribbean as well that we were socially excluded so a lot of in those times as well a lot of it was based on culture rather than the teachings Islamic teachings itself so you would have like you know, Asians stuck with Asians Africans stuck with Africans and it was just like the caribbeans were at the bottom as I felt even if a white person embraced Islam they would be in front of us it was just like this kind of car system it was very weird and I said that that's not the teachings that I read about this is not what my understanding is going into a mosque and people don't want to pray shoulder to shoulder to you it's like you're a leper or something like I've got a disease or something so I was very disheartened especially being the age that I am as well I'm just thinking being 18 coming out thinking the world and then I just thought you know what, forget them I still believe in my belief system but I'm just going to do what I'm doing so taking it back so people say that it weren't that I can tell you this personally because I've experienced the whole change within the high security state at first as what I said it was like a mad max there was a lot of bullying we need to be honest here, let's speak the truth it was such there was so severe bullying that we're talking about there was guys that had to tell their mothers to bring in drugs for them we as Muslims as well as those that were practising saying that you can't do this it doesn't care what colour or nationality away he's from because this little white kid's from the country and he hasn't got nobody to defend him it's not going to work over him it's not going to happen so we didn't even, you can't compel somebody to the faith so what some brothers started to do as well is saying that yeah well this person's under my protection what are you going to do now and then that's how it started but the funny thing what a lot of people don't understand about this conflict as well there was always skirmishes but the thing that actually triggered all this escalation of violence what I would call those that had kind of EDL sentiments compared to Islam it started with two non-Muslims that's what people don't understand that's why that sometimes I laugh to myself as well it started with two non-Muslims that's how it started it started with two non-Muslims having a fight and one group of individuals decided that wait there their friend is not getting the better of this other person even though he was much bigger and stronger and he was trained in boxing so we're going to rush him and a Muslim saying you're not going to do that and he defended that person by then they sent letters to each other they called it kites sorry they called it kites sending it to different wings saying that go to the gym at this particular day and then to attack that Muslim and then not knowing that that day there was a lot of Muslims in the gym then obviously they came on stock the 10 or 9 of them that went in there looking to hurt that Muslim then by them being taken to the SIG and the officers sending them to Franklin now I'm not going to blame a lot of these the guys that were in Franklin they only went by what they got told so as soon as they went to Franklin said that yeah the Muslims attacking white guys up there and beating up white guys then obviously anyone's going to it's close to heart so they said oh so that's what they're doing so what did they do in Franklin let's speak the truth I'll speak the truth then they hurt the Muslims that was in there they beat them up the Muslims that was in Franklin so what happened was after that it spreaded across the whole high security estate that okay Franklin has just beaten up all the brothers so what the brothers done from all different dispersals put in applications to go to Franklin so now some brothers are getting shipped out there then there was a situation where that we knew that because people are saying that the Muslims are running the prison system but we have so many elements against us for example as well let's be honest people tend to gravitate to their own so the officers more can identify with those gentlemen than they can with us so sometimes you would see there's metal detectors and things such as this and you're seeing guys that are coming off the landing with blades like this and you know that an officer felt that so he allowed that to happen then this person gets disarmed and gets stabbed and then that person I'm not saying that every single Muslim was a victim or he was innocent of course there's people that look I've watched podcasts where that individuals have owned up to it that I was only pretending to be a Muslim until I was outside and then I came out and it was also we know there's pretenders there's masquerades but that's human being to you but sometimes when people have to also understand it done a lot as well that people are talking about okay I'll give you an example they said to me that you're preventing people from listening to music that's incorrect because my family was in a famous group my uncles there was eruptions if you can remember that scene I can't stand the rain that's my family my father was in a my father was in a sound clash called Young Lion so music's always been a part of my life it's not that but one thing that I was taught by old school guys it didn't matter what color you was when I went into the dispersal system this is what they said to me it don't care how tough you are they'll put you under manners they said this after 10 o'clock the sound volume goes low so everybody it's a culture it weren't that we just came and we tried to implement something everybody knew so if you're gonna put your headphones in listen to your music but after 10 o'clock this was the ruling in any dispersal you can talk to anyone after about 10 o'clock or so if the sound goes down or somebody will come up and have a word with you it don't matter who you are I've seen the rise and fall of so many people not one man is tough enough to say that well he stands alone and he can tell anybody people like to lie as well in the sense of they'll make it out like yeah nobody told me anything anyone can get disciplined in dispersal it doesn't matter who you are so um so yeah so these were the these were the things that were happening and obviously it escalated to such a degree with that let's fast forward it after drama service a gentleman got his throat cut they said it was me but we need to take it back a bit so two weeks prior before this a few officers got injured they said um I was a part of it yes I will admit that I protested because what they were doing is they were restraining another resident I didn't like the method of what they were doing it was going to be a George Floyd moment where that they had he their knees to his back they were pulling like he was choking in court the officer said I must admit this what the officer said he was choking so they asked him why didn't you release his neck but I went holding his neck so you agree with Mr Patterson he was and he said yes I was actually exonerated from that case so they said I came along and injured this particular officer that got injured he was actually fired from the prison service this is what a lot of people don't understand he was fired and some of these cronies were fired as well they were fired he's suing the prison service I know we can't mention names for legal reasons and so forth but you can do your research he was fired so you can imagine for another you know somebody represents the prison system to be fired you know that he had to be doing some dark deeds he had to be doing some seriously dark deeds because they don't normally do that they cover up everything so um I went down to the SEG now you know especially in high securities conflict of interest especially when police were involved you get shipped out straight away you stay in the SEG for many months and they will move you to another SEG to another dispersal it was very strange after about two weeks I was back on the wing do you know what everybody said to me they're coming for you and I'm like no no they probably know like he's a liar and so forth because everybody knew he was corrupted they had a whistleblower officers actually threw him under the butt like they said he's a horrible person women said we didn't feel safe around him from their own colleagues they were like something's gonna happen and I was like no no no no I'm like even doubting it as well I'm thinking stay positive why is everyone so pessimistic now it made sense this person throw gets caught I'm next to the little mom they've come for me but now it looks bad because when they came for me I'm thankful to the brothers they stood as like a protection in front of me and saying why are you grabbing him for what is he done I didn't want to get nobody in trouble so I just said that you know what just let them take me so that's okay I'm in the SEG I can easily exonerate myself I've got witnesses that's it I'm hearing so many doors being opened and closed I'm thinking what's going on they filled the whole SEG up with with the Muslims the whole SEG was filled and then the whole the hospital side was filled and then all the buses came and they started to move people now the bus is not coming for me and I'm thinking why they said you've been promoted I looked and I said why first and foremost they said you're an ACAT we just got approved by the home office I thought already you know how long that takes remember I was potential CAA before so I know how long it takes they said you should have never been a BCAT then they said oh you've been promoted I said okay what CSC I'm thinking what is that CSC I've never heard of that what are you talking about close supervision center so they're saying that to somebody the only way that was described to me you know that guy Charles Bronson what them and his on that's crazy only like less than 1% of the prison population would ever face that that's like extreme isolation and I'm thinking nah I can't be I have to be assessed so obviously they assessed me there I was in the SEG for about 7 and a half months and then they said that yes it's been approved that you're gonna go to Woodhill for further assessment so I was on full PPE that's again protective I was on the 7 man unlock and I was double ratchet I then it was crazy when I stepped onto the unit on the CSC it was so demoralizing it feels like you can even ask Lou when he came to see me like him and his father came to see me in Belmarsh and how I was caged up it was so demoralizing for the spirit it just felt I felt so much weight on my shoulder it was this and they put me on an extreme regime they said that I was manipulative they said I suffer with glib that means words come easily by your insincere they said I had psychopathic tendencies and they said that I was one of the leading leading figures of the muslim waygang and what they wanted to start doing now is removing the leaders and putting them into solitary confinement so I was one of them that they classified as influential within the system dispersal system so my earliest memory I went there the officers were harsh when I was there they were very skilled and drilled they movements were very calculated in the sense of exactly and let's not beat around the bush they've always dealt with many dangerous people so now these are the officers I call them like the SAS officers these are the ones that will take you down and no one is going to complain because you are now considered there's about 50 of us as the most dangerous prisoners in the whole entire country so it's not something like and they're not taking it like so one of the rulings that they had I couldn't have I couldn't have my trainers I couldn't have my toothbrush I didn't have a pen no television you had to earn all those things slowly but gradually and I remember being placed in my cell looking around and I was thinking how am I going to deal with this and then I remembered that when I was younger I was always socially excluded like in primary school in the headmaster's office had to do my work there then in secondary school in the headmaster's office always so I'm thinking I can actually do this but then there was moments people asked me so what was the hardest time it weren't so much the solitary confinement it was the attitude and behaviour that came with being in solitary confinement it was so cold and they said so the way that I looked at what kept me going was four things obviously my faith, my belief in God my family and friends patience and discipline why I say belief in God because in my faith and even in Christian belief as well God never gives you a burden greater than what you can bear family and friends I would put united we stand divided we fall so they gave you that kind of spark I would say when I said patience the peace of mind is obtained by being patient and I would say discipline the words the teacher told wise man and the enemy to the fool so these are the kind of principles that I kind of held on to but it was something that I was reading and it allowed me to it allowed me to laugh at myself it was two books actually conversation with myself with Nelson Mandela when all the trials and tribulations that he went through and the times when he was in solitary confinement and there was another lady as well she was accused of being a part of the Muslim Brotherhood which was a banned organisation in Egypt and she was tortured they done many horrific things to her and especially her being a woman we probably know what they also done to her as well which was to describe a woman horrified listeners and it was something that she said though she said that the final insult they done was they chopped off one of her hands and then they paraded her to the people like look what we've done to this woman and she started to laugh so they thought that she lost her mind and she said this and it always stuck with me and I'm always going to repeat this to the day I die she said the sweetness of faith has allowed me to forget the bitterness of pain and then I said that's what my friend John Boy used to say he used to be a traveller that was in isolation as well he said give your head a wobble so I gave my head a wobble and I said you know what I can do this but it was horrible though it was at times as well and especially when your there was one particular officer and he took a great disliking to me I understand that he lost his comrades in the war but first and foremost is we're not in the war second year as well I'm not in for terrorists terror related incidences everybody knows this I'm from Patmore and I would say this so so I don't know what you're talking about but he was things like you want to take our jobs you want to take our women and everything and he kept on saying look situations are going to happen I feel in fear of my I feel in fear of my personal safety and then one day a situation happened and I lashed out also taking into consideration that I'm still now going to court for the the gentleman whose throat was caught plus the other officers that were injured now this is a third case they've all combined it so what they done was I was fighting with them I didn't know the extent of my injuries until then I was taken to one of the cells within two days I was then moved to full certain seg there they were very serious down that seg they were waiting for me I knew I was looking to get a pasting but then they saw the extent like for some reason I was kind of struggling to take my top off when they saw my ribs they said we're not taking responsibility for this game x-rayed then they said something like fractured ribs and so forth but there was a lot of there was a lot of ill treatment like especially even in the seg in the segs and I was being moved around so remember my court case is going but there was some advice as well I remember his name was Big Rubble people talk about Charles Brunson all the time and no disrespect for not taking anything away from him but there's other guys that are downed it like you've never even heard of this guy has spent 25 years in solitude confinement as well this guy is extremely intelligent but he's actually given up in the sense of given up in the sense of that he just doesn't like anyone in uniform and I can understand because of his treatment all these years and so forth and he said something to me he said kid he told me because he's a lot older than me he said kid I liked him he's always the bae he's highly intelligent he says kid you may listen to me but you know you've entered a new world he says this is what I tend to do I can give you some advice I tend to pace up and down make sure that you have a routine and he said one thing to me he said that when eventually you get your television he says watch a cartoon he says it softens the heart and these are the kind of things that I hang on to and there was a stage where I was in some sexes when I'd be extremely cold especially if you're up in the north of the country you know especially and they give you one blanket and I would have like and I'd be wrapped up like near the pipes and I always envisioned myself like just talking to an audience or just making changes and I thought one day I thought you know what I'm gonna die here you know that thought and I remember talking to my mom and my mom cried and I said to my mom that look mom I don't think I'm gonna survive and you know because of my belief system as well can you do something for me she said what's that if I'm died please make sure that I'm buried in a muslim cemetery please and I'm sorry for all the pain and misery that I've actually caused during my life and I really mean that because by then for the first two years I didn't get a visit because they were saying there was a problem with my visitation so it was very hard so some conversations and when my, eventually when I did have a visit and my uncle came and saw me when my uncles, he burst out crying I've never seen my uncle cry I looked to state I didn't know I thought I was okay he knew that and the whole they said it can be alarming and you have to remember that when I had the visit and I was like on a seven man unlock you have them, you have the table like this and you have them all around the table and it was very intrusive and I met my mum crying and I had a lot of time to reflect on my life so now I'm fighting the case so going to court what they said was that they had interred that I was looking to people were looking to break me up so I had to go to Belmarsh about to say in Belmarsh and use the underground passage to go to Woolwich so I went there when I went there I saw a lot of officers all lined up I'll never forget this this was the first time that I started to observe that there is some people trying to make changes as well but sometimes it's very difficult and they fight against a lot of resistance for the first time when I really felt human contact a governor he's retired I don't know whether I can mention him or not but anyway a governor he sat next to me and even me I kind of seized up thinking I'm so conditioned now of having all these kind of protocols that when he sat next to me I was like and he said that look I believe in giving people chances you came with a massive massive reputation so I said look excuse me sir I'm not here to cause any problems within your establishment I just want to be left alone he said I can do that there were still some officers a bit upset because they heard about all the officers that got her and there was one officer that was a female that got her but when they looked at the footage and they saw that she crashed into the table so after the first court appearance I came back to myself I had everything television, they gave me everything but I didn't want too much eventually after court cases over and so forth that's what going to disappear again that's what going to evaporate and they said to me you've been set up that's what they said, their own words it got thrown out the judge, the judge was saying what is this this is silly but then the imagine this, the crown prosecution service and the prison service they appealed it and got me to go to central London their appeal courts, they got it overturned go back to court and fight it again what they basically said was that I was connected with the Taliban this was a hit the guy that got his throat cut was supposed to be Northern Alliance I'm supposed to be working for the Taliban I throw Caribbean my grandparents are from St. Vincent and St. Lucia, how is this kind of connection working I had these international links then what they basically so what they basically done was that got thrown out, another judge also said what is this the jury couldn't make a decision and in my third trial I was basically found I'm not guilty for the throat I'm not guilty for the assaults on all the officers and what helped me because I had a whistleblower so from them whistleblower and the last one I was found guilty so the one with the officer the army the army guy that believed that we was there and I was found guilty for both of them but I could have won that case as well but I'll be honest with you do you know how we've grown up we never burnt the bridge that brought us over death before dishonour never bite the hand that feeds you I could have won the case I'm a barrister wanted to use something I would have implicated an officer that was very kind to me when I was at my lowest I couldn't do that so I said I'd rather lose this case than indicate this officer and the barrister said no but I said nah I'm not doing it I said you're gonna have to listen to my directions so that's how I lost the case that particular case but I knew I could have won it if I it all sounds tiring there's some life brother in it like all the pain and fighting when you break it all down who the fuck are you fighting for isn't it crazy it has psychotic behaviour so when you actually break it all down all the pain all the destruction nobody wins and that's the mad thing and you're right because it was something that an officer said to me as well he said Paterson remember this as well you're getting older we're getting younger and it was so true it is irrespectively but they knew by then I've actually made the changes and adjustments in my life but obviously that the system was very you know the system was still upset so then eventually I spent seven years in solitary confinement they had at the end they had like a pathway through where what a pathway is it's like the final part where you get more flexibility you're mixing more with the guys that are in solitary confinement and you can cook some food and they're preparing you to go back onto the wings when I went back onto the wing I had such a warm reception it was so beautiful the whole wing I'm talking about people from like one of the first people was like calling gun he gave me like little munchies and everything you know Dean and Colin the Outlaws the Outlaws from Manchester then I had my brothers Abdul Rahim Chaos and so many people and it's just kind of wrong because what a lot of people don't understand 95% I know that they've done this this was an old statistic I don't know about now but in my time 95% of the people became mentally unwell once they went onto the CSC and was admitted into Broadmoor and it's a bit unfair like what they're also doing on some of the other residents that are still there Kevin Fakris being there for nearly 14 years this is not right you have Abdul Rahim he hasn't had a disciplinary hearing so he's not being found guilty so when you don't have a disciplinary you're considered as an exemplary prisoner since 2006 but why has he always been moved from segregation and units and we're in 2024 something does need investigating I'm not saying that the whole system is bad but what I'm actually saying is that there needs to be a system in place where there can be accountability because it's unfair it's destroying people's lives as well we're still human it's like what one brother said as well he said sometimes people think we're robots we still have feelings see the people who was in that prison Charlie Bronson's and stuff did you feel you deserved to be there as well because of the shit you done or were you still saying in a way where you thought nah I sent right or did it feel more comfortable because that is for the mentally insane that is for the ones who are you can't trust them you know yourself listen there is innocent people in prison they are for reason listen I've had people on who have been fucking done 20 stretches and have been innocent and it's sad but that's only a very small percentage so when you're in with the mad men and the mentally insane did you feel out of place or did you feel what was normal no I felt out of place but then the system thought that I was the some master manipulator but how long can you keep playing a role for I done it consistently and I kept on telling them and then they started to put things like psychopathic tendencies we believe that you're just playing a game you're a master manipulator and so forth but who have I manipulated then they started to write things that I tell you how severe it got as well that they basically said that I radicalized my mum my mother it's crazy I'm radicalizing my family I'm radicalizing my friend my friends would you see Lou radicalized I say this because you know him I say this because you know him like you know it's crazy it's like we're all human beings so it got so and this went the end of it it was only the beginning so eventually and we're progressing through the system nicely until I got to a C at Brixton this is where the puppets blew up even more who saw so I'm on the LPU this is a pathway out so LPU unit now is I'm ready on general population but LPU is for long term as they help you and you so from there you would I for be released back out into society or you go to a D cat now what they're basically saying is that within the short space of time I've had 50 SIRs written against me I'm thinking but by how even the officers were arguing as well saying that Mr. Paterson doesn't do anything he stays in his soul he knows that he's not allowed in anybody's soul nobody's allowed in his soul maybe I was happy with that then they can't say that I'm whispering anything it's like a small space so you can hear all the conversations and everything the psychologist the officers on the wing and the psychologist will defend me I have to give it to the Brixton staff so thank you for being brave do you know I got told to shut their mouths and to continue their work maybe you lot need to look and Mr. Paterson's manipulated you lot as well well I can manipulate so many people who am I who do they think I am so they would search I would have regularly regular cell searches because they said that they believed that I was in communication with outside cells to commit some atrocities in the streets of Britain that I was leading training underground cells it was crazy so eventually I had a parole hearing it was absolutely crazy I've never seen nothing like it halfway through my parole hearing they've informed me that I need to leave because it's information that I can't be privy to then my Brixton had to sign something that she's liable for imprisonment as what if it gets leaked out I'm thinking what's going on so she looked at me and said do you trust me I said of course she said leave it with me so what the viewers have to also understand is what the parole board that's another difficult it's a never it's not another difficult process because they do a system which they call probability so remember when I was found not guilty for those offenses what the parole board were basically saying is that well the courts may have found you not guilty but we still believe that you're guilty of those offenses and that can determine whether you progress or you don't how is that fair so they're saying that okay we didn't get you in the courts of law but we can still get you in the parole board because we can still find you guilty and it was absolutely crazy and so this what I was bound in so eventually anyway yes I got my open conditions I thought yes that's it now after how many years so by then it was I think it was what 20 years how did you go from an ACAT to a CCAT how long did that take you and what was the process to then make those changes to get to a CCAT especially being so violent and inside especially being that Charlie Bronson character where you could have been doing a 50 stretch you could have died in there how did you make those changes what was the turning point the turning point was a lot of things as well I must admit when I went on to the mains in Full Sutton there was a CM she actually called me into the office what I'm hearing from your story it's always women who change your life you sacrifice your life for court cases you put your hands up 20 stretch you kind of listened the other governor it's always women who you seem to listen to more I don't know I just feel that I think it's their approach I just felt that they understood does that make sense is that because of the respect you have for women as well and all your sisters where you understand maybe that feminine energy and you know you're not being tested yeah you're right maybe because I've got nine sisters fuck so you've no other option but to fucking listen bro fuck so yeah that's actually folk provoking I've never really looked too deeply into it like that I just saw it as like it makes sense do you know with me gender stereotype I tend to just take a person how they are and especially in we need to be honest here as well a lot of guys don't want to talk this but in the line of let's be honest the times when I used to practice the demonic arts that's what I call it demonic arts because it is if you can look at somebody and have no feelings when you're shooting them it's demonic if you're involved it didn't matter whether you're a woman or a man if you're involved in that type of lifestyle you also suffer the consequences that's how it worked people don't want to talk about that because it's kind of taboo like oh what no it doesn't matter if you're involved in that type of lifestyle so for me it was that if you if it makes sense and you're saying the right thing so how she came across she said that look you're old school we're old school but you need to understand things have changed and it has when I came out it's like gray hairs like I've lost my hair some of the guys that you know I was now it's the younger guys and they're like they're calling me it started with big bro I got you then it started with uncle I got you I think he was kind of young calling me uncle what my uncle so I'm just like no I'm not only that I started to see changes like there was this there was this young guy named Connor we were running so everybody's open conditions everybody's watching and we're jogging you know I still think I've got it but these are young these are young bucks I started to feel like you know I'm breathing heavy you know there's only about 600 meters to go I can still do it you know like that and he's just looking and he's like you know he just looks at me he gives me that look like uncle I'm going now yeah and then he's calling me saying come on come on I'm going to put a hamstring head on so it was just yeah it was yeah the whole dynamic changed so she said there's a lot of like she says on both sides love young officers there's a lot of there's a lot of old arm there's a lot of young officer there's a lot of young inmates as well so she says if any of the officers you feel that's before come to us first and I respected that and I said look I'm not here to cause a disruption so what happened was eventually they observed me I was therefore in the dispersal for about a year before they moved me on they said that listen we need to get you out you need to go home that's what the officers actually said I became in that time I became a wing representative they liked the way that I resolved situations and the rest of my peers did as well so they nominated me for being a prison council member that means that I had access to the governors I would actually sit on the table with governors there's no officers around so they trusted me and then we will have discussions on regards to what the demands of the other residents are and how they're feeling and so forth then when I moved on from there I then went to Dovgate again the roles followed me I became a violence reduction rep I became a wing representative I had so many jobs that were so too much I had to relinquish quite a few and then the trust I had to build they started to say that look this guy is really for change a lot of things that I've had to deal with internally as well like now and again you get challenges so there was there was one case and this is when I knew that I have changed so there was a young man now I understood but at the time it was quite emotional there was this young man and this other man he's quite very wealthy he's a millionaire he's flashy with it but it's up to him he's earned his money he's legitimate he's earned his money so he can be flashy but they were like the best of friends so one day I'm just I like to read so one day I'm sitting and I'm reading my doors like being knocked erratically I'm saying come in this gentleman older gentleman slightly like I would say that he's probably seven years older than me his face is a mess he says they've robbed me like his watch he had a very very expensive watch he said they've robbed me they've beaten me up now I just thought protective over him you know like I'm thinking like what's happened I said who he says the kid I'm saying what kid I'm saying what I called him like your son I said what your son I said what your him I said no I said you don't like me I'm so silly as well but I said like are you sure you know I don't mean to laugh I'm not laughing over this matter yeah of course so he's like yeah so I said you know one thing that I've learned in life as well there's always two sides to every story don't jump to conclusions let me just ask so I called another individual that said that he was aware of the situation so we're talking this young kid now very strong very big you can see he's a total gladiator you can see all the scars and marks and this is a tough kid he's not an idiot he's got gladiatorial skills we know this he's just come out of all of a sudden he says what are you he uses the p word what are you p words talking about if you got to say anything we can do it now like you know what that was kind of attitude so I looked at my friend and I said did I just hear that correctly now you know like now I'm thinking I'm talking to myself and I'm saying calm down but I said he's starting to bounce around now because he's really big he's starting to bounce around like so I'm thinking okay remember I done boxing he's come to close proximity I said you know what let me put my trainers on because I had my sliders on I said I don't even want to get caught off guard there because they won't hear the loss of it yeah I beat up so I put my trainers on so he's making a lot of noise so I said okay so this kid wants to do it on the cameras so he wants to dance on the cameras that's what he wants really so I done something new I should not have done it because I should understand the dynamics he's young still so I knew the one thing that will wind him up because now I would want evidence from the cameras in it so he's come to me rather than I've come to him so what I done was I know I shouldn't have done it I blew him a kiss he went mad he went absolutely went to rush over they were holding him back they were giving another kiss and so after my friend spoke to me and he was saying come on you're too old for this we think you wind up these young guys just talk to him so I spoke to him I'm so glad I really like this kid as well I spoke to him so after anyway we called he was a bit like when I went into his soul was a bit like so I asked him where would you like me to sit to try to make him feel more comfortable so he was like yeah there so I'm listening to him and so I said that first and foremost is can you get the watch back he said it's gone I knew it was expensive watch I know they gave it to someone that's gone I knew that so I asked him a question why did you do it he said that look all my life I've had nobody show me any love people only use me because of what I do and the same guy was using me as well yes he has a nice watch what you saw me with him but what has he ever given me he was stunned in front of me so he showed me all these things but he's never bought and I thought you know what he's so correct he didn't give him the slice of the cake he was just giving him crumbs he knew that this guy didn't really show him any love because these kids weren't doing this to me and he could he's strong he's stronger than me but they've never acted like this but this guy has he thought that he could manipulate them and it didn't work out for him in that way so I realized that there's always two sides to every story no matter how severe it looks sometimes it's good just to observe and to find out what the real reason behind that was so anyway eventually I moved on I moved on from there bricks and they were giving me problems eventually I went to open conditions more problems it was good in a sense of I'm not going to lie all this stuff they never bothered me at all they was like yeah Pat oh yeah do that you can do whatever you want to do they just left me alone your breath of fresh air and I'm just thinking I'm just being me but then they called me to the probation and they said you have somebody wanting to converse with you and I'm thinking what's the great mystery just tell me who it is I saw this young lady she came in the screen she said oh hello Dwayne I'm not being rude but who are you she says oh we're national security I'm thinking oh man like national security yeah well you've been flagged up as so we're going to be we're your probation from now on so for three and a half years I've had them and in that time as well I had so many restrictions for example I um as you know already I couldn't do any podcast but even before that like there was so many job opportunities that I lost out on because they had to go to my employees so could you imagine if somebody came to you and said we're national security and would you employ this guy they couldn't think whoa what's he done? automatically so there was so many there were so many restrictions there were so many things that were um basically happening and it was difficult at the end of it eventually when um they've all left now so I've seen national security I had to see a person from the home office every week they um they assigned me when I was in Deca a mom that went through the Quran with me I went allowed inside um outside I went allowed inside Moses anything but now I've I've been cleared by them so I'm not with national security no more not with any of them and at the end the last meeting I had with them I said so where was the great major plan and the plots that I was supposed to be doing they said we're only doing our job I said I understand that but I said that I'm not blaming you because she was okay but what I'm actually saying is that many lives have been destroyed because of this this kind of process as well I don't think I deserve that and I lost out a lot and I could have easily of given up and what we call we call it kind of like the Jean Rajon syndrome so if you've read the book Les Miserables it's a drop so it's a man that you know broke the window to feed his family then after that he was you know he was incarcerated for I think it was 507 years but he could never accept being incarcerated so he was trying to escape to eventually done 19 years he tried to change his life but society wouldn't give him the opportunity for him to change and then he became very bitter and enraged and he said okay because you're making me out to be the monster I'll be the very same thing that you fare so he became that monster and that's what we call the Jean Rajon syndrome Did you see yourself in that story? Not really because I know that the sky has no limit and I've realized that I never used some good people and I told you the reasons why because at the time when I was the first opportunity I got and it was part time grapples on in Westminster Bridge Road it's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu so I do Jiu Jitsu and they weren't scared they were all about giving people second chances and they said that look it's not much but it can be something you can work as a sales representative and also as a receptionist just to build up your profile and everything else and I said thank you for giving me this opportunity and they treated me no different from their team they trusted me I now work they gave me the keys I locked up everything is full trust so they were they believed in giving people second chances then I must admit again and I have to mention them as well I know that sometimes some people may dislike him Young Spree from RTM he was always just funny making sure that I'm okay is there anything that I can do for you you know and it was coming from a good place because there was nothing that I could give him and then obviously the family my friends, my wife and this has been a massive influence in my life as well it's my wife how did you meet your wife? did you get married in prison? when I was in open conditions because they wouldn't allow us to so how I met my wife as well when I came out of isolation as well I spoke to my brother and my brother that's here and I was like I was saying to him because it does isolation does do something to you and I was lonely I just want someone to talk to you like a feminine presence and not be around men all the time and I said you have some and he said I've got a perfect person for you she's bubbly she's intelligent I think you are a good match and the family loves her my father loves her yes son I wanted one of my sons to marry her so it was it was and you have to also remember she comes from Italian background she's Italian and her family's got good occupations as well they were very cautious her sister's a barista and so at first they seen people and they're thinking whoa what have you done they're nervousness everybody would do the same I can't fool them for that but they're thinking oh my gosh you certainly brought this you know we told you to go to the zoo but not to bring the animal back you know so she was under a lot of pressure but she believed in it but what happens if he changes because there is a lot of changes and even now I'm still finding time so it's just hard we've come through our difficulties since being out as well where we nearly separated and things like this the moments when I really needed her she was there she was like a rock for me and I can't I can't disrespect that it was it was hard and so yeah that's how we met so we spoke then we found compatibility and then from there we expressed to our family and friends what our intentions were and then obviously I'm a Muslim and we embraced Islam and we married but now the problem was they weren't recognising it religiously so we had to do the registry office and we've done that as well so we've been married for three years I'll say yeah three years seeing you spoke to the women Andrew and you spoke about fears what was your biggest fear I had a few but losing the ones that I love and I think it was time can be very cruel and time waits for no one and as much as I was stuck in the past people were moving on my brothers and sisters were having children and they've got their own families and I'm still seeing them as we're still young I'm still revisiting things that was long lost and sometimes as well I was upset with a lot of individuals as well like even friends as well they didn't do what they said they were going to do when I was incarcerated but now being outside I understand that they weren't that they didn't have the intentions of doing it society doesn't sometimes give you that chance that opportunity things are moving so fast as well everyone's treading water everyone's just trying to stay alive it's difficult yeah and so now I understand that and I'm trying to appeal this to the brothers that are incarcerated as well please don't quick to judge individuals as well that are outside as well because it is very hard when you know you have to pay council tax you have to pay all these kind of bills as well me and my wife as well we're renting we have to pay rent we have to do all these things as well it's hard out here especially if you're living a legitimate life and that's what we're doing what's the worst thing you've seen in prison? um I think one of the worst things that I've actually seen when I was in solitary confinement I think and I always remember this I know I've said it so many times but it was a guy and he's no friend of mine he has racist tendencies but his mother died and so all he wanted to do was phone his family and have that conversation with his family and the officer said kick the door again he's getting frustrated because he wanted to make the phone call and they wouldn't allow him to and so he kicked it he said come on lads let's suit up and they beat him so much do you know when it almost became inhuman and he wet himself he beat a person so much that they wet themselves and they were laughing about it and I remember some of the women officers were they wiggling their little fingers because he weren't willing down so they were laughing at him when they cut his clothes and so forth and I think for me psychologically that always impacted on me like no matter when he disliked a human being as well but to subject him to that kind of treatment it's not right so I think that's what kind of impacted on me as well that I saw in prison degrading someone so after nearly spending 30 years in prison when you got your lib date what was that feeling knowing you were going to get released there was mixed emotions and it was so nice as well like from the guys that were in the open it's like everybody knew about it because it's been a long time like you know I got along with so many people so even I had so many bags and half the wing was carrying my bags and wishing me of all different races nationalities and it was this it was amazing we weren't carrying your bags just to get you to go man right fuck he's got to say no after that you changed no because even then do you know the officers done they stood up and they hugged me they actually hugged me and they said we know you're going to do great things out there that's what they said to me and I was shocked how did that make you feel to be anti authority basically hating them basically don't care if they lived or died to then getting hugs and getting support to show because you could have had that at the start as well like I say it's just like education to understand people and you're going to get good and bad anywhere in life so how was that feeling for you to be then feeling love and feeling do you know what because it's a one feeling don't get me wrong it's a bit gay you feel something changes in you where you don't have that persona of anger frustration, violence then you feel sensitive and you try and understand things but how was that for you to come in the system to then be getting that love do you know what I'm still processing it because I was shocked I wasn't expecting it so you know it's just one of those so many officers came out to say goodbye to me as well and it was just like that's why we say especially in Islam as well that man plans but God is the best of planners because you just never know and it was just yeah it was a good feeling though to know that I've actually seen that I am trying and it's not just the other day this has taken years so sometimes when people are saying that I don't really trust them it feels a bit no this has been years when was the last time that I had a physical altercation with anyone was from 2011 they have to also understand that so it's taken many many years it's been a lot of people are envious in this world because they don't make changes so a lot of people will not want to see you've changed because they're stuck in their ways even though you've been in for nearly 30 years people are still in it it's like a prison sentence for people on the streets they ain't done for cool obviously you've missed your freedom but a lot of people are still in the same area talking the same shit the same life and that's down to them but it's all they know as well and things don't really change that much obviously things move on but when you get out you're ever scared now that the old Duane comes back because he's always going to be there that inside the internal whatever you've just controlled that which is a beautiful thing but do you ever get scared that you can fucking unleash it again no I get scared that I can be misconstrued and be placed back into prison because remember you're not secure especially when you have a life sentence but in regards to no I don't I'll tell you why when you've lived the lifestyle that we've lived you need to you need to have a certain mindset I don't have that in me anymore I'm going to be honest with you I don't have that that kind of ruthlessness anymore I just don't have it in me and somebody said that one day it will happen to you one day or what happened to you where you just don't have that in you it won't work for me now so yeah do you ever worry about old retaliation no I don't because look it's in God's hands and not only that as well as what it's it's a whole different world out here now and I'm a true believer as well about removing yourself I don't live around here I'm where we live is a leafy area for my wife it's it's quiet and that's how I like it and I only converse with those that I believe that are of some benefits and you know it's nice as well because do you know when you've known like for example I can only I'm going to speak about this individual because I know him personally like Liu I've known him my whole entire life I've seen the trials and tribulations that he's gone through and it's nice to actually see that somebody who I personally know has made changes and adjustments in his life as well it's so nice we came from a we came from a era I'm older than we came from an era that was kind of like passed down it's like it was like a gladiatorial contest and those that stood out and he was my neighbor his father was my uncle he looked after me always made sure that I was okay always all the prison time that I done sending me money before he was incarcerated himself and making sure that I was always okay with my family was okay you know and it's nice to see the changes on what they're trying to do you know for the community and that's all I'm trying to do as well what's your biggest regret the lives I've just read because I'm gonna be honest with you I've encouraged so many people in my life as well there's lots of young people that looked up to me as well and I said the wrong example but I was young myself so that is that's something that's gonna hold me for the rest of my life but it is sometimes it's hard sometimes I sit there my wife says are you okay I have to sit there I'm just like it's hard it's difficult I know that that's a cross that I have to bear how hard does change it's very hard it was difficult but I had to look within myself what do I want out of life do I want to continue to be a victim of circumstances or do I want to create my own kind of history my own kind of future God has been kind to me as well he's given me a beautiful family he's given me a beautiful wife and everything we've been through a lot we've been through so many trials and tribulations she could have easily walked away but she never is that the first time you felt love what felt love in the sense of my family's always shown me love but outside definitely 101% genuine love she didn't know who I was she didn't care about that if I was still up to any of those things she would be gone and she's not any way criminally involved in anything as a human being and she tells me what my failures are as well that's what I like about her as well she'll tell me where I'm going wrong where other people in the past they've encouraged me I'll say yeah but just do this yeah you can do that no she'll tell me when are you at your happiest when I'm with her I'll be honest with you I'll be honest we went through a difficult period when I came out for us to adjust and when I went with her I thought lost I thought I lost everything, this one I know that she was the right person for me when are you at your worst I think sometimes when I have flashbacks I know it might sound strange but sometimes I could be sitting there and a moment can a moment can just occur where I think back of like a time where I didn't get my food today or they've done something to my food or they've laughed at the death of a family member when I've been told the bad news and I can't do anything about it or something's happened to my family member and I've received a letter so sometimes those things as part of life we'll go through our trials and tribulations where do you go forward for the future yeah so I just want to help see one of the promises that I actually made before I left especially soldier confinement as well some of the guys asked me as well you have a flattering tongue they always used to make a joke and they say that please build voice for us so I always said that I wanted to be a voice for the voiceless so I want to help build a better system in place for those that are incarcerated for them but also to help members of the public as well so these individuals don't come out angry and bitter and thinking that society owes them everything and create more victims so that's what I would like to do but sometimes it's very difficult as well because what I've found since being out as well it's like an old boys club it's like a privileged few and then that's it or you're just a mascot pushing to the side and not knowing that I need to survive as well I'm trying to do something positive as well courage is goodness sometimes I just find that it's difficult but we have patience because one thing that prison actually teaches us as well is patience you wait for everything you wait for your food you wait for visits, you wait for everything what's your biggest life lesson that you've learnt with all the traumas and tribulations you've went through I think what Albert Einstein said condemnation without investigation is the head of ignorance so rather than just assuming it's first I think that's very important in life as well sometimes we can see that a person behaves a certain way you say I don't really like him but you don't know what problems that person is going through in their lives as well it's like once me and my brother had to argue my brother that's there and I said I was going to put him in the naughty corner not knowing that he would probably put me in the naughty corner and he says that but do you know what problems that everyone else is going through and I weren't really thinking about that I was just thinking about how I was feeling and now I'm seeing that for anybody that's watching this may be stuck in a life of trouble what advice would you have for them never give up this is it I understand that it's easily said and done but believe me, never give up it can if you persevere it will happen listen for coming on and then telling your story it's been mad, it's been a roller coaster but it's unbelievable from the character that you were you personally it's fucking night and day and it's a beautiful thing to see shout out to my brother Lewis Clark as well his dad's out as well which is another amazing thing you're just three all together it's fucking nice to see probably at times you would have thought that would have never fucking happened but would you like to finish up on anything else Dwin? no I'd just like to say thank you very much for allowing me to platform this opportunity as well thank you and watch our social medias and stuff for people who are getting contactless maybe want to offer you a job or give you a helping hand because this is what it's all about people can understand you and not just believe what other people say you can hear it from a horse's mouth and then people get about understanding okay the thing about people in the UK where a good judge is a character nothing really gets passed listen we can all manipulate and bullshit but people kind of know who's real and who's not you're a hundred percent real man you've lived that life you've clearly made the changes but it's been a struggle you've seen the shit that you've done the shit that's happened to you for anybody watch all your social media and links just in case people wanted each out yeah so my wife helps me with my Instagram because remember I'm still behind times so please forgive me I'm a dinosaur so it's Dwayne Patterson and as the number three so Dwayne D-W-A-I-N-E and Patterson P-A-T-T-E-R-S-O-N so for anybody that's wanting to help them job or whatever by all means getting contact a lot of people might ask you questions but you've lived that life there's no reason why you should have been in prisons and schools and possibly a book can turn that into it because you've lived a very hectic chaotic fucking life and it's unbelievable the changes that you've made and again shout out to my boy Louie thanks for coming on today listen I wish you nothing but the best for the future my brother okay thank you my brother thank you