 Good morning to you all and welcome to Copenhagen on a dark December morning that So it certainly calls for work and reflection So I hope that you will be working and reflect during during this event distinguished presenters and guests Ladies and gentlemen first of all a very very warm welcome to this conference and And welcome to the last results meeting of the international research program on aid and communication Recom Recom was actually launched back in 2011 as a joint venture between Cedar and Danita Coordinated by United Nations University World Institute for Development Economics Research, you know wider in collaboration with the Danish Institute for International Studies The program has now for three years based on the existing evidence and with analytical input from a global network of Development researchers looked into what works what could work what is scalable and What is transferable? Which means what development because solutions can be transferred from one context to another within development aid We have during the three years of Recom being presented with comprehensive evidence for the impact of AIDS of aid with various aspects of development economic growth employment social services Good governance environment and climate change Will today be learning about the last thematic focus of the Recom program the aid for gender equality Gender equality is close to the heart of Danish development aid and Danish foreign policy Gender equality actually has a very central position within the new Danish strategy for development cooperation called the right to a better life launched in 2012 The strategy applies a human rights-based approach to development corporation Fighting poverty and promoting human rights are seen as equal objectives for Danish development Corporation that reinforce each other mutually The promotion of women's equal rights Opportunities and empowerment are central to the rights-based approach to development Taking a rights-based approach means that we increase focus on the underlying power relations and structural reasons for discrimination and for poverty And a stronger focus on redistribution of power and resources between women and men This may sound very too ambitious But it's important to realize that promoting gender equality and women's rights Essentially about empowering women to be able to claim their rightful place in society in the family in the economy and in politics I'd like to highlight one example of the real effects of lack of rights sexual and reproductive health and rights this rights aspect is very important for Denmark But also hugely controversial in many international negotiations In reality the issue is about women's right to control and to take responsibility over their own body To decide freely if and when and how many children she wants and the right of everybody men and women To determine their own sexuality There are many many other examples where gender equality needs to be improved Access to education land ownership financial services to mention but a few at At this conference in this room today We have brought together some of the most prominent experts Researchers politicians and development practitioners from all over the world to discuss based on evidence to be presented how the future development aid can be shaped to Optimize our efforts to push for gender equality around the world Ladies and gentlemen, I believe that today's conference is an outstanding Opportunity for all of us to sharpen our evidence-based arguments for promoting gender equality Being an issue of crucial importance for fulfilling our aspiration for the right to a better life With these words words, I wish you all a very inspiring day And I guess we all look forward to the conclusions and recommendations Emerging from today's discussion. So have a very good conference and a good day of work. Thank you Thank you very much state secretary These opening words are indeed most appropriate Excellencies Ladies and gentlemen and dear colleagues I would like to add my thanks to all of the speakers who in some cases have traveled for very far to get to this meeting today It's a great pleasure for me to welcome you all and express my hope that today will indeed be Both interesting and stimulating event from which we can learn I am supposed to as part of this introduction to just mention a few housekeeping rules There is a Wi-Fi password for the venue and its name is the name of this building I quit and the password is 33 92 1601 You will also see in some places that there are possibilities for seeing what the Twitter Hashtag recomb gender references so that you can Twitter And if you are sort of more relying on traditional means of communication There are even some colored postcards that are available the wider staff will be posting them for you and Some of you may also have sort of noticed that the name tag is sort of looking slightly funny You can actually pull off the name tag And then there is actually a USB Where I believe most if not all of the presentations today are on Including as well a whole series of background documents There is a photographer here today if you have any objections to being On a photo he is very good. I should say then please just let us know There will is also going to be circulated some of the evaluation forms. We appreciate you're taking the time to fill them in Let me say that on behalf of you and your wider that it is a special day today For the last two and a half years We have been doing our best to bring together a global network to try to address the questions that we were posed By Danita and by Cedar We will of course not be able to give all of what we have found today. There are 228 wider background papers done together with the global network including these Now this network the people who have been producing these papers Include 283 researchers from 59 countries We do not have quite gender balance But I would like to say that 41 percent of the researchers of the authors of these papers are women and Then today is actually to the day where we are holding the last so-called Recon results meeting today on end on aid and gender equality in reflecting on how best Start this meeting how get it going how to get some insight full observations on today's topic on the table I was very pleased when Professor Amataya Sen who is a Nobel laureate in economics He responded positively to our request for saying a few words So please join me in listening to what Amataya Sen has to say about today's topic well, I think Gender inequality is Not a natural human condition. I think but the idea that somehow Women have to be in an inferior position or not quite so dominant position is really a Holy artificial thought which could be vanished But that doesn't mean it's easy to vanish, but I think the Solution to this I mean there are really two issues here there's an issue of enlightenment and there's an issue of agency The agency is an easier issue to deal with namely that whenever you are in a situation where People whose lives are affected consider takes a young woman have greater role as Agents in family decisions You would see that their lives would have to would receive certain Degrees of attention which it may not otherwise just to give an example that that it came To me not as a surprise Because I've looked at international comparison and I knew from the work of Cordwell and others that term women's education and women's Voice in family affairs is among the biggest factor on reducing fertility rate But then it didn't come as a surprise when we looked at the inter State and then inter district comparisons of hundreds and hundreds of districts in India And it turned out that the when we were doing first the study Momata mosti was a great figure behind it and John's resin and A few others the the figures that were results that were emerging is that even though the fertility rate going back to the 1970s varied between seven children per couple and some families to already below replacement 1.8 in Kerala That these two factors that explain all the difference pretty much all the difference women's Literacy and education and women's gainful employment in earning and income from outside each of which Increased the voice of women in and their agency in family affairs and no one's lives are as much affected As that of young women from over frequent rearing and bearing of children and if they have more voice Fertility career dramatically comes down So I think there's that agency issue and where there's also evidence that women's education reduces child mortality reduces gender discrimination between boys and girls and so on there had to be better understanding of the importance of Treating human beings as equal not as boys and girls of men and women and I think that's a that's a big challenge if we have a society where Girls are systematically discriminated Whether before or whether After but even after but or even before but the attitude of mine Which said I won't would like to have a boy not a girl that itself is very debilitating for society It's an attitudinal issue about Giving human beings the respect all human being the respect that they deserve ideas of human rights depend on it the ideas of Social equity depend on it. They can't be two different standards on that There's also a thing that in day-to-day living That if you have a severely imbalanced Women, you know a population they may lead to There's kinds of distortion Some people talk too much about it, you know, and that's about the and then and if you are if you get too Very mechanically thinking economists, you would even say the price mechanism will get it All right as women become scarcer they become more valued So the price where the bride price rises and as a result There's more incentive to produce girls. I think this is absolute nonsense actually That's not the way these social processes work. These are issues where I think the first issue is the most important one the attitudinal difference how to deal with it and that It doesn't have to have bad effect It does have bad effect, but there's no have to have bad effect for it to be an intentionally bad thing Why should you think of men and women differently? I'm often asked the question what made me interested in gender inequality I didn't think that I was interested in gender I thought I was interested in human being and if one group of them happened to be Much more neglected than others than interest in human being naturally translate into greater interest on the lives of those who were more deprived and so I think in that respect the whole issue of feminism and here I speak if I may unfurl my flag as one of the founding Editorial board members of the of the journal feminist economics Despite my own gender The I think the whole issue of feminism is also a issue of humanity Thank you very much What we would like to do is that we would like to put the best minds and the best evidence to bear on today's topic And I hope that at least these words of reflection can help get us started today I now have the pleasure to introduce to you Karen ground professor Karen ground from American University We very much appreciate Karen's willingness to take on the leadership of the aid and gender project together Especially with a drill who's here somewhere in the audience. I appreciate very much all the effort With Karen we have had a long series of very productive interaction Karen is not only a professor at American University But has also been in a senior position and aid a gender advisor in a critical donor agency So I think we have with us today somebody who really has both perspectives on this important topic Karen Please introduce us to today's topic and get us going. Thank you Good morning, and thank you so much for being here. I'd like to thank wider For inviting all of us here today. I'm looking forward to the conversations It's a great pleasure for me to be with you today And I'm going to be speaking with multiple hats and sometimes that makes me schizophrenic I've long been an academic who's an economist who's worked on issues of gender equality and development and economic growth But for the past three years I was able to serve as the senior gender advisor and then acting Senior coordinator for gender equality at the US agency for international development And I took that position because I was told you've been writing about this and thinking about this for many years Now it's time to do it. Let's see what you could do at an aid agency. So if we have time Later today, I'll talk a little bit more About that it's always a pleasure to follow dr. Marchesan. He's one of my heroes And he's one of the very few economists who I think has taken on and championed this agenda For many years before long before it was popular among economists and he's done us an incredible Service with his work on this topic starting with his focus on missing women Which some of you may remember from many years ago I'd like to set the stage for our conversations today. I have several slides. I'm going to go quite quickly And I'm not going to talk about all of them, but Let me tell you what I'm going to do I wanted to start with a very brief overview of the progress and gaps in gender equality and women's empowerment I want to say a few words about the approaches that donors by and large have taken to integrating gender equality and women's empowerment in aid programs I want to set the stage although I won't speak in detail about What we know works and what could work and where the challenges are And then I want to make some concluding comments that I hope will be provocative In terms of setting the stage for discussion So I want to start with a quote from bonki moon the un secretary general who Uttered these words on international women's day back in 2008 And he said investing in women is not only the right thing to do. It's the smart thing to do I'm deeply convinced that in women the world has as its disposal the most significant and yet largely untapped potential for development and peace And I think almost all of us in this room have heard that mantra And it's been spoken in very different ways by the leadership of the world bank the un agencies By my own former secretary of state Who made this her mantra? Secretary hillary clinton when she was secretary of state of the u.s This quote is so interesting though because it represents the tension. I think in the community as it exists today the tension between The rights-based approach the fact that women Women's rights are human rights and women as dr. Sen showed us Are just like are part of the the human species all human beings and deserve The right to have capabilities functionings to participate In development to reap the returns of development But it also Illustrates what some have called the instrumental case Which also dr. Sen referred to the fact that if you educate girls You have powerful impacts on fertility if you educate girls you can Achieve higher rates of growth As as a country and I have to say that probably it wasn't until Recently as we started to accumulate an evidence base over time The instrumental case is what has moved donor agencies more than the rights-based case And in fact, this was hastened recently in 2011 with the publication of two reports One by the food and agriculture organization, which for the first time ever Pulled together the evidence that Reducing gaps between men and women farmers in access to productive inputs seeds credit technology extension services Would actually have very powerful effects on the productivity of the agricultural sector And also lead to increases in household food Security and national level food security And that was complemented by a report that the world bank Put out in 2012 on gender equality and development the first-ever case A first-ever world development report that focused on why gender equality matters for development outcomes For instance, the world bank Picking up on the arguments of the food and agriculture organization went beyond just agriculture But focused on women's participation in economic life and political life Talked about women's control of her fertility And so forth and I have to say that while these Arguments gained huge traction and worked in more enormously influential. I think around the world They also weren't new for the bank because I'll just remind you back in 1992 Larry Summers who was the chief economist of the bank In his capacity as world bank economist Also made an argument that investment in girls education is the highest return investment available in the developing world And that was quite influential At the time But they didn't have the evidence base that exists then that we do now and I have to say it's important probably to go beyond girls education There's now a large literature Very large on the relationship between gender equality Development and economic growth And I think it's important to point out that as part of this instrumental case A few things that we know from this literature The first is that Gender equality is multi-dimensional But the literature that's focused on gender equality and growth has largely focused on gaps between young men and young women in education And gaps that exist in the labor market And so a lot of the studies look at that aspect of the relationship Which dimension of equality or inequality you're focusing on really matters And it's important. There's a fairly large literature that I think is quite robust that says that There is a very strong positive impact Of female education on economic growth That's particularly true in low income country contexts And that's robust to many many studies many contexts many time periods and so forth There's a lot less robust evidence about whether Gaps in labor market has the same effect on economic growth in many countries In fact, there's some evidence to suggest that some countries have grown Precisely because of gender gaps for instance in earnings in labor market outcomes And that's a very difficult argument because we care so much We think that labor market participation is so important is that it's a dimension of empowerment for women This evidence is not Is suggestive it is particularly true about some of the economies from east asia that have grown over time Perhaps suggestive of latin america. There's a lot more to be done There's also So we have to be a little nuanced and when I joined usa id The mantra there was gender equality is essential to development and growth And therefore that's why we need to invest in it But we need to be really careful about the type of gender inequality and how it manifests in different contexts There's also the the opposite argument that economic growth can reduce gender gaps And I was really pleased by that world bank report because it was the first time that actually a big international institution Has said that growth doesn't do the trick for gender equality growth is important But it's not sufficient and we need to take a range of complementary actions To empower women in ways that economic growth cannot deliver. So I think that's really important Now one of the dangers with the instrumental case is that we forget We we focus particularly on education We focus particularly on employment and we forget about the other Multidimensionality of gender equality the power relationships the cultural issues the social issues that are so important And it might also blind us to the fact that there are particular domains that we need to care about that not always That are not always as part of donor portfolios So i'm going to say a few words about those in just a minute But let me just say that This evidence case that i've been speaking about has been in the making for 20 years Or longer than that and in the 20 or 30 or 40 years actually going back to 1975 when the un Declared the first ever decade on women and these issues became Got on to the international stage. We actually have seen a lot of progress We've seen progress particularly in education larry summers magic bullet We have more girls in school and we've closed gaps largely around the world With respect to primary education although gaps remain in tertiary in secondary and tertiary education There has been reductions in fertility And there have been reductions impressive reductions in maternal mortality although we're nowhere close to where we need to be Around the world on this issue and there are more women in the labor force But women remain disadvantaged overall Relative to men in many domains So for instance And this is partly due to the pioneering work of a marchesan There are skewed sex ratios at birth and excess female mortality Across the life cycle for instance in the under five population or in terms of women of reproductive age Very important issues that we need to deal with Um reproductive health of course is one of the core health issues for women But there are many other health issues that we neglect in many societies related To other dimensions We I mentioned gender gaps. We've made a lot of progress at the primary level Secondary education is probably the area Um and back in 2005 when I was with the millennium project The area where we really need to focus on because this is the critical Level of education particularly for girls empowerment getting them only primary education doesn't Do the trick for both empowerment as well as for these other outcomes we care about Labor market issues are really problem Interesting we've closed the participation gap In fact many people Women work women have always worked It's just the work has been really invisible And the issue is not getting women into the labor market The issue is really about the conditions of work The conditions under which women work in informal employment in insecure employment the fact that there are earnings gaps Earnings gaps for me are like death and taxes in the sense that around the world We've never been able to close these gaps and even in this part of the world earnings gaps Persist and this is controlling for education and experience and all kinds of of other things Asset gaps are particularly critical And this hasn't been as high on the donor agenda as it should be But around the world the fact that women lack property rights I took it on myself many years ago We didn't we don't actually have data on the share of Of women asset owners around the world or the share of women in any particular society that owns Physical and financial assets land and housing and I worked with a set of colleagues from Ghana and Ecuador in India To actually collect the first ever nationally representative surveys that asked people in households a man and a woman How much they own and what they own And the asset gaps are actually substantial in parts of the world in South Asia and in Africa But I have to tell you in country like Ecuador. We didn't expect this The gap the gap is actually in favor of women in some ways That's true in terms of the amount that in terms of what you own how many How many houses are pieces of land But the value of what women own Is always less in every country where we have the data than the value of what men own And that's a really interesting finding so asset gaps for me An asset issues are some of the most important issues I'll talk about this in a minute in terms of what we can do almost more important than income and employment And of course the biggest issue that we have not cracked in any country Is the issue of time use the fact that we have Two sectors of the economy a productive sector of the economy and a reproductive sector of the economy That sector that is devoted to caring for people raising children caring for ill ill people Where women's time is spent and women have largely been responsible for the sector more men are Becoming involved in this type of work But the division of labor between males and females between productive and reproductive work has just not shifted And I love these studies of time use because even in sweden You see the disparity In in in fact and women on average globally work two hours more per day Than men when you think about total work time of paid and unpaid work And we'll never make progress unless we also redistribute and reduce we reduce the burdens Of unpaid work particularly the onerous burdens for instance in a rural in a country where rural women are walking To collect fuel wood and fire It's women's labor that compensates for those infrastructure deficits So access to electricity and water and sanitation is so important. This is where donors play an important role But other parts of the reproductive work the caring which is both joyful and pleasurable as well as sometimes onerous That needs to be supported by state policies by redistribution between men and women in the sector Now I mentioned the proportion of seats held by women in parliaments This is an area where there's been some progress around the world, but not not great progress I'm really pleased that we have some parliamentarians although Politics are only one aspect of governments and governance and political power But the fact that women are still largely underrepresented in political positions, particularly at national Parliaments a little bit more so around the world when you think about local governments and municipal municipalities So how have how is the donor community responded to these issues? And I would characterize this as a two-pronged approach for many years With each being important in different ways So the first is a track that is focused on women specifically Empowering women integrating women into development Providing women with livelihoods projects focused on girls education And those are always usually apart from what we do as donors. Those are standalone separate Projects, but where there's also the gender mainstreaming approach the idea that What people have called gender issues or gender equality is part of everything we do This is a frame that troubles me. I have to say and we'll talk about this I think throughout the day, but the idea is that we're going to mainstream And I'm going to use these these words and quotes attention to gender Whatever that means because I don't actually know what that means We're going to mainstream attention to gender in our focus on health and education And microfinance and agriculture and governance and fragility And I think that that this track this twin track approach this gender mainstreaming has got us into a little bit of trouble As donor agencies and in national countries And I hope that actually to some extent we'll get into some of these conversations when we Hear from some of our panelists Later today and I'll make some comments on this But let me just show you before we get there to the mainstreaming part what this has meant in terms of donor allocations So we have patty o'neill from the oacd DAC which collects data from the donor agencies on What's called the gender equality marker? This is the share of foreign assistance that goes towards Promoting gender equality and women's empowerment. It's data on commitments not on obligations is what donors say they're going to fund And this data excludes the u.s. But you can see that between 2002 and 2012 The share of resources, uh, these are in millions of dollars is actually Not that great, but what's interesting is that this illustrates this twin track approach in that principle signifies that the focus of the aid is on empowering women And reducing gender gaps very directly. It's the principal purpose of that aid Whereas significant means that We are mainstreaming It's not the principal purpose of activity the purpose of the activity is to build the school or to Improve outcomes in the education sector But there are elements of those kinds of projects that are directed towards reducing the gaps between men and women And so if you do mainstreaming properly, you should have a larger yellow bar Then you should have the green bar, which is the principal purpose so This is a little bit misleading and looking at this data because It's just the absolute levels and what you really want to know Is the percent of gender equality focused aid as a share of total aid? And here you can see that gender equality focused aid, whether it's principal or significant Is somewhere around 18 percent of all aid now this of course varies by different sectors And the question here is what does this mean? How do we interpret this? Does it mean that the number and I think actually we don't know what it means in the sense that we don't know What the right number what the right allocation ought to be but the question is is this enough? And I would argue that and probably is not enough And if we're doing mainstreaming properly We would see 80 percent of the aid Being reflected in the significant issue not less than 20 percent Why? Because gender gaps Should be the core the way we see all of the problems and i'm going to come back to that in just a minute all right Danita and sita have been very interested in this project in terms of identifying what works and what could work For gender equality and women's empowerment And let me first say that As we all know this is a complicated question. There's no one size fits all It all depends on context and for gender equality and women's empowerment. It's even more important that we take context into account The second thing that I want to say about this is that this question has to be answered with a lot of caveats A lot of caveats why because to answer this question. We need really good impact evaluation And gender issues of gender equality and women's empowerment are hampered because we lack the sex disaggregated data That could tell us about what works We lack the impact evaluation even more than in other fields We lack the impact evaluation of what works that is starting to change But it hasn't changed yet The third issue is from the literature that does exist and from our experience I think we all have a sense of what works But the big question is not so much what works. It's how How do we do this work? And in my work at USAID when we were focused on gender mainstreaming The question was not that people didn't care about it or didn't want to do it. They just wanted to know how to do it How do we do this work? And that's what I think we need to speak about So i'm going to let you read the slides to say we know some things that work in different fields We know that conditional cash transfers have been a very effective way Of getting girls into school at the primary level also at the secondary level We know a lot about scholarship types programs With respect to health The mdg goal the millennium development goal which is on reducing maternal mortality We've actually known for a long time the three elements that are really critical for reducing maternal mortality Access to skill the tendons at birth Emergency obstetric care functional referral systems. We know what works But the question is how we deliver those and how we set those up in different country contexts We know about the importance of contraceptives. We know about the importance of sexuality education But we don't always know is how these types of interventions stack up against each other and which were the right entry points There's a lot less evidence about what works although that's changing More recently with some work that has been conducted by the un foundation to increase women's economic power And particularly in terms of what works for poor women as opposed to less poor women Donors have tended to focus on micro finance and micro enterprise as the main vehicle for improving women's economic status That's been a bit misguided because there are so many other issues that are so important And we need to focus on issues of how we convert change the conditions of work in informal employment Provide the services that are so important for women to be able to work in different ways We also know what works to increase women's political participation quotas and reservations Have had incredible importance in getting women into political spaces Now I feel very technocratic in explaining all of this to you because the question again goes back to how in every context All of these are nuanced by social norms by political power issues by constraints that we have to take into account and understand in terms of implementing any of these types of interventions I'm not going to say too much. We're going to have a session where we talk about fragility and conflict But the only other thing I wanted to say here is that We have in the areas of what works and what we could do preventing and responding to gender-based violence Is probably one of the most important things that we could be focused on and here the evidence base is a lot less Evaluations are very difficult to do. We don't really know what works in terms of prevention We have a lot more evidence on what works in terms of response response to victims Or survivors of violence and even there the evidence is somewhat mixed So let me talk a little bit now about what some of the challenges are that have been bedeviled us and then I will wrap up The first issue is this tension between I think for donors themselves investing in standalone projects versus understanding how We can think as part of our broader portfolios if we're interested in achieving food security if we're interested in in democratic governance How those programs systematically and deliberately Reduce the gaps that exist between men and women as well as empower women in the program So that those issues are not an afterthought. They're not some a component that just gets embedded It's about the whole way the whole orientation of programs are designed And if we think about gender issues at the core of the way we think about development We can be at scale much more quickly than if we have some standalone project That gives women a little bit of money to earn some livelihoods that we then have to think about replicating And to get to scale what this means is you have to think about institutionalization You have to think about in the systems that we work in whether it's in government systems or civil society systems What all the incentive structures are to get people to think about these issues from the get-go Mainstreaming has had a long and difficult history in donor agencies and there's a very big literature The debate is about mainstreaming versus away streaming the argument is that when we think about mainstreaming gender It automatically becomes invisible and nobody thinks about these issues And partly I think this is also due in here I'm going to put myself in this category due to some of the failings of us as gender experts and gender communities And why is this because I think we haven't been as specific and as deliberate and clear About what needs to happen and what we need to do and partly the issue here is being very clear about what the outcomes That we care about are setting out that positive agenda for change with really clear goals and objectives And how they how those translate into any sector specific context or any political context Part of the issue for us is being able to marshal the evidence and the diagnosis and of course I'm an academic so I love to do research and I love to work on data But the lack of data really hampers us in this in this conversation And I go back to a meeting that I first attended in 1985 with ilabat Who was the founder of the self-employed women's association in india and she said without data We are always invisible We need data to make the problems visible and to show why gender equality and women's empowerment matters I want to just make a few comments in conclusion before that I hope will come to During the day and I think this is particularly important in the political context that we're in as a global community Many of you know we're at the point of negotiating what would be a post millennium goal framework post 2015 framework for gender equality and women's empowerment And there's big discussions for where these issues should sit in that global policy conversation I think we need to be very strategic The issue one of the issues and challenges with gender mainstreaming Is the idea that we have to be everywhere and do everything And I think that has been a bit of a detraction for this community in terms of what we're aiming at Rather, I think we need to do a better job of identifying the strategic entry points the points that can be pivots for change The donor community national governments recognize that education is a Education for girls and boys is a pivot for change But the economic issues are pivots for change and we haven't really I think done as well as we could in that in that area For the donor community who it cares about mainstreaming I think the issue is How do you get people to take this on board when I started at usa id? I didn't talk to the gender experts I went to all of the non-gender experts who are delivering usa id's dollars working with country governments and policy dialogue And the way we address these issues is to talk about getting results on the ground success gets success if you can show why Remitting the gaps that exist between males and females in an agricultural Program matters in terms of boosting productivity Or matters in terms of reducing household food insecurity You have a better case for getting it done because people see it. They learn it. They do it automatically We need as a donor community to invest in monitoring and evaluation, especially impact evaluation And for this we need to invest in data collection Uh, probably most importantly that I is not on here is we need to also ensure we've The political will I've been in this work for 30 30 years and sometimes I feel like I'm back in that movie groundhog day that I wake up And it's the same situation today as it was 20 years ago. We have fabulous rhetoric We have to figure out how to go beyond that rhetoric to get to results and to get to real transformation. Thank you you