 This morning's panel on Indonesia will be covering cultural, political and religious facets of Indonesia. It will be chaired by Andrew McIntyre, who I'll introduce to the platform to get started. It'll finish at 10, and there'll be Q&A from 10 till 10.15. Thanks. Nice to be back here with you. I'm back and forth this morning between here and the meeting with the Central Party School from Beijing. There's another meeting going on in the middle of campus, and some of your number are over in that meeting this morning that are particularly China enthusiasts. Anyway, we're focused on Indonesia here this morning. Our brief is to keep our remarks pretty short, so there's lots of chance for you folks to come in on whatever you want to come in with questions, comments or what have you. I suggest that we're going to take the three of us together. Greg has to leave at 10.15, because he's got to get over to a high-level meeting over in Prime Minister and Cabinet. They want to pick his brains on. Well, he'll tell us what they want to pick his brains on. We're going to keep Greg to the third presentation, because our hunch is that that means you'll have him freshest in your head and probably ask questions about him first before he has to leave. That's roughly our plan of action. We'll aim to speak for five to ten minutes, ten absolute max. If anyone has just a quick question of clarification along the way, you can't understand what somebody's saying or you missed it, feel free to interrupt, but otherwise I suggest we keep questions and comments till 10 o'clock and then we'll have a big bracket of discussion. One other preliminary point to make is that within the Asia and Pacific portfolio at this university, Indonesia is one of the crown jewels. There's just a huge number of Indonesia specialists here. Outside of Indonesia, there's nothing like the concentration of Indonesia specialists that are at ANU anywhere else in the world. It's a very large concentration. What we're doing is just scratching the surface of what's here. We've tried to get three different people to give you a sense of the range or some of the range of interests and expertise here, but there's all sorts of other folks here. One suggestion for you is for you to think about what you can get out of this place while you're here or when you go back to wherever you've come from, whether it's from any of the three of us or anybody else at ANU. If there's people with expertise in areas that matter for you, feel free to be back in touch with us after you get back home and try and get whatever out of it you can. Now look, I'm aware there's... where's the clock? I better... Don't let me go beyond ten minutes. I'm aware there's people in the room here who'll know a lot about Indonesia and there's also people in the room who won't know much. So we're going to try and look after both sets of interests. What I'm going to do is just some sort of broad scene setting remarks and the nature of this extraordinary political and economic transition that's taken place in Indonesia and is continuing to take place and say something about Indonesia and the world and then Ariel's going to come in and give some broader social and cultural perspectives and then Greg's going to come in and draw attention in particular to questions relating to the position of Islam in Indonesian society and the Indonesian political life. So that's roughly the map. But as I said, I was going to do some broad scene setting remarks. For those of you who don't follow Indonesia, the single most important thing to understand about Indonesia at the moment is that it has been through just the most spectacular political change. By world standards, this is an amazingly rapid, peaceful, and if you can use the word successful, transition. The number of people who've died, the number of the extent of suffering, the extent of traumatization is quite small for size of population and speed with which this has taken place by world standards. That's not to say there wasn't upheaval, but by world standards this is an extraordinary process. Again, for those of you who don't follow Indonesia, the dramatic changes come with the Asian financial crisis at the end of the last century, where Indonesia just suffers these twin radical shocks. It's at that time the most radical economic reversal recorded anywhere in the world in the 20th century, going from very rapid growth to radically negative growth. So this huge economic collapse. And not too surprisingly, that has political consequences and the long-standing military-based regime of Sahara collapses with it. What emerges from that crisis is that Indonesia transforms itself politically and rebuilds itself economically. And as I say, by world standards it was an amazing process. Many scholars of Indonesia and many Indonesians themselves are quite critical, quite disappointed, quite underwhelmed by the changes that have taken place, seeing them as being disappointing in lots of ways. And there's just no question, there's still all sorts of problems that Indonesia needs to tackle. But I would put to you that the really big point is this has been an amazingly successful transition. What has it come about? How come it was, in my terms, as successful as it's been? In simple terms, I'd give you three sorts of ideas for why it's happened the way it has. One is that there was a remarkably broad and strong, what you could call with hindsight, a social consensus on the need for democratization in some fashion in Indonesia. There was a strong public desire for this. Yes, no question, students, NGOs, the activists, political activists of various sorts, the media were at the forefront of pushing the case for reform, for political reform. But underneath that, there was a broad social interest, a broad public interest in seeing major democratic change. That would be one reason, and that would perhaps be the most important reason. A second reason is that with some trial and error, there was quite a bit of experimentation going on in the first years. With some trial and error, Indonesia's ended up designing, creating for itself, tolerably effective, tolerably effective institutions. It's revised a constitution instead of key laws that produce reasonably workable institutions. Again, the sort of headline version of that would be they're provided for free elections that have been repeated now a number of times at the national and sub-national level. Stable rule of law, the Indonesian legal system has got endemic problems with corruption, but there's some parts of the judicial system that have worked reasonably okay, and two to look at in particular, the Constitutional Court and some recent innovations with Islamic courts, which Greg may end up saying something about this, I'm not sure, but have done a great job of bringing improved justice at local level, yikes, two minutes for the poor. Anyway, so lots of, and I guess the last quick thing I'd say about why things have gone well is that generally speaking, if we had our economists here, they'd tell you lots about this. Indonesia for most of the last decades done a pretty good job with economic policy. Sound macroeconomic policy, basically, they've been sort of cautious with their spending and reasonably open, reasonably pro-competition policy settings. That's the good news. The bad news is there's still a heck of a lot of problems Indonesia has to wrestle with. I've mentioned one already, endemic corruption, really serious problems with corruption. Poverty remains a much more extensive problem than it should be for a country at this level of development. There's serious issues of inequality, particularly between the eastern half of Indonesia and the rest, and then you'll find sharp pockets of poverty, even in central Indonesia, on the most populated island of Java. So problems of poverty, education systems are much less good than they should be. Health systems have got all sorts of weaknesses. A quick word before Sam chops me off. I would say something about Indonesia in the world. Indonesia has now put its head back up in world affairs. As you'd guess, for the first half decade or so after the transition began, it was focused inwardly. It's now looking outward again. Indonesia has become a significant player regionally, and it's now starting to try and reach out globally. It's driving things in ASEAN again, and now as the most vibrant democracy in Southeast Asia. It's interesting to see democracy become one of the themes in its foreign policy, both within the region and more broadly. Indonesia's sought to offer itself as a model for reconciliation and bringing things together in various ways into the Middle East. It's actively doing things through the Bali Forum. It's a country that everybody wants to cooperate with these days. Almost everybody else in the world likes Indonesia at the moment. Now, that's partly because this particular government is so popular internationally, because it's very internationalist in its orientation, its pro-international cooperation, and it's partly because Indonesia's got its act together a bit more than it had previously, so it's in a position to do more. But as I said, popular internationally, not so popular at home in this government. One of the ironies here, and this is the point I'll finish on, if you think about the imaginable future for all the wonderful progress of the last ten years in terms of governments and in terms of governance, this is probably about as good as it gets, about as good as it gets. You've got a president, and he's sort of on the way down now, but a president who's not a crook, who's not stupid, and you can get stupid presidents, who works really hard. And that's not a bad combination. And almost all of the people that are conceivable successors, the combination, I would say, is not quite as attractive. But the point's actually deeper than this particular president or the government that he's got. I said before, Indonesia has tolerably effective political institutions. It's a heck of a messy system to try and run. It's a heck of a messy political system. People complain about this government being slow and indecisive, and it is. But you watch anyone else try and make it work. It's a hard system of government to wait work. I'm not saying that I expect things to fall apart, but we cannot take Indonesia's democracy for granted indefinitely into the future. Thanks. Basically, what I want to do is, rather than talking about Indonesia, I would like to share with you very briefly one of my current research projects about Indonesia. Of course, I have to also warn you that, like everybody else, I do all kinds of research works. And I don't want to be labeled by the one project I'm doing at the moment, because sometimes it's very easy to associate somebody with something that you know about that person. What I'm doing at the moment is to try to understand how Indonesia works very hard to rebuild a new nation state in everyday life. This is a continuation of what Andrew just introduced to you. With the fall of a long-standing authoritarian government in 1998, what was dictated for the people is now gone. What was defined, who they were, no longer valid. What you've got now is a kind of a vacuum in state power right at the center, big one, really, where now the rest of the population is trying to fill in in their own ways. And Indonesia, as Andrew introduced to you, is so diverse that you have a whole series of disorientation, competition, and putting bits in how where Indonesia should go from now on to the future. I'd like to approach this study on how Indonesia tried to redefine itself by taking materials that are not usually used in area studies. What I'm referring to is that I have been collecting materials that you can describe as popular cultural materials, as site, as field of expression of how Indonesian want to project themselves. You can collect materials for the same sort of questions from other sort of categories, such as the speeches of the political elites, the state curriculum in schools, and so on, with something I tried to stay away from. Particularly as I am doing my research work, I'm also thinking very hard about what area studies might look like in the second decade of the 21st century. I belong to one generation that was trained under area studies, and area studies in the past 50 years or so have been focusing on modernization and nation-state building. For that reason, area studies in many parts of its history in the past 50 years or so has been focusing on economy, political elite, state administration, and so on, education, and so on. What we've seen in the last few years is a major shift, not only that the old area studies in crisis, but also in the broader context of my research, we have noticed, for example, the decline of faith in the national project. As a result, people are more interested in the study of transnationalism. The decline of faith in modernization theory. People are looking for something else. As well as the decline, I would say, or at least the impasse in some areas of the political economy studies and strive to move away from something else which we call the new humanities. It has inherited from the old humanities in anthropology, in history, in philosophy, but with a new twist now. A more critical one, where the old discipline has been now more or less combined. So, for example, in culture studies, people take a lot of interest in the question of power and politics. And I have to take culture instantly as something, you know, like the essence of people's life. So that is the broader context of my research work. But in doing that, I have actually prepared some data on my PowerPoint, showing you there's something else that is happening on the ground in Indonesia on the areas that I'm interested in. For example, the number of print media has tripled in the last 10 years since the fall of the new order in 1998. Radio stations jump maybe three times. Household with television shed triple to 16 millions. Television networks nationwide has doubled from 5 to 10, not to mention the local television networks that rise to something around 200 in the country, and so on and so on. I have a lot of data that I was going to show you. Facebook users, 10 years after the fall of the new order, Indonesia ranked seventh in the world. As of this week, we are second in the world, only after the United States. With UK number three, India number four. I have the details of the number, actually, but, you know, somehow it's not working here. In popular culture as well, pop music, for example, for the first time in the last 10 years, simply break new records in cell figures in the millions, for example. Some of the Indonesian pop songs, for example, also dominated the cell figures in the neighboring countries. Films broke new grounds both aesthetically and commercially, way superseding the Hollywood blockbusters. You have heard a lot about Indonesia being the largest archipelago in the world, the largest Muslim-populated country in the world. I doubt if you have heard, Indonesia is home of the biggest jazz festival. I bet you have not heard of it. I was going to show you also some pictures. I don't think it's working now. But in defining new Indonesia among Indonesian themselves, ordinary Indonesians, I look at people who watch television, for example, recognizing, acknowledging that no institution in the country captured the attention of their populations as many hours on a daily basis as television. How can you study Indonesia without looking at this? So I've been looking a lot of that, and of course, as you can predict, one of the things that you can find in Indonesia, this is among those who watch television, is the Korean wave. It's a universal thing. If not universal, at least an Asian thing. It's just a bit that I cannot show you the pictures I've prepared. We usually associate the Islamization of Indonesia with the veil and the orientation to the Middle East development. With the Oriental pop cultures like the Japanese, the Taiwanese, the Korean, one might assume perhaps the middle-class secular Chinese minority were the major fans of these new culture products. I have a lot of pictures. Hopefully, if the guys are working still in Kachui later, I've lost a lot of pictures. How millions of girls in the Islamic veil are so crazy for Korean pop culture. In one show, I attended one event last year where there were about 2,000 girls and maybe about 5 boys. I was one old man there taking pictures. They must be wondering why I was there. There were huge posters of all the Korean pop stars, usually males, maybe 3-fold of the real size, and all the girls have to climb the chairs just kissing the pictures in the veil. And not only that, asking the other friends who are in the veil to take pictures of them hugging and kissing the pictures of the Korean girls. So what does it all mean? This is the kind of questions I raised for the future of Indonesia. Unfortunately, my time is limited, so I will stop right here hoping that it will strike a chord with some of you who are still young, at least young and hurt, and we'll talk more about this. I understand that time is not present. Thank you. Thank you, Ariel. That's actually a very good lead-in to what some of the things that I want to talk about. And as has been mentioned, my focus is on Islam in Indonesia. But let me give a little bit of a broader context first of all. Over the past decade, attitudes to Islam globally have changed considerably. Again, we have the impact of 9-11 and other terrorist attacks which have powerfully shaped public media, Western government and academic views on Islam and Muslim communities. One obvious outcome of this is the rise of a powerful specter of threat associated with Islam. Another consequence is a tendency to essentialize Islam. We've all heard these following statements, I'm sure, many times. Islam is a religion of peace. George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, all uttered something that's very similar to that. Good Muslims are moderate Muslims. Terrorists twist and deviate from true Islam and so on. So you get the impression that there is one clearly definable manifestation of Islam and it's certainly not a radical form of Islam. It's not just tabloid media and politicians who say these kinds of things but also plenty of academics as well. Some of whom are very knowledgeable about Islam, some of whom indeed are Muslim. But there are lots of bandwagon jumpers as well who realize that governments are making a lot of money available, publishers will publish books that are putting forward a particular view of Islam and so this can be very good for their research funding, very good for rapid career promotion. So there's a socio-economic aspect to the production and knowledge about Islam over the last 10 years. Not unlike what happened during the Cold War where lots of academics made their careers writing about, for example, the communist mind. The sorts of things that people study now as an example of what academics shouldn't be doing. So if we have a look at Indonesian Islam, it can be viewed through these or is viewed through these similar kinds of prisms. It is most often extolled as the most moderate and pluralist Muslim community in the world. Rarely do people making those statements define exactly what moderation is and whether moderation by itself is a good thing. I'm sure with a little bit of thought you can think of times in the history of your own countries where moderation was seen perhaps to be a bad thing, a sign of weakness. So these things are never problematised. Indonesia has also often praised as the most successful Muslim democracy in the world and indeed a beacon to other Muslim nations. And the recent rise of terrorism in Indonesia has been viewed as an aberration, as something very unusual in the history of the nation. Indeed, Islam in Indonesia is seen as otherwise peaceful. And quite often this rise in radicalism, violent radicalism is attributed to international influences, particularly wicked Middle Eastern influences, Saudi influences and the like. There's a lot of literature on this kind of discourse. So in this very brief talk I want to problematise the simple and perhaps comforting perceptions of Islam, especially in the case of Indonesia. And I want to challenge some of the assumptions and also show that there's very little that straightforward about these topics. Indeed, conundrums abound in when we're studying Indonesian Islam. For us as researchers, this is a good thing. There are no easy down pat answers or there shouldn't be. If you hear someone saying that understanding this Islamic group or this terrorist group is simple, it's just this one factor, you should be mightily suspicious of them because it's almost never as simple as that. We have lots of meaty topics to be researched and debated and I find, even though I've been studying this for 20 years, it's endlessly fascinating and I'm constantly made aware of how much I don't know and how quickly things change. So the verities of a few years ago may no longer hold up to close scrutiny today. So it's a constant challenge to try and understand these developments. So here's first conundrum. And to begin with the fact, this is related to what Ariel was saying, Indonesia is rapidly Islamising. We have lots of evidence for this. What we mean by Islamising is not so much that people are shifting from other religions into Islam but rather that Muslims are becoming much more pious, much more observant. Many more Muslims are praying five times a day, observing the fast during the month of Ramadan, would be reading Islamic texts, sending their children to Islamic school and as Ariel has done a lot of research on, also consuming Islam, buying products, often very middle class Yuppie kinds of products because they're being sold within Islamic flavour. This includes Islamic banking, Islamic clothing, Islamic holidays. There are all sorts of ways in which you can express your Islamic faith through your consumption patterns and it's a way of strengthening your identity as a pious Indonesian citizen. So we know that we have this rapid Islamisation taking place in society. The assumption often is in the West that more Islamisation means more Islamism and by Islamism I mean people wanting Islam and Islamic values formally present in public life. So more Sharia law, for example, more restrictions on the roles of what non-Muslims can do in public life. Now in Indonesia, one of the conundrums is that parallel with this increasing pietism we have had a decline in the popularity of Islamic parties. At the last general election in Indonesia in 2009 Islamic parties scored their worst results in 60 years of elections in Indonesia. They got less than 30% of the vote. Keep in mind, 88% of Indonesians according to the last census are Muslims. So what's been happening here is a delinking of personal party from political choice at least at the moment. Who knows in 10 years time whether that dynamic will change but nonetheless this has been a trend for at least 20 years. It doesn't mean to say that Islam isn't a political factor but increasingly what these newly pious Muslims are doing is looking for parties that are very competent particularly economically. The sort of parties led by Cecila Bambangidiyono the current president who Andrew was talking about. His party very selectively uses Islamic themes. It's not in a very exclusivist way but it's a way that appeals to a lot of I suppose what we call in Australia aspirational voters, people who are middle class and want to be upper middle class and the like. So they want governments that are competent can deal with the problems the nation's facing can deal with them well but also a government which is informed by Islamic values. They're not necessarily wanting Sharia law to be implemented but they like the fact that their president is an observant Muslim who will pray five times a day who does seem to be a good man. Another Koran conundrum. Indonesia of course is exalted as a moderate and pluralistic nation but it also has in recent years a growing problem with religious intolerance which the government is largely blind to. We have had violence towards so called deviant sects within the Islamic community such as the Ahmadis. Three members of this Ahmadiyya sect were killed earlier in the year with surprisingly little reaction from the rest of society. There's also increasing difficulty for religious minorities to build houses of worship in areas where they are in fact a minority. So overall you would have to say Indonesia still has a very good record on religious harmony but it is selectively so and there are some issues where Indonesians can be remarkably cold hearted about the persecution of religious minorities and violence towards them. And this begins with the president and goes right down to grassroots of society. We can find similar kinds of selectivity in Australia of course as well. I don't want to claim Indonesia is anything unique here. The Muslim democracy issue. Hillary Clinton, Kevin Rudd loves talking about how Indonesia is this wonderful Muslim democracy in the world. And indeed Indonesia of course has a very large majority of its population who are Muslim. So it's a Muslim majority in that sense. But Western leaders are often saying there's something Islamic about this democracy in Indonesia. My question would be is that so? Certainly Muslims helped to create this really remarkable democratization that Andrew spoke about. Muslims were a key part of that but how much was Islamic values and Islamic principles a key driver in this factor? Is it the case that Westerners because of their preoccupation with and perhaps an anxiety about what manifestations Islam may take have been concentrating on a religious factor as a primary element when in actual fact those religious factors are secondary or tertiary factors. That what people were seeking with democratization was something that was not at all religious or not particularly religious. But we have ascribed those religious values to it because of our concern about how Islam should manifest itself in the world. My own view is that in fact Indonesia's democratization has very little to do with Islam at all. Just as we find similar reform processes underway in the Middle East and in North Africa also have remarkably little Islamic content to them. Final thing to say about terrorist motivations and terrorism. This is something I do a lot of research on. Recently I spend a lot of my time interviewing terrorists. This is the most of all the complex and contentious topics that one can study in Indonesian Islam. This is the most contentious. Almost nothing is straightforward with this topic. Even within the one group of terrorists responsible for a terrorist action when you interview them you can find a remarkable array of factors that they will mention as the reasons for them engaging in violence. So again when someone says they're bombing us because they hate our democratic values and our freedoms it's basically crap. That's got nothing to do with why people are doing that. And in order to understand the reasons why very close research has to be undertaken. An enormous amount of research has been undertaken on terrorism across the globe in the last 30 or 40 years and it produces a bewildering array of explanations as to why this happens. I'd also just note between terrorists themselves there is no consensus. Jihadists often have very sharp debates about who should be the target of their actions when you should launch those attacks what sort of modes you should use should be assassination bombings you'd be guarding westernism non-muslims or your own officials. Here's one figure for you in the last year and a half all the victims of Indonesian terrorist attacks have been police. I think the figure is now about 22, 23 police have been killed by terrorists and not a single westerner. So that's one change that's taken place. There's still people there who want to kill westerners but they just haven't been undertaking any actions. That's a quite dramatic change in the space of a few years. The final thing to say about this is that this notion that terrorism is something new some virus which has infected this otherwise healthy and moderate body Islamic in Indonesia that's also completely fallacious. Terrorism or violent jihadism has been present in Indonesian history almost since independence in 1945 we have really the granddaddy of violent jihadist movements in Southeast Asia. Darul Islam formed in Indonesia in 1948 and it's present right up until this present day. It's one of the progenitors of Jemaah Islamia it's never really gone away there's always been a fringe of the Islamic community that's been drawn to this kind of Islamic messages. It's been mixed with messages from international fora but it's mixing with something that's also very homegrown. Finally, I'd just like to apologize for having to leave early but if anyone wants to talk if anyone wants to have a chat I'm around the next couple of days just send me an email, what have you and I'll be happy to do so. Thank you. My name is Paul and I'm a graduate student of the National National University I've served so years in both Iraq and Afghanistan trying to understand complex and servers for the terrorists myself and what we've done in the United States Army is actually bring on more anthropologists to help us with that discursive analysis and I was curious some anthropologists decry this and I'll give you a few thoughts on that too. Has that been involved in? As we know from the in fact I would be really surprised if a serious scholar was to mount an argument like that. Terrorism is a very powerful phenomenon in the world at the moment and like being other beings it deserves to be called scholarly study. One of the things I find in Indonesia for example is that there is almost a pretty judicial approach through anyone studying terrorism. So I go through the same university very quickly the same university and I talk about an Islamist army people will be very interested because they are going to talk about jihadists or terrorists people will just switch off here and they'll be less than a minute coming along coming in and stuff like that My message to them is that this is in fact not only is it an age problem for Indonesia and for Indonesian Muslims because it's a big difference of these kind of terrorist attacks but academically it is it's a fascinating field it's important and it's also immensely challenging to try and understand it. So you for example mentioned the value of bringing in anthropologists. I'm hard to take before researchers here and one of them is psychoanalysts so I can read the documents of the psychoanalysts and read it from my background which is political science and history and I identify the psychological strings and the authors I mentioned hear the critical arguments in their life so that would be the kind of interpretation I would do based on their their primary source of views psychoanalysts comes along and he says ah, none of that much I'm not reading it let me give you one example Muqlas, the older brother I know is each one of the larger ones a psychoanalyst friend when he reads the text he said Muqlas is suffering from almost an instable sense of skill that he was born into half of the world around him he was born from his mother's body he's spelt in cure his entire life and he really says look at the way he influenced his wife his wife was the body owners of menstruation, the effects of aging and look at the way he idealised the tone of Kevin and the the extra virgins that he would meet there who don't have any of these unpleasant you know human odours or consequences of aging they talk constantly about the death loat the cultural death loat U.S. sitcoms and busty women running around with vagueness for him, when he writes about this in a very graphic way it says cultural pollution which is washing over the Muslims and making them pure and so the jihadism for him is the ultimate expression in his desire to purify himself and dying as a mother was immediately one way for him this to resolve purification I think that's actually a really valuable way to look at this but it's an entirely different interpretation from what I was saying and I'll just have a little bit of time as to the biology and the life I think this is a field where a lot of human approaches and we're at the last bit of the day you're at the last bit of the day thank you I does want to have other questions that I can rank other questions comments, curiosities I guess my question was to Graeme very well my question is change of is I guess Islamic terrorists from targeting foreigners to targeting the police do you have a comment on that and a great distinction to the back of the stage of the cultural effort to comment on the change and to myself I think it's probably in a far-fetched answer to Graeme can you do a comment on that? I'm happy to take this I'm happy to take this this if I may just say something I did my PT from the policy from the policy but I'm kind of a terrorist a state terrorist a terrorist but I think the police is quite understandable and a parallel to what I have on my side that the police in fact and the experience that the government has really you know calm down the terrorists this is similar to what we thought on the world scale I think for that the government has a major so they try to do it in front of the real and similarly in my side I can be wrong but this is my view Hi my name is Ashley and I'm from the public school here at ANU and I also just spent two years working in Indonesia running the social networking at the Jakarta Globe newspaper so I'm hearing about the exponential growth of Facebook that was a strong machine to see in country I wanted to ask about some of the social movements that have formed out of these social media networks particularly following the Jakarta Retail Bombing because in 2009 there was a movement called Indonesia Unites that sort of emerged online people sort of pushing for action at this very grassroots level through online communications channels and I guess I wanted to ask whether you feel that you certainly have any real impact to me to be just political development My quick answer is it does have some impact but very important and a lot of photographers I think particularly advertisers like to operate the good example with the true effect is the case of Rita there was one lady who complained about hospital service where she was in and she was charged with defamation and wrote a trial and took her to prison people were so angry about it worked on Facebook and decided to pay on her behalf it was kind of it made in terms of recording so it didn't make any sense to pay and it is a symbol but usually it doesn't work that way I think you should put something bigger than that and my worry is that with the new technology most of the time it becomes so preoccupied with you know with everybody unlike the people in industry I think just a little footnote to that to the irony of this I want to ask you a question about immigration there is an increasingly sophisticated industry around political parties business winning government lost her mind and you find all of these political entrepreneurs offering themselves up to political parties connecting to political parties some of the most skillful emerging politicians have the skills to distort problems and they are all looking for ways to get some kind of edge in the political market place I don't follow this personally myself I hear from many people that they are trying to find ways of tapping into new technology and social networks to use it the advantage of this service Thank you for the opportunity I'm Natasha, I study here at the proper school and my question will be a little bit about Asia-Pacific how do you measure differences in both between Asia-Pacific and what are the urgencies of Indonesia and being involved in Asia-Pacific what's in it for Indonesia and what do you think the common ground social and cultural for Indonesia to be involved in Asia-Pacific Thank you Indonesia you ask a question of this sort of logic you ask for this do you think you are trying to get the logistically correctly what's in it for Indonesia to be more active to put more political, obviously budgetary resources into pursuing regional foreign policy initiatives two sorts of answers to that one will say in the end of the life and the other will say there may be appreciable advantages over time they won't be cared for in a while the first answer will say what this does is make people like presidents and foreign ministers and city diplomats international academics and community commentators they like it because they will go along and they are part of these things and they get so far they get famous and you are competing on political marketplaces, politicians are here officially to advance your career there is something interesting there and the first perspective will say what does that do for ordinary Malaysian citizens or ordinary Australian citizens or substitute countries the other response will say look this is the national international cooperation it's slow it's messy it's elusive and when it works it contributes to increased prospects of regional stability increased prospects of policy cooperation amongst governments ranging from war between like municipal services health services all sorts of technical stuff that goes on through to cooperation on security in an area where a lot of people take this on is creating financial cooperation opening up prospects for more commoners rather than less commoners and the argument there will be in the election previews to all of our citizens so the argument to view some of this might even be close to the same and there are all of the local people and if anybody is not open can we come back to some of this ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?