 Hi guys, welcome back to my youtube channel. So as you know and as I had promised I am back with an interview session I have taken this interview of a very dear friend, but he is also one person who gives the real picture He's helped me too much to an extent that I have got to know some legal insights and real insights from him but he's also a very hard-working person placed in one of the leading firms here and This whole journey of him being a foreign trade lawyer as he was also senior in my law college back home but I didn't know about it until we met her and Everything that I think he says it's his own opinion. So people can you know think of a different Have a different opinion, but that's that's about him and that's what all the interview is about start first Let me introduce you about sorrow sorrow is the person who was working as a law clerk He's from Delhi. He migrated in 2018 and he was working in litigation for seven years I think with some top-notch lawyers and with her high court Delhi high court and the Supreme Court practice He left everything behind and made a decision to come here So I think a lot of you people can relate with him and can get some real insights He is also now placed in Atkinson law as a associate and That is his website and everything about him So let's start the interview without wasting much time and you know what to do You have to like share comment and subscribe Hi, Soram. How are you? I should and I'm good. How are you doing? So as you know many YouTube channel sugar away, which is you know all about the real picture that we are going to give and I know you as a person who's grown in front of me and like I've seen your professional growth So I wanted my audience to know that what kind of Journey it has been for you whatever everything so I have sorted some questions Joe Logan and what's the question I'm going to you know collaborate them and ask you in just about 20 25 minutes And thank you for sparing this time So let's start No problem. Thank you. Thank you for having me first and I'm ready to answer as many questions as you want to and Let's see With you after my W is this video is posted over a touch me, you know, they'll get in with on LinkedIn So let's a question that I want to ask and I think I know it But I want everybody else to know it that how your journey has been till now from where you started and where you have reached everything Okay, so as you know that every internationally clean lawyers journey start with the assessment process, right? We eagerly wait for the assessment to be completed for by the NCA Then you get the result and they assign you the subjects Unfortunately, I was assigned eight subjects where as I know that most of the people like 90% of the people Assign only five subjects to to complete their NCA process and I landed in Canada in January 2018 I remember last week of January 2018 and in April 2018 I took my first constitutional exam because I have no queue at that time like what this Loyal thing is about and I just I was just going with the flow. I would say so it was a bit difficult for me because There was no no one to guide me and there was no I was I was like a Kind of an introvert person. So I had no access to any of the Facebook groups or the WhatsApp groups or the NCA. I I I didn't have access to your your infamately V logs also So I thought that I take one step at a time and then then I started writing my Constitution exam then I wrote my other other remaining eight exams Means long story short by the April 2019 I was able to clear all my eight NCA exams now the only thing that bothered me at that time was finding a job In the legal market as you know, I was a litigation lawyer back home in Delhi and especially when you practice in Delhi It has its own charm. So it is very difficult. It was very difficult to come out of that A charm of being a lawyer there So I I started applying everywhere for for legal assistant position for lawless position for paralegal or for anything anything that that was related to To the leader to legal or law field I remember I wrote one of the law firms that I'm ready to work in a law firm Even as a type is if you want me so but I was not receiving any response from anywhere There was no hope. There was always rejection and what I thought is like what I observed at that time is that People are the law firms are only considering people who have either Canadian education or the Canadian experience So that is the most valuable thing that they are looking for and no one is letting in the internationally paying lawyers or I'll say foreign paying lawyers because and and they are right I do not blame them because it is their system, you know That they want they want to keep it running rather than spending time on training a lawyer from another jurisdiction They want someone ready to keep the keep the machine moving, right? So I Was fortunate enough to get a chance to to be interviewed with a law firm called Kalingam law firm and the lady Miss Karen Kalingam. She interviewed me. She took my transcript. She she asked me to write a sample writing piece She means what not you can't imagine Sharon I was I was applying for a lawless position and I was thinking that She is going to kill me or as if I'm applying for any senior associate position and Fortunately, she liked me and she hired me. So the moment she hired me. I was very happy about that Okay, my law. I got a job in a law firm and oh, I have an experience of seven years back home And I think this local job will be easy for me, but no the real real truth is going to be uncovered now So the moment I saw their filing system the moment I got Accustomed to their law firm practice. I observed that it is totally different It is totally totally different of what we used to do back home I I had an experience of filing from the MM code to the Supreme Court of India Procedure the Canadian procedure the Canadian the way of filing the way of maintaining files is totally different which which is like I would say it is totally different because proceed really challenging and any lawyer will get a shock Any lawyer will be in a shock to see the system. Oh, my where is my ten years? I saw my seven years practice going down in the drain. Yeah, so that was that was more challenging for me And it hits your confidence as well I would say the journey is not easy even if you clear the NC exams, which I don't think so that they are but they're they're not difficult at all Right. They're giving you the opportunity to opportunity to write exams with an open book. Whereas we are back home We are used to write exams, which you know We used to remember the sections and we used to put them in the paper, but here everything is open They have more their approach is More on a factual base like they they want you to understand things rather than mugging up things and vomiting out in the writing in the paper So so the journey journey was difficult plus I had my wife. I had my child your lifestyle drops and And you feel ashamed to tell your friends back home that you're working as a law clerk because they won't understand What a lot of position here means they will think oh, he's like our Munshi in the law firm. Okay, so So Assistant and law clerks who are actually doing running the law offices here Right, they have they they're they are more responsible. They are more professionals and they assist lawyers in what not manner I will say so I gave I gained immensely with that law firm. I will say that I was there for almost two years and And The kind of learning I gained there in two years as a law clerk I'm telling you I thought that I have wasted my seven years in practice This is this is I'm in Canadian perspective I have not learned in my seven years of practice back home what I've learned here as a law clerk in two years I don't know what what is what is inside me that that is a you know Pushing me to say this sentence, but this is so so you can analyze the Complexity or I will say the simplicity that this That lies between Indian Indian prospect and the Canadian prospect. I'm not saying that any country has its Indian law is bad and they are not procedurally like I'm saying that it is totally different So so we call ourselves so called internationally trained lawyers But that internationally trained experience, you know is is sometimes you will see that it is of no use here in Canada Thereafter, you know, I wrote my in April 2019. I wrote my I got my certificate of qualification and By that time I was registered in the lawyer licensing process So I appeared for my barista and solicited exam which was scheduled in June 2019 And I'm telling you I proved both of the exams in one go and I was fortunate Yes, and I was fortunate enough to do that in one go just because I had an experience working as a law clerk I know how this losses law firms function here the law society what the law society's role is how we should maintain our files and These exams are all about them. They're all about procedures. Yeah, they're not asking you to apply or something like They're not asking you to show your drafting skills. They're not asking you to show your Oratory skills in the exam. They're just asking you to be procedural and to show your procedural knowledge and how and your professional responsibility and So yeah, it is it is difficult. It does it to the transition phase is always difficult. So But but but everyone gets through whosoever is hard-working and Essentially pursuing it everyone gets Having said that I would like to know that right now you are an associate with a firm Which is a downtown go farm and they I think they are the they have hired you as the first Indian lawyer So, how does that make you feel and the whole journey about it now that we know your journey But how does that position and that kind of effort and hard work that you put in make you feel Okay, so I will tell you that that is also not an easy position to get even if you Google like any While I was working as a law clerk. I was I was in touch with many other law firms, right? because so so out of curiosity I will tell you it's funny what out of curiosity whenever I used to receive a Letter or any correspondence from any other firm. I used to Google them and See who who lawyers who what kind of lawyers work there trust me with all the big firms that so-called downtown I never came across a person who is an NCA candidate and who is working there without having any Canadian education like some people have done either LLM from Osgold or University of Toronto Or some people are born in what up here or some people of Indian origin I'm not saying I'm the only one of the Indian origin, but There are very very few people in top firms if you will Google today, also you will not find any International lawyer directly going into the big big top law firm without experience. Yeah, yeah Even if you have an experience or not so So it is it is it was a difficult Journey so my my mission was like my I was always dreaming whether I will get into that kind of firm culture Or I will learn that wherever you apply you they have a requirement that Downtown experience is a must and it will be considered as an asset I'm telling you when they said that when they say that in the Requirement that it is considered an asset that means they are looking for the asset. They are not just suggesting you They are just they are they are not just telling you They just want that they just want that and even when I applied in this law firm At Kingston so they didn't ask much about my back home experience They were impressed with my back home experience, of course But what the thing that Clicked them is that I have a work I have worked as a law clerk in in a Canadian law firm that matters most so I'm telling you the It is always difficult to find first job Once you have the first job you have your foot into the door and then you can then it all depends upon your Hard work and your dedication Somewhere or the other but I have also seen that and I always say that that your graph goes up Right Right. Yeah, there's no look back. See see this is a beautiful country and things are things are Much much more settle here. We came we come from the system where we have a complex system of complex System of practice like right Judges don't give a damn what you do if they throw the files on face of the lawyers lawyers are being degraded here It is totally professional decorum. Even you have to match that Decorum in the office. Also, you will see seniors are not hanging out with juniors or Miss it is a complete professionalism and that is what we call a cult we call I think culture and shop that all lawyers or anyone you say you will feel that I'm I have cleared my exams here. I've done this. I've done but no one is giving a damn about it, right? a person next to me next to me is a is a is a Is a is a is a lock like I will say and still he's been distracted more than I am So here this in this country if you're coming with the charm that you you are loyal kind of thing Then then I'm sorry, then then yeah, you you have it you will gain it eventually, but you will have to work Yeah, and that's the real picture that I was talking about. Thanks. Well, that is that is a real picture and money money doesn't come Your fortunes are not going to burst and you're not getting money like the moment you're caught to the bar The real struggle starts after that. I always say that in India also I told everyone that law is the most easiest degree To procure and the most difficult profession to practice and this stands all means my as far as my experience is Yes, this this was valid in India also and this is valid in Canada. Yeah, there's so many challenges while practicing. You will see there The system everything is software based you have to build for your time and you have to be reasonable to your clients. You have to Explain the court. Sometimes there is a situation that you have to explain the courts about the hours and Your clients your clients can File claims against you. You have to take those precautions as well. So there is a lot of Lot of procedures and procedures and Requirements that a lawyer should do should should follow here Okay, one of the things that we've discussed in the past and Let's do that again today is that we see, you know, I know we all know so many people who get out of law school and open up Their own real estate practice their own immigration offices So, what are your thoughts on this that private practice with of is a corporate office job or a little law firm job in litigation anywhere? But what are your, you know thoughts on this my experience is that I have a lot of friends who have opened their private practice It is the practice here is not charm at all. You know, it is very taxing and especially if you're alone And if you don't have any experience my advice, this is my personal advice This is not to offend anyone But I think that unless and until you have three or four years of experience Working with any other firm any firm in in Canada Maybe it may be any in any field you want to go I would advise that don't go for your private practice. Don't rush yourself because Sometimes what happens? I know that I know some people open. I I'll send you to their To their courage I will say but it is very taxing I will say and until unless you know the procedures and in three cases of The Canadian Canadian law, I don't know it means I don't have that confidence to run my own practice in Canada even after Having the experience of almost three years now So because there's lot to learn and once you learn all the increases and all the requirements That that you need to fulfill to run your practice Then you can you can open your practice and you can flourish Plus it is also difficult to retain the clients Sometimes the clients are you know Here here being a lawyer is also a responsibility if you Send a letter to a ministry. I'm telling you you have that authority with you And if you tell something in the court the courts Will consider will have bait in your whatever in will consider that your Letter or your if you're saying something it should have some bait in it. So that way it should come Only when you have the experience and knowledge that okay client is not fooling around sometimes clients may say Okay, sort of I I had an experience where clients said okay X person has you know Hit me please find the complaint against him or Mention this in the affidavit that he has hit me. So I asked her Ma'am, can you show me your police report? Have you taken any action? Yeah, I've taken action against them There is a police report this and that so I asked for the police report and there was no none Trust me and that incident never happened. But even if I'm not saying that you you act as a Investigator but you have to verify because tomorrow what will happen these clients will turn up against you and they will say Hey, I never told my lawyer to do that that and he's the one who mentioned Even when I was suggesting that not to do so. So law society may ask you for the conferring documents for those things. So that is that is how you know, we as a New lawyers can be in trouble Some some clients can make us like we are vulnerable to some of the clients who are who don't have good intentions So those are the precautions that needs to be taken. But Again again, I will say that you will learn this only if you will have the experience otherwise If you're new some people are doing great job being new and means I personally feel that you should have an experience. I will I will say that Experiences in mother of knowledge. I will say right on purpose and especially in our profession and especially with the law society having such strict rules right Law society is not you know, even when you see when you see the trainings or you will go to Bcpo, you will attend the cpd hours. They will say that they are with us They are with us, but they are there to protect people also So even if any anyone find it no matter how hard you work after a client even if a client files are complained against you They they will ask for so many documents from you that you will and if you're not maintaining your files properly Then you will be in trouble. So that is why I believe that one should always strive for Having a work experience before launching their own practice Completely agree with this that hands-on experience is such a Sign up or known if you say in the language, it is so important And especially with the law society having such stringent rules for lawyers and the way they regulate lawyers because in the end They are for public interest, right? Which is good, which is not bad But ethically we have to be so careful with sorts of small small things that they can be auditing and everything on you as a lawyer So you have to be so careful Okay, so my next question is that you know you immigrated with your whole family like I came here alone I got married later and Invested we like you pick some responsibility And but for you, I'm sure it must have been a very taxing thing the whole challenge of Coming from there and coming here financially emotionally mentally leaving your family back home and getting your obviously immediate family So, how did you overcome all of that? See when you have to do something, you know you you my wife my wife was always interested I'm telling you honestly that my wife was always interested to move to canada There we were having a beautiful life and everything was going smooth But for the sake of you of our daughter's future means it was a decision like it's a decision No one can compare you take on your own right and there's something in you that That provokes you to take the decision. So my wife was the season for this and The moment we came here even she realized that there are expenses That that are lined up here and you know, you cannot run your house It's not a joke. You cannot run out run your house on minimum wages You have to think twice before buying everything So it is it is quite challenging and frustrating as well, especially when you establish yourself I'm saying in this you were in the state of establishing yourself and your graph Was going to put it back home. So You you I just work hard. I never took an off in two years also while I was writing my nc exams I will tell you serene that I didn't I didn't took any off I'm this interview is not about boasting myself like what I did or you know, why I did it is it is about telling That how how we meet those challenges how you should be prepared to do anything when you land in canada You should be prepared to work in factories if even if you drive uber if you drive Even work in restaurants and There is nothing wrong in that right, but you every I think everyone every Other person you will talk and who is into the process of this nca or loyal licensing I see a lot of force on linkedin as well that they're not getting their legal job I will say that I was fortunate enough that I missed it carrying turning them. She was I'm you know obliged to her that you know, she gave me the opportunity to interview But the interview also for one job you will see there are 400 applications after one job And you're you're competing with the people who are who in your mind Are more talented than you who have this canadian Education they have canadian accent. They're born in water pairs. So your competition is with them plus your own peers from back home So the competition is cut throat here. I'm telling you But you you need to manage and you need to you need to plan well You need to have the finances to take care of at least one year I will say that you should have money in your hand that even if for one year I will not work in Canada. I will I'm going to survive and in one year. You should work so hard that You it should change your it should change your time by you know practicing or or by or by landing in a good job So it was challenging specially with daughters But the hand what to the need and government who gives all kinds of benefits to people who can who are not earning well And who's who who are really low who really belong to low income group? But yeah, there are challenges and we all face them and you will feel you will feel this You will have the same kind of feeling you had when you graduated from your law school Like you you were studying you were looking for a job and no one you were getting rejections from everywhere We you Time heals everything. So we forget as we move on we forget like I I forgot after five six years I forgot that I have Ever applied for an interview to a certain place because you know, I was I was picking up and you know People tend to forget everything. So it's like but but yeah, this they these two years These two years make me realize that yes, we have fresh graduates forget what I've done back home forget whatever Things were in our favor, but let's start from a fresh only that if you have that zeal that will keep you Keep you absolutely. That's right So So and I've made a question as so according to you same circumstances if somebody has similar kind of circumstances or somebody may you know Everybody's unique. Everybody has different circumstances to emigrate or not But according to in general who you think should emigrate and who you think should not emigrate So any if you have any kind of opinion and you can throw some light on that So we we are talking in the lawyers perspective, right? Which lawyer what what kind of lawyers should you emigrate or what kind of lawyer should not emigrate? So I have done all the calculations and you know Me and my wife keep discussing this that you know, whether we have made the right decision or it was wrong Or this and that trust me. We are we are here from last two and a half years now God has been kind to us But today also we discussed that whether our decision was right or not I think every immigrant has that question, you know Because we we forget our human memory is very short. We forget our old problems that you know pushed us to shift to canada So my simple my simple Calculation is that people who have their own house in delhi or wherever and who are earning 10 to 12 lakhs a year Should never think of migrating to canada and if you're thinking about you know that that I want to make more money and I will I will live a lavish life. You will have that but the kind of struggle you should be ready for putting in that kind of Efforts in that right if you should calculate you also that whether you're ready to give another Six to seven years to your life and then make it big or you you stay wherever you are and you earn enough money and Come here as a tourist enjoy the world, you know visit places and you know, just enjoy your life and Do it by yourself in india because india itself has a lot of potential I truly believe that you can flourish in india as a lawyer if you're a good lawyer There is no depth of mind, but here it is very difficult The competition is cutthroat and people will not let you in easily Now the big firms are you know, they have their own criteria Until unless you have an experience of two three years four years five years. They are not going to take you or And the packages are not too much attractive plus the tax rate in canada You end up paying the more you earn the more you end up paying If you want like if you will if you will earn like hundred thousand dollars a year You will end up paying 45 40 to 45 percent in taxes So if you're if you're thinking money-wise and this I what my my perspective is and that this is not the country to make money Immediate money at least immediate money. I will say yeah lawyers do make money lawyers have much more respect but you should be prepared to To you know, put those kind of years that it demands to reach there But again, I will repeat that if you have a good package if you're in a good law firm I see people migrating from good law firm and you know Working and struggling here as a legal assistant law clerks But this sometimes these things can you know kill your I'm not Degrading those jobs, but sometimes these positions can really kill your confidence and bring bring anxiety and stress in your life Which is not required once you are back home. We have our own problems, but No country is perfect my friend. No country is perfect here. Also. We have whether you have seen snow storms Only I will sit two or three months of the year are good that we are happy and jolly otherwise everyone is stick to their houses and yeah Means it is it is it is their choice. But again, I will say that you know, the people who have good law firm jobs and People who are more than five to six years of experience should not think of migrating and people who are unfortunately Not doing good or they're not getting ahead or they're not Moving forward in their career. I know I know I know lawyers here who are Despite having you know, despite being talented and you know being being much more talented than you and me are Some other any of the lawyer from the Supreme Court or high courts are but still they are struggling to meet their daily needs because there is there is Less opportunity available to them. But if you you those people should immediately think of migrating because this country is full of opportunity and even if you don't if you do even if you don't excel as a lawyer you can Make yourself life better insert in doing by doing anything and ultimately you can work towards your goal and become So let's conclude by the last question in the end. I just want to ask you What is your recommendation to the n-flag candidates to all the lawyers? My recommendation to the profession is that Uh It is it is it is difficult It is it is not what in our mind is like in my mind trust me in my mind too When I when my wife used to tell anyone that okay, my husband was a lawyer back who many Who lawyers make money here lawyers make money here lawyers make money here. There is no minting of money Then the competition is so tough. You don't get jobs easily But there is always a hope. We all live in hope and And I will not say that give up but keep trying keep pushing. I know that whosoever is in the process I'm a person of average intelligence. I will not say that I was a super intelligent 99% kind of I am a person of an average intelligence. Whosoever is in the process can make it true, right? But you need to have patience and perseverance and you should you should be prepared to To face the worst some people Some people, you know, don't get job and they launch their own practice on their own and they get successful People like me keep saying on the website, but they are launching the practice and they are they are they are doing wonderful. So So It is if if you if you have it in you the canada If you have it in you, I will send canada have it for you. So and that is simple So everyone everyone will will get through the process process is not that difficult at all It is it is a matter of time. It is giving you an opportunity to You know in seven eight thousand dollars you spend and you become a lawyer in canada whereas look at the canadian Canadian kids or canadian People who are striving to become lawyers. They spend seventy eighty thousand, you know, they take loans and Put them back and we are fortunate, you know that I know back home We don't spend much in the law schools, but hey, our fees are like 100 ones in hundred thousand of dollars I had an incident where one of my friends told me oh, you guys are lucky You don't have to do the article shape your articles get exempted easily You don't have to pay hundred thousand dollars towards law only You you just pay this and I thought that what was the reason she was telling I Then I analyzed that she was right and she was frustrated. So people have some people will have That kind of mindset for you also That you know these people come from from abroad and they they do it easily because everyone Everyone's journey. Do everyone look so easy? Yeah, nothing Okay, sort of thank you so much for the wonderful insight. I think Include this interview now and and I I want to say that this is all my personal experience and personal On my blog I don't want to discourage anyone but this is the this is the reality that And this is all the challenges about So guys, I hope this whole thing was useful for you guys. I hope you got some real insights from sorrow He is the one person who's worked really hard and I wanted to keep up with the real picture Is the rule right now you have to evaluate and make your own decision But everybody's entitled to their own opinion as you know But you should evaluate for yourself and I'm going to you know Put more interviews more such interviews which give you a real picture about the Canadian legal market I hope you like it and if you like then hit the like button because the much you like I think the much recommendation it gets me into which is helpful again for us to spread some awareness And thank you. Stay home if you have any other questions put in the comment section And I'm sure that I can you know, take them up in the next legal interview series. So bye