 section dedicated to international experience and it is my pleasure to give the floor to Dejan Vasic from the Center for Cultural Decontamination from Belgrade, Serbia. The floor is yours. At the very beginning I would like to thank Andriy Dostliyev for inviting me to speak and to all of you who are open to discuss and exchange opinions together with me during this conference. It is hard to produce a discourse on the ongoing war atrocities taking place in Ukraine right now and there are differences between the situation in Yugoslavia in the 1990s and the situation that we are talking about now. By taking it into consideration I will not address it by speaking about the transfer of experience but from the position of exchange that I will call and refer to as a difficult knowledge or the infrastructure and relationship between art and the crime. I will try to speak in a slow pace since we have a simultaneous translation in Ukrainian and finding proper words can be a challenge and I will address it later on during my talk. Since 2010 I am working on a research on the relationship between war, crime, memory, contemporary art, architecture and moving images. And when Simon Dav asked me to provide the presentation I decided not to use any images as a backdrop and later on it would be also clear to you why. Instead I decided to stand in front of you and to stand it makes a take a stance and the prerequisition for it it is to have a solid grounding. And how can we speak from the position of stability while we are all living in a present moment as subjects in a free form. I will try to articulate myself in a discursive way and to talk about center for cultural decontamination where I work as a visual arts curator and from my own artistic and curatorial research experience and how those positions were interconnected in the past and what we are doing in the present moment not now but now. The center is non-for-profit cultural institution which is established in 1994 whose work promotes critical discourse alternative trends in social and cultural policy, inclusion of human rights, fundamental freedom while confronting violence, nationalism and discrimination. From the immediate context of its foundation the anti-war movement in Serbia during the 90s through the transitional histories of the 2000s Cezekado has opened an important the chronicle set overview of social challenges and anticipative responses coming from the dynamic field of independent culture and artistic production, critical discourses, public debates gathered from local and regional communities and collective memory and culture of resistance. The first program was on January 1st in 1995 at noon and it was called the first decontamination and each new year we are making our birthday exhibition and gathered hundreds of people exactly at noon. One of the first programs that are following was the exhibition living in Sarajevo and it took place while Sarajevo was under the siege. Center is a place of arts, political and cultural dialogue, a public space of criticism and affirmation and by organizing several thousand events, plays, performances, exhibitions, public discussion, film screenings, concerts, workshops, seminar, conferences, lectures and complex performance experiments. Center missions articulate, stimulates and supports creative and challenging initiatives, cultural and artistic production and informal education aimed at strengthening civic participation, interaction and social dialogue in Serbia and beyond, while offering a space for critical practice in culture and arts. The center collects archival material about civil struggle and emancipatory practices in Serbian formerly Yugoslavia and uses its own institutional history as a research and inspiration for new activism. It stimulates the intergenerational and transfer of knowledge and investigates new forms for coalition and community building and at public advocacy and collective action. We believe in the visibility of independent cultural, artistic and social action and development. Our vision is an effective forum where individuals, social groups and civil organization meets, talk, interact, learn together or with, learn and seek common ground and share the interest and initiate public actions and they together with the center for control of the contamination team participate in building sustainable and stable civil institutions and democratic culture in Serbia, works on production and communication of knowledge and arts that enhance critical thinking and generate new culture of civic interaction and social cohesion, supports its own institutional assessments and create new forms of engagement in the changing context for the new generation of activists, artists and cultural practitioners by reactualization of its archive and intergenerational transfer of knowledge. The main focus of my research, critical writings and curatorial work is art as a critical and political practice. It's an engagement based on the conviction that every act of criticism reshapes the relationship between the production, representation and interpretation of arts which started with the collective work on memory politics. For five years I worked on artistic research project with four phases of Omerska working group investigating the work crimes committed in the Bosnian Omerska mining complex. It reflects on the memorial site from the present perspective by making visible the continuities and discontinuities of all three epochs and four phases of Omerska. The mining complex of Omerska from the period of socialism, the concentration camp as a site of mass killings and torture for non-Serbian population in 1992 and during the worst of territory of the former Yugoslavia and its transition to private property of Arcelor metal, largest steel producing company in the world. The fourth phase was inspired by Pavle Levistek's couple of Omerska and by using examples of movies, Santa George kills the dragon directed by Serbian filmmaker Sergian Dragoyevich that was shot on the location of the mining complex and Arcelor metal orbit designed by artist Anish Kapoor for the occasion of the opening of the Olympic Games in London partly made of the iron ore for Omerska. We questioned the role of the arts in the policy of perpetuating war crimes by other means. Four phases of Omerska working group explore strategies of memorial production from the position of those whose knowledge and experience has been subjugated and excluded from collective memory and official history. The three epochs and four phases of Omerska are deeply interconnected. They speak about the disintegration of Yugoslavian community, the fall of self-governing socialism, the brutal robbery of social property and the destiny of its citizens in the post-war neoliberal capitalist society. The starting motive and the framework of four phases of Omerska working group was a critique of the recent cultural production. It explored the following questions, which policies stand behind cultural and artistic practices and what is the role of cultural and artistic production involved in the revision of the socialist past as well as the denial of historical events of the 90s that referred to our war crimes. Working group used various forms of exhibiting public working meetings, reading groups, working gatherings, electoral performances, writing declaration, making film balloting and physical exhibiting of our archive. The work was developed and created in public space, forming a space for politics of solidarity and equality. By adopting the idea of sociality as a standpoint, working group asked the question, is it possible to think a memorial from the position of knowledge and experience which is subjugated and excluded from collective memory and official history? Our aim was to create a memorial in social sculpture media constituted by the people and their discussions about Omerska site, which through art and artistic practice changed society. We saw it as a platform for the production of knowledge as a process of self-education, auto-reflection and critical thinking. The public working meetings were the basic political platform of the group and the first dislocation of the social sculpture outside the place of research and one of the places that hosted us was center for cultural contamination. For working group, the public working meetings were basic political strategy and presentation of the ongoing artistic process, which de-fetishizes visual representation as inevitable demand of the visual arts. This iconoclastic approach was triggered by our visit to the Omerska mining complex site. It is important to note that there is no memorial or any sign about the war atrocities done by Serbian army against non-Serbian population in 1992. We started our work in June 2010 and during our visit we saw a mining complex that operates as any other in the world. However, the only day when survivors of Omerska could visit this site and this is only for two hours is August 6th on a day when concentration camp was dismissed under the pressure of international institutions. On that day, we saw a community of former inmates and survivors and we heard their speech about the atrocities on that very spot. After this, we had our meeting and all of us were overwhelmed by this experience and I remember my colleague Mirjana Dragosavljevic saying, my head is full of images and I cannot pick one of them. We decided not to work in image production terms. Instead, we decided to use politics of bodily presence and to expose ourselves in the process of production of memorial by other means. In 2012, together with survivors and former prisoners of Omerska, Monument Group, which is a counter-monument Yugoslav art and theory collective, Delve, a collective exploring intersection of art, politics, and academic research, and the Center for Research of Architecture at Goldsmiths University of London, working group reappropriated Arcelor-Mittal Orbit Tower as Omerska's memorial in exile. Andrew Hersher, who's writing I'm recommending you for your further reading, wrote a paper in ruins architecture memory, counter-memory, making this action of solidarity with subjugated as a horizon for the work in critical theory. Further still, my latest project in center of cultural decontamination is ongoing series of public discussion and exhibitions art after a war crime. And it is initiated in 2019. The starting point of my research is based on adornian dictum writing poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric. And on the other hand, Agamben's thesis on the potentiality and responsibility of art to articulate speech about the unspeakable. My intention is to address ethical, aesthetic, and political challenges that artists struggle with while working on politically engaged art that address the question of war atrocities and trauma. The disintegration of Yugoslavia and the words of the 90s which led to genocide, ethnic cleansing, and organized prosecution of civilians created social and political circumstances for the continuous production of the contemporary art as well. That context also operates as a historical frame of reference and is a subject of numerous research and interventions in the fields of art. The starting points are the question of temporality, relation of context, and the moment of emergence of those practices and their resonance today as well as the modes in which the condition of production, circulation, and existing and new infrastructure determine the discourse in the arts. In this period, many neo-Havangard artists transformed their practice and together with emerging artists of the 1990s and 2000s were focusing on the relationship between art, politics, and war crime as well as on monuments and memorials. At the very beginning we decided to invite everybody who were working on the relationship between war and crime in a debate and to produce statements in an active voice about their own artistic practice. It is followed by discussion and we were inviting two to four people who never collaborated before to discuss the same topic from a different perspectives. We also invited four experts in cultural policy who were listening to these panels with the aim of producing a paper that can be used to create cultural policy guidelines that would be eager to foster this kind of knowledge and experience and they presented their viewpoints on the panel discussion held in December last year and it is available on our web page for those who are interested. At the beginning of the 1990s the paradigm shifted towards what we recognize today under the term contemporary art and we are all aware of the processes of the 1980-19 Europe. There was also a shift to a model of project-based financing that includes expectants to fulfill certain aims and requiring various indicators of successfulness that are to be measured. My thesis consists of the claim that contemporary visual art is open to the uncertainty of the outcomes which thus leaves the very language of art inadequate for this kind of project thinking. That is the reason why there are the usage of terms borrowed from the other disciplines such as international law, human rights, cultural studies, anthropology, forensic, while in the place of the artistic process the term project and art-based research is introduced during the 1990s in Europe and former Yugoslavia for the art that address social and political problems. What I want to point out is that cultural policy influence is not only financing, production, exhibiting, interpretation and perception, but also to a large extent the very nature of the artwork as well. Last autumn in Belgrade a public debate was finally opened about the place function and the role of the images in public space. The image crisis was caused by a memorial drawing referred to as the mural to Ratko Mladec, so-called Butcher from the Balkans, former military general and convicted war criminal in the city center of Belgrade. This triggered public division for people to decide whether they are for or against the mural. Timely together with my colleagues in the center and the artists and cultural workers I initiated a discussion claiming it is not a mural. With this claim we politicized a seemingly neutral technical term. The following step was organizing the exhibition This Is Mural and I invited six artists and three artistic groups to collectively paint murals in center of cultural decontamination. We intended to open the question of the scope and limitation as well as the potential of the representation in the urban landscape and its symbolic capitalization by different political narrative. Tsuzikada has vast experience in dealing with topics of war and trauma and when new phase of the Russian war against Ukraine started we didn't wait for invitation. Rather we came in touch with our partner organization from Ukraine, artist, activist, academics, filmmakers and curators and we contacted them with the aim to organize public programs together or simply share our knowledge and experience. In June 2022 we have organized the first public program in Serbia as a support for cultural workers and people in Ukraine during the war in a form of the round table four months of this war together with Diana Berg from Art Platform 2 from Mariupol, Ihor Savchak from Center for Cultural Management in Lviv, Vlad Arsenevich Breiter from Belgrade and Aleksandr Niksha from BBC in Serbia. Furthermore, together with our partners Katergina Kozira Foundation from Warsaw and Arts with Gallery from Ukraine among others, we participated within secondary archive project in Manifesta 14 in Pristina where 160 female artists from nine countries Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus, Kosovo, Albania and Serbia together with 14 artists from Ukraine together produce one new unique sound piece for this exhibition. The start of our work was in January this year and it coincided with the start of a new full-scale invasion for the year's ongoing war of Russia against Ukraine. We managed to open a space for Ukrainian artists to address the ongoing war atrocities and destruction and after Manifesta we are organizing the exhibition in Center for Cultural Decontamination in the end of December of this year and it would be on a display for our birthday exhibition on January 1st at noon. While we were in Manifesta I ask Asya Tsitsar, a curator from Ukraine, what she needs now and she answered I need time for myself. Starting from it we conceptualized a residency and research project Mediating Difficult Knowledge and coming from the anti-war movement background the Center for Cultural Decontamination during the last 28 years with various projects that are implemented in various paradigms ranging from Transitional Justice, Reconciliation, Human Rights, Art and Activism, Pollux and Culture of Memory and Forensic Aesthetics we are often anticipating in the changes of our discourse. The project Medic which is grounded in our archive and experience will activate the members of the experience of war in Yugoslavia and the means of addressing topics of war and trauma solidarity and empathy in order to share our knowledge as well as to learn together with cultural workers from Ukraine. At this point we have two residents Asya Tsitsar and Anastasia Hreskina and Diana Berg will join us in December this year. It should not be left unmentioned that many of the artworks of artists from from Yugoslavia that are addressing war atrocities as masterpieces in their media are part of the major contemporary art museums collections worldwide. For years these artworks were forgotten in the museums depot and since February this year they are again on the exhibition displays all over the Europe. Today 30 years after the start of the war in former Yugoslavia we still don't have a common name for these wars and on international as well as on national levels euridical processes have failed to produce justice that would satisfy survivors and families of the victims. Historists are in disputes and the artworks that are addressing war crimes have don't have a place in history of arts and what I'm arguing for today is a production of perpetual never to be resolved debate about the potentiality of art in addressing war crimes and atrocities as a collective action which is based in solidarity. Thank you. Thank you Diyan and I would like to give the floor virtually to our next speaker who is Tamar from Georgia to share a Georgian experience which is also very relevant to Ukrainian situation. Tamar the mic is yours thank you. Thank you very much. And I'm representing East Organization Culture of International Lab. I don't know if you hear me well because I hear myself okay so thanks first of all thanks a lot for meeting me for this very interesting and foremost very important meeting. So yeah because we in Georgia we have to deal with with the conflict since the dissolved Soviet Union because we have different conflicts on national level several civil wars within Georgia but are also affected by the regional conflicts for example in Armenia and Azerbaijan which has a huge impact on us and since recently also Ukraine because we are very much involved in this conflict we consider ourselves to be involved in this conflict as well. So this conflict started from the 90s and still are continuing with the most recent one in 2008 which took place in Gory on the closer to the Russian border with South Otetia and it was like a frozen conflict which was ongoing also since 90s but this time it got really very aggravated leaving us with the Russian army standing on our territory despite the fact that there were some agreements too for them to take status quo etc. Of course we cannot really compare it with a scale and the duration of conflict with Russia in Ukraine because these were according to most of the estimation it lasted only five days and it was correct in five days but officially it is said that it started on the 1st of August and ended on the 12th though we are still dealing with the consequences because some of the people are left without their homes at the beginning this were about 192,000 internally displaced persons who immediately left the territories but gradually went back and at the moment there are about 20,000 persons who are left without houses and they were provided quick housing by the governments international organizations etc but they are still considered to be refugees so this was actually the war that was pretty much announced and everyone knew that it would happen the Russian military expert Felengauer he predicted that it would start in August in Georgia and in South Otetia and it was pretty much exact because he said he mentioned August and also Aleksandr Dugin he said that this would be the only way to prevent Georgia from its NATO membership and NATO aspirations the same thing as Ukraine is striving for and he stated that South Otetia's independence would block Georgia's NATO membership and that the would military operation carried out until December so despite the fact that everyone was expecting this war and somehow this war also ended let's say pretty quickly there are still artistic projects going on about this fact reflecting on how it is but still it is a very very difficult situation not only because of course everyone in Georgia considers Russia occupant in this case but with the region there is another problem this is the first place of Stalin and still this emotional dependence on the on the image of Stalin as a really very strong person strong historical person is still present there which is like an absolute cognitive dissonance because this place has been bombed by the Russians during the war but still these people who live there have their emotional connection with Stalin and they somehow say that he's not he was not a bad person at all so it was it happened in 2010 only that the huge six meters Stalin monument was removed from the central street of Gory it was still there until June 2010 and the population was against it so the government had to remove it at three o'clock at night so that people didn't know about that and there would be no no demonstration or something they are still demanding it to be brought back and this is really an interesting factor because not only the war but the soviet past is still haunting these people and this is a very very huge problem that needs rethinking and somehow rebuilding the whole structure of the mentality I would name one one example now in November my organization which works in the field of the of the contemporary culture we initiated a project about rebranding Gory because the Stalin museum there is one of the not one of the it is the biggest money generator of all museums in Georgia this is the only museum that doesn't really need any public funding though it works under the ministry of culture and it is still under the umbrella of the state authorities because it generates so much money that it is pretty commercial and it doesn't really need any external money and everyone who comes to Georgia wants to go and visit this museum which on one turn from the one side it's really a shame but people don't really realize it and Gory is really well known for a lot of historical interesting sites which are like the second millennia before christ etc etc it has a very good ethnographic museum so we decided to initiate a project because there is a big need for especially from the younger generation somehow to rethink all this soviet heritage and there were several interventions made in so this was a joint project by the free university students from Tbilisi and also the Gory photo club which is a which is a local initiative and they work a lot on promotion of the people from Gory who were really interesting really famous did a lot of artistic works but are somehow in the shadow of Stalin all the time and there were different workshops organized there also the comic workshop where they produced for example the new images of new images of Gory and they made a comic book about the new history of Gory because it cannot really concentrate on the same things over and over and Gory is also mentioned related to another project by a very good Georgian photographer Takoro Bakitze I wanted to show a very short video that she made because the occupation happens not only on the level of the mental level with these people but it also happens in Georgia now on a daily basis because after 2008 when the treaty was signed about stopping the war Russians are still moving the borders so we call it the creeping occupation because the border is moved our side every day basically every day and for example it is really funny to say that but you can go to sleep on one side of the border it suddenly in the morning you find out that you are already on the other side because the Russian army they are telling the people okay you can dismantle your brick house and take it with you but in 20 you have 24 hours to get out of this territory and we cannot really do anything about that because the international community is silent so we are not capable to start a war because you know Gory is like 60 kilometers Georgia is teeny it's really super small so they if we start the war we will be like nonexistent this in just two hours I think so I would ask Anna to switch maybe the video link which tells the story by Takoro Bakidze who spent really a lot of time researching these creeping borders and creeping occupation so this is one of the interesting cases of using a narrative by a Tbilisi based artist who actually is not really related to this region at all who goes there and initiates a project that lasts for more than one year just to show how the situation changes for the local for the local population so please let's see this video for just a minute or so and then continue with the other cases you miss you I think we can... Because, well, yeah, if you want, there is also this video available on the website of Magnum photosite. So you can also watch it because it has very many interesting images and the story itself is really interesting, though compared to the Ukrainian conflict, which is a tragedy on a global scale. Of course, it is much, much smaller, but still it is one of the ways how we can deal with a conflict on an artistic way and somehow create the narratives in order to understand what these people, under which conditions they are really living and what they have to deal with on a daily basis. Because for us, the Georgians who live in the cities, despite the fact that these territories are about 50 kilometers away from us, we still don't see what is in reality going on there on a daily basis. And this is very important also from the Ukrainian perspective, because now when the war, I don't want to use this word and diminish somehow, but it has become a routine and people are maybe not following it on a daily basis like they used to. This is really the moment that we don't... can't miss because there are so many stories to be told. And for example, one of the ways is also involving international groups of artists. For example, not far from the Gory region, there is a project that is ongoing in the Nikosi village, which is divided now in two parts, because one of the parts is controlled by Russia and another one is on the Georgian territory. There is every year a Tury Academy of Arts. They are initiating an intervention when they bring the students from the Zurich University together with the Georgian students there who live there for two weeks and they start working on their artistic projects, which is also very interesting. And I should mention that it is also quite shocking for the Georgian students, because they never had to live in these conditions and they never had to deal with these kind of people on such a short distance. So these are maybe two projects that I need to mention, one that takes place in Nikosi and another one that was organized in the IDP settlement that was built not far from Gory, where these people, not 20,000 at the same place, they are scattered through different villages, but there were special villages built for them. And there are also a lot of people among them who are artists who have their artistic ambitions and they have no chance to exercise them. So I think in terms of Ukraine, how it should be rebuilt or at least head towards rebuilding of its culture, maybe one of the options would be not to rebuild it only on the territory of Ukraine, but also on the other territories, because there are now so many Ukrainians in different countries. Also in Georgia, we have a huge influx of refugees from Ukraine, but also another influx from Russia and Belarus. So now these three groups are all mixed up in certain aspects. They are also helping each other. In some cases, in some cases, they are pretty isolated, but we know more about the Ukrainian groups who live in Georgia rather than Russian and or Belarusian, because they are keeping a more low profile and the solidarity towards Ukrainian refugees in Georgia is really very high. So at the very beginning of the war, there were 13 private galleries which decided to organize a Solidarity Act and Solidarity Exhibition and they initiated a cultural week end of May when they exhibited the works of Ukrainian artists that were created exactly after the start of the war. And this is how they try to promote this issue even more about the population, which is already very supportive. We have different cultural events going on in support of Ukrainians, but also with participation of Ukrainians who are in Georgia. And I think this decentralized model would be one of the maybe best solutions at least at the very beginning to deal with it. At the moment, I also work for the Tbilisi Architecture Biennial, which could be maybe a good case for that, because we are the core group of four people, but one of them lives in Berlin. And so we work very much online. And that could be also an option for the Ukrainian artists. And I think they are already using these kind of opportunities to work online with each other because we also have the partners, a partner organization from Ukraine, from Ivano-Frankivsk. And we created their pavilion in Tbilisi. This year, we were very appreciative of the fact that they even traveled to Georgia, which is like something absolutely crazy in my eyes, to go 18 hours from Ivano-Frankivsk to Warsaw, and then to fly from Warsaw to Tbilisi to create a installation and Ukrainian pavilion during the Biennial to come here only for four days. This is really something incredible that we appreciate a lot. So I think that Ukraine will definitely win this war, but it will also win this war, which is our war as well, because rebuilding Ukrainian culture, I don't think it will be possible without support from outside. But this is also a big support for us to get richer in terms of culture, to get more advanced in terms of humanity. Thanks a lot. If you have any questions, please just feel free to ask them. I will be happy to answer them. Thank you, Tamara, for sharing your experience and your thoughts. We will have a small Q&A session after the third presentation. So please prepare your questions for it. And now I would like to invite here Nian Ting Chen from Taiwan to share her experience and experience of Taiwan with us. Hello, everyone. It's my pleasure to stay here to talk about my experience, and I come from Taiwan, and I'm not sure does everyone know about Taiwan or about Taiwanese situation. Possibly, to be honest, because of the Ukrainian war, after that Taiwan become the second topic about the situation of the war. And before I start my presentation, I want to share my yesterday, his experience. Yesterday, I arrived in Mobiling airport, and I just like to need to take a queue to pass the customer get, and at that moment, the staff asked me, like, oh, where are you from? I say Taiwan. And I don't know why, but the staff just maybe saw me because Asia faced, oh, China. I'm surprised because I say Taiwan, but I don't know why the person, listen, become China. So I just kindly adjust. He said, oh, I'm Taiwan, I'm from Taiwan. I said, oh, sorry, I'm apologize. Yeah, I think I don't feel rude, to be honest, because it's common experience for Taiwanese people. And in other case, sometimes if I say, I'm from Taiwan, I'm Taiwanese, some people say, oh, Thailand. Yeah, I'm not rude for Thai people, but I just feel like, what happened? Taiwan and Thailand, possibly the pronunciation is similar, but please pay attention, I say Taiwan. Yeah, and so like this kind of experience for many Taiwanese people, we feel weird, but it's become common. Yeah, so that's why I think the Taiwanese people, we very, very want to share about Taiwanese situation or Taiwanese perspective to the overseas people about like what we are. Yeah, so now I will officially start my presentation for today. Yeah, and actually today I will share my exchange program with Ukraine and Taiwan, and this exchange program is start from the 2021 until now. And it's mean, actually, it's before the world, we are reading start this project. Yeah, but during the world, we changed some project and more folks about like doing the world. Those overseas people, how can we support Ukraine? And also, like a Taiwanese situation, possibly we are the next. Yeah, in Taiwan, we have a slogan say, today's Ukraine is tomorrow's Taiwan. Yeah, and this situation is both unfair for both countries people. What happened? Yeah, why we need to face this unfair situation in the world? Yeah, so now I will so from this our exchange program to share like a be artistic people. How can I do for face this situation? Yeah, to be honest, I'm not a political person. I'm not the big man, big woman. So how can I do for a nobody or artistic person? How can I do? Yeah, okay. And this presentation and also this this PowerPoint actually is not not originally is not for today's presentation is the issue and I published in Chinese world to Taiwanese people to know about the Taiwan and Ukraine, our exchange program in Italy. Yeah, and the list exhibition and the exchange program originally is from the 2019 I meet the Ukrainian curators and artists in Taiwan. At that moment, Taiwanese government invite some of the Ukrainian alternative art space and artists have the exhibition in Taiwan. So it's my first time to meet Ukrainian artists in Taiwan and at that moment we make a good connection. So after that one day I gather inviolator from Ukraine curator to invite me be a participate curator have the media festival in Kharkiv. So it's like my my personally cooperation with Ukrainian artists start from that moment. Yeah, until now and I believe is we all have a long-term relationship in the future. Yeah, and because unfortunately because of the coronavirus, and also now the world. So this exchange program will change the online exhibition and there will still be a lot of automatizing promotion event on the internet and the physical event. Yeah, so we met the website for the exhibition, the social media exhibition and you can see the photo is our website. When you go in to see the website, you will see the world. They have those four worlds and each world have a different function but those function is connected with the recently Ukraine unfair situation. Yeah, and how Ukrainian artists and the Taiwanese artists, how so far they all work media art to present the situation. And those videos actually is not after the world, they met it, it's before the world. So it means still have sound of artists, they're very sensitive, so they feel like in some weird situation or personal artist experience, they feel like possibly have an unstable condition in the past. Of course, before the world, some people feel something weird. So the artist is very sensitive, so they met art to talk about the public people. Maybe we should rethink more about the situation. Yeah, so we collect the loss video to this exhibition to show to artists and also public people say, yeah, actually it's not just the after the world. Everything was happened before, they have some phenomenon, so we should be more careful. Yeah, so loss is the Taiwan and Ukraine artists live video. And after this presentation, I will show you the website and the QR code, so people if interested, you can just scan it. Yeah, and for for the artist part land, we also make a different function. So this function is hanging hand, and this function is we invite around the world's artistic organization, even artists to support Ukraine art and also artists. So we invite, for example, like a Taiwan National Museum or Gaussian Fire Museums organization to make their sentence. And in public, to see like a Ukrainian artist, you are not alone. We all stand with you, even we couldn't do anything. But at least for the mental, we still support it. And we follow every detail in the news. Yeah, and actually last year, it's a last year, the last day, I was in Kyiv. Yeah, because at the moment, we are preparing for a physical exhibition in Kyiv and Nipro. Yeah, so you can see the photo. Actually, at the moment, I visited the picture center, Mr. Ski and Art National Fire Museum of Ukraine. Yeah, we meet a curator and artist to talk about how can we cooperate in Taiwan and Ukraine. Yeah, so every week, every week, we have an online meeting with the Ukrainian artist, Ukrainian curator and also executive team to talk about how to build this exhibition. And after this online exhibition, we open it. We also do a physical promotion in the world. So for example, this photo is I took from the UK in Liwupu. Yeah, so I was invited to have a seminar in Liwupu for the Liwupu university professor and teacher to talk about like how can we do. Yeah, and they have an other event. It's like in the right side, I was invited in Singapore to have the seminar and the speech to talk about like our online exhibition with Ukraine and Taiwan. Yeah, and also this summer, I went to documentary. I was not invited in that event, but I do my best. So I went to there to promote our online exhibition to make sure more people to understand like even I was not invited artist, but I can do something in there. Yeah, do my best and meet other people to introduce myself also for the Ukrainian situation. Yeah, and after this online exhibition and the exchange program, I got a very good feedback and this feedback will keep us to keep going and have a more cooperation. So after online exhibition, our Ukrainian curator and the artist was invited, have an exhibition in Taiwan in Taipei to to show about to show for the Taiwanese people about why is Ukrainian artist contemporary artist. And here we also in this year, we also invite the three Ukrainian artists to doing residency in Taiwan. Yeah, and also we have our government invited the Ukrainian book company to to like make make we try to publish more about Ukrainian history, Ukrainian writers, books in Taiwan to understand we want to learn and we want to know about Ukrainian. Yeah, and also it's very tricky. I'm not sure, did I say it's good or not, but actually, we also host the refugee Russian artist, they have two Russian artists they against their government because of the war, they want to stand with Ukraine, but so they were crushed by their government and at that moment because they are they are Russian nationalities, so no people at that moment like because maybe that situation people had Russia, so no other country organization support land, so we heard about this, so we also open the residency opportunity for land to come to Taiwan. Yeah, so it's tricky, but we I think the Taiwanese we do our best because it's difficult to judge for one or two person in this situation. Yeah, so let's come back to the website exchange program, so after this exhibition, our exhibition published and we got a lot of public people's feedback and this feedback is written in different language like a Chinese language, English and Korean, Japanese, yeah even some language to be honest without google translate, I can't read. Yeah, so we get a lot of feedback from the professional artist organization, also the no more ordinary people, yeah and also this exchange program also get a lot of like social media or press to promote it, so even just in Taiwan we got a 10 newspapers interview and also promote, yeah also we got like a South Korea, Japanese and also BBC Indonesia news to promote this exhibition, yeah I think Asia recently for Ukrainian people think it's like quite far, yeah but actually everyone follow it, follow this situation and we just want to say Ukraine you are not alone and we always even we couldn't do anything but we still follow it and give us the chance if we have any opportunity we will stand up together, yeah so after after this whole exchange program we also have like a sound writer or like a generalist to have interview about this whole program to keep this cooperation can keep going and have a different way to recording, yeah and then now is the information for the whole exchange program what we achievement, so like for example our exhibition trailer we have like a 9,000 watcher and also like we have the 15,000 hotspot the people share their information so from Instagram or Facebook, yeah and also over 20s museum galleries to share this information, yeah and all of all of the people watch this online website over 13 countries to follow it, yeah so I think it's just like we are not like the government made or national levels exhibition or exchange program but how can we do the best in the emergency situation to change our plan at the same time to do our best and this is our QR code can connect to website to see the whole exhibition online, yeah so thank you very much, thank you Nianting let me just make a small comment and remind that based on the general comment feedback from Ukrainian cultural society we ask to stop any collaborations with Russian artists and we consider any attempt of reconciliation inappropriate at least at the moment while the active phase of war is happening right now and Ukrainian cultural heritage and artists are on the physical danger because of the shillings and bombing from Russia but I would suggest not to focus on this topic at the moment but rather focus on the main topic of this conference and what is important for us is to gain this international experience from our partners who are aware of what is happening in Ukraine and have I would not say similar but to some point also challenging experience of doing culture in their regions so I would like to ask Dian and Nianting to join me here and Tamar is with us online please have a seat and if you have any questions I will be happy to assist you with that if not does anyone have a question okay we have we have first one here can someone help me with the mic I want to thank to all the speakers for today's presentations and my comment and question will be addressed to Nianting hi a year ago when Nianting was in Kiev we had an interview during her stay there and I remember that we discussed together with the exhibition also the situation of relationships between Ukraine and Taiwan and that we have these cultural communications but there are a lot of issues on diplomatic level and you had some problems with entering Ukraine and after a year and in this new situation do you see any changes in this direction in this field thank you just quickly to explain the Taiwan and China situation for the the today's audience Taiwan Taiwanese people we think we are the individual country and also we we we have the same race and the mother culture from China Chinese culture is the true it's the fact but the after Second World War we we we we was coroned by Japanese government after Second World War and we just changed the government and become democratization yeah so it's it's our history national history but for Chinese Beijing government they still think we belong to land and because they are big and Taiwan just like a tiny island so when China or Chinese government become powerful and the influence in the world to be honest I would say bullying I think Taiwanese situation is like a bullying so um for example like when we go to April we see the the flight on table you you you wouldn't see like oh if you want to go to the Taipei the capital city in Taiwan you will see Taipei Chinese or Taipei China so it's it's it's make the the foreign the very confused I said oh it is China or Chinese and you know it's unfair situation but because Chinese or Chinese company is very powerful and rich so they can like uh indicate the airport or like a like a flight flight airline company to to change the name it sounds very weird right it's um unfair but it's happened and this situation is like three years before it's already happened and become common yeah so so Natalia asked me the question like this year or recent year does it have any change I would say yes it's always change and this change is not just like a like saddling and it's like a very very slowly but but become powerful yeah but if you ask me like or do I do any like a directly attacked I would say no but every day every day every week they are they're me I'm not sure exactly English but like a like a the the fly the military fly fly to Taiwanese border Taiwanese islands border and they didn't attack us but they just annoy us yeah so how can I say it the situation is it's very difficult and even I'm the Taiwanese but I couldn't represent all of Taiwanese people still have some some of Taiwanese people they they love China or they earn money from China so they cross with Chinese government so yeah we have one more question from Guillaume Tartus I would like to ask Dian thank you for your excellent and large presentation and I'm working as well in the field of critical theory but I'm not at this time philosopher in a way I did researches about some concentration camps and you mentioned Adorno and his quote on Auschwitz and my question is you know that in our researches we try to separate the case of Nazi concentration camps or symbol Auschwitz Gulagian concentration camps for example Kalima and Vorkuta then we found that there are very big differences between them some the Auschwitzian case is related to autonomism or individualism too much and Gulagian is very collective collectivistic then we did researches about Goliotok you know in Yugoslavia in the period of Brostito and then you mentioned about Bosnia and Herzegovina you know and these concentration camps and I didn't research on these camps and couldn't identify them but could you just comment about the differences at least between Auschwitz and you know and concentration camps Bosnia Herzegovina from your artistic or rather critical theory point of view what was the differences between them what some to explain a little bit you know how these people presented themselves in which one way that this ideology and so thank you well speaking of differences first there is this difference in temporality of those two concentration camps when we are speaking about Auschwitz we are speaking about World War II and when we are speaking about Tomorsk we are speaking about 1992 I mean the difference is really huge and I could not see the links between two of the concentration camps in one part yes because we are speaking about dead camps it is not just some prison it is a dead camp where people are systematically tortured and killed and while I was speaking about Adorno I was speaking about Dictum of Adorno I was not giving any cross links between Holocaust and genocide in Bosnia so if you would like maybe to discuss it later on we could continue yes thank you thank you we have we have a question from Mihailov thank you good question also connected to this topic I represent organizations that used to be a cultural center on the territory of the factory that was turned into concentration camp and now we see that a lot of places like this are being unraveled all around the Kupai territories and your zone and everywhere concentration camp filtration camps and so on do you know if there is any research going on about this right now already is there any works that have been published or something like this especially because Izalaza had been there already for eight years so maybe there is something that could be also connected is that I didn't quite get this question the last part question is do you know about publications or research about this topic worldwide and if you have been doing research about this as well it's also interesting there are actually a lot of researchers and also articles written in various different discourses about it so it depends from the point of view but you have the whole body of the knowledge about holocaust and how actually to think about those places from the perspective of the memorial and then you have also different kinds of theories that are arguing for those places not just to be a place of memorializing through the objects but also the places for production of the knowledge and we can also speak later on about really systematically about all these books and articles that I could recommend to you thank you thank you I want to ask Tamara maybe someone can help me translate in English I will just ask in Ukrainian and I will translate you I would like to ask because I think that talks about the occupation of churches are going to hear where and in what way these talks are going on I mean where these talks are taking place things at the beginning of august 2008 are ongoing since that period but as you see nothing really happens so these are only the talks and we have to deal with them and you know very well how european systems work they support you but on the one hand it's just with they are concerned when they write that they are very concerned it means that something really horrible is happening but usually nothing really happens for us after that and we are in the same situation as I said this project for example with gripping occupation it was made not in 2008 but much much later than that and this is an ongoing process that we cannot really stop so every time it happens there is a resolution this is really bad but this is the reality that we have to deal with and one thing I would say that there is of course the physical occupation and there is another thing which is like a mental day occupation that we really I think need to work even harder because there are the people here in Georgia especially in the recent times who say that okay maybe we need to build some kind of relationships with Russia maybe we need to behave in another way so you don't this this is like completely the situation of a victim of a domestic violence so if you if I behaved well then they would not beat me maybe but at the moment I wouldn't say that anything serious is going on in terms of the occupation and I don't really think that anything serious will be going on in the future in the nearest future because I should really say that we all these are not pure words we all are very much dependent on what happens in Ukraine because Ukraine is the future of Europe I am absolutely sure Ukraine will sooner or later win and it has to win because this kind of evil evil cannot really survive but I also hope that Europe understands it's better how much they depend from Ukraine which is a buffer zone for them at the moment and they are people killed there and they are dying every day in order to protect them and they should do a little bit more for that I mean not Ukrainians Ukrainians they do whatever they can I I don't think they can do even more but the Europeans or the rest of the world so the occupation in Georgia this is just a mere words at the moment thank you thank you we have question from Anna thank you I have a question about these connections with people who left the countries your countries in different period of times of war or in thinking that war could happen and the question is do you have a connection with them do you feel this internal request inside of the country to be connected and how do you see people abroad Georgian people Serbian people Taiwan people could rise this awareness about what is going on and what need to do in other countries where it is a space let's say safe place to to talk about this Tamara would you like to start then yes yes I can start with that so you know when the rose revolution happened in 2003 this was really the moment when a lot of young people who stayed abroad for years came back because the hope that something new would happen and they would find their way to contribute to really the re-establishment and rebuilding of the country was huge unfortunately with the newer government which has I mean officially they are very pro-western but sometimes they are doing the things which are really very pro-russian I would say so now the situation is the following that a lot of young people are frustrating they want to leave they want to go to the other countries to find some future somewhere else what is the good trend though is that even when they even if they go and when they go to the foreign countries they still keep in touch for example with good institute we initiated a very good project in 2011 I think it was called the reverse brain drain where the Georgian artists and art agents who lived abroad for for ages and never came back were invited to conduct the workshops at specific educational institutions and some of them that this was really a turning point for them at least two or three of the 10 people that relocated to Georgia and started to create here so there are a lot of people going back and forth now it is really easy and especially with COVID because everyone was stuck at home it didn't really matter where you are so for example with the architectural biennial we had a very good opportunity to recruit the people from abroad also so because everything was happening online so we are doing our best somehow to recruit these people not to lose this thing for intellectual to prevent the intellectual brain drain and the contacts are growing stronger and stronger and this is what I'm saying actually that this could be also one of the solutions for Ukraine that it is really important to build this web of network because at the moment everyone can work from their home of course the physical contact is something absolutely different but still under the circumstances this is one of the solutions thank you the pandemic taught us how to stay connected online but at the same time it's very important and this event is one more way to prove that being physically in one space is also very important to be integrated dianne would you like to also answer the question well there are actually different reasons why people are leaving and why they are migrating from one hand we can speak about economical migration we can speak about political reasons for leaving and also it is all also important to note that sometimes people just cannot bear it and there are there were migrations in Yugoslavia during the war times but also after the 2000s as well and from the artistic point of view some of the artists were working on this question of migration but also what is important to speak about it is also the ways how people who left are still connected with the local scene and how they are actually producing the knowledge about it and I could also recommend you to if you would like to read about moving which is a book of Pavle Levich who is professor at stanford he wrote a book disintegration in frames he actually spoke about actually writing about uh disintegration of Yugoslavia but from the point of view of moving images and so on and so forth but what I would like to say it is also when you are leaving you also cannot come back that easily and especially we have to bear in mind that when the war started the public institutions in Serbia because Serbia was the perpetrator state Serbia was not a victim in those wars actually all public institutions had to follow the politics of the states and all people who were working in those institutions had actually to make political choice whether they are going to stay on their jobs in official state institutions or they would leave and people who left were also founders of center for cultural decontamination for example Borca Paviciewicz was theater director and he left in 1992 then also I would mention Mirjana Miučinović who was professor of Yugoslav drama in academy of fine arts in belgrade she left saying how can I speak about Yugoslav drama in the situation in which Dubrovnik is under siege thank you thank you Niantink actually this is a very good question but at the same time it's very complicated to answer it yeah because from different perspective for example from economic education culture even political perspective will have a different answer yeah so I would say China or Chinese is a big very big country and then they are become very powerful from each different perspective situation yeah but for this question I just want to share with you the phenomenon in Taiwan for young generation the the culture and the facial scenes for example maybe western people use youtube or instagram facebook twitter for chinese people they use the like we chat or like a small read book like this maybe you are not familiar but for taiwanese young generation they also use this kind application or social media so they it's very interesting taiwanese young generation can very easy to get the information from china from mainland china but the chinese people local chinese people can cannot get the information from local taiwan situation so it's like you know it's like a cultural aggressive can I say that I'm not sure but it means so actually taiwanese young generation is very uh familiar with recently the chinese contemporary culture yeah it's not about political but it's about like a like a maybe cultural identity or about the facial so it's it's it's become a risk for for recently taiwanese audience because it's it's like a soft power and it's very sweet and easy to get but if they become it's become like a like a normal life maybe maybe we are what become the the problem yeah so yeah it's my my sharing also I would like to reply if I can for that words about that for example taiwanese look what is going on in ukraine and try to understand and also consider that if ukraine will fall next taiwanese or georgia wait that georgian people wait what will be the result in ukraine because it is important influence but from the point of view of ukrainian side I think that we try to make our voice more stronger to telling this story of colonial approach of Russia telling this different story and uniting our countries and our voices and do you think that this trans border connections between cultural workers in that countries could be somehow helpful for each of us and try to talk more not from the each of us and wait the result from one country but united now does anyone does anyone want to start yin jing yeah I'm reversed yeah because I think um taiwan and ukraine for a distance the physical distance is very far and to be honest of course I follow ukrainian contemporary art and also the the rest of the situation but for the long term history background to be honest I couldn't say I very understand yeah and I I know it's very complicated as a foreigner how can I know about it so the same situation exchange it to ukraine people do do you know about taiwanese situation or taiwanese history I think even people follow is this issue and also maybe google um in wikipedia you can get some extra information but is that the the fact is that the true is is we couldn't say yes or not yeah so I think so far the real physical exchange is is is very useful and also can have like a real like a someone face to face or so far the art or culture to have a different open the the opportunity and open a different perspective to to know each other so I think as a curator I what I want to do is I want to create more opportunities to invite different countries people to so far art so far exhibition to know or to to have more opportunity to recognize each other yeah so I I'm I'm not a teacher I'm not like a teach someone about history I just want to do is open my mind open people's mind give everyone opportunity yes um yes um for sure um I think it is really very important uh moment now to um somehow to express the solidarity to the other people and this cultural exchange or human exchange is um a very important uh level at the moment we have a lot of Ukrainian artists that I already said in Georgia so that uh we can work with them but I also think and for example during the architectural biennial which just finished um end of October we saw that our Ukrainian colleagues how exhausted they are and how burnt out they are because they do whatever they can in their own country so for example we had here Anna Pashinska she she's coordinating this project the Kochati where they are providing shelters and refurbishing the former dormitories of the students for the people who come they are a group of architects and they are working on these projects and um not only the human interaction with them was very important and I really am happy that they came to Georgia but they also had like three or four days to sleep to get a normal sleep and I think we should not forget these kind of things because at the first glance this is not so obvious but then you see how how these people are worked out helping each other helping themselves most of the time they don't even have time for themselves to recuperate and I think we need to create each and every opportunity to give them a chance to operate on a normal human level first of all and then also to exercise their creative uh their creative activities thank you uh Dejan would you like to add something well I think that this question started with the question of territory and in a way how countries and military generals are speaking about other countries in terms of territory it is actually the way in which they are excluding people who are living there like it is a huge uh uh uh territory of an empty land and it is really a dangerous situation because everybody who are on that territory are potential targets right and in articulating and also speaking about of course I think that it is clear not only now during this conference but also before how important is to actually have uh this uh to actually maintain already established networks between various sectors and also in establishing new ones because this is uh the the best way how actually you can speak about what is going on in Ukraine also to uh reach for the support but also what I'm thinking about and how I was imagining our residences that I spoke about in central agricultural decontamination it is actually only to provide for people time and space to think and to heal not to produce if they want to they are welcome but there are zero expectation in a sense of production because what I believe that people need now it is uh that they start the healing process thank you thank you thank you Diyan thank you Ninting tomorrow for for sharing your experience I would also like to emphasize that each each one of you mentioned how you are cooperating with Ukrainian artists and culture at this moment and it is also important that we can stay connected uh at least in these artistic practices and in all of the support that you are providing to Ukrainian culture and artists right now it is very important and it is truly very appreciated um thank you once again for being with us we will be having a small coffee break for 15 minutes and after that we will proceed with three more presentations of international experience so please grab a coffee and come back here thank you