 All right folks, we're gonna get started First of all, thank you all for braving the weather. I had envisioned this to be a much more warmer occasion, but My name is Ben Olivo, I'm co-founder and editor of the San Antonio Herron We launched in June of 2018 as a nonprofit news organization in San Antonio and and So we're fast approaching our two-year anniversary in June We primarily write about downtown housing. It's sort of our the thing that we've tried to concentrate on As well as the neighborhoods around downtown because as we all know Neighborhoods are changing and so That's that's sort of what we do. I Did want to thank real quick the charity bar We are one of three nonprofits featured here the month of February and If you don't know how it works if you buy a drink they give you a token and then you can use that token To vote for us like it's a little voting area in the it off to the side inside the building here I also want to thank San Japan the anime convention. You may be wondering why They provided this The sound system for us, so thank you very much for that and Then I also wanted to I also wanted to say that I am super thrilled to have these panels here talking about housing these four Folks represent. I mean they are decision-makers when it comes to downtown policy housing policy And just housing decisions in general and but I also wanted to make sure that y'all knew that I do realize that there are other Voices that need to be heard in this type of the setting when it comes to housing And so my hope is that this is the first of you know, two three Panels like this that we do this year. I could definitely see us Hosting something on on the renters commission, which is a really hot topic right now that the the council will consider And also evictions. I mean that's something that has sort of come to light of late That I think needs deserves A town hall setting like this But again in order for us to do more events like this we need support And so I just wanted to make sure that that's there So before I introduce the panelists, I Wanted to kind of frame our conversation because 2020 is going to be a really important year when it comes to housing policy in San Antonio For one the downtown incentive policy that the city has expires in December And so the city if they haven't already will begin to assess that program and at some point I Suspected in the middle of the year for the end of the year they will present Recommendation to the council and the council will have to decide You know, do we keep the program? Do we adjust it? Do we give more? Subsidies to the developer. Do we give them less subsidy? And so that conversation is going to be happening this year also the city is I believe The city started interviews for the housing administrator if I'm not correct, okay? And so and that is one of the recommendations that came from the mayor's housing policy task force and so and also The other the main recommendation that came from the mayor's housing policy task force was a coordinated housing system Which is the concept is let's take all of these housing commissions boards all these incentive programs All these entities that are outside the city like the San Antonio housing authority and let's the city let's corral them and Sort of align them so that we can be more efficient about the way we approach housing and especially housing affordability So I think this is a great Sort of start to the year as those conversations will be had later Let's do introductions Seating arrangements are a little off, but I'll all the way yet Right next to me is Randy Smith. He is president of Weston Urban Western Urban Co built the Frost Tower and They're getting ready to build a lot of housing units in West downtown This is also the area of downtown where UTSA is expanding. So This area you're going to see it change pretty rapidly pretty soon When you consider what they're doing UTSA Next to Randy is Sophia Lopez Sophia is a housing researcher at Action Center on race and the economy And she also serves on the Senate's on your housing authority board of commissioners. Thank you Mayor Nuremberg we know the mayor And Soon after being elected mayor in 2017 he created the music the mayor's housing policy task force a five-member group That led dozens of public discussions and town hall meetings about housing affordability and in August 2018 task force released its report that laid out a framework for how San Antonio should tackle its housing issues and then finally Lori Houston Lori Houston Assistant city manager who oversees the Center City Development and Operations Department which oversees the city's incentive policy and she also oversees the neighborhood and Housing Services Department which oversees Plethora of programs that are sort of designed to keep people in their homes and As well as help people with eviction debt and stuff like that So the first question I wanted to start us off one ask the panelists What is your vision for the central part of San Antonio? Yes downtown, but also the neighborhoods because they're all sort of joined together What happens downtown impacts the neighborhoods and To y'all what Where do you look sort of your your perfect sort of the way downtown evolves from here in the next five ten or 15 years and mayor if you want to kind of start us off on that Sure, and thank you Ben and Heron for having us today Panelists as well as everyone who's attended attending today. I think this is a very diverse Audience I can tell by folks have visited with the multitude of perspectives on housing So this will be a very interesting discussion You know my view on on downtown is really derived from how we talked about downtown in SA 2020 Which ten years ago kind of laid out the community's vision for how we wanted to see San Antonio developed over the next ten years up to the year we're living right now and primarily it is a recognition that downtown is a vibrant place Where people can live and work That is once again kind of the heartbeat of San Antonio and as we've seen that Kind of develop over the last ten years through incentive policies that have really started to see development Pick up and the brains in the air and the new jobs coming in and the lots of new development Housing development which now is over 7,000 units We've started to tweak or perhaps add more description to that vision And one of them is that downtown needs to play a place where everyone can try that It's a place where it doesn't it doesn't require to be you Require you to be of a certain income bracket. This is a place where we can all find a place and it belongs to everyone So my vision for downtown is that it is a vibrant urban center an economic Development center where we have live work play opportunities and lots of employment and recreation for locals But also it's a place where a lot of mixed development of all different types single family development, but also You know multi-family development of multiple AMI levels. I think that's the kind of Downtown we're beginning to see more of Obviously, it's very difficult because downtown is some of the most expensive dirt in the city And that's why it's been very difficult for us to balance these different programs that help ultimately have kick-started The growth and the vibrancy of downtown Where you want to go and we'll just kind of come back Can you all hear me? So I'm gonna add a little bit to that I mean, it's very similar to the mayor's vision, but I live downtown for a couple years. I've lived in the Vistana I had a child that learned to walk in the Vistana and My vision for downtown when I think about that is it would have been Hopefully in five years I can I could live in the Vistana I could have walked out that door with my child in the store Been able to walk and do some shopping and able to pick up dry cleaning If I were I had a place to drop my kid off for daycare like place you can live in and so And we're getting there the more residents we add the more neighborhood services will be able to provide But when I think about my vision, I would love to be able to just walk to work Be able to do my grocery shopping not get in my car be able to take my child To daycare or to school and go home and it was a little challenging When I had her and this was about four years ago It's gotten better, but we have some more work to do So I appreciate everyone being here tonight, I'm really excited to be here. I think I approached this from a different place So you mentioned the place that I work actually I'm just gonna think two things about that So I'm I'd be happy to tell folks a little bit more about it But essentially I researched the financialization of housing and so housing gets traded from Investory to investor to investor and the ways in which that makes it more and more difficult For ordinary folks to have a place to live I think that that really informs the lens that I approach this conversation from And then I think also just serving on the housing authority I think the things that that sits in my head. I also wanted to make a comment about that right and one of seven board members I don't speak for the house and it's already I have my own opinion. I just want to be very clear about that But you know the number that just sticks in my head from our meeting agenda is the fact that Have most of our public housing properties the average income is $10,000 a year And I think any one of us would struggle to get by on just $10,000 a year I don't know what folks in this room right, but it's just an assumption of mine and I'm very worried So just one one other thing that I get to my actual mission You know, I think we also In this conversation, I just want to reflect the folks that I have talked to and heard from through meetings at housing authority properties, and I just remember this one woman in particular saying Every meeting that she goes to is food. That's not in her refrigerator And so I deeply appreciate everyone who has made the time to come here tonight And I just also am closing myself the people who cut off here in my life So my vision for downtown is one in which actually I drove around downtown last night just preparing and reflecting on this It's definitely one where nobody has to wrap themselves in a blanket and sit in the alcove of a doorway to shield themselves from the cold Those people actually have a place to live and it is a beautiful place to live. It's a place of dignity It's not sleeping in an open courtyard and then also I think People who work downtown like I'm used to seeing folks making transfers trying to catch the via lineup late at night Those folks don't have to take multiple buses to get to where they live They don't have to wait 45 minutes or more just to see their families at the end of their shift It is the place where many different people that are able to live and work and don't have to commute Long distances and then I would also just say from from that vantage point and just mentioning the financial Looking into I think it takes only a lot more public investment in housing If we're talking about the dream world that we want to see yes, it's it I Could get very into the weeds But I'll just say it's not legal to build more public housing right now But I think that that's 100% So there is a lot of quality beautiful public housing in our downtown and people are able to live in it They're able to raise their families in it. They're able to walk to work. That is my vision I mean, I would start my my my vision for a five to ten year downtown with a couple of caveats The first would be that I think my fellow panelists have probably Forgotten more about housing than I know Has been said we are about to do a bunch of things downtown as it relates to housing thus far the first eight years of our company's existence have been primarily Providing office space downtown so I would say that everything I'm about to tell you is aspirational And then and then Secondly, we all struggle to define downtown differently. So when I'm talking about downtown I'm talking about a pretty tight circle around And I think I think then my sort of vision or dream for that over a five to ten year Window is rooted in two words. I think density and diversity. So density. I think it's fairly self-explanatory I joke sometimes that we are in the surface parking lot for medication business And we aspire to do that But density I think is the Equally weighted one and I don't mean it in in the maybe easy way to think about it that maybe, you know, everybody downtown looks different I think that's just kind of table stakes. I don't think we need to talk about that anymore One of the things I think about on diversity is really schedules like Laurie and I left downtown At seven o'clock we walked two full blocks and didn't pass another human being in the on basically from Martin to Houston street and so I think if in five to ten years We can achieve a significantly greater level of density and a significantly greater level of diversity across Across all demographics calendars One levels types of employment housing types. That's sort of what we think about as the dream state gotcha You mentioned density. I we've written recently about The city council had a debate recently about the city's incentive policy for downtown housing That policy it's known as a center city housing incentive policy Short version of that is sea chip. So whenever you hear sea chip We're talking about this the city's downtown policy and the city the way it works is Developers get a tax rebate on the city portion of their property taxes It's a 75 percent of the city portion. So they still pay the other property. They still pay to the county and to the school district And the the other 25 percent goes into an affordable housing fund and these are some of the changes that happened um A couple years ago or actually a year ago and My my question and I'll I'll shoot this back to you mayor because I know that I've talked to some developers not you Randy, but other developers who say that because Developers are getting less of an incentive that that is they're They believe that that's going to make it make it harder for them to build housing downtown and Some folks have said that The city kind of wants it both ways, but we want density, but we want affordability and we can't do both at the same time That's their point of view I also Know that there's a developer out of austin Subot development who's building something across from the pearl and They're building it and they've indicated that they don't need the incentive so I guess my question to you mayor and for everyone else is Can you achieve density and affordability? At the same time and when I say affordability, I'm I realize that You know developers still need to make a profit of some kind um But can you have can you have them both at the same time? I guess it's my question Well, it's a great question. It's one that we're struggling with right now And I think that you're seeing that play out in the different versions of the c-chip that come out I would say that we have to try and we have to make that happen because number one We know that the public's appetite for using resources for projects that the public simply came up with living Is not very high And so as we've seen sort of this decade of downtown unfold and we get closer to the goal of The number of units to be built the more and more of those units that are built that you know Far exceed the rent or mortgage payment than anyone You know average san Antonio can actually afford The less they're going to support us being able to use these programs I say that in full recognition that the c-chip was created as an economic development incentive Not as a housing incentive in order to kickstart a market that really was dormant It's done its job and so we came back I guess three years ago now a little less to basically put a put a stock Pump the brakes on c-chip and say we need to reevaluate this because if all we're doing is using public resources to chert out product that is Only available to the highest incomes in san Antonio, then we're not doing justice to The intent of the public vision in I say 2020 So we came back. We included some affordability criteria It was slow to start. We've seen some pro we've seen some projects now utilize it Those projects those projects are also controversial, but we're starting to see some of the affordable units be part of the c-chip project So You know, we're going to continue to try to try to tweak this, but I think that number one Vensity is absolutely required if we're going to build a sustainable city That's these required for us to build things like a meaningful public transit system to build walkable communities Etc build quality of life frankly But we also have to make sure that if we are required as a public to use our own resources to create that market We've got to include affordability or the public won't stand for it Sofia do you want to Thank you. Um, yeah, I completely agree. So I absolutely think that your question was like our density and affordability compatible. Sure. Absolutely Um, but what I'm less interested in is seeing Strictly luxury density or density for its own sake that doesn't take into consideration the fact Of who lives in the city, right? Um, I agree that density is a critical component of building a more Sustainable city. I think getting people out of their car But what is not part of a sustainable city is a downtown that's full Of lots of tall beautiful very expensive buildings because the people who live in this community cannot afford that leads to a dynamic that is happening all across the country suburbanization of poverty And so yeah, I I completely agree with credits to some of the policies that we have that have not actually meaningful affordability and I think I for one um cringe when I when I think about the sort of Trickle down approach. I mean I personally get very frustrated when I see the number of units That have been constructed for people earning 30 percent of the area median income and then I think also on top of that wondering How much people end up paying what proportion of their income people end up paying just to afford rent? I meant to look up the number before I came right but just the fact that there are so many people in this community who spend More than this 30 percent Which in my mind is actually in many ways arbitrary But then up to 50 percent of their income per month on rent If you're a family of four if you're a single mother And you have to put food on the table. I could go on and on and on This stuff just enrages me because I think of my family members who live in this community again I think of those people who earn I think of those people who are sitting on solid reading lists For example, which is years on So I I understand that that has been the use of our public resources to try and drive this density question And I understand that it's complicated and difficult um But I that is sort of the north star vision that I want to keep in mind and that I think a lot for people in our community Right Density and affordability are absolutely Compatible I mean those are not two mutually exclusive things And and I also think It's we're discussing that that this is just a complex issue I don't think there's anybody in here that can Rattle off the name of the city in america that's doing this really well I think communities Everywhere are struggling with this and I'm encouraged that we have you know groups like this that will come together To put our best foot forward Um And I also think that if you came here tonight with this notion That the city is giving the farm away to real estate developers. I would like to immediately remove that Uh from You know your thought it that's just not the case even under what what we would call old seed share That was not the case especially as it relates to other cities especially as it relates to other cities in texas And texas poses its own Really unique set of challenges for people in the for-profit Uh real estate development So I read your article from yesterday You know, I think mr. Schoen is correct in that most folks in my line of work would really strive for a six to eight percent return on a project So I don't know where Many of you work I don't know if that's your employer or your company's business model six to eight percent But I'll tell you I came from a tech company and man we there is no nobody was gonna Was gonna really get out of bed for a six to eight percent return I will just suggest to you that in the overall picture that is a very lean Business model and I'll tell you that in texas it's even harder You know when we're talking about percentage points that close the property tax regime in texas is By depending on who's counting through the second highest or third highest In america you have new jersey and then we are currently duking it out with new hansher and then you have everybody else and so I I bring that up just to highlight sukih's point that this this whatever a solution is to our affordable housing crisis and I I currently believe that that is Uh, I miss that is miss title. There's a better title for our crisis Uh, but whatever it is is going to require everyone on this stage. It certainly will not be solved by the for-profit development community I want to ask you about your last comment. I want to see uh, lori if you want to I I want to add that It's about balance and I I like to say we have a housing crisis We don't have an affordable housing crisis We need housing And we need market rate housing downtown too because if we do not have market rate housing in our downtown area Someone's going to purchase housing and make it market rate And that could mean taking supply away from the affordable housing opportunity that we have downtown Or within those neighborhoods to meet that demand So it's about balance and looking to make sure that we are providing opportunity for Market rate housing to develop and affordable housing I also want to mention and so if you talked about You know having buildings in downtown where people can't live and I don't want that either We don't have a lot of density in downtown San Antonio yet either and there's a reason for that It's really expensive to build in that little circle downtown It's not it's expensive to build in the areas around that circle as well But it's very expensive to build Downtown and so we're not going to see a 20 or 30 story building in downtown San Antonio without Some subsidy or without it being ultra luxury and I want to add that thanks to the changes that the council made in the last Each of We can't and sent that we won't and sent that and we do have a cap on but So we have some protections in place to make sure that public dollars are not being used to support that type of luxury But it's expensive and if it wasn't We'd see more density in the downtown Gotcha I was going to say this question for last but you you brought it up, Randy I remember there was a similar housing panel. It was like a downtown development panel that happened At start of week A few months ago And it was all the all the downtown developers yourself bill shown David Adelman Um And a few others and I remember there were some comments made at that panel Um, I I don't remember if you said that but you just pretty much said Is that they didn't believe that there was an affordability, um crisis in san Antonio and you know, I When I interviewed you mayor for this last piece that we wrote, um, you talked about the importance of Not just bringing down the cost of Rents and in the form of affordable housing Down to lower income folks when you talk about the importance of bringing them up to the rent as well, right In the form of educational attainment workforce development and stuff like that So I guess, um, wanted to see if Maybe I'll talk about that a little bit and mayor if you want to start us off and then we'll Sure, I mean we're ultimately talking about the issue of poverty and san Antonio leading in that department And it's a lot of different things The the most critical thing of course is the cost of shelter cost of housing But that's not the only thing it's also a function of you know wages in the city But there's a lot of things within a city's within a family's Um Lively good that are counted cost of utilities um cost of health care cost of food And certainly cost of transportation So when it comes to an affordability crisis, you know, the cost of your rent payment is combined with all these things And if those things exceed the amount of wages that a family is earning You're going to find them on a boat and then ultimately you're going to see what we're seeing today Which is that the only category of homelessness that's rising in san Antonio is homeless families And so we do have a crisis and that means that if we're doing our jobs right We're attacking it from multiple different angles We cannot lose the sight of the fact that we need deeper affordability in different AMIs 30 30 to 50 percent 60 percent 80 percent and then up to 120 percent according to our our housing policy task force report We're doing all of that. It's really really difficult Especially in the urban core to get the deeper affordability of the 30 to 50 percent But you're starting to see those projects tied to anything that we use public resources with But I will say the most critical thing for us to do as a city Is to really work on this issue of economic mobility, which is why you've seen the city Again, uh, we're going to be asking voters to approve our pre-k initiative We've been working with our K through 12 system to provide for, uh, you know innovation and and and You know The work that Pedro is doing and other school districts are doing to tie to tie employee employment opportunities to the actual um K through 12 in high school age Uh classes and then ultimately a program like alamo promise Which will ensure that every bear county high school graduate is able to attend an alamo community college district without tuition All those things are incredibly important and then of course we can go into healthcare and what limited role the city can play in that But I don't discount the importance of us attacking each and every one of these things and And what we can do with the resources that we're providing is ensure that when at any time We're using public resources that we're ensuring that the development is creative enough to create that affordability at the Different day of my levels I want to add that the importance of the regional centers the sx moral plan I mean one of the beauties about that is we identified 13 centers Where we have these employment centers and we need to make sure that we're building affordable housing and housing opportunities around that Because those are the centers that have the transportation opportunities Those are the centers that that can support housing and support workforce And it just speaks to the importance of strategic planning and making sure that all of our You'll may need to remove the mics and kind of share But since I have to remove it I blew it I forgot to give you a pitch on why we're actually pursuing public transportation Oh, I mean the whole reason one of the most important reasons why we're we're pursuing Viable bonafide public transportation system is that there is no greater disruptor To poverty in our city than to make sure that we have a public transportation system that works Which is why we're pursuing it and and I hope we approve it But again the point being and I don't mean to you know Take a break away from glories that we have to attack the issue of affordability from all avenues wages more red payments The number of available units that are affordable and also things like Importantly transportation Really done or I'll just repeat what I said about the essay tomorrow planning efforts and making sure that we're being very strategic And having a conversation about affordability and affordable housing at each of those 13 centers And and and one thing I didn't mention is that the the C trip the incentive policy does extend to the 13 Regional centers. Yes, and and we talk about affordability and we talk about housing It doesn't help building an affordable housing Opportunity outside of those regional centers because these are the centers that have the transit opportunities These are the centers that have the workforce So it just speaks the importance of making sure that we are all talking together We have that coordinated housing system and we have a strategy that we've all adopted. Gotcha. Okay Sophia, is there an affordability crisis? Absolutely, I mean I mentioned people sleeping wrapped up in blankets in our downtown What more evidence do you need that there's an affordability crisis Um There are so many things. Um, so I love that you bring up transportation. Actually. I I spent some time reflecting a while back about how You're right. I mean transit's a public good. It is something that should be funded because people rely on it I feel similarly about housing, right? I also I just I think it's so critical to to lift up the fact that I mean, I think it was actually I can't maybe Jean Dauphin in part of the uh, mayor of the housing policy task force that talked about housing as a utility something that everybody should absolutely have access to That's such an important idea that needs to be lifted up. It is a human, right? It is a necessity You can't do anything without a home Um So yes a thousand percent it is a crisis. I you know, there are actually vacant properties on my blog um And we've been vacant for about two years now and there are people who squat there and I wrestle somewhat because I know my neighbors I've talked to my neighbors And some of them are very afraid of the potential crime that that brings but I also think that there is a terrible reality that Makes someone resort to finding a vacant home as a place to have a simple roof over their head But it shouldn't have to be the case and I think in a city where we do have homelessness We shouldn't have vacant properties We need to find something to do about that. There should be people living in those homes right now and all of the other vacant homes all across the city right sure Yeah, I think my point was I think we're labeling it wrong And that's look just my opinion. It's worth exactly what you did for it That's what we asked you to be I think we have an opportunity crisis and I I'm I'm prone to oversimplifying things the mayor listed some other good ones that clearly Need to be mentioned, but I you know, I think about This crisis really I don't think you can talk about affordable housing without talking about wages in transportation and Despite the mayor's hard work I still don't know that we're there yet as a community on an actionable mass transit plan and if we are I don't think that we're there yet on how we're going to pay for it And so I think that's going to take a village um, and then um on the opportunity front, I completely agree. This is an issue about poverty And I think until as a business community And uh, you know, we are doing our best to take a leadership role in this but until the business community sees uh poverty and things like uh pre-k and things Like pre pre-k until we start looking at matters like child care and mental health and affordable housing and pre-k as as You know economic development Matters then we're not going to get there You can but mayor do you want to respond to Randy's comment about transportation? If you want No, what Randy and I'll talk after about funding it will we have a funding plan um And I would say not to get into the weeds. This is a housing discussion, but it does It does merit a response to transportation One of the challenges for the city as you've seen, you know cities like Houston and austin go out and propose billions of dollars of improvements in transit We could do that too if we also did what they are Going to do which is propose property tax increases to fund it If we did that here in this city with 20 plus percent poverty We would be hurting the most disadvantaged members of the community that are depending on us delivering that transit system the most important work that this city will ever do on Building a bona fide mass transit system and public transportation system is being done right now Which is it placing the foundation stone? Actually building The first mass transit lines, but more important than that increasing the frequency and actually bringing to life a actual Major city urban bus system Most important thing Frequency and reliability on your bus system to make sure that working families can get to and from home work school In a reliable manner affordably And everything else builds from that once you start raising the level of Standard of living in the city on on aggregate once you see the level of wealth as it as a overall Um system we we can actually begin to make deeper investments without burdening Taxpayers, but this is what we're doing right now in order to fund a system that works for Our city for working families in a way that doesn't also burden the most disadvantaged members of the community So for you to join me I want to respond to that too Um But aren't we proposing a sales tax to fund it? One that already exists But sales taxes are regressive and I think we all know that the people who pay them if we're talking about not Making poor people pay the most for these services and you're saying that That's why you wouldn't want to increase property taxes sales taxes are actually doing just that right and which makes Texas one of the most regressive forms Most regressive states in terms of taxation in the nation. Um, it's a problem for our state However, the sales tax level in the city of san antonio is what it is. It's not going to change It's not going to go down That's going to remain the same and what we're suggesting we need to do is reprioritize some of that sales tax to go towards actual Benefit that's critical public transportation Meanwhile the other programs that are being funded can be done in a much more long-term manner with existing funding without burdening taxpayers Without raising taxes without raising fees without raising rates We need to figure out how to fund a mass transit system a public transportation system without doing that and that's what this plan will do Well, no disagreement on needing to fund a mass transit system for sure. Um, okay. That was the segue. Um Okay, what was it that I even wanted to respond to I think you made it Yes, you made a comment saying that the business community was taking leadership on finding solutions I believe it was with respect to housing and I think the thing that you said what on a variety of issues actually Do you want to clarify? I think what I'm saying is is until the business community realizes that all these issues are economic development issues That is impact their businesses in a really real way. We're not going to get there We as a city are not going to get there. That's correct. We as a community That's just such a bleak picture for the future of the city and I refuse to accept it I honestly do because I am someone who 1000 percent believes that housing is a human right and we need to find some kind of Alternative that doesn't strictly rely on the business community realizing it's an issue. I'm someone just I'm someone who deeply believes in the power of community organizing That's why I do the work that I do and I think that it takes community members actually banding together Clarifying what solutions actually work for them Bringing those to the city and making sure that we are actually prioritizing things that people need Like I said as a human right for their own survival Amen, right I don't I don't mean to say that the business community is sufficient I mean to say that they're necessary. They are part of that community you're talking about They're a big part of it and until they get behind and see that these are issues that matter I'm just saying if you have a significant portion of your community not on board. It's going to be a lot harder In the city of 1.5 million people though, I think the business community is pretty small What you're talking about is power which again is someone who works with organizers I think that's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind, right? The business community exists in the same place that the 1.5 million people of San Antonio exist and I think there's also a fundamental question of like who actually Empowers the business community who works for the business community who makes the city run and it's not just the business community It's far more people than that Do you want to chime in? Okay Just just so you all know in my original seating chart. I had Randy and Sophia and opposite ends So I'm just wondering when you're going to take questions from the audience 830 830 I got a comment for all Please don't be the first one I wanted to talk about I wanted to talk about transparency in In public subsidies I know as a journalist We're always asking for developers financial documents so that we can see How much Return they expect to get from their developments And I know Sophia you've made this point During saha meetings because saha Does partner with developers And that that incentive is different than the city's incentive that that's those are public facility corporations Which grant The partnership which includes the developer a full property tax exemption. So not just the city but Full property tax exemption The experts news actually wrote a really good piece about that recently But the point you've been did you've made a few times during these saha meetings is that We need to know what We're getting in return for our subsidy and whether that is balanced or not with what the developer is getting and I wanted to see and I guess my question is should there be more transparency because As a journalist where I'm coming from is is I want to be able to explain and articulate how these Incentive agreements work So that the public can decide Whether they're whether they agree with the current version of siege it or not Whether they feel like the developer is getting Too much incentive or maybe not enough incentive. And so I guess my my question is Should there be more should there be more transparency? In these types of incentive deals between public entities specifically the city san Antonio and developers And mayor do you want to go first? We're boring One of the benefits of the center city housing incentive policy is it isn't as a bright incentive policy You know exactly what you're going to get We put the executed agreements online. There isn't a secret to to those incentives And We do get requests from time to time on the performance for those developments. We provide those Once the contract is out of executed or once the developer is authorized that release, but the Sea chip is as a right. There's no negotiation. You take it or you leave it now anything above and beyond We make sure that that is very transparent. We take it through a council committee We take it the city council But we're not hiding anything But that was one of the benefits of that as a right policy was to make sure that everyone knew exactly What everyone else was getting there wasn't any gaming Because the developers try to get more and it's a level playing field I I guess my question was was and you're right the the city. I believe When the sea chip was reinstated in 2019 Your department put a database of all of the sea chip projects and you can click on the It shows you how much they're getting in public subsidy and it links to the The actual official agreement I guess I guess the point I was making is that missing from that equation is The return the rate of return on investment that the developer is getting and that If we're going to decide whether we agree with sea chip and other forms of development That we that's a critical piece of information and and I won't make the point because I know what developers will say is that When they put projects together financially Um, it's proprietary And not every development is put together the same way And they and that is a good point. I mean these are These people run businesses and they don't want to be sharing their secrets with, you know, their competition But on the flip side is These are public resources. These are public subsidies. And so That's more of what I was getting at that, you know, the sea chip has a two year Um term What we do during those two years is we monitor the market We look to see do these projects still need incentives And that is the information that we provide to city council When we make a recommendation on whether or not it's extended Terminated or amended and but we do that that That research Because it is public dollars and we want to make sure that you know, we know that Projects still need incentives and the last rendition of the sea chip We learned that if you're a four-story stick built building Outside of downtown you're not having an affordable housing in it. You don't need an incentive And we we had the the math to show that and so that is no longer an option We layered on a requirement for affordability or density You do need an incentive and we had the the data to show that and so we tweak our policy They make recommendations based on data and that's why it's a two-year window to give us enough time to really Measure the market and come back with a recommendation Got your other mayor Should there be more transparency in these deals? Well, I certainly believe that um when we're using public resources We need to make sure that they're used consistently and that there is um, you know, predictability for The developers that are going to be using these incentives, which is why We came back with that criteria in the new sea chip um, you know, when I look at What are we getting for our dollar? I want to see the uh, the level of affordability the density and the certain AMI levels Match what we are trying to incent with the With the sea chip and the other incentive policies to me That's my measuring stick and that's what we will be held accountable to and if it's not magic up Then we change the program Gotcha Sophia Absolutely. Um, yes, I want to Yes, we need transparency. I think it's a collaborative. It's a community-wide decision that gets made, right? I appreciate that we elect council representatives to make these decisions for us But part of a robust democracy is making sure that people are actually aware of what it is that they're getting in exchange For their tax dollars. I also am very concerned. I appreciate you being forthright and talking about the Rate of return that you will earn on your projects but I I mean, it's it's very easy to beat up on bad developers, right? But I think I want to make sure that I that nobody is buying any one luxury car when there are people who are waiting In food lines who can't afford enough food to eat at the end of the month And and if that's the truth and and I we've just met but I don't think you're lying to me You know, I I just want to see that documented. I want us to know. I think that's something that Absolutely is not an outrageous thing to put out in the public as a condition for getting incentives and Randy Y'all haven't built housing yet, but you're gearing up to that's right. So what do you what do you think about? Should there be more transparency? Yeah, Lord. When you go to the website, can you see that? Can you see what Sophia's talking about? When you go to the website, you can look project by project and you can see the the type of housing the price point for the housing and We have the contract. They've signed. We have the level of investment. We have all that information Okay, but not the not the return. Is that was that is that your? No, the return is typically in the performer And if we do receive that request, we typically Ask the developer to provide that Yeah, look, I don't know. I don't mean to disparage my peers, but There's just not a whole lot of confidential information in a pro forma. It's just math So anyone claiming proprietary around math, I would really want to have that discussion And I just think as a general policy if you're asking for public monies Then I do believe that citizenry has a right to understand. What's the return on that? I look forward to asking you that question when you'll start building Well, what well, I'll just ask you right now. You mentioned earlier the that you agree with the 68% return I know what I when I interviewed bill shown who's with silver ventures who built who's building the pearl His point was that we can his point was that they can Have a lower return Because and I think what he said was below 5% and and he said and the reason was because They're long-term holders of the pearl like they're building it to own it long long term They're not looking to build it and sell it right away Like a lot of developers do and so What what what is that returning to beef for y'all as you build out in west downtown? You know, I wasn't there when you talked to bill So I won't and you know I have I admired him a great deal But I would suggest there's another reason Why they are unique? Okay, and you know the the real reason The person that's missing from this panel And I know you you study this a lot is are really the banks Okay, so The truth of the matter is without outside of the public subsidy realm In the just we're going to go develop a piece of real estate realm If you are not at that six to eight point range The project's just not going to happen because nobody will loan you money to make it happen. We are not all silver ventures Uh, that is another area. Which they are unique is to my knowledge. They do not rely on lenders They actually bill shown told me that is that the south line residences, uh, which is their newest, um Property which is right on the other side of new all I think they said they got a hud loan They got a seat ship Package and the rest is their own equity That may be one of the first times I've done that um I want to we're going to do Audience questions in about 10 minutes, but I did want to ask about neighborhoods um I know as a journalist I'm not supposed to like give my opinion but as as someone who's grown up in the city And who went to jeff and who lived with his grandmother on the west side for his high school years I am a little bit concerned about the west side gentrifying um, obviously UTSA has ambitious plans to quadruple the size of their um downtown campus um, you look at things like the san pedro creek culture park Um, the renovation of all made at theater um None of I don't think anybody would disagree. These are all great things. You know, we want these things to happen um, and obviously, you know randy what western urban, uh, like like we were saying y'all have uh, quite a bit of land in the west downtown area and um, some of that is tied to the deal or the agreement that y'all made with the city and frost So y'all y'all gonna be developing some properties there I believe the municipal plaza building, um, where city council meets I don't Correct me if i'm wrong, but that's gonna stay put but the upper floors will be turned into into housing And I guess I guess my question and we'll just go down the road. I'll serve the randy. Um, our When y'all have conversations about how you're going to develop west downtown um Around where utsa is right now and even closer on the other side of the highway Do y'all have conversations about this about the impact that All this growth may have on the west side We do yes, um, you know and and so the first time We never really intended To grow our development footprint In a westerly direction. We just for for years Um, that was not our strategy Our strategy has always been to strive for density and that our our next project should be next to our last And it wasn't until Dr. Amy at utsa Convinced us that that he was serious Uh about a downtown downtown campus expansion and improvement program that we thought that uh that we rethought that strategy And so one of my first questions not not being I didn't grow up in san Antonio and I didn't know Uh where Where the west side started and so I've received a a number of of Answers to that question when I asked folks that grew up here and specifically grew up on west downtown or further west And the answer that I most commonly get is san paedra creek I don't I don't know how that would resonate with with the group, but that's I would just tell you and do it That's the answer I most commonly receive some people say the interstate But most of time You get san paedra creek. So that frames that really reframe down. We we own quite a bit of property along san paedra creek Um, I don't I don't think we're not at a point as a community if we if you look around the country Where we're at risk of like a Like a one in one out type scenario There's nobody living on these surface parking lots Uh, it's not no we are I don't think we have at least amongst our holdings We absolutely do not have a displacement risk Right, right If you have is your question Well, I I understand what you're saying and you're absolutely correct When urban renewal happened it sort of wiped out the neighborhood right wasn't there and so For many decades. There have been a lot of just Lots and just a lot of unused land and so but I guess What I'm asking is You know as y'all build and as etsa builds I mean etsa is going to is going to build like a Pedestrian bridge that it actually connects the west side on the other side of alas on the creek um, I mean so downtown will connect with the west side and What y'all are going to be doing may not directly affect the neighborhood directly, but y'all are Pretty close right and so what I'm saying is that as etsa grows and so forth Are y'all cognizant of the fact that Maybe not directly maybe not in the next five ten years. Maybe not but maybe after that What y'all do now will impact The near the near west of it. Yeah, well, we hope it does We hope it impacts it in a positive way. I mean that's our um That's our entire mission as a company Is to be a part of building a city that all of our kids will call home. And so absolutely Okay I may get back to you, but so if you do you want to Thank you A few things um Where to begin uh, can you just restate your question very succinctly? um Do you think It's inevitable that the west side will gentrify given all the different Developments that we know are heading headed that way Uh, no, I don't okay. Um, I think a couple of things could happen I think that I think that the west side could completely change, right? I I love this phrase and I'm not trying to be mean to you But I want a city that everybody's children can go home, right, which includes the people who live there um, and and I appreciate you saying you too and and I think that kind of improving the west side Really requires a conversation with people who currently live there now to figure out what Improving actually means because it doesn't just mean that there are more dense houses. That's that's not an improvement I do think the other possibility That I envision is it actually stays the exact same, which I think is unlikely But you anything could happen literally anything could happen um Who knows perhaps coronavirus really is like the precipice of a recession and we'll see what comes from that But um, but the other possibility I see is and and something that I think for the longest time I've meditated on is the fact that we really should be able To improve people's quality of life without requiring A complete and total transformation like it is unacceptable that there have been under performing schools in that area For so long and we've just accepted it. It's completely unacceptable that people's houses. I mean, I remember I'm not from san Antonio either I've lived here for five years. I'm originally from Austin but I remember and I think this is something I've had so many conversations with people about when I started to work on housing um Is that just palpable sense that you get when you drive around certain parts of this city and you see houses That look like they're literally one or two bad storms away from falling over And we've just accepted it and that's wrong. It's completely wrong So I I hope that there's improvement, but it's a community conversation to figure out what that actually means Yeah, and I I think I stated my question a little bit too, uh, plainly. I think I just had to say whatever we want when you do that I know I know I mean, obviously we want the west side to improve It is not changed much Since I was a baby and I'm 41 years old. I mean It's literally almost the same as it was when I was a kid Yes, of course, we want improvements. I guess what I'm talking about is um, how do we manage the change that is To me that is is heading in that direction I mentioned ETSA western urban and Ovia is planning to They're planning to to to do their first housing development the old scoby complex And uh, and obviously the housing authority Has plans to demolish the alles on courts And replace them with a mix with the mixed income community just like they did weekly courts on the east side And victoria courts downtown. So just want to clarify. I'm not saying don't touch the west side But mayor do you want to Yeah, sure. I think that uh, we have to acknowledge that San Antonio's, uh, unique cultural and historic heritage is part of our competitive advantage It's one of the people reason why people want to move here They visit here. It's because san Antonio is a city that's unique And it also has uh qualities that uh have been enjoyed by generations after generations So we also have to acknowledge that things are going to change I mean the city is one of the fastest growing in the country and unless we want it to continue to sprawl unsustainably into the suburbs which costs us all and contributes to the kind of Suburban poverty that we're beginning to see then we're going to have to acknowledge that density is part of the solution So how do you do that but also? Preserve your cultural heritage. It's something that I I would like to say I agree with sofia as somebody who grew up in in austin with the high school there Austin did not figure out until it was too late We have the opportunity to change that destiny. I think it's incumbent upon us to do that because we do derive so much of our uh competitive advantage from it Um the last two terms uh for the city council I've had a committee Established that ties the planning process community development land planning uh neighborhood services to Cultural preservation how we balance those two things. I don't think there's an easy answer Um, but I do think it requires us to be thoughtful About how we look at investment Um, it's not okay for things to remain the same if things remain the same Then the impacts of redlining from 70 years ago would continue to persist We would have even worsening poverty in In the west side as well as the east side In in and lots of areas in between We are deliberately taking more resources and pouring them into Infrastructure investments on the east and the west side because they've been left behind so long And we're doing that in the name of equity and when we do that it raises property values and that people who are susceptible to rising taxes who are Likely unfixed incomes are more more likely to feel the burdens of displacement So what we've done in the housing policy work is acknowledge that we can't change that dynamic overnight But we can at least have some safety nets in place things like a risk mitigation policy and a fund so that there's a resource that people can tap into so that folks that are On on the bubble and would be on the verge of displacement if Taxes went up because property values are increasing We can assist them and allow them to stay. I wholeheartedly agree with sophia It's not okay to drive by housing that is on the verge of being unsafe And say in the name of cultural preservation. We're not going to touch it That's not what we're saying What we're saying is we want to be able to preserve that housing Preserve the people that are in that housing so that they're not displaced when we actually improve that housing And so we're also as part of the housing policy task force work Putting a lot more funding most of the federal funding by the way into owner occupied rehabilitation We have innovative new programs like um, you know under one roof that will fix roving We've got programs that that basically allow a family likely there for generations likely on fixed income likely on the verge of displacement if it was just about Improvement of a property value in the tax rate increase who would be displaced if we didn't have those measures in place Not everybody's going to be touched. There is going to be displacement Our policy is that any displacement for that reason is unacceptable We will pursue that till we get it to nothing But in the meantime, we've got to have programs in place to catch people so that we don't simply accept that things have to remain the same um And cultural preservation is is part of the reason part of the thing that we're trying to protect in the process Uh, lory if you want to answer the question, but also, um, this will be the last response and then we'll start going around the room for questions Um, if you want to answer the question, but also if you can give us an update on the affordable housing plan because it is underway and I haven't heard an update lately, but um How are things going in terms of like housing production? And that those types of things a different day in my levels, etc Okay, I'm going to go to your first question and you asked randy if You know, they think about what's happening to the west side as they work on their projects And I want to answer that from the city's perspective and we absolutely do when I'll mention the alameda theater We talk about redeveloping the theater. We just recently um Have tpr moving in to the backstage of that area The alameda theater will start construction next month, but Every time that board gets together we talk about making sure that it is a place of the community and that People can afford to go to the theater people are not priced out of the theater And that it is a place for the community the same with market square. We've just gone through a major um visiting process for market square and What people love about market square is you can stroll through market square and you can see Families from all income levels. There's something there for everyone and we want to make sure that we keep that Authentic and we keep keep that thing that people love about market square there San Pedro Creek same thing. It's a place for the people. So all the projects that we work on We do think about the community and making sure that it's accessible to everyone The budget the affordable housing budget increased by about nine million dollars this year The mayor alluded to a lot of programs that it funded this fiscal year talked about the risk mitigation fund talked about our owner occupied rehab and our infill pilot program um I think it is horrible that children who are walking to school passed by vacant lots and vacant buildings And we do have funding in our budget to help purchase lots And partner with an affordable housing provider to build a home on that But a lot of the discussion this budget year was about preserving home ownership and making sure people Can stay in their home. And so we're exploring programs through a grant that we received Um called for every home for every one home grant. I think that's the name of it But it talks about community land trust. How can we create land trust to help people Whose income is limited, but their taxes continue to go up How do we make sure they can they can do in the living that home the same with A neighborhood empowerment zone program. So we have a lot of tools that we're looking at to help preserve people People's ability to stay in their home Our affordable housing plan. I mean this fiscal year alone And we just awarded over the past month about 10 and a half million dollars To nine projects that will produce about 600 affordable housing units And that was money that was provided to the city Staffed through the affordable housing budget that was adopted in this fiscal year We also have about 1400 projects separate 1400 housing units separate from that 600 Um unit number that we've helped facilitate through the four percent tax credit program and so the state of texas Um administers the nine percent competitive tax credit program and the four percent non-competitive tax credit program That requires that provides a tax credit to a developer Provided that their units on average are the 60 percent area immediate income or below and what we learned through last year's um budget was We had goals for 60 percent AMI and below We saw a lot of housing units that were between 50 and 60 percent AMI Because that tax credit rewarded For having that was a threshold just make it below 60 No one was going deeper than that now through income averaging, which was a state law I'm changed or it changed that was recently made You can have some units that are above 60 percent And you can have some that go deeper to maybe 30 40 or 50 Provided everything average is 60 percent. So that was a big change Um, that's really helped facilitate that deeper affordability So just this fiscal year alone 1400 units that if they pursue proceed with the four percent tax credit deal They will come to fruition in another about 600 The city's been able to subsidize through our federal funding So we are making a big dent. What we're currently doing now is looking at how we can recalibrate our goals The mayor's housing task force Framework was it's a great framework and it has goals for Ownership renter and it breaks it down by AMI We learned a lot the first year and so we really need to treat this as a living document So we're working with the housing commission to recalibrating those goals to see Do we need to have more 30 units and less so that 60 to 80 percent unit and the answer is yes And we learned that we were able to get a lot done just through the the tax credit alone And we need to really focus our funding on helping that 50 percent AMI family or below And so we're going to be recalibrating those goals something that I want to mention. I see jessica guerrero here who is our incoming housing commission chair We recently went through an exercise with jessica's leadership to look at our risk mitigation fund and She brought the community to to that Exercise the risk mitigation, but is the is the eviction? Yes. It was a million dollars put aside to help people with eviction City staff created that looking at best practices, but it was time to amend it and jessica brought a committee together people Who've actually lived through eviction issues and they came up with several recommendations That we're going to be implementing as a result of that work and Just speaks to the importance of including the community in those discussions and having the community look at those policies Not the practitioners. We can look at best practices But I want to commend her for that work because that was probably one of those powerful discussions And presentations I've seen because it came from them. Gotcha. Okay We're doing a audience questions here and I have a cord so you may have to Come up a little bit. Let's go right here Um, okay. Um, just a few okay. Just a few points. Um, you asked how much does your paycheck go to rent? 100 percent 100 percent of my paycheck goes to rent Every now and then I don't know how I do it, but I pay my cps bill Figure two or three times. I've already experienced almost being homeless again These apartments are way too expensive. Somebody says market rate Market rate housing is what kept me homeless longer than what I needed to be We need more affordable like real affordable housing. Not this stuff that you were explaining run um, I'm talking real affordable like Five six hundred dollars a month not thirteen hundred dollars a month for a small studio You're talking about funding public transportation That's a big one now. I heard about that. I'm researching it run Every fun public transportation. Victoria knows I blew up her phone texting her. She showed you the stories If you fund public transportation, that means you're going to home be at is that correct? Because if you do is the abuse to all the people that are living in homelessness going to stop Is the security the police officers Going to stop abusing homeless people and are you going to turn the shelters that you now have? Are you going to turn them into the very badly needed day shelters for homeless people? That would be an excellent idea. I'll be right behind that idea if you actually say yes to that. Um I'm Okay, okay, okay the west side last point west side I love the west side Don't touch the west side. I'm born and raised in Antonio You only have one point of charm left in this city and that is in the west side You're already kind of starting to ruin it in some places in the city Don't ruin the charm don't ruin you're going to lose the charm if you touch the west side anymore than what you have Thank you, uh, ma'am did you I don't really have a question per se. My name is Erica Heisel And my first career was in housing counseling I was actually a housing counselor that helped people in their first time home or keep themselves out of closure I moved here to texas for that So I helped 22 nonprofits and the variety of different states And I just I think that i'm apologize. I appreciate you Putting this panel together. I don't find this very diverse I find it to be three bureaucrats and the private industry And as the developer mentioned there are lots of people missing here I have been a landlord since 2005 and I will be starting the landlord network To put together that this is not just one-sided. You know, it's great to have people not sleeping on the street I'd like to ask the city how much you're paying haven for hope Every year to make sure the people are housed And I think that the churches my church included has been involved with maybe doing a little bit more direct help with people that need housing Not the non-pro, not the developers per se But something a little akin to the san Antonio housing authority where you help them catch up with rent I briefly worked at san ministries the first and last uh community development person there So I just kind of want to challenge you all for that and um a developer that maybe would have developed affordable housing Would have been helpful as well And so I just want to um ask the panelists whichever one wants to respond What do you say of that? What is your opinion of the private industry helping a little bit better directly to consumers It might be too big for me too. Oh you want to just ask Concisely So we it's kind of like demonizing the private industry So maybe in a in a more positive way How could the private industry be more helpful other than developing new affordable housing units? Which to be honest seeing on my church end doesn't really help the direct consumer So beyond the affordable housing units Do you have plans to put funding or additional funding or revise your programs that help directly on the street? I I guess I interpreted that question slightly differently But if the question is are we putting funding in place to help folks that are on the verge of eviction The answer is absolutely 100 percent. Yes, and that's what you were hearing laury described with the risk mitigation policy risk motivation fund the work that we're doing for preservation of homes existing homes by keeping people In their homes Generally on the issue of private sector all of the things that we're talking about up here 99 of it is being done by the private sector What we're trying to do is create a policy ecosystem And in some smaller cases programs and funding that helps facilitate a market that the private sector is building affordable housing That people can live in and can afford I think we need more more questions So my question is as a community As people from san Antonio, what can we do? To help you know Anything as far as Helping the low-income Housing how what can we do? Is there something in particular? We need to Help you as a as a community to get these programs to help other, you know The communities that are low income and all that because it's really hard. It's Being on board. It's very easy to point fingers and say Y'all are not doing enough, but how can we help you as a community? I'd like to know is there something I should get involved in is there something we can get involved in to help you Is there, you know, maybe we need to get for The word just left me So basically it's that what can we do is there's something coming up that we should need to vote on Is there something that we can do to help you all Get with you know, what you're trying to accomplish. How can we what can we do to help you? To concrete thoughts about that. I mean, I think they're concrete. You might not think they're they're not maybe things You could do literally tomorrow. Well, maybe you could talk to your neighbors You know, one of the things that I personally find very frustrating is when I hear or read about Um, so I have a lot of issues with the tax credit program And I would love to talk to anybody who wants to listen to them about those issues are very specific But I acknowledge that it is the best tool that we have unfortunately to build affordable housing in this country Um, but I I feel like on a regular basis. I read about neighborhoods that don't want poor people in them It's such a big issue and and I was zoning commissioner for a while in district one And I feel like there were so many times when I would sit in people's living rooms And I would hear these conversations about how people don't want to have renters in their community. They only want homeowners I'm a renter There are tons of people who are renters. Not all renters look like me, right? It's just a ridiculous thing to say And so I think just having conversations with all of the people that you know I think this is something that all of us should do. We need to de-stigmatize poverty People are not poor because they're bad people. People are not homeless because they are bad people Shit happens That's that's as simple as you can say it and I think spending time talking to people about that And making sure that we all understand that it is not a moral failing In my mind is the number one thing that we should all be doing and I think by virtue of doing that it helps build support Again big believer in organizing That helps build support to really form the the programs and I think the ideas that are actually going to help create transformative change We have time for one more question So I know that the regional planning effort is designed to align with other planning efforts such as SA Connect to make sure that as we face A great few decades of change and the opportunity to Make prevent the crisis from getting worse with housing in particular. There's a desire to align plans my specific question is whether you're also looking at Utilities as part of your alignment of plans. I haven't really heard a lot about a utilities committee and I know With shifting the sales tax from aquifer protection, which provides 70% of our water To funding transportation, which is also really important if there were to be an environmental incident or an issue with water I mean right now because the affordable the way rates are set up with SA's I know a lot of small duplex multifamily landlords have to be bracketed with a higher business Level of you know utilities and that translates to higher rents So are we looking at that in terms of trying to align plans to see how some of the policies that are in place Or that we desire to be in place may also cause unintended consequences and trying to get as much as possible Yes, absolutely 100% yes And I didn't think there was any question that could be asked That would be more important than us leaving on what Sophia just said Which I think is extremely important the the Great intent of inclusive housing dies in the zoning commission quite often And we need to not let that happen if there is an important charge for the public to be involved in this to make sure That good intentions don't go to die in places like zoning and planning and city council decisions But on your question about utilities absolutely From SA's SA's right now San Antonio water system is undergoing a rate advisory committee process where the restructuring of rates one of the primary issues in that is to is the question of affordability and making sure that there is a lifeline of water rates That remains affordable for even the most income disadvantage members of the community in addition to that Building the rates so that we're we're prioritizing conservation An environmental sustainability a parallel effort is about to take place Has never taken place before to my knowledge that I've asked the cps utility under go So that we protect affordability But that we're also doing so while we're trying to incent things like renewable energy And you know ensuring that we're we're Doing our part on climate action and in adaptation But I do want to say something about The aquifer and water and I can say this because I've spent most of my time as a public servant dealing with this issue we have We have determined a path That will not require a rate increase on anyone That will also not require a raise in taxes That will allow us to finally invest in public transportation But that also ensures a continuous stream And continuity for the edwards aquifer protection program It is true that from here until infinity That the cheapest most abundant and what guarantees us affordability for our water supply is the edwards aquifer protect Is the edwards aquifer we have to ensure that we protect that source One part of that is the edwards aquifer protection program Which buys conservation easements with your sales tax over areas in the uvaldea medina that ultimately recharge and know our water supply I'm sorry. I'm going into the weeds about this, but it's important We are simply saying that we should continue to buy conservation easements in the uvaldea medina and even potentially in the comal But do so with capital dollars That are financed over time rather than using the precious few dollars that we have That are the only legislative authorized operational dollars for public transit and finally build transit So we can have both. We just have to do so with collective action. And that's what we propose I am going to have to Okay, yeah, we can just wrap it up now. Um Thank you all for doing this randy. Sofia, mary lomburg And thank you all for joining us