 Okay, go ahead. Hello, this is Kristin Lays from Heritage Preservation. We're going to just wait a few more minutes for some folks to join us. You're welcome to say hello in the chat box or if you've never participated in a webinar and want to just practice typing a question in the chat box. You're welcome to do that. You should be on the left-hand side of your screen. And today we'll be talking about the care of textile collections, specifically textile handling and storage. And while we're just waiting for a few more minutes to join us, let me go ahead and put up a quick poll just so our speaker today can see the type of collections that you have related to textiles. I'll be putting up that in a second. You should see it on your screen now. And feel free to click all the way to your situation. Thank you for these answers. It looks like we've got a little bit of everything. Lots of costumes or clothing, which is pretty typical. Lots of linens and flags. There's a smaller quantity of quilts that I would have stopped. I think so too, yeah. And I would have thought there would have been more quilts and less lace, but so this is interesting. Well, hopefully we'll have some more people joining as we get started. It's a lunch hour for the East Coast and for the Midwest. So maybe some people will be checking in in a few minutes. So I will go ahead and clear the poll. But if we get more people, we want to ask more at the end of this session. We can do that too. Again, my name is Kristen Lays, and I'm from Heritage Preservation. Heritage Preservation is moderating the Connecting to Collections online community in cooperation with the American Association for State and Local History and with funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. We're grateful to the help of Learning Times, who's helped us produce the site and helped us produce all these webinars. And we're just glad to have a forum such as the online community to help small museums, libraries, archives, and historical societies quickly locate reliable preservation resources and information and have a chance to talk with experts like we have today. In developing the online community, we have pulled all of the resources that are on the Connecting to Collections bookshelf, online bookshelf. You'll find it under the Topics section. We haven't had a chance to browse the Topics section of the site. You'll see that, and you'll see the various different categories of categories we have, and linking on them will not only connect you with the resources on the bookshelf, but also with archived topics from the site, past conference presentations, and past webinars that we've done. So hopefully as we continue this, we'll be building this resource and it'll be a great resource for you. And then as you know, every couple of weeks we change our featured resource on the homepage, and currently we're featuring the Smithsonian Institution Museum Conservation Institute, otherwise known as MCI. And they have a great website called Taking Care, which takes some of their expert information and really puts it into sort of layman's terms with that. People at all levels of the museum field can access it and get some good information. The Museum Conservation Institute is an excellent resource that I'm not sure many people outside of Washington or the museum field or conservation field are very aware of. Their purpose is to provide specialized technical research and conservation for the Smithsonian collections. But they do state-of-the-art research that really benefits how conservation is conducted across the country. And they publish this on the site, share it with colleagues at conferences, but as I said, they've taken some of that excellent research and put it into some very approachable language and you can find that in this Taking Care site. It covers information on furniture, wooden artifacts, objects, paintings, paper-based artifacts, and textiles, as well as some general conservation topics. And some of the articles are even translated into Spanish, so if that's applicable to your institution, either that you have staff members that speak Spanish as a first language or if you are doing outreach to a Spanish-speaking population, it's a great way to share conservation information with them. So today we are grateful that we're being joined by Mary Ballard. She's the Senior Textiles Conservator at MCI at the Smithsonian, and she has worked there since 1984 and is a fellow in the American Institute for Conservation and the International Institute for Conservation. So in the conservation world, she's definitely considered an expert. So thank you, Mary, for joining us today. Oh, you're very welcome. I'm delighted to be here. Great. So again, if you have a question, you can type it in the chat box to the left of the screen. And I'm going to just start off with some questions I prepared for Mary. Mary, you had just provided us with a list of all the kinds of textiles and I just can't think of an institution that doesn't have some, and certainly we saw the variety that people had when I asked my poll question. But I just wondered if you could tell us some more about the importance of environment in the storage and housing of textiles, particularly how climate and where an institution might be located affects textile storage. There are many factors that affect textiles. Most textiles are already acclimated to the place that the... If the textile is coming from a local source, it will already be acclimated to the climate and keeping it consistent with that climate is very helpful. The Smithsonian deals with objects from all over the country and we have affiliate museums around the country. So we take a very broad view. The slide that's on the screen now is a slide of light level and it turns out that light is an environmental factor that's extremely important, not so much for the storage but for the display. And this is a chart of the mean daily solar radiation in Langley's and Mr. Langley was actually Secretary Langley of the Smithsonian at the turn of the century and he studied radiant energy and the total radiant energy that falls on the United States is very different from one area to another. So the kinds of rules that you would have in Maine for putting things out on display perhaps near a window would be different where the light is much dimmer and it would be down in Texas or in Arizona or Florida. You can see that down towards southern Florida the sunlight on an annual basis would be very strong and you would not want to have anything near the front door or windows or skylights or anything like that. So that's one example. There's another slide that talks about the geography and there you will see that from the viewpoint of the USDA the kinds of plants that are grown in one area of the country is very different from another area of the country and I like this slide particularly because it reminds us that the kinds of storage that they would use in Boston or in Minnesota or in New York might not be the kind of storage system that would be appropriate in other areas of the country like California or Nevada or Louisiana. We live in a very diverse country and we probably are sophisticated enough now in our museums to accommodate the different types of climate that we live in. So mainly when you're talking about the variety of climate you're talking about different temperatures but also different relative humidity rates in different parts of the country? Yes, yes. And there is a reverse relationship between the capacity between temperature and humidity. In terms of relative humidity you can hold a warmer climate, can hold much more moisture, a warmer temperature, can hold much more moisture than a colder temperature. So we compensate for that by using lots of acid-free tissue paper and lots of paper-based insulation in cold climates because the paper or the cellulose of the paper in the cardboard overcompensate for the dryness of the climate. And I actually have a slide. We have a picture that comes up about northern climate versus northern environments and southern environments. I think I have it here. Hold on a second. Sorry, just taking a minute to scroll. Let's see. Hold on a second. It turns out that even the architects build the... Is that it? Yeah. Oh, either slide will do. Okay. They build buildings differently between northern climates and southern climates. Here you'll have... This would be for a northern climate where when you're outside and it's snowing, for example, they say it's 100% humidity because it's snowing and it's... But the temperature is so cold, once you start heating that up, relative humidity gets smaller and smaller. So by the time it gets to be 70 degrees Fahrenheit, it's actually only 35% relative humidity. But if you start putting things in a closet and the closet gets too cold, you can see if you humidify that area because you're trying to be consistent with museum guidelines, you can end up with a level of humidity that can begin to support mold or mildew on books or other things. If it gets cold enough, the moisture will just sort of precipitate out. Right. You'll have condensate. So the big threat then, in managing relative humidity when it comes to textiles, then has to do with the potential that mold or mildew could grow on the materials. Correct. If you go to the next... I think there was a following slide that's really sort of interesting that has... After that's what happens... This one. You can see that if you have a dry climate, if you're in a very dry area, the amount of moisture that the textile, they call it moisture regain, that the fiber will hold is very low. But as the relative humidity picks up, so does the amount of moisture. And this is why you can see that viscose rayon, wool, and silicon cotton would be very helpful. They would be a nice kind of fiber layer in a humid climate in the sense that it would pull the moisture off of you as you perspire, whereas the nylon doesn't pick up any moisture whatsoever. However, there's a real problem with relative humidity and textiles if you go to the next slide. It absorbs at one level and it desorbs at another. So once you get up there, you actually end up with more moisture as it comes back. And there's also another aspect of moisture that's very tricky. If you can go to the next slide. I hope I'm not losing people in the background. It's not only that it absorbs really quickly, it desorbs extremely slowly. So in for cotton, it can go from that dry climate like what you would have in the Mojave Desert or something to 65% if you humidified it. It would reach equilibrium in an hour and a half. But if you were in Louisiana and you got something wet left to its own devices, it would be 99 days before that textile went down to 65% relative humidity. So if it was wet and then brought into an environment where it was still damp, it would still take 99 days for it to dry out. Which is why if you have a wet towel and you put it in a corner and you forget about it and you will end up smelling it like three months later and it will have mold all over it. And you can see that the Kevlar, the polypropylene, the polypropylene a little bit, but the silk actually desorbs relatively quickly and silk doesn't get mold and mildew. It's very difficult whereas the wool, it's relatively easy. Right, right. So I was going to ask, you know, what, you know, mold is such an issue, you know, what happens if you go into a collection of storage and you open a box and you suspect mold and mildew? What are the first steps? What walk us through that scenario? First of all, I know it's a terrible thing to have happen. And it can be very depressing to see. But you have to take, first of all, you have to take note. If you have any kind of compromising condition that may mean asthma, it could be diabetes, it could be something that affects your immune system. The most important thing is for you to just take a note where the box is, what's going on, put the lid on and get and leave. Because you are putting yourself at great risk. Not because it's toxic, but because if there's mold, the sheer quantity of the mold spores, if you can see it, the sheer quantity of the mold spores can be something that will affect your respiratory system and could make you very sick. And that's not normal for normal people. I mean, if you've got a medical condition and you're the only one who can... You're the one who knows that. And so it's up to you to compensate for that by leaving. And those little dust masks that people wear, that protects other people from you. It doesn't protect you from the... It's not sealed around the edges. So it's not sufficient to keep you from getting sick if you've got asthma or anything else. It could be HIV-AIDS. It could be diabetes, whatever it is. You simply want to leave the room. So if that's not your situation or you're able to get someone else in that... Then what you want to do, and I've had this happen, you do not want to... You want to catalog very roughly how bad the situation is. You want to figure out how large the objects are and you want to remove the objects from the damp area into a situation where it's much drier. I've had this happen actually at a historical society. They called me in and they had about 1,000 objects. The pipe had burst and it had 6 weeks before and they hadn't gone down to check. Just why you should monitor your storage on a regular basis. Someone had turned on the heating system in October and they didn't notice it until November that there was a problem. And what we ended up having to do, was a multi-use kind of facility and we took the objects all out and we took over a basketball gymnasium and we spread clean white paper and we laid the objects all out as much as we could and we then photographed the entire collection. And on the basis of that they were able to get, because there was the accession number and the condition was documented, they were able to get 100% of their request from the insurance company. And then in a systematic way, that could be once the objects were dried and they could be treated individually. So in that case, and you're just trying to get it as dry as possible, and I've heard with other wet materials before mold has started to use stands or interleaving. Is that something you should do in this case too? Stands, interleaving, blotting paper but you'd have to change it. Everything, and as we brought it out, everything had to be supported. In other words, you don't lift something up. This is one of the, I have sort of three basic rules for handling textiles in storage and one of them is to always keep the objects supported. I call it the closed task-it system, which is not a very polite way of describing it but you basically don't want to use your own arms as a support because it will just drape over like Snoopy in a cartoon or pretending he's a Snoopy dog pretending he's a vulture or something like that. It will just drape and you need to support it, especially when it's wet. Wool and silk become much weaker when they're wet, when they're damp and they can actually stretch out of shape a hundred percent. You can rip them apart simply by holding them up at one end rather than supporting them. So you put it on sort of a clean board or something? Whatever you can. If the only way you can move it is by, you keep it in the wet box if necessary or the wet lid if necessary until you can move it to some place to dry out. Right. So Rebecca in Alabama asked, if it's wet damp material, you don't want to spread the mold spores. So you're saying move it to an area that has good air flow that's drier like you used at the gym in your case? I once used the exhibition space that was, you know, it was in a band, they'd taken down one show and they had a couple of weeks before they were going to put the other show up, you know, with the temporary exhibition swing space. Right. And I took over that. Right. So because the other thing is you want an area that's secure. True, true. And I have, and you, oh, the other thing you also want is, I think I may be getting ahead of somebody talking about disaster treatment, but you want if you, you want people to help but you want a limited number and if it's a large collection, my colleagues in New Zealand actually found that when there was a flood in a monastery that they were removing objects that some people came along and pretended they were with them, remove the silver, you know, the, some of the liturgical silver. Wow, yeah. From the treasury when they were trying to empty out the textile. So then what? I think they just ended up wearing, you know, like this little safety vest or something like that or it's just people that you, you know, that it's like you have to be a staff member or something, you know, something, whatever criteria you all use, but that would be appropriate for the circumstance. Right. So then once the materials are dried out then, then are the molds forced to vacuumed off? Sometimes they can be. And sometimes it's going to be a situation where you only find it some time later and I sent you some pictures. I'm working on a collection now that was in a townhouse and it got to be too much. And when we collected, we found, when we were transferring the collection to the Smithsonian, we found a number of pieces where there was mold, but the actual object beneath had not deteriorated. It was modern. There were a collection of hats and they were... Yeah, let me bring that up here. They were, they had been wet. They got mold and bugs, but we had killed the bugs and the mold was, it was a historic artifact, but it had dried out. So yeah, I have it up here. So this is the tat that was crushed. You said it had mold and dirt on it. I, if you know, I'm not seeing it. I don't know if other people are. Oh, okay. Anyone else? There, yes. Is that coming up now? Okay. And that was, the treatment for that was simply vacuuming. That's all that was. Yeah. Because that was, but it wasn't, how can I say, it wasn't the water damage. It was the, it wasn't dripping wet. Right, the damage had been done and it had already dried out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So then it was just in a bad state. So at that point, then once you had vacuumed, I guess it was not active mold, is when you found it. Yes. But even if you have an object that's dried out completely and you vacuum off the obvious signs of mold, do you need to worry about contaminating the rest of your collection at that point? The mold is in the air. The only thing I would worry about with this was whether or not it would compromise the person's immune system. Right, right, okay. Okay. So most of the molds that you would be exposed to would be ones that are, the molds were in the air in the first place and that's how when the conditions were right, they were able to affix themselves to the textile and get started. Right, right, so that's a very good point. Yeah, they live in the environment all the time and it's just a matter of keeping your conditions inhospitable to them, proliferating. Yeah. So Connie in Pennsylvania had, so thinking of Pennsylvania and its climate, has to store their textile in a dry hot third floor storage area. They have linen wool and cotton items. Are there concerns that she should be aware of in keeping it in that environment? Connie, are you able to say what type of housing it has? Are they in boxes and tissue? The best is if you can, I always like to put management up on the third floor or where it's too hot and dry for the textile collections. I always would prefer to have the humans there. It's not a good position for them to be in. You will get degradation and one of my colleagues here at MCI did a research project on the kind of degradation that cotton would have under different humidity and temperature conditions. What he found was that you had a degradation system. It degraded the textiles, but it was more like degrading them. It's as though you're living in Egypt and so it's as though you're putting them in the tomb. It'll be a kind of degradation. It will be bad for wood. It will be bad for the textiles. You're accelerating the degradation of the objects, but you're doing it on a drier side than if you were storing them down in the basement. Neither one is agreeable. I can't say it's a factor of two or a factor of three. You had to choose two dry or two damped. I would choose either one of them. I would ask for a third option. She said that some of them are in proper archival boxes, but not all. That would take some time to find a better solution, at least putting them all in archival boxes might be a good step. Yes. At least that might provide some buffering and insulating the attic area and actually ventilating the third floor if they could do that, it might be useful. If she gets it to be a nice enough space, then the curators or the management will move in. The ventilating rather than adding maybe humidification? Is that just too hard to control? Yes, and it wouldn't... You really want to move the heat out. Actually, one of the reasons that attics get hot is because there's no place for the hot air to go. Right. Okay. We had a question from Debbie in Connecticut. We just had a webinar on test management, and so Debbie, if you weren't on that one or hadn't had a chance to watch it, it is archived on our site, but she has a situation, a historic house that has textile collection invested with cloth clothes mods. Oh. She's in trouble. No, vacuuming and freezing individual pieces isn't really possible. No. I... You can't do names and tales, so I can do one or the other, so I will do the tale, and the tale is of an objects conservator who is very proud and said, I just freeze my textile rugs that was a specialized kind of collection, and then I freeze them for a month, and then I bring them out, and I don't have to worry about all your protocols about keeping the laboratories clean and blah, blah, blah, because this is the way I take care of my maltestation, and she actually came up to me six years later called me on the phone and said, I now have to have a full-time technician putting things into the freezer, taking them out, allowing them to return to temperature and humidity conditions, and then refreezing the next group, and it's this constant thing, and I said, did you ever find the source of where the moth came from? And so they've been doing, and she hung up on me because she's never done that, so that's what you need to do. The final source. And you need to, the traps, they're not going to be interested, unless you're using what they call pheromones, which are sexual attractants, and the problem is if you get that wrong, you are attracting the moth to your site. So you really need to have an analysis of the exact moth you have with an entomologist to make a unique trap. You need to, actually, the state university system may have an urban entomology department, and they may be able to help you in terms of reviewing the severity of the situation, but if you already know that you've met their closed moths, that's pretty definitive. And the little sticky traps are going to help you or going to have to get rid of the moth infestation and then clean out the area. I did talk with one collector, and he collected oriental rugs, and he had a moth infestation, and he traced it back to a bamboo floor ceiling with a subfloor, and these bugs can live on dust bunnies and the dust from the dogs or whatever, even though he kept a very clean house, the dust had gone into the cracks and crevices, and he had to take the flooring out and redo that and recock and then put in new flooring to get rid of it. It sounds like Debbie was saying that this is a historic house museum, and the challenge may not be sealed very tightly, and they've had other issues. They were bats. Bats are a different problem. Then you've got a whole city. Actually, my church has bats, and we're waiting for the life cycle to get to the point where the babies are gone or the bat families can be dislodged safely, and that's done by someone, again, who is licensed for wildlife control, and that also would be subject to... Even if you thought you could do it, it's not a good idea because it could affect your health. Right, right. And the protocol and the life cycle is very different. The person who would do the insects wouldn't necessarily do the bats. It would be sort of unlikely. Debbie was just making the point that the issue is the house isn't tightly sealed, so it's likely the source of the moth issue is that it's just a very difficult house to try to seal tightly. In that case, in the micro-climates health situation, in that case, you've got a couple of options. You want to not have anything that's wool on permanent exhibition. You want to isolate it and keep it out of circulation. I personally, that's one of the... professionally, that's one of the reasons people recommend only three months of exhibition. A lot of people moving down from northern areas think that they can have their oriental rugs out for 12 months out of the year, and that's not a prudent thing to do. The insects are going to be active in the spring and early summer, and you want to have... You cannot clean your antique carpets every year, but you can put them in either an anoxic fumigation or a storage environment that doesn't allow for insects to grow and reproduce, so you would either store them in pterodichlorobenzene or you would seal them in... I don't believe CO2 is as effective as Viking, and I'm not necessarily a fan of doing cold storage because I know the insects can produce their own ethylene glycol, which is antifreeze, so that they can molt down and they can also go into diapause, which is like suspended animation. They're quite ingenious, so people were in historic houses. They had very few little objects, and they took care of them very carefully, and that sort of bare look is what you're going to have to probably achieve, and you also have to remember that the visitors to the house, a good percentage of them, I'd say at least 25% of them are going to have malls or carp beetles at home, and in my laboratory here I simply keep the door closed, I have sticky mats down, and I don't allow a number of people. I don't have... I restrict tourists and things like that. Because you can't do that in a historic house, you're going to have to do something else, and that's going to be to be vigilant and be very careful about when you have the objects out and what kind of objects, what kind of proximity you have. With glass with a train, I mean, I think it's important to rotate exhibits and not keep textiles on exhibits for very long, but would even well-controlled glass with a train help or not at all? No. Yeah, okay. Dave actually produced slides of the eggs are small enough. Well, the clothes malls is about the size of a font of the 11 font O, and the clothes malls are the most... How can I say? Undistinguished. I mean, in unobtruse, if they're only about a half an inch long, you don't really notice them. I mean, you have to be very observant just to know you've got an infestation. Right. So it's very discouraging, but it is possible to control the situation. Right? Well, some people have put up the museumpest.net site, which is a good resource. I think you want to be very careful, though, because not everybody on the listing is actually a licensed pest control person, and so there are problems if you're a state or city or federally funded institution and you do want to deal with licensed pesticide people. Right, right. But it's a good place to start to gather information and eventually probably need to look into a licensed person. Mary, I wanted to talk to you about also the key study. I can talk about bugs, and excuse me, but I'm always happy to talk about pest control and if there's a special problem, I don't mean to take everyone else's time, but we can follow this offline or something. Okay, great. Well, thank you. You had mentioned another interesting case study about vinegar syndrome on textiles. And maybe I had never heard of that being an issue. We talked about it in our last webinar, which talked about film materials and cellulose acetate film base being susceptible to it, but I hadn't realized this could be an issue with textiles. Do you want to talk to us about that? This, actually this also speaks to Connie's question about third floor storage. This collection from the African American History or the Black Fashion Museum collection was stored in an un-air conditioned. It was put together over a number of years and it ended up being stored on near-use street in an un-air conditioned townhouse. And Washington DC gets very hot in the summer and we packed all these things up trying to beat the heat that we knew was coming in June. We treated the collection and when we started getting it out, we realized some of the clothing actually smelled like vinegar. And it turns out that the cellulose acetate has a sort of activation trigger that if it gets warm enough, it will sort of start to break down. And once that starts, it's going to be irreversible and it can continue. So that would be, it smells like vinegar when you open a box and you... My intern at the time, her father had been a surgeon and she opened up this box and she said, oh my gosh, it smells just like Daddy's film drawer. Oh my. Uh-oh. So because all of his x-rays had, after 40 years I guess the drawer, the breakdown of the film was vinegar. Right, right. So what's the type of fabric that... This is a cellulose acetate and you may be familiar. It's normally used in... Nowadays it's used almost exclusively as a lining fabric. So it sort of looks like silk. It feels silky. And you can see this wedding dress from the back with the train is very shiny. And there were some lovely dresses from the 30s and 40s that it was an inexpensive substitute for silk. And over on the slide that says maybe used as a lining for clothing, this is from my husband gave me some pearls and they were in this little presentation box and I realized that it wasn't silk and it was a cellulose. That's the same cellulose acetate. And if you leave pearls in cellulose acetate, cellulose vinegar will dissolve pearls. So you could... It's a case where they... I don't think that... know that the jeweler was trying to have his... destroy his products so we would have to buy more of them in the future, but you wouldn't want to leave your grandmother's pearls or a collection with jewelry and pearls in its presentation case if the case actually... if it could dissolve the object. So in the cases of this vinegar syndrome, it's not reversible. So then the best thing to do is to make sure... if you can store it in a cool, dry area, that would be the best. And there are absorbent charcoal pads that can be purchased. It's kind of like a charcoal filter and filter paper. So it's laminated and you can purchase it and it's extremely expensive. Right. So... So prevention is really the key on this. And maybe also going through your collection and getting a sense if you have any of this material in your collection and prioritizing better storage at the get-go for it. Yes. And one of the... one of the other concerns and it's the... now I always forget this. The cellulose... the cellulose triacetate that dissolves in acetone or the cellulose acetate, normal cellulose acetate can be dissolved with nail polish remover. The triacetate is a little bit more stable and it can... it's more stable to heat and takes... There's a New York Times picture in last week's Sunday paper of Porgy and Beth and the nice pleats of the skirt. I'm pretty much... I think what the actress was wearing was cellulose triacetate fabric. Oh, wow. Okay, well, we just have a few more minutes. So if anyone wants to type in any lingering questions that you had for Mary, that would be great. You know, one thing I see a lot on listservs, Mary is, you know, people from small museums are, you know, looking to, you know, see what they can do on their own without involving a conservator and it'll go around about washing textiles. I know this is a flurry of conversation around the subject and what, you know, detergent you should use or what you should not do. I know it's a huge topic, but are there some sort of general guidelines that you have? I mean, it should have just never be attempted whatsoever. Do you think people just get a little zealous when they think something looks dirty or it's just a little yellowed around the edges and they shouldn't be so concerned about it being pristine? Do you have any advice in that direction? A lot of people are... their eye has become accustomed to the white of synthetics and the white of optical brightness that are in all our posing now but was not a part of 18th and 19th century life. And I would be concerned that you would try and whiten something. For example, to try and whiten lace, if you are not careful, you can put... if you use a commercial detergent, you can put optical whiteners in it. And some laces, the all-time most horrible is from a story about cleaning lace by mistake is from... they used to sell them based on the weight of the laces and somebody thought this lace looked very gray and so they were going to bleach it and the oxidizing bleach caused the lead which had been used... they had used initially lead white they used it as a powder to make the lace way more so they got more money but over time it had turned the lace gray and so by trying to bleach it, they had turned the lace bright orange. Gosh, okay. So there can be big problems associated and hopefully it won't be quite that big but you can change... permanently change the character of the object and it changes the surface characteristic and as well as the actual hue, the actual color. What about so-called archival cleaners or things you might see in the archival? The Orvis is sodium laurel sulfate which is the basis of hair shampoo and that removes... that's a very good cleaner for cotton for removing particulate matter so if you've got... if you've got something that's dusty that vacuuming doesn't remove, that may be a possibility but by submerging the textile in water you swell the fiber and the fiber will not sit back as a... the way it was when it came out and was calendered or ironed. So you end up... you can end up with a different shape. Right, so it sounds like it's a very sticky road to go down and you really should consult a conservator. And the other... but the other thing I would... oh, the... if you want to do something you might want to think just in terms of spot cleaning or cleaning a small area rather than, you know, if there's a... if it's just one problem in one area. Right, but that's I guess why vacuuming is such a... can be a useful tool just for the surface ground. And in terms of test control one of the things that you should be always doing is vacuuming the nozzle... after you vacuum with the nozzle you always, always, always wash that nozzle. And you could... that would be a time to wash it in hair shampoo or orvis. And at the end of the day and not the closed moth eggs have a certain amount of gelatin on them and you don't want to spread vacuuming could actually spread the infestation throughout a collection whereas what you really want to do is vacuum each row for example of a rug all the way down through the pile and then you also want to take that little nozzle and wash it thoroughly and then dry it before you use it on anything else. Great. Well, I'm just going to put it on the screen here I think we do this every webinar but how to locate a conservator, textile conservator in your area and we are going to be doing our next webinar on September 8th we're going to talk about emergency preparedness we are well into hurricane season so in September and October can be very active months so feel free to join us for this we're going to be talking about working with first responders with Lori Foley who's on our staff at Heritage Preservation and she'll be talking about all of the initiatives Heritage Preservation has done to reach out to the first responder community to educate them on the needs of cultural institutions so she's got lots of great firsthand experience and tips. We put up in the chat our evaluation link for today's webinar and Mary had a lot of great PowerPoint slides and we didn't get to talk about all of them and she also has some useful handouts so we'll go ahead and be posting those on the online community so that you can have these resources at your fingertips but so let's see we're going to see if you can cut and paste that link to the evaluation your browser that would be great it's not hyperlinking but if you hang around the room in a minute we can try to do it so that it's hyperlink so again my name is Kristen Lays and we hope that you are getting good use out of the Connecting to Collections online community again the evaluation is a place where you can tell us about topics you would like to see discussed or if there's an expert we can bring in to help you with some issues you've been having we'd be glad to do that for you but again thank you to Mary Ballard for your expertise today and thanks everyone for joining us have a great afternoon, bye-bye