 Well it's seven o'clock so we'll get started. First we'll start with a roll call. Boren. Here. Burd. Here. Serda present. Davis. Here. Groff. Here. Hannah. Here. Kittlesen. Here. Clayunas. Here. Manny. Here. Meyer. Here. Montemayor. Here. Radke. Here. Ryan. Here. Susha. Here. Vanderwele. Here. Verhasselt. Here. Sixteen present. A quorum is present. I will call the Committee of the Whole meeting to order. With that I'll ask for approval of minutes of the last meeting held June 12, 2006. Motion is second. All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Just wait. Under discussion. Alderman Montemar. Thank you Alderman Vanderwele. On the minutes last time you know all of us working together watching what we're all doing I think is a good idea because the minutes say that I was sitting up there last time and I don't think I was. But you know these innocent little mistakes and they truly are innocent but we have to watch all of our details and get all of our information straight all the time. Thank you. Thank you Alderman Montemar for pointing that out. We will fix that. Moving on. First I'd like to thank everybody for coming tonight because this is now our second Committee of the Whole meeting this week and just the fact that we're all here and we have so many Committee meetings I just thank you for coming. Your commitment is just unbelievable. Thank you. And then we'll go with a discussion regarding possible locations for a new police facility with including Vanderbart North 23rd Street and City Hall. Alderman Graf. Thank you Mr. Chairman. A lot of you will notice that John Sabanash is here from Zimmerman and Associates. The reason he's here is because building use did invite him to discuss item number 11 which is the RC and resolution regarding the contract for the police facility and City Hall architectural services which was referred to this committee. And then also during our building use committee meeting last week that we had it was discussed that we needed John to come here and answer a few questions as they come up to discussing the various building sites. And then also one thing he was charged with doing for this meeting specifically was to tell us what he could build for 8.8 million dollars which is the amount in the in that police facility and City Hall architectural service agreement. And then also the building use committee said 10 million and then 12 million. So those three figures so I would ask that privilege of the floor be granted to him to either give his presentation now or when when questions are asked. And I would so move that if that's. Thank you Alderman Graf. I don't believe we need to and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe we need to vote on it in the committee of the whole meeting that I'll just ask Mr. Sabanash to give us his presentation and discuss those items. Okay I'll try to get through this quickly but please ask questions I guess I'd rather have it be a little more interactive because we're dealing with so many variables if you kind of wait sometimes you lose how important that subject item is on the topic we're talking about. So on the information that I'm passing through I decided to because there's been a lot of discourse about sites and options and all kinds of things I decided to go back to the August 22 site study to get back to a baseline framework of how big and what order of magnitude that each of the individual sites had relative to one another. And so what you see on this sheet is is actually the base framework of what I had and I tried to highlight as best I could to try to extend ourselves out to the future and where we currently are relative to the project compared to where we were. And it's important to note that the 2005 site assessment identified construction costs in 2006 dollars so we need to project those costs into 2007. I think we've talked about that and the volatility of that market and you're all aware of that. Secondarily as part of that consideration of the project we had identified in the yellow area a building of approximately 65,000 square feet with unit costs for what I would refer to as the building at about $180 a square foot and fleet at about $102.50 a square foot. There were additional allowances for site construction and landscaping and that generated at that time a projected cost of $10,907,500. That was in comparison and the average square foot cost is $167.81 a square foot. In terms of order of magnitude what we did at that time is we extended the construction costs that had been identified by other consultants at that time into like quantities of building if you will. And we were at that time tracking a building of about 80,000 square feet that was similar to the recommendation that was generated by Engberg Anderson Moyer that had about an 80,500 square foot facility. And then the 2004 report generated by Kimmy with Stubenrock had identified a 68,000 square foot facility. So in terms of the order of magnitude we said we're probably going to be on the order of magnitude of 65,000 square feet that was a reduction of about 15,000 square feet from where we had previously identified the building program to be. There are some things that I think are important to note relative to the project. And that is that as we, because we're dealing with very general information and we extend our unit costs there are some assumptions embedded within those discussions. But I think we can say that philosophically there are certain things that we know will have good repercussions on the budget and certain things that we know that will generate more challenges than the alternatives. And so the comment that I had in there is that philosophically we will generally be more affecting at reducing the cost of the project when we're talking about a slab on grade building. It's important to note that because generally speaking it's the most cost effective way of building buildings that we have when we go to multiple stories there are stairs and elevators and things like that. That tend to increase the cost and we're not at a magnitude or a size of project that has an efficiency that we tend to see a building envelope reduction. So it's important to note that and then why would that be? And it's generally because when we get into the city hall building we're probably going to find that the comparisons that we would do elsewhere are not going to be governed by what exists here. And I think there would be a strong desire to have the building start to relate to this building. When we're talking about a building that's elsewhere we'll generally have a lot more design latitude in terms of how the building looks that would generally reduce the cost rather than increase and I tend to say that at the city hall site we would probably find that there would be people saying GY isn't their stone on the building like there is on the existing and things like that. So I think in general terms anything that we can do that gets us a slab on grade construction generally is going to help. And then lastly as we design the project it's likely we'll be more efficient in a single story building and reduce the overall size of the building. There are a series of sheets that follow the discourse about construction size in order of magnitude of the project and it's important to note that I just carried 10.9 million dollars. The effort to facilitate the discussion about what you would have for other project definitions 12 million 10.88.8 is still on this sheet, the second sheet that you have in your pack. And I kept the information that is grayed in again directly translated from what we had in the report and then took a look at City Hall 23rd Street specifically relative to other project costs. Important to note that other project costs are costs incurred relative to the design and construction of the project. Their costs that likely would be incurred and they tend to range somewhere between 30 and 50 percent of the construction budget depending on what the site is and whether certain costs are rolled into that number. And so off of the needs analysis I took a look at the City Hall on 23rd Street order of magnitude. I said well given what we know now are there certain things that given those two sites we would be able to reduce in the budget and there were some reductions. But generally we had viewed City Hall on 23rd Street at that time and even with the reductions that we looked at an order of magnitude of about 15 million dollars. The challenge that was presented to us relative to the request of the committee was okay we don't want to spend that much so if I'm working backwards from a budget as opposed to programming and then establishing a budget if I set a hard fast budget how much building does that buy? And so it's important to note that on that tabulation there's a column in there next to City Hall that I called minimum. And it's not a given that other project costs just relate directly to the cost of the project. If we really ground that down into smaller percentages smaller pieces things that we don't want to see incurred as part of the project or would come out of another budget or some other mechanism to control those costs. For the order of project that we're talking about at the smallest level we would expect that that cost would be about 2.6 million dollars. So we see that there's about a one point two point to two point eight or excuse me one point eight to two million dollar difference between that high order of magnitude that might be seen at those other sites and then this hypothetical minimum that we would really work very hard to achieve. It's important to note because as we get down into the bottom when we start working to establish the budget I'm going to take those other project costs I'm going to take them out at the outset. And so the 12 million dollar budget target I took we're not going to have a minimum we're going to have something in between I said 3.9 million dollars other project it results in a residual construction cost of about 8.1 million dollars and then the real question becomes how much square foot does that buy me at 8.1 million dollars. And philosophically what I identified in the last column is the residual square footage would be about 42,000 square feet 42,500 square feet that will relate to the program discussion that we'll have in a little bit to try to reconcile how much building that buys but it buys about 40,000 square foot of building at about $180 a square foot. Likewise backing off 10.8 million dollars and using a slightly less intensive project cost of 3.68 it results in a residual construction value of 7.1 little hair over that. The net residual square footage is 37,600 square feet and it's important to remember that in the project from where we started at 80 to where we thought we were at 65 42,000 is a substantial difference. At 8.8 million dollars total project taking out the other project cost at that very minimum level we would find ourselves with a resultant residual construction cost of about 6.1 million dollars and a likely square footage target of about 32,000 square feet. It's important to note that to achieve it I really had to look at it at that very bottom taking the fleet out we don't have an order of magnitude of building that begins to warrant the fleet being included. So we took the cheapest piece out that's not necessarily the best way to control cost if you ended up blending those dollars back into a number that had some fleet in it and less building you're going to end up getting more building because you're adding cheap space rather than and taking out expensive space rather than just taking out the more economical space. So as a comparison mechanism we'll go through the program in a moment but 12 million resulted in about 42,000 square feet of space 10.8 resulted in about 37 and a half thousand square feet and 8.8 resulted in about 32,000 square feet. As part of the packet of information that you have there are all of the resultant other project costs that are enumerated. What we're trying to do is be as transparent as we possibly can so that we can adequately define the budget. We don't want surprises or things that weren't expected because given the importance of the project the scrutiny the implications on the budget it's important to have all of those items identified. I'll go through quickly to identify where some of the major differences would lie. Other project costs building and land acquisition. The city hall site we had identified in the report a placeholder of a million dollars that would likely be required to create parking somewhere else within the city to offset the parking that was going to be relegated to the basically the building footprint. The 23rd street site we had identified about $700,000 that was roughly at the time if I remember correctly about $500,000 of land value plus about the $180,000 that likely would be imposed on the project. And the Vandervaart site which I know is a point of contention we had a one and a half million dollars which at that time was 15 acres at $100,000 an acre. So as we control the budget any of these variables change we can change the budget accordingly and control our own destiny as a decision-making body. Professional fees there are some things that are just embedded in here that are percentages of construction costs that if you reduce the cost the cost goes down by a lake percentage. So it's important to note that although we can't just unilaterally change all the variables if you make a smaller building you would expect to see some of these costs go down and professional fees would be part of that equation. There is nothing currently in the program project budget for permits and fees in terms of utility costs the costs are enumerated based on baseline costs as well as construction costs in a 12 month or an 18 month construction schedule. So when we expect to see a more complex building program that takes longer time to build we're going to pay more to temporarily heat as well as illuminate that project site. Telecommunications and technology has identified the probably two pieces that would be of interest relative to sites is that the 23rd Street site and City Hall had two different allowances in for fiber optics. We basically had to get fiber optics to a site at a $40,000 allowance at 23rd Street. If I took the minimum which curiously increases the budget I if I'm going somewhere I still have to have a fiber optic link at City Hall because our infrastructure existed we didn't have to budget for that. Likewise in terms of radio communications we had an allowance in the project budget for radio tower at the 23rd Street site and hypothetically another site see those costs come down significantly when we're talking about the City Hall site because we already have that pre-existing infrastructure. I made modifications to the furniture furnishings and equipment budget that on the minimum side would require more rehabilitated and relocated furniture and furnishings that would probably be likely when you're looking to try to make the project smaller from a budget sense. On the other project costs for special equipment assuming that if we got to the very small project that had you know down to 30,000 square feet I'm assuming I'm not building a vehicle maintenance facility and as a result I have no cost incurred for vehicle lifts so I changed that. On occupancy expenses the City Hall site we had more money in for moves because we're probably going to move more than once when we're on this site with extended construction duration the move would be more complex for the moving company. On the administrative side you're going to see design and estimating contingencies that are flat percentages of construction and then on the minimum looking at where we'd be on construction those are held as a straight percentage but they're significantly lower so where we have about a million dollars in contingencies on both City Hall and 23rd Street on that minimum it's down to six hundred thousand dollars recognizing that we have about a six million dollar construction project not a ten million dollar construction project and then in addition to that what's not taken out of this are the credits that we would see on sales tax as well as potential interest earned on the debt service during the construction time frame. Does anybody have any questions on how that is generated? Hearing none I know there was some consideration for what would a project that was significantly reduced begin to look like in terms of size of project and although I have not had a chance to review the information with the department I took a shot at saying what would I do if somebody came to me and said you gotta do something with us what would it what would that fix be and so as point of reference went in and cleaned up some things that I had in the program and in the column that I added next to the what I had defined as the 23rd Street site from the last time I tried to identify how much of the program is used by each of the individual bureaus that are housed within the facility and so what we see is that for the public areas of the building that's about three percent of the building that for administrative functions chiefs office and other overall administrative functions that's again about three percent information services which is the records area is about four communication sides about three the training components which include the locker facilities that could be located virtually anywhere in these categories what happens to be in training is about 14 percent the fleet operations is broken into two pieces it's generally vehicle storage and other things where vehicles are parked and then other contributing pieces like bike and bulk storage decontamination medical storage that are usually associated with garage space that directly assignable space is about two percent and the garage and other fleet storage and servicing components are about 37 percent of the program investigations and evidence management are about six percent a portion of evidence management includes vehicle impound and vehicle evidence capacity so there's some vehicle in there but it's about six percent of the total program patrol is about nine percent prisoner processing booking components within the building are about four miscellaneous and shared spaces are about one and then building maintenance uh mechanical spaces in the lake are about eight percent um looking at that current program it's about seventy thousand square feet we would we would find a mechanism to get it to the sixty five thousand i think that that was doable uh but the other scenarios i think are potentially of interest okay so somebody says to me twelve million dollars forty two thousand five hundred square feet how do you do it um i would tend to say that first and foremost you have to get rid of the fleet forty two thousand you know when you're at sixty five thousand and you need to get to forty two five you'd probably take a look at the biggest spaces first and then i made modest reductions in other program components again indiscriminate of how they might have impacted the building as a whole to try to get to where we need it to be and what you see is it's doable but um there are some compromises generally speaking though if we're looking at yes mr. seven yes um ullerman groff has a question one of the questions that did come up in building use when we were looking at these columns on the other hand out that you'd given us is um large spaces yes what is your definition of how do you define large spaces so at least we have some idea of what that means when we see it on these i'll get up i'll get a sheet that has something that's large on let's say it's uh let's actually use fleet when we're referring to large spaces we're referring to programmed areas in this case vehicle storage that generally have the net to gross more accurately defined within them so they're generally big areas that we've programmed to accommodate things that don't require additional square footage contributory to them to be imposed on them we're looking at small spaces there are mathematical exercises that we go to to define how big the building is and they're generally percentages that are applied to what's the net square footage or the usable area of the building to define how ultimately big it is and it takes into account things like corridors things like wall thicknesses building envelope things that make the building bigger just by their nature to fit the 120 square foot 150 square foot spaces in a building as a whole and so when we get the large spaces generally when we do the program they're as big as they would ultimately need to be and they therefore can stand alone and they don't get multiplied out with as vigorous or as aggressive a multiplying factor as we see elsewhere that generally is in areas where we have workstations and cubicles areas where we have uh vehicle parking and things of that nature that just don't require a bigger building than it would be otherwise and so to get to the 43,000 square feet i generally looked at it and said well if we try to keep most of the building in place and that's defined in that first row we see that the net building that's residual is largely intact but clearly we've taken a substantial amount of space out of the vehicle storage that's in that column that says large spaces but it's really the vehicle storage that takes the hit to try to get close to the 425 and as close as i could get without making any substantial modifications they got to about 43,000 square feet uh it's still too big you'd still have to make some cuts but you would say you're well within striking distance at that level to hit your target score footage on the 10.8 million i said that's not enough i got to get back to about 37,600 square feet so i just did a random about 10 percent across the board cut said jeez you just take it you cut it whatever it is you hold the you hold the the bureau to about the size that it needs to be as a function of how big it is and you just reduce so if it's 120 square foot office you cut it by 10 percent whatever you're left with is what you're left with and that effort proved to be beneficial from a score footage targeting standpoint and that it got down to about 37,500 square feet so it's very close again to the target score footage the last scenario was the most radical in that we were going from basically 65,000 to about 32,000 square feet and there i did a i did the 10 cut and then i cut it again by anywhere between 10 and 15 percent sometimes less uh but it's important to note that in addition to that where we start getting zeros for fleet now we start getting zeros in for communications i can't imagine not running with communications but it's a it's a point of identifying how drastic the need would be to cut score footage to hit your budget looking at other changes within fleet operations uh evidence management you know prisoner processing again i can't i i couldn't actually imagine to get to 8.8 cutting that component but that's the kind of drastic technique that would have to be imposed to get from 65,000 square feet to 32,000 square feet so that i mean there's no there's no happy solution if you're looking to get to a lower threshold building costs are what they are they keep going up um score footage is needed i mean we're in about 15,000 square feet here that would be about a double in terms of size so i mean it's significant but it would be a drastic cut in program especially in light of the comparison data at the outset that was about 68 to 80,000 square feet from independent consultants so um i hope that gives you a better grasp of how much work would have to happen to hit those targets and some i think would probably be a little easier to take it's only very difficult but that's the way we would approach it if you said hit a number and at a certain point i would tend to say you just you can't live with that kind of solution i can't imagine like i said i can't imagine getting rid of prisoner processing and holding uh you'd try to find something else i would guess mr. seven ash yes um i have alderman susha who has a question thank you um first of all have you taken into consideration that we've got the detention center on the south side of town and currently when we have violent criminals that's where they're processed because they need to be put in jail so you know eliminating that space might be a possibility i know that uh not everybody would necessarily be going to jail that's coming to the police station but violent criminals are already going there so it's not that far fetched i appreciate the fact that you finally showed us what a building would look like for 8.8 million dollars because that is what is in your contract is the budget of 8.8 million so i'm glad to see that you're finally identifying what we could get um in regards to the communication bureau cutting that out there has been talk over the years about combining uh communications with the county and this would be a wonderful opportunity to open up a discussion to go that route in regards to eliminating the fleet operations that is something that was discussed in the building use uh committee last week and you know when you look at the the city's table of organization we have a fleet division for transit we have mechanics for transit we have mechanics for the fire department we've got mechanics for the police department we've got mechanics for public works we've got mechanics all over the place and it sure would be nice if we could consolidate some of that work you know we've got all these different sets of tools and all these different garages throughout the city so um i appreciate the fact that you took that into consideration to eliminate that um i have a question in regards to the 180 dollars square foot amount i did receive an email from um a constituent who was was questioning how we computed that so if you could just refresh my memory and everybody watching at home where did the 180 dollars of square foot come from uh it's based on project costs that we've seen in the bid environment as well as comparison cost data on other lake projects it places us at about the 50th percentile nationally where there's half the project cost more per square foot half cost less okay thank you did you want me to answer any of the questions that you had i'd like to maybe address the lock up we're not building a jail here okay to secure transfer point for the processing of people who are in custody including photographic and fingerprint um recording and information gathering that is isolated from the majority of the rest of the building so when we're talking about the detention of people in custody we're not building a detention facility but it is the place that in all police departments allows people who are working within the building to photograph and fingerprint and question people without going into the main body of the building so it's not a jail and if somebody was going to be held they would be taken to county holding facilities in accordance with normal law enforcement protocol but in this case it's a place to actually retrieve information from people who are brought into the building that may be less than cooperative we have another question president per yes thank you mr chairman uh jamesville does not have maintenance per se as part of their program they do however have an impound area and their sally port is built and structured as part of the total total building wrap to allow for storage of the squad cars that are currently in fleet use allows for some some of the forensic kind of detail you need when you've got a car in impound and also allows for one or two square squad storages would you foresee that type of design as being part of when you structure the sally port or would you take out virtually any onsite storage for the vehicles that are in current use that are just maybe at the station for processing of a prisoner or what have you that's a design question that i i don't have an answer for quite yet but clearly to achieve a budget we've looked at the fleet as one of the major governing factors and how big the building is it doesn't sort of trip that trigger until i philosophically got to that about that 10.8 million dollar level and then i started to look at evidence management and prisoner processing that were vehicle related so one may look at that and say that that and without consultation of the department and it's a little presumptive to say that that's acceptable to them we were focusing philosophically i was focusing on big chunks that kept those major sort of programmatic functions in place specifically vehicle processing that was related to vehicle evidence knowing that impound is elsewhere we still need to remove physical evidence from vehicles and then secondarily the sally port which i view as a as a separate and distinct item even though it can be co-located within a fleet storage space. Alderman Serta you have a question. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to point out here and Mr. Sabines you weren't privy to this information but looking at these numbers van der Vaart exceeds your cost estimates about three million dollars but that's taking into consideration that that was 15 acres and just for the public in the current the common council that that has possibly been subject to change. Also under the i have two questions under the building and land acquisition costs for city hall do you foresee exceeding the 0.6 acres that we currently have available will we need additional space? Well when we were looking at that from a comparison standpoint we acknowledge that if we built on the city hall property that there might be some need want or other effort made to offset that parking by acquiring something elsewhere. If you as an example said i don't care about that one parking is what it is whatever we have is what we have then you would basically take the million dollars out of the budget and you would not offset that parking elsewhere. So you know even looking at this if you changed van der Vaart to whatever it is four hundred thousand five hundred thousand philosophically allows you to get that comparison media in place and make those comparisons within each of the individual categories. Additionally on page four earmarked for van der Vaart seems to be at the most disadvantage with thirty thousand dollars for landscaping design could you just elaborate on what that was earmarked for? Yeah we viewed that one as a fairly complex site and that it was a it's a hilly terrain there was probably a lot of pre-existing vegetation that would be difficult and then the soil conditions given that it was highly compacted would probably be difficult for landscaping and so we viewed that as a probable site premium relative to the other ones. And just lastly I just might add beyond I would ask wherever you feel appropriate to just have the chief just explain how the efficient it would affect the efficiencies of your office if indeed we took out the vehicle storage and then how it would affect the efficiencies to if we didn't have prisoners processed in your department here. And maybe I guess maybe I didn't accurately identify and do we want to go through the individual categories of ideas that the committee had? Is that a bad idea? I have a few people along. I'm going to ask you some questions right now chief we'll hold up with that if that's okay Alderman Recky. Thank you Mr Chairman is it possible we can have the lights back on it's very difficult to read the papers in front of us and we can't see the overhead projector from here anyway thank you. All right thank you Alderman Graf. John you had said that a slab on grade was the most economical. Based on we have two areas basically that we can have a slab on grade as of right now is there any area that is in your opinion better suited for a slab on grade or is there some concerns that you might have if I'll just address the three sites because I think philosophically those are the three that are of the most interest. The 23rd Street site would accommodate a slab on grade building even when we're looking at the size of building the 80,000 square feet it was a fairly tight site we're smaller than that now I would tend to say that it would still accommodate a project of this type. One of the things that we viewed sort of negatively about van de Vart at the time we did the analysis was the magnitude of the site if the site becomes smaller that generally would be beneficial we really had no use for about 10 of the acres and so it had a sort of a raining down effect on how we viewed that site as a whole if you took a piece of it and said well is that acceptable for a use that we're talking about here I would tend to say yes I think there's still some uncertainties there I would be a little cautious about what happens from a geotechnical sense you know I think that you want to make sure that you're you're going to be adequate in terms of the geotechnical but it's the same uncertainty we want to make sure that the bearing capacities of the of the the site are adequate but it would be the same due diligence that you would hold on the 23rd Street site or any other site and the thing to remember is we're never really as concerned with what's happening on the top four feet it's what's under the top four feet that's where the foundation bears and that's the most important aspect of it so we're concerned about what happens four feet down because that's where you sink a lot of money potentially without a lot of building space as a result the city hall site again was from the from the viewpoint of how big the building was at the time the analysis was done held the project program and in a smaller program it would also hold the program the challenge that we have on this site relative to slab on grade is that we have a building datum here a first floor that's two to three feet above the existing grade and so the rationale at the time when we viewed the site was that with vehicle parking incorporated in the program underneath the building that made a lot of sense we've got a building that's up above the ground anyway we got something that could go on the basement that would have little programmatic impact and probably would house itself in the in a basement level quite well if you looked at it you said do a 40 000 square foot slab on grade building here then we still have a parking issue we got to deal with which was the parking that was going to go below the building and then we still have to deal with parking on the site so from the perspective of this all of the sites any of the sites that are bigger just give you more latitude in terms of design and then ultimately more flexibility can make more of those tie breaking calls in a manner that allows you to control the cost then you can on less restrictive sites thank you all member has to thank you your honor john could you just explain i think the target is it 160 to 180 square dollars per square feet is that those are roughly the number yes yes okay then on this larger sheet here i was just doing some math if i understand it properly then the last option on the far right 8.8 million we can get about 32 000 square feet yes that's a total project remember the construction budget on that was 6.1 okay but now that's i did if you spread that eight million eight and a half million over 32 000 square feet that's close to 300 dollars per square foot again that's project cost right but if i spread it over seven million which is i think it's six one i'm still over 200 again i'll go back to the calc sheet that i did at the very beginning to determine how big and that's at 8.8 if i take 2.6 of other project costs it doesn't relate to square footage now that's just what it cost to get the project built what i end up with is 6.1 of constructed dollars that's bricks and mortar guys out there with tool belts on to build the project and at that the resultant residual square footage is about 32 000 square feet so it's bricks and mortar and then there's that 2.6 that's imposed on it that inflates that cost relative to construction cost we're just talking about construction cost that's about what you would buy for about 6.1 million dollars a building it's 32 000 square feet now that would still be close to 200 185 no it should be about 180 bucks a square foot out of 5.7 hello mani thank you remind me please mr. sabin ash the site here was that going to be a two-story with parking beneath yes that's what i understood and again that the the key on this site was always that the the building was going to be up out of the ground anyway so that we aligned at the first floor and so it lent itself to having something below it because you've really already bought about three feet of wall goes down another four feet to get to bearing capacity that's seven feet of wall condition if you go down another couple of feet you've got your parking so it lent itself to that definition but it was always a multi-level design on this site do we want to go through the individual program items this i'd be looking for alderman groff to let me know if you want me to do that probably not everybody has a copy of that okay and um it was just suggestions that were made and ideas that were tossed out i know that they're um they're not all popular maybe none of them are popular but those again were done based on what were large areas that we could do do something with like for instance when i it sit on the on the list something about eliminate um the dispatch for instance that was defined as not eliminating it per se but keeping it where it is in this existing building if the property we're built here uh there were other things that were eliminate for instance a fleet and then that was explained well you still need a place to house maybe not the entire fleet but to house at least a couple cars just in case of emergencies in the colder months of the year which we do get so uh and those things would all have to be worked on but these were talking points and i'm sure they're being talked about well as everybody knows if you have a basket that's x big you have to fit x into x basket you can't fit more than that in and it gives you a grasp of how um significant the effort would be to try to fit it into that basket depending on how you define what that basket is president bird thank you mr chairman i think one of the issues when you confront construction and dollars available is the pay me now pay me later kind of phenomena uh and if i recall one of the uh approaches the school district use in their recent bonding effort was to uh create a large building yet maintain some is unfinished space so basically they had a larger building but had some maintained for future expansion and if i recall jamesville to some dig to a small degree they had some uh of that building that had the evac system in that had the availability to have portability of walls and some of the the the infrastructure sort of attributes that you would have in the building but yet it wasn't finished off i guess i would just value your observation on that approach and the economy and the efficiency of doing something like that without having everything plated out if you would it's great if you can afford it um but like everything else um if you're looking at the program reductions that we would be looking at i would tend to say that would be low on the priority list as we move from point a to point b i think that uh you still have to size the system like it was constructed all you really start to save is finished dollars and although that's significant it's not in terms of the overall magnitude of the project it wouldn't be the most cost effective way to control the budget the and i know this is probably one you've been asked before because i think i remember asking yet building a if you would a first phase and second phase where you have my plan the ability to expand as your revenue picture changes any comments you would have on that or is that a popular construction model as you design facilities such as this uh i think we would be uh remiss if we didn't consider future expansion regardless of the scope of the project i think our future expansion options are less prevalent here than other sites would be i think if we whatever we do here would tend to want to be constructed to its ultimate limit now because of the difficulty that's around us in building and i think when you're paying that difficulty factor you don't want to do it more than once i think that later on the difficulty factory becomes more and more acute on most sites that have the latitude the land latitude to do it you just basically pick a direction and where you think you're going to grow and you leave a rectangular space available and it's more logical we've talked a little bit i think even at the committee level about the likelihood of building up and that just becomes a very difficult scenario to do over a 24 7365 operations one thing to do it or something that even as minimally as over the weekend a roof can be torn off and replaced it's very difficult to do in an operational police department building so it becomes very difficult to see those scenarios playing out on this site and even if we did it we would probably say let's compress the building as much as possible and expand out to accommodate expansion options rather than going up if possible but there are certainly a lot of buildings that have uh pre-investments and structural capacity and the like it's just very difficult to do on top of a police department even easier on a city hall you know you're closed on the weekend you can you can tolerate that change in temperature and that change in conditions much more readily than a police department can hold on kittleson you had a question oh thank you mr chairman yeah just going back to this uh needs assessment for the new police facility john did you go through all of these did did you look at them yes so you do i know we've touched some of them but can you go over i guess i would like you to go over some of these and well know what you think i can do that uh first one is lobby i've said this before it's really hard to grasp i think for for many people but a lobby is a function of how many places you need to go from that lobby space i could make a hundred square foot lobby if i only had to get in the vestibule and through a door lobbies are a function of access to departments bureaus toilet rooms other functions within the building that just have barrier free requirements or circulation requirements so it would be a great yes if i just interrupt you i'll remember hassle i had a i was uh just wondering do you have the actual square feet just as we go through this just to put it in perspective sure i what i can do is i put a i put my sort of go no go list together relative to this and so when i tried to figure out what what could you do and where are we at relative to some of the decisions uh lobby space is programmed at 700 square feet you could do 500 but until you actually start designing it you know what you have to get to it's hard to say that you could so i would tend to say that at this point in the design it would be no but it could work out okay it's hard to say i mean we're still very conceptual we haven't put a building on a site yet so we don't really know where things go relative to one another um you know to get to the 65 000 square feet we made some modifications and then there are some assumptions within this program that as we're reviewing city hall relative to this project we had done some things like put additional toilet space within the police department so we didn't have to remodel existing toilets in the building and do so more economically than would be otherwise if the PD were off site it actually you'd reduce it by more than that we'd go back to 120 square feet which was part of the original program and get more square footage out then was originally identified so that was a you know that's one of those that you just look at and you go well why wouldn't we do it absolutely on the administrative side you know i just can't answer an operational question um that's really something for the chief to address with you so i made it a yellow it's not a under no circumstances it was uh you'd have to talk about it i i know that uh how organizations are structured changes readily uh the way we're currently organized as a as a department it wouldn't work but i don't know what the chief has in mind you know i don't know if he's going to go to an assistant chief in the future in which case there'll only be one i know that uh thinking about um deputy chief duties relative to investigations you'd probably have somebody in another rank doing it so i don't know that that would go into another office or not but as a standalone concept i think it's a major restructuring of the agency and i can't really answer that i think that's something that the agency would have to answer and we there was really nothing identified in on records you know communications uh dispatches are are strange things in that they are becoming more and more sort of technologically self-sufficient um i you know if you you blended in and became part of a larger agency and didn't have to construct the score footage this is some of the more expensive score footage we have to construct and so when we talk about the fleet being more economical communications tends to be more expensive if that didn't exist that would help us budgetarily but again that's a that's a definition of a department kind of question that i can't answer i know we currently have communications to get us where we wanted to be 20 years from now that's about how much space we would need but whether it exists as it presently exists within the building is something i can't answer for you i can only tell you that this is about how much space you'd need i know that with the technology of the space that we have we are going to be better off building it as new rather than remodeling it in this building the technology relative to this this section of the building is more economical for me to just build new than it is to try to replicate an existing so if it were to stay in the building i'm very strongly opposed to keeping it here unless we had to i'd try to find another home for it and put something else in that could tolerate existing walls existing infrastructure much more readily than say the art communications on the training bureau you know classroom space we we cut it by 10 before could you make 1500 to work you know if you have a budget problem you find a way to make it work so i would do everything i could to do that and you'd probably look at some of the other functions on this sheet aside from the ones that are enumerated i mean i we looked at the visitor toilet i said well let me take both of them out so there are some things on here that i think if you progress from point a to point b you'd look at very very rigorously and then when you you sum this up maybe you hit your 10 threshold that you are searching for by hitting one large space and finding a way to make it work with a number of different functions in it and then some of the other spaces would be relatively unscathed so you know on that one i didn't really see any problems with it i think fitness is a major discussion topic i haven't done a state of the art pd that did not have fitness associated with it so um you know police don't operate on normal schedules a lot of times and so it's very difficult although it's it's realistic to say it could be done another way the chance of it actually happening that way becomes slimmer and slimmer it's like being in a health club anywhere the farther away from your house the chance of you using it goes down logarithmically i think so it's great to have it so i i mean i i can't look at that and say wow that would be the the magic bullet here everything you're talking about would be you swallow hard and say boy what can we live with or without on the fleet operation side you know there are agencies that have vehicle maintenance associated with we did one with old creek there are other agencies where we don't have it west ellison oak creek have it uh franklin's new building janesville the new building they don't have it so i again i view that as an operational discussion vehicle storage um it's the most contentious topic we ever have on police department facilities and this is why i think it's because i have a car everybody in here has a car everybody knows what cars where they want to be in the winter time and things like that and there are people who have their car and it's not in a closed environment and so as a taxpayer you look at that and i mean i park on the street in milwaukee and i have one garage space and two cars and mine sits on the street but i don't have a shotgun in it and i don't have a couple thousand dollars worth of computer equipment in it i want to potentially have a defibrillator in it and if i did i tend to take that stuff and i tend to hide it in the car and you know enclosed vehicle storage is a very precious thing and it's very important to most agencies and most buildings that we do have some form of vehicle storage order of magnitude can be discussed from here to kingdom come is it five spaces or 50 20 or 24 um but virtually every police department that we've done work with them uh in climates like this has enclosed vehicle storage again it's magnitude we're talking about but it would be very difficult to just say unilaterally we're going to get rid of it so that's a very tough tough tough tough tough question so i mean those i view as largely i can tell you what we're doing i can tell you what everybody else is doing i don't know that i can tell you it's the magic bullet i i can't prioritize for the department and these a lot of these are prioritizations on detective side i can i can look at that and go jeez to make the investigators offices about 112 square feet or something smaller i know i can make an effective investigator office i can't get a guest chair in so if we're doing an an interview in that space and they were expecting to have somebody in their office we're starting to get so small that i can't get some of the functions that were expected to be happening in that office in that office and so when we look at that and then say detective interview i mean those are really the information gathering zones that the bureau manages it will have microphone technology digital recording and in terms of cctv that are part of the attorney general topics of how information is gathered by law enforcement that if you took it away i think would be a real hardship uh id detective that was future growth i mean i you when you get to the point where you're looking at 68 to 40 i mean i think future growth is kind of off the table that's where shell space and all those discussion topics from my perspective i'd take the future growth and say we're not doing it but again that one's not that's not my call either so but i think when you're looking at that order of magnitude change you have to take future growth kind of off the table that's a luxury then in terms of evidence management it was something identified at about 700 i'm going to say it was impound but i'm not sure so i was interpreting that impound currently is housed off site would continue to be housed off site this is a place to process vehicles that are part of the chain of evidence so they have they have materials on them that are going to be removed by people within the agency evidence technicians to gather the evidence and it is optimally located proximate to the evidence storage um so that would be a hard one we have two spaces i mean i tend to look at it and go geez can we make it one rather than getting rid of it as a whole on the patrol site again if i'm remembering correct it was about nine percent there were i think two pieces that were identified dare in court services and i tend to think that you go with the stuff that has the least impact and you keep as much of the vital day-to-day stuff as you possibly can but you'd have to look at topics just like this across the board to achieve what you want to achieve prisoner processing and holding i don't know that you couldn't make it work without this this is the place where every patrol guy that wears a uniform comes in with somebody who is not acting in a way that's appropriate and i don't want those people in the building as a whole it's a tough space it's a tough space for tough people um again if i was to approach this i would say boy you'd hit the you really need to have four interrogation rooms can you get away with two spaces in the vehicle sallyport rather than unilaterally saying we're going to get rid of something or relegate it to the you know alternate bid kind of profile or alternate bid um methodology you know clerk a court area there can be another solution to that but again it's a it's easy to pick on the small things you gotta hit the big ones miscellaneous and shared sure i can make a smaller kitchen you know absolutely when you're running into a budget problem you hit the things that you can hit and you take advantage of everything you can take advantage of and then building maintenance like other things in the project a lot of this is ratcheted up by the size of the building so you make it smaller if you can but there is no magic solution here i can't say i'm going to go to rooftop equipment make the project i can make the project smaller it's not necessarily going to be cheaper so i can do a lot of things that make the project order of magnitude less in terms of square footage but when we're talking about the the the number it's a big number and so there would have to be you'd have to be looking at taking some bone away along the way it would be a very difficult process hold them in hand on you i just want to clarify on the the school district when they when they built out unused space that was really at the end of the project and it was due to the fact that we had earnings in excess of our projected earnings so it was it was an after the fact discussion so i think when you go through this process i think you want to you want to have that short list of things you'd like to do if any other money became available and that's how that came about thank you sir the questions element sushi thank you mr chairman um just some food for thought it looks like if we were to eliminate um building the garage at this point in time we would save approximately 1.7 million dollars is that true yeah that's okay each year the council approves three to three and a half million dollars of capital improvements and i don't know if down the road if we could build this in phases where perhaps you know two or three years down the road this could come into capital improvements the the need for it at that time could be evaluated and if it's passed it would easily fall into that budget if that's a possibility um just something to think about and the other thing is is that you had mentioned the hundred and eighty dollars of square foot is just an average um i don't know if it would be possible but if we used less expensive materials perhaps we could get that cost down to about a hundred and forty dollars a square foot and in that case then we would get almost forty two thousand square feet of building space so i think that if we look at the the type of building materials that might influence how much we're actually paying um that will be very difficult i'm not going to say it's impossible but there are um let me just see if i've got the old um again the thing to remember is that uh i can do anything cheap and that's not always in anybody's best interest to do it economically that way um economically doesn't i can always do something for less money maybe i misstated that there are certain things that i think as a municipality with the trust of the taxpayers money over the long haul we wouldn't want it cheaper so um there are often projects where we will do alternate materials alternate systems i think that that's given what we would have to do all of those items are on the table for discussion um but i think that the hundred and forty dollar a square foot would be very very ambitious uh given the current bid market very tough vice president serda thank you mr chairman i'm just going to shift gears i understand we're talking about square footage but just going back to your report um looking on page 10 again going back to vandervar it's been earmarked that there's a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for demolition um or to vacate buildings and twenty five thousand dollars for asbestos abatement um if there's no if we were able to um gain a parcel there with no buildings would that alleviate the yes seventy five thousand dollar costs that would be a cost savings yes then on page nine for a walk in cooler um it looks like at north twenty third it would be five thousand dollars but yet at vandervar it's nine thousand five hundred oh i didn't make any modifications off those gray columns so i i kept that intact because i i it was good to have a reference point from where we were if we looked at vandervar um in the same consideration that i took a look at at city hall on twenty third because those have been on the table longer we would make the same critical assessments of that vandervar project budget as well and i think you'd see some of those numbers changing but uh much like that that number didn't change at the top it was a million five if it becomes something else then it's an interactive budget so we can adapt it accordingly and i'll just point out as well too and you and like you you had just given an explanation but like for chalk and markboards um nothing was earmarked for city hall or twenty third street site and i guess i'm looking more as a comparable for twenty third because we're starting from nothing but yet vandervar it was charged five thousand dollars for chalkboards or chalk and markboards and then also under office furniture i've noticed there's an excess of seventy five thousand dollars charged for vandervar versus the other twenty third street site i reduced those project budgets because they were eighty thousand square foot and they didn't reflect how small the building was getting and then acknowledging that we're talking about square footage i i couldn't go in with the same project budget on the furniture and i the chief would probably string me up you can't spend money on furniture when you're trying to cut building program i mean they all have to be assessed unilaterally and then they have to be prioritized so i i looked at it and i said well number one we're going to have a smaller building number two depending on how big the building is those costs will probably still keep coming down so vandervar reflected just where we were back in august when we were reviewing the projects independently remember that was an eighty thousand square foot building that was imposed on all the sites so significantly bigger we would see those costs come down on vandervar much like i took a look at twenty third city hall so would you say would that also reduce its cost here then yes eighteen million yes i mean just i made this one i called it interactive so let's let's just say for the sake of argument that vandervar that became five hundred thousand and construction was ten point nine it's down to fifteen million or something and i haven't touched the other one so i mentioned that vandervar pretty close that is currently at fifteen acres whereas twenty third is at three point six so there could still be a reduction in cost right i think yeah i would tend to say that the yeah the things that we had viewed that were vandervar peculiar you'd take a look at because it's redefined and you'd say that those assumptions maybe don't hold anymore there may be something else that has to be assessed but it would be if you said look at vandervar then we do the same thing that we did with city hall twenty third and we'd say okay now that we know what this is what are the impacts on the overall budget and try to impose those same restrictions or benefits on the site the same way we did on the other two okay thank you chief kerr if you could um i know we had asked you a while going to come up but if you could maybe comment on what we've talked about so far thank you john this discussion is a huge discussion it can go on for hours and hours is it on yeah you're on it could go on for hours and hours we must remember that we're striving to build a functional and a professional police department here when you build you're building for twenty years out we're not going to be building again we've never the city's boy and has never built the police department we've been housed in a city hall a police department operates twenty four seven which means we have people on the road and as far as a garage there's a difference between maintenance area to do your work on a vehicle and a storage facility for vehicles we are responsible for operating under emergencies for emergencies last winter we had a detective that i happened to see i was looking out the window he was scraping his windows on the squad car that was parked outside before he could respond to a crime scene that should not be we have buses parked in storage garages we have fire trucks in storage facilities or in shelters garages we have dump trucks we have garbage trucks and they're housed in garages we do not have enough space in the garage for our squad cars we have shotguns we have rifles we have computers it takes approximately during the winter about a half hour to warm up the squad sufficiently to get the computers operating and we are operating under a computer aided dispatch system so what we what now happens is the cell phones must be used for communication back and forth we're striving for professionalism for example interview rooms right now we have to tape record all juvenile interviews january of next year we must record all interviews in criminal prosecutions right now we have one interview room in the detective division which means my detectives at times must wait to interview the next person they ask each other how long is your interview going to take now i used to be a detective my interviews could range from a half hour to about two and a half hours they're asking each other how long is it going to take you because i want to set up an interview that does not lead for professionalism for efficiency or for effectiveness if you're going to build the police department please give serious consideration to building it so it's functional a garage you must store your vehicles we we now have our vehicles located at four different locations we have we have them off-site our drug vehicles are located in an off-site location and or they're taken home we have a community community policing vehicle that's kept at an off-site location they're also located vehicles are located at our impound garage at our impound fenced in areas in our impound garage we have evidence vehicles and we have department vehicles we have an emergency response vehicle at the impound garage we have our dive van at the impound garage yet we have a another emergency vehicle emergency response team vehicle at our garage downtown here so if we have a complaint with weapons or a SWAT call out type of a call we we respond immediately from this location with an assortment of weapons and their equipment then we bring the rest of the equipment from an off-site location to wherever it's needed we also store our vehicles of course in our in our garage which is located right behind city hall that has about enough space for 13 vehicles we currently have 42 vehicles in our fleet or we have vehicles that are taken home now the difference sort of vehicles we have we have a motorcycle we have two trucks a four-wheel drive truck which we use to pull out vehicles when they're stuck in the snow or to get to emergencies during heavy snowfall when you have an emergency during a blizzard who do you call you call the fire you call public works or at least we call public works to plow us a path to get there or we use the four-wheel drive four-wheel drive vehicle to get there for an emergency we have another truck for the community service officers we have unmarked vehicles we have marked vehicles we have drug vehicles we have emergency response vehicles we have electronic technicians vehicle which is the rush riner that handles the communications of the entire city and most of the county we have a patty wagon for those disruptive people we have a patty wagon now that some of those vehicles are needed in house at the station a patty wagon when you need it you call for it sometimes it's on the road on busier nights but for the majority of times it sits in the in the garage until it's needed we have different lifespans on each of these vehicles and we have worked on those lifespans over the years to get the most years of service out of these vehicles so as we as we look at some of this for example our impound garage it's an impound garage but it's also used we have a shower we have a bathroom there for anyone that handles or it gets exposed to bloodborne pathogens if they're exposed to blood under on their equipment we send them down to impound and to keep them away from the general fleet and the general equipment where they can then take a shower rinse off down at impound some place you need a shower you don't want to bring these people back to the department to use the in-house shower in the locker room because as you walk through the department you're exposing or you're you know leaving a trail of blood or other fluids in these in these other buildings so now we have our shower down there in the garage if we use oc spray we now have there a eye wash out area where people are under arrest we bring them here we rinse out the eyes and or take them up to the hospital for medical attention in the impound garage if I could get back to that location we store evidence in that location we store property we have a storage of vehicles that are used in crimes we store our vehicles that are needed to be processed we have an area there where we process evidence for fuming of fingerprints and different things of that nature because we don't have enough space in in this facility here we have if you it'd be very interesting I wish we could show you some of our and I would ask that before we make these decisions that we could then show you some of these locations to show you how tightly cramped we are in certain areas especially I'll take you pictures of the evidence from we won't go into evidence but if we go down to impound we have a three shelf system where it's from the floor up to the top of the the ceiling and it's lined with property and or evidence we have our our property and or evidence located in various city or various city location impound garage a evidence locker in between deputy chief weiss is in my office we also have it locked in the basement we're finding any nook and cranny to locate some of this property and or evidence and we are we are tight for space obviously so as you know when john john indicates that some of these decisions need to be made by the administration he's absolutely correct because I'm going to have my name attached to this police department hopefully the construction is completed during my tenure but your names are also going to be attached to this police department do we need to look at it and to do the best we can oh certainly certainly we need to do that but to not to have a vehicle storage does not make sense to me whatsoever vehicle maintenance is another issue that we could discuss later there's a lot of issues that we should discuss we should hear from us you should have your questions answered and then let's make a decision on this but you cannot be in a northern climate without a garage for your vehicles you just you just can't do that because if you don't have a garage anyone who comes in and processes in a person or has an evaluation or takes a break they come out if their windows are fogged over when we respond to an ambulance call we don't have time to wait and scrape off windows during the winter they park them inside the garage so their windows are clean chief if i could just ask you to uh to tell us what does the state require us how long to save the evidence with evidence storage if i remember correctly we're required to save certain types evidence for a certain amount of time if it has dna evidence on it blood fluids body fluids it's required for the life of that person or until he is is out of incarceration but if you have a homicide or something that a person receives a life sentence that must be retained for that person's incarceration period so basically for life of that person so that's that's those types of of pieces of evidence now if you have a misdemeanor misdemeanor can be charged anywhere i believe bob i'm still correct on this seven years or six years so if you commit a misdemeanor if we have the evidence we can still charge you six to seven years after that but now if you're incarcerated because of that now we have to hang on to that incarceration if it has dna evidence and or other evidence which could um be used later for your innocence um we're required to do that so some pieces for life is there any other questions for chief kirk holman born thank you mr chairman uh chief would it be a possibility for a garage that would be immediately adjacent to the regular building that you know if i could use a name like a butler building that possibly could be made you know less less expensive than the main structure but have a garage but like a butler building that could be made less expensively than having a part of the main structure i mean would that if if it financially would work to save money would that be something you could live with in speaking with john savon ash we would sit down and discuss that if that's feasible we must remember that it has to be alarmed so it's not for example just recently we had a vehicle an evidentiary vehicle in our impound area you know stolen it was stolen from the police impound area should not happen we should not have egg on our face but it was now if in fact we can build a cheaper designed building a storage area absolutely absolutely what we're trying to do is we understand there's a tight budget we do but please let's build what's needed and what we can afford but our vehicles that are left out outside we've haven't damaged we had blood splattered on them we had um when the atf was here alcohol tobacco and firearms we had their vehicles slashed or the tiger slashed on our vehicle that's not right it should be locked up we locked up buses and other city-owned vehicles thank you all the money thank you mr. chairman simple question uh with the fleet space as currently proposed uh i presume that includes vehicle maintenance but i can't remember is that correct i believe we would be asking for vehicle maintenance also yes the seventeen thousand square feet would be adequate for that as well i believe so oh no i'm sorry you could comment on that or i'm sorry all of them yeah mr. seven ash you don't want that job they're all lumped in but they're two separate components so the seventeen five is pure vehicle storage but there are other functions enumerated on that sheet that incorporate uh bike and bulk storage decontamination and then other vehicle maintenance items and i think that actually has a radio shop on it too go ahead if i could just explain how we purchase our vehicles there's different ways of purchasing squad cars one is to come fully equipped we don't do that we buy a bare bones stripped down version of a squad car and then we have dave daniels russ schreiner rick nye work together to put the pieces together because we use the same cages year after year we use the same shotgun and rifle cage uh holding rack so we use the same things over and over and we devise our own little uh efforts to cut down the cost so in that area for the the radio repair area and things of this nature that's why it's essential because some of these vehicles if they're on if they can be worked on they're worked on with the crew that is at city hall holand mire um thank you mr chairman um if this would be moved to the 23rd street site could not the salt shed that is now standing on 23rd street could that not be used for something for storing cars and could not the garage we have right now still be used i'm trying to remember what i i i saw of a salt shed over there i don't believe it could be used for vehicle storage but i could be wrong as far as using the current garage yet for vehicle storage as you try to get more efficient with your operation over the years when when i when i work patrol we would be given a squad number dave your assignment today is squad 14 bob yours is 15 and so on and you would wait for that vehicle to come because this would vehicle main management system now we give a key they're all key the same and say when a squad comes you grab the first one that's available to get on the road at roll call there which is downstairs if you locate your vehicles someplace else you have to wait to get your cops your patrolmen community service officers whomever to the vehicles you're cutting down on the efficiency and when you need a vehicle at a certain location right now we go outside we jump into a car we take off if you have to wait to get our officers from city hall down to public works and or from 23rd street down to the city hall you're wasting about estimated 10 to 12 minutes one way get the cops in the car what cars do you have to transport and and but it's very very inefficient very inefficiency uh very very inefficient especially as you're looking at times where you're trying to get better and better and respond to the number of complaints we have holerman raki thank you mr chairman i guess the question i would have is today's newer technology what type of vehicle maintenance do we do in house today is it more or less just tire changes oil changes routine maintenance what do we actually do in house today and would that require us to have a full full maintenance facility or just pretty much a bare bones because we don't do the major engine overhauls and things in house we do do engine work you know yes we do in fact we just are doing one right now or we're just completed one right now for the most part i would i would say that that answer should be provided to you by my mechanic dave daniels however we do do a lot of preventive maintenance we do advantage that we have downstairs is that if in fact an officer comes in with someone under arrest or for some reason for a valuation or a consultation with the supervisor what have you dave daniels is aware gets that vehicle in for some of the minor repair work there was a vehicle that was brought in the officer stopped in with a person under arrest last year where the mechanics melt the smoke something burning and there was a the wires were catching on fire in the trunk last year but he does a lot of preventive maintenance and one thing that he does not any longer do because they can't is he would deal with the um not a mechanic but with the rotors or the the ball joints and he would even though there was no area to inject oil or grease into that area he would use a syringe which was a technique some of the mechanics were using to go shoot through the rubber to inject the degrees to keep them up and last longer now we're having problems with some of the rear axles because of that they're no longer able to do that because they don't have the the rubber gasket there so we're having some rear engines I mean the rear axles I should say I'm sorry that are are seeing some some damage and they need to be replaced this year but I wish I can't give you a full answer and I that's a good question I can get you that answer thank you is there any other questions from the alderman thank you chief then we move on to the agenda uh i'll remain thank you mr chairman I would like rich gebbhart for a moment to speak to us just to put this overall conversation perspective and that would be a debt service on 9 12 or 15 million dollars over the life of the bonding so we'd have some sense of impact as to what the cost of a police facility would be on the average household in shabuigan and I think the value of that average house would be important to note as well we could then see where we stand in relationship to that thank you mr chairman um I have some numbers here I guess it'd be pretty close to I think with all Romani's requesting um I did a projection actually this was done one year ago this month for this study also at 8.8 million we'd be looking somewhere around if you take an average parcel being around a hundred thousand dollar parcel probably around 40 dollars per year um 400,000 parcel that's over you know 20 year period of course I have another projection that was made at 16 million and that would be around average around 60 to 70 dollars per thousand per per year 400,000 parcel um generally speaking you're looking at for the interest on the principal is being about over 20 years about two-thirds of the principal amount so if you're looking at for every one million you're looking between 600 and 700 thousand dollars a principle of interest over 20 years um so I guess you know on that basis uh I guess per every one million dollars it's about five dollars per year for a hundred thousand dollar parcel and the answer is the questions thank you mr chairman uh do those dollar figures include the additional expense of the utilities and the extra maintenance people that would be needed to upkeep the facility this just to borrow the money this is just a debt service this is just the interest on issuing the debt so there would be additional costs on top of that that would also right the operating cost would not be included in the debt issue thank you am I am I correct to believe this those numbers also include land acquisition well they would include that level of principal would be up to the council how they would allocate that how much to land how much to building home and graph thank you just so I get this here for a hundred thousand dollar home you said forty dollars and that's forty dollars per year not per thousand though that's per year on a hundred thousand dollar home correct and that forty dollars would be for the debt service on borrowing six point eight million or eight point eight million okay thank you Alderman Bohr uh thank you mr chairman uh rich would you go over uh I maybe missed something what would be the yearly debt service on the eight point eight million um it is going to of course vary you know we'd be looking uh initially in the first year because there's to be a part years half a year's interest or sold be a couple hundred thousand uh to depend again on what level you borrow it could be a couple hundred thousand to you know three hundred and sixty thousand or sold depending on so for a for a full well let's say let's say assuming uh if we did a full you know 2007 for the full year what would be the uh what would be the debt service uh when you're looking at uh principal as well as interest down there uh you're looking around six hundred to eight hundred thousand depending on what principal's schedule you're at and what the interest level is per per year per year yes thank you thank you so any other questions for mr. gibbard Alderman Meyer um thank you mr chairman um do you have any um operating cost projections for the new um police facility I don't have that with me I think last capital improvements program there were some operating costs that were included in the request but I don't have that available with me right now could get that for you later was made by the police department when they surveyed some other similar new buildings thanks there's no other questions thank you thank you and uh we move on to the agenda uh move on with resolution number 580607 by alderman ryan and serda requesting that the common council by way of the community of the whole accepts new information and a proposal regarding the vandivert property located on south business drive and broadway so that it may consider such site for the future home of shaborgans new police station alderman ryan uh thank you mr chairman since uh the vandivert property was uh uh basically uh tabled as an option um last year whenever uh it was it was chosen not to be the site some uh some things have changed I do have a letter here which was given to me by the folks at vandivert today um which states uh since last summer vandivert has proceeded with plans to renovate the property owned at 14 street and broadway avenue with the intention of either relocating some of our other sites to this one or preparing the land for sale in whole or in part um since vandivert may be staying on a portion of the land we are now in a position to consider selling parcel or parcels rather than just the whole property the land is of varying value and as stated in the appraisal done last year smaller parcels are worth more than the whole 17.67 acres as one parcel price range per acre is $125,000 to $175,000 depending on the location of the acreage obviously the corner of 14th and broadway is the most valuable attached our recent maps in the phase one environmental study previously provided to the council vandivert has been involved in talks with the company needing to get rid of clean fill and willing to provide such feel free of charge vandivert would be willing to put the city in touch with that company if the city so desires vandivert is also willing to offer the city the right of first refusal on the rest of the acreage at the site should vandivert decide to relocate this came from vandivert company today um basically uh in my speaking with mr harvey of vandivert company uh mike harvey the owner of vandivert um there is 17 and a half acre 17.67 acres uh total now vandivert presently has their offices in the majority of their uh operations uh moved up to the north end of the property which is the higher ground and actually exits on 15th and 16th street um they are in the process of vacating including removing the buildings on the south end of the property which uh borders uh south business drive and broadway avenue and from what they provided to me on the property site um they pointed out that they would possibly be willing to partition off which they did provide me some maps i wish i had more of them but basically the higher ground bordering um the rear of the property which would be the broadway avenue with the higher ground it's approximately five six possibly seven acres they would partition off uh four to five of that if the city was willing to make an offer on it uh this is the the ground which uh borders the alley in the rear uh would have access to 16th street and also broadway avenue this is not the lower property uh what is known as the hole on the property right now that has a couple of existing buildings uh they are planning on on demolishing those buildings and moving forward with the filling of that particular property the property that i believe that the city may be interested in looking at is the higher ground it is level ground and i believe would be suitable for uh the police department thank you old man ryan uh old man graf thank you i was just wondering um number one i'm sure we'd all like copies of of that if if available so um as soon as we can get them um that would be appreciated and where we're in proximity to this acreage are the railroad tracks which the railroad tracks presently are on uh self-business drive which is the front of the property okay uh the railroad tracks no longer used but it is still owned by the railroad the property here speaking of here is on the rear of the property entering off of broadway and 16th street which would be the high area okay all right so as they're not even close to the railroad tracks no it's not close okay thank you hello man hannah yes alderman ryan uh to the best of your knowledge the acres you're talking about has there ever been a structure on those on the higher ground according to the phase one environmental there there is no record of any structures on that particular ground there is a large berm which is strictly an earthen burn that they uh they erected to try to uh keep some of their beautiful operations away from the view of the neighborhood this is strictly dirt it was piled up by we had about 15 years ago it could be it strictly earned and could be leveled out it's just as easily I do have uh copies of the phase one and five that will be awesome thank you alderman born thank you mr chairman uh alderman ryan could you repeat those figures on what the possibility the cost per acre would be a little more the through the numbers out here that they said that uh price per acre is 125 000 to 175 000 depending on the location of the acreage obviously the corner of 14th and broadway being the most valuable or is the most valuable what they're speaking of there is what is presently the area which is sunken in which is your corner of 14th and broadway as far as any retail space that's what they're talking about that being the most valuable property because of the the visibility of it obviously thank you alderman reckey hey mr chairman um 16th street is the access to that property there is no access from that upper area to broadway avenue there is a church and a manufacturing facility between the alley and there's a couple parcels up there how would we get around those people would we have to erect the street what's the possibility because right now the only way in and out of there 16th street off from george avenue there is a cutout presently a curb cutout on broadway avenue approximately right here if this property were leveled off and if this is indeed filled in there would be a an entrance right on broadway avenue 16th street in accordance comes in on the other end of the property if you're looking at the at the high ground up here could be coming in down here and also here the alley is behind it but obviously i don't believe the city is going to be interested in using alleys for police vehicles my just a quick follow-up question now there have to be some more filling here to level this thing out to get squad cars in and out what are the regulatory and all this phil and we were hearing phil we're hearing stories about local companies wanted to drop clean phil what is the regulatory on that with the dnr is there special permits or things we'd have to get maybe mr holton could answer that question if i can answer one portion of it the the phil that vandervaard is referring to right now is a company which disposes of which finds new homes for foundry sand which is a clean phil i mean it's it starts out as sand you put your your your foundry work into it and afterward the mold is crushed and turns back into a sand it's clean phil it is not a it is not hazardous it is not a pollutant that is the majority of what they would be looking to use in order to fill up the low ground on this property but again i'd like to just ask what a regulatory and and sand and things like that i mean is is it uh structurally sound i mean is it going to crumble apart like it does in the beach i mean mr holton can maybe answer that question mr holton if you could come up and answer that question for us thank you mr chairman you would need a permit from the dnr to for land disturbing activities uh which is there's a fee for that i think it's based on the amount of land that's disturbed there's a fee with the city also for that for inspection of the erosion control then the material i assume you're talking about like foundry sand and that is possible to use for phil we use it before on bridge approaches the mill road bridge for when we used it for so that is possible only graph did you have a question for tom or all right go ahead oh um i believe you had said that the most expensive would be the smaller portions the most expensive what they referred to would not be the smaller portions but would be the most visible portions which could be used for for retail use okay then if we purchased a four to five acre site what what is i guess what is the the size of the site that we'd have to purchase so that wouldn't be considered a um well too small for them to split up no for my understanding they would be they would be willing to part with four or five acres and that being on the on the front and what they consider to be the more realistically the more expensive sites would be the retail sites that could be developed for retail with uh you know visibility okay and are they willing to this 125 to 175 thousand dollars per acre are they willing to negotiate that i would think so so that would be up to uh mr harvey and vandervaard if it gets to that uh gets to that point is there any other questions for uh tom holton mr german ryan thank you uh mr holton speaking with the folks at vandervaard they they said that this foundry sand could be compacted to a 98 percent compaction ratio does that make sense to you yes it does you have to do some things on the outside of the slope so you have to in case it can play in but but that would be suitable for building upon then at that uh i believe so okay thank you alraman did you have a question all right alramborn did you have a question for tom holton okay time you can sit down uh alraman thank you mr german this question is for paul at enders i think she remembers in all probability what the uh price quoted year and a half ago was from vandervaard how does that price per acre compare with what they're asking today paul if you could come up here thank you and simply as she's coming forward i will note that last time around they were not willing to negotiate the sale price thank you mr chair um my recollection was and i don't have the information in front of me that it was approximately 100 000 per acre and it was approximately 18 acres and it does sound like 17.67 as close to that and at that time they weren't willing to parcel off and i think the the study that tom and i performed did note that in the when we looked at the vandervaard site okay thank you alraman sir thank you mr chairman um if there's just one thing i want to reiterate and then just um get into some things for food for thought for the council and the public and that is out of everything said here tonight one of the biggest things that surprised me is that the study that we received from mr sabin ash took into consideration all the old information concerning vandervaard but um he did give a fair assessment as far as the cost conducive to the city hall in 23rd street site roughly looking at 15 million dollars the questions that i asked to make those adjustments given the new information that we have with vandervaard puts it pretty much comparable at 15 million mind you that's with a 15 acre site still there could still be some reduction in cost that would go below the 15 million dollars that's something to think about um what was said here tonight is vandervaard's looking at 125 thousand dollars per acre or 175 thousand per acre depending on where we would like to put our police station um when you look at the 23rd street site and you take into consideration from the proposal or the resolution that groff and the other members had submitted assessing the value of 23rd at 940,900 subtracting the city's portion you come to an estimate of 6,627,266 dollars i won't go into equating taking off the portion of the parking lot because i believe that can be debatable but if you would divide that by 3.6 acres we're willing to pay 174,000 roughly about 174,175 thousand dollars per acre at 23rd street site mind you again the cost could be reduced from that 15 million because they're basing that on 15 acres i did some checking today concerning our parking lot and i won't go into any great detail but i was surprised to learn that we could focus on shared services with that parking lot speaking with parking and transit i found out that there is 33 open stalls still available if there's such a need for the county i think it would be a win-win situation if they would utilize our parking spots that could give the city 16,524 dollars per year in generating revenue off that parking lot if it's in such high demand why aren't we working together and providing those spots to the county or they inquiring and utilizing those spots and some would say as far as the cost concerning that i don't know if the public is aware but the county just purchased 10 slots and adjacent to our parking stalls there and paid $91,000 for 10 slots that equates to about 9,100 per star if you would take that same amount $9,100 and times it by 51 which our stalls are that equates to about 464,100 the county could have just for taking our 33 stalls that we have left could have those stalls for the next 43 years so i think there was a lot of things mentioned tonight and again if we're looking at the bottom line is dollars it has been said by Mr. Sabinash 15 million for van der Waart you've got a central location mind you that's with 15 acres imagine what we could do if we could still go in and negotiate with van der Waart i have spoken with Mr. Ryan and i've taken into consideration as to what is the best way to proceed to actually get a final document the final cards on the table with van der Waart and this is something Mr. Ryan is able is willing to do and myself and i would also ask all it enters to come along with us to go to van der Waart and to get a last deal i'm i'm saying myself and Mr. Ryan because we've built a rapport with van der Waart we've we've all acted professionally and with the expertise of Paulette i think we could do the city some justice so i will be bringing in a resolution asking the council to allow us to do that we won't be making any decisions that's for the council to decide but it would give you the final proposal but this was just the plan what the just the first information that we could provide for you thank you thank you um i'll i have some other people to get quick aluminum board thank you mr. chairman uh just for a point of information for the for the council and the citizens that are living uh watching on television i called the county treasurer's office last week and i got some assessed values and some fair market values on on both of the van der Waart properties the first one is located at 14 36 south 15th the larger the two properties these are this is for 2005 department of revenue assessment uh the property was assessed at 574 500 dollars and the fair market value of that property was 710 70 dollars on the property at 14 40 south 16th street the 2005 assessment on that property was 144 200 dollars with a fair market value of 178 230 dollars so if the fair market value is 710 000 on that entire property i would hope that they would be willing to sharpen their pencil a little bit on the cost cost per acre that we're going to be negotiating so it's just a point of information on this these are the most current assessments and fair market values on those properties available thank you olem and recce thank you mr. chairman now if we purchase say five acres of the event of our parcels up there off from 16th street are we not obligated to pay some relocation costs here to help them relocate to other parts of the property on the right of an answer to that yes thank you actually the parcel of property we'd be looking at here is no it does not have any van der Waart buildings on it at this point the van der Waart buildings are located over here off of 16th street and 15th street the buildings which are down in what is referred to as the hole here they are in the process of planning demolition on those and filling up this hole the property i believe we should look at is the high ground up here and there are no structures on that property um president perot yes thank you mr. chairman i think attendant to our moving towards the bottom line for comparison uh i guess one of my interests involved uh what would be the relative use of that property because as soon as we we have very few cornfields left in the city of shabuagan this is a rather large property that has multiple use in the best and highest use had previously been determined not to be municipal so what i ask and i think all the council members in the media do have available an estimate of comparable value and also a tax pro forma in terms of the amount of tax we would expect to generate legitimately from that property the comparable was provided by paulette which interestingly was the imperial motel site uh those of you who have been around for a while recall that that was a very popular site uh back in the year 2000 uh at that time i think a very significant cry came up to say that uh it wouldn't be in our best interest to take that off of the tax roll uh interestingly enough now i believe that the tax value of that property and again i can't just speak to what it was when the imperial motel was on it but now it approximates some seven billion dollars uh that in line then the comparable that uh paulette the planning staff and the assessment staff provided was that it would be reasonable to assume that the uh state highway 42 and broad ray area four or five acres in that particular vicinity would likely support a development of some three million dollars a three million dollar development uh brings in about 100 000 dollars per year of taxes uh over a five-year period obviously that brings in close to a half a million dollars uh plus in terms of property tax revenue and i think as we move towards some conclusion in terms of the site that for me is significant because once you take something off of the property tax rolls it's gone forever uh and their performer takes it out to 50 years which the assessment department felt would be a reasonable life of property so i believe you have that roll up to consider in our future deliberations thank you thank you president for uh vice president sir thank you mr chairman then i would also ask that we give the same credence to 23rd street site because if indeed we do go to vandervaart or if we went to 23rd how much of a tax base would we lose if the county so chooses to sell it to a developer we need to do that same comparison to address um elder person born i've also did some checking because i wanted to know in terms of the assessment value the city assessor's office has um assessed 23rd street site at 940 900 but yet again vandervaart coming in at 574 500 that being at 17.33 acres and i said how can you have 3.6 assessed at almost a million and 17 here's a disadvantage for vandervaart they're zoned industrial whereas the county site is zoned for office and business use but indeed that's exactly what we'd be using the vandervaart site for so that's why you have that fluctuation so if you're going to do a fair comparison you should keep that in mind thank you vice president serda alderman montanar thank you chairman vander wheel i think alderman burg had good points about not taking property off tax rolls alderman serda had good points maybe the county will sell that and we'll get some tax revenue i would like if we could to ask the director of public works tom holton and city development paulette enders to give their opinion about the sites and see what they have to say because there are they are our experts i would like their opinion and their insight thank you alderman montanar alderman rackey thank you mr chairman i actually before i should have specified i would like paulette enders to address the relocation question i'd believe there's relocation costs regardless if they sell it to us or we go asking them to help them relocate because we're buying part of the property so paulette could address thanks we've dealt at the last time paulette would you be able to address that well she's walking up i just want to let you guys know we're going to need a motion eventually what we want to do with this hold it or advise council on what we want to do with this document paulette okay thank you um it depends sometimes you know and i think um all the person ryan had said that they wouldn't be relocating any buildings they're you know if they're potentially willing sellers you may not have any relocation costs typically what we do is you know we have discussions with the city attorney we ask him that question if we're going to move forward and purchasing a property sometimes you do sometimes you don't and i know that's um you know not a good answer at this time but we usually do consult with the city attorney on this one okay all men record do you want to hear from the city attorney or are we good okay and i would just you know at this point if you aren't relocating them out of the business if they're just parsley enough a portion of the property you know if it's not impacting their business at all is my guess you is you wouldn't have any thank you is there any other questions for paulette okay uh all in myer thank you mr chairman i guess this is kind of a comment um i'm i'm rather surprised that this property is still on the market we were told last year that you know people were lining up to buy this van der vart property and um uh alderman ryan has had private meetings with the company and apparently they are talking about other retailers buying some of this property do they have people lined up who else will be buying this property because i do have concerns about taking it off the tax rolls thank you all the man liar all the man ryan you're next thank you mr chairman uh number one i have not had any private meetings or dealings with uh with vander vart regarding this property and there has been not been any discussion about other retailers coming on board in this property uh as a business person who has bought and built retail locations it is my own personal observation that the back portion of property here the portion that is not the most visible from the main route of traffic is the least valuable portion of property the piece of property that is the most visible and the most accessible to the main traffic flow is the most expensive piece of property and therefore suitable for for a retail location regarding tax taking this off of the tax rolls if you take off this back portion of property if we take four or five acres off of the back portion of the property which is not highly visible and therefore not highly suitable for retail on the main drag here uh that taking that five acres off and and and developing that as a police department will make the front portions of this property that much more valuable to whoever builds them for retail for retail and therefore that much more valuable to the tax rolls and to the uh to the uh coffers of sheboygan put it that way thank you thank you chairman ryan vice president serda um i just addressing older person raki's concern i think it was stated in the communication from vander vart they're intense on their property but again that's something that we could actually negotiate and put in writing that if if there is that concern um mr harvey is um a man who deals with his business with integrity and um you'd be amazed at how far he would go um he's just he's just shown a lot of faith in the city um he understands that um this deal could be a win-win for all of us thank you vice president serda allumin graph thank you um all the presents serda had mentioned um being able to talk to um the vander vart people and so forth um what kind of timeframe were you looking at and um how quickly can you do this vice president serda thank you mr chairman um in order to do it legally i'd spoken to steven the clean earlier today i would have to bring in a resolution at the common council to have you the council authorize myself um older person ryan and paul it enters to meet with mike harvey and we can get that um back to the committee as whole soon as possible um willing that we have another meeting um so as i'm sure is whatever mr harvey schedule is like we could do it as soon as possible but i have to wait until the next common council to bring in that resolution wouldn't have to back to the committee of the whole it could go directly to council and council could discuss it there also okay i mean that would save you some time efficient thank you um i'll go to president burn thank you just a question of vice president serda is there a reason you wouldn't use the building use committee to enter into negotiations and as much as they're already particularly invested in the process and i think perhaps have a broader base of knowledge in terms of some of the issues that relate if you would to citing the police station construction as a whole rather than having a separate group of older persons do that uh do you want to comment on that vice president serda thank you mr chairman i'm not sidestepping um utilizing building use if anything i'm enhancing it i'm adding more older persons and making that decision in determination um and also just given the last practice um the way we did dealings with vandervaart in the past and um mr ryan is very business minded and again we built that report with vandervaart there's a trust factor that we've built there um again going back to the last dealings that we had with vandervaart i think they feel comfortable with us and i believe that we can give the city the best deal if you send us in thank you alderman susha thank you mr chair um i just wanted to make a comment on how lucky the city really is because it i don't think we have a bad site on the table i mean we've got city hall the 23rd street we've got vandervaart as options you know i've heard people kick around the sunny ridge idea the health and human service building in the old you know clinic location you know the charitain park was an option we have lots of options that we've looked at over the years and there are larger cities like new york that aren't as fortunate as shabuigan um i think wherever we wind up building people are going to be happy that it's finally built and i want to say that tonight for the first time i'm glad we finally had a conversation of what we are going to build because in my opinion what we are going to build is by far more important to me than where we're going to build it so i'm hoping that we can put this issue behind us soon time really is becoming of the essence because if we're scheduled to break ground in in january if we keep bringing in new sites um to be looked at i'm i'm a little bit concerned about breaking ground in a timely fashion so um whatever we do we need to keep the wheels moving forward and i hope that um we're able to do that so we can get into more discussions about what we're building because we've spent years now talking about where to build and i think we've spent a couple years too many talking about where when the focus for the majority of the time should have been on what are we going to build thank you thank you on the solution that's very important we need to stay in the timeline and i know it's the mayor's priority and i know it should be all of our priorities to stick with the timeline no matter no matter what sites we look at um i'm going to order alman reckey thank you mr chairman i'd like to call the question now there's no question we have a resolution in front of us we we need a motion on if we want to um i'll make a motion to file it only because we've already um done what i'd ask just that we would explore this topic and again i will be working on that resolution um that will go before the common council because again i don't believe we can do it here in the committee of the whole to allow us to negotiate so again i'm congratulating the council that um you allowed it to come here and to be explored so with that i move to file have a motion and a second to file under discussion on the graph under discussion um i would support the motion to file as as alman said and pointed out she needs to bring in something new but i'm just wondering with that new thing will she be including the um the building news committee and in her um pie as part of the negotiating team or at least being able to attend and so forth because we do have a lot of information and and several questions that we we need to have building use did all the you know they made the decisions and and presented that information to council one way or another so um and maybe if if you don't want the entire billy there are seven members to the building use committee and it includes um uh some a representative of the police department a citizen representative uh and um for older persons and i'm forgetting someone else um but um anyhow we we are a different group than what the the previous building news committee was so um when i and an architect we also have an architect uh on the building news committee so um it's very helpful i would be open to explore to allow um chief kirk to attend or an architect to attend as well with all due respect this is something maybe we should be uh you and all this sort of can discuss outside of outside of the community of the whole that's why thank you all in born thank you mr chairman um my my comments were the along the lines of uh alderman graff so i'll also address my concerns with alderman serda after the meeting thank you thank you uh mere press thank you mr chairman i earlier i received an email and i i see uh mr michael i'm here i believe he's been here for about two hours now i don't know if he still wants to address the committee of the whole or not i'd like to ask that if he does i'd ask that he's addressed us otherwise no need would you like to address us okay thank you and thank you mayor for for bringing that to my attention all the room on tomorrow uh thank you chairman vander wheel um my request to have um our uh city development and our uh and tom holton speak as long as we're about to vote on on on filing this thing could i ask that my request to have them speak be put off until the next agenda item number six sure which it will fit in there just fine also thank you alderman susha thank you mr chairman in regard to the discussion of who's going to be going into negotiations with vandervard if we move in that direction i really appreciate the resource or we recently received the handbook for wisconsin municipal officials and under the role of alderperson it clearly states individual elder persons are not empowered to act on behalf of the city and can only exercise power when a quorum of the council is present so i'm questioning whether we have the right to go into negotiations at all because we are not empowered to act on behalf of the city so if you can keep that in mind perhaps it's best to just send city officials thank you uh attorney mclean would you be able to address that for us as i understand that comment out of the league handbook that's talking about an individual alder person without any direction by the common council if the common council were to authorize an individual alderman or a group of alder persons or a staff or whatever to uh negotiate that's that's certainly uh acceptable uh the concern is an individual alderman on their own without any authority of the body going out and trying to negotiate buying a piece of land what this is saying is that that individual would have no authority to do that which means it wouldn't be binding on the city uh and in any event uh you wouldn't want to charge these individuals or or committee with authority to bind the city in any event you you would want them to negotiate the best they could the best deal they could and have that subject to approval by the by this body by the council uh so you wouldn't want to give any sort of group authority to bind the council to some final offer thank you attorney mclean alderman racky thank you mr chair steve if you would please what is the normal course of negotiations i mean this is involved yourself paul at enders tom holton i mean what is the normal negotiating team and we have our own experts in house to deal with just such things here i don't see why we should go away from that just for this one particular issue i think what we should do is follow the normal course of protocol that we've used all these years i what is the normal team well i don't know that there is a normal uh for instance the negotiations on with the county for the 23rd street site was the building use committee the staff also participated i participated uh as long as well as kim verhals purchasing agent uh paul at enders the chief police deputy chief uh but it was basically the the building use committee that negotiated with the county committee in that instance you know so i don't know that there is a what you would call a precedent or standard as to who negotiates what uh in any event that would be really up to the council i think you'd want to make that decision whether it's the building use committee a subset of that the subcommittee of the building use committee or uh if an older person proposes to have individual alderman as long as the council authorizes that that's that would be what what you would use in that circumstance uh you know i just had one other comment since i'm up here the question had come up about relocation costs or relocation expenses the vandervaart uh the issue of relocation really comes up in a in a taking context condemnation context uh where the statute requires under certain circumstances you've got to make business relocation payments or other relocation payments but in a voluntary transaction uh that's that's a negotiable item wouldn't be something that would be required by statute to pay relocation thank you old minister thank you mr or mr chairman um i did ask the same question what does the protocol use because i wish we would have used it last time with vandervaart but um and i guess i posed the question to if you look at the way the process that building use had gained their last information to formulate their resolution the county wasn't present william garing adam pain did they come to the meeting to building use no i think when steve mentioned the building use committee he meant the the three member building use committee that negotiated originally with the county this was just a a suggestion that was brought into the committee as to what the county was looking for i recall so we the building use committee did not do any negotiating because we were waiting for direction from what the county uh the council wanted this to do other than graph your light was blinking also did you have that was what i wanted to um okay we have the uh a motion on the florida file uh i'm gonna just do a unanimous vote all in favor signify by saying aye aye chair votes aye any opposed hearing none motion passes moving on uh first of all i'm gonna handle this kind of like the uh poll production safety committee if anybody wants to speak on these documents in the in the gallery uh raise your hand and we'll have you come up instead of having a public forum we're gonna do it that way but we ask three minute limit and you have respect for everybody in the room alderman mayor everybody and um also the person writing it will we'll get first dibs on speaking on it and uh so then our own number one oh four oh six oh seven by city clerk some in the communication from mary zara finitas asking that the council revisit the new police station location and make an offer to the county for the north 23rd street site uh mary zara finitas told me she wouldn't make it and i don't see her tonight so um alderman matrimore you wanted tom and paulette to speak on this on one of these they i would like to have their opinion about the sites i thought it would be done on number agenda item number four but it wasn't so let's put it on one of these because it all certainly refers to the police building sites all of these do all right um tom and paulette could you come up and speak your opinion on the sites on vandervaard north 23rd and city hall yes please thank you mr chairman my opinion has not changed since we did that report i still think city behind city hall is the best place for the station look at all the all the issues it's already off the tax roll uh with the with the vandervaard site i don't remember where we had that if we had that around four or five i don't recall for sure but there there's uh even with it buying five acres at a hundred and twenty five hundred seven five thousand that cuts the price down to i think half of what it was but i believe that the government facility should be downtown the central location we have the post office social security the library a lot of the banking uh my opinion hasn't changed all right thank you thank you um i agree with tom and then i'd also like to add that i mean that the two sites scored very close together with city hall and the 23rd street site and also that um what what will happen when the police department leaves you know let's say they go to the 23rd street site we also lose that police protection for city hall and there's a lot of services that i think they provide to us that you know when they're in another location a remote location we we lose those shared services amongst each other and um like tom had mentioned i also feel very strongly about keeping our government services downtown you know you think about all the police officers and you know the lieutenants and the chiefs that are downtown not only do they work downtown but they provide you know a lot of downtown activity you know what you'll see them walking on the streets before and after work shopping you know and taking advantage of all that downtown has to offer and they do think that it would be a loss thank you and and i agree with you if you look at city hall and and departments they work like an oil machine and if we take that away we might might disrupt the uh the machine thank you uh chief kurt could you come up and make comment i think the entire discussion tonight has centered around the budget how much do we have how much can we afford i think if you listen to john sabin ash tonight he says the cheapest construction will be slab on grade i think he has said that the city hall site will be more expensive and for that reason i would say that uh and i believe the mayor and i in that joint news release indicate that we are concerned about the city hall site so therefore slab on grade is at banner of art and or 23rd street i think we should look at both sites make a determination keeping in the timeline and then slab on grade construction at one of the two other sites not city hall thank you halloween groff you thank you mr jim and i was going to make a motion on um on that to bring it to the floor at our old and um and i was also going to include my communication and asset both those um documents be placed on file a motion a second to put our own number 1040607 and our c number 540506 on file no no no um item number six and seven not eleven oh i'm sorry because eleven we still have to act on all right i have a motion to file our own number 1040607 com number 280607 and our own number 1050607 under discussion well not i didn't say number eight just six and seven because i'm not sure of mr uh pilling is here or not oh he is and i didn't know if he wanted to speak because that would be his as you called it mr chairman um that is right if he wanted to so i apologize for the confusion um mr pilling would you like to speak thank you mr chairman my thing is not so much having the police station in one particular area i feel that it needs to be close to the 14th street corridor i think 23rd street being three quarters a mile from that uh is not good from the for the safety of the citizens throughout the city especially as the city expands southward and i don't understand how they possibly can operate economically when they're wasting all those extra miles with all the extra travel that's involved in that thank you thank you you know the discussion on those documents all in favor of filing signified by sanay chervil sigh motion uh any opposed motion passes uh our own number of 1050607 by the city clerks in communication from jeffrey bob stating his concerns regarding the location of new police station uh jeff would you like to uh come up um okay i'm sorry so i would make a motion that that um ro be accepted and placed on file also motion second uh placed ro on file jeff now if you could come up please thank you chairman town council um a couple things um i mentioned i remember hearing some talk about the interest in the land around vandavard as possible retention on a taxpayer role and that that land is suddenly important like we it might be beneficial for us in the future i remember the same argument when we first considered vandavard that it was too much land to buy and that we didn't want to want to run the risk of having that much property without being able to sell it so suddenly the idea of that has kind of changed i think um one of the things i wanted to mention about the north 23rd street site and it just seems to rarely come up and that is that the report by the emberg anerson uh corporation company and they're quoted as saying that there is still considerable evidence that the area surrounding the detention pond on the site shows considerable contamination primarily from petroleum based products and residues now i know we've had a number of studies and if i was looking at like say three studies and i saw two studies that said the land was good and i saw one study that said the land was bad i wouldn't look at the two good studies and say everything's okay i'd look at the bad one go why is it different okay and we have to ask ourselves why is that one different we have to clarify why the emberg anerson report states that don't ignore it and when it comes to the uh final price for the vandavard site i was looking at the the list as everybody else was today and i understand that the vandavard list wasn't calibrated for today's costs and our new evaluation of the size of the police station we want but just a quick list of the things that have to take a look at the vandavard site was statistically listed as higher portions and dollars in these categories civil engineering landscape design water quality assistance sanitary sewer assessment gas service connection electrical connection primary service telephone switch data wiring telephone devices fiber optics interior maintenance irrigation legal attorney fees cable tv hookup telecom and data systems video arrangements these are all things that for some reason vandavard was more expensive than 23rd in addition photocopying window blinds window blinds had zero at 23rd and yet for some reason it cost money at vandavard new office furniture old and new again more at vandavard why projection screen walk-in cooler all these things should not matter when it comes to when it's evaluated all these prices should be identical for both sites why are they different thank you thank you is there any other discussion on that document alderman brashel thank you mr chairman can i ask someone from the building use committee is the retention fund that's been talked about with contamination is that part of the parcel we're interested in there is one now i believe there's some petroleum impacted soils near the salt shed uh and i don't know what the extent of it is or what and yet i don't have any feel for an estimate ahada to remediate it but you didn't soil boring we did we did four test pits and found that it was filled we dug down to the top soil and we found just a few areas of brick asphalt concrete but no rubbish or anything like we'd found at the retention bond that was just plain garbage in there and where was that the tension it's way it's way on the east side of the property it's it's on the counterpart would be part it's not part of that 3.6 acre parcel or 3.9 acre parcel but but that's not to say it's not to say that there couldn't be still i don't think that all that all the garbage was removed there may be some on the east end of the proposed prop parcel the problem that the problem area that's talked about in the engberg moya report is technically not on the parcel we're interested in i can't there stands the possibility that it could be near by sure there's a possibility that there could be some on the on the east end of that property i don't believe we found that i recall found the western limit of it okay alderman hannah yes i just had a question i know on the vandervark property i think alderman rye mentioned that a phase one environment environmental study had been completed has that also been completed on the north 23rd street i believe there's a phase one on north 23rd street yeah for my understanding there was a phase one any other discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion signified by sanai triple it's i any opposed motion passes auto number 1070607 by the city clerk submitted communication from dimple atoms stating her frustrations regarding the possible sites for the police station and the fact that north 23rd street location is back on the table alderman graff i would move that the arrow will be accepted and placed on file second motion a second to place a document of file any discussion jena steiner would you like to take the podium dimple had a funeral tonight so she couldn't make it but um basically like jeff had said and like a lot of us had said you know that the north 23rd street site has been debated last year over and over lots and lots of people came forward emailed the mayor gave letters to the press gave letters to everybody in the council and this site was discussed by the building use committee a couple years back there was a completely different building use committee i was called by one of those members of the building use committee just yesterday and he said that on both sides of the salt shed it used to be a swamp if none of you have done any kind of um you know investigating and talking to these old members of the building use committee i don't think you're looking into this as thoroughly as you say you are and i think that the north 23rd street site might have contamination might not have contamination that needs to be looked into whether you say oh well maybe it's not in this section you don't know that for sure and you can't just say well it may not be there so we're not going to worry about it that's an extra cost to us taxpayers and we'd prefer that you not spend our money unwisely thank you thank you any other discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion signify my say hi hi triple it's i any opposed motion passes our number 1060607 by the city clerk submitting a communication from gail mattner asking that the common council vote to bring the location of the police department to referendum all in rocky thank you mr chair i make a motion that the document be accepted and placed on file motion a second to place document on file is there any discussion on that document hearing none all in favor of the motion signify my say hi triple it's i any opposed motion passes at number 11 rc number 540506 by finance you're making recommending referral of resolution number 270506 by all the person grov authorizing the purchasing agent to enter into contract for police facility and city hall architectural services to the community of the whole of the new council on the graph mr german um there's still a lot of discussion that's needed on this but i think we can do that in in council or at least keep it in council rather than keep it in the committee of the whole because this is part of this is for the um engineering fees for the police facility which right now i believe are um are at a much lower amount than than what this document has i i think i i want to say it's if rich is still here he would be able to tell me what oh yeah what's the what do we have approved right now for the architectural mr give hard if you could come up to the podium please thank you mr chairman um currently we have a 494 586 that's designated for the zerman contract there's any other questions quest president sir thank you mr chairman um just clarification on this this just basically allows us to pay for services that have been rendered it doesn't necessarily tie specifically to city hall document i would guess we would be the project cost estimate and the construction cost estimate but those are subject to change you know so but we we've got to get it out of this committee and vote on it so that we can prepare our budget which is starting very soon i have to make some type of recommendation we can send it from this committee without a recommendation but then council needs to act on it aluminum sushi thank you mr chairman i have a couple of questions for rich um how much so far have we paid the zimmerman design group i don't have those numbers documented in front of me but uh i recollect i mean there was part of the site study there was an extra site study for 22 500 i believe uh there were payments about 40 40 some thousand maybe all 43 000 previously made and i believe we have invoicing process for around 35 36 000 okay thank you so it's roughly a hundred thousand dollars worth of work so far if you include yes the latest invoice so that's pretty close to that okay thank you and then my next question is is um with their contract um are we contracting for a flat amount or is there a percentage based on what we build might need uh john seven ash to help me address that but i don't know how it's structured but uh i i know it's uh various components in there that is based on on you know the level of construction and i believe in some elements in there that it is a percentage of construction um i don't know if you want so what you're saying is the more money we spend on the police station the more money he's going to make uh that's normal for any uh one this in design any architect or engineer that's going to design the larger the project the larger the fees obviously you've got to design a bigger building um or oversee the construction of a larger building it's going to be more costly it's not only Zimmerman's but obviously you know they have to subcontract a lot of the technical areas also so there's the various factors in them okay thank you all the room on tomorrow thank you chairman van der wheel i would like to make a motion to move this rc to council with no recommendation we may end up dividing the sites if it goes to 23rd or van der vart and there's been some chatter about moving a bit more slowly on the city hall of innovation depending upon lots of things okay a motion a second any discussion on the motion did you same motion um mr chairman uh because i know there is still some debate and discussion as far as what the project cost estimate is going to be in the construction cost and the architectural fee total and as well as if we're doing the police facility and city hall together all right thank you any other discussion on the motion all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye sure both side any opposed motion passes motion second adjourn all in favor signify by saying aye we're adjourned