 chapters 25 through 27 of Irenaeus Against Heresies book 2 this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Marian Martin Irenaeus Against Heresies book 2 translated by Alexander Roberts and William H. Rombo chapter 25 God is not to be sought after by means of letters syllables and numbers necessity of humility in such investigations one if anyone however sane reply to these things what then is it a meaningless and accidental thing that the positions of names and the election of the apostles and the working of the Lord and the arrangement of created things are what they are we answer them certainly not but with great wisdom and diligence all things have clearly been made by God fitted and prepared for their special purposes and his word formed both things ancient and those belonging to the latest times and men ought not to connect those things with the number 30 but to harmonize them with what actually exists or with right reason nor should they seek to prosecute inquiries respecting God by means of numbers syllables and letters for this is an uncertain mode of proceeding on account of their varied and diverse systems and because every sort of hypothesis may at the present day be in like manner devised by anyone so that they can derive arguments against the truth from these very theories in as much as they may be turned in many different directions but on the contrary they ought to adapt the numbers themselves and those things which have been formed to the true theory lying before them for system does not spring out of numbers but numbers from a system nor does God derive his being from things made but things made from God for all things originate from one and the same God to but since created things of areas and numerous they are indeed well fitted and adapted to the whole creation yet when viewed individually are mutually opposite and in harmonious just as the sound of the lyre which consists of many and opposite notes gives rise to one unbroken melody through means of the interval which separates each one from the others the lover of truth therefore ought not to be deceived by the interval between each note nor should he imagine that one was due to one artist and author and another to another nor that one person fitted the treble another the bass and yet another the tenor strings but he should hold at one and the same person formed the whole so as to prove the judgment goodness and skill exhibited in the whole work and specimen of wisdom those two who listen to the melody ought to praise and extol the artist to admire the tension of some notes to attend to the softness of others to catch the sound of others between both these extremes and to consider the special character of others so as to inquire at what each one aims and what is the cause of their variety never failing to apply our rule neither giving up the one artist nor casting of faith in the one god who formed all things nor blaspheming our creator three if however anyone do not discover the cause of all those things which become objects of investigation let him reflect that man is infinitely inferior to god that he has received grace only in part and is not yet equal or similar to his maker and moreover that he cannot have experience or form a conception of all things like god but in the same proportion as he who has formed but today and received the beginning of his creation is inferior to him who is uncreated and who is always the same in that proportion is he as respects knowledge and the faculty of investigating the causes of all things inferior to him who made him for though our man art not an uncreated being nor did us though always coexist with god as did his own word but now through his preeminent goodness receiving the beginning of thy creation though dost gradually learned from the word the dispensations of god who made thee for preserve therefore the proper order of thy knowledge and do not as being ignorant of things really good seek to rise above god himself for he cannot be surpassed nor do those seek after anyone above the creator for they will not discover such for thy former cannot be contained within limits nor although thou shouldest measure all this universe and pass through all his creation and consider it in all its depth and height and length would as though be able to conceive of any other above the father himself for thou will not be able to think him fully out but indulging in trains of reflection opposed to thy nature though would prove thyself foolish and if thou persevere in such a cause though will fall into utter madness whilst thou deem as thyself loftier and greater than thy creator and imagine as that thou canst penetrate beyond his dominions chapter 26 knowledge puffeth up but love edifyeth one it is therefore better and more profitable to belong to the simple and unlettered class and by means of love to attain to nearness to god than by imagining ourselves learned and skillful to be found among those who are blasphemous against their own god in as much as they conjure up another god as the father and for this reason paul exclaimed knowledge puffeth up but love edifyeth not that he meant to invade against a true knowledge of god for in that case he would have accused himself but because he knew that some puffed up by the pretence of knowledge fall away from the love of god and imagine that they themselves are perfect for this reason that they set forth an imperfect creator with the view of putting an end to the pride which they feel on account of knowledge of this kind he says knowledge puffeth up but love edifyeth now there can be no greater conceit than this than anyone should imagine he is better and more perfect than he who made and fashioned him and imparted to him the breath of life and commanded this very thing into existence it is therefore better as I have said that one should have no knowledge whatever of any one reason why a single thing in creation has been made but should be leaving god and continuing his love than that puffed up through knowledge of this kind he should fall away from that love which is the life of man and that he should search after no other knowledge except the knowledge of Jesus Christ the son of god who was crucified for us than that by subtle questions and hair splitting expressions he should fall into impiety two for how would it be if anyone gradually elated by attempts of the kind referred to should because the lord said that even the hairs of your head are all numbered set about inquiring into the number of hairs on each one's head and endeavor to search out the reason on account of which one man has so many and another so many since all have not an equal number but many thousands upon thousands are to be found with still varying numbers on this account that some have larger and others smaller heads some have pushy heads of hair others thin and others scarcely any hair at all and then those who imagine that they have discovered the number of the hairs should endeavor to apply that for the commendation of their own sect which they have conceived or again if anyone should because of this expression which occurs in the gospel are not two sparrows sold for a fathering and not one of them forced to the ground without the will of your father take occasion to reckon up the number of sparrows caught daily whether over all the world or in some particular district and to make inquiry as to the reason of so many having been captured yesterday so many the day before and so many again on this day and should then join on the number of sparrow to his particular hypothesis would he not in that case mislead himself altogether and drive into absolute insanity those that agreed with him since men are always eager in such matters to be thought to have discovered something more extraordinary than their masters three but if anyone should ask us whether every number of all the things which have been made and which are made is known to god and whether every one of these numbers has according to his providence received that special amount which it contains and on our agreeing that such is the case and acknowledging that not one of the things which have been or are or shall be made escapes the knowledge of god but that through his providence every one of them has obtained its nature and rank and number and special quantity and that nothing whatever either has been or is produced in vain or accidentally but with exceeding suitability to the purpose intended and in the exercise of transcendent knowledge and that it was an admirable and truly divine intellect which could both distinguish and bring forth the proper causes of such a system if i say anyone on obtaining our adherence and consent to this should proceed to reckon up the sand and pebbles of the earth yeah also the waves of the sea and the stars of heaven and should endeavor to think out the causes of the number which he imagines himself to have discovered would not his labor be in vain and would not such a man be justly declared mad and destitute of reason by all possessed of common sense and the more he occupied himself beyond others in questions of this kind and the more he imagines himself to find out beyond others styling them unskillful ignorant and animal beings because they do not enter into his so useless labor the more is he in reality insane foolish struck as it were with a thunderbolt since indeed he does in no one point own himself inferior to god but by the knowledge which he imagines himself to have discovered he changes god himself and exalts his own opinion above the greatness of the creator chapter 27 proper mode of interpreting parables and obscure passages of scripture one a sound mind and one which does not expose its possessor to danger and is devoted to piety and the love of truth will legally meditate upon those things which god has placed within the power of mankind and has subjected to our knowledge and will make advancement in acquaintance with them rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study these things are such as fall plainly under our observation and are clearly and unambiguously in express terms set forth in the sacred scriptures and therefore the parables ought not to be adapted to ambiguous expressions for if this be not done both he who explains them will do so without danger and the parables will receive a like interpretation from all and the body of truth remains entire with a harmonious adaptation of its members and without any collision of its several parts but to apply expressions which are not clear or evident to interpretations of the parables such as everyone discovers for himself as inclination leads him is absurd for in this way no one will possess the rule of truth but in accordance with the number of persons who explain the parables will be found the various systems of truth in mutual opposition to each other and setting forth antagonistic doctrines like the questions current among the Gentile philosophers two according to this course of procedure therefore man would always be inquiring but never finding because he has rejected the very method of discovery and when the bright groom comes he who has his lamp untrimmed and not burning with the brightness of a steady light is classed among those who obscure the interpretations of the parables forsaking him who by his plain announcements freely imparts gifts to all who come to him and is excluded from his marriage chamber since therefore the entire scriptures the prophets and the gospels can be clearly unambiguously and harmoniously understood by all although all do not believe them and since they proclaim that one only God to the exclusion of all others formed all things by his word whether visible or invisible heavenly or earthly in the water or under the earth as i have shown from the very words of scripture and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies by what falls under our notice that one being made and governs it those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration and will not behold the light of the announcement made to them but they put fetters upon themselves and every one of them imagines by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables that he has found out a god of his own for that there is nothing whatever openly expressly and without controversy said in any part of scripture respecting the father conceived of by those who hold a contrary opinion they themselves testify when they maintain that the saviour privately taught these same things not to all but to certain only of his disciples who could comprehend them and who understood what was intended by him through means of arguments enigmas and parables they come in fine to this that they maintain there is one being who is proclaimed as god and another as father he who is set forth as such through means of parables and enigmas three but since parables admit of many interpretations what lover of truth will not acknowledge that for them to assert god is to be searched out from these while they desert what is certain indubitable and true is the part of men who eagerly throw themselves into danger and act as if destitute of reason and is not such a course of conduct not to build one's house upon a rock which is firm strong and placed in an open position but upon the shifting sand hence the overthrow of such a building is a matter of ease. End of book two chapters 25 through 27 chapters 28 through 29 of Irenaeus against heresies book two this is the LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Marion Martin Irenaeus against heresies book two translated by Alexander Roberts and William H. Rombo chapter 28 perfect knowledge cannot be attained in the present life many questions must be submissively left in the hands of god having therefore the truth itself as our rule and the testimony concerning god said clearly before us we ought not by running after numerous and diverse answers to questions to cast away the firm and true knowledge of god but it is much more suitable that we directing our inquiries after this fashion should exercise ourselves in the investigation of the mystery and administration of the living god and should increase in the love of him who has done and still does so great things for us but never should fall from the belief by which it is most clearly proclaimed that this being alone is truly god and father who both formed this world fashioned man and bestowed the faculty of increase on his own creation and called him upwards from lesser things to those greater ones which are in his own presence just as he brings an infant which has been conceived in the womb into the light of the sun and lays up wheat in the farm after he has given it full strength on the stalk but it is one and the same creator who both fashioned the womb and created the sun and one and the same lord who both reared the stalk of corn increased and multiplied the wheat and prepared the barn if however we cannot discover explanations of all those things in scripture which have made the subject of investigation yet let us not on that account seek after any other god besides him who really exists for this is a very greatest impiety we should leave things of that nature to god who created us being most properly assured that the scriptures are indeed perfect since they were spoken by the word of god and his spirit but we in as much as we are inferior to and later in existence than the word of god and his spirit are on that very account destitute of the knowledge of his mysteries and there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly and such as required to be made known to us by revelation since many even of those things which lie at our very feet i mean such as belong to this world which we handle and see and are in close contact with transcend our knowledge so that even these we must leave to god for it is fitting that he should excel all in knowledge for how stands the case for instance if we endeavor to explain the cause of the rising of the Nile we may say a great deal plausible or otherwise on the subject but what is true sure and incontrovertible regarding it belongs only to god then again the dwelling place of birds of those i mean which come to us in spring but fly away again on the approach of autumn though it is a matter connected with this world escapes our knowledge what explanation again can we give of the flow and ebb of the ocean although everyone admits there must be a certain cause for this phenomena or what can we say is to the nature of those things which lie beyond it what more ever can we say as to the formation of rain lightning thunder gatherings of clouds vapers the bursting forth of winds and such like things or tell as to the storehouses of snow hail and other like things what do we know respecting the conditions represented for the preparation of clouds or what is the real nature of the vapors in the sky what as to the reason why the moon waxes and wanes or what as to the cause of the difference of nature among various waters metals stones and such like things on all these points we may indeed say a great deal while we search into their causes but god alone who made them can declare the truth regarding them if therefore even with respect to creation there are some things the knowledge of which belongs only to god and others which come within the range of our own knowledge what ground is there for complaint if in regard to those things which we investigate in the scriptures which are throughout spiritual we are able by the grace of god to explain some of them while we must leave others in the hands of god and that not only in the present world but also in that which is to come so that god should forever teach and man should forever learn the things taught him by god as the apostle has said on this point that when other things have been done away then these three faith hope and charity shall endure for faith which has respect to our master endures unchangeably assuring us that there is but one true god and that we should truly love him forever seeing that he alone is our father while we hope ever to be receiving more and more from god and to learn from him because he is good and possesses boundless riches a kingdom without end and instruction that can never be exhausted if therefore according to the rule which i have stated we leave some questions in the hands of god we shall both preserve our faith uninjured and shall continue without danger and all scripture which has been given to us by god shall be found by us perfectly consistent and the parable shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain and those statements the meaning of which is clear shall serve to explain the parables and through the many diversified utterances of scripture there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us praising in him's that god who created all things if for instance anyone asks what was god doing before he made the world we reply that the answer to such a question lies with god himself for that this world was formed perfect by god receiving a beginning in time the scriptures teach us but no scripture reveals to us what god was employed about before this event the answer therefore to that question remains with god and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish rash and blasphemous suppositions in reply to it so as by one's imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter he should in reality set aside god himself who made all things for consider all ye who invent such opinions since the father himself is alone called god who has a real existence but whom ye style the demi-urg since moreover the scriptures acknowledge him alone as god and yet again since the lord confesses him alone as his own father and knows no other as i shall show from his very words when ye style this very being the fruit of defect and the offspring of ignorance and describe him as being ignorant of those things which are above him with the various other allegations which you make regarding him consider the terrible blasphemy ye are thus guilty of against him who is truly god ye seem to affirm gravely and honestly enough that you believe in god but then as ye are utterly unable to reveal any other god ye declare this very being in whom you profess to believe the fruit of defect and the offspring of ignorance now this blindness and foolish talking flow to you from the fact that ye reserve nothing for god but ye wish to proclaim the nativity and production both of god himself of his anoya of his logos and life and christ and ye form the idea of these from no other than a mere human experience not understanding as i said before that it is possible in the case of man who is a compound being to speak in this way of the mind of man and the thought of man and to say that thought anoya springs from mind senses intention and thymuses again from thought and word logos from intention but which logos for there is among the greeks one logos which is the principle that thinks and another which is the instrument by means of which thought is expressed and to say that a man sometimes is at rest and silent while at other times he speaks and is active but since god is all mind all reason all active spirit all light and always exists one and the same as it is both beneficial for us to think of god and as we learn regarding him from the scriptures such feelings and divisions of operation cannot fittingly be ascribed to him for our tongue as being carnal is not sufficient to minister to the rapidity of the human mind in as much as that is of a spiritual nature for which reason our word is restrained within us and is not at once expressed as it has been conceived by the mind but is uttered by successive efforts just as the tongue is able to serve it but god being all mind and all logos both speaks exactly what he thinks and thinks exactly what he speaks for his thought is logos and logos his mind and mind comprehending all things is the father himself he therefore who speaks of the mind of god and ascribes to it a special origin of its own declares him a compound being as if god were one thing and the original mind another so again with respect to logos would one attributes to him the third place of production from the father on which supposition he is ignorant of his greatness and thus logos has been far separated from god as for the prophet he declares respecting him who shall describe his generation but he pretend to set forth his generation from the father and he transfer the production of the word of men which takes place by means of a tongue to the word of god and thus are righteously exposed by your own selves as knowing neither things human nor divine but beyond reason inflated with your own wisdom you presumptuously maintain that you are acquainted with the unspeakable mysteries of god while even the lord the very son of god allowed that the father alone knows a very day and hour of judgment when he plainly declares but of that day in that hour knoweth no man neither the son but the father only if then the son was not ashamed to ascribe the knowledge of that day to the father only but declared what was true regarding the matter neither let us be ashamed to reserve for god those greater questions which may occur to us for no man is superior to his master if anyone therefore says to us how then was the son produced by the father we reply to him that no man understands that production or generation or calling or revelation or by whatever name one may describe his generation which is in fact altogether indescribable neither valentinas nor marcian nor saturninus nor basilidis nor angels nor archangels nor principalities nor powers possessed this knowledge but the father only who begat and the son who was begotten since therefore his generation is unspeakable those who strive to set forth generations and productions cannot be in their right mind in as much as they undertake to describe things which are indescribable for that a world is uttered at the bidding of thought and mind all men indeed will understand those therefore who have excogitated the theory of omissions have not discovered anything great or revealed any abstruse mystery when they have simply transferred what all understand to the only begotten word of god and while they style him unspeakable and unnameable they nevertheless set forth the production and formation of his first generation as if they themselves had assisted at his birth thus assimilating him to the word of mankind formed by omissions but we shall not be wrong if we affirm the same thing also concerning the substance of matter that god produced it for we have learned from the scriptures that god holds the supremacy over all things but whence or in what way he produced it neither has scripture anywhere declared nor does it become us to conjecture so as in accordance with our own opinions to form endless conjectures concerning god but we should leave such knowledge in the hands of god himself in like manner also we must leave the cause why while all things were made by god certain of his creatures sinned and revolted from a state of submission to god and others indeed the great majority persevered and do still persevere in willing subjection to him who formed them and also of what nature those are who sinned and of what nature those who persevere we must I say leave the cause of these things to god and his word to whom alone he said sit at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool but as for us we still dwell upon the earth and have not yet sat down upon his throne for although the spirit of the saviour that is in him searcheth all things even the deep things of god yet as to us there are diversities of gifts differences of administrations and diversities of operations and we while upon the earth as paul also declares know in part and prophesy in part since therefore we know but in part we ought to leave all sorts of difficult questions in the hands of him who in some measure and not only bestows grace on us that eternal fire for instance is prepared for sinners both the Lord has plainly declared and the rest of the scriptures demonstrate and that God for knew that this would happen the scriptures do in like manner demonstrate since he prepared eternal fire from the beginning for those who were afterwards to transgress his commandments but the cause itself of the nature of such transgressors neither has any scripture informed us nor has an apostle told us nor has the Lord taught us it becomes us therefore to leave the knowledge of this matter to God even as the Lord does of the day and hour of judgment and not to rush to such an extreme of danger that we will leave nothing in the hands of God even though we have received only a measure of grace from him in this world but when we investigate points which are above us and with respect to which we cannot reach satisfaction it is absurd that we should display such an extreme of presumption as to lay open God and things which are not yet discovered as if already we had found out by the vain talk about emissions God himself the creator of all things and to assert that he derived his substance from apostasy and ignorance so as to frame an impious hypothesis in opposition to God moreover they possess no proof of their system which has but recently been invented by them sometimes resting upon certain numbers sometimes on syllables and sometimes again on names and there are occasions too when by means of those letters which are contained in letters by parables not properly interpreted or by certain baseless conjectures they strive to establish that fabulous account which they have devised for if anyone should inquire the reason why the father who has fellowship with the son in all things has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour and the day of judgment he will find at present no more suitable or becoming or safe reason than this since indeed the Lord is the only true master that we may learn through him that the father is above all things for the father says he is greater than I the father therefore has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge for this reason that we too as long as we are connected with the scheme of things in this world should leave perfect knowledge and such questions as have been mentioned to God and should not by any chance while we seek to investigate the sublime nature of the father fall into the danger of starting the question whether there is another God above God but if any lover of strife contradicts what I have said and also what the apostle affirms that we know in part and prophesy in part and imagine that he has acquired not a partial but a universal knowledge of all that exists being such and one as Valentinas or Ptolemaeus or Bacillides or any other of those who maintain that they have searched out the deep things of God let him not arraying himself in vain glory boast that he has acquired greater knowledge than others with respect to those things which are invisible or cannot be placed under our observation but let him by making diligent inquiry and obtaining information from the father tell us the reasons which we know not of those things which are in this world as for instance the number of hairs on his own head and the sparrows which are captured day by day and such other points with which we are not previously acquainted so that we may credit him also with respect to more important points but if those who are perfect do not yet understand the very things in their hands and at their feet and before their eyes and on the earth and especially the rule followed with respect to the hairs of their head how can we believe them regarding things spiritual and super celestial and those which with the vain confidence they assert to be above God so much then I have said concerning numbers and names and syllables and questions respecting such things as are above our comprehension and concerning their improper expositions of the parables I add no more on these points since though thyself may enlarge upon them chapter 29 refutation of the views of the heretics as to the future destiny of the soul and body let us return however to the remaining points of their system for when they declare that at the consummation of all things their mother shall re-enter the plerama and receive the saviour as her consort that they themselves as being spiritual when they have got rid of their animal souls and becoming intellectual spirits will be the consorts of the spiritual angels but the demiurg since they call him animal will pass into the place of the mother that the souls of the righteous shall psychically repose in the intermediate place when they declare that life will be gathered to like spiritual things to spiritual while material things continue among those that are material they do in fact contradict themselves in as much as they no longer maintain that souls pass on account of their nature into the intermediate place to those substances which are similar to themselves but that they do so on account of the deeds done in the body but those of the empires continue in the fire for if it is on account of their nature that all souls attain to the place of enjoyment and all belong to the intermediate place simply because they are souls as being thus of the same nature with it then it follows that faith is altogether superfluous as was also the descent of the saviour to this world if on the other hand it is on account of their righteousness that they attain to such a place of rest then it is no longer because they are souls but because they are righteous but if souls would have perished unless they had been righteous then righteousness must have power to save the bodies also which these souls inhabited for why should it not save them since they too participated in righteousness for if nature and substance are the means of salvation then all souls shall be saved but if righteousness and faith why should these not say those bodies which equally with the souls will enter into immortality for righteousness will appear in matters of this kind either impotent or unjust if indeed it saves some substances through participating in it but not others for it is manifest that those acts which are deemed righteous are performed in bodies either therefore all souls will of necessity pass into the intermediate place and there will never be a judgment or bodies too which have participated in righteousness will attain to the place of enjoyment along with the souls which have in like manner participated if indeed righteousness is powerful enough to bring dither those substances which have participated in it and then the doctrine concerning the resurrection of bodies which we believe will emerge true and certain from their system since as we hold God when he resuscitates our mortal bodies which preserve righteousness will render them incorruptible and immortal for God is superior to nature and has in himself the disposition to show kindness because he is good and the ability to do so because he is mighty and the faculty are fully carrying out his purpose because he is rich and perfect but these men are in all points inconsistent with themselves when they decide that all souls do not enter into the intermediate place but those of the righteous only for they maintain that according to nature and substance three sorts of being were produced by the mother the first which proceeded from perplexity and weariness and fear that is material substance the second from impetuosity that is animal substance but that which she brought forth after the vision of those angels who wait upon Christ is spiritual substance if then that substance which she brought forth will by all means enter into the plerama because it is spiritual while that which is material will remain below because it is material and shall be totally consumed by the fire which burns within it why should not the whole animal substance go into the intermediate place into which also they send the demiurg but what is it which shall enter within their plerama for they maintain that soul shall continue in the intermediate place while bodies because they possess material substance when they have been resolved into matter shall be consumed by that fire which exists in it but their body being thus destroyed and their soul remaining in intermediate place no part of man will any longer be left to enter in within the plerama for the intellect of man his mind thought mental intention and such like is nothing else than his soul but the emotions and operations of the soul itself have no substance apart from the soul what part of them then will still remain to enter into the plerama for they themselves in as far as their souls remaining in intermediate place while in as far as their body they will be consumed with the rest of matter end of book two chapters 28 through 29 chapters 30 through 31 of Irenaeus against Heresy's book two this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by David Nash Irenaeus against Heresy's book two translated by Alexander Roberts and William H. Rambeau chapter 30 absurdity of their styling themselves spiritual while the demiurge is declared to be animal one such being the state of the case these infatuated men declare that they rise above the creator demiurge and in as much as they proclaimed themselves superior to that god who made an adorned of the heavens and the earth and all things that are in them and maintain that they themselves are spiritual while they are in fact shamefully carnal on account of their so great impiety affirming that he who has made his angel spirits and is clothed with light as a garment and holds the circle of the earth as it were in his hand in whose sight its inhabitants are counted as grasshoppers and who is the creator and lord of all spiritual substance is of an animal nature they do beyond doubt and verily betray their own madness and as if truly struck with thunder even more than those giants who are spoken of in heathen fables they lift up their opinions against god inflated by a vain presumption and unstable glory men for whose purgation all the hellebore on earth would not suffice so that they should get rid of their intense folly two the superior person is proved by his deeds in what way then can they show themselves superior to the creator that i too through the necessity of the argument in hand may come down to the level of their impiety instituting a comparison between god and foolish men and by descending to their argument may often refute them by their own doctrines but in thus acting may god be merciful to me for i venture on these statements not with the view of comparing him to them but of convicting and overthrowing their insane opinions they for whom many foolish persons entertain so great an admiration as if forsooth they could learn from them something more precious than the truth itself that expression of scripture seek and you shall find they interpret as spoken with this view that they should discover themselves to be above the creator styling themselves greater and better than god and calling themselves spiritual but the creator animal and affirming that for this reason they rise upwards above god for that they enter in within the plenaroma while he remains in the intermediate place let them then prove themselves by their deeds superior to the creator for the superior person ought to be proved not by what is said but by what has a real existence three what work then will they point to is having been accomplished through themselves by the savior or by their mother either greater or more glorious or more adorned with wisdom than those which have been produced by him who was the disposer of all around us what heavens have they established what earth have they founded what stars have they called into existence or what lights of heaven have they caused to shine within what circles moreover have they confined them or what rains or frosts or snows each suited to the season into every special climate have they brought upon the earth and again in opposition to these what heat or dryness have they set over against them or what rivers have they made to flow what fountains have they brought forth with what flowers and trees have they adorned this subliminary world or what multitude of animals have they formed some rational and others irrational but all adorned with his beauty and who can enumerate one by one all the remaining objects which have been constituted by the power of god and are governed by his wisdom or who can search out the greatness of that god who made them and what can be told of those existences which are above heaven in which do not pass away such as angels archangels thrones dominions and powers innumerable against what one of these works then do they set themselves in opposition what have they similar to show as having been made through themselves or by themselves since even they too are the workmanship and creatures of this creator for whether the savior or their mother to use their own expressions proving them false by means of the very terms they themselves employ used this beam as they maintain to make an image of those things which are within the pluroma and of all of these beings which she saw waiting upon the savior she used him the demiurge as being in a sense superior to herself and better fitted to accomplish her purpose through his instrumentality for she would by no means form the image of such important beings through means of an inferior but by a superior agent for for being observed they themselves according to their own declarations were then existing as a spiritual conception in consequence of the contemplation of those beings who were arranged as satellites around pandora and they indeed continued useless the mother accomplishing nothing through their instrumentality an idle conception owing their being to the savior and fit for nothing for not a thing appears to have been done by them but the god who according to them was produced while as they argue inferior to themselves for they maintain that he is of an animal nature was nevertheless the active agent in all things efficient and fit for the work to be done so that by him the images of all things were made and not only were these things which were seen formed by him but also all things invisible angels archangels dominations powers and virtues by him i say as being the superior and capable of ministering to her desire but it seems that the mother made nothing whatsoever through their instrumentality as indeed they themselves acknowledge so that one may justly reckon them is having been an abortion produced by the painful travail of their mother for no a couchers performed their office upon her and therefore they were cast forth as an abortion useful for nothing and forms to accomplish no work of the mother and yet they describe themselves as being superior to him by whom so vast and admirable works have been accomplished and arranged although by their own reasoning they are found to be so wretchedly inferior five it is as if there were two iron tools or instruments the one of which was continually in the workman's hands and in constant use and by the use of which he made whatever he pleased and displayed his art and skill but the other of which remained idle and useless never being called into operation the workman never appearing to make anything by it and making no use of it in any of his labors and then one should maintain that this useless and idle and unemployed tool was superior in nature and value to that which the artisan employed in his work and by means of which he acquired his reputation such a man if any such were found would justly be regarded as imbecile and not in his right mind and so should those be judged of who speak of themselves as being spiritual and superior and of the creator as possessed of an animal nature and maintain that for this reason they will ascend on high and penetrate within the pluroma to their own husbands for according to their own statements they are themselves feminine but that God the creator is of an inferior nature and therefore remains in the intermediate place while all the time they bring forward no proofs of these assertions for the better man is shown by his works and all works have been accomplished by the creator but they having nothing worthy of reason to point to as having been produced by themselves are laboring under the greatest and most incurable madness six if however they labored to maintain that while all material things such as the heaven and the whole world which exists below it were indeed formed by the demi urge yet all things of a more spiritual nature than these those namely which are above the heavens such as principalities powers angels archangels dominations virtues were produced by a spiritual process of birth which they declare themselves to be then in the first place we prove from the authoritative scriptures that all the things which have been mentioned visible and invisible have been made by one god for these men are not more to be dependent on than the scriptures nor ought we to give up the declarations of the lord moses and the rest of the prophets who have proclaimed the truth and give credit to them who do indeed utter nothing of a sensible nature but rave about untenable opinions and in the next place if those things which are above the heavens were really made through their instrumentality then let them inform us what is the nature of things invisible recount the number of the angels and the ranks of the archangels reveal the mystery of the thrones and teach us the differences between the dominations principalities powers and virtues but they can say nothing respecting them therefore these beings were not made by them if on the other hand these were made by the creator as was really the case and are of a spiritual and holy character then it follows that he who produced spiritual beings is not himself of an animal nature and thus their fearful system of blasphemy is overthrown seven for that there are spiritual creatures in the heavens all the scriptures loudly proclaim and paul expressly testifies that there are spiritual things when he declares that he was caught up into the third heaven and again that he was carried away to paradise and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter but what did that profit him either his entrance into paradise or his assumption into the third heaven since all these things are still but under the power of the demiurge if as some venture to maintain he had already begun to be a spectator and hear of those mysteries which are affirmed to be above the demiurge for if it is true that he was becoming acquainted with that order of things which is above the demiurge he would by no means have remained in the regions of the demiurge and that so as not even thoroughly to explore even these for according to their manner of speaking they're still lay before him for heavens as if he were to approach the demiurge and thus behold the whole seven lying beneath him but he might have been admitted perhaps into the intermediate place that is into the presence of the mother that he might receive instruction from her as to the things within the pluroma for that inner man which was in him and spoke in him as they say though invisible could have attained not only to the third heaven but even as far as the presence of their mother for if they maintain that they themselves that is their inner man at once ascends above the demiurge and departs to the mother much more must this have occurred to the inner man of the apostle for the demiurge would not have hindered him being as they assert himself already subject to the savior but if he had tried to hinder him the effort would have gone for nothing for it is not possible that he should have proved stronger than the providence of the father and that when the inner man is said to be invisible even to the demiurge but since he Paul has described that assumption of himself up to the third heaven as something great and preeminent it cannot be that these men ascend above the seventh heaven for they are certainly not superior to the apostle if they do maintain that they are more excellent than he let them prove themselves so by their works for they have never pretended to know anything like what he describes as occurring to himself and for this reason he added quote whether in the body or whether out of the body god knoweth unquote that the body might neither be thought to be a partaker in that vision as if it could have participated in those things which it had seen and heard nor again that any one should say that he was not carried higher on account of the weight of the body but it is therefore thus far permitted even without the body to behold spiritual mysteries which are the operations of god who made the heavens and the earth and formed man and placed him in paradise so that those should be spectators of them who like the apostle have reached a high degree of perfection in the love of god eight this being therefore also made spiritual beings of which as far as to the third heaven the apostle was made a spectator and heard unspeakable words which it is not possible for a man to utter in as much as they are spiritual and he himself bestows gifts on the worthy as inclination prompts him for paradise is his and he is truly the spirit of god and not an animal demiurge otherwise he should never have created spiritual things but if he really is of an animal nature then let them inform us by whom spiritual things were made they have no proof which they can give that this was done by means of the travail of their mother which they declare themselves to be for not to speak of spiritual things these men cannot create even a fly or a net or any other small and insignificant animal without observing that law by which from the beginning animals have been and are naturally produced by god through the deposition of seed in those that are of the same species nor was anything formed by the mother alone for they say that this demiurge was produced by her and that he was the lord the author of all creation and they maintain that he who is the creator and lord of all that has been made is of an animal nature while they assert that they themselves are spiritual they who are neither the authors nor the lords of any one work not only of those things which are extraneous to them but not even of their own bodies moreover these men who call themselves spiritual and superior to the creator do often suffer much bodily pain sorely against their will 9. Justly therefore do we convict them of having departed far and wide from the truth for if the savior formed the things which have been made by means of him the demiurge he has proved that in that case not to be inferior but superior to them since he is found to have been the former even of themselves for they too have a place among created things how then can it be argued that these men indeed are spiritual but that he by whom they were created is of an animal nature or again if which is indeed the only true supposition as I have shown by numerous arguments of the very clearest nature he the creator made all things freely and by his own power and arranged and finished them and his will is the substance of all things then he is discovered to be the one only god who created all things who alone is omnipotent and who is the only father rounding and forming all things visible and invisible such as may be perceived by our senses and such as cannot heavenly and earthly by the word of his power and he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom while he contains all things but he himself can be contained by no one he is the former he the builder he the discoverer he the creator he the lord of all and there is no one besides him or above him neither has he any mother as they falsely ascribe to him nor is there a second god as marcion has imagined nor is there a pluroma of 30 eons which has been shown in a vain supposition nor is there any such being as bithis or pararchy nor are there a series of heavens nor is there a virginal light nor an unnameable eon nor in fact any one of those things which are madly dreamt of by these and all the heretics but there is only one god the creator he who is above every principality and power and dominion and virtue he is father he is god he the founder he the maker he the creator who made those things by himself that is through his word and his wisdom heaven and earth and the seas and all the things that are in them he is just he is good he it is who formed man who planted paradise who made the world who gave rise to the flood who saves noah he is the god of abraham and the god of isek and the god of jacob the god of the living he it is whom the law proclaims whom the prophets preach whom christ reveals whom the apostles make known to us and in whom the church believes he is the father of our lord jesus christ through his word who is his son through him he is revealed and manifested to all whom he is revealed for those only know him to whom the son has revealed him but the son eternally coexisting with the father from of old yay from the beginning always reveals the father to angels archangels powers virtues and all to whom he wills that god should be revealed chapter 31 recapitulation and application of the foregoing arguments 1 those then who are of the school of valentinas being overthrown the whole multitude of heretics are in fact also subverted for all the arguments i have advanced against their pluroma and with respect to those things which are beyond it showing how the father of all is shut up in circumscribed by that which is beyond him if indeed there be anything beyond him and how there is an absolute necessity on their theory to conceive of many fathers and many pluromas and many creations of worlds beginning with one set and ending with another as existing on every side and that all the beings referred to continue in their own domains and do not curiously intermedal with others since indeed no common interest nor any fellowship exists between them and that there is no other god of all but that that name belongs only to the almighty all these arguments i say will in like manner apply to those who are of the school of marcion and simon and meander or whatever others there may be whom like them cut off that creation with which we are connected from the father the arguments again which i have employed against those who maintain that the father of all no doubt contains all things but that the creation to which we belong was not formed by him but by a certain other power or by angels having no knowledge of the appropriator who is surrounded as a center by the immense extent of the universe just as a stain is by the surrounding cloak when i showed that it is not a probable supposition that any other being than the father of all formed that creation to which we belong these same arguments will apply against the followers of saturnius vasildes carpocrates and the rest of the nostics who express similar opinions those statements again which have been made with respect to the emanations and the eons and the supposed state of degeneracy and the inconstant character of their mother equally overthrow vasildes and all who are falsely styled nostics who do in fact just repeat the same views under different names but do to a greater extent than the former transfer those things which lie outside of the truth to the system of their own doctrine and the remarks i have made respecting numbers will also apply to all those who misappropriate things belonging to the truth for the support of a system of this kind and all that has been said respecting the creator or demiurge to show that he alone is god and father of all and whatever remarks may yet be made in the following books i apply against the heretics at large the more moderate and reasonable among them thou wilt convert and convince so as to lead them no longer to blaspheme their creator and maker and sustainer and lord nor ascribe his origin to defect and ignorance but the fearsome terrible and irrational among them thou wilt drive far from thee that you may no longer have to endure their idle loquaciousness two moreover those also will be thus confuted who belong to simon and carpacratis and if there be any others who are said to perform miracles who do not perform what they do either through the power of god or in connection with the truth nor for the well-being of men but for the sake of destroying and misleading mankind by means of magical deceptions and with universal deceit thus impaling greater harm than good on those who believe them with respect to the point on which they lead them astray for they can neither confer sight on the blind nor hearing on the deaf nor chase away all sorts of demons none indeed except those who are sent into others by themselves if they can even do so much as this nor can they cure the weak or the lame or the paralytic or those who are distressed in any other part of the body as has often been done in regard to bodily infirmity nor can they furnish effective remedies for those external accidents which may occur and so far are they from being able to raise the dead as the lord raised them and the apostles did by means of prayer and has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity the entire church in that particular locality in treating the boon with much faster than prayer the spirit of the dead men has returned and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints that they do not even believe this can possibly be done and hold that the resurrection from the dead is simply an acquaintance with that truth which they proclaim three since therefore there exists among them error and misleading influences and a magical illusions are impiously wrought in the sight of men but in the church sympathy and compassion and steadfastness and truth for the aid and encouragement of mankind are not only displayed without fee or reward but we ourselves lay out for the benefit of others our own means and in as much as those who are cured very frequently do not possess the things which they require they receive them from us since such is the case these men are in this way undoubtedly proved to be utter aliens from the divine nature the beneficence of God and all spiritual excellence but they are all together full of deceit of every kind apostate inspiration demoniacal working in the phantasms of idolatry and are in reality the predecessors of that dragon who by means of deception of the same kind will with his tail cause a third part of the stars to fall from their place and will cast them down to the earth it behooves us to flee from them as we would from him and the greater the display with which they are said to perform their marvels the more carefully we should watch them as having been endowed with a greater spirit of wickedness if anyone will consider the prophecy referred to and the daily practices of these men he will find that their manner of acting is one and the same with the demons end of book two chapters 30 through 31 chapters 32 through 35 of Irenaeus against heresies book two this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Bill Mosley Irenaeus against heresies book two translated by Alexander Roberts and William H. Rambo chapter 32 further exposure of the wicked and blasphemous doctrines of the heretics one more over this Imbia's opinion of theirs with respect to actions namely that it is incumbent on them to have experience of all kinds of deeds even the most abominable is refuted by the teaching of the Lord with whom not only is the adulterer rejected but also the man who desires to commit adultery and not only is the actual murderer held guilty of having killed another to his own damnation but the man also who is angry with his brother without a cause who commanded his disciples not only not to hate men but also to love their enemies and enjoin them not only not to swear falsely but not even to swear at all and not only not to speak evil of their neighbors but not even to style anyone rocker and fool declaring that otherwise they were in danger of hellfire and not only not to strike but even when themselves struck to present the other cheek to those that now treated them and not only not to refuse to give up the property of others but even if their own were taken away not to demand it back again from those that took it and not only not to injure their neighbors nor to do them any evil but also win themselves wickedly dealt with to be long suffering and to show kindness towards those that injured them and to pray for them that by means of repentance they might be saved so that we should in no respect imitate the arrogance lust and pride of others since therefore he whom these men boast of as their master and of whom they affirm that he had a soul greatly better and more highly toned than others did indeed with much earnestness command certain things to be done as being good and excellent and certain things to be abstained from not only in their actual perpetration but even in the thoughts which lead to their performance as being wicked pernicious and abominable how then can they escape being put to confusion when they affirm that such a master was more highly toned in spirit and better than others and yet manifestly give instruction of a kind utterly opposed to his teaching and again if there were really no such thing as good and evil but certain things were deemed righteous and certain others unrighteous in human opinion only he never would have expressed himself thus in his teaching the righteous shall shine forth as the son in the kingdom of their father but he shall sin the unrighteous and those who do not the works of righteousness into everlasting fire where their worm shall not die and the fire shall not be quenched too when they further maintain that it is incumbent on them to have experience of every kind of work and conduct so that if it be possible accomplishing all during one manifestation in this life they may at once pass over to the state of perfection they are by no chance found striving to do those things which wait upon virtue and are laborious glorious and skillful which also are proved universally as being good for if it be necessary to go through every work and every kind of operation they ought in the first place to learn all the arts all of them I say whether referring to theory or practice whether they be acquired by self-denial or are mastered through means of labor exercise and perseverance as for example every kind of music arithmetic geometry astronomy and all such as are occupied with intellectual pursuits then again the whole study of medicine and the knowledge of plants so as to become acquainted with those which are prepared for the health of man the art of painting and sculpture brass and marble work and the kindred arts moreover they have to study every kind of country labor the veterinary art pastoral occupations the various kinds of skilled labor which are said to pervade the whole circle of human exertion those again connected with a maritime life gymnastic exercises hunting military and kingly pursuits and as many others as may exist of which with the utmost labor they could not learn the tenth or even the thousandth part in the whole course of their lives the fact indeed is that they endeavor to learn none of these although they maintain that it is incumbent on them to have experience of every kind of work but turning aside to voluptuousness and lusts and abominable actions they stand self-condemned when they are tried by their own doctrine for since they are a destitute of all those virtues which have been mentioned they will of necessity pass into the destruction of fire these men while they boast of Jesus as being their master do in fact emulate the philosophy of epicurus and the indifference of the cynics calling Jesus their master who not only turned his disciples away from evil deeds but even from wicked words and thoughts as I have already shown three again while they assert that they possess souls from the same sphere as Jesus and that they are like to him sometimes even maintaining that they are superior while they affirm that they were produced like him for the performance of works tending to the benefit and establishment of mankind they are found doing nothing of the same or alike kind with his actions nor what can in any respect be brought into comparison with them and if they have in truth accomplished anything remarkable by means of magic they strive in this way deceitfully to lead foolish people astray since they confer no real benefit or blessing on those over whom they declare that they exert supernatural power but bringing forward mere boys as the subjects on whom they practice and deceiving their sight while they exhibit phantasms that instantly cease and do not endure even a moment of time they are proved to be like not Jesus our lord but Simon the magician it is certain too from the fact that the lord rose from the dead on the third day and manifested himself to his disciples and was in their sight received up into heaven that in as much as these men die and do not rise again nor manifest themselves to any they are proved as possessing souls in no respect similar to that of Jesus for if however they maintain that the lord too performed such works simply in appearance we shall refer them to the prophetical writings and prove from these both that all things were thus predicted regarding him and did take place undoubtedly and that he is the only son of god where for also those who are in truth his disciples receiving grace from him do in his name perform miracles so as to promote the welfare of other men according to the gift which each one has received from him for some do certainly and truly drive out devils so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe in Christ and join themselves to the church others have for knowledge of things to come they see visions and utter prophetic expressions others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them and they are made whole yay moreover as I have said the dead even have been raised up and remained among us for many years and what shall I more say it is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the church scattered throughout the whole world has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles neither practicing deception upon any nor taking any reward from them on account of such miraculous interpositions for as she has received freely from God freely also does she minister to others five nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations or by incantations or by any other wicked curious art but directing her prayers to the Lord who made all things in a pure sincere and straightforward spirit and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind and not to lead them into error if therefore the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits upon men and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe on him but not that of Simon or Menander or Carpacrates or of any other man whatever it is manifest that when he was made man he held fellowship with his own creation and did all things truly through the power of God according to the will of the Father of all as the prophets had foretold but what these things were shall be described in dealing with the proofs to be found in the prophetical writings chapter 33 Absurdity of the doctrine of the transmigration of souls one we may subvert their doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence for if they were sent forth with this object that they should have experience of every kind of action they must of necessity retain a remembrance of those things which have been previously accomplished that they might fill up those in which they were still deficient and not by always hovering without intermission around the same pursuits spin their labor wretchedly in vain for the mere union of a body with a soul could not altogether extinguish the memory and contemplation of those things which had formerly been experienced and especially as they came into the world for this very purpose for as when the body is asleep and at rest whatever thing is the soul sees by herself and does in a vision recollecting many of these she also communicates them to the body and as it happens that when one awakes perhaps after a long time he relates what he saw in a dream so also would he undoubtedly remember those things which he did before he came into this particular body for if that which is seen only for a very brief space of time or has been conceived of simply in a phantasm and by the soul alone through means of a dream is remembered after she has mingled again with the body and been dispersed through all the members much more would she remember those things in connection with which she stayed during so long a time even throughout the whole period of a bypassed life too with reference to these objections Plato that ancient Athenian who also was the first to introduce this opinion when he could not set them aside invented the notion of a cup of oblivion imagining that in this way he would escape this sort of difficulty he attempted no kind of proof of his supposition but simply replied dogmatically to the objection in question that when souls enter into this life they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance into the world before they affect an entrance into the body's assigned them it escaped him that by speaking thus he fell into another greater perplexity for if the cup of oblivion after it has been drunk can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done how old Plato does thou obtain the knowledge of this fact since thy soul is now in the body that before it entered into the body it was made to drink by the demon a drug which caused oblivion for if thou hast a remembrance of the demon and the cup and the entrance into life thou oddest also to be acquainted with other things but if on the other hand thou art ignorant of them then there is no truth in the story of the demon nor in the cup of oblivion prepared with art three in opposition again to those who affirm that the body itself is the drug of oblivion this observation may be made how then does it come to pass that whatsoever the soul sees by her own instrumentality both in dreams and by reflection or earnest mental exertion while the body is passive she remembers and reports to her neighbors but again if the body itself were the cause of oblivion then the soul as existing in the body could not remember even those things which were perceived long ago either by means of the eyes or the ears but as soon as the eye was turned from the things looked at the memory of them also would undoubtedly be destroyed for the soul as existing in the very cause of oblivion could have no knowledge of anything else than that only which it saw at the present moment how to could it become acquainted with divine things and retain a remembrance of them while existing in the body since as they maintain the body itself is the cause of oblivion but the prophets also when they were upon the earth remembered likewise on their returning to their ordinary state of mind whatever things they spiritually saw or heard in visions of heavenly objects and related them to others the body therefore does not cause the soul to forget those things which have been spiritually witnessed but the soul teaches the body and shares with it the spiritual vision which it has enjoyed for for the body is not possessed of greater power than the soul since indeed the former is inspired and vivified and increased and held together by the latter but the soul possesses and rules over the body it is doubtless retarded in its velocity just in the exact proportion in which the body shares in its motion but it never loses the knowledge which properly belongs to it for the body may be compared to an instrument but the soul is possessed of the reason of an artist as therefore the artist finds the idea of a work to spring up rapidly in his mind but can only carry it out slowly by means of an instrument owing to the want of perfect pliability in the matter acted upon and thus the rapidity of his mental operation being blended with the slow action of the instrument gives rise to a moderate kind of movement towards the end contemplated so also the soul by being mixed up with the body belonging to it is in a certain measure impeded its rapidity being blended with the body's slowness yet it does not lose altogether its own peculiar powers but while as it were sharing life with the body it does not itself cease to live thus too while communicating other things to the body it neither loses the knowledge of them nor the memory of those things which have been witnessed five if therefore the soul remembers nothing of what took place in a former state of existence but has a perception of those things which are here it follows that she never existed in other bodies nor did things of which she has no knowledge nor once knew things which she cannot now mentally contemplate but as each one of us receives his body through the skillful working of god so does he also possess his soul for god is not so poor or destitute in resources that he cannot confer its own proper soul on each individual body even as he gives it also its special character and therefore when the number fixed upon is completed that number which he had predetermined in his own council all those who have been enrolled for life eternal shall rise again having their own bodies and having also their own souls and their own spirits in which they had pleased god those on the other hand who are worthy of punishment shall go away into it they too having their own souls and their own bodies in which they stood apart from the grace of god both classes shall then cease from any longer be getting and being begotten from marrying and being given in marriage so that the number of mankind corresponding to the four ordination of god being completed may fully realize the scheme formed by the father chapter 34 souls can be recognized in the separate state and are immortal although they once had a beginning one the lord has taught with very great fullness that souls not only continue to exist not by passing from body to body but that they preserve the same form in their separate state as the body had to which they were adapted and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence and from which they have now ceased in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham in this account he states that dives knew Lazarus after death and Abraham in like manner and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position and that dives requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him Lazarus on whom he did not formally bestow even the crumbs which fell from his table he tells us also of the answer given by Abraham who was acquainted not only with what respected himself but dives also and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets and to receive the preaching of him who was to rise again from the dead by these things then it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body that they possess the form of a man so that they may be recognized and retain the memory of things in this world moreover that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham and that each class of souls receives a habitation such as it has deserved even before the judgment to but if any persons at this point maintain that those souls which only began a little while ago to exist cannot endure for any length of time but that they must on the one hand either be unborn in order that they may be immortal or if they have had a beginning in the way of generation that they should die with the body itself let them learn that God alone who is Lord of all is without beginning and without end being truly and forever the same and always remaining the same unchangeable being but all things which proceed from him whatsoever have been made and are made do indeed receive their own beginning of generation and on this account are inferior to him who formed them in as much as they are not unbegotten nevertheless they endure and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their creator so that he grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning and that they should so exist afterwards three for as the heaven which is above us the firmament the sun the moon the rest of the stars and all their grandeur although they had no previous existence were called into being and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God so also anyone who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits and in fact respecting all created things will not by any means go far astray in as much as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance the prophetic spirit bears testimony to these opinions when he declares for he spake and they were made he commanded and they were created he hath established them forever yay forever and ever and again he thus speaks respecting the salvation of man he asked life of thee and thou gave us time length of days forever and ever indicating that it is the father of all who imparts continuance forever and ever on those who are saved for life does not arise from us nor from our own nature but it is bestowed according to the grace of God and therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him and give thanks to him who imparted it shall receive also length of days forever and ever but he who shall reject it and prove himself ungrateful to his maker in as much as he has been created and has not recognized him who bestowed the gift upon him deprives himself of the privilege of continuance forever and ever and for this reason the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards him if ye had not been faithful in that which is little who will give you that which is great indicating that those who in this brief temporal life have shown themselves ungrateful to him who bestowed it shall justly not receive from him length of days forever and ever for but as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases so the soul herself is not life but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God therefore also the prophetic word declares of the first formed man he became a living soul teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive so that the soul and the life which it possesses must be understood as being separate existences when God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure forever since God has both willed that they should exist and should continue in existence for the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things while all other things give way to him are in subjection and devoted to his service thus far then let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul chapter 35 refutation of basillities and of the opinion that the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of different gods one moreover in addition to what has been said basillities himself will according to his own principles find it necessary to maintain not only that there are 365 heavens made in succession by one another but that an immense and innumerable multitude of heavens have always been in the process of being made and are being made and will continue to be made so that the formation of heavens of this kind can never cease for if from the efflux of the first heaven the second was made after his likeness and the third after the likeness of the second and so on with all the remaining subsequent ones then it follows as a matter of necessity that from the efflux of our heaven which he indeed terms the last another be formed like to it and from that again a third and thus there can never cease either the process or efflux from those heavens which have been already made or the manufacture of new heavens but the operation must go on odd infinitum and give rise to a number of heavens which will be all together indefinite to the remainder of those who are falsely termed Gnostics and who maintain that the prophets uttered their prophecies under the inspiration of different gods will be easily overthrown by this fact that all the prophets proclaimed one god and lord and that the very maker of heaven and earth and of all things which are therein while they moreover announced the advent of his son as I shall demonstrate from the scriptures themselves in the books which follow three if however any object that in the Hebrew language diverse expressions to represent god occur in the scriptures such as Sabayah Eloi Adonai and all other such terms striving to prove from these that there are different powers and gods let them learn that all expressions of this kind are but announcements and appellations of one and the same being for the term Eloi in the Jewish language denotes god while Elohim and Elouth in the Hebrew language signify that which contains all as to the appellation Adonai sometimes it denotes what is nameable and admirable but at other times when the letter Daelith in it is doubled and the word receives an initial guttural sound thus Adonai it signifies one who bounds and separates the land from the water so that the water should not subsequently submerge the land in like manner also Sabayah went is spelled by a Greek omega in the last syllable Sabayah denotes a voluntary agent but when it is spelled with a Greek Omicron as for instance Sabayah it expresses the first heaven in the same way to the word J oath when the last syllable is made long and aspirated denotes a predetermined measure but when it is written shortly by the Greek letter Omicron namely J off it signifies one who puts evils to flight all the other expressions likewise bring out the title of one and the same being as for example in English the Lord of powers the father of all God Almighty the most high the creator the maker and such like these are not the names and titles of a succession of different beings but of one and the same by means of which the one God and father is revealed he who contains all things and grants to all the boon of existence for now that the preaching of the apostles the authoritative teaching of the Lord the announcements of the prophets the dictated utterances of the apostles and the ministration of the law all of which praise one and the same being the God and father of all and not many diverse beings nor one deriving his substance from different gods or powers but declare that all things were formed by one and the same father who nevertheless adapts his works to the natures and tendencies of the materials dealt with things visible and invisible and in short all things that have been made were created neither by angels nor by any other power but by God alone the father are all in harmony with our statements has I think been sufficiently proved while by these weighty arguments it has been shown that there is but one God the maker of all things but that I may not be thought to avoid that series of proofs which may be derived from the scriptures of the Lord since indeed these scriptures do much more evidently and clearly proclaim this very point I shall for the benefit of those at least who do not bring a depraved mind to bear upon them devote a special book to the scriptures referred to which shall fairly follow them out and explain them and I shall plainly set forth from these divine scriptures proofs to satisfy all the lovers of truth end of book two chapters thirty two through thirty five recording by Bill Moseley Frelsberg texas