 Aloha and welcome to this latest installment of Living Legend Lawyers. That is a program sponsored by the HSBA and that's the Hawaii State Bar Association and put on by Think Tank Hawaii. My guest today is Carol Mon Lee and theme for this particular program is the, you can tell me what the theme is because I just got noticed that I'd be appearing on this program with you and sort of asking you questions and interviewing you but I gather you came up with a theme for this particular program. Right. Well my suggested theme was making room for women lawyers in the state of Hawaii because both you and I have been in practice now for over 40 years and in the early days we were pioneers. Yes, you were actually, I looked you up on, it appears that we've known each other for approximately 42 years because I was a student at the Richardson School of Law when you were on the faculty. Correct. And I just realized this. So that comes to 42 years that we at least made each other's acquaintance. So I want to welcome you to this program and we're going to start with some questions about your varied background but I understand that you're not only a lawyer but you are also an educator, you're a community activist, you're a corporate executive and that you've practiced in these fields for several years during those four decades that you've been in the profession of law. So can you tell me, Carol, what made you become a lawyer? Oh well, Susan, I don't know what your reasons were in the past but when I went to law school which was between 1971 and 1974, there were very, very few women in the law profession. I mean, there were a handful of token women, women like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who may have been one of among whatever, three or four in her class, but in the late 60s and 70s, a few more women started to go to law school and in part that was due to law schools expanding the enrollment to women because men were going off to war in those years Vietnam. So to fill the seats, women were being encouraged to attend. So when I attended law school there were only 15% women but the reason why I chose law school at that time was because I was actually trained to be a teacher. I had a master's in fine arts and fine arts education but I couldn't find a teaching job in the early 70s. So living in San Francisco and law school being practically free at UC Hastings, I decided to go to law school. At that time I wasn't sure I was going to graduate even or practice. I was one among 15% women. Now when you started law school, Susan, in 1975, 74, what percentage of women were lawyers at UH Law School? I was told that the percentage was nearly half but it was just under 50%. And of course the profession was very sparsely populated with women. And when I got out of law school and went into litigation, I could count on one hand the number of women who were litigating in court. So when you were at Hastings, did you have an idea of where you were going to practice or if you were going to practice? None whatsoever. As I said, I wasn't even sure I was actually going to graduate. And I did, and I did graduate and practice law for two years in general litigation for them in Los Angeles. And by chance I came here with my then husband to Hawaii and he said, let's move to Hawaii. So we moved to Hawaii. And what brought you to, at that time it was called the University of Hawaii School of Law. Right. I had realized that I didn't really care for litigation. And having been an educator or teacher before I went to law school, I thought maybe that's the best combination of teaching law, combining my law background with my interest in teaching. So I taught for two years at UH and realized again after two years that actually I preferred not teaching although I really enjoyed the academic environment. And so I went to downtown Honolulu to work at American Trust Company in the corporate field for about 15 years. Well actually you didn't just work there, you became a corporate officer? Yes. And how long did you spend in that field? I was about there for 15 years. But in between I actually was a staff attorney for the Hawaii State Constitutional Convention in 1978. So I got an opportunity to understand how the legislative, in this case the constitutional process worked, met wonderful people, really connected to many future leaders of our community. But I worked in the corporate field for about 15 years and then our companies were sold. There were a couple of companies that were sold and at that point I took an opportunity to again do something else. I went back to practice for a short time, did some independent consulting and then an opportunity arose to become associate dean at the law school again. So I went back to the law school thinking that it would be the best combination of my skills at that point which were interest in education, administrative skills developed after 15 years in the corporate world. But using my law background to be among butting lawyers, law students so that I could work with both the faculty and the students in curriculum and other issues relating to becoming lawyers. But during this sojourn of yours through these various fields, how many women did you encounter in the practice of law? In the practice of law was always very few, very few. I remember when I was in Los Angeles I was of course the only woman at the time in my small firm and then we joined organizations like the Southern California Chinese Lawyers Association and California Women Lawyers. And these were butting organizations that had kind of grown out of the growth in the field of having both minorities and women as lawyers. And so it was an exciting time for me and you too in the 70s where this awareness and this opportunity to make changes in a profession that was traditionally populated by men, mostly white men and in these standard fields of law practice and maybe some politics and business. But what I saw was an opportunity to get into whether it's education, nonprofit world and other opportunities that lawyers are useful and can use their skills in but hadn't been promoted very much in the past. But during this period of time you and a handful of others, other women, got together and saw a need for banding together in a group in order to make inroads in what was traditionally a male profession. So can you tell us about that? Sure. In this period of time in the late 70s, Ray Sanchu who was one of the few women lawyers in the state of Hawaii, she founded Hawaii Women Lawyers. And the trigger for her was that the first graduating class of UH Law School, the class before yours, the class of 76, had a number of women lawyers. So suddenly in our state were not just lawyers, women lawyers who had come from other schools in the mainland and moved here or moved back here, but we had some homegrown local graduates who were women. So Ray organized them in this Hawaii Women Lawyers group that met on a monthly basis and I, she and I, she is my friend, I helped her organize it. And we became a, I became the first president, official president in 1980, and we would hold monthly meetings. We would encourage women to get together, provide programming on all sorts of opportunities, learning about specific skills, opportunities about judgeships, how to prepare it for an interview to become a judge, how to, we provided lists to the governor at that time over the years with Governor Waihei to give him names of qualified women who could become appointed to cabinet positions. So we were very proactive in promoting women and opportunities for women by helping them not just giving information about what opportunities are out there, but even preparing things like writing up a good portfolio or resume to present, how to interview and writing letters on their behalf. So we were very active in promoting women to go into positions of more leadership. Well, I know that Hawaii Women Lawyers, which has been in existence now for almost 40 years, does all of these things now. But back then in 1980, it wasn't very easy, was it? No, it was hard. Well, I remember actually putting labels on folding up the monthly thing. We only had 100 labels. There were only 100 women in the state that received our mailings. We decided we would mail to all women regardless of whether they were officially members of Hawaii Women Lawyers. So it was a slow and steady process, but I'll tell you Susan, it was a very much of a bonding process because my best friends are still among those women lawyers whom we work together with very closely in those days. Well, I think the success of the organization speaks to the efforts that you've made over these decades to grow that organization and to make all of its programs available not only to its members, but to all of the female lawyers in this state. By the way, there was actually an outgrowth of Hawaii Women Lawyers, the Hawaii Women Legal Foundation, and that is a charitable organization that has some ties to Hawaii Women Lawyers. And that goes out into the community, contributes money as well as efforts on all types of social causes. So kudos to you and to your sisterhood that joined you back in 1980. Well, you were also a past president of Hawaii Women Lawyers, right? Well, yeah, but I wasn't back in 1980. Back then I was still struggling to get a foothold in court. And as you know, back then the number of women in court were, you could count on one hand. So the efforts of Hawaii Women Lawyers, your efforts in organizing that group are appreciated by not only me, but by all of the members of the litigating profession. And right now I can tell you that when I started litigating I would walk into a conference room or into a courtroom and be the only woman in sight. Most of the judges were men, very few women, and most of the attorneys were men. But today, if you walk into a conference room or a courtroom, I will tell you that over 50% are women. So really kudos to you and to the efforts of everybody that worked with you. And joining the Hawaii Women Lawyers and making women really a very important segment of the legal profession. Well, thank you, Susan. We used to say that why is our organization even necessary, Hawaii Women Lawyers? Well, actually the longer term goal is that we wouldn't be necessary because there is no Hawaii Men's Lawyers Association. They don't need representation. They don't need somebody to advocate on their behalf to get more positions or more responsibility. So we are slowly moving toward that point because I see these younger women lawyers, they don't necessarily see a difficulty that if they want to become a judge someday, the barriers aren't the same. Maybe they have different choices, but the opportunities are now there, just as you said. So yeah, in the long term maybe there will be no need for such an organization. One hope so, but I sense particularly at this moment that there are still these barriers and I don't know whether or not those barriers will come down. But what I think your organization, well Hawaii Women Lawyers, which is my organization as well, and the organization of most of the women lawyers that I know will certainly help to bring down those barriers. What barriers do you see now? I'm curious. You're out there in the field still practicing. I've retired and now do something else. But what are the barriers that are in the way of young women lawyers or women lawyers in general? Well, I definitely think that there are barriers, particularly just gender-based barriers, not necessarily based on abilities or whatever comes along with being a woman, particularly in litigation, which is my field. I no longer litigate, but I am an arbitrator mediator these days. And I see that women still have to make choices that men don't have to make, choices between their profession, their children, their family, caregiving in general, and all of the things that come around with family. I know that men have made strides in that area as well, and I think that we are certainly moving toward a society where men and women can share in most everything, but there's still these barriers and there's still these problems. So that's what I meant. I've known women lawyers who had to forego careers in private law firms because of those choices that they had to make. The hours that are necessary to work to become a partner in a firm versus spending more time with your family. Well, when we get back from break and we're going to be taking a break right now, we'll get into other areas of your resume, which are just as interesting. So we'll be right back. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. For more than 100 years, American Humane Association has been teaching kids to be kind to animals. Those in our homes, on the farms, on the silver screen, and wildlife conservation caring for the world's vanishing creatures, but we can't do it alone. Visit kindness100.org to find ways to teach kids how they can make a more caring, compassionate, and humane world for all of us. Aloha. I want to invite all of you to talk story with John Wahee every other Monday here at Think Tech Hawaii. And we have special guests like Professor Colin Moore from the University of Hawaii who joins us from time to time to talk about the political happenings in this state. Please join us every other Monday. Aloha. Thank you for joining us back from the break. I'm talking with Carol Mon Lee, our guest for today. And we've been talking about the Hawaii women lawyers and what she's done in regard to bringing women into the forefront of the legal profession, because at this point I think it's fair to say that women have joined men in the forefront of the profession and making some decisions that will affect other lawyers, men and women, as they progress from new lawyer to experienced lawyer to gray haired lawyer. And right at this point I think you and I sort of function more in the latter category, but your progression through the practice of law and in the legal profession has had many capacities. We've talked about your being an educator, an organizer, a community activist, and we've talked a bit about your going into the corporate world. But of all of these various capacities that a lawyer can occupy, which has given you the most satisfaction? Well, you know, each position that I held, I held because I enjoyed it and learned something from it. Certainly for my 12 years at the law school, both as a teacher in the earlier 70s and then as the associate dean until I retired in 2006, working with students was really satisfying because you're watching young, inquisitive, open-minded, smart future lawyers who are interested and ready to absorb so many different things and are excited about what they're learning. So I really enjoyed the relationships that I built in the way that we could kind of mold students to develop skills, maybe values that I'd like to see in the rest of the world. And you're still involved in the education field in a manner of speaking. You're on some boards? Yeah. Well, actually, I retired from UH Law School at the end of 2006, and so it's already been 12 years. But you were the associate dean. I was the associate dean, right? And so since then, I've had a number of opportunities to work with the law school. But one thing I decided to do, which was I ran for the board of education. Now, in 2008, our younger viewers may not know this, but in 2008, up to that point, members of the board of education were elected to office. 2010, the Constitution was changed to make it a appointed board by the governor. But so I ran, I decided to run for board of education, and I won, surprisingly. I had never been interested in running for office. I am not interested in running for any more offices, but I was really interested in seeing if I could make at least a difference or at least have some input into our state K through 12 education system. So that was a wonderful opportunity to learn more about our public school system here in Hawaii. Right now, as I mentioned, the Constitution was changed in 2010, and that was because one of the many difficult decisions that we, as board of education members, had to make was to meet a huge budget shortfall. If everybody remembers in 2008 and 2009, we had huge cutbacks. And we had already tried over the years, reducing close to schools. We cut down programs that we tried to do as much as we could in saving money. But we, at that time in 2010, had decided to try something new, which were called 15 days of, I've forgotten what we called it, but we had no school for 15 days. So we cut back our school year from 170 plus to 155 days. That saved the school system money because we didn't end up having to close schools. We didn't end up having to fire teachers, which we couldn't do anyways, because of the unions. We didn't end up cutting any more programs, which we had already done. But by closing down the schools for those 15 days, we call them furloughs. We saved transportation costs for the students. We saved food money. We saved staffing money, and we were able to meet the budget. But there was so much negative feedback because of the furloughs that the governor and the state legislature and the public changed the way board of education members are identified. And that was to make it appointed by the governor. But for me, the interesting thing is, since then, actually, not only did our students' test scores not go down because of those years of furloughs, our school test scores stayed the same or actually went up, but now other schools on the mainland use furloughs as a way of meeting their budgets. In addition to that, you mentioned what else they do in education. I sit on a board called the Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education. Yes, I saw that on your resume. What exactly is that? Wichee. And many of our viewers may know Wichee by another acronym called WUI, which is one of his programs, Western Undergraduate Education. So Wichee is a 15-state plus territories consortium, 15 Western states and some territories. And our main theme is to promote access to higher education. And we do that through joint programs that involve include reducing tuition so that some of the schools, some students who choose to, let's say, go to a school in Oregon for undergraduate instead of paying out-of-state tuition if they go through our WUI program, they end up paying state tuition, in this case, plus 50%. So it's a much more reduced tuition cost. We also have programs for professional schools and graduate schools so that, for instance, since Hawaii, we don't have a dental school. We don't have ophthalmology. We don't have physical therapy, occupational therapy. We don't have a school of vet medicine. So where are Hawaii students going to go to learn those skills? Well, we want them to learn them and come back to Hawaii, but they have to go to the mainland to study. So rather than burdening them with the cost of paying out-of-state tuition to go to some of these great schools, so for instance, in South Dakota, there's a great schools of physical therapy, veterinary medicine in Colorado. Our students can go there if they're admitted. And rather than paying out-of-state tuition, they get to pay in-state tuition because of the partnerships that we, under which we have with these schools. And then they come back, hopefully, and practice here. And you served on this commission for how many years? I'm on my second term, so I've served on it for about five years. I have one more year. So these are public institutions? Yes, mostly public institutions, right, yes. Interesting. But you're also on board of governors for Hastings? Yeah, I graduated from UC Hastings in San Francisco, as I mentioned earlier. So this very varied career that you've had that has taken you, actually, to Hawaii, back to the mainland, and I guess you commute for some of the things that you do. Would you have had that career if you did not have a law degree? No. I really value my law degree. And that's one of the reasons why I am happy to serve on the board of my law school and also to continue whatever work I can do with UH and public education. And that is what I tell young people, is that having a law degree is value-added. It doesn't mean you have to become the traditional lawyer. You and I, you're a litigator, but I really didn't want or wasn't interested in that path. And that's really, people think of a lawyer, they think of Perry Mason, or they think of somebody in a courtroom. But having a law degree is so helpful, whether it's business, education, of course, public service, government, politics, entrepreneurs who have law degrees. So having a law degree has helped me immeasurably in terms of, as you know, thinking skills, writing skills, long-term, long-range planning skills, strategic thinking skills. So as an Asian woman in the 70s who was very petite and shy, I could easily have hidden in a corner and nobody would have ever seen me and as interested as I might have been in doing something. I didn't quite have the skill set. The law degree gave me both the skill set, but also the confidence to do something, to say something, and to be out there. You have just written my life story. So I want to thank you for being so open about your law experience. And I really want to thank you for sitting down today with me for this interview. I think that you are absolutely on the money with respect to how important a law degree, as well as just a law education can be in today's world. And I'm told that we are almost out for the second. So I want to thank everyone for listening in. And I want to thank Karamon Lee for appearing with us today. Aloha and goodbye. Thank you.