 It is that time and I am excited because one of our favorite guest and our favorite topics is here today and if you didn't notice that by the purple you do now so welcome back to another episode of the nonprofit show excuse me, and we continue to talk about fundraising and their cause selling education system. Thanks to our presenting sponsors as always we start every episode yes thank you Tony thank you Julia. We always start our episodes by extending our sincerest gratitude to each of our presenting sponsors. Without them, we would not be celebrating our 300th episode on Friday. I cannot believe it so thank you also to fundraising Academy that you see in the presenting sponsor lineup as well. And again we are just so thankful to have all of your support and thankful as always for Julia Patrick joining me today. Julia is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I get to have fun and serve alongside Julia. I'm Jared ransom, also known as the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group. And as I already mentioned we have Tony bell back with us. Tony is the senior director Office of Program Administration at the National University Welcome back Tony. Thank you so much Jared that rolls off your tongue so easily now it's just, there's a lot in there but it's always such an honor to be with the two of you and, and just to collaborate in this way to add value to the professional development space that exists within the nonprofit sector the conversations are always just engaging and thought provoking. So it's really an exciting space to be in and thank you for creating that space. Not just for me and the fundraising Academy but for all of the speakers that you have that join you on the nonprofit show and, and thanks to them for their willingness to share what they've learned, and their views on the sector with with your, your audience. You know, thank you for saying that because when we started this. That was one of our fears Tony was that we were like will people be honest and share and talk about this because in your community you are competing. And so we were like will people look at this and say oh I don't want anyone to know my secrets or the tricks to the trade, because you know I want to hold it all myself and so I appreciate you saying that. I think if we're going to kind of carry the flag of collaboration and collective impact. We can't, we can't operate that way. I mean I think we're all in this in this space, because we genuinely care about the well being of our communities, and that it to me comes first and foremost and I, I probably mentioned it before and I'm guilty of being a broken record many times, but I never think of the fundraising Academy as competition to anyone. You know there's lots of great organizations out there that are providing really valuable professional development to the nonprofit sector. I don't think of us as competition I always look at us as how can we be a value add to what is already being offered to to fundraisers. So I think that comes through in your whole approach of cause selling and, and as we get on to believe it or not, one of the last segments we're now going to be talking about eight. The cause selling wheel and if you joined us in the chili chat chat, I kind of witnessed to Tony that I've been looking through these weeks at my own skill set. And I've never been trained, but I've been fearless about asking and I've always enjoyed it. And I see where I've had pieces and where I haven't and where I needed things. And so really an interesting aspect to understanding how this works how you can jump in and jump out. Very, very interesting but today, we're going to be talking about something that is kind of the, you think after last time we spoke about the ask, and we're like, Okay, we've done it. Well, we're going to be talking about stewardship. I was just going to philanthropy never sleeps right so it's, it's a continuing, it's a continuing cycle and it, it may be step eight the last of our eight steps but it's certainly not you know it's, it's last but not least so to speak, in terms of value. You know, in some ways, I was thinking about this Jared and I'd love to get your feedback. I was almost thinking that maybe this should be the starting point in some way to say, This is what we're getting for this is where we're really trying to go. You know that is interesting because during these episodes and Tony, you know, teed and prime this up so beautifully thank you for that is we've talked so much about the job market and just our community at large and how retaining talent starts an interview process right so I really do think as you're saying, Julia there's so much commonality here because stewarding a donor starts the first minute you meet them, or they meet you. It's true and we said the same thing when we talked about the ask like you're preparing for the ask the moment you have you know when you have that first moment of truth with the potential donor and it's the same thing with stewardship. You are stewarding that relationship through every step of the cost selling cycle. You know you're thanking them for their time when they take the first call you're thanking them for their time when you know you have your first face to face again whether it's, you know sitting across the table from each other or enjoying, you know, a virtual connection like zoom. So I'm glad that you said that Jared and you know it's very true. Yeah, I love that and I think it even when I hear you kind of frame it that way it makes it even see makes it even become that more realistic. And natural, but this is kind of the shocking piece that I wanted to start with today, and I don't want to be a Debbie downer but we're renewal rate reality, only 50% of donors give a second gift. Yeah, and we were talking about that in the chitty chat chat and Jared was thinking as she's heard 40 to 45 and, and some of our references say 50 so I think you can say comfortable that it's a lot. Whether it's 4045 or 50 that's too many. And when we talk about, again, you know, 501 C three is a tax status not a business model. Think if you if you own a restaurant and only 50% of your customers were recurring customers. My goodness, you know, imagine the marketing budget you would have to have in order to keep your restaurant thriving and open so it's, it's a it's a tough statistic, but it is true that you know only 50% of donors give a give a second gift. And I would say that that probably holds firm now with you know the inclusion of giving through social media and digital engagement and folks that give right if, if a friend of mine on Facebook is promoting a birthday fundraiser for a nonprofit. You know, you can get in and make a 2025 sometimes $50 gift. And that's all they're ever going to see from me. Right. If there isn't some process in place to engage me beyond that initial gift. Right. Wow. So in the nonprofit sector, or, you know, in the US I think the number we references 1.8 million nonprofits in the US, and my, my brain immediately went to, well there's so many to choose from but then I think about my hairstylist there's so many to choose from, but I keep going back to her right mechanics there's so many to choose from, but we keep going back to them. So I really you know for me because I had this aha as as we were like literally just talking about this. So if we don't go back to the organization or to that service provider, we are part of that 50% that never, you know show up again or renew. That's scary. It's brutal and you have something else interesting. Tony to make this to hit this home even further and that is, it costs five times the amount of money to find a new donor, as it does to retain a donor. And absolutely. Shocking. Absolutely what just think about again as we as we look at the cost selling cycle. You've invested time in, you know, seven steps of the cycle to get to that point where you make an ask and get the donation so that now we're in, you know, in step eight. So, you know, imagine having to do that just over and over and over and over again, you know where every relationship every ask starts from step one. That's, it doesn't make sense and, and there's a similar statistic, you know in the for profit sector when we talk about talent and your staffing right if you lose a team member. It costs you up to five times as much to get another team member and get them back to that same level of performance as the team member that left your organization so you know we just again once you once you get a great team member. Once you get a great donor, you want to do everything you can to make sure that that you're retaining them. And I think that's something we're in the nonprofit space we fall down on that. So dramatically and we don't think of it enough. Well we do and when I coach with my clients I'm always talking about, well I do ask what is your donor retention rate and typically they'll say, Oh I don't know how do I calculate that right and so it's really not first of our front of mind which is a big because you know for for us we are stewards of people's money. So how we spend our philanthropic dollars really matters. So why wouldn't we want right to really maintain a steward and keep those donors that do give to us let's make them loyal donors that right through the cycle as well. Let's bring in some new constituents some new supporters, but let's really work to keep those that we have with us because that to me is the best way to help like steward and spend your philanthropic dollars. Absolutely. And we're going to talk even more about you know the value of retention. Perfect throughout our conversation. So give us you've got three keys to donor retention and I would love for you to share that with us because it might not be what we're doing or what we're even thinking about. Well, you know, I think when we talk about think like a donor. Well, the best way of doing that is to be a donor. Right so whether you're contributing, whether you're contributing to your own organization or to, you know, another organization that you're passionate about what the best way to think like a donor is to be like a donor and have the experience that a donor has, not only so that you can then borrow from the best practices that you're learning from being a donor, but you can also, you know, learn what you don't want to do. You know as a fundraising professional based on your experience, you know as a donor so really think like a donor, and even more so be a donor. So that when you when you're having these conversations especially earlier on, and the cause selling cycle, when you're in your needs discovery and you're talking about, you know, what does it feel like for you to be a donor and what gift have you given that excited you and, and how did the organization make you feel that you, you know you invested in, you know, you'll, you'll experience that firsthand. I love it. I think that is a great, great comment and wow the information that you can bring to the tenor of your discussion, when you've been a donor, amazing. Okay, say thank you like you mean it. We all say thank you, thanks. You know, so, so first of all, make sure you're saying thank you right so that there's a statistic out there that one in only one in four donors receive a thank you letter. And I can tell you that that's been my personal experience, even in the community that I've been working in philanthropy for the last 20 years. And recently, you know I gave to a number of organizations I think I gave to six organizations, and I received two thank you letters. And one of them was a form letter that might as well have said, you know, Dear, John Doe right I mean it was it was just it was the lack of personalization really just made it like not even worth the paper it was printed on really it could be super Frank. Yes, I'm curious Tony was it the same level of donation at all of these organizations. That's a great question, Jared, and that speaks to point number three here is to treat everyone like a major donor, but but going you know going back to say thank you like you mean it is making sure you're So, when I was working for a national nonprofit. It was not unusual after a major event and I'm talking you know galaxies and kind of stuff right to have 100 thank you letters that needed to go out. Yes, those were those were form letter. Those were form letters. I hand signed every single one. And I hand signed that and at a minimum hand wrote thank you. Yes. In the dead space, or if I really if I knew them really well it was like, you know you looked amazing, you know, or you know it was so good to see you or, you know just like little snippets that remind them. That I see them. Right. And there was a personal touch right like you can do form letters, and you can go that extra step like you just shared with us Tony, a thank you like anything handwritten. Thank you, you looked amazing so glad we got to catch up. Thanks for your continued support, all of that right and it's just like a few little few little more scribbles. It's a great value in that because I, you know, and I was the same way right I mean you put down that stack of 100 thank you letters in front of you and you're like really, but it reminds, but in a way it connects you with the donor again. Or you know there were a lot of times I'd go through that and I'd see someone and I'm like oh yeah I remembered I wanted to talk to them about X, Y and Z and so let me make a little note to follow up with them separately about that so there's so much value to that process, above and beyond writing your name, you know 100 times and and and printing your name and blue ink is not the same. Thank you. Thank you for that. Now before we go on treating everyone like a major donor so when I hear you talking about this, and you're saying you know your 100 letters of gratitude. It makes me think that you were doing this, and this piggybacks to Jared's question, right, no matter what the donation level was. So, and that, that that process was different, depending on the, on the organization that I worked with so for national organizations they tend to have a more tiered approach to their thank yous. They can afford to have a more tiered approach in some ways and I'm not saying that I embrace it and totally support it. I get it, but I get it for our smaller grassroots organizations. They don't have the luxury of ignoring a $10 gift or a $20 gift so you never know what the intention is of the of the donor that $20 may be really to test you to see how you respond to the donation. How do you contact me and I get anything, you know so that that $20 that you ignored could have been a million dollar legacy gift had you responded and given that donor a reason to want to stay engaged or to elevate their, their gift, one of the statistics I wanted to mention is that you know 45% of donors claim that once they receive the letter, after their first gift, you know they were willing to give it another gift 23% give a larger gift after a thank you so there's just so much value in that. Yeah, so part of this is the, you know we talk about response and follow up, but I would love for you to dig in a little bit deeper because you have the four piece of follow up which I love, and I think that's it's a great way to frame it up because it's easy to remember but it's still again, part of the cause selling piece it's natural. I think we can all like maybe blame David Letterman for some of this right because he would always have his top 10 something right so now all the time you see the top 10 the top five, and here's our top piece of follow up right so personalize passionate and positive. So prompt means you know, really best case, you know, best case scenario as soon as you get, get the gift, you make the time to follow up with your thank you. I realize, I, you know, I have led small nonprofits, when I started my career I worked with a not you know a nonprofit I worked for nonprofit where there were two of us. I get how bandwidth can sometimes get in the way of promptness. So think about, you know, tools that you can use to help you get there engage your volunteers in your follow up process if you you know if you have volunteers that you can lean on. I say no less than 48 hours. Okay, but that's just that's what I did just to give me grace. So those people tell you as soon as you get it. We kind of talked about personalized, you know, again personalized the follow up and the thank you as much as you can. Again, whether it's an additional handwritten note. I mean, you saw an article or a headline around a topic that you know this donor is passionate about you might want to print it or, or you know include tear it out of the magazine and include that. Passionate really is, you know, passion and positive are kind of the same in that it's the tone of the correspondence. You know, you're getting things like don't you think we're doing great work so any, you know, any words that that might, you know, have a negative connotation, even though, you know, within the sentence it's not meant to removing those, you know, those types of words. Yeah, so just, you know, exude your passion, maintain your positivity, speak to how their investment is going to move your mission forward, speak to how their investment is going to allow you to either sustain, which is very important, or grow, which can be very important. So, definitely the four P's of follow up prompt personalized passionate and positive. I mean, I'm going to throw a little bit of a spanner into this because. Oh, is this my curveball. Yeah, it is. Get ready or wait, but get ready. You have to take your knuckles. You know, my goal in life. And I missed it, I think was to learn how to do a pop up slide into second. I'm just witnessing. slide into second base. Oh, oh, okay. I was a soccer player. Oh, please. Okay, well we'll have to get back to the nonprofit show. Okay, this is my question. I am fascinated with the concept of using items as part of a thank you. So years ago, I had an opportunity to witness somebody who had to interview somebody who had signed the giving pledge. I asked them a series of questions I'm not allowed to to identify them. And one of the things that they said was that when an organization sends them something they want to be responded to quickly but if they're being sent something. It's really offensive. Unless it comes from like a client based action. And so they gave the example of they had given a $5 million gift to a children's oriented nonprofit, and they were given hand painted tiles from the clients, and they were completely moved by that. But like the plaques, and the other stuff it actually became negative. Yes, no, absolutely. So there are many, there are many donors that just, you know, investors that don't want you investing their money that way. You don't need another acrylic statue, or my for my book case. And those personalized gifts if you are leading a nonprofit where you have that kind of opportunity to engage the community that you're serving in that way. Trust me, I mean, the donor shared that story with you I guarantee you the donor shared that story with everyone they know. And anyone that came to their home or their office they showed them those tiles that were created, you know by the clients of that nonprofit. What's great about the cause selling cycle is when we look at the step for the needs discovery, when you're really you know you're having those conversations and you're getting to know your potential donor. And then uncover some of that information. Right when you're asking a question asking those questions, you know what was the, you know how did you feel the last time you gave them a major gift. And, and how was that gift appreciated in a way that that you you felt valued. And they'll share with you. Well they sent me you know they sent me this big acrylic statue and I didn't you know and I felt like that was a big waste of money. And I learned these things about your donors, you know through the call selling cycle so that you're, again you're not offending, you know, never in a million years would you think sending them a plaque is offending them but it may. That's right. And I love how you use the word appreciated how were you recognized and appreciated. That is the key my friend because that right there unlocks, you know your answer to this whole thing. Okay, so thank you for, you know, batten that one out of the park stick with the baseball metaphor. Well that was a darn good but if you. Exactly. I know it up. It's not so funny. Okay, exceptional thank you letters. Now, you made the comment this should really be exceptional thank you communication. Yeah, so you know so when I think about this and you know we're being very, very mindful of the fundraising Academy curriculum when we talk you know when we say things like exceptional thank you letter, but this really is about exceptional gratitude communication, whether it's written or oral communication. And you can see the first thing on here is personal there's a recurring theme here right. It's relationship driven fundraising. And so it needs to be personalized in order to be successful so an exceptional, you know, gratitude gratitude communication is making it personal. It does not ask for another gift. Right. It's not like, Oh, thank you for filling the tank of my car but now I got this little gas can can you fill that too. So, you know, it's, it's really all about the gratitude for that particular gift. Right. It's, it doesn't ask for anything else. It doesn't say oh by the way, we've got this other activity going on that you may be interested in funding. So let's the donor know, you know how the gift is used, and often signed by a prominent leader in the organization now that could be a CEO executive director it could be a board member. So you know be creative around that. And again, just, you know, be prompt, whatever prompt means to you. You know, and within your, your bandwidth. I think that's really important. Everybody want to remind you that we are working with Tony bell today at fundraising Academy cost selling education, our program that we've been running for several weeks now and we are now in phase three step eight. So this information is so important to us and we're, we're so excited to be able to bring this to our viewers that we're going to move in another 15 minutes. So, if you have to jump off on our live broadcast you can certainly pick this up on Roku Amazon Fire TV are archives and in many, many ways, but we as we are moving to the top of the hour I just wanted to let everybody know that that's kind of where we are. But we still have more to talk about and we have the big question, consistent donor follow up leads, create other opportunities. I mean, it's like we don't think of this I think. I mean, it's just part of the organic, you know, value if you will, of a good stewardship so a donor that feels committed and truly invested in your organization is going to offer referrals, right so consistent donor follow up leads to referrals. It leads to the retention of that donor and we've already talked about the value of that. It speaks to the reputation of your organization. This donor now is going to be your best brand ambassador. Right when it comes to letting other folks know their experience with your organization, and then of course maintaining the donor just maintains consistent revenue for your cause so definitely consistent donor follow up leads to those those four hours referrals retention and and and revenue and right Julia sometimes we forget that there's this again residual value to us having appropriate follow up. And I was going to take that back to your restaurant analogy right. Do you remember the last time you ate at a really good restaurant and like everything was superb and chances are you told people about it right and so you want your donors to say the same thing, whether it's the, you know, the hand painted tile. Wow, look at what I received, or it's something like you know, maybe they do a hike and it's a really fun height, and then they are going to start telling their friends, you know, or maybe even bringing them back into the fold to say, I think you should do this hike with me next year, let's do this together. And so all of that really builds. I just keep seeing this restaurant where it's like 50% capacity, and we want to have those 50% or more like return. So consistent donor follow up certainly leads to this. It's really important and again Tony when I hear you talking about this, it almost should be at the very beginning we should be aware of this because these are the kinds of tools that we need to be thinking about not just once we've sewn up the ask, it really needs to be part of our mindset is Jared always says our or return on relationship I mean, such an important aspect of what we don't talk about. Right. Exactly. You know, wow. Pardon me. Okay, now this is the elephant in the room as Jared says, and this might be these are the tough sales. What do you do to win back lapsed donors if we've got 50% of folks that could potentially leave us. It's also 50% that come back. Yeah, exactly. So when we're talking about lapsed donors we tend to when we think of lapsed donor. We tend to think of a donor over a longer period of time that that has not contributed to the organization. So what we talk about in the cause selling curriculum around lapsed donors is being very specific and very targeted, so that you know if you're if you're data mining. And now you've got this great list. Well, you know it's not great because they haven't given any money and you know in a period of time but you've got this robust list, or hopefully not a robust list. You've got a list of myself. You know, you've got a list. You've got a list of donors that have not given over a period of time. And again, being mindful of your bandwidth being intentional in your actions. You're pretty much starting at the very beginning of the cause selling cycle. You now you know that is step one that is your prospecting. The next list of lapsed donors is now your prospect list. And now you start moving them through the cycle you do your your Madden chart with them so that now you're breaking it down you've got your a list your B list your C list, and you can really start focusing on on your a list, but being you know being very intentional around, you know, your target audience as you start to engage lapsed donors. But I, I'm Jarrett, Jarrett's like this is like one of her hot buttons. My eyes are dancing. I know I, I do love it and I use this often, you know, again back to donor retention when I work with my clients what is your donor retention rate. The other thing is, you know, how many lapsed donors and when you say time, I typically like to ask that they pull three years of that lapsed time. Sometimes I'll go back to five right and that's intentional. And for me and we were talking about this in our chitty chat chat Tony is lapsed donors. It is such a wonderful opportunity when you have new board members. Right. Are you have a new staff and new CEO and new director development. This is the time that you really want to target specifically this hopefully not so robust list. You really want to take that opportunity to re engage these donors. Yeah, absolutely. And, and this this is one of those topics where, you know, I wish we had another two hours, because there's so much within our curriculum that really dives deep around the different strategies for re engaging lapsed donors and the different ways in which you approach and, and communicate with them. But, but there's lots of opportunity that exists when you invest the time and looking at the data and activating strategies to engage your lapsed donors. I'm sorry, Julia, I was going to ask now this is a curve ball not a button. If you like what's the statistic that we want to re engage our laps like if we have. I don't know like are we are we wanting to re engage 5% are we want like, I don't know the question. Yeah, I don't know that I've seen a formal statistic. I would err on the side of 20%. When if I'm going to go down this road, I want at least a 20% return on on this initiative. Got it. Good. That's a good target to set because yeah, that's a really, really good idea. Now you talk a lot about me or you mentioned that you have a lot of strategies for. Julia, I talk a lot in a good way, in a good way. But you know, I want to kind of find out what the unemotionally subscribed is. Yeah, so this speaks mostly to to folks that are that are on your, your marketing list. Right. So these are individuals that are getting kind of, you know, mass market communications. You know, from your organization. And again, hopefully if you're engaging in that kind of activity, you're taking the time to look at the data and review the results of those efforts. So, you know, unemotional is, is, you know, someone who receives your, you know, like your E blast, and doesn't do anything with it. Like they don't open it. They don't click on anything. They just ignore it or delete it. They don't unsubscribe. Yeah, you know, they got on your list and, you know, and they're just happy to see that you're, you know, they're, they're happy to see the name of your organization and knowing that you're doing things but that's all that, you know, all that they're going to do. And that can be as high as 30% of your distribution list can be folks that are unemotionally subscribed to your organization. So then you'd, you know, you have to think about strategies to engage them, you know, pull them out if they're not responding take them out of that mass distribution. Put them in something where maybe there's less frequency in your communication, because hopefully your communication plan is multi tiered. You've got some that are getting everything you've got some that are getting just a few things. And then you've got some that are only getting like this is our breaking news communication right. So thinking about you know whether or not you should move them to one of your other distribution lanes, where there's there's less frequency, putting them in their own lane and then send me you know, I've seen them like, you know, we've missed you will be the title or while you were away. Yes. So they're, you know, they're definitely, and I'm not a marketing or social media guru by any means but there are, you know, there are ways to engage those that are uneemotionally subscribed to your to your marketing lists. And the one thing that I'll say about marketing lists and and participant lists and our follow up with them. This is just one of the things that kind of gets at me a little bit and I was waiting for this opportunity to share it is, if I didn't attend your event, please don't send me an email thanking me for attending your event. Yes. Yes, so much this and I'm like, when I get those. Thanks so much for attending I'm like, but I didn't, but I didn't. But I didn't. So, you know, and again, and I say that with all due respect and total empathy, right because I know it can be a matter of resources and bandwidth and technology and all of those things. And then when we talk about relationship driven fundraising and personalization of our communication, you know, find a way to send that thank you for attending our event to the people that attended your event. That's right. And similarly, extra steps. Yeah, and similarly, similarly to what we said about the unemotionally, you know, involved, if, you know, then if I'm in your marketing list and didn't attend, you know, you sent me the invitation and I didn't attend it. Then send me a recap and says, you know, look what you missed or, or your being there would have would have added, you know, more sparkle to our evening right so and then give them a recap. And, and, and tell them to look forward to an invitation for next year. Right, right. I agree with you. And it seems to me that when you're looking at the, that moniker of unemotionally subscribed. That's a group that's perilously close to falling off, and never being going into that lapsed donor list that is then really hard to revive. Right, exactly. You know, so, yeah, to try and navigate away from that is is probably the absolute best thing that you can do. Okay, last but not least and we don't have a lot of time but we kind of want to get your ideas on crafting a donor journey plan. So much of this we've talked about is natural and it's, it's a relationship based, but when I think of this really you're saying this is really more of a defined strategy, and you should kind of have a plan moving through, right. Yes, well, and I think that that's, you know, again, it's no secret I love so much about the cause selling cycle we've said it a million times and our, our convenings together is gosh I wish I had this, you know, over 20 years ago when I first started in the non nonprofit sector had I been much more successful, had I had this journey plan which really in my opinion is the cause selling cycle. It really spells out for me you know step one step two step three step four, and, and as you get accustomed to the process of the cause selling cycle, when you meet individuals when you're re engaging laps donors, you'll know the cycle in the process, the journey so well that you'll know where they fit in into those steps, because you know re engaging doesn't doesn't always mean starting at step one. Gotcha. I may not have given to your organization you're seeing them on your laps donor report, but maybe it's someone you see every week when you're going to your weekly chamber events or you see them every week, you know, in a BNI zoom meeting or something right so there's the journey is different for every donor and where you engage them in that journey is going to be different, but I think the real key kind of pro tip takeaway there is have a journey. I love it. I love it. Well, this has been absolutely amazing and I witnessed to you on camera and off it exactly what you just said if I had had this early in my career you know 30 years ago starting to ask for money. Who knows what would have happened in the trajectory of nonprofits in my community would have been incredibly altered. Yeah, and like I said before Julia, you were doing all you were doing the majority we all were doing the majority of this right. We, it just wasn't packaged in a, in a meaningful way in a step by step way to where you know you could really just fully embrace it, and really again I love that use the word journey and really know where am I and my journey with this potential or existing donor. Amazing. Well, here's the cause selling cycle. Again, we just finished up face three, you know, the eighth piece of this. Now we have two more opportunities to be talking to Tony about this we're going to do one more episode where it's kind of like a recap where we put them all together. And then we're going to finish this up this is going to be really interesting. We're going to finish this up with kind of a Q&A. So if you've been joining us for all of these episodes or maybe just one and you have some questions. Send them our way and then we will put these all to Tony on our final piece fund raising academies not leaving us we have some more exciting opportunities that we're going to be working on together but in terms of this really concentrated effort on training and cause selling. I think this is just going to be a really exciting way to kind of wrap this up and and answer some of those questions that you might have. So I know that Jared and I always love it when we get questions Tony and so this will be a lot of fun. It will be I love that kind of stuff. It will be a lot of fun. Hey, here's Tony's information fundraising Academy cause selling education they do have some other pieces on their website. Other trainings that you can get to you can learn more about this. What we have done here is only scratch the surface there's so many more things that the cause selling program has so you wanted to make sure to check them out. Thank you Patrick I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself Jared ransom CEO of the Raven group. And we want to make sure that we thank fundraising Academy for really being bold and giving us this opportunity to explore things over these past weeks. It's been remarkable. And I want to thank our presenting sponsors without you we would not be here having this robust discussion with Tony bell, and wow fundraising events TV is coming up, make sure that you check that out with us. Okay, I'm really excited. I have to say Jared, I want to go out and ask. Yay, go do it. I'm loving it. I really am much more confident and emboldened about what I can be doing for my community. So I say thank you. Thank you very much. Hey everybody as we leave every episode of the nonprofit show we want to remind you to stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.