 Let me give a quick introduction to the panel and what this is about. This is really talking to the bigger picture on how society will change and open up and what opportunities and challenges lie in this area. Panelists will answer questions from their specific points of view, as managers of large tech organizations, successful open hardware makers and representatives of the community. So thank you very much. I don't know if we can get to the panel in a moment, but by the way, I was wondering what do you think about the music in between? Like do you hear it? Do you like it? Yeah? Thumbs up? Show me thumbs up. Yeah? And who thumbs down? Anyone thumbs down? Really? Seriously? So please talk to me later, William. Yeah? Actually, I wanted to have this music for years. It's Fibucci, yeah? And you can check it out. So later it's a lot related to India, and I like the Indian drum rhythms, so I'm very happy we have it. And yeah, so always related to tech and mathematics, I really like these connections to music, and we also have a lot of connections here in this panel. So thank you for joining the panel to the panelists, and I would like to introduce the panelists. Even some have already been introduced, so the panel is titled Business, Government, Science, What Opportunities Does Open Bring to Society? We really wanted to keep it broad as a topic because there are a lot of different perspectives here in the panel. So next to me is Bunny Huang. Bunny is known for the Xbox originally, but that's actually quite a few years ago already, and we've heard a talk from you today. So you are also a mentor for our community here in First Asia. We always like read you somewhere and try to get some feedback on our projects, so we really appreciate your feedback and the projects that you did, and we heard already a little bit from you. So thank you very much. Then actually I should have done that first, introduce actually Hong-Fuk, because Hong-Fuk is the only lady on the panel. It's not that we are not trying, but we need more ladies in tech, and I'm happy as well. Just like Harish said today that we have more and more ladies joining, but Hong-Fuk, you also have some feedback on this panel because you're not just working with the community here in First Asia, but you also work with companies. For example, last year, there were some engagements here with Daimler, Jonas is here as well, but also with Zalando and other companies that you're working with. So you also have different perspectives to what open means to different players. So thank you very much for joining as well. I think we can also give a round of applause, and also for Bunny, Bunny is also doing good work. Amazing. Thank you very much. And then we have Shankar V. Selva-Durai. I'm always getting Indian names wrong, but you told me before, we talked before, so I hope I got it right. And Shankar is the Vice President and CEO of Cloud and Cognitive Software of IBM. And you lead the technical organization that helps clients across Asia Pacific to explore and co-create cloud-based solutions that leverage data, analytics and AI capabilities to deliver better decisions and outcomes. So I noted it down here for me. So while leading teams varying in size from six to over a thousand, I think very different kind of style, you have to work with different teams. And you did this in North America, Europe and Asia, so a global citizen. You also told me that you were born originally in Malaysia, but then grew up in the UK. And then almost you have a very long story, so I think you have the chance to tell us about this a little bit later, but you also hold a Bachelor of Science and a Master of Business Administration. So even here, you also combine different roles. Thank you very much for joining. And we have Dr. Graham Williams here. Master of Data Science at Microsoft. And Graham has been an open-source developer since the 1980s, with early contributions to Emacs, Tech, Debian also. So I guess you know Martin, yeah, and R. And you are the developer of various machine learning toolkits. He remains a strong advocate for open-source and is a practitioner, researcher and educator in AI. And his current role with Microsoft, he leads a team of data scientists working with business to implement machine learning solutions and to drive open-source product development. And you are also an adjunct professor at the UC in Canberra, Australia, and have written many books on the AI topic. So thank you very much for joining. And finally, Carsten Heitzler. So probably many know you, like many who have been to the first Asia summit before, but also to other events. We can meet you at many events. And you worked in Linux and open-source industries for 20 years, more than 20 years. But you also started originally actually as a community contributor to the Enlightenment Desktop and Window Manager project. And you have written lots of graphics-related code for X11. And that's 20 years of programming mostly in C and assembly on top of Linux, shipping in, now listen, 100 million devices around the globe. That's something. So big round of applause. So we see already that we have different perspectives. And for me, the perspective was in 2009, President Obama said that openness prevails. So I don't know if anyone was here in 2009 and remembers how the time was. It was all about openness. There was the Freedom of Information Act at that time. And it was the time when First Asia was founded. So it just fitted perfectly into that time. And a lot of politicians were talking about this. And for us, as an open-tech community, it was just natural. It was just logic that we should have open-source software, but also like information about how the government is doing, about open science and so on. Things should be accessible. And not just out of a theory, because actually out of a collaboration model. We just heard the talk, how in Debian, it's not mainly only a software project, it's like a global community. You have connections everywhere, you have friends everywhere. So this is very natural for us. And the question now is like, what does this panel have, like, how is the background of this panel? So openness for us is not just an idea, it is the basis for collaboration in the false community. For example, imagine we all have to sign NDAs. We all have to sign copyright agreements. Would we have ever worked together? Maybe many wouldn't have. It would just be too complicated and it would cause a lot of overhead. So it really enables us to collaborate. So in this panel now, I have a few questions. And I would like to get insights into how this idea of openness changes your daily work and changes the work in your organization, or in your community, or in your life. How it changes your development, your communications, tools and technologies, and how you work together. So I think we have the biggest contrast here, right next to us. Bunny comes from a very open model, then also going into business areas. I saw some of your projects on crowd supply. And we have another area here, which is more from a corporate perspective. And I really don't know who to start with first. But as you haven't had the chance to say anything today, I would like to give Shankar here the opportunity to say something first. So about openness in IBM. I think that microphone should work. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Is it working? Yeah. Can we switch on the other mic? Yeah. No. No, no. Is it working? Okay. Sorry about that. That's all right. You guys can hear me? Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. Before I start, I just wanted to do a quick poll here. Can you put up your hands? How many of you are aware of IBM's involvement in open source? Okay. So 50%. Okay. That's pretty good. I was expecting lower than that. Some people may be thinking that I'm here representing IBM because we recently announced the acquisition rate had. That's a relationship. But actually, I just want to put in context, right? So IBM has been involved in open source way, way before it was cool or lots of people were talking about it. So this was probably 20 years, more than 20 years ago. In the 90s when we helped establish the Apache Foundation and then the Eclipse Foundation and then the Linux Foundation, right? And when we did that, right, how we supported the communities and projects was that, first we either committed money to it. For example, in Linux, we invested $1 billion to the Linux Foundation. We committed, make significant code contributions. For example, the Apache HTTP server, the Eclipse Java IDE framework, and more recently the high-pledged fabric, right? We also dedicated resources to this as well, right? For example, technical resources, engineers, developers to contribute code on a sustained basis as well as lead projects, some of these projects, right? And we also provide legal help for these communities in terms of writing those licenses as well as supporting them in marketing activities, right? Because we've got to create the grantors around open source and some of these projects, right? One interesting we also do is that we also arbitrate differences within the community. A good example would be Node.js, right? There's a point in time where the folks in Node.js in the community had differences of opinion and they were about to fork, right? And they came to IBM and we helped arbitrate so that it came back together, right? So those are some of the things that we've been doing, right? And in the last five years, we've actually ramped up further our investment commitment to open source, right? And this is from enabling enterprise capability in open source all the way from Cloud Foundry to Docker, Cloud Data Computing Foundation, Kubernetes, TensorFlow Node, I mean hundreds of projects, right? But from a monthly perspective, right, we're looking for a month, right? We are contributing to about 400 projects in the open source community at any point in time. So that's a real brief around IBM, right? So I just want to touch a little bit about, you know, how does IBM, you know, why is this important to IBM, right? But before that, let me put it in context, right? What's happening in the industry today is that lots of, and I'm speaking from enterprise perspective because that's where IBM is focused on, okay? And if you look at that right, enterprises today are, most of them are going through some sort of digital transformation, right? And that digital transformation is expected to drive innovation and growth. But the innovation and growth doesn't start with the CXOs or the guys at the top, right? It fundamentally starts with the developers, the coders, data scientists, basically the folks who are here, when you guys, you guys are the ones who are fundamentally driving that innovation and growth. In fact, in recent research, right, the study says that 95% of IT implementation today are influenced by developers like yourself, right? And half of that are actually making buying decisions. So, you know, out of that whole lot of developers, 50% are contributing to open source, whether in their individual capacity or part of a company, right? So now you know, right? Developers contributing to open source driving innovation. So that's kind of intuitive, right? Innovation power drives open source is kind of intuitive. The concept that all of us together are smarter than any one of us, right, makes sense. And you cannot drive that pace of innovation without a collaborative development effort. But what is not intuitive or not obvious is the economic benefits of open source, right? And let me put that, let me illustrate to you guys, right, for example, right, in IBM, and I'm bringing IBM Context here, you've got IBM engineers participating in these open source projects, right? And they take that, we go back to our products and put it into our products, and then we enhance it or incorporate enterprise capabilities, scalability, availability, reliability, all those things that enterprise need, right? Then we take that product and then sell it, right, and we make profit, right? We make profit, sell it to the customers, the customers come back and tell us feedback, give us feedback, or additional requirements. That's where the reinvestment happens. The same engineers go back into the community and now make the project even better and in turn make the product better, right? And that drives even more profit, okay? It creates a whole new market because we create a new product. We've got creating more of a shareholder value, right? And that cycle again, right, continues to expand and accelerate. So that's the power of innovation and in turn the economic benefits of open source. And in IBM, what we're doing is that open source technology is fundamental to everything that we're doing from a strategic perspective, whether it's cloud, data, AI, even quantum computing, right? What does that mean? It means that open source, open data, open standards, and an architecture that is open by design. So if you take a look at our cloud platform, we're incorporating, we're trying to drive commonality of platforms across private and public cloud, whether it's our cloud or anybody else's cloud, leveraging containers and Kubernetes. And you heard my colleague earlier on, Rahul, talk about how we're leveraging open source and AI as well. In blockchain, we're driving the leveraging, the hyperlegia fabric, right? Even in emerging technology like quantum computing, we have opened up the quantum computing toolkits like QuizKit to the public, right? And this is, you know, I think it's critical because even in emerging technology, we strongly believe that the open approach is much better than a proprietary approach, right? So, you know, that's sort of a brief on, you know, why from an IBM perspective, right? I just want to add a couple of more points here, right? So you made me thinking, is this just a vendor play? No, it's not just a vendor play. It's not just a community play also. It is now, I think, it's an enterprise play because enterprises now, large organizations, not just technology providers, are invested in open source because they are realizing the reward and the benefits and reaping the benefits of open source innovation, right? You look at AT&T, Morgan Stanley, all these organizations, even the space program, right? You look at NASA, they've opened up the code for the mass robo program to spur innovation from the 24 million developers that we have across the world, right? So and the enterprises are not just doing for the innovation, right? They're also trying to reduce vendor lock-in. They're trying to reduce vendor lock-in, increase interoperability, portability, as well as, and I think fundamental to this is they have access to this mass pool of developers in the open source environment who are driving innovation for them. So that's a little brief around how, from an enterprise perspective, from a company like IBM perspective, how open source is benefiting us. Okay, thank you very much. It was kind of a good circle from a corporate perspective, but I also remember years, maybe not so much IBM, but other companies that had a different opinion about open source, and Graham is smiling already. And yeah, and like I also know your story, right? I mean, we heard about it like that you have been a contributor for many years to free open source software. So for you personally, this is also a very personal story because today you're working for Microsoft, and it would be very interesting to hear a bit of your story, how things have changed over time, and how you ended up actually working for Microsoft today and being convinced that this is a good thing, right? Because you're really were in the freeze of a community or are a member of the community, and yeah, maybe you could share your personal story. Thank you, thank you, Maria. So I do find myself in a company today that I spent most of my life fighting against. Indeed, to the extent that my children grew up with no Microsoft in the household at all. We were a completely open source family, if you like. And I date my involvement in the open source community back to the 1980s. Back in the Australian National University in those days, Andrew Trigel was there with us, Paul McCarras, Martin Schwenke, Martin Schwenke and I, and Martin is in IBM. Martin Schwenke and I developed one of the first packaging tools for Emacs, and given that we have precedence of a poll, how many Emacs users are in the audience? Oh, so few. How many Vi users? How many Vi users? Hey, wrong conference. How many VS Code users? Wow, that's a good number too. How many VS Code server users? Does anyone know VS Code server? So check VS Code server, just recently browser based. All of them are open source tools. So I started off, I stuck with Emacs, Emacs can do everything that Vi can do and more. But still alive. And still today, use Emacs and purely open source stack, I've been involved in the LaTeX community as well, setting up CTAN, CTAN the precursor of CRAN for R, C-PAN for Pearl and so on. So I've spent 30 or more years very much in the open source community. And I brought open source to the Australian government's data science capabilities 12 years ago. And it's a fairly telling story. Actually, before I tell that story, let me tell a story from the 90s when I was working with our Department of Health, which really underlined for me why open source is so important. We were developing AI based systems. My day job is a machine learning researcher, AI researcher. We built AI machine learning based tools for health in Australia, Department of Health in the 1990s. We used a tremendous, a really advanced tool at that time. It was IBM's intelligent miner. Really nice tool for doing data science, data mining and so on. We implemented a system for the Australian healthcare to identify fraudulent behaviour amongst medical practitioners and amongst patients. We implemented that system, deployed it. Fortunately, and we had really good relationships with IBM, I should say. Unfortunately, as with many products and any vendor, they decided that that product was end of life. Maybe it was before its time. It was end of life and we had spent in the department millions of dollars investing in that product. And we came to a dead end. Now we could use the product, but we couldn't develop further on it. We couldn't get into the source and maintain it and so on. So we were stuck with end of life. And that was a very costly experience for us. And that really reinforced for me the importance of open source. And another thing I kind of probably want to get out of my system is why do we have F at the beginning of FOSS and the question was raised earlier on today. I think a lot of you in the audience were probably sharing with me that actually F is not free as in free beer. It's F as in freedom. And that's the most important thing for me about why open source is so important. It's the freedom that it gives me and my teams and developers to innovate and to use that software in ways that we want to use it. Now of course, and so I was going to tell the story. 12, 15 years ago I joined the Australian government from research organisation Australia and they wanted me to build their analytics team. They had 150 data analysts. I was purely open source. They had already gone through the procurement process. They acquired SAS. SAS, what's called minor, something minor, enterprise minor. And they asked us to come in. I set up a team, mostly open source people from researchers. And they sat us in front of this commercial software and asked us to stop using the open source software that could already do more than what this closed source software could do and just use this commercial product. And it took me three years to build infrastructure. The first open source stack of using Debian across Australia. We set up a network of servers running Debian and an open source stack to do data science and took me three years. And a lot of that three years were spent fighting the IT department, if you like. And the fight with IT was around, hey, we've got a standard operating environment. It's Microsoft. Microsoft is telling us open source software is really, really dangerous. This was the Halloween times. This was the Microsoft CEO telling open source people how bad we are. We're communists. We are against American society. That's probably exaggerating it a bit or maybe not. But it was a really challenging time to convince our IT departments that actually open source software is so much better and more secure. We can look at it. We can innovate with it. We can change it. We have the freedom to do what we want to do with this software. And that's been my mantra forever, really, that I want the freedom to do with the software what I want to do to innovate. So three years ago, I was finishing up my time with the Australian government. And Microsoft came knocking on the door. And hey, this is ludicrous. Publicly, I'm very anti-Microsoft. But they were knocking on the door and spent some time convincing me that Microsoft today is a very different company. And I'm still there after three years, which still tells me that, okay, I'm convinced that there's a massive cultural change happening. And to me, I think open source will win always in the end. Microsoft is a very big open source company today. Now, of course, I'm from Microsoft, I'm paid by Microsoft, I'm going to say that. But I stay with Microsoft because I truly see that transformation happening. Microsoft wouldn't buy, wouldn't purchase GitHub if it wasn't in that transformation. Microsoft has always been a developer focused company. It kind of wants to be the platform for developers. And previously, it wanted to be the platform for developers and make the developers only use whatever they produce. It was a closed platform, it was their platform. It was Microsoft and nothing but Microsoft. Under our new executives, that culture has changed dramatically. It still wants to be the platform of choice for developers. And everything we're doing now is to support developers. How do we support any developers, whatever platform they're developing on? The other side of it, of course, is purely commercial. You look at the cloud. What's a major percentage of the operating system running on the cloud is open source, is Linux. A major percentage of that is Ubuntu. Debian has a strong presence, of course, Red Hat and Fedora also have strong presence in the cloud. People are saying, we want to use Linux on the cloud as well as Windows. And hence, from a commercial point of view, from an Azure and a cloud point of view, we make money out of Linux on the cloud as well as Windows on the cloud. And that's kind of the platform future for Microsoft. I have a team of data scientists, machine learning, AI people, part of a team worldwide, there's 60 data scientists in our group. All of our work, all of my work is open source. We work with customers. We use R and Python, deep learning algorithms, my favorite and research areas around ensembles and decision trees. All using open source and only open source software working for the enterprise customers. Everything that we learn, most importantly for me, we feed back into the community. So all of the work that we do with our customers, not the intellectual property that relates to the competitive advantage of the company, but the intellectual property that relates to the technology that we're using to develop that intellectual property for the company. So that algorithmic development we publish in GitHub in open source. We have recommendation toolkits that we publish, computer vision toolkits, a large collection of open source software to support the data scientists. But more than that, we're also trying to see how do we empower everyone to do AI and machine learning. Everyone's talking about AI machine learning at the moment. I've been in the community for 40 years. This is the fourth surge of interest in AI machine learning. But how do we get that technology into lots of people's hands? We do that by packaging and sharing things. And as I mentioned, one of my first ever open source projects was how to package packages for Emacs. I've been involved with CTAN, Comprehensive Tech Archive, packaging packages for LaTeX, packaging packages for R, packaging packages for Debian and so on. I wrote a utility to support the administration of packages in Debian and Ubuntu as well. So I've always been about how do we package up things to get that out there as easily as possible to anybody. And to that extent, I need to wind up. But to that extent, I might just advertise. Saturday I'm talking about something called mlhub.ai. Feel free to visit it. It's a concept of how do we package up and share all that we learn as data scientists back into the community and in five minutes demonstrate lots of different technology. So I invite you to come to that talk and talk to me more outside of that. But let me just finish to say, open source, I think, has one visual studio code is an open source project widely used by the developer community. And the most interesting thing I see is Emacs and Viya users going to VS Code and telling them I'm still Emacs. But they go to VS Code and say, this is the best IDE that is out there. It's open source. And it's got commercial development behind it. A little bit of a plug there. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. There were a lot of projects that are open source. It's really exciting. I got the question before when Microsoft will release GitHub as open source. Do you know about it? I mean, yes or no, it's sufficient. I have no internal knowledge. I've asked the question myself, too. It's a really interesting plus many other products within Microsoft. There is a pipeline of discussion and products that are coming out open source. OK. Thank you very much. One word I have heard a lot from you was change. And I think I would like to have a talk about this because you are working with companies. And companies are not just like that they release code as open source, but it also changes the way companies work. I know that inner source is a big topic here. So what do you observe? What is changing inside companies when they use open source products and collaborate with the open source community? How is that going? And maybe there are also some challenges. What's your view on that? Before I answer that question, I sometimes use Visual Studio code. I'm not a user. So the reason I mentioned is because I think that the value of force for me is more about collaboration. And it really unites us together. No matter what background or status you are, which level now we are independent from community, from cooperation, from enterprise. It was a life-changing experience for me. I wasn't trained as an engineer. But today, I don't feel a big gap between a normal person like me and an engineer. When you are inside the open source community, people are really collaborative. And the patients show you what to do. So last week, I also wrote a script about how to remove WK and different functions in Expressions. So I feel that I also can be a developer. I'm interested in technology. And we don't look at the people based on their status anymore. So you are here, we're all here together. When you want to, I'm sure that if you want to approach Senka or William, maybe you don't meet them in a daily basis. But because of force, everyone here is equal. We are together. We can do things together. And Mario mentioned that, OK, I'm a female. I should be introduced first. I don't care so much. I just want to be the same as anyone else here. We try to be inclusive, method of community inclusive. And so back to the question, what I see in companies a few years back, we focus a lot on the community. So when you go into the forced Asia event, you see a lot of developers. But the situation is also changing. So companies now, so in some community, they have the feeling that, OK, I only want to be close to our developer and company. They always do the bad thing. But it's actually not the case right now. As Dr. Rahams already mentioned, IBM, Microsoft, they contribute a lot to open source. 50% of the audience learn about open source at IBM. How about the other 50%? The reason why? They did not talk about it so much openly in the past year. But more and more companies started to focus to do more outreach. They want to be connected with the community. And there is a term Mario mentioned, inner source. So what is inner source? Inner source is applied the concept of open source, how people develop in the open inside company. Because they believe that when people in different departments and divisions in the company work together, they can become more efficient. And I work with Salando now in Germany. This is a big e-commerce platform in Europe, similar to Amazon, if you know of, but focused on fashion. And the company actually released a lot of open source. What I learned from them is that sometimes cooperation or enterprise, even though they cared about open source, they want to contribute to community. There's a lot of legal compliance issue that you need to go through, so that delays the entire process. So the trend that I'm seeing right now is that companies work together with the developer community to work on solutions to make things easier for the corporate to contribute to open source. There are also a lot of automatic toolings that allow you that guiding, do all the compliance check, so that have your internal developers or department easily release some software to open source. And also, like Dr. Ramon only mentioned a lot, there's so many ways, so many software that these big companies release online. And they really open not only to push out there for you to use, try to offer the solution, but they really want feedback from the community, help them to improve the solution and work together. So not only you offer something to us, the community, but we will also work on tooling and solution that help you to make things easier for the community. So that's what I see. The biggest value is enforcing to bring people together without borders, not only physically, but in terms of background, in terms of position or level. And then I also want to mention here that I have like two people here in the panel that I know for a long time, and I really admire Kastan and Benny. So I read about their work online, so they all have their own Wikipedia page, which is really amazing. But so I just feel that a lot to share, and we can always be in the same page. So I don't see the distance in the people who are doing amazing things. And the normal person like me, so I really appreciate what force can bring us together and give us an opportunity to be connected. I think that Benny and Kastan has more to share. Okay, my turn. Since everyone here gets to ask questions. So, okay, I work at ARM these days. One of the reasons I work here is, or there, so actually here, is that I have spent 10 seconds. I've spent a lot of my life by now doing open source. It was accidental. I never joined it because I wanted to. I barely knew what it was. I wrote a window manager for me. I really didn't care if anyone used it. I thought it was cool. Then someone saw the screenshots and said, we want it. I went, okay, all right, here's a tar ball. I went, oh, but it's a binary. I don't want that. Give me source code and compile it for my Spark or some other system. Okay, here's some source code. And I accidentally stumbled into it. Lo and behold, today, my work on that software that's gone on is now running in hundreds of millions of devices around the world. And most of those devices now use CPUs. So ARM, the company I work at, we design intellectual property. Reality is that almost everyone in the room here is not our customer directly. You don't buy stuff from us. The people who buy stuff from us are worth billions and billions of dollars, and they make chips. So who here is using an ARM CPU in their daily life? Who here thinks they're not? Okay, all right, reality is everyone uses it whether you like it or not. And our customers really demand open source. That is what almost all the things we make run these days in most volume. We build everything from, we design everything from server level chips. So reality is that one of the top 500 supercomputers in the world is in fact ARM based. All the way to everything in your pocket. And it all runs at least on a base of open source. ARM has over the years changed. Very early, it didn't know about open source and didn't care and wasn't interested. Today it has changed to the point where it was about a month or so ago, we announced some new features in one of our new ARM64 architectures. I think it was 8.38255. I keep getting confused which it is because I hear about them all day long. But it was the new P-auth extensions. Literally within days we drop patches for the kernel. And it's at the point where that feature in the CPU isn't even going to hit silicon for another two years and there's already patches in the kernel to support it. So, and then that's not even the product getting into your hands. So reality is it's probably another six months after that. At companies like ARM, open source is so fundamental that we do work so far in advance of you even getting it because that's what our customers demand and that's what the right thing is to do. And that's how deeply embedded open source is in many companies. I will put an asterisk next to that. There's certain parts of ARM that don't believe in this. I don't particularly want to talk about them today. But my division, which is the central engineering open source division is one of the largest in ARM and it's been growing steadily over the years and it's really important because it's important to customers, it's important to the OEMs who build devices and it's an important right thing to do and I don't think there's any stopping it. Open source is an unmovable unchanging force that is going to eventually take over everything. The only question is when do you go and join the party and how effectively do you join the party when you do? Thank you very much and Bunny, you didn't have the chance to say anything yet but I think your perspective is very different because you're not working in a big company. I think you have more like ideas and you just like start them like a customer years ago, I think, but you continue this. So what's your, what's your impression of that? Like where do you see opportunities for openness and what's the take for you on it? Why are you so excited to work in the open? Sure, interesting. So I'm glad you asked us that not all ARM is on the open train because at some point in time, I was gonna say like at some point in time I was feeling we were gonna have a big sort of war and court with ARM and their patents in the open hardware space and architectural stuff because it's been impossible to make an ARM open hardware implementation with all the patents and everyone's accumulating patents and patents and patents and now it's like risk five is somewhere like oh please don't bomb me out of existence and so we'll see how that goes. So in terms of like open, I guess there's maybe the two points I'll try and make it quick. One is that from the standpoint of hardware there's a saying that someone has that any technology that's sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic or something like that, right? And the problem is that when technology becomes magic it becomes religion, right? So you already have these sort of ritualistic things like genius bars that you go to where you bring like your sacrificial device which has your whole life in it and it's not working, you pray to the god or the genius bar and maybe he gives you a thing back to you that you can then get but the thing is it's actually, these are all made by humans at some point in time. It's not like some divine being named Steve Jobs had just like popped into existence and it was incomprehensible to mere mortals, right? But there's an advantage to these companies are trying to convince you that's the case because they make a lot more money selling these things to you instead of letting you repair it yourself, upgrade the battery, fix the battery, let you use your phone for another five years or something like that, right? So to me, a lot about openness is just like you don't have to be a hardware person. Necessarily, I don't insist that everyone has to do that but you have to not feel trapped by your hardware. So if you ever want to hit find the exit to the room you feel like you had too much of the cool you gotta leave the religion. Like here's the trail of breadcrumbs you can pick up take yourself to a freer place if you ever need to get there, right? That's kind of open lease at this point in the harder space is just getting there to that point. We don't have the ability in open heart yet to fully build and replace an open source phone for example but at least we have the trail of breadcrumbs to maybe get you there at some point in time. The other thing that I guess I would bring up from the like the open side that is really helpful is that it's a really, because when you can have conversations about the technology we're building you can actually do very quick validation with the community that something's gonna be there. So like I really like Mitch's story about like in the TV be gone is the thing I built for myself and it turns out like 15 years later I'm like building in people's to one. You could put a room full of Harvard MBAs together and have them think for like a month and a half and they would never come up with this idea because it's just something that you would come up with and then validate with the community it's not obvious to these people, right? And so there's many classic examples in the world like you know for example, Betamax versus VHS. How many people here on the top, how many people remember Betamax and VHS, okay? Yeah, it sort of dates you at a certain age. So there's back in the day we used to have these tapes that we used to record videos on and we actually had to go to stores to rent videos and you didn't download them online and there are two formats one was called Betamax and one was called VHS. Betamax was by Sony and VHS was by JVC. And Betamax, Sony had put a lot of money in and developed it and they made a very close format and they wanted to sell it and they had a lot of really smart people put it in and they were very proud of the fact they had high quality and it was a compact format, right? And then JVC actually almost wanted to kill the project inside a couple of engineers on the inside like just in the dark of the night like pushed the product out and JVC says, well you know, we don't know but let's license it to some other people and see what happens, right? And then RCA picks it up and they say like actually what we hear the market wants is a four hour run time, right? So we're gonna do a mod on the standard to do a four hour run time. It turns out people didn't care about the quality of it. They wanted to record the whole Super Bowl, right? Without having to swap tapes. That was like the really important thing at the end of the day was to be able to record full broadcast and have run time. And so then RCA made the improvement and went back into the license pool and then that got licensed to like dozens and dozens of other manufacturers and beta was just like killed by that, right? So at the end of the day you can be a really big corporation with a lot of like insight and a lot of marketing and a lot of push to get maybe to your B2B initiatives because you know one customer you can know them really well. But knowing the consumer market, knowing that TV be gone is going to be a thing that people are actually gonna want is not something that's obvious. So having this open conversation and being able to get that validation early on, build the community and have the community make improvements, check them back in the base and then build them out further is like a really important part of that process. So I think we are at the end of the panel. So initially the idea was that we share about the future but I think we already shared about the future. We see in what direction we are heading on all sides. But we have still three minutes and I would like to open the floor to a question here from the audience if there are questions. Yes, Mishari, okay. Is this open source? Okay, so thank you. It's been a very interesting panel. Now what I've been seeing as a trend is that yes, some things are getting more and more open. We have open source Linux getting embraced by big companies, IBM, Microsoft, et cetera, et cetera. But at the same time, I feel that it's, I don't know if it's just me but I feel like it's getting almost schizophrenic. Because on one hand we have like this, then it getting embraced and the open source being embraced. And on the other side we have cloud providers which are creating closed ecosystems and patents and even companies like Facebook which are completely closed but actively involved in open. So I'm wondering is the net result, are we getting more open or is it actually a red herring where the openness is hiding the fact that we are all getting driven to a closed ecosystem that we will be very difficult to come out of? Any takers? I think there is an interesting sort of, you bring up a good point and there's an interesting question that's gonna come up in terms of the algorithms versus the data, particularly machine learning. The actual code that runs the models and inference engine is not as valuable as the data sets themselves, right? And so you can have open license code and we can all fork it all sort of stuff but we can't get access to the massive data sets to train these engines, it's gonna be worthless, right? And so there is a bit of a danger that we are walking into and also you can have plenty of open source infrastructure but then the user accounts and the data that's inside the cloud inside Google Drive whatever is really where it's at. And these are the real things. And so as a kind of a community you do bring up a very big concern that I have is that maybe we are just playing into some larger corporate strategy to just leverage our ability to help build up their word chest and they just accumulate data, users and they just put a different license on some things that's not functional through a sort of a quirk of the system and then we end up essentially weaponizing an ecosystem that we're hoping to demilitarize at the end of the day. Can I make a comment too? Very good point and I think I am optimistic that as I said open source will win out in the end and we are moving in very, very strongly at the moment in the right direction. For my future forward looking bit I was going to say that open is really, really important but privacy is also very, very important and at the moment we're going through a phase where we've got companies collecting massive amounts of data centrally. We're building massive machine learning models. We're spending weeks and weeks of multiple GPUs to build these models and that's where the power kind of lies at the moment. I think we're slowly starting to see the pendulum swinging with regard to privacy back into the right direction to regain our privacy and it's great to see Tim Berners-Lee's project around regaining privacy and regaining the internet but the models that we spend hours building we are also now starting to try and share that as well. So our computer vision models we saw the IBM AI, what was it called? An area to publish AI models. We're developing similar stuff for publishing pre-built AI models and to try and share that openly. So building the outcomes as well as the open source that drives those outcomes. Yeah, so just a quick one, I represent a corporation. From an IBM perspective, I think what from an IBM perspective is that open source, like you said, it is the future. And companies like IBM look at our open source as a future for ourselves as well. So if you look at all the platforms that I mentioned, there's cloud, AI, a blockchain, a quantum, right? Everything is based on open source or open technology. And this is a core part of our strategy. It is fundamental to IBM's innovation, right? And I think that alone tells you that when you look at open source, most organizations, when you look at the core platform, the plumbing is where I think open source will be a critical difference. Where IBM comes in and where we try to add value is on the place of the peripherals where we had the last mile incorporated, the last mile capabilities around what an enterprise needs, right? From a scalability, from an availability, a reliable perspective, right? That's where we add the value, right? But at the core of it, right, it is going to be open source in the future. I believe that. Okay, this is the future. It's, we hope it will go in this direction. It all looks like it. But like, we'll find out, right? The future is arriving. So I would like to, I think there are many more people who would like to talk to you. So would you be staying here for a little bit more time so people have questions? They can also come to you. I hope you're here anyways, I guess, right? Graham, you have a talk also in the AI track, yeah? So you'll be available for further discussions and casting. You will also be here and giving a talk in the hardware track on Saturday, as well as Bunny. We'll see you again in the hardware track. So more opportunities to catch up and get together. I think we couldn't answer all the questions. There's much more, as always, right? But it was very, very interesting here. It was a very nice panel. So thank you very much to all the panelists. And thank you very much for joining us.