 about preparing trainings for migrations, but also for more. I'll explain this nicely to just then, what it's about. And it's when you prepare training, it's for rough to find, and it's of course for preparing the trainings itself, but you can also use the thing to gather information. And, what I should have added here, also to get, it's a kind of communication tool. I should have added one here. Communication tool, because when you ask users information about what they need, it is a message. Yes. So, when do I usually gather information? It's initially during that first meeting that you, anyway talk about it in the first meetings, to get some rough idea when planning the project or migration, that you know the amount of reviews, a rough idea for the skills, because that's some initial information if you talk and think, okay, what efforts do we have to make, and what might be cost involved to be. So, it's in the first meetings. Also, after the first steps are done, then you have the planning and communication in mind that you really need some information before the pilot phase. So, that's the moment that gathering information is relevant. Why? As I said, it's for the initial idea of the project scope, and it's to learn the needs of the users. So, and it's input for the pilot. The pilot is something that might meet these trainings, but it also gives you details to handle in the migration. So, gathering information may be from the users, and maybe team leaders. The information that I always appreciate is type documents when you ask users, okay, do you have any special documents that you think are quite bought or really important for your work or special that other people might not have? Things like that. When you ask that user, it might come up with stuff that gives you, indeed, an impression of what are the needs of special users or groups, but also, again, gives you some information on workflow and maybe applications that they work with. It's really a useful source of information. So, it's more than just counting the number of users we have. So, we need 20 hours or five mornings to learn those people about new office people are working. So, the needs, the planning of the needs, it's about the training, the general migration training. Of course, there are groups, the right groups, that need some extra courses. In general, in the migration, there are moments that you say, okay, we have some workshops, or there are a few time slots that we are available in the location, just drop in and you can complete your additional questions. But that's further on in time. But also, I think it's an important thing to consider when you are gathering information on how you can handle different styles because when you look at the expert courses, you can play a little bit with it. If you say, okay, we offer some trainings that you expect that are sort of enough but that you also expect, well, maybe later on there are not a lot of more needs and they can be gathered for extra trainings or maybe people are interested to really enhance the skills and come to a training location. So, that are also things to discuss, not to discuss with your partners there, but to consider your own mind. When you plan a training, you can play with it and hope that it does some extra things with selling additional trainings and courses. So, input for your training, input for the planning of the migration itself, the two things, documents and communications to the users that they feel, okay, they really need my information so apparently I'm important enough that they ask me questions so that I can give my ideas. That's been intriguing, the main pillars of the idea when preparing the trainings. So, any questions, any additional experience if you give trainings or not? Yes, absolutely. A lot? Oh, it's part of the migration chain. Yes, in this part of sales. I didn't understand what was your idea to take sales and plan the profile for the chance to sell more trainings? Yes, but why and how? Well, when you first get information and you know, okay, we have so many people and we have general migration instruction after a few hours depending on the groups and you plan some trainings for Hedgikal Jesus, we do a lot of things with special documents, but you can't do it with limited initially in the hope or in the expectation that people find out because it's different software and they need more skills to play with it. Yes, you have to play with it because in the most times the expectations of the customer or trainings are very low. If you have an amount of half a day or such a thing for a user, you say, okay, it's possible to do that. Yes. And afterwards, you have the fact that they want to learn more. Yes. That's more or less. Well, sometimes the customer indeed says it's okay that they really expect to give you more trainings than still if you can't even say, okay, we need to stop there or in my situation we have a training center to separate and where people can have their courses or multiple day courses. I got a good experience with the Saint's argument that often it's the first time that an user is getting off his training. Yes. Before, when they use the microphone, they have to do the learning work for their own and you have to be a good argument for the migration itself is to give them a dedicated training for it if they are happy. Yes. It's the first time that I really learned something about how an office document works and the people that do more spreadsheet work, they often did some training but in the text document it's promising so little knowledge and one of the challenges is when people switch from words to writer is that they see that some things behave different or that some documents look different but basically they have close to no idea what they're giving words and so we don't know much at all how they manage changes in the different environments. Indeed, that's an important argument but initially they say OK, explain the suite it's almost the same and it's not that much but be prepared there are groups of people that do so much. My problem in the small office environment is that the people don't want training. They resent it. All they're interested in is just processing their documents and they complain that writer doesn't work the same as word and they come up with examples which are so difficult that no one can answer them or they have never learned to use word properly either so they mix soft and hard starting and common examples is often that in the line the frames they have different widths and when it's printed it looks different than on the screen. All sorts of things like that. But they're not interested in solving the problems they're just very interested in doing their work in as little time as possible. What's organization in this sense? Just a small office of a foundation with three employees but the employees are not interested in learning anything they're just interested in doing their work. And if the management then comes and says we must do some training then they say well I'm going to do an hours training. To do training means I lose half a day of being able to get on and do what I need to do. I get so many documents that are badly laid out some people typically use multiple tabs to try and line and column top instead of putting a table. And if only they had half a day of training then the rest of their life would be so much easier to be so much more effective. If they wouldn't... It's not really a migration problem it's a problem that people aren't interested in doing something properly in the first place they're just interested in spending as little time as possible. And when they can blame some old office product they will blame that and when they don't have a different office product to blame they will blame you whether or not or whatever. That's the message. That's the idea they're not interested so they just blame anything that's available. The answer for Microsoft Office or the payload system of Microsoft Office is giving us such things like other videos like in server with video clips for special problems in two or three minutes and you learn how to change the ridiculous of the lines but these solutions are very expensive in the years of the year. We have a lot of smart video to show which one to accept we have a lot of video to use by the staff in the office and it works like those videos like in Microsoft Office that's what we do from there. How long are the videos? I'm going to check I think it's less than a minute. You'll still get the news that it says I don't have to go through all that material I just want to know where the pick is to do the same thing that I used to do in Word but the only thing I can think of if you boil it down to that sort of user then offer to make that user your beacon user which you want to be a champion of this user we can give you training so that when your colleagues say I can't find the menu click or the one they can just lean over to and say make them the champion if they're the ones who are resisting most give them the opportunity to be a hero and to lead. Sometimes that works we know sometimes it works and what you said before it's when you can get across the message okay we are starting with migration and it's a lot of items some things my different self training and it's also our experience for many people that have had trainings that within such a training we give some basic ideas or instructions that will make life of many office users much easier when you can bring across that that helps too somehow I always try to try to communicate but it's not easy because basically you're saying okay guys we have new products for you and each person oh and by the way the way you work always was crappy which is of course not fully true but it's it's quite funny and last year I had training and we did some basic courses and some special training and then the people find out after a lot of struggle that they didn't pay enough attention with the trainings or with emails or they didn't look through documentation again so we prepared some extra sessions of say half an hour three times an hour and we had about 10 teams basic formatting getting rid of automatic operation PDF sort of 10 topics we had and we planned I think it might be over three weeks time we planned seven half days so that topic one three or four times so each topic was multiple times so it was short and people had more opportunities to step in without having to make hours or from their previous time etc so it was a great offering and very good but not that much but it's also an approach that's interesting I can share it here so is it more useful to get a group together and say let's use the documents that you've been creating and we all showed how to create those in your office or is it better to get a group together and say here are some example documents which will use as tutorials this is one user's account to create an invoice so it will go through merging cells auto sizing it will go through text fonts it will go through adding an image it will go through with a graph do you answer I think providing them with a tutorial that they can work towards creating a known document because it may introduce to them ideas and ways of approach a page layout but they would never have got to themselves because they're only ever repeating the one that they can do but they produce a report where they go through for every header they go through and make that one different call and they do that for everybody they create rather than having the header style and just changing the header style because they never find out they just go through it themselves there are things to cover the first approach working with the wrong documents of course you have to explain the better the better approach but when you use the wrong documents maybe you get more more attention because I really see how it's going to work I agree absolutely I suppose we answer this question in this way that we do classical training with example documents which are for this team and afterwards we do how do we destroy them they get the chance to go to the test and there are five or six hours where they could bring up and say hey could you come to my desk and we do maybege on my desk with my you could take the champion leave the office use or along with you so that they can see you providing the training and they can see this and once we jump in they bring out a call from the meeting so there's more total room for the champion just for the usual use yeah you come across the use of word and the final term yeah yeah yes when you file open word then in the die-off you can rename the meet or replace whatever with files and well I never use that but sometimes you come across in the training people that I use to work like that just the file die-off in words as manager it's so legal for people that you must open a difference different window in an application they just can't accept that some people it doesn't work and you have to do it again you have to do it in a different way and in three days they call they call again to the office they write a request to my document or whatever it's interesting it would be kind of interesting if I know maybe this is asking too much because we're all separate companies but if if you were to at some point get together and pair notes and find where the user your typical user having the most difficulty with their office transitioning from word to to their office if you had something in common because that could indicate that there's a deficiency with their office on usage like in the user point of view because you may in fact find with your migrations that you all have something in common that comes out of their office and where we could for example work on usage and make the use of their office a little more easier from the user for example the tap tap tap tap the user just like place their cursor there and the tables appear automatically to create rather than having to create the table and I think you've got it which are gesture based and it would just kind of be an interesting use form of it but it would be interesting to see if the law had something in common with their office it depends on how you look at it basically there are no usability problems or shortcomings in the office to know how to work but I prepared documents for a writer so how do we call it in Dutch an easy transition from word to writer and it has about 8 or 10 topics in it when you need to format your page you don't go to file page settings which you format page when you need headings you don't go through all the settings setting the numbering in each style you have which you go to tools outline numbering and there are a few more things out there what to make interesting things that I find that people need to know because it's really different in writing and assembled on what you say quite difficult okay funny enough there is a guy who posted I think about 6 or 7 issues on outline numbering and related stuff because it's different and hard to find and it should be improved and of course it can be improved visually it can be made easier but we should go that far that you can throw away your own existing and excellent work just because people are used to doing different things in the world that's a separate discussion that doesn't belong here I don't believe maybe you have examples that prove you wrong but I don't believe that there are really basic shortcomings in the legal office that you say oh we see this better by so many users that it must be improved maybe I'm used to the wrong words and it's not so strong in my opinion but you have ideas yourself from what you say well I've noticed things that might be really really improved maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe it's extremely easy for you to throw away maybe maybe yes so that's one of the 10 topics in my document prepare your database always the same name which is anything that's extremely different from the understanding between work and this is one of the things that for people that work with it they really need to find out if that needs to work also with one agreement and I always do for example I've always wanted to produce a deck of cards so instead of having lots of diamonds hearts and spades having a right of cow to depress draw a wall always and having every card with its number or symbol but having a tip a tool tip or something that they can't so not during work hours but they can build up and play with their families or whatever they can play and at some point when they go mail loads will help you here or I remember that was the four of writer I was able to mail loads of tip on which is not a quick look at my packet cards I have an experience with obviously seeing these on its help I was playing with my family for a few months ago and we used that deck of cards and I was playing very bad because all my attention was on the boats all the way but it's a good idea to post it to some volunteers we love skilled people here are two little examples which aren't documented very well I come across them twice a year and I've always forgotten the answers so I have to sort it forward again one is searching for a paragraph character in order to replace it with something else and the other is a page number starting off with different so two things which don't come up often enough that you remember the answer but it comes up often enough that you have to offer again a big drawback if you give trainings you see the information so often but anyway for me I always have to think oh yes, I know it because I see it often but the people that use it twice a year that's correct so maybe some quick reference but there are some excellent tooling in the need for office help but I tend to show when you have found something you can just rather let you know the mail address or the text or whatever you can bookmark it I know we haven't talked about costing costing but I know when you estimate migration knowing that it sounds like you all need to do extra training at the end of the day then a little bit when you're costing your job up like about 10% more to allow for extra training or to do that or you didn't want to just cost up right exactly what you needed it depends on the customer if you know they're very tight on budget when they say they are very tight with a good chance that they have extra money available in the end and it's really needed you can just let it happen but if the group of zillions can spend $40 million just on travel hotels are still saving $1.6 million after the whole event then it's worth that investment if you're coming from the point of saving millions you can justify shorting some extra training again it's going to make those individuals twice as effective because they used to be from now having their training on board and then twice as effective because they haven't trained on right time then that's going to be a huge payback so you reap everything you need for maybe 2 hours or more so the good answer is that Tim has to go and brush and do my studies they're very training I'm not even very user but how do you work with that do you different ever occasion I expect of course you have your standard knowledge and you know what in ideal situations we do it like that but the ideal world doesn't exist in my country you have some flyer may I ask to what's your name sorry for which country from here so people are just not interested in your situation in getting the instructions well this is my private situation here at the university for example they almost reverse migrations that go toward Microsoft no one knows why there is no training for students for summer they're expected to do a lot of themselves yeah okay we have a long way to go and we have good marketing making the office sexy and appealing people that are all like to learn and go to our websites and apply for our trainings and then we thanks we are I was just going to say maybe the students the society the club free hot dogs I guess the class there's a student party that's part of it okay yeah they don't actually do very much just eat hot dogs maybe free hot dogs is the biggest issue there I would look out for free bananas thank you