 Hello and welcome to O.E.G. Voices. O.E.G. Voices. O.E.G. Voices. A new podcast bringing to you the voices and ideas of open educators from around the world. O.E.G. Voices is produced by Open Education Global, a member-based, non-profit organization supporting the development and use of Open Education Globally. Learn more about us at oe-global.org. There's much to take in at a global level. We hope to bring you closer to how Open Education is working by hearing the stories of practitioners told in their own voices. Each episode introduces you to a global open educator and we invite you to later engage in conversation with them in our O.E.G. Connect community. I'm your host today, Alan Levine from O.E.Global, and I'm joined today by Christina Ishmael, who is also new to O.E.Global. So how are you doing today, Christina? I'm doing really well. How are you, Alan? I'm pretty good. So you are kind of like our beta tester here and we're excited that you're willing to do this. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work in open education right now? Yeah, I am all of in week two working with O.E.Global as the new director of primary and secondary education. So for all of our K-12 folks around the world and that have been working with open education and open educational resources, I will now get to help bring folks to our membership organization and kind of build the community more globally. My work over the past four years has been really U.S. specific, where I led the open project at the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Ed Tech and then I was a senior program manager at New America where I continued to support all of this type of work for the past three years out of Washington DC. Along with this new position I also moved across the country and so now I'm on the West Coast of the U.S. in Portland, Oregon and I'm getting to know the city here as well as practicing faith and social distancing while we are experiencing a pandemic. So but also recognizing the need for OER and more open educational practices when it comes to kind of what we are facing right now across the, well around the world for that matter, but across the U.S. and around the world in thinking about how we're going to be able to meet the needs of our youngest learners or K-12 learners or even our pre-K, which are our three and four year olds and some of our most vulnerable populations, how we're going to meet their needs if we have to continue doing things via distance learning. That's fantastic. And so can you remember what or who it was that was like your your entree to open education? Yeah. So I used to work at the state level. I was at the Nebraska Department of Education where I was the digital learning specialist for the entire state. So I led all of our ed tech efforts, but I was also the school library liaison. So I advocated for school librarians and had the chance to really dig into copyright, creative comments, fair use, all of that. And so it was really kind of brought to my attention through school librarians and in particular some folks that were at the university level in Nebraska who helped me understand all of this. And then I started to lead a lot of professional development across the state on this and then joined and kind of plugged into the community and learned from a lot of our higher ed folks who have helped show show me the way. And then and then kind of translate that into K12 practices. And so by 2015, when the US Department of Education launched Go Open, the project that I ended up leading, I was talking with Andrew Marcenick, who was my predecessor at the department, as well as Joseph South, who was the director whenever I was at the department. And then Richard Colada, who was the previous director, and they all know David Wiley. And so the community is small sometimes. And so all of them have played a huge role in the learning process, as well as kind of plugging into the community and then being able to grow it from there. Excellent. And we'll have a chance to talk about your new work, but maybe do you want to talk about some of your exciting work at New America? So after leading the work at the US Department of Education, we were able to grow the number of school districts that were using OER from 40 districts. When I first joined, and then by the end of my year there, we had gone to over 110 districts. And then we also had states that signed on to help lead this work. And so we had 20 official states that were leading the work. And so after I left there, New America said, we've got an OER portfolio and we're doing work here. So come work with us. And New America is a civic enterprise and a think tank. And I can honestly say I never thought that I would work in a think tank, because I am a former classroom teacher and will always consider myself an educator. But here I was working on education policy and leading some really great work, building awareness on OER across the US and continuing to kind of make those connections where I spent a lot of my time doing email introductions and leading phone calls with folks that were interested in OER and just developing awareness as well as trying to build that network of schools that could then lean on each other and collaborate to share resources and take advantage of the fact that some larger districts might have a full team that could work on this while smaller districts may not and then they could share and work together on this. And so then we talked about reallocating funds that would normally be spent on textbooks and proprietary instructional materials to go back into the schools and compensating teachers for the time and the effort that it takes to curate and create resources and changing policy. And that comes from the district level, changing copyright to CC licensing, as well as state level policy, which requires the introduction of OER into the definition of instructional materials, talking more about open educational practices and what that might mean so that we give students more choice in their learning. And the Hewlett Foundation has obviously led a lot of this work on their OER portfolio, but their other portfolio within the education kind of division is around deeper learning. And there are principles around deeper learning where we give students agency and allow them to really kind of unpack and get a little meta about their learning. And so we've also been trying to have those conversations and I think that those are very like uniquely tied to one another. The materials that we use in a classroom can help us get to a deeper learning so that we can create amazing citizens. And so what that might look like. And I've just had the chance to kind of be the face, I guess, the hair used to be the hair of a lot of this work. And I pinch myself sometimes at some of the opportunities that I've had to be in front of folks and like key decision makers around the US, but also globally. And I'm excited about this new position to continue that international work. So what are some of the things that it takes to be successful in moving systems and bringing us to K-12? Because I mean, to me, I think about like the range of things you have to deal with going across from pre-K to high school level is so much more territory to cover than higher education. Yeah. So I think it's interesting when I think about like the overall system, I think about change management a lot. We're also having this conversation when it comes to what the fall will look like for a lot of schools right now. Moving to more of a blended learning model or full distance learning where they're using different online platforms to deliver content for teaching and learning. And the same goes for OER. When it comes to choosing instructional materials, we are pretty ingrained in tradition. And the way that it is always kind of unfolded in a school district, large, medium size or small is that we call the publishing companies and they send us their pretty new packages and their pretty new materials with all the bells and whistles. And sometimes there is a team of teachers or a team that will go through it and kind of evaluate the content and whether it is aligned to standards or certain learning objectives and then make a decision based off of that. That's not always the case, but that is certainly what we see a lot of here in the US. And so I think getting to those folks that make those decisions to let them know that there are options when it comes to instructional materials and they don't have to go through that traditional process is really key. And so that's like one entry point for a lot of folks right now because of new budget cuts that are going to happen. I think we're going to see an increase in people that are interested in OER because they don't have as much money and they still need new materials. And so these are all kind of ways that we've been able to work with the system and thinking about materials that we would use across the system. And then just changing hearts and minds about the use of materials themselves. Right now, we are experiencing unrest in the US when it comes to race and rightfully so. It's time, but this is not exclusive to the US by any means when we talk about colonization and colonialism and whatever else may be happening in other countries. So we also need to evaluate the materials that we're using to make sure that they're inclusive and representative of our students and that it's not a single narrative that we are presenting to students, which is traditionally the case as well. Great. And so what do you see as some of the challenges, opportunities and trying to look at this at a global level? And where in the world do you see interesting things going on in K-12? That's a great question. That is part of my work in joining OER Global is to do a scan and trying to figure out some countries that are doing this work and doing it well, or that are just getting started in the work and how we can provide support for them. So to answer that question, I don't know yet. However, I am excited about the 193 countries that are part of UNESCO and with the UNESCO OER recommendation and being able to tap into ministries of education in those specific countries that may have a national curriculum, which is not something that we're familiar with here in the US, but that have a national curriculum set by the Ministry of Education that if they chose to go with something that's openly licensed and that all of their schools were using it, that would be fantastic. And that we could write a case study on that and then amplify that story to share with others. And I think that that is certainly a lesson that could be brought back to the US as well. Right. And then certainly I wonder too about this dynamic about we, you've already kind of cited the kind of the needs now for OER, whether it's budgets or access to materials. At the same time, you know, teachers and systems are facing this like, we don't know what school is going to look like in a couple months. And so it's so much to balance. And so I kind of wonder about like, how do we make this continue to make this case for OER when people are still trying to figure out just what the heck is going on and how am I going to deal with it? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I guess I think of baby steps whenever getting started in this work in general for individual teachers or even an entire district that would sign on to go open, it was to replace one textbook in one grade level and one content area. So it was not throwing all the textbooks out completely, but it was starting in grade six science, for example, and then trying to build up from there. And so for individual teachers, I always encourage them to start with one unit. So I previously taught kindergarten and grade two, as well what I was also an English language teacher, where I worked with grades one through six, so always an early childhood and elementary. And when I taught grade two, I would think about the geometry unit where we focused on fractions. And so I spent a lot of time looking online for additional resources because I knew that the textbook was never sufficient. And so especially because the majority of my students were English learners. And it was hard for them. And so how could we do more graphics and more visual representation of this concept? So I would go out and find these things. And so if I can help point educators to OER, like current resources that exist, instead of having them go to Pinterest or teachers pay teachers or other platforms that have resources that may not be as good, then that is one kind of way that we that we can certainly kind of grow this work. And so it really starts with like little steps to make big change. I have to say in second grade, I loved fractions. And I do not know where Mrs. Forman got her material. She didn't have the internet. But you know, what makes me like feel positive about that is always that, you know, I just remember, especially my elementary teachers as being so inventive and and they they create an environment I loved going to school. And so I I really hope that that can be, you know, an experience that that more people have. I hope so. I love that you remember your second grade teacher's name, first of all. But yeah, we and and honestly, for folks that don't have access to a lot of materials, we're pretty resourceful. And that's not exclusive to the US by any means. But I feel like educators are pretty resourceful when it comes to inventing things or, you know, digging out certain like trash or recyclable things to be able to use that to help teach a concept. It all works. I think you have to be resourceful to also move across the country in a pandemic. So is there is there sort of like an illustrative story from that experience that might be a metaphor for your new work? I put you on the spot. Right, right. Man, no, but I think it goes back to like taking it day by day and the small steps. So I knew that there were certain kind of points that I wanted to be at by at the by the end of the day. And so I would just keep driving until I reached that. And it was largely because I really wanted to see friends as I drove across the country, even again, during a pandemic and being very safe and responsible whenever I would get to see folks. But that is what kind of motivated me. And so I think it was just taking it day by day. And that's really what it, especially now, not knowing what the the fall or the future will hold for us right now in in K-12, that we're just going to have to take it day by day and be really gracious with ourselves, but with others as well. Well, I love your enthusiasm, motivation, and it's going to be great to have you as a part of OE Global and and also for being our beta test for doing the OE Global Voices podcast. And so thank you for listening to this episode of OEG Voices from Open Education Global. And so ideally, you will hear here as we close out some open licensed music. And we're going to be asking for people actually to suggest music. So coming soon, there'll be a place where we get to thank someone for suggesting a particular track. And we will, of course, cite the source and license for this. So and you'll eventually be able to find this episode on a new site we're building at Voices.OEGlobal.org. And we also want to pair it with having follow up discussions because we want the podcast to kind of have an afterlife for people to have questions of Christina and her work in K-12. And that will live at OEG Connect, connect.OEGlobal.org. And so if you'd like to share your work in open education or even suggest a future guest, please let us know. And we think that the more voices we have, the better. Thank you, Christina. Thank you.