 So we've been really lucky to have some international keynote speakers, and from lots of different perspectives on water management, we're lucky enough to have Julie Wilk, who's from the centre of climate policy research at the University of Sweden, so she's the director of the centre there, and her background is in water management. For the last 20 years she's been working in water management and developing countries, so in Asia, South Africa and South America and Bolivia, and what's interesting is she's moved into climate adaptation, and over the last day what people alluded to is climate change, of course, with droughts and flooding and lots of presentations, but to specifically look at climate adaptation would be really interesting from this perspective of international development. So the main research area is water resource management in developing countries, and her background is in physical geography and anthropology. So she's worked in 11 countries and three different continents, and also within Sweden itself, so the Baltic Sea region. So maybe I'll just introduce Julie directly, since she's a associate professor at Julie Wilk's. First off, of course, thank you very, very much to the organisers to bring me all this way, so I'm very, very honoured to be here and talk about the work that I've been involved in together with colleagues from the centre, and Matias Järpe and Anna Jonsson, and we've been working in this with these participatory toolboxes that we call them. We've been working in this for the last six years in a number of projects, so I'm really happy to be able to talk about that today. I'll try not to speak too quickly, especially with my strange accent. We're calling it a toolbox, and we say that's a collection of tools to guide groups through assessments of vulnerability related to water resources, looking at climate variability and climate change. And so first off, like, why did we even start with this? Why did we think there was a need for these participatory toolboxes for water-related vulnerability assessments? How did we get involved in this? And from my perspective, I can say at the time I was working at the Swedish Meteorological and Hydrological Institute, and there there's a lot of people, there's a lot of money and resources being spent. The world over on global climate models, a lot of money. And then there's downskating, then we have to make them to reach a climate model, so you have to make them to the scale of catchments. You get all this information, you make these maps. I'm sure you've seen a million maps of the world of climate change. Where is it going to get hotter, colder? Where is it going to rain more or less? All the different ones. But then I was interested in looking at the local scale. That's where I'm very, very interested. I have a lot of friends now after all this time living in rural areas in India, rural areas in South Africa. How does this relate to them? All this knowledge that's being created at the global level, regional level, how does that relate down to someone's life living in a community? So I got really interested in this area, so that's one of the reasons I got involved. Another, I would say, is this as well, that maybe you've come across and they are very common now, something called integrated vulnerability assessments. Then you look at indicator-based risk area. So you look at, for example, flood. This is the case of Norway. So by district level, you get data, you know, what are the flood risks in this area? Landslides, someone else putting a judgment or a number on this, this area is more prone to landslides and other storms, et cetera. Then you put these all together with the GIS, this geographical information system. So you get an exposure map, which we see on the top, but the same for capacity. Then you have to try to say how good are we at, or how good are communities or institutions, how good are they adapting to that. So you have here, we just have factor one, factor two, so you put in what do we have for data? I don't know. Democracy, they put in what's the level of education, what's the age, what about computer skills, and you put that all together and in the end you get this map. So you have a map of Norway and you might think now in my community, where is my community? Oh, is it in a red area? Is it green? Am I, you know, more vulnerable or not? And what does that mean for my community when I just see a little dot there? So from this it felt like there's a need for a bottom up approach or participatory at local level. What do we feel is how are we vulnerable and from what and how. So there, so we felt it was a need, our group felt and we wanted to, our vulnerability assessment or this tool kit that we call it, there's other tool kits out there and we thought what's going to be different about ours when we started to work on this. We thought we'd focus at local level, which is a bit different, and we wanted it to be simple, easy to read and use, so somebody at municipality doesn't feel like, oh no, it's an academics that wrote that again. So the first version we had, we put it out on test and people are like, cut, cut, cut you, academics take, we don't want references, we don't want that. So in the end we have it at the back, more reading. If you're interested in finding out 25 different definitions for vulnerability, you can find that at the end, but you don't want the first 50 pages to be that, which is how we started of course. So we wanted it to be like that, that it's so simple that you feel like you might get interested and you might take some of these concepts and think, oh this would work in my community, my local community or in my municipality. So we written our version in a step-by-step, so if you really feel lost, you can just start with page one, you know, get colored pens, okay, go to the store, do this, hang up papers, you know, you start like this, post it notes, and then you can follow there, if you feel that, or you can use it in another way, which I will talk about. And this is just to briefly that this toolkit is based on three projects that kind of ran parallel and we were a very small group, but sometimes we're so busy, and two of us were involved in one project, three in another, and after a while it's like, are we kind of doing the same stuff? Oh, I think we are. So we started integrating more and more, but the basics of this toolkit is from work we did in South Africa, with this sort of work in Sweden, two municipalities in Sweden, and then in Baltic Sea region, in seven countries in Baltic Sea region. For sake of time, I won't give so much detail, but this is more, in almost all of them, we were trying to get something, for example, at the local level, let's try to have a local adaptation plan, because we come as researchers from outside, you know, what does the community, what are they going to be interested in, and why do they want us to come from Sweden to their community? So we're said, okay, we're not going to drill wells, we're not, we're researchers, there's not going to be anything practical coming up, except together, we can look through, like, what's happening on the ground here, and let's make an adaptation plan, what kind of things would you like to happen, how could you make a plan of how this could happen. And similarly, in Sweden, it was also, the output here was more specifically looking at the tools, okay, how do you write this kind of exercises for groups? How do you get groups to meet in a way, in a multi sectoral way, if you have people from water resources, health managers, all different things. How do we talk together, how can we have exercises that really get us thinking in new perspectives, not the old ways that we always do. And the third one as well, we were, again, more focused on the exercises, but then we should, we had seven regions, the yellow regions are the target areas we had, we worked with these groups, we wrote the exercises, and then they tried them out, that's when they were telling, no, no, no, this isn't going to work, okay, fine, then we revised them again, and then Russia actually was our last case, they joined the project a bit later, and they were like, we don't know anything about climate change, this is great, and they just followed, it was quite fun test, they just did one, and then they just came with this absolutely fantastic adaptation plan, we're like, goodness, you created that, that was really brilliant, so it was really fun to see this process, so it's really something we've been working through in a lot of different contexts. And a little bit background, that's like kind of the skeleton of the tool kit is based on, yeah, this core IPCC definition of vulnerability, but also the three components of it that we look at, it's exposure, sensitivity, and adaptive capacity, which is very common when you're looking in the vulnerability assessments that are related to climate change, and that's because this is from one important scientific work that came out in 2005, and there was a first generation of vulnerability assessments looking at climate, and the biggest change in the one that we worked with, they started to add adaptive capacity, because you start to think, okay, you're exposed, you're sensitive, but what is it that we have as groups, what makes us strong, maybe we're good at collaborating, maybe we're a bit weaker or something else, we have a lot of conflicts, we have barriers for this, but really that was a very important point that we needed to look at when we're talking about vulnerability. So they became the three, I don't have a pointer here, but exposure, sensitivity, and adaptive capacity are kind of the core. And then we also looked at works that's been done quite a bit in a Norwegian group led by Coron O'Brien, and that's of course as well that exposure isn't just climate, you can't come to municipalities and say, we only care about climate, you know, people are like, we have a whole bunch of other things going on, what about global changes, and what about things that are happening in our community. So you need to look at climate related to other things, and they have to be integrated together, you don't want only that, we only look at this for climate, no, you have a whole bunch of other planning things. So you need to look and start at the level of, you know, how do we feel exposed when people are talking about migration, we're worried that, you know, people are moving out of our area to the cities, that's a driver, a big driver, urbanization is a driver, climate things that are happening. So looking at that in a more integrated way, and then the core of the sensitivity exercises are built on just, yeah, what are we most sensitive, what sectors, is it agriculture, what parts of agriculture, is it livestock rearing, or is it cultivation of certain crops, sub-sectors, groups as well, is it the elderly, if you're looking at heat waves, is that the biggest problem, is it young people, areas, of course flooding areas, which parts, is it already the socio-economically poor parts of the city, is that somewhere we have to think more about, and then adaptive capacity, which I've already talked about, and that is exactly what's really stopping us, what are the biggest things, a barrier to being able to be better, and adapting to all different types of change, not just climate, and then what helps us, maybe we think, oh, in our community, you know, we have a really good, I don't know, a couple of people that are very strong leaders, and they're good at linking, that's a good thing, so not just looking at the negative, but what do we have going for us, and then together in the end, trying to put this all together, integrate it, and make something, I'm very pragmatic in the end, so I think, okay, some vulnerability assessments, they lead you up to the edge, and like, okay, no, you know, where you're vulnerable, thank you for us, and you'll figure that out, and I'm like, no, come on, you know, and some groups as well say, you know, we can't do anything, we don't have any money, there's so much conflict, but if you want to do something, so I'm like forcing, you can just have one step, okay, after this, all we decide is you three will have a next meeting, and you will work together on one tiny point, it's still an action plan, you don't have to have, of course you can't have an action plan, that's in the next 50 years, we follow this every day, what was I supposed to do today, because things change all the time, but how do we go forward, now we've actually gathered ourselves together, we've done something, so what are we going to do with it, how do we go towards positive change, even if it's just one little tiny step, so that's kind of where we end, and the participatory methods, we've used theories behind the work we've been doing, the method, very much we've built on workshops, and we're gathering the toolkit is built for gathering a workshop in whatever area, if you decide it's a sector, if you might look at the agriculture sector, who are the key actors, who should be sitting around this table, now discussing that, or is it a municipality, is it an area that you think, okay, we need to have farmer organization, people, we need to have extension officers, so it depends what you're actually focusing on, and then we use the concepts of social learning together that we are going to, how do we learn around these, through these instruments, boundary objects, to try to make these exercises in a way to try to get people across sectors, or sometimes different social economic groups, how do we try to find something, and how do we write and do exercises in a way that people are included, and then co-production of knowledge, so whether we're trying to together make something in a world where we are aware, we have different power structures, we have different things going on, you two are fighting, we already know that before we start, okay, let's keep an eye on that now, you know, make sure, and then you're not going to agree, no matter what you've decided you're not going to agree, okay fine, in the end you put down all the points, I have your three, I have your three, we put those together, we didn't meet on that today, but they're down, so you try to move forward on this. And this is the outcome of the Swedish project, ended up in this book, and then in the Baltic climate we made guidelines, so we kind of in these three parallel projects, we ended up with two outcomes, then we decided that we would integrate them, okay, finally we had quite a bit of parallel exercises, some here that we liked, some we didn't, so we decided, we're a very tiny group, we're just like four of us, okay let's get together, should we make an English version where we think, you know, we have this, and then we thought, okay this would be fun to try now, it's besides South Africa, it's mainly has been something that we've developed in the North, as in Baltic Sea region, so we're like, okay cool, let's try it out in some different contexts, and a little bit more to urban focus, so now we've made a new version of this toolbox, and we're adapting it and using it in Bolivia and India, which were like work in progress, maybe halfway through that, and this is something that's coming out at the end of the year, and this is the combined version of this kind of step-by-step toolkit, and just to say to anyone if you're interested, you know, contact me, contact organizers, we're going to have it come out on USP stick, or like as a book, and it should come out in a month, so if anyone's interested, yeah, just let me know in whatever way you would like. And how am I doing on time, okay cool, I will say very quickly, this was very fun for me to try to like look up for my projects for once, oh my goodness, let me reflect now, yes, what have we actually been doing, and what did we learn, and all these different things from all these experiences, so I had a few different ideas that we'll go quickly through, this point of departure, this was like with whatever group how you're going to use this toolkit, if you've initiated yourself or you're an external person, where are you, like if we gather now today and we decide we're going to change something here at the university, who are all of you, and what kind of knowledge do you have already about university regulations in this context, climate change, I mean for all I know half of you are climate change skeptics, so I mean it's better that we know that from the start okay, should we work on climate variability, then we can agree on that, we already know there's extremes in climate, so fine we don't need to take 20 hours discussing like climate change is the human induced or not, forget it, let's go for climate variability, but you need to know like who's on board, where are we starting from here, what kind of planning, you know, do you have any kind of plans water related, you know, plans to have that, no we don't, we're in an area that we don't have anything, okay cool, so you know where to start, very important the time, that's something that's one of my hang ups that I think oh my goodness I never realized all these processes would take enormous of course amounts of time to plan, and then the tricky part is and then whatever group it is in the world, everyone's busy, doesn't matter if you're an academic or you're a farmer, everyone's like I can only come for an hour oh my goodness in hours, you really have to plan well and then in the end you have to be flexible because I plan the hour but you're like talking hello, hello, you three quit talking quit fighting, oh you want to go for coffee, okay let's go for coffee, but you know can we do one exercise, you know can we talk a little bit about this, so you really have to do this plan and you have to think this process, you put a lot of thoughts into how is this actually going to work, and then from the participant side to really, that people are aware this is going to take something of you you're not just going to sit there looking while I facilitate you through your local plan it's like hey get your post-it notes out there people, and then some people are like we don't like post-it notes, I don't care, they're calling you write something down, write whatever you want we hang it up here, like you have to participate and you will be expected to come back to another meeting if you whatever you decide, we're going to meet for three times you have to be committed to this, otherwise nothing will happen, and especially if we come from outside it's external people, it's not me driving the force here, this is your local plan, I don't want to drive this thing, so you have to make that very clear from front, so people when they're on board, they're on board, and they're very clear about it, hey I only have time to meet three times for one hour, okay I know that from the outset, let's make the process built on that, so I think that we sometimes underestimate that, and I won't say something, yeah, internal, external instigation, of course if you as a local community member initiate the process much easier, than if I come from the outside and think, which we do sometimes as researchers we're like, oh I have a contact in South Africa, yeah that would be cool to try this out somewhere, and you start coming like very much from the outside, then you're back at step one, going to take you a lot of time to build that trust, how do you do that, how do you go about doing that, that is he you have to have trust there, otherwise you know you're just sitting, you'll end up talking like this, I will go away and write some peer reviewed paper, and you'll think, oh some crazy person came here and entertained us for a while, which maybe that gives something, and participants again here, just in the group who should be here, and who's deciding, who are the key participants, and you know and then we're, again we talked quite a bit, I heard a lot here yesterday, of course we're back to this power thing, because I was thinking yesterday we talked so much about power, we have a power thing going on in this room, we have certain people of us that stand here, and this one did this, and she's been in 11 countries, so I get to stand here and talk, and you all have to listen, I mean for at least 30 minutes, so we have that going on here, all but we sometimes pretend, no no, not in our group, but in every group, you know who's the quiet one, why are you being quiet, okay you're tired, oh is it because you're tired, or you don't dare speak in front of this person, etc, so all these things that we try to ignore as well, because we don't have much time, we have an hour, you know to start picking at this, but without really knowing this, and you can't really get any kind of group, or community local plan, so this is like, I think it's facilitator, like in some of the projects we have facilitated, and more and more we've been going away from, hey why should I do this, I'm an external person, why should I be facilitating in Australia, so it's like you, but you think about these things, they're so important, and I think these things are the messy stuff we don't really like to talk about, so one part of our, the new version of our toolkit, it's like they're getting started part, these are the things you really have to think about, and as well like participants where are they from, how will this link back to the organizations they come from, what we do, which is the next slide, which is just whatever we decide, okay we're a person we made it, yeah but you have to go back to your whole organizations, how does that fit, oh I was sitting in another group and we made this action plan, so you know that there's, and this is the main thing, besides individual learning, which of course you can have in whatever group, but if you want something to live a larger life, then it could, you know, then just this little tiny process of whatever it was, you have to link it back into what you're doing when you go back to the Department of Agriculture, you know, where are you in your planning, how will this fit, and hopefully you've talked to your boss about this, you know, or your group or whatever, how can you link it back to make it be something bigger, and very quickly we had a master's student that looked at the organizational learning related to this project, the Baltic Climate, and this was one of the first versions we had in the toolkit, and they were like, yeah we didn't do this step, you know, they just made it kind of a little separate enterprise of like, okay we worked in this process, then they went back to their organizations, and then you forget, you get drowned with all your other things, so that was something we also put like a section more clearly about, they're really stressing that, this is so important to link this to what you're doing otherwise, and this is plans for next year, I thought we could do a follow up in Russia, Sweden and Finland, just yeah, what happened now, it's been a year and a half since the end of this process, did anything happen, which sometimes maybe we don't like to know, as researchers know nothing happened, we just got our peer review, yes, two more papers, it's good for us, but you know, what our participants didn't really help that much. This one is just again, getting people to try to think out of their organizational box, so a lot of the exercise is of course not so, well, brainstorming everyone comes, I'm from forestry, the biggest problems in forestry, I'm from this self, I'm thinking of heat waves, I'm thinking of this great, so you cover all this, but then in the end as a group, you can't do everything at once, so like you know, what are the most important things, what are the most important now, what are the most important you know, in 10 years, we think this is going to be an issue that's coming, and in the end you're trying to of course rank and focus as a group, and then again we come back to this, how do you agree as a group, and what are we really, is it really the dominant person that's agreeing, all these kind of things, but in the end, you know, to make some sort of meaning or some sort of step forward, to make some sort, or you consensus or decide, no we couldn't, we couldn't, why couldn't you make consensus because of this, then that's maybe the actual problem, how do you, you know, go forward on facing those conflicts, so trying to make just like some sort of positive steps forward, and the exercise is as well, oops, I'm talking too much, I will try to round up, this is as well thinking, like you have to think on all these different perspectives, global, local, what about past, future, some projects we had like climate scenarios that we offered that were like locally downscaled, sometimes we didn't, it was like okay, and people didn't want to talk climate change, they want to talk about now, climate variability, fine, I already spoke, it's climate, non-climate, we need to think up, so to wrap up the lessons learned, I've already talked so much time and commitment, so important, start, make sure you start well, take so much time on starting, you start poorly and people get ticked off, oh, she said this, you know, she didn't take consideration to us, then you have 10 years ahead of you, I mean then you suddenly just put your, you built your own giant, you know, stone in front of you that you have to crawl over the next 10 years, so really put a lot of thought, even though you're so excited, and you start, oh, what's so exciting for the community, and you know, you jump in there like popping in, oh, you know, everyone's own, so it's so important to start, take a lot, who the right people, who are the right people, make sure you have the decision makers as well, you want to involve decision makers, otherwise you get a lot of people like, we all agree, we should, you know, the university should change, no one here can make that decision, you know, so you try to really get people that can make some change, make sure you have your marginalized groups there, because of course, oh, they never come to meetings, but let's try to get them to come, so I mean, really, really put effort in there, finishing again, I already said, about integrating into your own work, and then this, we were trying to get a good system metaphor, but we were trying to get something like, in the end, we wanted to have a book, we don't think anyone in the world is going to pick up this book and think, yes, I'm going to follow exactly here, step one, step two, so in the end, we were like, because we don't know where you're at, so in the beginning, we have the toolkit, we have the hammer and everything, we're like, people don't use it like that, it's not going to be that, so we were playing around with the idea of Jell-O, and I don't know about Jell-O, I don't think you can set Jell-O and then heat it again, I don't think it sets the second time, I remember that from Home Economics, who's had a chocolate, that's perfect, so you know, you get your tools and you might think, I've got hammer, and this is what, and then that doesn't work here, we don't need a hammer, actually, where we are in our community, we need a screwdriver, okay, cool, let's adapt it, melt it down, make a screwdriver, I mean, just take the content from these exercises, we have two hours, great, so now we have them in their head, we're like, okay, you need E3 and S1, let's mix those, everyone's like, what's that, but I mean, just take the content from this book, that suits you, we don't expect it, it could never be in the world, you know, this one size fits all. And I will jump over this now, because I don't have time, but it was where we're going for here, we thought, the future is trying, of course, there are so much money put in these top-down GIS things, do they give us anything, because you can't do this bottom-up everywhere, everywhere, this is the utopia that every community, every municipality would be doing all this, I don't think we're going to get there, so maybe we can do some things very quickly from top-down, exposure works very well, okay, climate stuff, it's going to get harder, it's going to rain a bit more, maybe that's enough to start planning, or is it, so a little bit of a, how do we do that, is it possible, etc., and yes, I won't take, I will just say thank you, thank you Julie, that was fantastic, and also, I've had a few conversations around, I think, Ray Austin and a few other people about social learning, and that this is just, you know, you capture it in one moment in time, so it's really interesting to hear about how you're going back and having, look, what actually happens at the organisational level to create some change in water management and climate adaptation, so if there's any questions, yes. You mentioned that you did go back to Finland, Russia, and Sweden a year and a half later, can you actually start? We haven't, but that's a plan for next year, so far only in Estonia, and that was a master's thesis, and now when that happened, I thought, oh yeah, let's add on, because we thought maybe we can make that into an article, but it's from the seven countries, it's only one, so it's really interesting, especially because some were so differently motivated, Sweden was not very motivated, which was funny in the Baltic Sea region, because everyone's like, oh, the Swedes, you know, they're like always good at everything, they were terrible, they were so motivated, everyone was looking at us, why are the Swedes so bad, I don't know, the Russians were brilliant, like they were so like in there from day one, like wanting to do something, so that's why I thought it would be fun, and Finland was in the middle, so it would be plans for next year, for trying to follow, so. No, we only know Estonia, no, and they started out with like, we know what we need, we need bicycle paths, that's what they told us the first day, and at the end they decided they had an action plan to make bicycle paths, so they were like in that train, so it would be fun to see some of the other groups, what happened? Thank you for your talk, it was great, refreshing, I'm going to show you from the Australian Illustration Centre, I was just wondering whether you thought that the tool kept going onto the web, so that people like us can access it, use it, adapt it, and then get back to you in terms of giving you a whole range of care studies as to how it's being used in other countries, because we have a Baltic climate one, that's out there, and that's an earlier version of it, that's very interactive, but no, I think it would be a very good idea, we talked about possibilities for what we should do, but I think that would be really good, because we're just, but then in the end we're like, we can put it out there, but how do people know it's there? Because in the Baltic Sea project, it was put up on the web, and then they made USB, and I think they sent these USBs to, like they took 11 countries in Baltic Sea region, and mailed out these USBs to, I don't know, thousands of municipalities, but we have no, it would be really fun to know, especially if someone just saw it and started using it, but. There's a lot of research in Australia, particularly in the prime industry sector, looking at it at capacity, and there's a large research project in terms of communicating the outcome, so I'd be very happy to come into that, because it's always good to know what else is out there. Good, thanks. I wonder if you know off the top of your head, comparing your toolbox to, say, a toolbox for participatory methods for water planning in general, or for some other, you know, natural resource management planning, because there seem to be a lot of these toolboxes out there. I wonder what is different and special on the site. What we looked specifically were the ones that were vulnerability assessments related to climate, and then I think that for hours, at least when we started, this worked quite a while ago, what everyone else, of course, was also created. So I don't think they're uniquely different. I think what we tried to make was just very simple and very detailed. So if people are unsure, I'm like, okay, start with this, you know, with this kind of more recipe form, but in the other fields I don't know, and I would probably say with all certainty, it's not unique. I'm happy that people use other types. It's just, it's one that is offered that we think from local that a community could use. Okay, same word again. I'm just going to be sure, thank you. We, with Helen Russ and the scientific team, just run something very similar across four regions in South East Queensland, doing three separate meetings and then one overall to try and get the linkages that you talked about. And we were particularly interested in social and ecological linkages, and yet we have a team of scientists delivering much of the material. And therefore the discourse that came from the participants was basically ecologically related and not scientifically related. And we did a sticky shower curtain, so like being mind maps on a wall. And it worked really, really well and it dissipated the conflict that you mentioned because we talked about climate variability. But what I found is that when you provide a discourse and you set up a committee and you develop and spend a lot of time much more in the development of the program often than the program itself, it was this awareness of who is in the team and who is doing the speaking. Because then people coming along who might be from the Salvation Army or something like that go, I've got a religious issue over here. They talked on mainly ecological issues. And that was something that was really interesting to monitor, that's our research, is that even within the social learning process, it's not just the power and the knowledges, it was the discourse with which the projects started with. Definitely. And so the social ecological lack, the bit of social. Thank you. So maybe one more question. Just to talk about the Story Nines project which CSIRO are doing, which is taking a climate scientist with a laptop, and social scientists together and they go out to groups to do the sort of thing you're talking about. So that people can ask specific science questions of the climate scientists and actually show the models on the laptop and computer. They can play around with different sort of scenarios of future climate. And then there's the social scientists to talk about the Story Nines and so on about this. And to make the story of the future for their local community. But so far they've done it into several groups. They work with some more professional sort of people in one group and work with more community type people in the other group. And what they found was that the more community type groups were much more creative in terms of their stories and much more integrated and really much better the whole thing into the future than the more professional groups who sort of can't hunt up much more on a fun team of sort of things. So that would be another, so I certainly made a note of your project to tell them about. That sounds similar to what we did in South Africa because we had the professional group, the commercial farmers and then the small scale farmers and just to see. And we did not quite as interactive as that but we, like what are the problems on the ground today. Then we did the climate like downscaling models and delivered and then to show. They said you'd like to play with this. But then sometimes that takes over. That takes over because then you've got maps and colors and all this. And I was thinking as well on what you said because if you come and show that then you're already putting them there instead of like then exactly someone isn't. So you're also leading them even though you think we're here to give you knowledge, yes, but so it's very, very tricky. I'm not even sure how to start out like just start brainstorming. Come to a workshop that can be about anything. I don't know if anyone would come. I would come. I think we might wrap it up now.